Discussion on Spellshard / Magic Armor items

[MushidoZ]

This has been discussed before, but since nothing has been made or done to change the situation, I fear the discussion has to be updated and brought back to the front scene.

Here are some numbers and facts that will be needed for the discussion:

Spellshard (Basic):
+6 int
+17 dmg
+10 Attack speed
+75% Mana regen
Ignores 2 / 4 / 6 magic armor
Also passively lowers the cooldown of skills by a low %

2575 Gold for the basic item (2 ignore), 3575 for the advanced item (4 ignore) and 4575 for the upgraded item (6 ignore).

Follow is a link to the spellshard FAQ. What is important to note is that no matter how much magic armor ignore you have, you will not go below 0. Moreover, if you get harkon blade, the penalty will only apply BEFORE the ignore counts in.
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?196396-Spellshards-FAQ-and-its-Mechanics&highlight=spellshard

Here is a list of items that counter spell casters and their cost:
- 400 gold for magic vestment
- 2050 gold for shaman's headdress
- 3653 gold for a barrier idol
- 3900 gold for shrunken head
- 4725 gold for hellflower
- 4850 gold for nullstone

Bonus: 4600 gold for a fully upgraded shieldbreaker

---
Argument:

Armor ignore is weaker than armor penalty. Yet, shieldbreaker fully maxed costs only 25 gold more than a fully maxed spellshard. Shieldbreaker is to be compared to harkon blade, yes, and harkon is definately a much better item in many cases (yet a bit more expensive). What I cannot understand however is why spellshard is so expensive for the little limited benefit it offers. Why does a penalty item, arguably the best of its kind, cost only a few 25 gold more than an item that gives a much weaker benefit.

It could be argued that magic armor is much more efficient than physical armor, and so having more (stacking) items that reduces physical armor over items that reduce magic armor is a good and logical thing. This would be a fine way to approach and defend the weakness of spellshard. HOWEVER, if magic armor is so much more efficient, why is it that magic vestment, an item that shields you against the advanced spellshard's effect (3575 gold) costs only 400 gold? Why is it that for 1100 gold lesser than a fully upgraded spellshard you can have +10 magic armor, versus the -6 magic armor IGNORE than the spellshard gives? Or that for 600 gold less, you can go around with a shrunken head that makes you completely immune to spells for as long as its effect is activated?

Spellshard as it stands is only useful on (maybe) 2 or 3 heroes in the roster, not against any opponent (aracna gives herself something like 34 magic armor from her carapace.....), and is very often less effective and useful than (say) going hellflower, which is about 200 gold more expensive only, but gives much stronger benefit, against all types of damage types, on top of silencing them.

---
Possible solutions?:

Many solutions can be proposed, and here are few of them

- Change the cost of all the items listed above (this would be a bad solution, but still one)
- Lower the cost of spellshard by a lot (this would be effective, fair, and efficient)
- Make it so the ignore applies BEFORE the penalty kicks in (this would also be effective, fair, and efficient, but would indirectly buff many characters as well as Harkon)
- Change the item's effect for something else (increased magic damage maybe? a chance to dispel buffs on cast? a chance to stun on cast? (magic savage mace?))
- Change the item's effect so that it becomes an aura/dome that affects all enemy heroes self-damage as well (with increased range on the aura per evolution. This would then work wonder against a character like devourer)

Any other suggestions? Anything to bring to the discussion?

[Ekamo]

Approved.

The issue you are bringing up is indeed a very real one, and stems from many different things, some of which you brought up. I think a serious discussion on this topic is clearly needed and as such the level of discussion should be kept thus, serious, with the forum rules (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?393760-Balance-Forum-Rules) in mind.

Any deviations from this will yield consequences.

[Skinsword]

Only barrier idol, shrunken head, and HF are true counter to magic and casters. Magic damage (from spells, harkons, or attack modifiers) scale incredibly well into late game. unlike physical armor, there is a limit on most heroes, how high their magic armor can be. Your mystic vestments argument is somewhat flawed. Yes, for 400 gold it does ignore the armor penetration effects of spellshards 2. It isn't possible to stack 2-3 vestments and start walking around with ~40% magic damage reduction. By stacking spellshards, it is incredibly easy for a magic user to deal true damage with all of his/her spells.

With that said, I am wondering why you left out the fact that spellshards lower the cooldowns of spells AND ITEMS by a significant amount and that you left out that multiple spellshards can be stacked for bonus stats and armor penetration (not sure about cooldown yet).

Unlike SB, I don't think spellshards are meant to be splashable on every hero. It was meant for heroes that has damage sources that primarily come from magic. If spellshards were buffed, it might be too broken for the heroes they currently work well for the cost of it making it more useful to a larger hero pool.

On top of that, its not the fact that spellshards are a poor item. Its just that there are often better items choices for the given hero. Items like SOR, Insanitarious, and riftshards are fairly balanced but not every hero can use the item to its maximum potential.

My verdict? Leave it the way it is for now, change it if needed if a new hero/item/mechanic puts this item in the dumpster.

[MushidoZ]

I did not include the cooldown because I wanted to make sure I had the right numbers when typing the item stats in and it doesn't say on the "item page" http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/items.php

I simply forgot to add it in because it actually is so low that it doesn't really make a difference in the end. As to the fact it stacks..

1) I didn't know
2) The cost is simply ridiculous to ever want to get more than one (or to even get one!), and there are way better items to get than that.
3) Shrunken head.

That item is pretty much already in the dumpster by the way..

[MikeTAR]

Physical resistance and damage is always going to have the upper hand over magic. This is because armor scales on heroes naturally through agility gain and physical reductions can scale with attack damage. Magic armour/damage is purely item dependent whether you’ve purchased a vestments, spell shards of SotM it’s the only way to increase magic abilities (with the exception of some heroes passive ability to increase magic damage e.g thunder bringer, damp etc)

Shaman’s headress cost 2k provides 10+armour. While we could argue cost and the stats it provides, I think this item is somewhat good for what it is purely because there a few heroes that will pick it up and these are typical strength heroes. If you’re picking up Shamans you do it for one reason only and that’s to tank magic damage. You’d never see a Valk or Witchslayer get these items to counter magic nukers, the pickup would be vestments.

Agi heroes and intel heroes are more likely to opt for shrunken head as it provides some HP and provides full immunity which is perfect for a glacius or tempest to channel an ulti without dying instantly to stuns etc, or even heroes such as TDL who need full immunity for 10secs or less without dying in the aoe of the fight.

