Overpowered/Carry Heroes intended?

[Connatic]

I'm no expert of this games origins, I played DoTa less than 20 times when there was less than 20 heroes way back when. But it is it intended for their to be "better" heroes than others? Are a select few supposed to be carries? Is it ok/normal that some heroes are "banned"?

Let me put it another way. Is this a balance issue that S2 hopes to work to fix or is it just part of the meta game? If it is, why don't they label such heroes in the menu select to help newbs (like myself) learn the roles if these characters. (Carries, gankers, support, whatever)

[Favorite1]

u cant define every hero as a carry or support u can carry a with a supporter or tank for example^^ also imo there so much u can play diffrent due to itembuild and playstyle just ifnd ur own thing and btw every hero can gank ;)

[ryzz]

big hero guide gives you all heroes roles

[KARTlK]

There are not supposed to be any heroes better than others.

The heroes are supposed to be better than others at certain things, however.

[Tyrando]

Their all different, no 2 heroes are exactly alike, the closest thing i recall is Old Sven/Old Leo who were very similar in gameplay.

Some heroes are more popular because their easy to play (look at Ophelia's play %, Hard to play is hard), some are just fun to play in general (oo how i love TDL) and some are good for those killstealers out there but we all know that hero ><

plus it also comes down to what heroes your team has and what they have.

[Connatic]

Well then what about these "banned" hereos I've seen mentioned on the forums? What's the reasoning and will they be balanced in the future so they are not banned?

[krucifix]

The theoretical idea is to have every hero equally balanced and equally useful.

This is extremely hard to achieve however, especially when taking the base in to consideration (DotA).

Some heroes will always be extremely hard to tune down enough (take Jeraziah), while other archetypes will almost be impossible to make strong enough (take Scout).

Basically, the idea is for all heroes to be equally powerful, just in different roles (as you mentioned, ganker, chaser, initiator, etc). To actually achieve this, is a very hard feat though.

[Tyrando]

Banned heroes are somewhat balanced they all however have 1 thing in common, their Ultimates make & break 5v5 teamfights in mere seconds.

Tempest, mega disable
Behemoth, mega damage/stunlock
Jeraziah, Godmode at the push of a button
Kraken, Sneaky roundup

all heroes have their counters and none of the above are a problem if dealt with correctly, its just the matter of banning them so they arent in 100% of every game.

Also care to note that balance in this genre of a game is possibly the hardest of any game type, you have over 50 heroes whom are all different to choose from than say an mmo with 8 classes.

[Blet1]

I beg to differ with crucifix , jera hails from omniknight from dota , who was in no way overpowered or underpowered , if you want to balance him you could remove the "tidebringer" and give him back his old aura take it away from kraken and give him back "kraken shell"

Off topic...
then people who say scout is an underpowered hero.... well , to me it all sounds like " look at me I played one game outside pub and I know that you can counter invis heroes with gem , I'm so pro .... still doesnt change the fact that scout kind of rapes every game he is in.

[Connatic]

Banned heroes are somewhat balanced they all however have 1 thing in common, their Ultimates make & break 5v5 teamfights in mere seconds.

Tempest, mega disable
Behemoth, mega damage/stunlock
Jeraziah, Godmode at the push of a button
Kraken, Sneaky roundup

all heroes have their counters and none of the above are a problem if dealt with correctly, its just the matter of banning them so they arent in 100% of every game.


So is it S2's objective to fix this? I have played quite a few games when all the heroes in the game meet up in a 5v5 brawl and one side or the other dies in less than 3 seconds in a mass special effect soup.

Sorry if I'm being redundant. Just wanted to figure out this meta game. I know it's hard to balance, but just trying to figure out if some characters aren't really overpowred, but more like the "quarterback" of the team.

[ElementUser]

Right, well I'm moving this to Strategy

[akitoes]

So is it S2's objective to fix this? I have played quite a few games when all the heroes in the game meet up in a 5v5 brawl and one side or the other dies in less than 3 seconds in a mass special effect soup.

Sorry if I'm being redundant. Just wanted to figure out this meta game. I know it's hard to balance, but just trying to figure out if some characters aren't really overpowred, but more like the "quarterback" of the team.
Key heroes are usually either

"Carry" : Pestilence, Sand Wraith...
"Initiators" : Tempest, Plague Rider with their AOE ults / Andromeda with her swap stun + dimensional...
Support : Jereziah, Demented Shaman, Accursed...

