Stats

[moj0j0]

First, i want to introduce myself, I’m a SEA player from Thailand(my country doesn’t speak English as native language so I’m sorry about my poor English) who love HON very much and I have one interesting suggestion to make HON more fun, balance and challenge and that is
“Intelligence STAT should increase magic damage to the hero’s spells, magic armor and duration of effect!”
Reason : due to most player in public usually play AGI or STR based heroes because INT based hero can’t do much in late game (because INT stat only increase base damage, max mana pool and mana regeneration, but the magic damage and effect of their spells don’t get the benefit at all) so I think if Intelligence STAT increase magic damage to the hero’s spells, magic armor and duration of effect would make INT based heroes shinable in late game
Q: How much it effect?
I think 1 INT stat should increase
(in offensive role)
1% of magic spell damage, e.g. base magic spell damage are 100 magic damage, with 1 INT, this spell deal 101 damage instead.
1% of effect of all spell e.g. if spell like stun have 100 second duration(with 0 INT) but with 1 INT stat, the duration of stun become 101 seconds .

(in defensive role)
+1 magic armor/7 INT (like Armor formula)
1% reduce effect duration of all effect spell <-------------Update, Fix to 0.5% due to OP

Q: Is this change will make INT based heroes OP?
NO, because…
INT stat nor increase hero’s health(which make STR based heroes are very hard to kill) and attack speed(which make AGI based heroes deal a ton of damage at late game) which mean they can’t be super hero.

Q: Is this change will make INT based heroes can stun,hex or ampify damage for a double bonus or duration when their INT reach 100?
Yes, but in practical It’s impossible to have this thing happen, as I already explained above, INT stat in defensive role will help the target(you) reduce effect duration of all effect spell
e.g. if A(have 10 in INT stat) use stun spell(which its based stun duration is 1 second) to B(have 6 in INT stat),with new change of this, the net time that B will be stuned will be calculate by this new formula
Effect duration formula = Base effect duration x ((Enemy’s INT-Target’s INT)/100)
That mean
-If Enemy’s INT>Target’s INT(you) = you suffer effect bonus damage and duration more than normal.
-If Enemy’s INT<Target’s INT(you) = you suffer effect bonus damage and duration less than normal(because you’re smarter than enemy ^^)
so B will be stuned for 1x((10-6)/100) = 1.04 second
Q: So when The Dark Lady reach level 25(67.5 total INT) her Dark blade effect will buff her damage by 80*1.67.5=134% base damage! Thank for your NooB idea.
This problem can be easily fixed by nerf the effect e.g. from 80% base damage to 60% base damage at level 4.
(honestly i want to make INT reduce the cooldown of the spell too but i have no idea to explain bue to i'm very busy right now so i'll skip this idea)
Lastly I hope S2 team try this change and test it via Super Beta Tester(or something, I can’t remember the name :( ) I hope this change will make game more fun, see more INT hero in every game mode and more strategy to play which will make HON jump to new ERA.
PS:I have many things that want to explain about this change but I can’t do that because I speak poor English(can’t explain in English) sorry again but I hope you get my point.
PS2: if someone can edit my thread, please make the poll for this one with 2 choice(thumb up, thumb down) and i will thank you very much.
And thank you all reader for reading,if you have a comment, feel free to post it here.

End of my 1st comment
-----------------------

Thank you for every comments, after i've read a lot of comments in here(some i can't understand due to my poor English, sorry :( ) The most topic you talk about are:
1. This change will make ground breaking due to OP magic damage
This can’t be come true because…
As I already explain at first, INT stat also increase magic armor which mean 100 INT enemy have won’t deal 100% bonus damage to you because your magic armor will help you reduce that.
E.G. Torturer with the following end game items: Tablet, Null, Totem, Treads on INT: 14+15+35+10 = 74 bonus int plus INT from himself at level 25(121 int total) he will have 121 + 74 = 195 total INT = 195% bonus magic damage
(assume his base magic damage spell is 300 dmg, with 195% bonus he gain, he deal 300x1.95= 585 magic damage instead) sound terrible for STR and AGI heroes?
Well if he use that spell to The Dark Lady at level 25(16 + 1.9*25 + 20 = 83.5 total INT = 11.9 magic armor, plus 5 magic armor that every heroes have she will have 16.9 armor in total which = 49% magic damage reduction) so The Dark Lady take = 585 x ((100-49)/100) = 298 damage, which isn’t deal much damage compare with old formula
For old formula, The dark Lady will take 300 x .75(from her base magic armor) = 225 damage
So the damage difference between new and old formula is just = 298 – 225 = 73 damage(approximately ½ - 1 auto attack hit at late game)
Conclustion: this change won’t make magic damage Over Power for INT based heroes in my opinion as I explain above.


2. This change will make ground breaking due to OP Effect duration
Okay, 1% effect duration seem too much after I calculate by compare with Torturer with items at the first question(195 total int) and The Dark lady at level 25(83.5 total int), 195 – 83.5 = 111.5% effect duration seem too effective, 0.5% or 0.3% should be ok
Conclusion: 1% effect duration should be nerfed, and use 0.5 or 0.3 % or fitting number instead (or event nerf its base effect duration).

The reason I want this change is : I want to see HON difference from DOTA , why magic armor must be fix and why INT based heroes must too weak in late game(I’m one who play support quite often due to most people choose carry all the time) They should shinable at late game but not too OP by improve INT stat bonus which make them have more survivability to all effect that done by AGI or STR heroes(because they are fragile and low DPS), improve a bit of effect duration which make them do support role better than now.