With that in mind I think the main issue is vestments being so god damn cheap!!!!! I think if this cost more e.g 600g it would make it less of a simple side-shop pick up and allow spell casting gankers to keep their lane dominance for longer.

I personally like the spellshards build-up and I think it’s one of HoN’s best idea’s, yes it is somewhat expensive but the buildup of it is really easy and perfect for any intel hero that may buy it, please also keep in mind the items other benefits such as cooldown reductions.. Perhaps an decrease in recipe cost from 1k to 900 or 800 would make it more appropriate, or perhaps even increasing the other benefits of the item such as its damage or mana regen may make it more appealing for other heroes such as DR or SoulStealer.

Also on a side note can anyone confirm is spell shards stack? E.g buying x2 level 3 spell shards would double all benefits including cd reduction?

Harkons is a very strong item but is more suited to some heroes mostly heroes that are able to pump some out decent physical and magic damage, heroes like puppet, madman, dr, hag come to mind. Casters such as TB, Artesia generally don’t get this item as they never get the change to attack. I don’t want to say too much as I feel harkons is only countered by Shrunken head and is a separate balance issue to spell shards, magic armour and spell casters.

[man_guy]

I was under the impression that Spellshards was made intentionally weak so that early game magic damage heroes wouldn't completely take over every game, but have an option to extend the time that they have their advantage. Spellshards also only takes the stats of Great Arcana and doesn't improve with upgrades.

[MikeTAR]

That item is pretty much already in the dumpster by the way..

It's still very viable, i think players just get sucked in to thinking it's garbage from replicating what the pro-scene do.

I've recently been building Spell shards on hag, I build her with a nullstone, spell shards and a frost plate then split push the lanes keeping the pressure on there base. Do you know how annoying it is to kill a tank with a 5 second blink?

I'm no pro-player but it works for me and spellshards play a major factor in this working for me.

Most conventional hags would go for hellflower frost wolf amiright?

[GregerMoek]

I don't see how Spellshards would be part of that brilliant piece of strategy, a hag would much more likely be better off with another item such as Hellflower, Sheepstick, Harkon's or even FWS, Savage Mace, Shieldbreaker and other "DPS" items that late into the game.

Sure, Spellshards might be a tad underrated, but they don't offer much that is gamebreaking, even less so on Hag despite the hero having multiple AoE abilities (two, or three with FFP). Cooldown reduction is of course never bad, but you have to realize that Hag has no major cooldowns on her abilities anyway. Because the hero has a ranged attack and a blink it is more desirable to abuse this fact and get some good damage dealing items on her, because she'll be hard to kill without proper disable rotation and she can enter and exit fights with relative ease meaning that she will get many good chances of dealing considerable auto attack damage.

How is Spellshards even part of a split-pushing strategy? Even more curious why it is a major factor of split-pushing as Hag. You won't push anything down much faster with Spellshards compared to a normal DPS item. Even SotM would probably achieve more, considering that item also reduces the cooldown of the ultimate.


Spellshards is most valuable I would say on heroes like Behemoth, Magmus and mayhaps Bomb/TB/Ellonia/Engineer (heroes that are not mobile and/or won't deal much damage with auto attacks and still has most of their power in their AoE damage) as luxury items at best, and this is often when the opponents are starting to throw away Mystic vestments on their important targets (the supports are of course important too, but they are probably the least likely to throw this item away unless they are a Barrier/Shaman's Headress-going hero. By that time most would still say that a 2.5 or 4 seconds disable is better and more useful, or simply more sustained damage with normal attacks. Point being, while Spellshards do have beneficial effects it is seldom the most beneficial item to get.


I can't say how I would fix this issue though, price can be a cheap way of solving it (huehue), but it seems inelegant. I would rather change some mechanic of it, perhaps tweak around with the core characteristics. There are probably some SotM effects even are better for both damage amplifications AND cooldown reductions than what Spellshards offer, even if it is only the ultimate that is affected by SotM. A numbers buff also seems inelegant, and if such a change is going through I'd actually rather see a buff to the cooldown reduction rather than MA-ignore amount, because the amount of MA ignored is actually decent enough as I see it.

While I agree on that simply copy-pasting what competitors do is not a good way of learning how to play versatile and think outside the box, or even to show if a hero/item is super bad or not, I simply can't agree with that this item is 'very viable'. It might be a decent pickup but for that price there will in most situations always be something better to get (depending on what the situation demands).

[MikeTAR]

I don't see how Spellshards would be part of that brilliant piece of strategy, a hag would much more likely be better off with another item such as Hellflower, Sheepstick, Harkon's or even FWS, Savage Mace, Shieldbreaker and other "DPS" items that late into the game.

All I'm going to say is don't knock it to you try it, ideally my finished build looks like treads, nullstone, (sometimes nomes wisdom) frostplate, spellshards, demonic, (insert whatever you want here) in these particular cases it works well as they had a predator and other
Physical damage dealers.

Spellshards really made the difference it really made scream sting.

The point of it was to blink in cast and take damage, draw as much attention as possible so my team could rax or push another lane.

Anyway the point of it isn’t to discuss strategy but please don’t under estimate the power of spellshards on hag.

[Antimodus]

Creeps have 0 magic armor, so spellshards doesn't help anyone push lanes any faster. Well, to be exact, the -9% cooldown reduction helps a small number of heroes a little bit.

[Skinsword]

I did not include the cooldown because I wanted to make sure I had the right numbers when typing the item stats in and it doesn't say on the "item page" http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/items.php

I simply forgot to add it in because it actually is so low that it doesn't really make a difference in the end. As to the fact it stacks..

1) I didn't know
2) The cost is simply ridiculous to ever want to get more than one (or to even get one!), and there are way better items to get than that.
3) Shrunken head.

That item is pretty much already in the dumpster by the way..
I found out pretty recently that spellshards stack so I don't blame you. I just found out that the cooldown reduction doesn't stack however. The price for the spellshards seem to be acceptable for the heroes that really need it, while it disuades heroes that don't benefit as much from it from picking it up for the cooldown reduction. and why are you bringing up shrunken head? That is honestly an issue in itself that has nearly nothing to do with spellshards. Its like bringing up Void Talisman during a discussion on shieldbreaker.

[zstarkey42]

The item is not really amazing but there are definitely a few heros that it's still worth buying, particularity those that are mostly magic based, have HIGH mana dependency and have the potential for a lot of AOE damage (like artesia, tb, ellonia). Why? Because most of the time other single target/autoattack casters are better off with hellflowers and alike. I still think the item is a little too expensive for what it does, it would be nice to see a small recipe price reduction to maybe 800 or 900g but it's not really useless, just very situational.
The combination of Hellflower + Spellshards gives said casters very high damage even lategame if you bother trying it.

