Scout | ON HIATUS // DON'T POST

[Vulpes]

S C O U T | V2 <3


Introduction:
Played HoN for the first time, scrolled through the heroes.
Scout?! Eagerly picking him, as 'Scout' sounds awesome.
What's he going to be like? An offensive supporter?
Provides intel of the enemy team, thus countering invis heroes, blinkers, junglers, ..

Started the match. After 5 minutes I sat there, crying.

Some ridiculous Gondar/Sniper-Mashup, a hero that feels exactly like Rikimaru.
The 'Scout' got -one- skill that actually scouts..
No synergy between his skills at all..
Another lousy Agi Carry that will never see the light of competitive play.

Hating the whole concept of the so called 'Scout',
but assuming S2 won't want to invent new skills, I tried to tweak his skills in a way,
that made him actually fun to play, more than just right click,
and, you will drop off your chair, transform him into what I believe he should (read: was intended to) be - a SemiCarry/AntiCarry/Ganker.




http://s11.directupload.net/images/091221/ry8ag43i.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)
Sight Range: Day - 1800 | Night - 1200


Vanish
The Scout slips into stealth mode for a brief time.

Using the advantage of surprise, he severs an artery when attacking from stealth, causing a seeping wound that reveals his target.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/44/ability1_128.jpg
Action http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/arrow.gif Toggle

Mana Cost: 30 / 45 / 60 / 75
Mana Upkeep: 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 Mana per second
Cooldown: 15.0 Seconds
Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

Activation
Applies Vanish to self.
Silences and Disarms self for 3 seconds.

Vanish Effects
+ 15% / 20% / 25% / 30% Movement Speed
Stealth with 0.7 seconds fade time
Unitwalking

Attacking a unit with Vanish active will toggle Vanish off, perform a Ministun on target Unit, then apply Wounded to target for 4 seconds

Wounded Effects
Revealed
19 / 31 / 39 / 49 Magic Damage per Second




Electric Eye

The Scout places an Electric Eye which provides sight in an area around the eye.
Electric Eyes may be detonated to jolt nearby enemies, slowing both their attack- and movement speed.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/44/ability2_128.jpg
Action http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/arrow.gif Self Position

Radius: 400
Cast Time: 0.7 Seconds
Mana Cost: 75
Cooldown: 25.0 Seconds
Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

Activation
Places an Electric Eye at target location. Can be placed without breaking Vanish's stealth.

The eye has Insight and an unlimited lifetime.
If enemy units get within a 150 radius of the Eye, it will be revealed to them.
You may have 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 Electric Eyes active at any one time.

Each Electric Eye has an ability that will allow you to destroy it,
as well as an ability to detonate, applying Jolted to nearby enemies for 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 seconds.

Insight
Reveals Illusions
Reveals Cooldowns on Items

Jolted Effects
-35 Attack Speed
35% Movement Slow

Disarm

The Scout's mastery of close range combat allows him to occasionally disarm attacking opponents, then take advantage of the opening with devastating attacks.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/44/ability3_128.jpg
Action http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/arrow.gif Passive


Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7

On Attack
15 / 20 / 25 / 30% chance to Disarm attacking opponents for 2 seconds, then apply Opening! to self for 2 seconds.

Once Disarmed, opponents cannot be Disarmed again by the Scout for 3 seconds.

Opening! Effects
True Strike
35% chance to hit for True Damage


Marksman Shot

The Scout uses his crossbow to perform a devastating ranged attack on a single target unit, damaging and slowing it. The struck unit will also suffer from a bleeding wound, revealing it and inflicting damage over time.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/44/ability4_128.jpg
Action http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/arrow.gif Target Entity
Type http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/arrow.gif Nonboss Visible Enemy Units


Type: SuperiorMagic
Range: 1,500 / 2,000 / 2,500
Channeling Time: 2.0 / 1.5 / 1.0 Seconds
Mana Cost: 150 / 200 / 250
Cooldown: 75.0 / 60.0 / 45.0 Seconds
Required Level: 6 / 11 / 16

Activation
After channel time, fires projectile at target that stuns for 0.1 seconds and pushes target 150 units in the direction the arrow Flew. Deals 10 / 15 / 20% of target's maximum health in Magic Damage and applies Struck to target unit for 5 / 6 / 7 seconds.

Vision must be maintained on the target during channel time, or the cast is cancelled.

Struck Effects
Revealed
47 Magic Damage per second
75% Movement Slow initially, decreases over 5 / 6 / 7 seconds

General explanation:
I tried to change his skills in a way, that made him a hero that actually contributes to the team (besides killstealing in pubs),
give them some synergy and especially sense (why does one get in a flurry after breaking stealth?).
Of course, numbers etc may need tweaking, that's just my third idea.
Increased Night Sight to 1200, up from 800. Saw no reason for Valkyrie to see this far, while a SCOUT doesn't. Day Sight remains unchanged, as balancing this would become too difficult.

- Stats
Increased his Str from 20 -> 21, Str Gain from 1.7 -> 1.8
Decreased his Agility Gain from 3.0 -> 2.9
Increased his Int from 16->17
Should reflect overall that I want him to be a little bit beefier and less of a carry.
Believe here to be needed more (most probably), but wanted to start off with very little tweaks.

- Vanish
I dislike the current Vanish for several reasons:
1. EarlyGame-Uselessness. His primary scouting tool is ridiculously mana intensive, making it a sole escape skill. The increase in Mana Cost and interesting Upkeep (negating your Mana regeneration) makes it useful early game, as well as strong later on. Patch 0.1.56. fixed this partly, took the new Mana Upkeep
2. LateGame-Usage. Toggle on and instantly break it for the Flurry effect, that just doesn't seem like 'vanishing'. To prevent this, Scout gets both silenced and disarmed. The silence also keeps him from toggling it off accidentially after spamming Q while in danger ;)
3. See above, a Flurry of hits after you appear out of nowhere just didn't seem right; applying a DoT due to cutting some artery looks better imo.
>> The stun is a supporting tool (interrupts channeling spells, TPs), second effect is your new tool vs Invisibility
4. Night Hound Ultimate being worse than this. With 15Sec CD, this is EITHER an offensive, or a defensive tool (also considerably stronger early game, where Invis is good). Also increased fade time by 0.2 seconds.