And last, everything I suggest is changeable if you think it look bad, thank you for all comments.
End of my 2nd comment

[Gorb]

Although it's a suggestion, approved for curiosity. I want to see where this thread goes.

Let's call this a social experiment with regards to any lurking games designers.

[PzKw]

Any ideas to rework anything fundamental like this will instantly be met with enormous scepticism by me. See, removing opportunity cost from nukers isn't necessarily a bad idea, it's just that there's no way to execute it without remaking literally every single hero who has nukes.

In concept, these ideas aren't necessarily bad (in concept, I happen to think they are, but that's a seperate argument), it's that the concept is very different from the execution of it, and there's 10 years of design that you'd have to throw out the window and start over to achieve this (and the section you'd be remaking happens to be one of the sections that functions the best - excepting the influence of spellshards).

THERE IS NO FONT LARGE ENOUGH FOR MY TDOWN.

[Mummpitz]

...................... this whould completely wipe the game balance... int heroes are balanced and not played the same way it can be done in LoL.. Pls think a little bit forward... i dont want to see HoN turning into what LoL is... Even that you statet good ideas at itself... Carries have a hard time early and if u make the Int-Based Heroes that much harder... its completely a NO GO !

[Malefication]

Nice thread you approved there, Gorb. Can we get it closed now?

[Mummpitz]

i thnk its said enough... clsoe it ;)

[`11411181]

Ok.​.

[SomethingOdd]

Why not, supports are so weak, they aren't tanks or carries, so this will make them much better.

What about heroes like arma, with a lot of int, he'd have a lot of MA, making him much more of a tank.

[zstarkey42]

You realize implementing something like this would complettly offset the game's balance and ask for revamps on every single hero skill and maybe even item in the long run? You are literally throwing years of design of the dota genre out of the window to create something that would not only completly change the way the game is played, how to build heros and teams and would probably take months if not years to perfect while presenting no evidence on how it would be for the better. Also, for a change this huge you provide very little arguments or reasoning other than 'it would be cool because LoL has it as well'. Your post is also full of assertions that lack any objective evidence... a post like this being allowed makes me lose credibility in this forum, no offense.

[Skyve]

See, here we kinda are in the forums for a game called HoN. This game is kinda based around certain things, like having primary attributes, and having each strength point give you +19 hp and some regen, much like int gives you 13 mana and 0.04 regen (or smth like that).

If you were to change/add functionality to intelligence, that alone would be a major intrusion into the existing system. But if you actually started to have an attribute scale with a heroes spells, you break another existing value that is in the game, and in the end we no longer have HoN (because not every hero is ment to scale that way).

[Farosarg]

Although it's a suggestion, approved for curiosity. I want to see where this thread goes.

Let's call this a social experiment with regards to any lurking games designers.

The point of the thread: Gorb having a boring evening, looking for good laughs over a completely dumb thread.

[SomethingOdd]

This is a great idea, we should test it in SBt, balance it, and add it ASAP.

[GregerMoek]

]http://i.imgur.com/dQB0s.jpg

Followed by

]http://i.imgur.com/0i87R.jpg
^wrong location for post

Comfort yourself with this

]http://i.imgur.com/21x2e.jpg[


All in all, if you wanna rework all balance in the game, sure this can be cool. Alternatively if you wanna make your own spin-off game, this might be cool. Otherwise, no. So much work. Soooo much work.

[SomethingOdd]

]http://i.imgur.com/dQB0s.jpg

Followed by

]http://i.imgur.com/0i87R.jpg
^wrong location for post

Comfort yourself with this

]http://i.imgur.com/21x2e.jpg[


All in all, if you wanna rework all balance in the game, sure this can be cool. Alternatively if you wanna make your own spin-off game, this might be cool. Otherwise, no. So much work. Soooo much work.
I lol'd so much

[changlingbob]

Crosspost from balance dump, where gorb is trying to claim he isn't trolling.



BALANCE RULES

1. AVOID SUGGESTIONS
Straight out suggestions, with no support behind them at all, will be moderated out, no questions asked. They bring nothing to the discussion and are simply a waste of effort from your part since they will be removed.
If you, through coherent and solid reasoning, show why a certain suggestion is the most favorable way to change something, I will not remove the post, but I would still ask you to try to leave the suggestion out if possible.

2. THREADS ARE APPROVED BY MODERATORS
The current version number must preface the topic of your post, eg. [1.3.3.7] Blacksmith.

Whether or not a certain topic is worthy of discussion is not decided by popularity, but by the quality of the opening post and the relevance of the topic. Before starting new threads you should try to make sure (by using the SEARCH (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/search.php) function) that the specific topic has not recently been an item of discussion. If it was and a Moderator closed it there is probably a reason for that, which might make the topic unfit for discussion at the moment.
There can be a thread on anything regarding balance, as long as the foundation for argumentation is strong, or the issue is thoroughly explained. Remember though, just because a thread open post is long, doesn’t mean it is good.


Shame that the approved thread was:


a suggestion
has no analysis of what the suggestion would do, and that which did exist was shallow and poorly-conceived (wouldn't make int heroes OP is pretty obviously false, for example pyro would become god-tier overnight)
of poor quality, as noted
not regarding balance, except in that it would completely redefine how and where the game is balanced, being more of a design issue
the foundational argument is not strong ('supports tail off, and this would stop that', entirely missing that that is exactly as intended)
the issue is not thoroughly explained, in that there is no analysis of other stats, of opportunity costs, of other options
is wildly inappropriate: the numbers listed actually do the exact opposite of the intent to make supports more relevant. 1% additional spell damage per int would around double magic damage on someone stacking int, while 1 MA per 7 int would give 14 MA on someone with 100 int, giving about 19.5 MA, which reduces damage taken by 54% (from 24% without); adding the +10 from shaman's gives 63% reduction
I've now spent more time thinking about the suggestion than the OP did



And yet, the moderator who accepted this thread is telling us he did it to promote discussion on a topic is telling us that we have to follow his opinion of what a good discussion is, as noted per the forum rules, without actually having even considered the forum rules himself.