[Gorb]

Okay, here goes nothing.

Physical Armour vs. Magic Armour:

A lot of this is obviously rooted in the ported DotA mechanics (a lot of which are solid enough; Magic/Physical/Chaos (True) and the corresponding Armour) - Physical Armour (PA) scales with Agility and PA additions. Magic Armour (MA) only scales with MA additions. There are more items that grant PA than items that grant MA.

Ergo, PA is always going to be more prevalant that MA. For that reason, comparing Shieldbreaker (SB) to Spellshards is something of a misnomer because if Spellshards were as effective as a leveled SB you'd have a greater percentage of impact (considering the lower average value(s) of MA on heroes compared to PA). That's not even touching on the cost-effectiveness of SB and the aspects of that item that make it an unequivocally strong item pick in a vast majority of situations.

PA penalties go beneath 0, as do MA penalties (a la Harkons). Spellshards merely negates MA above 0 - this is a design issue made so that combining various types of MA reduction (Rhapsody, Harkons, Spellshards) doesn't result in a horrific amount of negative MA which would result in an imbalanced ability to kill a target. However, this is because MA isn't as prevalant as PA. The reason why this design decision was made was probably because there is simply not as much MA in the game as there is PA.

What would removing MA negation/turning it into MA reduction achieve: A large buff to Rhapsody's utility, specifically (a niche issue that can be addressed separately which may not even need touching dependent on Rhap's competitive ability and game presence). A huge combination bonus between Harkons and Spellshards, in addition to a (major) buff to Spellshards utility.

Honestly, I think that'd fix a lot of the issues with Spellshards (suddenly, the price of the item is justified as a level 3 Spellshards will reduce the average MA of any hero below 0). No real change to the item required, merely a change to game mechanics. It removes confusion between MA reduction and MA negation as well which is, in my opinion, simply complexity for the sake of fixing design issues already present in the game (lack of MA compared to overabundance of PA, as outlined above).

But you mentioned an issue of combining MA reduction items to gain horrific Magic Damage potential: if someone can farm a Harkons and a Spellshards, then either they're winning comfortably or the other team should build Shrunken Head(s) and/or Barrier Idol. If the metagame shift causes Magic Damage-based gankers to gain too much prevalence then iterate another addition to the MA pool of items (which is, of course, incredibly limited at the moment). Why not revert the change? Because it fixes things. It fixes more, mechanically, than adding an additional MA item would break (in my opinion). I'm not suggesting something like another Vestments (cost over-effectiveness, I choose you!) or anything as silly as a Magic Platemail. Something that Vestments builds into that isn't Shaman's, as a limited example. But that's only if such an item would be needed.

Issues with Spellshards specifically (independent of Magic Armour reduction):

The cooldown reduction is superfluous. There, I said it.

It's a tacked-on addition that serves little-to-no purpose on the item. Yes, it's just shy of 10% at level 3 . . . but at that level of farm you could have a Hellflower which grants +225% mana regeneration (cooldown reduction doesn't help issues with a limited mana pool) and an amazing active ability (not to mention damage and base stats). You don't get Spellshards for the cooldown reduction. It offers no survivability - it is a directly offensive item (hence the comparison to Hellflower). You can get Hellflower for the mana regeneration, the attack speed and damage, and/or the stat bonuses.

You get Spellshards for the slight bonuses a Great Arcana gives (for the heroes that don't necessarily need much mana regeneration; see Pebbles) and the MA negation.

The second issue. For the recipe cost it doesn't provide decent benefits. Shieldbreaker scales your damage and PA penalty. Spellshards scales the MA negation and that's about it (unless you think a 3% increase in cooldown reduction is worth the pricetag).

But SB grants an Attack Modifier and Spellshards doesn't: yes, and this enables other heroes to benefit from the PA reduction. Only the user benefits from Spellshards.

So I'm arguing that not only is one part of the Spellshards utility relatively useless, but the recipe cost doesn't provide the benefits such a cost should provide. We've seen some suggested fixes to that - increase the cooldown reduction(s), lower the recipe cost. However, lowering the recipe cost increases the availability of the item and makes MA negation more prevalent (forcing opponents to stack MA or die to burst-based gankers). This isn't ideal. We want Spellshards to be more cost-effective for the heroes that currently afford it (amongst other items of a similar cost). We don't want to nerf the price as this would reduce the 'tier' of the item to a mid-game burst enhancement (that would tail off in effectiveness compared to other end game items in addition to increasing the snowball factor of successful burst-based gankers. That would have a bad impact on gameplay, in my opinion).

Making the cooldown reduction actually useful? I agree. Removing MA negation and replacing it with MA reduction? As it's something I thought of, naturally I like that as well.

Removing the cooldown reduction entirely and adding another type of utility? Making the recipe upgrade the base stats of the item? All viable options that could be looked into.

I want to shy away from simply reducing the cost, though, and I just wanted to stress the difference between MA negation and MA reduction. I also wanted to hammer home how useless cooldown reduction is in it's current state.

[SmurfinBird]

I agree when it boils down to the cooldown reduction. There was some outcry in the community when the feature was added and at the end of the day it is pretty useless at a mere 10% for the pricetag. The item is not all about cooldown reduction yet they brought it in to the game solely for this item (at the time) and since it's been side-benched. It is nothing more than a gimmick and should not be a part of the item for that reason.

Since the overall point of the spellshards is to deal damage, I agree that the replacement of MA negation for reduction is a good direction to head in (though I'm not sure it is a solution). Perhaps we should either make it worth the price tag and remove useless side effects, or we should change the focus of the item (make a new one? Split spellshards in two?) so that there is a point to the cooldown reduction and it would be at least a situational (for some heroes) CDR item. This will move it to a primary use of prologing the overall crowd control duration for heroes that rely on this however, and should be explored careful as it would shake the metagame. I, personally, would like CDR removed from HoN until a time that it fits into an item as a part of it instead of as a gimmick.

[GregerMoek]

Cooldown reduction currently does actually matter on some heroes (Behe/Mag) that wants to cut maybe 20seconds off from their ultimates. While a buff to CD reduction would in essence be a buff to these heroes, I am not sure if it will be a big problem even so.

[Fen__]

I belive that spellshard is an unbalancable item. Why ? Because S2 made countless number of op nukers who can flash farm. At the current state of the game bursting down enemy isnt any problem. Early game is just possesed by nuking heroes. Nukers in mid game still got great potential and are a lot more effective than many carries since they drop down enemy instantly before they can cast anything. Late game is the place where nukes lose their power and get outmatched by physical dmg carries, but thats just how it should be.

