[2.6.10] Nullstone

[Doomhammar]

Nullstone at it's current state is widely used in both comp and pub scene. It has never been changed(Really, never ever) and is very powerful

In my opinion it could use some nerfs/changes/whatever but lets get on with the real discussion

Nullstone is relatively easy to build with 2x 875g, 2100g items and 1000g recipe (4850g). But gives a passive ability that is very powerful.
When looking at it's cost and comparing to other items of the same category (Survivability, Regen) It can pretty much outshine every other item.
In example, comparing it to the new Icon of the Godess, it only costs 1550 more, but gives way more hp,mana and regen for the gold spent making it.

But the real part where Nullstone outshines just about every item is spellblock. IMO it has to be the most OP part of the item as it can basically take a huge dump so many heroes, in example Nomad, DM, Predator.

Just recently when I was watching some competitive play, I was quite frankly stunned at the fact that this item has never been changed. Heroes like Forsaken Acher were going over 500gpm with no trouble just by picking up Nullstone, as their manaregen could take the AoE spell spam.

Is Nullstone balanced? I think it's about time we start discussing it.

[Antimodus]

I think it's fine that an item like this exists, but, kinda like FWS used to, it gives too many incidental benefits. We could eliminate the free +5 all stats that come with the recipe. Spell block is easily worth the recipe cost alone, and it already has the uber-efficient blessed orb as a component.

[zstarkey42]

I'm guessing Nullstone is one of those few 'core' items that the game was designed around, and is most likely taken into account for most heros balance, much like PK and SH. One of the best things about it is the common buildup with other strong items - there were games where I changed my mind and made a sheepstick instead after getting the blessed orb and manatube - note that these items are alry gold efficient and a worthy pickup for laning (Sustainer). As for the spell block, it's arguably the best passive ability in the game meaning that you either negate 1 useful spell from your opponents (in case they have more than 1 useful targeted spell, say Witch Slayer or BH, but most of the times that is enough to negate said hero altogether when they need to chain 2 spells to be effective), or your entire enemies arsenal altogether (in case he has only 1 target-table spell - this effectively hard counters a few one-trick heros hard, like Rampage or Predator. There is almost no reason why you wouldn't want one for defensive purposes, and there are very few times the spellblock doesn't turn to be highly useful throughout the game. However, changing this will most likely mess with the entire game's balance. Changing items is always a delicate process, because it technically affects every hero's balance in the game.

What I think is that even though the item is somewhat 'overpowered' in benefits, there will always be a (hopefully small) set of items that is just too good to be ignored where the game's balance revolves at, assuming people are going to use them consistently. Think about it, items like Bottle or Mana Battery give you tons of benefits for their extremely low cost, and are viable during most of the game on almost every hero, and nobody really complains about them. Nullstone is not really different. It provides meaningful stats for carries/semi carries while acting as a powerful defense during the whole game. The recipe costs 1000 gold, and all it basically does is slightly increase the individual stats from all 3 items while adding the spell shield effect. Is 1000g too cheap for such an effect for the whole game? Probably is in almost any situation, but it's also one of the best counters to certain heros, and those need to exist after all. Nullstone can also be countered by cheap single target skills (deadwood's throw, sucubus leech, or even push tablets which are a common pickup).

However, even with the high stat gain + passive, this item also comes with a high mana regen component. It does make some heros able to farm a lot after they get it with little to no downtime (there's even a health regen on it). It's especially noticeable on heros like Silhouete, Valk or FA that abuse their skills to farm stacked camps and ancients quickly, so the item pays off relatively fast. That's what I find to be a bit too much imo. An item that counters single-target based heros is fine, and even gives solid survival and damage to add (25 damage regardless of what attribute your hero is), combined with some attack speed/armor. Making it also a great GPM booster on some heros is probably too much. I'm guessing maybe there weren't as many fast-farmer heros when the item was initially ported from DoTa so this wasn't an issue, but I'm not sure... I think the only 'nerf' the item could need is on the regen values. Right now it's basically the same as a Runed Cleaver for ranged heros with MUCH more survivability added to it. Plus, it probably outshadows RC for most melees 90% of the time.

[Phasmy]

This item has definitely not been the same as it is now. It actually used to be both cheaper and more powerful. (Recipe cost was 825 and it used to reduce the cooldown of nullstone by 1 second for each ability cast on you) The mana regen was also nerfed recently from 200% to 150%.