- Electric Eyes
Really fitting, so I kept the general concept. Increased the Mana Cost by 50%, Decreased casting time by 0.1 seconds.
Added a Slow, as well as an Atk Speed Debuff on Detonation, decreased radius to 400
Removed seeing Invisibility, instead got the unique "Insight".
And removed the range! No putting it up cliffs anymore, now you actually need to think where to place it. .. or 'simply' start Lumberjacking.
Eyes will now be used more offensively early on, rather than putting them on Rune locations and then levelling them after lvl15.

- Disarm
Fun is starting. I really liked the concept of 'Disarm',
so I build this hero around it; making him an offensive supporter.
The old big criticals, 'usual carry stuff', are now a disarm, True Damage & True Strikes.
Who has the highest armor vs physical damage? AGI Carries!
Evasion properties are to be found on whom? You know.
Who needs to AutoAttack the most? Yes, you guessed right.
They will be eaten alive by the Scoutyboy (well, as long as their team doesn't 2shot him using nukes)
Though the True Damage Proc looks like a really high number, mind that it only works after you already Disarmed. So you have to take the first proc into consideration as well! Doing the math, I ended up at 10%/14%/18%/21% chance for an actual True Damage Proc (worse than all Criticals)

- Marksman Shot
Now, this is what took me the longest.
Single target Nukes are difficult to do supportive stuff; but imo it worked out well.
As I see his Ult, it should primarily be used as (second) initiation / ganking assistance, but -lets face it- its horrid at that.
The red target at the channel time gives away any surprise,
you breaking stealth actually is an anti-synergy between your skills.
Thus, it's mainly used after a fight, to kill off some remnants.
With my changes, we got:
A shorter channeling time, better fit into the character theme (due to Revealed), a DoT (honestly, who gets struck by such an Arrow and not bleed to death afterwards), a much stronger slow as well as a little push (will help out in Ganks).
Namechange to 'Struck' solely bc imo it sounds way more hurting than 'Wounded' (and Vanish got that).
To justify these crucial buffs, it got an increased cooldown, higher Mana cost, worse scaling, half of the damage being DoT.

Totally objective comparison:

Old Scout:
Early Game: You place wards up a cliff, then go in lane, farm.
Mid Game: You farm. At teamfights, you stand around invis and try to snatch a kill after your mates are all dead
Late Game: You farm. You stand around invis even more. Kill solo guys. Then proceed to lose, but with 15-0-0 stats

New Scout:
Early Game: You place wards at different locations each time, or have to lumberjack. You will most likely place only one Eye, to have the other free for ganking/saving purposes.
Might rescue your lanepartner due to Ministun/Slow; Feel free to roam - either instantly, or after lvl3.
Mid Game: Being squishy, you have a hard time here. You fire your Ult to initiate, dropping their carries / nukers.
In teamfights, this isnt really useful, in ganks, you are strong.
Late Game: You got your skills, and some damage on items. Teamfight, you semi-initiate by running in stealthed, slow their team, then fire your ult on their carry and go autoattack him. You win.

Finished / Discuss please!
He might be too strong or w/ever, all can be tweaked;
Discussion on the general idea rather than concrete numbers would be welcome :-) Discussion on the concrete numbers is now welcome as well.

I'm out.

[Danielvutran]

Your end "objective comparisons" are so biased it's laughable.

Your idea with vanish isn't a good one, personally. And your Scout in general will suck in team fights besides his eye and ultimate (which the old scout has anyway.) And in a 1v1, what can you do. Attack him with a disarm chance of 90%, and keep auto attacking him (at regular speed) while he annihilates you with special moves when it ends? 4 seconds is a long time yes, but what can you do with scout in 4 seconds. Attack him maybe 6 times max, at normal speed. And he is running away / dodging if you are playing someone good, thus making you attack him maybe 2-3 times after the initial attack. Unless you pull off your eye as well, that'll get you at least 3-4 more attacks and he is silenced. So totaling maybe 7-8-9-10 attacks within 8-9-10 seconds.

But see, with a normal scout, a flurry = 4 immediate hits, and another 1 hit from shock factor, and then you have the 3 second silence, and that's another 2 hits (possibly 3), which is the same amount of hits, 7-8-9-10 depending on the opponent. But within 3-4 seconds instead.

So really your vanish isn't a good idea at all, it's only supported by your ideal version of the electric eye, which in itself is OP as hell.6 seconds of silence?

That's enough time for every hero to use all 4 of their skills. The team that is being silenced has absolutely no chance with a 6 second silence, let alone a slow that makes them stay even closer together longer.

anyway, just my 2 cents. your vanish is laughable, and your electric eye is OP. the other 2 skills I have nothing really to comment on, I don't even remember them anymore after writing this.

[Metra]

Scout is fine.

[Vulpes]

Apologies for not anwering sooner.

For general notice:
As I stated, I'd like to see comments on the concept rather than concrete numbers

This being:
1. Remaking Scout to a Support/Roamer/AntiCarry mainly
2. Thus giving some of his skills 'True Damage', which is most effective against Agi Carries (due to high armor, low HP)
3. Changing Vanish so Vanishing/Instantattack doesn't work (ridiculing what vanishing should be), also making it worse than NH Ult
4. Fitting the theme of a Scout better by adding 'revealed'-effects to his debuffs
5. Generally trying to make him fit the role of a Scout better


Your end "objective comparisons" are so biased it's laughable.

Thought the irony to be visible. My bad.


And your Scout in general will suck in team fights besides his eye and ultimate (which the old scout has anyway.)He will fare much better than the current one, as he is not limited to Killstealing but will actually be in a somewhat safe position (crushing their carry);
plus both tweaked eye and edited ult are better for teamfights than right now.


And in a 1v1, what can you do. [..]You got a good point here, thanks.
Though mind, he should be a supporter/roamer mainly, 1v1 rarely happens.


it's only supported by your ideal version of the electric eye, which in itself is OP as hell.6 seconds of silence?

That's enough time for every hero to use all 4 of their skills. The team that is being silenced has absolutely no chance with a 6 second silence, let alone a slow that makes them stay even closer together longer.You don't seem to know that the 3/4/5/6 second silence scaling is actually nothing I changed.
It's from the current eye. Look at my commentary for what I changed.
Though yes, they seem strangely overpowered. I will rethink about tweaking them.

