Wards....

[Fuji1]

seriously there is no limit at wards. played a game with glacius and i had 10-12 wards up at the same time, its not even fun for the other team.

[Pzzz10uS]

seriously there is no limit at wards. played a game with glacius and i had 10-12 wards up at the same time, its not even fun for the other team.
You get this advantage by spending 1000-1200 gold every 6 minutes. What's your point again?

[Glorify1]

When you can ward every conceivable neutral spot and key location indefinately you auto-win with good players.

[_Archangel_]

You get this advantage by spending 1000-1200 gold every 6 minutes. What's your point again?

The limit is one set of Observer Wards every six minutes in DotA (With two being available at the start); that limit is there for a reason. Having ten Wards up, shared out amongst your teammates, only costs 200 gold per hero per six minutes. With ten Wards, you could have eyes over damn near the entire map. You pay 200 gold for six minutes of map hack. Needs a fix

[Pzzz10uS]

Actually, you are right, it should be brought in line with DotA.

[Fuji1]

and if you have heroes like glacius on your team, he doesent really need more than 3 bracers and boots,

[Siska]

Maybe there should be a limit, but if u have a team that organized to be willing to do that, you're most likely pub stomping them anyway... why not just not make it that easy for your selves.. Second.. couldn't the other team wise up and counter ward?

One team willing to pull together and outsmart the other isnt necessarily a game imbalance.

[Fuji1]

Maybe there should be a limit, but if u have a team that organized to be willing to do that, you're most likely pub stomping them anyway... why not just not make it that easy for your selves.. Second.. couldn't the other team wise up and counter ward?

One team willing to pull together and outsmart the other isnt necessarily a game imbalance.

We arent only talking about pub games here, as hon goes on there is going to be ladders etc, aka more serious games. As it is now its only ridicoules. And if a team dominates the game they can buy wards first then never get ganked because they have total map control. its ridicoules. its much bettre to limit the ward use so it actually requiers skill to place the right ones than for both the teams to use thousands of golds on wards each game. really needs a fix

[Kudryavka]

Wards are already practically nonexistant in pubs anyway. Unless it becomes a problem in competitive play, leave them as they are.
Edit: Also, if both teams were wandering through each other's forests to lay wards, wouldn't this result in plenty of action? You can't lay all these wards without putting yourself at risk, even if they do mitigate risk once you have them down.

[GaIactic]

Wards are already practically nonexistant in pubs anyway. Unless it becomes a problem in competitive play, leave them as they are.
Edit: Also, if both teams were wandering through each other's forests to lay wards, wouldn't this result in plenty of action? You can't lay all these wards without putting yourself at risk, even if they do mitigate risk once you have them down.


Meh, not really. Just have a stealther do it. Night Hound or Scout can lay wards anywhere they want with ease. And the team can just buy wards and leave em at fountain for them.

The current warding situation is ridiculous and it must be addressed before any serious competitive play.

^_-;

[FiNGERS]

I thought it was like this so people could easily test ward spots and get feedback to the dev team on where things need work.

[Cantspel]

Personally I don't see much of an issue. If you want to spend the money and spend the time placing them down, then go for it. You might actually see some counter warding if it becomes an issue (revealing wards with other wards).

[FiNGERS]

Personally I don't see much of an issue. If you want to spend the money and spend the time placing them down, then go for it. You might actually see some counter warding if it becomes an issue (revealing wards with other wards).

I think there should be a limit, because it actually forces your team your decide where to ward. Not just light the whole map up like you've got maphack. :cool:

[Glorify1]

Unless it becomes a problem in competitive play

It will be; go watch any pro dota replay and I promise you there will be ZERO where wards aren't utilized.

[Cantspel]

I think there should be a limit, because it actually forces your team your decide where to ward. Not just light the whole map up like you've got maphack. :cool:

Well there is some strategy with that too. People can still be highly selective and intelligent with their placements to save gold. Or you can be over zealous and light up the entire map wasting a ton of gold. I think with the price of wards, and the fact they only last 6 mins makes it so it's somewhat hard to keep them maintained.

[Sw4n]

please stop. there is never a time where buying wards is incorrect. any competitive play at this point would be a wardfest and the game would get turtled into the next century. there will be a limit because there has to be a limit, its just a matter of when its implemented. one successful push will give you so much ward money and so much map control that losing would be impossible.