Shrunken will still prove more protection in a teamfight than nullstone will ever be able to do. The recipe price could be increased to around 1200 but it would still be a great first item.

[LordTroll]

Gosh, please don't nerf this anymore. It will become utterly terrible except to counter very specific strats, and even then it will cost a lot.

[MegaMan_X`]

It was also nerfed when the blue glowing effect was added, now your opponents know when it is up or down.

[DrPeckers]

Your forgetting the fact that the spell block is countered by Tablet of Command, an item with half the gold cost. Whenever I am on a supportish hero and I see the enemy carry or mid building a nullstone, I always get Tablet of Command and laugh when they wonder why all my team's single target abilities fly through their nullstone.

[Korges]

LEAVE IT. Null stone is ok

[foxmindedguy]

Although I personally think Nullstone is fine, but I can see why someone would want the extra +5 all stats to be gimped from such an item. Illustrating some comparisons below:

Comparing the Item with other Sustainers Items:

So basically seeing what Sustainer builds into and how the finished product stats improve from the sum of its components.
(1) Rune Cleaver: Gets +14 attack damage, +1 HP Regeneration and +25% Mana Regeneration upon completion.
(2) Sacrificial Stone: +10% Mana Regeneration, +25 Health per charge, -0.25 HP regeneration per charge and a flat +1 mana regeneration per charge instead of 10% incremental increases. (I will not go over the death timer thing because we are talking about stats here, not effects).
(3) Restoration Stone: +15 attack damage.
(4) Nullstone: +5 all stats, +1 hp regeneration, 25% mana regeneration.

I can see the stat gain disparity between these items, but would hold any judgments because each item has a different effect and some are stronger than the others.

Comparing the Blessed Orb Items:

So basically seeing what Blessed Orb builds into and how the finished product stats improve from the sum of its components.
(1) Frost Wolf Skull: +4 strength, +5 agility and +5 intelligence.
(2) Geometer's Bane: Absolutely zilch.
(3) Sheepstick: 100% mana regeneration.
(4) Nullstone: +5 all stats, +1 hp regeneration, 25% mana regeneration.

Again, there is stat gain disparity here but as effects are different I will restrain from passing any verdicts.

Comparing Spell Blocking Items:

So basically seeing what Blessed Orb builds into and how the finished product stats improve from the sum of its components.
(1) Shrunken Head: Absolutely Zilch.
(2) Void Talisman: Can't say for certain, but we can take 3 estimates:


- Minor Totem estimate: +1 all stat = 53g. Which means Void Talisman +7 all stat should be around 371g and also by this estimation Void Talisman is -21 all Stats below what it should be (under-estimation because this methodology does not take into account inventory free-up pricing etc).
- Major Totem estimate: +1 all stat = 135g. Which means Void Talisman +7 all stat should be around 945g and also by this estimation Void Talisman is -4 all Stats below what it should be (under-estimation because this methodology does not take into account inventory free-up pricing etc).
- Blessed Orb estimate: +1 all stat = 210g. Which means Void Talisman +7 all stat should be around 1470g and also by this estimation Void Talisman is +0.14 all Stats ABOVE what it should be (over-estimation because this methodology does not take into account inventory free-up pricing etc).

(3) Storm Spirit: +25 movement speed.
(4) Nullstone: +5 all stats, +1 hp regeneration, 25% mana regeneration.

Based on the above three comparison mechanisms, you decide whether or not Nullstone's +5 all stats should be gimped or not?

[Tomate]

The issue with Null Stone is that it just fits perfectly into the needs of many heroes due to its well rounded stats.

Heroes like Valk, Hag, FA, Madman (unseen lately but hey) and so on are heroes with high mobility but who are fairly squishy. They cannot go pure damage like a Cleaver or such as their first item... So, picking up this item provides them a decent damage output with the +30 damage damage it provides (15 from stats... don't call me out) and all the regen they need to be able to keep going for ever when farming with skills.

The issue is pretty much that the versatility combined with high mobility is a very deadly mid game combo that allows those heroes to transition into late game. Even lategame, the item remains useful due to the spell block...

Same could be argued about Geometer, only difference is that Geo is MUCH more useful on ranged with the exception of magebane I guess...

[Fen__]

Comparing items serving completly diferent purposes is a bit pointless.



I belive that nullstone is 1 of more balanced items. Although it can be a hard counter to some heroes, many heroes with reasonably worthless single target skills are hard counter to nullstone as well making it balanced.