Also:

So what if you've had it before?
There's specifically a rule against that as well, that I neglected to mention above. Also also, if you want to have a discussion about ability scaling, perhaps you should submit a thread that follows the above rules, and wait for a moderator to approve it, assuming it meets the minimum standards outlined above.

[SomethingOdd]

Legitimate question: wouldn't this make harkon's extremely unbalanced?

[GregerMoek]

Among an assload of other things.

[Gorb]

We have established that the suggestion itself is flawed, along with the conceptual argument it is based on.

Are we going to leave it at that?

[MushidoZ]

100 points of int gives 1 magic damage ignore maybe? (like spellshard) Other than that, anything too big like proposed by the original post would mean lots of rework on all heroes, and lots of balancing to be done. I also agree the int stat should be buffed up some (and why is strength so much better than intel never actually got through my head, numbers and effects all-together)

[_hidanboss]

1 more int point will deal 1% more magic dmg, if the player have 100 of int (kinesis and vind and pr get 100 easy) will have 100% more magic dmg! imagine pr uti with 100% more dmg! to me it's umbalanced.

[Connect]

While this suggestion is terrible, I do understand the frustration. INT is seriously underpowered in this game. Especially after the S2 era with stuns and slows on every hero. INT heroes used to have an advantage but that's gone.

What we really need is items which boost your magic damage, so INT heroes can keep up with the other, better stats. Let's face it, AGI will always be the best. It's sadly a flaw rooted so deep in the HoN system, so the only way out now is to make items which lets the INT heroes try to keep up with AGI and STR.

[`11411181]

Harkon's Blade?

EDIT: that's not really fair, the main drawcard of Harkon's Blade isn't the -ma debuff. We have Spellshards, but they don't add more damage rather than reduce EHP. The main one is essentially Codex - which we want to avoid seeing large numbers of; and to a lesser extent Mock (which doesn't see a place on an INT hero).

[SomethingOdd]

I meant the fact that it does magic damage, but I went back and read that it would only increase 'skill' damage, rendering everything moot. Also: does the bonus only apply to int heroes?

[man_guy]

Different INT scaling is interesting for a new hero, not across the board. FYI Dark Blades is physical damage.

[Antimodus]

Changing the effect of INT is pretty massive.
Instead, you could instead change individual skills to say something like "Does (300 + 0.5 * your INT) damage" rather then "Does 350 damage"?

It would be much easier to evaluate such changes on a per-hero or per-ability basis.

With that said, I remember having a discussion a long time ago in a thread where I proposed calculating base magic armor, where instead of being a constant 5.5, it would use the INT difference between the caster and the victim. There are two different ways this can be used to buff heroes with high INT (try not to focus on the exact numbers too much):
1) if you had a 150 INT pyro casting on 50 INT targets with his spells, their base magic armor is reduced to nearly 0 against his spells
2) a 150 INT Vindicator would get like 10 base magic armor against spells cast by some 50 INT hero

Note that even with both buffs, that still leaves INT heroes mostly feeding physical nukers and carries with shrunken late game. People are making too much of a big deal out of it IMO. I don't think the idea of having INT scale is somehow universally wrong design-wise as some posters here are trying to argue.

No doubt it's impractical in this game, simply because of the amount of effort that went into balancing the existing stuff. Such a change would send a lot of balancing effort down the toilet.

[changlingbob]

So the actual reason that it may feel like int is crap compared to the other two raw stats is probably this:


agi increases your attack speed noticeably, and your armour which you probably don't notice but is there
str increases your health pretty substantially
int grants you mana and mana regen, but spell costs are really low and you have a ring of sorcery if you actually need mana, so who cares


The problem doesn't lie with intelligence not being as good, so much as with the way the game has been designed and balanced; low mana cost heroes do not value intelligence as much as heroes with high mana costs, and heroes with low mana pools would rather pick up ring of sorcery than pick up intelligence items as it provides more mana than an acolyte's staff at about half the cost. Plus the other stats. Plus the active.

I've given feedback on this before, but noone at S2 actually seems to want to admit that mana ring is too good (even with the token nerfs its taken, nothing has hit why it is actually good), and we continue to see low mana cost, spam-style heroes rather than heroes who have to make any real investment in their mana pool.

[IsmaelVera]

But not all Int heroes are gankers, and not all int heroes are carrys, and there are more supportish ints imo. Having magic armor penetration would really shine on some rather than all Int heroes.
:balp:

[Reldnahc]

Harkon's Blade?

EDIT: that's not really fair, the main drawcard of Harkon's Blade isn't the -ma debuff. We have Spellshards, but they don't add more damage rather than reduce EHP. The main one is essentially Codex - which we want to avoid seeing large numbers of; and to a lesser extent Mock (which doesn't see a place on an INT hero).

Of course the -ma debuff isn't the main draw of Harkon's, but it is a part of Harkon's. Harkon's is mainly used to counter heavy armor teams by tearing at the armor they can't build in abundance. Yet Harkon's is an effective way to turn the int stat into an effective offensive powerhouse because of the fact that it is the only attack modifier that costs mana to use(for good reason) and functions more similar to an attack skill. The item has another niche of being able to synergize with most INT heroes who can deal with its drawbacks without previous item investment. IIRC Hellbringer/BS utilized Harkon's in -ma stacking teams and Rev/Rhap both can make good use of the item to increase their damage output. While the item is easily viewed as the #1 armor stacking counter, the -ma debuff is still a valuable part of the item and not to be ignored or cheapened.