Another problem of spellshard is that it doesnt require any additional items. When comparing it to shieldbreaker we can notice the fact that shieldbreaker needs (in most cases) help of other carry items to become rly effective. Getting shieldbreaker effect on a hero with low AS and DMG doesnt increase your dmg that much and with no hp its very possible that you will get bursted down before you will have time to do some longer term dmg. Argument bout sb affecting team can be made but in most cases its not as big as many could think since early-mid game supports/gankers doesnt do substantial dmg. At the same time spellshard is an item requiring only lvls. You dont need additional items to increase your dmg, so -6 magic armor at lvl 10 gives uncomparably bigger bonuses to nuker than to a average carry hero with just a shieldbreaker. Im not trying to say that spellshard is an item superior to shieldbreaker but that its effectivness in a short period of time is a lot stronger and the high price is necessary drawback to not make it/burst heroes broken.

I belive that untill we get some serious look at how powerfull hon nukers are (flashfarm + nuke potential), there cant be made any change buffing spellshard without making him/nukers imba.

[Artic]

The item is not all about cooldown reduction yet they brought it in to the game solely for this item (at the time) and since it's been side-benched. It is nothing more than a gimmick and should not be a part of the item for that reason.

Just a note, Behemoth Heart used to have 15% CD reduction for int heroes pre-spellshards.

[Hippie]

I don't think the item is bad so much as the heroes that really benefited from it have fallen out of favor in the pro scene - correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't see TB, Chipper, or Bombardier nearly as much anymore, and those three were the prime candidates for a Spellshards pickup. They were incredibly dominant in the early game and getting a Spellshards allowed them to extend their early dominance further into the game when they'd usually be dropping off due to Vestments pickups across the other team.

[Reldnahc]

I don't think the item is bad so much as the heroes that really benefited from it have fallen out of favor in the pro scene - correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't see TB, Chipper, or Bombardier nearly as much anymore, and those three were the prime candidates for a Spellshards pickup. They were incredibly dominant in the early game and getting a Spellshards allowed them to extend their early dominance further into the game when they'd usually be dropping off due to Vestments pickups across the other team.

All those heroes have been nerfed though since the introduction of Spellshards. Spellshards and Shieldbreaker have caused multiple heroes who could best utilize the effects to be nerfed because of their advantageous usage of such items. Shieldbreaker caused heroes like Nomad and Drunken Master to get faced with harsh nerfs as Spellshards did to the ones you mentioned. The item right now is nothing more than mediocre/sub par of most heroes and only average on the ones you listed. It has this very polarizing effect to it that makes some heroes too abusive with it, and the heroes get nerfed hard rather than reassessing the item as a whole.

I personally feel like Spellshards needs to have some sort of remake done to it because straight up buffing it would cause some heroes to become problems. We've gotten more nukers added like Ellonia/Artesia who would break a buffed Spellshards. As to what it should be remade into, I can't say. Right now though it seems like a faux spellcaster item that is basic filler space. The cd reduction is pathetic and simply ignoring magic armor penalizes some heroes and some item combinations.

[foxmindedguy]

I agree with Gorb's analysis and would like to add that you can get two armor pieces and it would stack. However, getting 2 mystic vestments won't do you any good.

Therefore, I can see why Spellshards is made the way it is currently.

Also, it is not like magic damage dealers can't get physical damaging items to carry: FWS + Nullstone + Savage Mace Hag anyone?

[Wyverex]

What I'd like to see is Spellshards giving some bonus stats each level (for example, +3 Int and +10% mana regen per level of SpellShards) and/or reduced recipe cost.
It would help the item greatly, because at the moment, Hellflower gives you so much more for just 150 more gold

[Hubaris]

Just a note, Behemoth Heart used to have 15% CD reduction for int heroes pre-spellshards.

And cast speed. Something which can easily be tinkered with in conjunction with Cooldown Reduction to make Spellshards more than just a straight DPS increase (read: An item which offers what Hellflower and other damage items cannot do).

[foxmindedguy]

at the moment, Hellflower gives you so much more for just 150 more gold

For single target damage amplification and soft-disable? Yes

For AOE damage steroid? No, spellshards is better. Therefore, you see the item picked-up more commonly on AOE magic damage dealers like Thunder bringer, Pyromancer, Plague Rider, Magmus, Bombardier and Chipper (after SOTM).

[Pellikan]

Spellshards biggest problem is that with all the escape mechanisms nowdays, a hellflower is a must to get a kill.

[Jezu]

The thing with Spellshards is that they cost a lot for what they provide.

Sure, the magic armor penetration is great, but it's a bit expensive. If I had mystic vestments (like everyone always does, the item is just so good), and the enemy bought spellshards, I could just upgrade the vestments to a Shaman's and negate the effect of Spellshards for a much lower price (Considering I wouldn't need the headdress without the Spellshards being bought) Or better yet, upgrade it to a Barrier for a cheaper price than Spellshards are. The fact that Spellshards work against the other 4 heroes without shaman's is comparable to the fact that Shaman's also works against the other 4 heroes without spellshards, so I wouldn't try to use that as a defence.

I would suggest the following changes:
- Increase the damage from 17 to 20/25/30.
- Cooldown reduction from 3/6/9% to 5/10/15%.
- Increase the Intelligence from 6 to 9/12/15

Because I feel the Magic Armor Penetration effect is fine, just a bit too expensive considering the other benefits are so minimal, so I want to address that.

[Gorb]

Moderational note:

Please avoid outright suggestions and please at least try to debate the points other people raise, instead of simply posting your own and using it as a springboard for your own suggestions.

[Wyverex]

For single target damage amplification and soft-disable? Yes

For AOE damage steroid? No, spellshards is better. Therefore, you see the item picked-up more commonly on AOE magic damage dealers like Thunder bringer, Pyromancer, Plague Rider, Magmus, Bombardier and Chipper (after SOTM).Most spellcasters greatly benefit from higher mana pool (from Int) and higher Mana Regen which Hellflower provides. Hellflower also gives more attack damage and attack speed, both of which are always useful.

Of course, ignoring the part of Magic Armor can work wonders on some casters (as you mention Thunder Bringer, etc) but even for them, Spellshards is rarely if ever picked, and there are usually better options (for TB, for example, both SotM and Refresher are usually better picks, imo)

[foxmindedguy]

Most spellcasters greatly benefit from higher mana pool (from Int) and higher Mana Regen which Hellflower provides. Hellflower also gives more attack damage and attack speed, both of which are always useful.