[FiNGERS]

Well there is some strategy with that too. People can still be highly selective and intelligent with their placements to save gold. Or you can be over zealous and light up the entire map wasting a ton of gold. I think with the price of wards, and the fact they only last 6 mins makes it so it's somewhat hard to keep them maintained.

The thing is, people are going to be highly selective and intelligent with their placements to save gold anyway, unless one team already has a superior advantage or have a farm hero (eg Nymph) that doesn't necessarily need items to be useful to the team.

[Cantspel]

please stop. there is never a time where buying wards is incorrect. any competitive play at this point would be a wardfest and the game would get turtled into the next century. there will be a limit because there has to be a limit, its just a matter of when its implemented. one successful push will give you so much ward money and so much map control that losing would be impossible.

Just because you can see the entire map doesn't mean you control it. Just because you can see the enemy coming doesn't mean you can stop them. I would also like to point out you can reveal wards as well (I think dust should be changed to do so).

Who honestly is going to take the time to put wards down every 1200 distance or so? At it's worst I think you might see wards at every intersection. Which I think you can hit all the major ones with just 10 anyways.

[FiNGERS]

Just because you can see the entire map doesn't mean you control it. Just because you can see the enemy coming doesn't mean you can stop them. I would also like to point out you can reveal wards as well (I think dust should be changed to do so).

Who honestly is going to take the time to put wards down every 1200 distance or so? At it's worst I think you might see wards at every intersection. Which I think you can hit all the major ones with just 10 anyways.

Not a solid argument IMO. "Just because" reasoning doesn't cut it.

[Cantspel]

Not a solid argument IMO. "Just because" reasoning doesn't cut it.

This conversation is full of non solid arguments... Everyone here is making assumptions for the most part.

The reveal entire map is I believe and over exaggeration.

The arguement that some classes can spend all their gold for just wards I think is also false (If I was the other team, I would know to target the guy with no items).

Not to mention this also assumes the other team are complete slouches that can't stop the enemy team from farming? If you can get 20+ wards up in the map and still be competitive in fights I don't think you would lose anyways.

Warding is temporary, requires time to place, and costs gold. Not to mention they can be destroyed as well. I think the only issue here is that perhaps there should be an easier way to detect wards. (Dust I think would be a good one)

[FiNGERS]

I think the only issue here is that perhaps there should be an easier way to detect wards. (Dust I think would be a good one)

I also like the idea of dust revealing wards. +1 to that in any case.

[GaIactic]

Just because you can see the entire map doesn't mean you control it. Just because you can see the enemy coming doesn't mean you can stop them. I would also like to point out you can reveal wards as well (I think dust should be changed to do so).


Are you serious?

Have you ever played vs someone who had a maphack? In ANY game? WC3, Dota, SC, Counter Strike?

Knowing where your enemies are and what they are doing (while they don't know that you know) gives you such an obvious advantage in almost every competetive video game!

I'm amazed that you are implying that "Just because you can see the entire map" isn't the MASSIVE advantage that it truly is.

^_-;

[willtsay]

Lawl at cantspel. of course you can stop it o__o , you'd get such a ganking advantage that you would have more than broken even on gold, you should never be ganked as you'd see them setting up a mile away. your already in groups anyway so it would actually be a good idea to have 1 guy as a bait and rape there ass when they ppop in. Wards need have the DotA length cooldown for buying them XP

[Cantspel]

Lawl at cantspel. of course you can stop it o__o , you'd get such a ganking advantage that you would have more than broken even on gold, you should never be ganked as you'd see them setting up a mile away. your already in groups anyway so it would actually be a good idea to have 1 guy as a bait and rape there ass when they ppop in. Wards need have the DotA length cooldown for buying them XP

Goes back to the amount of gold/time needed to constantly place them up early-mid game. If you want to invest that heavily into wards then I say go for it. The other team can do the same if they want, and if not they have that much more gold to work with (if they feel it's a better choice).

Being able to see the map does help without a doubt. However it is by no means an instant win. When it comes to it, it's all about who has the better team (including to a point items). If you want to handy cap yourself a bit (item wise and gold/exp for being out of the lane) by being able to see the map then I don't see the issue. The main problem with maphack is...
1) There is no issue that the user has to deal with (cost/time).
2) The other team (most likely) can't do the same.
Neither of these problems come up with wards. Wards were added to the game for this reason, to see the map. If your strategy is to be able to see the map then go for it, but it will cost you more then just trying to see the important parts of the map.