[SilentSong]

Coming from SC2 and playing SOTIS, the SC2 moba, which, if anyone has ever played it will know it is extremely imbalance and needs much work, I believe one thing that they did which is on the right track is give almost all abilities scaling properties, usually base on the hero's main stat.

Let's take the int hero System Cyprus, for example. He is the game's only true burst dmg hero. His ultimate, fist of gaia, is very similar to Pyro/WS ult. "Level 1: Deals 400 (+125% INT) damage" So his level 1 ultimate with, let's say 50 int, 475 dmg. which is a pretty solid amount early-game burst.

His level 3 ult deals 800(+125% INT) dmg. So at this point, with 100 int, will do 925 dmg, which is right along the line's with a hero like pyromancer. Obviously this is one example, but something I believe could be implemented in the future to give spells some sort of scaling past getting spellshards, an item I, and pretty much every competitive player, almost never pick up anyway.

[Cyber_Kun]

The issue with everyone scaling is that everyone loses the fact that they are designed to work in a certain area. If everyone scales the value of a hard carry drops to nothing. This works out on just about everything scaling wise. Scaling should only exist in rare cases.

[Demonwing]

Int is, without a doubt, the lease desirable stat. It grants nothing but mana which becomes irrelevant for ~95% of the hero pool mid-late game (as base int gain generally more than covers it). It also grants mana regen (and actually grants negative % mana regen per point).

As such, intelligence in "underpowered" compared to agility and strength. Whether this is relevant to general game balance is debatable.

I think adding an additional perk to the stat wouldn't be innapropriate. If it were done, however, it would need to be rather conservative. For example, +.1% magic damage per int point. This would make a 100 int hero deal an additional 10% magic damage. Another thing to consider would be +.04 magic armor per point of int (so +4 at 100 int). Also consider +.05%-.1% cooldown reduction per int.

I think adding any one of these perks to intelligence would definitely be a constructive step to consider. Definitely not on the front of the priority list and I haven't analyzed the effects of intelligence on the game to a comfortable extent, but something to think about.

Perhaps some of you should consider giving odd concepts a chance instead of being such negative Nancys.

[Oeshy]

what would thai players know about int heroes? they never play them.

every game on thai server in garena has a minimum of 8 agility hero.

i am not exaggerating. it is that bad

[Doomhammar]

HoN is not an MMORPG. It does not need this type of scaling unless the concept of hero/item/whatever is designed around it.

[Antimodus]

What is this nonsense. leave MMORPGs out of this discussion. "Designed around"? I can see the case for complaining about balance disruption, but design?
Are you actually saying it's a design-level problem to have your 100-something odd intel give you some kind of benefit that remains useful late game? Can you please explain yourself?

Also, relating to earlier posts: Harkon's blade is indeed a good example of an item that helps you utilize a gigantic mana pool. Too bad it's the only such item, and practical on a very small number of INT heroes and situational.

E: well there's also restoration stone, I suppose it's worth mentioning.



The issue with everyone scaling is that everyone loses the fact that they are designed to work in a certain area. If everyone scales the value of a hard carry drops to nothing. This works out on just about everything scaling wise. Scaling should only exist in rare cases.

clearly false
semi carries scale very well but this doesn't make the value of hard carries drop to nothing. some things scale better than others. As long as that holds a "hard carry" can exist.

[KawaiChan]

1. Thumbs up to OP for his bold/controversial suggestion.
2. It's S2 intention/goal to make HoN Difference from DotA.
3. If I want to play DotA I go for DotA 2 not HoN.
4. This idea is very hard to implement/balance.
5. It will require a major overhaul to the current game mechanic.
6. It's however do-able and will sets HoN apart from old DotA mechanic.
7. Unfortunately, S2 got other priorities right now.
8. So let us discuss the issue/problem if this was implement.
a. Old DotA player attachment to the old mechanic that they love and refuse to change them.
b. Harder for the competitive scene to adopt/adjust to the new mechanic.
c. Adds a new learning curve for the new player.
9. Some positive things for this move is.
a. It will make those INT support/nuker to scale slightly better to be able to compete with other STR/AGI hero in late game.
b. It will change some the way of some INT hero to be played/build (New item build on certain INT hero).
c. Adds new roles to some of the INT hero (Scaling super disabler/nuke/spammer).Thats all of what I can think right now.

edit: paragraphing.

[Tirrinar]

I'd love to see INT well...not suck as a stat. However too big of a change is bad, don't get me wrong I'd love to see just across the board buffs to late game viability to casters in general, DS's healbomb and cape are almost ignorable benefits and heroes like Pyro and Tb, and other Straight damage nukers loose power at a ridiculous drop off rate around the teams approach the lv 14+mark and their burst is nearly neglegeable at the lv 25 1hr farmfests.

I would love to see some item or better, a stat revamp that allowed some scaling to intels, STR heroes get more durable and Agi heroes deal more and more AA damage as time goes on (barring exceptions like engineer and fayde who act similar to a INT rather than your prototypical AGI hero) meanwhile INT heroes who specialize in dealing damage as their primary benefit to their team are regulated to buy CC items which is NOT what their skillset is designed for them to do. As far as I can tell that is just poor design.