Of course, ignoring the part of Magic Armor can work wonders on some casters (as you mention Thunder Bringer, etc) but even for them, Spellshards is rarely if ever picked, and there are usually better options (for TB, for example, both SotM and Refresher are usually better picks, imo)

Maybe I am playing them wrong, but I DO get Spellshards over Staff of the Master when picking Magmus and Thunderbringer.

Why? For Magmus, I think Spellshards does add more damage and for Thunderbringer too. Especially if we take into account the plethora of skills that I will be spamming and not just the ultimate.

[Doomhammar]

Spellshards are quite viable imo. Any hero that mostly relies on his spells, such as TB, get huge benefits from it. And it can also shine on heroes that have longer cooldown in ultimate. Such as Tempest as the cooldown reduction can chop of 16 seconds off from the cooldown. There is no real need for it to be buffed or nerfed. Mystic vestments could use a slight price adjustment as it gives the most effective way to increase your survivability at early game.

[Beroya]

The recipe is never worth the benefits it gives when it comes to Spellshards. The only reason it's bought above Harkon's is because it has a cheapish build-up by comparison to that 2700 monstrosity. Or that's what I'd like to believe makes people choose 5.5-6 MA reduction for yourself only by comparison to a stackable 5 for all allies.

The cooldown reduction is really tacked on. Sure, I like shaving off a few seconds from some ultimates, but 4575 is steep for just that. Why not just get a resto stone at that point, and have way better regen?

[foxmindedguy]

Mystic vestments could use a slight price adjustment as it gives the most effective way to increase your survivability at early game.

Making mystic vestment more expensive is an indirect buff to gankers like Pebbles and Fayde. If we really have to copy DOTA pricing of bringing this item up to 550g, then I suppose adjusting the relative power (burst) of dominant ganking heroes will become imperative.

[Gorb]

Spellshards are quite viable imo. Any hero that mostly relies on his spells, such as TB, get huge benefits from it. And it can also shine on heroes that have longer cooldown in ultimate. Such as Tempest as the cooldown reduction can chop of 16 seconds off from the cooldown. There is no real need for it to be buffed or nerfed. Mystic vestments could use a slight price adjustment as it gives the most effective way to increase your survivability at early game.
Why would a Tempest get Spellshards simply for the cooldown reduction when he should be getting wards, PK and Shrunken?

I don't understand how you can argue something is fine just because it helps one or two heroes in certain situations.

[man_guy]

The recipe is never worth the benefits it gives when it comes to Spellshards. The only reason it's bought above Harkon's is because it has a cheapish build-up by comparison to that 2700 monstrosity. Or that's what I'd like to believe makes people choose 5.5-6 MA reduction for yourself only by comparison to a stackable 5 for all allies.

Harkons doesn't work in AOE. You simply don't have the AS to hit multiple targets and use your spells in a timely fashion.

[Draegnar]

At the stage of the game i think spellshards are viable harkons isn't, the 75 mana dump per hit burns through it pretty rapidly unless you've got some sustained regen from earlier or huge levels, i actually like the cooldown reduction the most probably because i miss the old behemoths heart and tend to get it on people with low CD's already, primarily TB.

My problem with it is all the people it works best on are trash farmers who require other items in a huge way, TB needs spellshards early for them to be really effective yet that leaves him with a diminished mana pool, no escape mechanism and invariably no hp either, by lategame hellflower is really a clear win to stop the huge number of escape heroes we have now when you can no longer drop them instantly.

[foxmindedguy]

Why would a Tempest get Spellshards simply for the cooldown reduction when he should be getting wards, PK and Shrunken?

I don't understand how you can argue something is fine just because it helps one or two heroes in certain situations.

Just for reference, how many viable Assassin Shroud (not building into Genjuro) users are out there? I have only seen Puppet Master and Gladiator thus far pull it off well in the competitive scene.

[Antimodus]

I imagine it could work on Skawt as well due to certain crit on +125 damage. Vanish makes him an AD-based carry just like Gladiator, and shroud gives +40 which is decent.

[Gorb]

Just for reference, how many viable Assassin Shroud (not building into Genjuro) users are out there? I have only seen Puppet Master and Gladiator thus far pull it off well in the competitive scene.
I'm guessing less than the amount of Genjuro users ;)

Spellshards builds into nothing, builds from the ubiquous Great Arcana (which builds into everything) and is comparatively worse-for-cost than everything else the Great Arcana builds into. Heck, I'd argue that Refresher Stone is more applicable in more scenarios.

Assassin's Shroud also has a far better design than Spellshards, with no wasted functionality (see: cooldown reduction, leveling bonuses).

[foxmindedguy]

I'm guessing less than the amount of Genjuro users ;)

Spellshards builds into nothing, builds from the ubiquous Great Arcana (which builds into everything) and is comparatively worse-for-cost than everything else the Great Arcana builds into. Heck, I'd argue that Refresher Stone is more applicable in more scenarios.

Assassin's Shroud also has a far better design than Spellshards, with no wasted functionality (see: cooldown reduction, leveling bonuses).

OK, agreed :D

But what would you propose then? Better stats for every upgrade? More -Magic Armor is certainly not the way to go, in my opinion. We do not want to indirectly buff Pebbles and the like without adjusting their power-levels accordingly with changing this item. :(

(Although I think Pebbles would be better off with a Codex than Spellshards, in the current iteration).

[Gorb]

I wouldn't, generally, post an outright suggestion. My analysis above has a few avenues to go from (none of which feature a simple increase of Magic Armour negation).

If anything I'd like to see if anybody actually disagrees with my analysis.

[SirVH]

Add a Harkon blade and she's able to 3 hits anyone.

[Gorb]

1. who is "she"?

2. What does Harkon's Blade have to do with anything, considering it scales better with pure damage (and AS) items than it ever would with Spellshards (as the Harkons debuff is applied before the Spellshards modifier, resulting in a MA that would never go under 0, if I'm remembering the maths correctly)?

Please invest more effort into your posts in future, lest they be deleted for not fulfilling the subforum rules and guidelines. "Add a Harkon blade and she's able to 3 hits anyone" is just as pointless as "Pebbles does a lot of damage".

[SmurfinBird]

I believe in any realistic situation that Spellshards fills such a tiny niche that it's not worth it. The item is outclassed by either Hellflower, Harkons, Resto stone or Staff of the Master, dependant on the hero/needs. It's interesting how we went from disagreeing with the CDR portion of my post to outright agreeing that it's not worth it over other items.