Another story is that metioned before items like stomrspirit or tablet counters spellblock as well, while being at the same time extremly usefull overall. Its not like you have to buy a trash item to counter a nullstone.



Stat gains on null are mediocare. For 5k gold you gain only 300 hp 15 dmg/ias (ill stop here because null is in 90% of time item bought on a carry and they mostly aim for those bonuses) which is low compared to lets say geo bane which adds same ammount of hp and significant increase of carry potential via dps/speed increase.


I belive that nullstone and geometer bane are very similar items in terms of what they do for carries so comparision of both can be usefull.

We should ask ourself a question, what would we prefer, Spellblock or ilusions on a carry ?

In 90% of game scenarios i would prefer ilusions since they offer great dmg increase, scouting ability, tanking/pushing towers etc. At the same time with proper usage activation of geo bane can serve as a semi-spellblock which can disjoint all single target projectiles.


So last unmentioned before aspect of nullstone is the hp/mp regen. Some belive that this is a nullstone source of opness, but in my oppinion those attributes are the factors making nullstone viable. If nullstone would lose it regens, people would probably stop buying it and getting geo bane instead in 99% of scenarios.

[foxmindedguy]

_Fen: I mentioned that each item has different effects (as in serve different purposes), hence my withholding of any judgment. I posted my analysis here, just for interest-sake and see if really Nullstone components outdo the others. That doesn't mean it should necessarily be nerfed, but compiling distantly relevant information is not bad.

[sharbarachu]

Nullstone is in a very good place right now. I think the bigger issue is one of burst/ward power/initiation power in that if you DON'T build defensive items you simply die before doing anything on a carry.

It's more or less mandatory to do Helm, Shrunken, or Nullstone as first or second item on every single carry, and a majority of semi-carries (pk sometimes takes precedence here). Don't expect this to change unless the meta-game is shifted away from burst-initiation.

[`11411181]

Comparing Geometer's Bane to Nullstone is about as fruitless as comparing Shrunken Head to the same items. Most of the heroes we see Nullstone first on generally are weak to blinkhex initiation and have inbuilt escape mechanisms - so it's always about negating the first disable to allow yourself the reaction time to escape. Nullstone being passively defensive like that is its biggest drawcard, not necessarily how good its actual effect is.
A lot of the more popular gankers actually bypass Nullstone entirely for their primary function, or have the easiest time circumventing it (Pebbles, Deadwood, Tundra).
Had old Sacrificial Stone existed, I could have made a side-by-side comparison as to how negating a leading stun equated to more effective HP than the difference a Sacrificial Stone provided in raw HP while providing the same level of mana regen - but that's kinda redundant now.

[Soulstealah`]

http://www.hon-utilities.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/hon-Tablet_of_Command.gif

[Reldnahc]

An item with a specific purpose that is supported by generalized stats. Literally any hero could make use of the stats provided on this item unlike other items with specific purposes such as Nullfire Blade. Its effect is great on its own, but the stats are what make the item so widespread. It is appealing to all heroes in the circumstance there is something of worth to block on the opposing team.

[Farosarg]

You also have to remember that it is a pretty costly item. It's block effect being strongest early on before people are able to build counters to it and the roaming happens generally with less than full squad. Furthermore you generally want the regen nice and early along with the stats to go. that is a long time making the item, especially if you are struggling for farm. The build-up is not the worst but with other options being HotBL, new Sac-stone and such that you can build nice and fast and then move onto the core items, it certainly isn't the auto-choise item either. Personally I find myself going it in more rare cases where it's a clear pick-up and look for alternatives the rest of the time. Obviously it is a different case when you are already either snowballing or getting free-farm due to laning situation.

I wouldn't be nerfing the item considering the early-game opportunity cost and with the other options come late-game, leaving the item a good situational item. Also sometimes you just don't fix things when they are not broken so while "has not being touched" and "picked both in pubs and competitive" are good reasons to take a look at an item, doesn't mean that any changes should be done.

[`blackbird`]

It gives carries some protection because of how long the CD for shrunken is. It basically makes it so that it takes more than 1 person (fayde/pebbles/parasite/deadwood/etc) to gank the carry, making for a more balanced game. If null is nerfed or made crappy, then those solo ganking heros will becomes top tier to take down enemy carries with, now, almost every ranged carry makes null just because it's a great item, even if just for hellflower/sheep/etc.