As I have said (this is my 3rd time) the only issue I can see here is the lack of the ability to properly reveal wards (a practical counter). Many people say this game is a game with a counter to everything. Lets see one here.

[GaIactic]

Goes back to the amount of gold/time needed to constantly place them up early-mid game. If you want to invest that heavily into wards then I say go for it. The other team can do the same if they want, and if not they have that much more gold to work with (if they feel it's a better choice).

Being able to see the map does help without a doubt. However it is by no means an instant win. When it comes to it, it's all about who has the better team (including to a point items). If you want to handy cap yourself a bit (item wise and gold/exp for being out of the lane) by being able to see the map then I don't see the issue. The main problem with maphack is...
1) There is no issue that the user has to deal with (cost/time).
2) The other team (most likely) can't do the same.
Neither of these problems come up with wards. Wards were added to the game for this reason, to see the map. If your strategy is to be able to see the map then go for it, but it will cost you more then just trying to see the important parts of the map.

As I have said (this is my 3rd time) the only issue I can see here is the lack of the ability to properly reveal wards (a practical counter). Many people say this game is a game with a counter to everything. Lets see one here.

There are some characters in the game that can place wards relatively easily without having to lose much in terms of farming. Speedy stealth characters and Nymphora come to mind, as well as characters who really don't need a whole lot of items to be helpful to the team like Glacius. These characters can easily help their team have an overwhelming advantage just by warding up all the neutrals.

This is the reason you can't spam wards in Dota. It's a damn good reason.

And btw, the counter to wards is a gem. Even if dust revealed wards in HoN, If they place 12 wards in your forest you would have to buy 12 dusts to counter it. It would be much cheaper just to buy a gem.

But of course, you never know how many wards are in your forest, so the gem might be a waste of money. That is another reason why limiting the number of wards is really the only way to counter mass warding.

^_-;

[Krowser]

Buy a gem.

[Cantspel]

Buying a gem is a very cheap cost compared to mass warding (8 wards worth right?). If mass warding becomes the norm then I would assume having a speedy hard to kill guy with a gem would also become the norm countering it.

As for some characters being able to afford mass warding. Isn't that part of picking the hero? If some heroes don't need many items that is a boon to them anyways when it comes to buying stuff. Do you want mass wards, or do you want to disable a hero with the sheep stick (sorry forget the HoN name) or cyclone?

I still fail to see how mass warding would be a major advantage in league play (as long as there is a way to counter it or at least match what the enemy is doing). Realistically I don't think anyone here has had a honest test to see how practical and how much of an advantage it is in the long run to mass ward (more then 10 wards and not pub stomping). Once league play comes in I think everything will be put into perspective (after a week or so) until then everyone here is 'guessing'.

The "It isn't like this in DotA" I don't find very solid arguement. I understand there was a lot of thought into the mechanics of DotA, but it never hurts to take another look as to the reasoning. If the reasoning doesn't hold up, then there is no reason to follow suit.

To be honest this conversation reminds me a bit about the old "Invs is overpowered" conversation... There are counters to mass warding (not to mention setbacks for using it). It just sometimes takes an open mind to see it.

[GaIactic]

Buying a gem is a very cheap cost compared to mass warding (8 wards worth right?). If mass warding becomes the norm then I would assume having a speedy hard to kill guy with a gem would also become the norm countering it.

That's not a real counter at all. First of all, you wouldn't even know that your forest was warded up until AFTER 2 or 3 out-of-nowhere ganks, where your team would already be at a disadvantage. Also good luck convincing your team to buy a gem if there are no stealth characters on the opposing team.



As for some characters being able to afford mass warding. Isn't that part of picking the hero? If some heroes don't need many items that is a boon to them anyways when it comes to buying stuff. Do you want mass wards, or do you want to disable a hero with the sheep stick (sorry forget the HoN name) or cyclone?

I still fail to see how mass warding would be a major advantage in league play (as long as there is a way to counter it or at least match what the enemy is doing). Realistically I don't think anyone here has had a honest test to see how practical and how much of an advantage it is in the long run to mass ward (more then 10 wards and not pub stomping). Once league play comes in I think everything will be put into perspective (after a week or so) until then everyone here is 'guessing'.

This is where you're flat out wrong. You fail to see how mass warding would be a major advantage in league play because you never saw how it was abused back in old school Dota league play. Again, there is a REASON you can't do this in Dota.