("...it is pretty useless at a mere 10% for the pricetag.") - Me
("Cooldown reduction currently does actually matter on some heroes") - GregerMoek
(Tempest given as an example amongst posts)
("Why would a Tempest get Spellshards simply for the cooldown reduction when he should be getting wards, PK and Shrunken?") - Gorb

Going back, I'd agree that the Hellflower active is too strong vs the current heroes used; there are far too many escape mechanisms to ignore something as strong as a silence and a perplex with an anti-juking mechanic; it has ontop of this a 20% damage increase from all sources whereas Spellshards offers almost nothing but more damage.

The damage bonus is usually around 200HP, dependent on some variables. (Health, Magic Armour and how much of your burst is physical damage (including autoattacks)) Below is spoilered some mechanics behind the Hellflower to Spellshards damage benefit:


To compare the 20% to the 6 magic armour ignore, I'll have to back up my claims.

For the 6 armour ignore:
If the target were to have no extra magic armour and 2000HP, this would be an effective health pool of 2660HP vs magic damage. (5.5 MA)
If the target were to have magic vestments and 2000hp, this would be an effective health pool of 3260HP vs magic damage (10.5 MA)

Spellshards would effectively (if we pretend magic is true damage and instead take from the HP) remove 660HP from the target with magic vestments, down to 2000HP from 2660HP.
Spellshards would effectively (if we pretend magic is true damage and instead take from the HP) remove 720HP from the target with magic vestments, down to 2540HP from 3260HP.

Against the same target without magic vestments, Hellflower's 20% removes an effective 532HP.
Against the same target with magic vestments, Hellflower's 20% removes an effective 652HP.


Continued, bit more theory/conclusion:

The thing to remember about 20% vs armour however, is armour is linear whereas 20% of a given amount is not. If you increase the HP to 3000HP without vestments, Hellflower's 20% is 852HP "removed" whereas Spellshards does not change the amount "removed" dependent on the HP.

Another point is that if a single autoattack is included in the combo, Hellflower becomes more and more effective against the target than Spellshards. For this reason, a combo hero like Pebbles that has a high base damage autoattack involved in the burst would find more benefit from Hellflower than Spellshards without going as high into the health pool - more stats is given from the Hellflower overall too (by far, see spolier).


Hellflower
+20 Intelligence
+51 Damage
+30 Attack Speed
+225% Mana Regeneration

Spellshards
+6 Intelligence
+17 Damage
+10 Attack Speed
+75% Mana Regeneration



In regards to the gold:
4725 gold for Hellflower, 4575 for Spellshards. Not a huge difference and Spellshards has a worse buildup (more expensive parts). The silence (and perplex!) is also very important if your target is someone with a spell to heal or escape.

Past this, conclusions are being drawn in the thread.

(credit to MacroHard for providing some formulas in his awesome thread (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?337020-Complete-Guide-to-Armor-Damage-Reduction-and-EHP))


Please bare in mind I did this as I believe there was not very much in the way of hard evidence in the original post.
The closest item for damage and those stats is Hellflower, hence the comparision.

[SirVH]

To be honest, I think Hellflower is totally overpowered, and comparing Spellshards to it, will always make spellshards looks bad. Hellflower needs nerfs, after that we should see where Spellshards stands.

[Wyverex]

I do not think that Hellflower is OP, it was considered balanced for a long time, and has even been nerfed some time ago, and now people call it OP... but I am not an expert, maybe HF is OP, but that is a discussion for a new topic.

But I do feel that Spellshards just doesn't provide enough for its price, so it should either become cheaper or more powerful (or maybe even both).
I do remember someone from S2 saying on a HoNcast stream some time ago that they are looking into Spellshards, but I don't think that he/she went into any details.

[Gorb]

To be honest, I think Hellflower is totally overpowered, and comparing Spellshards to it, will always make spellshards looks bad. Hellflower needs nerfs, after that we should see where Spellshards stands.
I think you need to stop posting until you actually reply to peoples' posts instead of just making another random unsupported statement. This is your last friendly caution.

[Dnakath]

Seems the sentiment is essentially that Spellshards doesn't do enough to justify its cost at the moment.


Maybe keep the intial purchase the same, but change upgrades to half?

[`11411181]

Spellshards is slated for a potential rework into a more team-based item like Veil of Discord.

[girard`]

Spellshards is slated for a potential rework into a more team-based item like Veil of Discord.

I'd be intrigued by that.

[BowieFunes]

Personally i think the item is just fine for early, MAYBE reducing the cost of the recipe to 800 gold would make it more atractive. But it gets easily countered in mid-late game by Idol, a mostly mandatory item in every fight.

Why not make Spellshards able to crit spells, like Riftshards? That would make nukers more viable for late game.

[Skyve]

Why not make Spellshards able to crit spells, like Riftshards? That would make nukers more viable for late game.

There's more than enough problems in that. With attacks you simply end up having a higher sample size, making the results more consistent, while spells in general have medium to long cooldowns, limiting your "sample size", and thus consistency, making results/impact of the item vary much more, and making "luck" a much bigger factor (the difference between a critting Pyromancer ult, and a regular one is quite big). That's why Blacksmith gets his CD reduction on his Q, to have more chances for his ult to even take effect.

The main problem I have with the current Spellshards is that the initial item has a limited impact, but with its stats being the way they are, it simply isn't suited to be a lategame item. So instead of buying a cheap Tablet of Command or Stormspirit you buy an item that will require you to pump another 2k gold into it, at which point you might start to wonder why you didn't just build towards a Hellflower in the first place.

Or at least that's how I feel when trying to build it on Artesia. Where Stormspirit would provide me a ton of mana regen and increases my damage by allowing me to use my skills more frequently, Spellshards gives me a "bit" more damage - which probably isn't even on par with one more missile (especially considering the additional bolts). Same goes for Hellflower.

[Rosgath]

I have a couple of issues with Spellshards atm.

First and foremost being that it's functionality for some heroes overlaps too much with SotM. Heroes like TB, Magmus, bombardier, and Geomancer all get nearly the same benefit for picking up an ult stick as they do for spellshards. All of the listed heroes are viable picks for either item and either item fills fundamentally the same role. The problem there is that SotM provides survivability in addition to the bonus damage so it kind of out classes Spellshards the majority of the time.

My second issue is that Hellflower is just an infinitely better pick in more situations than SotM is an equal pick. Far more often the silence AND bonus damage (that your whole team benefits from) is more useful than bonus damage to only your spells.