Also commenting on Vanish, bear in mind that Night Hound Ult makes invisible, and invisible alone.
If you make Vanish to a permanent invisibility with additional benefits (breaking it -> Flurry), it ridicules an ULTIMATE.

Metra: No he isn't, not in the slightest bit.
He is one of the lamest heroes to play, while being REALLY close to another (Night Hound),
totally buttrapes bad pubs and is a shitty hero in better ones / competitive play.
The recent patch NERFED Scout though he never sees play competitively, telling enough about his horrid misbalancing.

E: Version2 is up now. All additional changes in red. Outdated stuff I just deleted, dunno how to do crossed out text.

[Sapheron]

I'm not so sure about your Vanish, its a toggle, yet it has a 20s cooldown so after he appears, he has 20s of non-invis time. Looking at how the scout fares now with just 6s cooldown, 20s may be too long. I like the wounded effect though, they could bring back the old backstab animation and sound effect. :)

How long does disarmed last on the person you hit? I think "Opening!" is a nice idea as 3s isn't a very long time anyway.

Also, I think the slow on mmshot lasts too long, coupled with, lets say, a vanish strike, they'd be slowed to an absolute crawl for quite a long time.

[PoopyDesires]

You did absolutely nothing to deal with Scout's problems and only made negative changes.

[Vulpes]

I just thought of increasing his sight range, he got 1800/800 (day/night) like almost every other hero, just some got better.. Valk has 1800/1200.. just why? :S
Any comments on that? Making it like 1900/1000.


I'm not so sure about your Vanish, its a toggle, yet it has a 20s cooldown so after he appears, he has 20s of non-invis time. Looking at how the scout fares now with just 6s cooldown, 20s may be too long. I like the wounded effect though, they could bring back the old backstab animation and sound effect. :)

I wanted to make it clearly distinguishable from NHs Ult, and with 20s CD it is either offensive or defensive, never both.
Though I guess one could reduce it to 15sec at all levels, but again, these are numbers.
Started playing at.. 1.47 I believe, what was old backstab? I heard of a Scout edit back in 1.40 or smth, but don't know anything about it.


How long does disarmed last on the person you hit? I think "Opening!" is a nice idea as 3s isn't a very long time anyway.You apply Disarmed to your target for 2 seconds, then Opening! to self for the same amount.

Versus AGI Carries, TrueStrike is basically a 2x Crit with a 30% Chance to proc, vs Str Guys (with HP rather than Armor) and Nukers (with neither :x) it scales much worse;
Since he should be an Anti-Carry Roamer, this works out nicely imo (plus Nukers can completly avoid it by not attacking)


Also, I think the slow on mmshot lasts too long, coupled with, lets say, a vanish strike, they'd be slowed to an absolute crawl for quite a long time.That was the idea ;) Again, these are numbers. Maybe Slow down to 5 seconds, maybe have it starting at 66%, etc


You did absolutely nothing to deal with Scout's problems and only made negative changes.

I'd love to hear a more specific comment -
As far as I see it, the following are Scouts problems:

1. Early Game uselessness, very much like a usual HardCarry.
No Stun, low Stats, not even a Slow; his Invis is purely an escape tool (as 2 attacks, even if fast, do nothing really at this level)
2. Mid Game uselessness, very much like.. no other. Chronos maybe. He is hella squishy, got nothing to help pushing/stop pushes, only support are his eyes. Since they Silence, he has to place them in enemy backline, and with wards around, he will die in the process. Still no real damage (without strong items, crit doesnt do much); his Ult being outrun by everyone, if he uses it to initiate, he actually breaks Vanish, thus removing his Flurry.
3. Late Game, he becomes an Anti-Carry and actually a decent Carry by himself, but, as I compare him with Chronos - he is about as useless Early/Mid, and doesnt own Lategame half as much if farmed.

This all adds together with general concept fails;
A -Scout- with ONE Skill for Scouting, an ANTISCOUTING-Skill even (He requires sight for his Ult? A Scout should PROVIDE Sight; His ult is.. well, artillery, not anything close to scouting), plus a completly senseless Vanish (so I hide somewhere and after I get out I.. attack faster? huh?).. well, it's just lame.

If I compare my Scout to this, I get:
1. EarlyGame somewhat capable of roaming, since his Vanish stuns shortly and is a decent slow, plus Slow on Eye; this also could rescue teammates early on (and later ofc as well)
2. Mid Game much more effective, since he can also place the eye near their carry (Slow / Atk Speed Debuff), much higher disarm proc also helps early on. Ult has lower channeling time, a more potent slow, plus deals more damage at lvl1.
3. Late Game less of a carry himself, but his Ult is now a potent nuke, as well as him being able to AoE Silence/Slow/AtkSlow for 6 seconds, and totally crushing enemy carries in teamfights
Conceptionally, Reveal on his Ult (thought of getting it on Vanish as well) makes more sense, a single strong blow after Vanish makes MUCH more sense, well.. I can only do so much (Ult still bugs me).

[MeVe]

6 second silence and slow on electric eye.. poor night hound

[Vulpes]

Cloud is much easier to place (since you can Pounce in), slows more, reduces Atk Speed more.

Actually, I thought of removing the Silence and strenghtening the Slow, at least design wise -
I have an 'electric' thing that gives off an electric discharge..
Slowing me (close to paralyzing), yes. Slowing my Attack Speed, yes. Making me unable to cast - No.

Another Idea I had was giving the Vanish-Stab Revealed, remove True Sight from the Eyes and give them 'Insight' instead.
Insight would be a new trait, that makes Illusions distinguishable from real Bodies, as well as possibly being able to see CDs on enemy Items.
He would still be a viable counter to Invisibilty (with 2 of his Skills revealing), while not being able to Counterward for Free & instead give him a unique characteristic;
Making him somewhat of a counter to Wraith, as well as being able to see TP-Cooldowns - unique scouting abilities for a SCOUT, that actually sounds good.

[Soz3]

I seriously never thought like sniper was useless.. I do with Scout...

[KingMoscow]

Your Electric Eye is better than Vindicator's ult?

What the holy ****?

[Vulpes]

The current Electric Eye silences for 6 seconds in a 450 radius for 50 Manacost, while having a 150 Range.
My Electric Eye silences for 6 seconds in a 400 radius for 100 Manacost, while being placed at Self Position.