The problem is society is resistant to change and the HoN community is even moreso given its fanboyism and near fanatical "patriotism" towards what they believe is the superior MOBA LoL HoN RoI etc. And anything that they see as a stray towards whatever "rival" game they perceive is tantamount to a sin.

I see that the carrying of attributes from a dated system that was an enforced mechanic required by the modders involved to use in the WC3 map dota was to ease the transition from dota to HoN but considering that dota2 is coming HoN needs a new selling point other than...we have different heroes, HoN has A TON more skillshot heroes than DotA does but that isn't anything that you can brag about, because 90% of the games played are played with the knowledge that their team needs at least 1 semi/hard carry since if they go for the more entertaining(subjective I know but I'm sharing my opinion here) heroes who actively use their skills instead of heroes whose biggest role is to keeps a steady income so their right mouse button wins the game for their team by doing 90% of their teams lategame damage. That said I don't mid the concept of a carry however i heavily dislike the concept that a heroes primary role becomes ignored when the game takes longer than 30 minutes and instead needs to invest in instead of ways to increase their damage output like the physical dps heroes, but instead wards and heaing/save your ass items or offensive crowd control mechanics that don't necessarily coincide with the original concept of the skills a hero has.

Another problem INT characters face in regards to not sucking in the long run is magic immunity, Shrunken head and other spells like it basically tell any magic damage dealer to go screw themselves. So even if INT gains the +magic damage to skills they will still have problems in the late game and severe drawbacks when it comes to carries with shrunken/ a team with jere, pred, etc. Not to mention the vast superiority of SH compared to Void and the tremendous prevalence of silence spells/items and almost nonexistent status of disarms.

To the "heroes are designed for stages of a game" I could start up an example, play as pyromancer, and after the 30 minute mark I can sell my non-scaling items and leave. That way I don't hinder my team by providing kills to the opposing side and allow my team free items and extra gold. Seems to me that when my damage dealing capability reaches the point where my spells don't have an impact I shouldn't burden my team with my non-scaling presance, this way they can gain the benefits of having a strong midgame presence as well as having plety of gold for their lategame damage dealers.

In short, making INT not suck would be nice, giving INT char's scaling would be better, but unlikely to happen considering xenophobia and simple resistance to change (and growth). Love to see changes(and make the game less DotA clone and more of it's own game) giving caster some degree of footing when it comes to the other stats.

[Hsssh]

I think adding an additional perk to the stat wouldn't be innapropriate. If it were done, however, it would need to be rather conservative. For example, +.1% magic damage per int point. This would make a 100 int hero deal an additional 10% magic damage. Another thing to consider would be +.04 magic armor per point of int (so +4 at 100 int). Also consider +.05%-.1% cooldown reduction per int.

I think adding any one of these perks to intelligence would definitely be a constructive step to consider. Definitely not on the front of the priority list and I haven't analyzed the effects of intelligence on the game to a comfortable extent, but something to think about.

Perhaps some of you should consider giving odd concepts a chance instead of being such negative Nancys.

It doesn't take much brains or "analysis" to realize that such change would:

a) change balance of every single hero in the game.
b) change balance of majority of items in the game.

Furthermore its hard to get behind a concept when there are zero solid arguments made why it is exactly a bad thing that int has a cap on usefulness and str/agi are more desirable for most heroes.

[pewpewstar]

Way too many crappy suggestions flying around because they 'could be interesting'. Have you guys really thought this through? I'll just leave this here:

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) BUT AT WHAT COST?

[PzKw]

No. No, no, no, no, no.

No.

This thread is going to produce something worthwhile, because it’s raising tonnes of misnomers that always come up in these threads, and which permeate peoples’ understand of the game from high level competitive insight like Maelk on Joindota casts right down to scrubs who inhabit (or inhibit, depending on your perspective) 1400 games.

Here’s the first thing. There is a soft agility cap in the game. Agility is also the most restricted stat in the game, with the fewest endgame items with lots of it. Secondly, most of the high end damage items don’t have agility on them. Thirdly, as a function of both of these things, most carries don’t end up with a whole lot more agility than other carries. Fourthly, +IAS as conferred by agility suffers significant diminishing returns lategame due to server frame capping in HoN.

Let’s discuss this critically for a moment, because there’s this enormous perception that agility heroes scale better into the lategame. Which they don’t. Technically, they don’t even do more damage lategame than any other stat, because primary stat has almost no influence on what your damage output looks like lategame.

Let’s look at several case studies to illustrate this. So here’s the most common agi carry item:

Geometer’s Bane grants:

26 AGI
10 STR
10 INT
10% MS
15 IAS

So here’s the first one. You only get an extra 16 damage off it as an Agi.

Now let’s compare it to the most common Int Carry item:

Hellflower grants:

20 INT
51 DMG
30 IAS
+225% mana regen

So here’s the second one, this item gives an extra 20 damage for int, about 15 less IAS than geobane, and about twice the damage all up even if you're agi. Geobane gives a more HP, and obviously the MS, but I thought we were talking about AGI being THE stat for scaling damage. Weren't we?

Let’s take a step back for a moment. Which item is scaling damage better here. I’m ignoring active effects, because it’s quite time consuming to compare them, though they’re certainly not overly difficult to compare, but let’s just look at which stat is apparently being favoured, because from every appearance it looks like the Int item is giving more damage. If you want to get anal about it, we can easily pull in Savage Mace or Riftshards which are stat neutral and compare them. Early game we can haul in Shieldbreaker. If we want to get nasty about it, we can do a damage comparison between Harkons and Wingbow.