Spellshards currently does not fill any unique role other than reducing CD's which it's reduction is rather lackluster on the majority of heroes.

I think some good options for helping with the above issues would be:

1.) Allow a rank 3 spellshards to be converted into a hellflower with a recipe.
This allows you to choose between single target silence and bonus damage with lots of bonus regen or CD reduction and bonus AoE damage. The build up via spellshards route is also justified in that you have a more difficult buildup (1 arcana and 3 1k gold recipes as opposed to 3 arcana which has a high end cost of 800 gold on the steam staff and only 2 of those not shared by both builds) and the recipe cost could make it cost just a little more offsetting some of the earlier usefulness you may get from spellshards.

2.) Increase the CD reduction from 3/6/9% to 6/12/18% but place a static cap on the amount a spell can have it's CD reduced by. The numbers there are probably off, but this helps a lot with making spellshards worth picking up as an item earlier which is where it's designed to be useful and with a cap on the CD reduction you avoid it being too exceptionally powerful on heroes with ultra long ult CDs (Ra, tempest, Behe).

3.) SotM needs not to just give an extra rank to an ult. I think we can all agree a simple rank up (no other changes than basically ranking up the damage of a spell) isn't very original. There are only 2 heroes, I think, that consider SotM core. BOTH of those heroes pick it up not because it's a simple rank up, but because it applies a MASSIVE modifier to the ult itself (Voodoo for the multi strike and Chipper for the brutal slow it applies) which makes it worth getting.

[Doomhammar]

I don't think that 6 Magic Armor Penetration and 9% CD reduction is worth 3000g. Building Hellflower costs only couple hundred more gold and extends the damage boost as amplification instead of penetration. The amount of damage dealt is pretty much the same whenever building Hellflower or Spellshards, Hellflower just gives you crapload more utility compared to Spellshards.

[Psionic]

Okay, In general to the thread, first:

Magic armor. Oh boy, 5.50, 10.50, 15.50, you'll see a lot of these numbers. When it comes to balancing these one must remember that Magic armor is LOCKED. This number, 5.50, will stick to you no matter what hero you are (unless you're a spoiled :mage: ) until you buy up your defensive items for it. There are four ways that the average newerth citizen can help with magic damage. Shrunken head, vests, shamans, and barrier idol (and I want to think I'm forgetting something obvious. Oh well) and they'll all supplement your resistance in ways your hero cannot. Remembering this is the first step to considering changes. Magic does not scale, ever. The spell you cast for that first time at 4th rank, Lv. 7, will always be that powerful, versus any target, no matter what it is. The only exceptions to this rule is magic armor and items that help you deal with it.

1. Spellshards. *cough cough*

There are many, many, many reasons why you would not want this item. It costs 1,000 gold per chunk of 2 magic armor that you want to take away from victims, after building the Arcana, which builds into several nice things. But back to the Spellshards, it will also give you some cooldown reduction, which is useful for heroes that have long cooldowns on certain major ultimates. Nothing to laugh at there, except fort he fact that it is somewhat weak, albeit noticeable. At max, you can cut the average vests wearing citizen to 4.50 armor. With luck, 0 on no Vests, and in the worst case scenario, 9.5 on the neighborhood shaman. All around though, it's effects could range anywhere from serious to passable. Worst off though, is the teamfight aspect. With the amount of gold spent on the Spellshards max, you could have higher stats for survival, possibly a Sheepstick, a Hellflower, A Tablet, or a Stormspirit, all of which do not assist your damage potential, but they ARE effective teamfight items in terms of locking down items who otherwise would wreak havoc on your 850-hp Spellsharded self. Base line, if you would want to help your teammates in fights, you would skip it altogether, and be happy for it.

2. Harkon's Blade

The difference here. HOLYSH*THISITEMISAWESOME. Really. For roughly the same cost, it not only boosts damage of spells by cutting into magic armor (post attack), but it also turns your attacks into magic, making your own damage significantly greater. And what's better, IT HELPS ALLIES. Although not in the way of direct disables or support items would, you can throw in one AA on a focused enemy and increase the effects of your allies spells on that enemy by a very substantial amount. However, it has it's drawbacks as do all spells do, it becomes shunted by Barrier Idol and ignored completely by Shrunken head (save the base damage) which makes it viable against enemies who are likely to pick up nullstones, but not shrunken heads, or concentrate on another core item first.

Is Harkons OP? No, at least I don't believe so. It is very strong, without a doubt, but it can be dealt with by equal investment and correct play. However, Spellshards is lackluster for sure, as it only shows up well on few heroes. Honestly, I think the spellshards effect of magic armor penetration is not enough to warrant the cost, and should be reduced. But as a tradeoff, the cooldown reduction shouldn't exist on it. It feels like, in all honesty, should be a completely different item, dedicated to cost time reduction, and better at it.

Or.

Make Spellshards a toggle item. I've been toying with this idea for a long time, but Make Spellshards toggle-able. One side, 2-4-6 magic penetration. The other side, 5-10-15% cooldown reduction. After that, cut the recipe to about 700-800 Then, it suits BOTH issues. You can use it for pure damage in the need to get a kill, or for cooldowns, in situations where pickoffs are necessary but big cooldowns are always a fear on being spent.

I honestly think that with such a change, it would be more picked and more effective as a whole

P.S. CAST TIME BUFF. YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO MAKE IT. :O

[Example27]

I agree that Spellshards are quite a lackluster item, as it was previously presented at quite some length.
What do you guys think about % magic ignore? It would favour higher magic armor targets over lower ones.
And/or maybe cast speed?

[Bassrockerx]

how about make the lvl spell shards have an active ability that would reduce enemy's magic armor to 0 for ~5 seconds?? this would be great because then you are not worried about MA going below 0 and also increases the effect but not constantly. so most of the game it is left how it is but for say every 40 seconds you can click for 5 seconds of true damage from your abilities/spells/items. i know in some cases this will be redundant such as enemy's who already have 0 MA or the regular effect of spell-shards takes enemy's MA to 0 but that is the cap. The issue is not the fact that 0 is the cap on MA ignore but how hard it is to ignore MA versus how easy it is to increase your reduction/immunity to magic. the main one being that 400 gold gets you 4 magic armor (not that i want the cost of vestments to go up) also a 2nd solution is just make the spellshards ignore 3/6/8 that way if you spent your gold on a magic armor item at least it will help somewhat but a 400 gold item negating a 3k gold item compleatly makes no sense

maybe the real issue is something larger then just one item for example: magic armor should be reworked compleatly and made part of agility or intel? because on the one hand there is not that many ways to increase MA and on the other hand there is not that many ways to ignore MA and for balance purposes some hero's abilities deal true damage to circumvent the magic armor system entirely.