The "It isn't like this in DotA" I don't find very solid arguement. I understand there was a lot of thought into the mechanics of DotA, but it never hurts to take another look as to the reasoning. If the reasoning doesn't hold up, then there is no reason to follow suit.

To be honest this conversation reminds me a bit about the old "Invs is overpowered" conversation... There are counters to mass warding (not to mention setbacks for using it). It just sometimes takes an open mind to see it.

This game is BASED on Dota. Everything about this game revolves around the absolute FACT that this game, for all intents and purposes, is a copy of Dota. It would stand to reason that things that were imbalanced in Dota would most likely be imbalanced in HoN.

To say that you don't find that a solid argument does nothing to weaken the argument, only your position.

^_-;

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Gem doesn't reveal Wards in HoN :P

[GaIactic]

Gem doesn't reveal Wards in HoN :P


Yet another reason why mass warding is game breaking.

But if that's true, that needs to be fixed, regardless.

^_-;

[Cantspel]

(and let the multi-quote battle begin)


That's not a real counter at all. First of all, you wouldn't even know that your forest was warded up until AFTER 2 or 3 out-of-nowhere ganks, where your team would already be at a disadvantage. Also good luck convincing your team to buy a gem if there are no stealth characters on the opposing team.

How would having the woods warded help in ganks? It only helps VS ganks, and in that case it is rather obvious if the enemy runs away every time you get close. As for convincing your team, that sounds like a team issue not knowing the game or working together.


This is where you're flat out wrong. You fail to see how mass warding would be a major advantage in league play because you never saw how it was abused back in old school Dota league play. Again, there is a REASON you can't do this in Dota.

Abused because there was no way to counter it? You can say the same thing about invisibility. If you make no attempt to counter it or at the very least mimic them, then that is your problem not the mechanic.


This game is BASED on Dota. Everything about this game revolves around the absolute FACT that this game, for all intents and purposes, is a copy of Dota. It would stand to reason that things that were imbalanced in Dota would most likely be imbalanced in HoN.

This game is heavily 'BASED' off DotA (getting confused on the meaning of based?). It isn't a 100% copy, how orbs work and the new heroes is a perfect testament to that. This game is going to be very similar to DotA, but it doesn't mean it needs to follow it in every aspect. There are some things S2 already hasn't agreed with skill wise that they changed. There is no reason why they can't also look into some other mechanics as well.


To say that you don't find that a solid argument does nothing to weaken the argument, only your position.

^_-;

What? Your assuming I couldn't respond (in a reasonable manner) to your arguement. My position doesn't feel any weaker from where I'm sitting.


As for the gem not revealing wards then something should be changed. Even if you are limited to a certain number of wards there should be a way to counter it. Either it be dust or gem it doesn't matter.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Yet another reason why mass warding is game breaking.

But if that's true, that needs to be fixed, regardless.

^_-;

Meh, not that much, nobody in competitive play went for Gem to clear wards, most people used Necrobook Lvl 3 (Puzzle Box)

[FiNGERS]

How would having the woods warded help in ganks?

I stopped reading after I read this much. GG Cantspel you are clearly the victor here and I step aside, you win.

[Cantspel]

I stopped reading after I read this much. GG Cantspel you are clearly the victor here and I step aside, you win.

If you are looking to play the 'elite sarcastic card' it doesn't help in conversations like this, to be honest it oddly enough only weakens your position (o.O).

I like it how you read the conversation out of context and assume I was talking about mid-late game. GaIactic was talking about the first few ganks. I'm not sure about your games, but generaly the first few ganks happen while you are in your lane. If you are going after a jungler, it doesn't excatly take wards to guess where he is. When in that context my arguement holds true I would imagine. I agree that wards help mid game when people are floating around, but by then someone should of caught on that there are wards floating around as well.

EDIT: Even if you don't agree with something someones says doesn't mean you should disregard everything they say. Everyone has good and bad moments, to ignore people simply because you don't agree with them on one or a few things is a very childish and arrogant thing to do. If you think they are wrong try to point out why you think they are wrong (kind of the point of balance threads like these). Otherwise there is no point to comment.

[krucifix]

This conversation is full of non solid arguments... Everyone here is making assumptions for the most part.

The reveal entire map is I believe and over exaggeration.

The arguement that some classes can spend all their gold for just wards I think is also false (If I was the other team, I would know to target the guy with no items).