I totally made them better. Plus a global silence is outshined by them.

Still, I will actually rework them the way I mentioned above, just too lazy to do it now.

[R3APER17]

I find Scout so amazingly easy to use, if you can farm Runed axe then Wingbow + Luxury crap? I find him very difficult to handle.

[levo]

scout is fine now, balanced no need to be tweeked again, there are more other heroes to be fixed or buffed.

[Vulpes]

He sucks. That's all there is to it.

[Todai]

Troll?

[Blet1]

y totally sucks that's why I got 15-1 in stats with scout
roughly 94% winrate with scout , go ladder and watch my win% with scout ,

[Succubian]

Wow!
The nice remake i like it.

[Gizzleby]

I dislike it. Too much true damage involved. On top you gave him silence (he already had that), stun and slow, both ms and as, as well as true strike. This is just too much for one single hero.
And do not mind comparing vanish with Night Hound stealth, because Night Hound surely is crap except for his cloud.

In the end scout is fine the way he is.

[Butterfinger]

Arrow not breaking stealth is completely ridiculous.

[Lolcraft]

You best be joking. Vanish doing true damage sounds more like a finisher since it silence and disarms yourself (killsteal move anyone?),the eye is fine, but you fail to mention how long disarm lasts on the enemy and again with the true damage? The same thing with ult, it again does true damage in percentage of hp, but not breaking stealth is overdoing it.

My only problem is the fact that 3 of his abilties do true damage.

[Vulpes]

Vanish doing true damage sounds more like a finisher since it silence and disarms yourself (killsteal move anyone?)

It silences + disarms as you START Vanish, not as you break it.
So 2 things don't happen anymore:
1. I attack someone, Vanish & instantly start attacking again to get the benefit from breaking Vanish
2. I am in danger, spam Q, then Vanish and instantly toggle it off (as you can't toggle off while silenced)


but you fail to mention how long disarm lasts on the enemy and again with the true damage?

How long does disarmed last on the person you hit? I think "Opening!" is a nice idea as 3s isn't a very long time anyway.You apply Disarmed to your target for 2 seconds, then Opening! to self for the same amount.

Versus AGI Carries, TrueStrike is basically a 2x Crit with a 30% Chance to proc, vs Str Guys (with HP rather than Armor) and Nukers (with neither :x) it scales much worse;
Since he should be an Anti-Carry Roamer, this works out nicely imo (plus Nukers can completly avoid it by not attacking)


The same thing with ult, it again does true damage in percentage of hp, but not breaking stealth is overdoing it.

My only problem is the fact that 3 of his abilties do true damage.

I wanted it to not break Stealth, as that is actually an antisynergy between his skills, but i guess with the Range it has it's fine.

Will also remove True Damage from it, plus changing Eye the way mentioned above and increasing his Sight to 1800/1200. Also thinking of tweaking his Stats / Statgain, but for now I am too lazy for anything. Will edit it tomorrow / some day after that.

Thanks for all the input so far!

[iDrizzt]

Yea for 6 second silences and lots of true damage!

NO

[Vulpes]

Yea for 6 second silences and lots of true damage!

NO

You didn't read. I am just too lazy / got stuff to do atm. This will be completly reworked.

[Apostate]

Bad idea is bad.


NO

[Vulpes]

Bad idea is bad.


NO

No reasoning, and you didn't read either. Are all people stupid?

[Apostate]

How do you know I didn't read it? I did read it. I just think your idea accomplishes nothing.

[Vulpes]

How do you know I didn't read it? I did read it. I just think your idea accomplishes nothing.

You didn't read that 2/4 Skills will be reworked, and 1 of these you have not a single clue about how it will look like.

At least you understood that you gave zero reasoning and thus don't help me at all.

[Apostate]

No, I admit that I missed that.


The main reason I didn't help is that I don't want scout to be reworked in the first place. He's fine as he is, in my opinion.

[WolfieeifloW]

I think Scout is fine as is.
In pubs, he gets picked but with the littlest bit of teamwork becomes a useless invis hero.
And usually in pubs either: a) You'll play alone and you're good so you'll easily counter Scout. or b) You play with friends so teamwork is already in place. or c) You can use voice chat to talk to the downies and at least get a little teamwork in place.

In competitive play, I just don't think Scout has a place. And making him do all the true damage, although you've said you'll rework it, just doesn't add up.
There's just way better heroes then him anyways to pick in a real competitive game, and this change, won't change that at all.

[Vulpes]

I think Scout is fine as is.
[..]
In competitive play, I just don't think Scout has a place.

Contradict yourself more :( The game should opt to be balanced.
This means, every hero is either viable competitively (+ hopefully in pubs as well), or incredibly fun to play (Hai Blacksmith).

Since Invisibility gets incredibly weak mid-/lategame (where 180g/200g are 1 second of farm), he needs to be changed to an early game ganker,
who still has decent carrying capabilities or similiar, so he doesn't turn to crap lategame. Disarm makes this easy.

Right now, if you compare him to fe Madman, he has
- No Stun (Madman has an AoE Stun)
- Mediocre Escape ability (Madman has one of the best)
- Crap Initiation - big red dot over your head (Madman got his Stalk/AoE Stun)
- **** Early Game (Try a Madman/Nymph Lane)
- Crap Mid Game (No teamfight capability)
- Weaker Lategame (Disarm + %age ChannelUlt vs Crit + AS/MS increase)
Granted, Madman is too strong, but you get the picture. He is just worse in every aspect, which shouldn't be the case.

Right now, he is a bad hero, no fun to play (except with Codex, but then he is ridiculously bad), plus got one of the lowest Win% even in Pubs.

The only way to Play Scout is to farm like a Carry, Silence in Teamfights and then be worse in Early, Mid AND Lategame than almost all other Carries.

[Apostate]

In late game invisibility is mainly used for the increased attack speed coming out of it.

I agree with you, in a sense. Scout seems almost designed to KS is excellent at it. He serves little purpose in teamfights, asides from an aoe silence. If uberfarmed he can function as a carry, but as you said he is not the best. I think he has more early/mid game potential than you let on, though. His ult is a great initiator for ganks, he provides free easy wards, etc. He surely is not one of the best heroes in the game; I think it would be impossible to achieve perfect balance with all of the heroes.