The point is: where is this mythical Agi coming from that these heroes are apparently scaling so well with. It’s not in their base stats or growth (we’ll discuss this in a minute), and it’s certainly not coming from items, because no one ever buys the other two lategame big Agi items in high tier games (Genjuro and Wingbow), so effectively, we’re looking at a stat that no one ever invests into because all the items that actually give a lot of it, are bad at what they do. We’re really not looking at cataclysmic agi differences between Agi (16 agi more than anything else on Geobane LEWL) and non-agi carries lategame. I mean, the most dominant agi carry item for about a year was FWS, which is a str primary item. Since we’re talking about attack speed, the highest attack speed item in the game is a stat neutral item (CH), and one of the heroes with the tied highest possible attack speed in game is an Int hero (Aluna).

Let’s take a step back and actually look at what this “extra attack speed from agi” really means for you lategame. Because mechanically, this entire argument is actually wrong. For example, in the middle and low tiers of attack speed, to break frames up to the next incremental attack speed, you need a difference of about 20 IAS (15 frames per attack is 16 IAS to go to 14 frames, 12 to 11 frames is 26 IAS), when you go up to the high end, where we’re looking at carries who are well itemed, you’re looking at much higher amounts (10 frames per attack to 9 frames per attack is an IAS of 38 for example). This means that on a hypothetical hero with 240 total IAS sitting at 2 attacks per second needs another 38 agility to get even a single bit of attack speed out of a new item. What this means is that, say, an agility hero like TDL with an Agi of 23 + (3.1) compared to a “caster” like Hag with 18 (+2) effectively gains an extra 1.1 IAS, or, moves up 1 middle tier increment of IAS every 10 levels unless she invests in hueg lategame agi items, that we already discussed that no one really does. In other words, a low agi gain hero like Hag is only suffers an actual attack speed disadvantage once every 10 levels compared to a TDL.

BUT WAIT TDL ATTACKS FASTER THAN HAG. The forumers are all screaming breathlessly, dislodging a fine rain of cheetoh dust from their grimy keyboards.

Yes. That’s because she has an ability that grants her +75 IAS. Which is sort of the same as the difference her primary stat base and growth would give her if she found some way to level up to level 60something, or if she purchased Genjuro and Wingbow, and got instantly obliterated after being hexed, silenced and nuked into oblivion by a kiting Hag, or if she was at level 25 and had an agi growth of like, 8... These heroes that you see that scale absurdly well aren’t scaling because of their primary attribute, they’re scaling because their designs are made to scale with things like the Zeal bonus on Charging Strikes. The stats have a nominal effect at best. Which is also the main reason why you don't see these heroes picking up BIG AGI ITEMS and instead always go for BIG GOLD EFFICIENT ITEMS.


Swap to STR, and I could give examples of the same thing. Are str heroes really carrying with Heart because it gives them 35 damage more than it would if an int hero picked it up, or is it actually because their abilities are designed to do absurd damage.

And even if all of this were the case, why is it that Ints are still the most common pickups in The Scene. Why have Int heroes with non-scalar nukes been a staple for all levels of non-trash HoN and DotA forever? Why did Icefrog ignore these same threads 5 years ago on the DA forums?

Because the game is designed around these facts from the most fundamental levels. That’s why there’s no enormous lategame Agi items that are super viable. That’s why there isn’t an agi equivalent of Stormspirit, Tablet, Astrolabe etc. The fact that Int offers less scaling effects than agi and str has been a consideration that went into designing every facet of the game, the same way that Riot took scaling int equivalents into their game from day 1. That’s why all of the “best” lategame items are either stat neutral (Rifts, SMace, DR) or offer all of the benefits that people actually buy them for to everyone (BKB gives magic immunity whether you get the tiny extra damage out of it by being strength, heart gives you 1k hp and 1hp/s whether you get the extra 35 strength or not, genjuro gives invis, burst and slow whether you’re agi or not, harkons converts your damage to magic no matter whether you get the extra damage, geobane offers… Hex offers… Orchid offers… Nullstone offers… FWS offers…)

So here’s the thing. What are you talking about? Where is all this agi coming from, and if this scaling agi is so amazing, why do all carries pretty much build a variation of Nullstone or BKB + 1 utility or damage item OR 1 stat neutral orb before completing the one they didn’t complete? Why is there any incentive to fix a system, that while archaic, is not actually broken, and has already been almost completely mitigated with design in game. The biggest design goal of the past 3 – 4 years in HoN, from what I’ve seen, was getting STR and melee heroes into the game AT ALL at a competitive level. There’s been a concerted effort to get AGI heroes into a sustainable place as well. Int heroes have always been marginalised in low tier games, because no one has any idea how the game actually works, and (back in the days of well defined roles based on stats) no one knew how to exploit their early game advantages to shape what sort of lategame ended up happening. That’s never been a valid case for a rework of the int stat, and it never will be in a game that takes itself seriously for high level players. LoL doesn’t, that’s why LoL has every stat scaling, and that’s also one of the reasons why you can comfortably cook a stew during a LoL game, and come back to find everyone still farming – because if everyone has an incentive to farm, you’ve just removed the incentive that existed in heroes who didn’t have an incentive to farm before from ganking/pushing/not farming.

Sure you could make it so that some heroes scaled worse etc, but if you were going to do it in a meaningfully large way, what would you be achieving from an overall design perspective? The same game, with a slightly more complicated mechanic? Cool story bro.jpg

[LordAnxiety]

This Idea sounds for me very like League of Legends Gameplay, cause there you ve a magic damage multiplier called AP (Abillity Power).
Well I personally play LoL a little bit and I like that system.