[SirVH]

It's frustrating when your Fayde can't gank that Hag antmore and since Fayde is already item dependent, farm a tablet is hard on a hero like Fayde.

At the same time, it's a relief when you're fighting against a Rampage, or Witch Slayer and stuff. So I guess the item is ok.

[Tupimus]

Stupid how it was buffed so much it's a safe all-rounder for every game with no thought put into it whatsoever.

Before it was buffed it was actually bought because the spell block was actually needed... and now it just happens to be a perk. It doesn't need to be a generalist item.

[Brannock]

The difference between Null Stone in beta and Null Stone now is 10 damage and 325 less gold on the recipe.

The cooldown buff thingy got reverted, the 825 gold price got nerfed upwards to 1000 (where it is now), the extra mana regeneration got reverted.

Are you saying that the 325 extra gold and 10 damage made enough of a difference that Null Stone is now unquestionably better than anything else as a generalist defensive item? Clarity would be appreciated.

[LordTroll]

Some people just seem to be biased into thinking the item is VERY GOOD AND VERSATILE because they see Tralfamadore and bkid building it on valk every single match (hey guess what, 80% of the time it's utterly useless and a stupid money sink, you're better off spending that on many other items). Also the 35 minute level 1 Shieldbreaker, but that's off-topic...

Look, it used to be, but without the "spell lowers cooldown" and insane mana regen it's barely godlike anymore, save for very few heroes. Cry me a river.

[Tupimus]

The difference between Null Stone in beta and Null Stone now is 10 damage and 325 less gold on the recipe.

The cooldown buff thingy got reverted, the 825 gold price got nerfed upwards to 1000 (where it is now), the extra mana regeneration got reverted.

Are you saying that the 325 extra gold and 10 damage made enough of a difference that Null Stone is now unquestionably better than anything else as a generalist defensive item? Clarity would be appreciated.

Considering the kind of heroes it is picked up on, yes, those two things just might be the things taking it over the top.

[Reldnahc]

The difference between Null Stone in beta and Null Stone now is 10 damage and 325 less gold on the recipe.

The cooldown buff thingy got reverted, the 825 gold price got nerfed upwards to 1000 (where it is now), the extra mana regeneration got reverted.

Are you saying that the 325 extra gold and 10 damage made enough of a difference that Null Stone is now unquestionably better than anything else as a generalist defensive item? Clarity would be appreciated.

There could be numerous factors for its popularity. Was it this undiscovered gem that people had generally ignored? Or was it the fact that other generalist defensive items have gotten nerfs? Perhaps it is the influx of many single target heroes with powerful skills that need to be blocked or can go through magic immunity. I doubt the gold recipe change and 10 damage made it such a widely picked up item and there were other, more important factors at work. But I'm sure you know this and just wanted an argument to which it was to base the topic around.

[zstarkey42]

I'm thinking the main reason it's picked up nowdays is because a lot of the popular ranged carries greatly benefit from the mana regen due to their flash farming abilities. Add a carry with escapes, strong spell farming ability to a passive shied absorb and you have a very difficult to gank carry with really high gpm (cough, silhouete, FA, draconis, etc)

[Skyve]

Nullstone is only as strong as the skills it has to block. It's often picked up too much on certain heroes (I remember some competitive games with Silhouette against a team full of AoE stuns and disables with maybe a single, "insignificant", skill being blockable). But the general premise of the item is that it builds out of Sustainer and providing some "comfortable" stats, making the item overall very "comfortable" to get, which is why its often not gotten for it's block primarily.
At this point it basically has only Manaring + HotBL to compete with in terms of items that provide similar things (IoG doesn't provide anything in terms of regen until you are active with it), but unlike those two items, Nullstone grants its mana regen as soon as you aquire the Sustainer, immediately helping your farming (see one of the semi-final or final games from DHS - Era picked up a Sustainer first on Silhouette, but then DIDN'T go for the full nullstone, but rather a shrunken head, because there weren't enough abilities to block, since you can just use shrunken head while frozen by glacius anyways). And especially on "elusive" heroes, the HP part might just not be as important as early.

[GregerMoek]

Some people just seem to be biased into thinking the item is VERY GOOD AND VERSATILE because they see Tralfamadore and bkid building it on valk every single match (hey guess what, 80% of the time it's utterly useless and a stupid money sink, you're better off spending that on many other items). Also the 35 minute level 1 Shieldbreaker, but that's off-topic...