[WolfieeifloW]

I didn't contradict myself.
Not having a place in Competitive play is not equal to 'not' fine as is.

Although he may need a little boost for his late-game, these changes just aren't what he needs, especially all the true damage.

[diegolais]

arrow not breaking stealth is completely ridiculous.

+999999999999999999

[Snowyowl1]

Just remove the piece of crap, he is designed for noobs and noobs only. Those noobs should go play DotA. Scout, with current abilities and similar, does not fit HoN.

[Vulpes]

That's what I am saying. However, it should work out to change Cooldowns / inherent effects of his abilities to change him to a Roamer/Anti-Carry;
It's just that I got stuff to do atm and want to rework his Starting Stats / Stat gain as well.

[TopolinoDJ]

bad idea

[Vulpes]

First, on basic stuff, I was incredibly stupid.
Changing Magic Damage to True Damage was so useless :D
Magic Armor isn't increased either ofc so it ignores Physical Armor as well, 'countering' AGI anyways.
Removed the True Damage, except on Disarm (because having Magic Damage there would not only make no sense, but also be hard countered by Shrunken Head)

Also understood that Arrow not breaking Invisibility doesn't look too balanced.


VERSION 2 IS UP NOW! WITH 100% MORE COOLNESS.


Changes to Version 1.5:

- Added Stat Changes. +1 Base Str, +0.1 Str Gain, -0.1 Agi Gain, +1 Base Int
- Increased his Night Sight to 1200, up from 800. Now shared highest Night sight.

- Vanish Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds, down from 20 seconds
- Vanish Strike Reveals
- Vanish Strike doesn't deal True Damage no more
- Vanish applies a DoT rather than a Slow

- Reduced Cast Time of Electric Eye to 0.7 seconds, down from 0.8
- Eye doesn't reveal Invisible Units anymore
- Eye gained Insight: Unique modificator, that allows to distinguish Illusions from the Real Hero, as well as reveal Cooldowns on enemy Items
- Eye 'jolting' doesn't Silence anymore
- Eye 'jolting' now reduces both Attack- and Movement Speed by a fair amount

- Disarm (or rather: Opening!) got a fixed %age for True Damage: 35%, up from 15% / 20% / 25% / 30%
- Taking into consideration that Disarm has to proc before Opening got the actual chance to do so, 'real' proc chance goes like 10% / 14% / 18% / 21%.

- Marksman Shot Range is back to 1500 / 2000 / 2500, from 1000 / 2000 / 3000
- Marksman Shot now pushes the Target 150 Units (in the direction the arrow flew) on impact
- Marksman Shot DoT increased
- Wounded duration decreased to 5 / 6 / 7, down from 7 at all Levels



:scou: :scou: :scou: :scou: :scou: :scou: :scou: :scou: :scou: :scou: :scou:
! FEEL FREE TO DISCUSS VERSION 2 NOW !
- All somehow justified suggestions / inputs / criticisms are highly appreciated -


Possibly Incoming:
- Further Stat tweaks, way to better Base Stats / Less Stat Gain, as well as More Str (mainly), Less Agi (mainly). He needs to be somewhat beefy as a Ganking Melee.

- Vanish Mana Cost increase
- Vanish Damage Increase

- Further reducements of Electric Eye's casting time
- Longer duration (after all, now its a 'weak' slow rather than a Silence)*
- If Insight isn't liked, either remove the "See Cooldowns on Items" part, or change it back to revealing Invis Units

- Some minor tweaks at the Proc%.
- Maybe remove the concept of Opening and have the True Damage dealt on the Disarm Hit instead**
- Marksman - Range tweaks
- Marksman - Damage tweaks
- Marksman - Slow tweaks
- Possibly remove the Pushing Part of Marksman Shot again (though I like it)

*This is very probable to be changed
**Wouldn't like to change it really, as I find the whole Disarm-Skill to be very nice right now

[Sim0nlee]

I am curious as to why you added a push to his ultimate, whilst I do like the purge like slow and the DoT (Did always wonder why the enemy was 'poisoned' with all that green stuff coming out of him and just rumbling down a lane) I fail to see how the knockback, especially such a short one, provides an answer, if any, to scouts current problems.

The impression I get of your version of disarm is alot weaker than his current crit-disarm. True it has a decent chance to deal true damage but without the bonus from 'vanish' i suspect we'd see alot more elder parasite or attack speed whoring scouts for a steroid skill that doesn't really buff him as such. And it's as you said it works out to about 21% for a 100 true damage...? I'm not sure what the specific armour is on most heroes but I suspect you do more damage with a 2X crit.

Not against Agi you say? Too bad they're disarmed. I feel your disarm is trading off damage against softer targets for harder ones almost, as well as loosing his attack speed buff from vanish doesn't really bode well.

I really don't like your idea for vanish, or at least the disarm/silence for 3 whole seconds. As much as I seldom play scout I'd prefer a 1 second cooldown on the toggle to prevent me f***ing it up and reappearing again rather than a disarm and silence for 3 seconds which I can only see as impairing him further. True whilst your reasoning for a 'vanish' is sound as in he should vanish as such, I would prefer to think of it as more of a namesake rather than defining the skill.

Also not sure why you couldn't roll with a 20/30/40/50 DoT. Care to elaborate for me?

I like the fact you're trying to make scout useful again but the simple fact of the matter is he is very much overshadowed by many other picks. If he's meant to scout he's gonna need a bit more help. Off the top of my head perhaps a flare launched from his crossbow granting los of an area? Probs a bad idea but hey i'm just theorising.

Just my 2isk's worth.

[Vulpes]

I am curious as to why you added a push to his ultimate, whilst I do like the purge like slow and the DoT (Did always wonder why the enemy was 'poisoned' with all that green stuff coming out of him and just rumbling down a lane) I fail to see how the knockback, especially such a short one, provides an answer, if any, to scouts current problems.

Well.. I just like knockbacks, and there are only few currently in the game :X
It would make his Ganking stronger, while taking more skill then simply a hefty Slow, and without adding a real Stun.
If you run up from below, the enemy essentialy has 150 Units more to run, while if you 'stupidly' attack from the top, he will even be aided in escaping.
Found it to be the only real possibility to make his Ult actually a threatening weapon (though the enemy gets 2 free seconds to run..)