Not to mention this also assumes the other team are complete slouches that can't stop the enemy team from farming? If you can get 20+ wards up in the map and still be competitive in fights I don't think you would lose anyways.

Warding is temporary, requires time to place, and costs gold. Not to mention they can be destroyed as well. I think the only issue here is that perhaps there should be an easier way to detect wards. (Dust I think would be a good one)

Which is why Glacius was mentioned.

With his aura, his improved auto attack, and his ice trap it's all he needs to be useful for the team.

---
I don't know why you're arguing against this Cantspel. DotA has set some ground rules for high level play. Having limited ward supply is one of those high level play balancing acts, and it's something that shouldn't be revoked. It's like the new fandangle MMO out on the market, going back and doing something of lesser quality than WoW does. When somethings set the bar, you don't purposefully go below it, especially in a situation like this where you are competing against the bar setter.

It's really a no-brainer...

[Siska]

I'm still confused as to why this is being made such an issue.. The biggest scenario seems to be for competitive play.. Well lets go for that.

1 - You're no longer playing against a pubby (hopefully). If the experienced player cant make educated guesses as to where players are, then they aren't ready to leave the pubs. Between watching the mini map and have team mates communicate, you can make good decisions of when to push up to or past river and when not to. Who cares if u can see them farming neutrals if they dont stay there all day giving you time to gank.

2 - As people said.. counter ward. You guys are making it sound like 200g is impossible, and if ur laying that many to make it like a mh, then 1 counter ward is going to see more than one ward.

And finally... it probably will get fixed, but there are bigger fish to fry than worrying about league play in a beta.

[Sadhe]

It's like the new fandangle MMO out on the market, going back and doing something of lesser quality than WoW does.

I don't like this analogy, it doesn't really apply here either. The new MMO is not WoW and does not need to be for it to be enjoyable to players.

There may be a very good reason for the ward limit, but if it is a viable tactic, then there will (have to) be a viable counter.

Either way, I'm indifferent about this.

[FiNGERS]

I'm still confused as to why this is being made such an issue.. The biggest scenario seems to be for competitive play.. Well lets go for that.

1 - You're no longer playing against a pubby (hopefully). If the experienced player cant make educated guesses as to where players are, then they aren't ready to leave the pubs. Between watching the mini map and have team mates communicate, you can make good decisions of when to push up to or past river and when not to. Who cares if u can see them farming neutrals if they dont stay there all day giving you time to gank.

2 - As people said.. counter ward. You guys are making it sound like 200g is impossible, and if ur laying that many to make it like a mh, then 1 counter ward is going to see more than one ward.

And finally... it probably will get fixed, but there are bigger fish to fry than worrying about league play in a beta.


1. Did you really just say that?

2. What? Obviously one team already has an advantage or they couldn't ward the whole map to begin with. You are getting turtled in your base, you just died twice, and there's nothing left to farm. What do you do now? Counter ward? I don't think so.

3. It's as simple as putting a 6 minute timer on wards with a 3 limit stock.

[Talander]

One of the main reasons was that too many wards slowed down the game too much.
With the ward wars arise several problems:
a) You spend a significant part of your time/resources on warding/counterwarding
b) Ganks are alot harder to do and thus the game drags on longer

Many of the changes in 6.59+ were to reduce the time it took to complete a game. Going back seems to be not the smartest of all ideas.


And finally... it probably will get fixed, but there are bigger fish to fry than worrying about league play in a beta.
As HoN is more aiming for the dota-players than people that start fresh, a somewhat balanced league play is one of the most important aspects of the game - and as FINGERS said, the change seems to be a small one (though I don't know if it is that easy technically - aka: No idea if it required extensive programming to add Cooldowns on shops).

[Cantspel]

Which is why Glacius was mentioned.

With his aura, his improved auto attack, and his ice trap it's all he needs to be useful for the team.

I mention this above actually.

As for some characters being able to afford mass warding. Isn't that part of picking the hero? If some heroes don't need many items that is a boon to them anyways when it comes to buying stuff. Do you want mass wards, or do you want to disable a hero with the sheep stick (sorry forget the HoN name) or cyclone?


I don't know why you're arguing against this Cantspel. DotA has set some ground rules for high level play. Having limited ward supply is one of those high level play balancing acts, and it's something that shouldn't be revoked. It's like the new fandangle MMO out on the market, going back and doing something of lesser quality than WoW does. When somethings set the bar, you don't purposefully go below it, especially in a situation like this where you are competing against the bar setter.

