Neutral Creeps too strong

[coupnegre]

In on of my first games I was playing Swiftblade and in the mid stages of the game, I decided to farm some neutral creeps. I was lvl 12, with a (can't remember the HoN equivalent) Vladmir's offering and Vangaurd. This should normal be almost sufficient to 1v1 the first Kongor (Rosh). I had about 320hp, which I thought was sufficient and went to the shop whilst my hero did his thing. Next thing I see is I got pawned by the neuts. Decided this was crap and tried again, but no matter what I did, the creep that spawns the tornado just kept pawning and pawning me. Eventually I got him killed on lvl 15, but that's just insane. This is not an isolated incident though, as I have experience with quite variety hero's that the neutral creeps are just too strong.

This unfortunately forces the game into a lame direction where the only option you have until you pawn hard is, a) creep a lane with risk of a ganking or b) preemptively gank to get the level's and if your team doesn't play that pro, it's gg.

EDIT:
begin
{ Sorry for referring to the DoTA equivalents, here are the HoN item name: }
Vladimir's Offering := Abyssal Skull;
Vanguard := Helm of the Black Legion
end;

EDIT2:
begin
{ Oh, and, on another note also regarding the neutral creeps:
They're as intelligent as a rock. When you have another unit helping you neut, for instance Wild Soul and his little BooBoo. When you attack and Wild Soul gets the first hit, you can attack with BooBoo and just run Wild Soul around him, so that the creeps run in circles. They do not register that BooBoo is attacking them, but rather keeps on running after Wild Soul. This makes it quite funny and ridiculous neuting. Please revise. }
end;

[Zejety]

I had the same feeling when jngling with Legionair. This might relate to the fact that I'm not used to HoE but it felt noticeable harder.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Jungling is very hard now, something I feel is very bad for HoN in comparison with Dota.

Jungling is a part of the game, the neutral creeps were balanced so that you could earn about the same gold as the normal creep waves. Now they are both harder and give less gold (big creeps give about +75)

Legionnaire and War Beast severely hurt from this change.

[Glorify1]

This should normal be almost sufficient to 1v1 the first Kongor (Rosh).

Are you doing drugs? Vanguard and vlads is NOT sufficient at ALL to do rosh. You're not Ursa.

[coupnegre]

+1 hero for hp on level 12, definitely. But I have solo'd rosh with Juggernaut with Vlads+Vanguard+Treads+Yasha level 13... Was just trying to make a point...

[Glorify1]

Juggernaut with Vlads+Vanguard+Treads+Yasha level 13

Impossible.

[coupnegre]

Impossible.

Uhm, healing ward? Really?

[brn4meplz]

You guys think they are hard to solo? really? Wow they must have been a joke in DotA. I don;t find killing creeps all the difficult as pretty much any class. The only guy whose a problem is Kongor but at 20K HP's and a metric **** ton of regen i can understand that. Besides having him so high on HP's leads to some good ganks if the enemy realizes what your doing. as for the creeps in the forests, I think if anything they are too easy, or at least they don't scale at all. I mean a predator at lvl 9 can solo the Red camp with the dragon spawn a buddy does it every game and his cash income goes up quite nicely

[TGR1]

The others mobs are easy in my opinion except Roshan,which i agree to be A LOT stronger.Just my opinion.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

You guys think they are hard to solo? really? Wow they must have been a joke in DotA. I don;t find killing creeps all the difficult as pretty much any class. The only guy whose a problem is Kongor but at 20K HP's and a metric **** ton of regen i can understand that. Besides having him so high on HP's leads to some good ganks if the enemy realizes what your doing. as for the creeps in the forests, I think if anything they are too easy, or at least they don't scale at all. I mean a predator at lvl 9 can solo the Red camp with the dragon spawn a buddy does it every game and his cash income goes up quite nicely