The impression I get of your version of disarm is alot weaker than his current crit-disarm. True it has a decent chance to deal true damage but without the bonus from 'vanish' i suspect we'd see alot more elder parasite or attack speed whoring scouts for a steroid skill that doesn't really buff him as such. And it's as you said it works out to about 21% for a 100 true damage...? I'm not sure what the specific armour is on most heroes but I suspect you do more damage with a 2X crit.People playing him wrong is not the heroes fault ;) Slither is not to blame for people building Shield Breaker on him, either. Strong Items on the 'new' Scout would be Frostburn and FrostWolfSkull, as they boost what he wants to do.
As stated, he should be mainly an Anti-Carry (thus Disarm only Procs if your Enemy is attacking). A level25 Dark Lady has a Base Agility of 97, thats 13.58 Armor or 45% Physical Damage reduction, thus the True Damage almost equals a 2x Crit. If you take +Agi Items, possibly a HotBL and similiar into consideration, you'll end up with True Damage to deal more than a 2x Crit lategame.
Mind that this doesn't only deal Damage, but also take your opponent out of the fight for 2 Seconds, greatly reducing his damage output, assisting your team mates. Though I guess the Proc% can be upped a bit.


Not against Agi you say? Too bad they're disarmed. I feel your disarm is trading off damage against softer targets for harder ones almost,That's intended ;)


as well as loosing his attack speed buff from vanish doesn't really bode well.I see that - just wanted to make Vanish useful early game, and Autoattacks are just weak at levels 1-7.
By the time the current Vanish's Effect (the Flurry) gets useful, the main Effect (Stealth) is crappy.


I really don't like your idea for vanish, or at least the disarm/silence for 3 whole seconds. As much as I seldom play scout I'd prefer a 1 second cooldown on the toggle to prevent me f***ing it up and reappearing again rather than a disarm and silence for 3 seconds which I can only see as impairing him further. True whilst your reasoning for a 'vanish' is sound as in he should vanish as such, I would prefer to think of it as more of a namesake rather than defining the skill.Mhh~hh. With 15 Seconds Cooldown and you most probably initiating with it, I don't really see where it hurts so much. But I suppose, if it doesn't hurt, I can as well reduce it to 1 second.


Also not sure why you couldn't roll with a 20/30/40/50 DoT. Care to elaborate for me?Cosmetic purposes :p Find it to look better this way.


I like the fact you're trying to make scout useful again but the simple fact of the matter is he is very much overshadowed by many other picks. If he's meant to scout he's gonna need a bit more help. Off the top of my head perhaps a flare launched from his crossbow granting los of an area? Probs a bad idea but hey i'm just theorising.The Main Problem with Scout is his Ultimate.
While I believe he was designed to be a Ganker/Carry (Stealth pretty much shows this), his Ult is just utterly useless.
Telling your opponent "Hey, I am gonna gank you in 3 seconds!" is ridiculous, as is idling in Teamfights for the same amount to get some lackluster Nuke off.

The general concept of the Scout -
Fast Moving, Perma Invisible, Free Wards that help in Teamfights, a passive that takes out Carries -
All seems to fit for a Ganker/(Semi-)Carry/AntiCarry;
Basically someone that manages to keep the enemy Carry low on farm, while Semi-Carrying himself.

Then there is his Ultimate.. and it's just so bad :(
Due to him being too much of a Carry (Statwise),
and having neither Stun nor Slow, he can't really gank early on -
And after level6, he is a walking "Get back! You are in danger!" To your enemies.
Only thing I found his Ult useful for was abusing the 1500 Range and running between to lanes, Using Ult / Cancelling it before the Shot the whole time, but that can't really be it's purpose.

Thanks for the input so far :)
Still trying to find any use for his Ultimate. Would love to see the Red Dot removed and then rework it completly, but I fear this won't happen ever :/

E: What I would soooo love would his Ult being an Ultimate version of Windrunners' Shackleshot (DotA (http://www.playdota.com/heroes/windrunner#skill189)).
Remove the stupid red dot, have a small channeling time as well as the push, and if they are pushed to a Unit/Tree, add a longer stun.
This would fit the theme, be an awesome ability, be unique (at least in HoN) and simply sooo good for Ganking purposes, plus require Skill!
Love the Idea <3

Overall this is a very poorly thought out hero. I don't see any place for it in hon. Poor skill synergy, unoriginal cookie cutter skills, etc... doesn't bring anything "new" to the game, in fact, after reading this post, I don't think I would ever pick this hero simply because the playstyle looks so boring.

[DentMan06]

In competitive play, I just don't think Scout has a place. And making him do all the true damage, although you've said you'll rework it, just doesn't add up.
There's just way better heroes then him anyways to pick in a real competitive game, and this change, won't change that at all.

WHAT?! I fail to understand how changing "this" won't change "that" at all works. The whole point of making "that" work IS to change "this."

I'm sick of hearing people talk about how "fine the way he is" Scout is, but on the other hand stating that he has no place in competitive play! This is just ignorant (and let's not forget counter-intuitive). If all you hardcore HoN players are so okay that a hero isn't suitable for competitive play, then why don't we all just see what the best teams are using for lineups and ALL FALL IN LINE.

I think the idea of a scout-like character seems awesome. I think he looks badass. I WANT TO PLAY SCOUT. It's sad to see how many close-minded, ignorant a-holes on here say "he's fine the way he is" when he isn't picked in competitive play... or say NOTHING constructive to the OP.

Get off your high horses. At least he's trying to make a progressive move to improve a character he likes. What have YOU done besides ***** and flame on a forum?! REAL CONSTRUCTIVE.

[Vulpes]

sirDIESALOT: I can only do so much with what S2 has given me. I'd rather build a 'Scout' from Scratch :(
He would have something like TBs / Wraiths Ult.. or at least a Skill similiar to Tormented Soul..
something to let him Scout without suiciding or having Wards that either pale in comparison to KotFs one, are horribly overpowered, or not used primarily as a Warding tool :/

I believe 'my' Scout here to be much more fun than the current one.
Also the only Skill Synergy he lost was Flurry / Crit.
I know he is still far from anything viable, but please give suggestions :(
I really want to have a Scout thats Good..

DentMan06: <3.

[TURBORUS]

Scout needs a total rework rather than a slight remake.