[SirVH]

I think you need to stop posting until you actually reply to peoples' posts instead of just making another random unsupported statement. This is your last friendly caution.
I think it's overpowered because of "all in one" it gives, attack speed, perplex, silence, +20% damage, anti juking ability and easy build up. But everything I said about the beneficts of the item was said on the post before mine. He even posted maths. Do I really need to repeat everything he said to support my opinion? I'm fine if you want me to, I just don't feel it necessary.

[Strayreaper]

I would like to see a change to spellshards, but balancing it would be hard. I think the best change would be to significantly increase the cooldown reduction. A 20% reduction would not be overpowered I think.

I do no think that changing the MA penetration to a penalty would be the right direction to go in though. Imagine a riftwalker ulting on top of a team and giving them all -6 magic armour, would it be applied on things like thunderbringer's passive (which is magic damage)? Any of the big AOE ultimates with any sort of follow up from the team have a much larger chance of completely destroying a team without them being able to do anything. I realise that the initiating hero would have done just as much damage by themselves with spellshards as they are now, but the ability to apply a -6 MA debuff to every enemy that they hit would be very powerful.

5 man tempest ult... Ouch.

[Antimodus]

20% CDR would insane on some heroes.
PWP and witch slayer for one thing. With sheepstick it would be like infinite disable loop almost.
And SS3 would be even more godly on TB.
Pyro could easily QW twice in a teamfight, and basically farm/push with fervor buff being nearly perma-applied.
SR judgement with 4 seconds CD? huehue
Magmus.. PK with like 12 sec cd, 2.4 sec on damage taken?

Not saying it's a bad idea, I'm all for making more game mechanics scale besides those boring auto attacks, just pointing out heroes are generally not designed with availability of large CDR considered.

[Strayreaper]

Well I was thinking something like what an earlier poster had said, (6%/12%/18%). The thing is that if you are going to spend 4575 gold on an item that doesn't give you any survivability, not many stats and not much mana regen, you need to have some really good benefits.

The comparison between spellshards and hellflower has been brought up many times in this thread, and for good reason. You spend just slightly more gold and you get all the benefits of 3 steam staffs as well as an awesome activatable effect for no recipe cost.

[Tupimus]

It's problematic how it's only actually used on the kind of "dump everything and don't matter if you die" nukers, like often you see competitive Magmus players hit it up (or a TB going for double ulti). It should be better for its price and Hellflower should be quite a bit worse.

[Hubaris]

The item has a few major flaws which has been discussed, but the best argument is that compared to the alternatives in a similar buildup and gold category, its how selfish the item is which causes problems. It offers nothing for the team except for raw damage, and even then in most cases even a FFP would offer more overall in addition to the aura, move slow and clearvision.

Compare the Spellshards to other items such as Hellflower (very similar buildup, not selfish due to the way it works). Everyone on your team benefits from a target being disabled, unable to juke and taking bonus damage. There are very little instances when you would just want raw AoE damage and nothing else (thats generally where Spellshards is supposed to shine).

Making the item less selfish by making it more like Veil of Discord in DotA would be a good start, and you would probably see it used more because of that team aspect and the fact that it helps everyone.

[sharbarachu]

The only real unique aspect of spellshards is it's cooldown reduction. The magic armor reduction is nice, and relatively in a good spot for it's purpose. That alone will never justify the item, especially compared to equally priced on-use items with powerful effects. I think the current 3/6/9% is the perfect tweaking spot as it's the unique aspect of the item. It also breaks the item away from the "selfish item" mold, as there are many non-direct damage spells that can benefit from this unique portion. Frostfield plate, blinks, stuns, and so on.

5/10/15 or possibly even 7/14/21 would really make this item much more attractive to heroes that normally instantly go for hellflower/sheep/etc. At 9% there's just no enough impact. Sure those numbers may seem strong, but there's nothing wrong with having OTHER strong items. I mean, if every item is strong, then you actually have to make a choice based on how the game is going, and not just on a "BUILD THIS ITEM ON THIS HERO".

[Tomate]

I actually feel like a 7/14/21% can be appropriate... Really reduces some cooldowns... specially on heroes like hag, reducing the blink and scream cooldown by a whole second would be huge... It would really make it worth considering over Hellflower... as of right now, it more often than not is a no brainer but to go into hell flower after nullstone...

The other thing I would change about the item is to allow the item to go into negative magic armor. Right now, the item has limited use on heroes like Blacksmith, no synergy with the long time unused Harkon's blade and so on... Leave the item as a magic armor penetration item and not as a magic armor remover but still allow it to go below 0 magic armor.

[Bassrockerx]

make spellshards stackable? the price is right two spellshards would be 18% cooldown reductoin at best and almost garunteed magic armor negation

[Rosgath]

make spellshards stackable? the price is right two spellshards would be 18% cooldown reductoin at best and almost garunteed magic armor negation

I know the MArmor ignore is stackable though I think the CD reduction is not. Been a while since I lurked in this thread so I'm not really sure.

The question really is, do we feel like Spellshards needs a redesign? Currently a lot of the sentiment I've seen going around is that it tries to do too much and as such ends up making it's own cost too high for any of the effects, even cumulative as they may be. MArmor ignore would be far better earlier on, but it comes paired with the CD reduction which isn't really that great in and of itself. I've seen the suggestion that it should be split into 2 items like Sac Stone was, but I'm not sure that's really the best solution. Perhaps one effect should be moved to another item that is currently less popular and amplify the remaining effect?

The problem that comes paired with that of course is that then one of the items will start to step on the toes of Refresher, but refresher is so rare as is that I don't think that'll necessarily be a bad thing and having a more passive version of the effect could be better on heroes who just have long CDs on basic skills (i'm looking at you pebbles).

[Bassrockerx]

so the balencers have spoken cooldown reduction is out and although there are no more items that increase magic armor sense last patch most heros have between 1.5-4 more magic armor. what irks me tho is that in a way nerfs spellshards because for many heros it was basically a core item and people were discussing there being alternatives that help team better but now spellshards are basically a requirement.

i do wish some of the better armor items in the game gave +1 or +2 magic armor that was stackable with vestments/headdress like frostplate and nullstone i mean it's MAGICAL ARMOR why doesent it protect you from magic damage?

[Ekamo]

This thread was constructive, but is now rather outdated.

Thread closed.