Actually they are joke in HoN. You cannot have a 1.5k hp creep giving you 70 gold when fighting it alone, when in line you get 50 for an easy creep. In addition, Hand of Midas (Alchemist's Stone) is useless in HoN due to these figures (in dota you can get +230 gold from one of the neut camps). Hoping to be fixed soon

[Lore]

Actually they are joke in HoN. You cannot have a 1.5k hp creep giving you 70 gold when fighting it alone, when in line you get 50 for an easy creep. In addition, Hand of Midas (Alchemist's Stone) is useless in HoN due to these figures (in dota you can get +230 gold from one of the neut camps). Hoping to be fixed soon

The problem ist not the actual creep strength - the problem is the lack of damage and armor types in HoN.

[Glorify1]

the problem is the lack of damage and armor types in HoN. Devs have said they exist, it's just you can't tell what they are.


Actually they are joke in HoN. You cannot have a 1.5k hp creep giving you 70 gold when fighting it alone, when in line you get 50 for an easy creep. In addition, Hand of Midas (Alchemist's Stone) is useless in HoN due to these figures (in dota you can get +230 gold from one of the neut camps). Hoping to be fixed soonThey give FAR different experience values.


The problem ist not the actual creep strengthThe problem isn't anything to do with the creeps, with the exception of two of them. Minotaur's stomp is dealing 100 damage instead of 25 damage, and the tornado on the vulture lords shouldn't be casted. Other than those two figures, the creeps are the same.

The problem lies with the AI, they'll follow you until you break agro, where as in DotA they simply targetted the next closest enemy. This makes HUGE differences in summon heroes, where you can't optimize dps and in turn speed in killing neutrals.


Uhm, healing ward? Really?

Jugg can't solo a rosh, even with maxed healing ward, at 13 with that gear. He'd require both HoD and Vlads, and even then it'd be a stretch due to the bash feature rosh was given.

[coupnegre]

they'll follow you until you break agro,

So how can I then run in circles with the hero/summon unit with the neut's still trying to get it?

Not very strong on the technical aspect and the whole Rosh/Kongor thing is being ripped out of proportion. All I'm trying to say is that either the neut's are overpowered, or the hero's are all weaker, but please don't tell me that the neut's are exactly the same, or even weaker, because I have been playing DoTA for 5+ years (from version 6.21 (if you can believe that), although I'm not very good (irrelevant)) and the neutral creeps from HoN pawn harder for a fact.

[_Archangel_]

Definitely neuts are stronger than in DotA. The fact that they chase your summon around makes it much much harder to jungle with Warbeast or Tempest than in DotA with Lycan or Enigma. Can normally get 8-9 min Midas with Lycan; after my best efforts I scraped it at 12 one game with Warbeast :\

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Can anyone confirm Camp stacking in HoN? I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but I need to know if I am ever going to play Legionnaire in HoN :)

[DruidFluids]

You can camp stack.

[Zejety]

You can, but stacked camps will tear you apart on lower levels.

[Himura1]

i have to agree that the neutrals are stronger then they should be. a swiftblade with HotD and treads and i got hurt badly by the furblog counterpart here. at lvl 12-13 tht shouldn't happen =\

[_Archangel_]

Can anyone confirm Camp stacking in HoN? I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but I need to know if I am ever going to play Legionnaire in HoN :)

Campstacking is awesome when you're Axe in DotA, preferably from level 5 or 7 with a Stout or two. You farm very fast. I don't see a reason it won't work for Legionnaire

[BananaLove1]

Tried to junlge legionarie too, not a good idea :(

[Hibi1]

Jungling creeps need to be toned down slightly. It's way too difficult.

[Travakh]

There are only a couple of real differences with creeps. I've jungled successfully with Legionnaire, Slither, Ophelia, and Warbeast.

1. The wolf pack hits WAY WAY WAY TOO HARD. One 'volley' (one attack from each creep) knocks off 150 hp. It's doing almost double the damage it's supposed to.
2. Creeps with 'stomp' effects in dota cast them only when they detect 3 or more units in range. Creeps in HoN stomp randomly.
3. There's no 4-satyr mid level camp. That camp was one of the easier ones for a jungler to mow through.
4. There's no 3-satyr high level camp, which is a shame because that camp offered the highest bounty.