Give him stuff like farsight etc from DotA, global hero reveal (in the same way that TB's ulti does, but without the damage) etc - make him feel more like a scouty hero than one that you only take when you're messing around or playing against bad pubs.

And I don't see what you retards have a problem with someone trying to come up with their own ideas.

I believe 'my' Scout here to be much more fun than the current one.obviously this is what you believe, no need to tell me. fact of the matter is that your suggstion is not up to scratch. your changes are boring and unoriginal which is why they will never be implemented. leave hero designs to people who know what they are doing, you will save yourself a lot of time.

[toastedguy]

okay the only thing I like about op is the electric eye doing an aoe slow, but besides that its all a horrible idea

[Trckehzauruz]

Scout is still not a original name for someone that just bashes everyone to death in 1.2 secs lategame. Rename to "Awesome_Stealth_Killer95" please?
And yea, giving him a sniper skill that actually requires some skill would be enough to nerf this overpowered hero. :)

[yyr_]

He doesnt have the mana early game to use vanish

His best skill was eyes due to AoE silencer now its gone.

Truestrike is imba

3 revealing skills is imba, have you noticed that EVERY revealing spell in the game was removed v. early into beta? They only left ultis that had reveal. Why? because reveal means you target cannot escape, same reason they penalise dust and wards with a stack cap.

Scout may need a change, but i dont think this is it.

[Vulpes]

He would use Vanish for about 5 seconds. See someone out of place, Vanish, run up, attack;
Though I guess silence/disarm time has to be reduced for that.

You could also say: His only Skill are Eyes, which are so OP that they change him from the worst hero in the game to a usual terrible one.
I'd prefer to have 4 good Skills than 3 **** and 1 that is horribly overpowered

You know what True Strike is? Oo
It's what Savage Mace (never bought) gives you, it hits through Evasion.
So, you are capable of hitting a) someone with Wingbow b) Zephyr.

It are two revealing Spells (as you noticed, Eyes don't reveal anymore).
Also, revealing on NonUlts: Legionnaire, Thunderbringer, Puppet (?), Defiler/TDL (Silence), possibly more Stuns.
Reveal doesn't mean you can't escape Oo And Revelation Wards don't have a Stack Cap (ok maybe 10 or smth, but nobody buys this many)

toastedguy: Care to elaborate why?

sirDIESALOT: Still no reason, plus as I stated, you can only do so much with what is given. He will be a Hero with a PermaInvis, Wards, a Passive, and a SingleTargetNuke-Ult. He will always be "unoriginal" and "boring". Unless he is made from scratch, but this is even more unlikely to happen.

jesus_tks: As I noted, don't believe this to happen.
Best thing I hope for is his Ult to be replaced / rapidly reworked, as it just contradicts Ganking by such an horrible amount

sirDIESALOT: Still no reason, plus as I stated, you can only do so much with what is given. He will be a Hero with a PermaInvis, Wards, a Passive, and a SingleTargetNuke-Ult. He will always be "unoriginal" and "boring". Unless he is made from scratch, but this is even more unlikely to happen.all of scouts current skills are pretty original and make for some interesting gameplay. the same can't be said for your pathetic attempt at a "remake" which has failed on too many levels to describe. like I said, leave hero design to people who have a clue. nah mean?

[Simba]

I stopped reading after you cried about how Scout only has one skill that scouts.

Clearly Vanish and Electric Eyes don't both scout fairly effectively.

Your suggestions on improving this lackluster hero could be good (probably not), but I'll never know.

[BarneyGumbal]

I don't like your change in playing style at all. You might find him boring, but I love to play Scout.

Also, your comparison between Scout's role now and your Scout's role is just ridiculous. Could you atleast learn to play Scout properly before you attempt a remake.

[volcan33]

yes for disarm and marksman shot (without the push and if he can cast while vanish)
no for eletric eye and vanish, the silence from eletric eye is pretty useful, since one of his core rolls is brutalizer or/and frostburn an extra ms reduction is not needed, i think the slow from marksman is enough.

[Streaks]

Yes.

[Vulpes]

Just let this thread die.

His Ultimate needs a complete rework, he will never be useful as a Ganker who tells his enemies he is incoming.
S2 won't ask for help to rework Scout, and given how many Hero Suggestions are implemented, this won't be cared about anyways.

Seeing what they did with Engineer and eagerly anticipating the Zephyr rework,
I highly doubt they won't touch Scout later as well, so I will just sit and wait it out.
They'll do a good job. Only Suggestion I am dropping here now is: Make his Ult be a better version of Windrunners Shackleshot.

I'm out. - Bye.

E: Oh boy, just had a Discussion about Scout and I would so love him to be a Semi-Port of Lanaya with the Shackleshot-Ult.
Maybe I'll revive this just because it sounds so darn awesome.

[P4lm]

Crap

I'd like to see techies' mines and like a reveal spell that reveals a spot on map. Skills that encourage/make it easier for scout to steal other players' kills or go around soloing/doing nothing should be replaced with something useful for the team.

[Vulpes]

Techies Mines would fit nicely with his Savage 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbCxChie-7s) Version (00:42).

[Santa]

This sucks. Sorry dude, you did not fix scout.

[KazeTanade]

I agree with you on the ulti being modelled after Shackles, that I feel is an extremely good idea~ Especially with the fact that the current ulti can be used as a KSing tool, or as a initiator where the ganks will get the kill but not the carry (i.e. scout) unless of course, you cast it right beside him, but I dont think you get Flurry then, which is where most of his dmg comes from.

By making it similar to shackles, you can do some physical damage and a stun which sets up attacks very well for you and your teammates, but actually doesnt screw you up badly because of that.

Now, if we could rework Vanish to produce a disarm/silence in a 200/300 range radius from Scout for about 2 or 3 seconds upon its breaking disregarding the circumstances of breaking (kind of like throwing a smoke bomb, NH. XD), I find that Scout's survivability can be boosted by quite an amount, and it allows to replace the 3rd skill (Disarm) for a more scout/vision friendly skill and take away that x2 crit, since his overall utility would only THEN become a ganker which isnt overly OP. I'm neutral on the standing of keeping Flurry, as I would quite like to keep it, but dont know if the skill would be too OP then.