[KARTlK]

Well, there's something called meta-game, which people in this thread seem to forget.

In the current meta-game, most people don't want to face a jereziah. However, the competitive game might shift to using all agi-carries with nullfires.

[Ghork]

thats the thing, against all agis magic immunity isn't even that important so he shouldn't be that bothered by nullfures.

his ult would just be that much more powerfull since blocking much more auto attack dmg

[bobyahoo]

thats the thing, against all agis magic immunity isn't even that important so he shouldn't be that bothered by nullfures.

his ult would just be that much more powerfull since blocking much more auto attack dmg

Can Nullfires remove his ults buff i cant remember?

Also isn't scouts win percentage below 50%? Actually doesnt he have one of the lowest win percentages (this is to the post about scout being good)

Alot of the heroes are balanced its just that the way the meta game is played dictates that some heroes are not good. I think there is more a problem with underpowered heroes more so then overpowered heroes.

[Connatic]

I think there is more a problem with underpowered heroes more so then overpowered heroes.

I'd hope not. That implies that all heroes should perform like the "banned" ones.

I guess my question has kinda been answered. Heroes being "Carries" isn't "overpowered" it's just part of the meta-game. A team of all carries wouldn't do so well against a balanced team, correct?

...and the current "banned" heroes are just banned because of the broken combos they can make with their ultimates...which will be adjusted some day, right?

[g1mpie]

The "banned" heroes you are referring to are only banned in competitive because the ultimate can make or break a team fight.

S2 is not going to nerf the "banned" heroes because of their ultimate.

A team of carries would never make it past early game against a balanced team.

[NyRe]

The definition of carry is so vague that this doesn't matter anyway. See Kunkka, he has no late-game steroid (50 damage each 4 seconds is nice, but not nowhere a Troll's bashlock) but he's carrying one team in abit less than all competetive DotA matches today. Whereas Troll or Mordred aren't picked at all, even though their skills would make you assume they are much better carries.

What's the point? Well, the point is that banned (in competetive matches ofc) heroes are not banned for being OP, they are banned because they could synergize with some lineups to make them godly. Tweaking stats of one hero could make some other hero an instant ban, depending on what lineup you could build with them. That is why Sand King/Venge are picked in almost every game, but rarely banned - they play great pretty much independently of the lineup, you cannot really break the opponent's plans for the game by banning them.

[Kitad1]

Every hero fulfills a different role, and each hero has different strengths and weaknesses.

Of course, some heroes are a bit UP while others may seem a bit OP, but balancing is a constant process, and I think its not terribly unbalanced right now. Remember, this isn't a 1v1 game, different heroes will be more or less useful depending on who their teammates are and how they adapt, so balancing is also a hard process.

There are certainly strong picks, but you also see variety in matches. And don't get confused about bans, bans are something you do as a part of the hero selection and its a part of the strategy section of making a hero lineup, heroes aren't permabanned because they are OP(though there are frequent bans).

[trollfac3]

The definition of carry is so vague that this doesn't matter anyway. See Kunkka, he has no late-game steroid (50 damage each 4 seconds is nice, but not nowhere a Troll's bashlock) but he's carrying one team in abit less than all competetive DotA matches today. Whereas Troll or Mordred aren't picked at all, even though their skills would make you assume they are much better carries.

What's the point? Well, the point is that banned (in competetive matches ofc) heroes are not banned for being OP, they are banned because they could synergize with some lineups to make them godly. Tweaking stats of one hero could make some other hero an instant ban, depending on what lineup you could build with them. That is why Sand King/Venge are picked in almost every game, but rarely banned - they play great pretty much independently of the lineup, you cannot really break the opponent's plans for the game by banning them.

You are very wrong. Heroes in DotA are banned for being OP aswwell as the synergy thing. OFC you ban ES if you intend on picking BRood fx, but Kunkka is just a bug in the game, way too good skills, attack animation lane domination he's got all that's needed to be a hero that's just too much. And Sand King? He's banned often lol. Why? Because he's too powerful in a teamfight.
HoN has the same mistake, there's two types of heroes - gamebreakers and useless heroes. say Blacksmith for instance. Now im not saying you can't win a game with him but i'd take almost any other hero in any example in any lineup.
What ppl tend to forget is that this game will never be fully balanced as a shift in one character tends to buff/debuff another.