Look, it used to be, but without the "spell lowers cooldown" and insane mana regen it's barely godlike anymore, save for very few heroes. Cry me a river.

I approve this message.

I think it's overrated about as much as Charged Hammer is underrated. Sure, it is comfortable to get, same with other items (such as Frostburn). I don't think Nullstone is a major balance issue in HoN at the moment though, despite competitiors loving it. It's an item to counter another item in most cases (Hellflower).

I am actually more fine with this kind of counter than the Wingbow counter in Savage Mace, even if said Wingbow carrier isn't screwed once opponent has Savage Mace anyway.

[Dominare]

Nullstone is only as strong as the skills it has to block.

I don't think that's entirely true. I believe that it is common simply because it gives the same hp/mana regen as a runed cleaver, but trades the attack damage/splash for stats and the spellblock. Obviously, it also works just as well on ranged heroes, unlike cleaver. This allows your Valk or FA or whoever to spam their relatively cheap skills indefinitely and boost their farm while simultaneously providing gank protection with the bonus hp and block.

I'm not denying that the spellblock is far more useful against certain enemy lineups, and I'm not denying that the effect can easily be countered by tablet which is half the cost - I'm saying that the spellblock effect is absolutely not the primary reason we're seeing this item a lot on these types of heroes. Bottom line, the question we should be asking in this thread is, "Should ranged carries have a runed cleaver equivalent given that they are already inherently advantaged over melee carries?"

I shall leave that one to the floor, but my personal opinion is that nullstone is a -little- too good for the cost.

[LordTroll]

It's obvious that Nullstone has icing on the cake to make it an attractive item. And this icing on the cake has been nerfed quite a lot since the item came to exist in HoN. It doesn't mean it's too good for that reason. Don't know about you, but I don't think I'd ever spend such an high amount of money to get a simple spell block.

[khaz]

Nullstone is only as strong as the skills it has to block. It's often picked up too much on certain heroes (I remember some competitive games with Silhouette against a team full of AoE stuns and disables with maybe a single, "insignificant", skill being blockable). But the general premise of the item is that it builds out of Sustainer and providing some "comfortable" stats, making the item overall very "comfortable" to get, which is why its often not gotten for it's block primarily.
At this point it basically has only Manaring + HotBL to compete with in terms of items that provide similar things (IoG doesn't provide anything in terms of regen until you are active with it), but unlike those two items, Nullstone grants its mana regen as soon as you aquire the Sustainer, immediately helping your farming (see one of the semi-final or final games from DHS - Era picked up a Sustainer first on Silhouette, but then DIDN'T go for the full nullstone, but rather a shrunken head, because there weren't enough abilities to block, since you can just use shrunken head while frozen by glacius anyways). And especially on "elusive" heroes, the HP part might just not be as important as early.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your first sentence. Ever since kuldra's was nerfed some patches back i've noticed hellflower a lot more in competitive and even tmm matches. I find carries often get nullstone just to counter hellflower even if the rest of the enemy team is primarily aoe orientated. Someone else mentioned that its great against heroes who go through shrunken head and there seem to be quite a few running around in terms of popularity lately.

MK, Flux, Kraken, Tundra, Pebbles, Rampage, DS and Panda come to mind. Kraken, Tundra, Pebbles and (sometimes) DS/Flux are interesting in the comp. scene, usually either banned or picked and their SH countering skills are incredibly useful. The other heroes are wildly popular pub/tmm heroes so both the comp. and pub scenes are well covered.

Honestly, I think null is good where its at right now. Its an especially powerful item if you are being initiated upon, nothing like having the beginning of a nuke/stun chain being blocked to initiate a counter gank. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe nerf the mana regen a bit but the rest is fine. Its an item that rewards good defensive play and yet....also rewards good offensive play or comboing if you work around the spell block or remove it before dumping on the hero.