It's really a no-brainer...

All I'm doing is questioning why. As I've said before, I respect the work of the devs of DotA. However this is a new game, open for these subjects to be brought up again and looked at with new eyes. I'm simply not convinced that mass warding is overly practical, and even if it is I feel as if there are (or should be) ways to counter it. It is another dimension to the game, and I would hate to see it go.

[Fuji1]

its almost sad saying that mass warding should be there. If a team has the advantage in the game they can simply not loose with that advantage if they ward, because they will never get ganked. AND IF A TEAM HAS THE ADVANTAGE the other team wont have money for wards. and it would also be bettre to limit the wards so both teams actually had to use their brain to place the wards right. And it would also be bettre for both teams that they dident see the whole map the entire time, a big part of the game is dodging and ganking so it needs a fix

[Halo1]

Heres a very easy way to resolve this. Go watch any competitive replay from before they added the cooldowns to the wards and see what the support heroes do for the entire game. They ward, then they ward some more, and then they ward some more. they get their bracers boots maybe a bottle maybe a blink and then they are done for the rest of the game besides tp scrolls and wards.

And to anyone who says buying that many wards will gimp the hero doesn't realize that once those wards are down, all that hero will be doing is ganking with 1-4 other ppl because theyll be able to see the carrys farming/whatever anyone else is doing.

No CD wards make a supports job stupid boring(even more boring than it already is). The competitive scene that exists now in dota exists because of changes such as this to dota. Go watch a replay back when seige wasnt there, denys gave no exp and wards had no CD. It was a turtle aoe fest that relied upon warding the enemy's side to pieces and throwing some on your own turf as well.

Show me a competitive replay from back when wards had no cd in which the map was not completely visible due to wards and I'll concede this point.

[Sw4n]

its really annoying when people play devils advocate for fun. cantspel you are either the dumbest person i have ever seen or you are the dumbest person i have ever seen. i really hope ur ****in around, which would only be the lesser of two absolutely retarded things. you obviously did not play competitive dota when there was no ward restriction, there is a reason the limitation was implemented. some people cannot be reasoned with, you are one of them, you are not special because you rebut with 100 if/then/else theorycraft situations to avoid being 100% incorrect beyond reasonable doubt, anybody can do that.

[Fuji1]

word

[Vadi]

I do agree that seeing where your enemy is is a big part of the combat. But I disagree with placing artificial restrictions on them expanding their vision - just expand yours too (why aren't you?) or counter it.

[Siska]

1. Did you really just say that?

2. What? Obviously one team already has an advantage or they couldn't ward the whole map to begin with. You are getting turtled in your base, you just died twice, and there's nothing left to farm. What do you do now? Counter ward? I don't think so.

3. It's as simple as putting a 6 minute timer on wards with a 3 limit stock.

Plz read what i wrote fingers, i never said it shouldn't be fixed I was merely supporting the idea that there are more important issues that need to be addressed. But people seem to be having a bad case of tunnel vision..

To your #2... Obviously one team would have to gain the advantage to be able to ward everything, i agree.. But it doesnt mean the other team didnt start off warding and got out played. And if thats the case, then when you're getting turtled, it's not because of lack of wards.. and its a game of if they can defend and earn a lucky counter push.. In which case, the current wards would be out, unless the team on the offensive isn't focused on pushing and have their support still in bufu placing wards, and maybe they could in fact counter ward. 3-4 wards could easily do the job of preventing a gank until they get their act together, assuming the game does turn around..

Just because right now it's 95% like dota.. doesn't mean everything has to be the same. HoN is stand alone.. not a Wc3 mod. Hellen Keller was blind and deaf and managed to write a book. Surely a team could practice enough to know that when all are mia, not to just assume they're healing at base.

But to reitterate.. I'm NOT disagreeing with the issue, but all these "pros" need to stop getting their panties in a twist or something that could somewhat countered with some thinking..

[Cantspel]

its really annoying when people play devils advocate for fun. cantspel you are either the dumbest person i have ever seen or you are the dumbest person i have ever seen. i really hope ur ****in around, which would only be the lesser of two absolutely retarded things. you obviously did not play competitive dota when there was no ward restriction, there is a reason the limitation was implemented. some people cannot be reasoned with, you are one of them, you are not special because you rebut with 100 if/then/else theorycraft situations to avoid being 100% incorrect beyond reasonable doubt, anybody can do that.