But all in all I find HoN shouldn't go that way.
There r so much ways to play a Int Hero, only think of Witch Slayer. Supposed to be an Item independent Support who buys wards, but is also a great ganker and therefore a great sololane Hero, can be built to carry a game late.

Are are also Items to push magic damage like :spellshards: :harkonsblade: (I know there r discussion about them)

So my conclusion is that I dont like this Idea cause HoN is HoN and should be stay HoN.

[PzKw]

I'll just throw out one more thing, since armour will probably come up. Armour is the cheapest stat in the game. Go back to Hag vs TDL for a minute. Their armour based on agi differs by about 0.7 at level 1 and the gap increases by 0.14 every level (for simplicity, another 0.07 every 5 levels). That means that by level 25, their armour differs by 4.55 based on stats. Earth shattering, right? In return for being near 522 dying melee creeps, you get less armour than you could have bought for killing 14 of those same creeps.Earth shattering. Agi conversion to armour is mind blowingly small. 0.14 per point.

[zstarkey42]

No. No, no, no, no, no.

No.

This thread is going to produce something worthwhile, because it’s raising tonnes of misnomers that always come up in these threads, and which permeate peoples’ understand of the game from high level competitive insight like Maelk on Joindota casts right down to scrubs who inhabit (or inhibit, depending on your perspective) 1400 games.

Here’s the first thing. There is a soft agility cap in the game. Agility is also the most restricted stat in the game, with the fewest endgame items with lots of it. Secondly, most of the high end damage items don’t have agility on them. Thirdly, as a function of both of these things, most carries don’t end up with a whole lot more agility than other carries. Fourthly, +IAS as conferred by agility suffers significant diminishing returns lategame due to server frame capping in HoN.

Let’s discuss this critically for a moment, because there’s this enormous perception that agility heroes scale better into the lategame. Which they don’t. Technically, they don’t even do more damage lategame than any other stat, because primary stat has almost no influence on what your damage output looks like lategame.

Let’s look at several case studies to illustrate this. So here’s the most common agi carry item:

Geometer’s Bane grants:

26 AGI
10 STR
10 INT
10% MS
15 IAS

So here’s the first one. You only get an extra 16 damage off it as an Agi.

Now let’s compare it to the most common Int Carry item:

Hellflower grants:

20 INT
51 DMG
30 IAS
+225% mana regen

So here’s the second one, this item gives an extra 20 damage for int, about 15 less IAS than geobane, and about twice the damage all up even if you're agi. Geobane gives a more HP, and obviously the MS, but I thought we were talking about AGI being THE stat for scaling damage. Weren't we?

Let’s take a step back for a moment. Which item is scaling damage better here. I’m ignoring active effects, because it’s quite time consuming to compare them, though they’re certainly not overly difficult to compare, but let’s just look at which stat is apparently being favoured, because from every appearance it looks like the Int item is giving more damage. If you want to get anal about it, we can easily pull in Savage Mace or Riftshards which are stat neutral and compare them. Early game we can haul in Shieldbreaker. If we want to get nasty about it, we can do a damage comparison between Harkons and Wingbow.

The point is: where is this mythical Agi coming from that these heroes are apparently scaling so well with. It’s not in their base stats or growth (we’ll discuss this in a minute), and it’s certainly not coming from items, because no one ever buys the other two lategame big Agi items in high tier games (Genjuro and Wingbow), so effectively, we’re looking at a stat that no one ever invests into because all the items that actually give a lot of it, are bad at what they do. We’re really not looking at cataclysmic agi differences between Agi (16 agi more than anything else on Geobane LEWL) and non-agi carries lategame. I mean, the most dominant agi carry item for about a year was FWS, which is a str primary item. Since we’re talking about attack speed, the highest attack speed item in the game is a stat neutral item (CH), and one of the heroes with the tied highest possible attack speed in game is an Int hero (Aluna).

Let’s take a step back and actually look at what this “extra attack speed from agi” really means for you lategame. Because mechanically, this entire argument is actually wrong. For example, in the middle and low tiers of attack speed, to break frames up to the next incremental attack speed, you need a difference of about 20 IAS (15 frames per attack is 16 IAS to go to 14 frames, 12 to 11 frames is 26 IAS), when you go up to the high end, where we’re looking at carries who are well itemed, you’re looking at much higher amounts (10 frames per attack to 9 frames per attack is an IAS of 38 for example). This means that on a hypothetical hero with 240 total IAS sitting at 2 attacks per second needs another 38 agility to get even a single bit of attack speed out of a new item. What this means is that, say, an agility hero like TDL with an Agi of 23 + (3.1) compared to a “caster” like Hag with 18 (+2) effectively gains an extra 1.1 IAS, or, moves up 1 middle tier increment of IAS every 10 levels unless she invests in hueg lategame agi items, that we already discussed that no one really does. In other words, a low agi gain hero like Hag is only suffers an actual attack speed disadvantage once every 10 levels compared to a TDL.

BUT WAIT TDL ATTACKS FASTER THAN HAG. The forumers are all screaming breathlessly, dislodging a fine rain of cheetoh dust from their grimy keyboards.

Yes. That’s because she has an ability that grants her +75 IAS. Which is sort of the same as the difference her primary stat base and growth would give her if she found some way to level up to level 60something, or if she purchased Genjuro and Wingbow, and got instantly obliterated after being hexed, silenced and nuked into oblivion by a kiting Hag, or if she was at level 25 and had an agi growth of like, 8... These heroes that you see that scale absurdly well aren’t scaling because of their primary attribute, they’re scaling because their designs are made to scale with things like the Zeal bonus on Charging Strikes. The stats have a nominal effect at best. Which is also the main reason why you don't see these heroes picking up BIG AGI ITEMS and instead always go for BIG GOLD EFFICIENT ITEMS.