[Q_efx]

Get Tablet and NS ist nulled (:

[rhorne33]

So the item is 4.8k gold, assuming you get boots, maybe a power supply and possibly some vestments you've spent what nearly 7k gold getting close to mid game (15-20mins) on an item that helps you farm and provides some much needed survivability on some heroes. How is this an issue? Lets imagine we have a valk that has built this item and plans to go for a SB next at 18 minutes into the game. For arguments sake lets say exactly upon completion of the nullstone (18:00) this valks gpm hits 450, lvl1 SB cost 2600g, then another 2kg to get lvl3 for a total of 4600g. This means the earliest this player could have that lvl3 SB is at 28 minutes into the game, assuming the instant GPM change which obviously is an exaguration of what actually happens, in reality this would probably take anywhere from 15-20 minutes depending on how much farm the player was actually able to get.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this item is very strong yes, but there are drawbacks to building it first just like any other item. If you build null first, you need to be dedicated to farm and planning to go late game, sure you will be able to "survive" midgame fights but will you be able to kill anyone? What if the other team has an FA with a lvl3 SB at the same time you just finish your nullstone, would you win that battle, better yet would you even be around for it or would you be skill spam farming trying to get some dmg while your team 4v5's?

I personally prefer to play null stone viable heroes (basically any hero with relatively low CD aoe skills) because of the mana regeneration, there should be an item that provides this. I make the choice to sacrifice killing power for farming power and survivability in the hopes that when it hits late game my farm has been amplified enough to take over the game, but this is not always the case and a well organized team applying a lot of early pressure can easily win before you finish anything after your null. There aren't even that many heroes that fall into this category anyways, I can think of eight that you would build this as a first core item Valk, FA, Hag, Defiler, Panda, Sillo, Tort, DR. I would argue all the other heroes have better build options thus don't build it early, instead its only built as a 4.8k spell block which is in no way OP. Even the heroes listed above can build different items first, shrunken maybe on panda, a PK on sillo to go gank fools, and of course big dmg items like SB or S&Y ect...

Nullstone is a farming tool with some defensive stats/abilities that gives players a choice of build order, learn how to make your choices based on your opponents choices and you will be better off, nurfing is not the answer.

[Dominare]

I think you hit the nail on the head with your first sentence.

I explained in the very next post after his why that isn't the case. The spellblock is not the primary reason this item is so popular.

[Nexorian]

The regen is what makes the item. Without the regen and stats, this item would be very very very very very very rarely taken (vs a team of rampage, swift, flint, witch slayer etc)

[khaz]

I explained in the very next post after his why that isn't the case. The spellblock is not the primary reason this item is so popular.

I said I think, not that it was the only reason. :) I do go onto say that possibly the mana regen should be nerfed. Otherwise the item is in a good place I find. As someone who primarily plays support or solo/mid lane it's not my favourite thing to go up against null heavy lineups but there are several work arounds.

[Dominare]

I do go onto say that possibly the mana regen should be nerfed.

Then I believe we have an accord. Good day, sir.

[Doomhammar]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this item is very strong yes, but there are drawbacks to building it first just like any other item. If you build null first, you need to be dedicated to farm and planning to go late game, sure you will be able to "survive" midgame fights but will you be able to kill anyone? What if the other team has an FA with a lvl3 SB at the same time you just finish your nullstone, would you win that battle, better yet would you even be around for it or would you be skill spam farming trying to get some dmg while your team 4v5's?

Most of the carry heroes that build it are semi-carries like Valkyrie or carries like FA who can deal high amount of damage without much damage giving items because of the nukes. Others you listed such as Hag,Defiler,Tort,DR don't need to build damage items that much as their damage is based on spells -> Mana and Survivability are priorities, which are given by the Nullstone

[Jew`Master`]

Nullstone at it's current state is widely used in both comp and pub scene. It has never been changed(Really, never ever) and is very powerful

In my opinion it could use some nerfs/changes/whatever but lets get on with the real discussion

Nullstone is relatively easy to build with 2x 875g, 2100g items and 1000g recipe (4850g). But gives a passive ability that is very powerful.
When looking at it's cost and comparing to other items of the same category (Survivability, Regen) It can pretty much outshine every other item.
In example, comparing it to the new Icon of the Godess, it only costs 1550 more, but gives way more hp,mana and regen for the gold spent making it.

But the real part where Nullstone outshines just about every item is spellblock. IMO it has to be the most OP part of the item as it can basically take a huge dump so many heroes, in example Nomad, DM, Predator.

Just recently when I was watching some competitive play, I was quite frankly stunned at the fact that this item has never been changed. Heroes like Forsaken Acher were going over 500gpm with no trouble just by picking up Nullstone, as their manaregen could take the AoE spell spam.

Like others have been saying alot of the game mechanics are already build around core items like shrunken and nullstone. And they are both fine in their current state.
Is Nullstone balanced? I think it's about time we start discussing it.