Troll much?

I'm not unreasonable. I have a personal opinion which hasn't been swayed just yet. All your arguments are assuming you can't counter mass warding. I'm saying there should be counters to wards even if there is a limit, but after there is a counter to them there isn't any reason why you should put a restriction on it (much like how invs is considered). Having a counter alone (so long as it is about the same price or less) will automatically lower how much wards are used.

As for your arguement Halo, that support heroes would only ward. What about the other support items (sheep stick)? How much would they ward if they knew they could be ganked because the other team has wards as well? Would mass warding even be a good idea if the enemy had a way to reveal them and destroy them with relative ease? As for making support boring, how is adding an additional job to a class that stands back and disables people making it more boring? I would imagine that running around in the enemies woods not knowing if you are going to be jumped (they might have wards too or just be lucky) while placing down your wards would be somewhat exciting?

I've been trying to argue reasonably here, but most people who respond aren't either looking at the whole picture (mostly the counter issue), or they prefer to insult as a form of arguement.

[Sw4n]

the counter to mass warding is mass warding. therefore you limit warding to shorten game time, increase entertainment, decrease learning curve, and make it viable for spectating. its very simple; your inability to fathom this is incredible. the BEST counter to mass warding is limitation.

[Cantspel]

the counter to mass warding is mass warding. therefore you limit warding to shorten game time, increase entertainment, and make it viable for spectating. its very simple; your inability to fathom this is incredible.

I would respond to your counter issue, but I'm afraid I already have...


Personally I don't see much of an issue. If you want to spend the money and spend the time placing them down, then go for it. You might actually see some counter warding if it becomes an issue (revealing wards with other wards).



Warding is temporary, requires time to place, and costs gold. Not to mention they can be destroyed as well. I think the only issue here is that perhaps there should be an easier way to detect wards. (Dust I think would be a good one)



As I have said (this is my 3rd time) the only issue I can see here is the lack of the ability to properly reveal wards (a practical counter). Many people say this game is a game with a counter to everything. Lets see one here.


Buying a gem is a very cheap cost compared to mass warding (8 wards worth right?). If mass warding becomes the norm then I would assume having a speedy hard to kill guy with a gem would also become the norm countering it.


As for the gem not revealing wards then something should be changed. Even if you are limited to a certain number of wards there should be a way to counter it. Either it be dust or gem it doesn't matter.

*sigh*

That's all my quotes (in order) each quote is a different post.

[Harrypotte2]

This was alrdy posted b4, S2 said this will be fixed.

[GaIactic]

Good. S2 listened to the smart people. Mass warding will be limited.

Cantspel, you should change your name to cantdebate. You brought up almost no facts in most of your arguments, but you sure brought in a lot of theorycrafting, speculation and personal, uninformed opinions. The people who actually have REAL experience with Dota going back to the days before mass warding got banned were trying to make you see the light, but you just didn't listen.

Well the point is moot, since S2 is doing the smart thing and following the footsteps of the game that they, uh... based their game upon.

^_-;

[JeffEmming]

its really annoying when people play devils advocate for fun. cantspel you are either the dumbest person i have ever seen or you are the dumbest person i have ever seen. i really hope ur ****in around, which would only be the lesser of two absolutely retarded things. you obviously did not play competitive dota when there was no ward restriction, there is a reason the limitation was implemented. some people cannot be reasoned with, you are one of them, you are not special because you rebut with 100 if/then/else theorycraft situations to avoid being 100% incorrect beyond reasonable doubt, anybody can do that.
This made me laugh really hard, thank you for that.
You're definitely correct.

[Cantspel]

Theory crafting? It isn't that complicated for it to be a theory. If you have an item which can detect wards (which currently eyes do not, which I think is wrong) then wards themselves won't be much of an issue. Please by all means explain why that is wrong, because it follows the same concept as people using invs.

[FiNGERS]

Theory crafting? It isn't that complicated for it to be a theory. If you have an item which can detect wards (which currently eyes do not, which I think is wrong) then wards themselves won't be much of an issue. Please by all means explain why that is wrong, because it follows the same concept as people using invs.


you obviously did not play competitive dota when there was no ward restriction, there is a reason the limitation was implemented

4char

[Cantspel]

4char

10 wards.

While it doesn't uncover the ENTIRE map, it's damn close hitting all the major spots (- one i screwed up below my character).