What they should do tho is make it harder to be carry again. Never before have i seen so many useless carry teams win game due to agishield/mana battery/hatchet = GG early game.

[Proph3t1]

The definition of carry is so vague that this doesn't matter anyway. See Kunkka, he has no late-game steroid (50 damage each 4 seconds is nice, but not nowhere a Troll's bashlock) but he's carrying one team in abit less than all competetive DotA matches today. Whereas Troll or Mordred aren't picked at all, even though their skills would make you assume they are much better carries.

What's the point? Well, the point is that banned (in competetive matches ofc) heroes are not banned for being OP, they are banned because they could synergize with some lineups to make them godly. Tweaking stats of one hero could make some other hero an instant ban, depending on what lineup you could build with them. That is why Sand King/Venge are picked in almost every game, but rarely banned - they play great pretty much independently of the lineup, you cannot really break the opponent's plans for the game by banning them.




At some point OP heroes were banned at the drop of a hat. Currently the only hero that comes close to borderline OP is Jereziah due to his ability to fit into any line-up and make it work.



I remember the days of...


OP Spectre with ridiculous dispersion
OP Bristleback with uncapped Quill Spray
OP Necrolyte / Death Prophet who were basically unkillable


etc.



To say that OP heroes don't get banned is slightly ridiculous. I do agree there is no hero in HoN right now that is OP though.

[Testknight]

At some point OP heroes were banned at the drop of a hat. Currently the only hero that comes close to borderline OP is Jereziah due to his ability to fit into any line-up and make it work.



I remember the days of...


OP Spectre with ridiculous dispersion
OP Bristleback with uncapped Quill Spray
OP Necrolyte / Death Prophet who were basically unkillable


etc.



To say that OP heroes don't get banned is slightly ridiculous. I do agree there is no hero in HoN right now that is OP though.

I disagree. There is one. He is truly mad.

[MooFreaky]

The heroes that tend to get banned aren't (for the most part... there are exceptions of course) the big carry heroes, as they can be countered in game. Stop a carry farming and he can be dealt with easily enough.
Whereas heroes like Behemoth, Tempest, Jeraziah etc will be effective regardless of items, and in a very powerful way. Yes they can be countered, but their threat level is still so high that they are just removed.


The best way to make these chracters played more at higher levels is to have more great heroes. I'd like to see the crappier heroes removed or changed to make them effective in good teams (heroes like Scout and Rampage should be reconstructed. They aren't useful higher up and scout makes the newbies cry - so it makes sense to just redo him from the ground up).

[Dataslycer]

Once upon a time, there was a kobold named Meepo. Most people do not pick him because his ultimate creates additional clones of himself but if they die, he dies. With a below 1.5 strength growth and the fact that clones can get buffed by stats or aura items, it is guarantee that he is going to be at a low HP state. So except for a few maverick inventive players, no one really chooses Meepo in pubbies much less high level games even buffed.

Now came along XcN_Lakuci, an official sponsored DotA clan. He took Meepo and used him very effectively but the question is if he can handle high level competition. Most people were suprised at the effectiveness of the kobold which caught even Icefrog's eyes who ended up nerfing one of his skills.

Not all useless heroes are truly useless. Some have hidden potentials that can be unleashed...until next series of patch.

[STFUppercut]

What they mean by banned is this - during banning draft and the such these banned heroes are the ones that are banned first and foremost or picked first due to how much they can change a team fight with an ulti. No they are not OP or unbalanced since their are counters. But not every situation can be perfect.

[Zakharov]

I think Dota-style games can have about 30 "competitive" level heroes at most. If you divide heroes into a number of categories, you can fairly accurately rank each hero in its category, where the higher-ranked hero is almost always the better pick. If you use 5 categories (say, carry / support / initiator / ganker / semicarry), there will be around 6 competitive heroes in each category - perhaps in a typical game 2 will be banned, and each team will pick one of the remaining 4, depending on lineup synergies. Other heroes may occasionally be picked for their surprise value.
The only real way to avoid this is to have explicit synergies between groups of heroes. One example of this would be DotA's "aura lineup", which focuses on having lots of ranged DPS heroes with damage auras (Drow, Troll, SF, Venge, etc). Each hero in the team makes all the other heroes stronger. Making these kinds of teams more common would mean that instead of having 30 competitive heroes, we might have 10 competitive lineups (50 heroes). However, despite the increased diversity of heroes, I think a change of this nature would make HoN a less diverse game.