Nullstune is quite expensive tbh, and it gives carry heroes very little extra dmg and no cool attack modifier (slow, -armor, etc, like most carrys want to have). And it only works vs certain lineups, which explains why shrunken head is picked so much more in competetive play.

[Theburned]

Nullstone at it's current state is widely used in both comp and pub scene. It has never been changed(Really, never ever) and is very powerful

In my opinion it could use some nerfs/changes/whatever but lets get on with the real discussion

Nullstone is relatively easy to build with 2x 875g, 2100g items and 1000g recipe (4850g). But gives a passive ability that is very powerful.
When looking at it's cost and comparing to other items of the same category (Survivability, Regen) It can pretty much outshine every other item.
In example, comparing it to the new Icon of the Godess, it only costs 1550 more, but gives way more hp,mana and regen for the gold spent making it.

But the real part where Nullstone outshines just about every item is spellblock. IMO it has to be the most OP part of the item as it can basically take a huge dump so many heroes, in example Nomad, DM, Predator.

Just recently when I was watching some competitive play, I was quite frankly stunned at the fact that this item has never been changed. Heroes like Forsaken Acher were going over 500gpm with no trouble just by picking up Nullstone, as their manaregen could take the AoE spell spam.

Is Nullstone balanced? I think it's about time we start discussing it.

You clearly haven't been around too long.

Nullstone was changed for approximatley a year ago, when it became a bit more expensive, upped the cost from 4725g to 4850g

the closest item to nullstone is shrunken head, something which is also considered quite OP.
Both blocks spells, SH all spells while NS only 1 single target spell every 20 seconds.
while both are good you will always have to choose between one of them or you will stand there dealing no damage at all, while they pick off your teammates and 3v5 you after that. Nullstone is a semi situational item, usually worth the pick up, while SH is worth it as long as you are not up against a heavy physical oriented team, panda/ramp/a farmed hard carry.

the pros of nullstone
Useful stats and quite a lot of them.
it's passive (can't be disabled by kuldras/hellflower/any other single target stun, before it's procced)
soaking one singletarget spell meaning that your team has to deal with one spell less for the fight, if not more.

cons of nullstone
quite expensive 4850g is basically riftshards 4
Can be procced by small single target spells like mana drain, tablet of command, and other spells that really doesn't do that much or has short cooldown (inb4 tablet of command does a lot. Ofc it does it just has a small CD)

Pros of shrunken head
makes you invulnurable to the most dangerous and common damage source in the game
leaves most stuns and slows useless against you.
adds a bit damage and hp to your pool

cons of shrunken head
you are still vulnurable to physical damage and stuns, also to superior magic stuns
it has a long cooldown (it goes down though not at the same rate as duration)
duration goes down.
no way to renew the duration back to 10 sec (except for buying a new one which costs you 1950g)

Feel free to add stuff to this list

Nullstone seems fine to me right now, it is expensive and helps accordingly

Shrunken could use a way to get renewed
Suggestions:
Make it so that you buy a recipe and the item is back to it's ordinary state.
or
Add a 2nd or a 2nd and 3rd recipe doing whatever they do, but somehow improving the duration.

[Doomhammar]

You clearly haven't been around too long.

Nullstone was changed for approximatley a year ago, when it became a bit more expensive, upped the cost from 4725g to 4850g


I have been here quite long, but that "nerf" is not anything big for heroes that build it when they can farm the same gold within half a minute.

But after a while I figured out something quite disturbing.
Let's imagine 3 people building shrunken heads, in teamfight they activate them and enemy has either to use physical disables (if avaiable) or just run. But when people build 3 nullstones you get the feeling that you really can't kill anyone as spells are getting heavily absorbed. Just a thought, really.

Maybe if S2 gave us more items that are at the same level as Nullstone, we would have actual variation. Nowdays it's more like get HotBL and SH for melees and get Nullstone for ranged heroes.

[Abster]

Nullstone's passive benifit is necessary for those squishy nukers / carries / initiators etc for them to have a presence in the game after a point. For heros like FA who need to kite enemies to be any use at all, this is a core item.

Or you could just pick arma and take a dump all over the enemy team's nullstones.

[EmptyOne]

I think nullstone is pretty balanced to be honest. It can counter heroes like pyromancer and deadwood wich is really needed. And it's also easy to counter nullstone with deadwoods tree and cheap items such as tablet of command and stormspirit.

[Gorb]

Split opinion(s), no resolution. Archived.