[FiNGERS]

10 wards.

While it doesn't uncover the ENTIRE map, it's damn close hitting all the major spots (- one i screwed up below my character).

I fail to see why you would post something that actually proves WHY wards need to be limited. The argument that both teams can do it doesn't hold any water. Give both teams an instant cast 'kill hero' spell on a 30 second cooldown, that doesn't make it balanced either.

edit: You also missed a couple of the #1 ward spots. Also shows how much you obviously know about proper warding and how much map control just ONE SET of wards can give.

[Cantspel]

I fail to see why you would post something that actually proves WHY wards need to be limited. The argument that both teams can do it doesn't hold any water. Give both teams an instant cast 'kill hero' spell on a 30 second cooldown, that doesn't make it balanced either.

edit: You also missed a couple of the #1 ward spots. Also shows how much you obviously know about proper warding and how much map control just ONE SET of wards can give.

The arguement was that it should be restricted to 10 wards as opposed to unlimited. I was pointing out that the difference between 10 and unlimited isn't much. With only 10 wards you can 'turtle' and be practically gank proof.

Even though you pointed out that my warding wasn't the best (sorry, but give me a break I just jumped in real quick to throw them down with only half thinking) it still showed a rather large bit of the map (all the important parts). The cool down on wards isn't going to help this as this is the limit you are proposing.

The main issue here is a counter to warding, one that I have said over and over. There should be a somewhat easy way to reveal wards. It doesn't matter if some of the original items are changed to reflect that issue, or even if they create a brand new item.

Once there is a real counter to wards, the difference between 10 wards and 20 wards would be minor.

How many of you guys actually put down more then 10 wards playing HoN?

[FiNGERS]

Actually DotA is limited to SIX (6) wards every SIX (6) minutes.

[Cantspel]

Actually DotA is limited to SIX (6) wards every SIX (6) minutes.

Fine take off 4 of my wards (or play a Scout/Keeper). It still reveals almost all the normal gank routes. You are still left with the issue that you can't do much about stopping the enemy from warding. Instead of eliminating a possible strategy why is it such a bad idea to make a counter so it isn't as overpowered?

[Sw4n]

How many of you guys actually put down more then 10 wards playing HoN?

ive bought over 10 wards probably every time ive played support so far. and theres no way in hell i would have ever lost those games because its a pub and unlimited wards is overpowered. there is a counter to observer wards, and its sentry wards. the system of limited wards is fine, i dont understand why you want to change it so bad, it works fantastic, nobody has complained about it in 2 years except you.

[FiNGERS]

Fine take off 4 of my wards (or play a Scout/Keeper). It still reveals almost all the normal gank routes. You are still left with the issue that you can't do much about stopping the enemy from warding. Instead of eliminating a possible strategy why is it such a bad idea to make a counter so it isn't as overpowered?

The fact wards are limited actually makes it possible to COUNTER WARD. Remove the restrictions and counter warding just becomes a game of tag. Scout is useless. Tree is mediocre. I don't know why you brought heroes into this.

[Cantspel]

The fact wards are limited actually makes it possible to COUNTER WARD. Remove the restrictions and counter warding just becomes a game of tag. Scout is useless. Tree is mediocre. I don't know why you brought heroes into this.

Counter warding meaning putting up wards around the same place they are? That's not a countering that's using the same strategy.

I brought both of those heroes up because they both have skills to put down a ward type objects. With either of those 2 heroes you can effectively have 10 wards (more then 10 with keeper). Now unlike normal wards both of those skills have counters. Scouts wards are revealed if you get too close, and Keepers wards can be taken down by certain AoE spells or something as simple as a rune of blight (tango).

All I'm asking at this point so to have a proper (real) counter for normal wards as well. Meaning a practical way to destroy them.

BTW, scout isn't completely useless. He has some rather large short comings, but he has some utility. I wouldn't pick him as a carry, but more as a support+harass.

[FiNGERS]

Counter-warding means using Sentry wards so you can actually SEE and DESTROY the enemy wards. Not just plain sight wards so both teams have the same vision.

[GaIactic]

Guys, stop this. He just doesn't get it. It's going to be changed back, so his misguided opinion is moot anyway.

^_-;

[Cantspel]

Counter-warding means using Sentry wards so you can actually SEE and DESTROY the enemy wards. Not just plain sight wards so both teams have the same vision.

So why can't you counter ward when they have more then 6 wards?