This makes jungling harder, but not impossible, which may or may not be as S2 intended.

[KMUS]

Orphelia (Chen) was an hero that was too difficult to balance in DotA, was removed a couple of time. In HoN, the creeps hit hard, had a lot of HP and that makes Orphelia a little OP, when he is with full minions plus the one that get from the (Helm Dominator) make him IMBA, because the only counter should be Midas... that only take 1 of the four.

[Lombar]

The creep with the cyclone it's pretty harsh too, since it takes off lots of damage and has a HUGE Aoe..

Well, at least that was my impression with a lvl 4 enigma.. umm.. Tempest :P

Appart from that one, jungling went pretty smooth.

[iamrawr]

Your name is very offensive in french op. I don't think creeps are too strong in this, they seem reasonable, but a bit stronger except for the mud golems (wild hunters) which seem to have been weakened.

[brn4meplz]

I've not had any problems jungling in this, Again i can't see how you guys are having a Hard time. The alchemist bones regularly pay out 200-260 gold per shot. Are you guys looking for free gold as your running through the forest? If so i think your expectations are a little high, your going to have to sweat and bleed for the gold but even still it's not hard to kill them.

I think the only character i had a hard time killing creeps with before lvl 10 was Magebane. Aside from that I've not had an issue with them. Hell with most characters I can solo the 3 dragons at the red Camp at lvl 9-13 depending on who I am.

[Travakh]

I've not had any problems jungling in this, Again i can't see how you guys are having a Hard time. The alchemist bones regularly pay out 200-260 gold per shot. Are you guys looking for free gold as your running through the forest? If so i think your expectations are a little high, your going to have to sweat and bleed for the gold but even still it's not hard to kill them.

I think the only character i had a hard time killing creeps with before lvl 10 was Magebane. Aside from that I've not had an issue with them. Hell with most characters I can solo the 3 dragons at the red Camp at lvl 9-13 depending on who I am.

Jungling in common parlance means starting in the forest at level 1, not laning.

[brn4meplz]

And even still with a Lego you could do it at lvl 1. Or anyone who has a summon, you just get the summon to run circles around you. Not all characters are meant to do it

[Travakh]

And even still with a Lego you could do it at lvl 1. Or anyone who has a summon, you just get the summon to run circles around you. Not all characters are meant to do it

Yes, that's not the issue. This thread is about how the neutrals are comparatively stronger in HoN than dota, and how heroes who jungle easily in dota barely manage/do not in HoN (enigma/tempest for one).

[USD]

I think the main issue is the fact that armortypes and damagetypes are not fully set-up yet.

And the owls cyclone is kind of overpowered iom since it totally kills your hp for a long time. Until you are like 12-14 its kinda rough.

[brn4meplz]

I played a game as Tempest Earlier, I didn't have any issues with it you initiate the combat, turn one of them Into Elementals and then run around them with proper micro you can insure you don't get hit after the initial pull.

Who cares if they are comparatively stronger. Half the topics on this forum are about how X hero is stronger(or seems stronger) then he was in DotA.

[AngelicXx]

I tried to jungle from 3 a lycan with my wolves only to die about 2 times.
The neutrals are so strong its just not even WORTH to farm them unless your high level with a battlefury and have life leech.

[coupnegre]

Admin please review...

*BUMP*

[Kitsunesama]

... while I have never played DOTA, I find the Neutral creeps to be prefect.

There are specific Heroes who are good at killing them early on, and if you are not playing one of those heroes, wait till you get a few levels and some decent gear.

Lets not make the game trivial by allowing everyone to simply waltz into the forest from level 1 to easily farm, I could imagine that making this game much less strategic.

[Glitchlol]

You can, but stacked camps will tear you apart on lower levels.