The electric eye is a bit of a dowsy; you have a placing range of, melee range now in the current one, and a... 4 second silence upon activation. Although I can see the utility in it, I find a 4 second silence to be a tad bit underwhelming for a character meant to be a carry, but can only attack 4 quick strikes; it makes his overall team utility quite useless, as he wont even get in range to use it in a team fight when it comes to competitive play (wards/eye/dust). Therefore I think the Electric Eye should be changed to dispelling(including illusions) function and a slight slow. The hardness of landing it off doesnt decrease, but now it becomes a strong support in that it dispels illusions and any buffs (such as Jeze's or maybe Accursed, not sure what counts as a buff or not) within its range, giving a small slow (like maybe 10 or 15%). Enlargening its range also wouldnt be bad, but a prop like that would be alright for the current 300 range anyway, I think; cant make it include everyone, right?

As for the third skill. As we dont have the Troll in HoN, being able to switch between a range hero and a melee hero would be a unique thing and I feel would change Scout's playing style. For example, giving him the use of a bow which is poisoned tip (maybe some, 20/25/30/35 DoT and a 5/10/15/20% slow) but with lower damage makes him a more utilizable ganker as you are actually able to keep them in place while you and your teammates deal him off. Going melee however might increase his attack speed by 10/20/25/30% while adding a status effect like Wounded (recieves 10 or 20% more physical damage for 3 seconds), letting him take advantage of Vanish and the Electric Eye without being exclusively Vanish-Flurry-Eye-Autoatk-Vanish-Flurry style of it.

In this way, you could say he becomes a useful semi-carry like Valkyrie which functions to early-to-mid, and the synchro of his skills isnt THAT bad off. It's slightly more balanced than the synchro S2 pulls onto Maliken/Panda, for example. ~_~ He has a stun, 1 silence skill for survival, and 2 slows, and 1 carry function; but none of them being ultimately OVERLY powerful.

[Escorponox]

revamp him to dota sniper.

[Nytemair]

Remember that the Scout was originally from Savage. In S2 his stealth lasted 60 seconds, his backstab was active, and very difficult to aim. His eye couldn't silence, and his crossbow shot was rapid fire and utterly weak. Do you want the old scout back? xD

[TheLastOpus]

revamp him to dota sniper.
The only thing he and dota's sniper have in comon is the ultimate, he is more like bounty hunter

[Rommi]

Marksman shot rmk for the win !
Equals Less tanks and Less Carry KSing . ... well actually it doesn't but that Marksman Shot is genious !

[Charade]

up vote this thread. how scout should be.

[whistle]

Down vote, work on a remake for a character who needs it... Like rampage.

[These_Balls]

scout has been proven to be very viable in competitive play

[Vulpes]

scout has been proven to be very viable in competitive play

That's why this thread had no post for a month.

Also I still find that he is in somewhat of a dire need for a remake,
since his Ult is just bullcrap (to balance out his ridiculously good Eyes).

It will be really difficult to tell people that a scarcely picked hero needs a big rework, so I just thought of letting this die.

[nakke]

He is balanced as he is. Just because you play with scout player that run around invis 24/7 doesnt mean he needs a rework

[RussianValor]

First, if you think scout hasn't proved himself in competitive play how about you watch the Check 6 Tournament Finals tiebreaker, with a huge sponsorship on the line.
Match ID: 26676370

Second, there's almost no hero that doesn't excel in at least one role, if not more. It all depends on how you play that hero. If you know what you're doing, and you don't fail at picking a good team (too lazy to think up suggestions) scout can be a little overpowered if they don't counter him correctly. Also, in order to counter him, the other team (in order to counter effectively) will have to spend 1 to 2k gold + on wards, dust, eyes and the like.

Third, the comment about no synergy. It should be entirely too obvious that flurry and disarm have almost ridiculously perfect synergy. In addition, the silence granted by detonating an eye is enough for your cooldown on vanish to end, so if you flurry/detonate/ult someone right next to you, no one in the range of the silence can do anything about it besides auto attack if they aren't disarmed. You get a kill, and you away safe (presuming they don't have dust/eye/pesti at the fight).
Also, scout does work in team fights. His ult finishes off the weak ones trying to run away, and also serves as great initiation if you target a key hero like a support or a disabler or a nuker right before a team fight (who is probably squishy in the first place). I've been saved by scout's ult before too. In one game, i was under 40 hp, and a scout ulted a dark lady that would have inevitably caught up with me and raped me before i got to the tower. His 6 second aoe silence is extremely powerful if you land that right before a battle (gg right there), and the amount of dps he puts out (once farmed) is great. Just because you can be invis doesn't mean you HAVE to be invis all the time. The sheer fact that you aren't invis means people will target you, and that can be used to your advantage. Now nobody likes the ks'ing in pubs, but even in pubs i find i prefer winning to my k/d. 0 and 12 and victory is still victory, if not even more so a victory, because you died 12 times and they couldn't do anything about it. And i don't even play scout that much. People under-appreciate the power he has and hate when anyone chooses him, and i prefer to go support or a tank or a disabler anyways because everyone always wants to be the carry and i'm not so good at it anyways.

On the topic of your suggestions, i don't see how your vanish rework is any good. First of all, with a frostburn (which you should get 80% of the time) you already inflict a slow, and without the stupid DoT, you do more damage with a flurry. Flurry scales late game. A tiny little 196 damage DoT does not. The ability to vanish in the middle of a fight for a semi-instant 4 hits (which should be dealing runed axe splash and chilling target) is the one of the abilities that lets him stay in teamfights in the first place. Taking away scout's silence takes away his best ability, and true damage wouldn't make up for it. Adding all these ministuns to a hero with a disarm semi-bash who should already be farming a brutalizer or savage mace if not a frostburn or runed axe just doesn't make any sense to me. Making the marksman shot apply 75% slow decreasing over 7 seconds is ridiculous and the revealed is a useless buff. I never saw a problem with marksman shot how it is. Some people say ks's, i say the carry should be getting the kills anyways.

I simply don't see why scout needs a rework at all. People just need to realize his potential, and learn how to use him effectively.

[Vulpes]

No, you don't get Frostburn on Scout. This thread was last edited before the first Scout match. You could also read the post two above yours.

And I still dislike his whole concept. A Hardcarry that is completly ungankable and got 2 scaling abilities, that just doesn't sound right.

I'll just edit the Thread title to show this is on hiatus.