So a viable strat is if someone is going for early neutraling go stack their camps and they can't do anything?

[Killroy]

The wildcat creeps and minotaur camps are to be avoided early game. Legionaire will be crying for regen soon if he faces them. Early jungling is not a very viable option in my book. Even the "weaker" camps knock off enough hp at start. So this is something that you just need to adjust to. I don't think this a bad thing per se.

[Weissbier]

in my opinion, the badest thing about the neutrals in HoN is their AI !!
you cant pull properly (also because the Priority of ure creeps)
they follow u way too far and some of them seem to do caos dmg:-D

i played legionaire one time and wanted to jungle with him,
after the 3rd creepwave passing by and not even noticeing, that the neutrals follow me, i decided to line again and after 5 min i was at average lvl, so i think its just not
efective to jungel in HoN early lvl´s...
i mean in dota i pull the 2nd wave and do the easy spot and i´m almost lvl3 so i pull again and do the easy spot and ure able to start creepstacking (with axe)! if ure not ganked the cash is flowing :-D and u appear imba out of forrest, without any need of laneing !

greetz

[Killroy]

Not everything has to be the same as dota. I have no problems with that. It just needs some adjusting. But the creeps do follow you a lot and use their spells against you, making them a lot more powerfull and dangerous. I actually like these changes.

[coupnegre]

Not everything has to be the same as dota. I have no problems with that. It just needs some adjusting. But the creeps do follow you a lot and use their spells against you, making them a lot more powerfull and dangerous. I actually like these changes.

Agreed (althought might not like it very much), but then could the $$ given also be adjusted slightly, because, if anything, the neut's in HoN give less $$, which leads to the game being more about ganking and lane farming, than secretly creating a monster hero.

[Killroy]

With that I have to agree. It needs some tuning somehow. Late game the neutrals are easy enough. I was thinking off something like starting with lesser neutrals but that would screw Ophelia over big time. So that is not an option.

Or we just accept the fact that neutralling is just icing on the cake and to be avoided early game.

[Zyllos]

I think the neutrals fine. They are a bit stronger but give more experience.

Midas in HoN, I think, is much better than DotA's Midas. The Midas in HoN will gives more gold per use than DotA's because it is % based, unlike DotA's.

[Thotor]

neutrals creep are cleary stronger than DoTA.
And this is a problem in early game as you no longer have any alternative for lane.

In mid to late game is usually fine.

[proFits]

Campstacking is awesome when you're Axe in DotA, preferably from level 5 or 7 with a Stout or two. You farm very fast. I don't see a reason it won't work for Legionnaire

2 stouts alone no longer stack, you have to have vanguard or poor man's shield with stout

it's on DotA forum ;)

[SirNeo]

Yes some of them are too strong but i think it's ok this way. We can see now 5 heroes on the map because jungeling is hard. I don't know if in beta is important but when this game will be played by clans this problem must be solved

[Completeli]

I think it needs to be fixed. I agree not everything should be the same as dota, but this definately should. Being able to jungle effectively early game should be an option,if you get stomped in your lane,and they get a tower, you are basically out of the game for the rest of the match in this.

Or you can have 3-4 of your team stay with you at ALL times while you farm another lane. because you are under-leveled under-farmed and they will start roaming and you are perfect food.

The jungle was there as an option for melee's who got raped by ranged/int to try to make up for the gold lost in lane or for the carry to get money for items against a heavy push team. It used to be an almost required strategy to ward the jungle, now its no point. No one will be there for any length of time because of how hard it is.

Its almost worth the risk of getting ganked farming in another lane in comparison to killing 1-2 camps and running back to town.

[PatrickStar1]

Creeps are fine as they are, Kongor is easy aswell, Solo'd him at 14 with the druid guy they arn't hard at all if anything creeps are too easy especially noneutral ones as soon as you hit 10 with at least 1 attacking item just about every class can two shot them.

[Diomeneus]

creeps are fine... I jungle all the time as any class.