Swap to STR, and I could give examples of the same thing. Are str heroes really carrying with Heart because it gives them 35 damage more than it would if an int hero picked it up, or is it actually because their abilities are designed to do absurd damage.

And even if all of this were the case, why is it that Ints are still the most common pickups in The Scene. Why have Int heroes with non-scalar nukes been a staple for all levels of non-trash HoN and DotA forever? Why did Icefrog ignore these same threads 5 years ago on the DA forums?

Because the game is designed around these facts from the most fundamental levels. That’s why there’s no enormous lategame Agi items that are super viable. That’s why there isn’t an agi equivalent of Stormspirit, Tablet, Astrolabe etc. The fact that Int offers less scaling effects than agi and str has been a consideration that went into designing every facet of the game, the same way that Riot took scaling int equivalents into their game from day 1. That’s why all of the “best” lategame items are either stat neutral (Rifts, SMace, DR) or offer all of the benefits that people actually buy them for to everyone (BKB gives magic immunity whether you get the tiny extra damage out of it by being strength, heart gives you 1k hp and 1hp/s whether you get the extra 35 strength or not, genjuro gives invis, burst and slow whether you’re agi or not, harkons converts your damage to magic no matter whether you get the extra damage, geobane offers… Hex offers… Orchid offers… Nullstone offers… FWS offers…)

So here’s the thing. What are you talking about? Where is all this agi coming from, and if this scaling agi is so amazing, why do all carries pretty much build a variation of Nullstone or BKB + 1 utility or damage item OR 1 stat neutral orb before completing the one they didn’t complete? Why is there any incentive to fix a system, that while archaic, is not actually broken, and has already been almost completely mitigated with design in game. The biggest design goal of the past 3 – 4 years in HoN, from what I’ve seen, was getting STR and melee heroes into the game AT ALL at a competitive level. There’s been a concerted effort to get AGI heroes into a sustainable place as well. Int heroes have always been marginalised in low tier games, because no one has any idea how the game actually works, and (back in the days of well defined roles based on stats) no one knew how to exploit their early game advantages to shape what sort of lategame ended up happening. That’s never been a valid case for a rework of the int stat, and it never will be in a game that takes itself seriously for high level players. LoL doesn’t, that’s why LoL has every stat scaling, and that’s also one of the reasons why you can comfortably cook a stew during a LoL game, and come back to find everyone still farming – because if everyone has an incentive to farm, you’ve just removed the incentive that existed in heroes who didn’t have an incentive to farm before from ganking/pushing/not farming.

Sure you could make it so that some heroes scaled worse etc, but if you were going to do it in a meaningfully large way, what would you be achieving from an overall design perspective? The same game, with a slightly more complicated mechanic? Cool story bro.jpg

I'm not sure why you bothered writing that up on a troll thread, nontheless that is what me and others have tried to explain so far with well-presented facts.

This game was never meant to give INTs spell scaling because they're not supposed to be farming for most of the game like AGI carries. Having stronger early/mid game spells is their tradeoff for lacking scaling later (and even then many INTs can rival other pure agility carries lategame due to the reasons you mentioned). Stat-per-level gain is not nearly as important as most people seem to make it anyway. It all comes down to your items and abilities/passives. There is no need to give every INT any sort of scaling because they compensate this for something called UTILITY, which is usually presented in their skills as well as in their items (Sheepstick, hellflower, tablet, etc are stille extremly strong despite latest nerfs). Then you're also forgetting the item with the HIGHEST lategame DPS by far in 90% of cases (Harkons Blade) that mostly benefits INT heros as well.

Int heros have more than enough perks already: they can solely determine early/mid game by themselves, some can nuke people down reliably, most of them pack more CC than str/agi heros and they also synergize the best with the most overpowered items in the game, and many of them are still quite capable of giving other agi carries a run for their money in lategame damage with the right items. Messing with one of the game's CORE mechanics and design basics is a BAD idea. Intelligence heros are fine for the most part and if you want to buff them, switching their focus into farming like agi carries is the wrong way to go because the game was never designed to be that way, and will probably result in heavy imbalance if you mess with it.

[MushidoZ]

I would be really interested to see how many of the "don't buff int" defenders actually play int heroes as their main, and if so, which ones. I somehow have the feeling they main agi and str and have little to no gameplay with the heroes that aren't overpowered or easy-farm / easy-burst heroes (like say pyro)

All that talk about int heroes having the best lategame items is completely irrelevant, as those items cost so much you usually get passed the "I am a level 11 overpowered agi/str hero and I can rape your ass with my right click" and end up sucking with a good majority of the heroes, as you lack the str to have the right hp to survive attacks from the noob heroes that require no playing skill to own with.

I believe the original poster is completely on crack with his suggestions (way too big), but I also KNOW that int needs another added benefit to their base stat (a MINOR one that requires LOTS of int so that the noob heroes don't benefit from it)

[Lethe]

I've seen a lot of retarded threads. This has to be one of the worst.

Plz let it die.

[PzKw]

I would be really interested to see how many of the "don't buff int" defenders actually play int heroes as their main, and if so, which ones. I somehow have the feeling they main agi and str and have little to no gameplay with the heroes that aren't overpowered or easy-farm / easy-burst heroes (like say pyro)

All that talk about int heroes having the best lategame items is completely irrelevant, as those items cost so much you usually get passed the "I am a level 11 overpowered agi/str hero and I can rape your ass with my right click" and end up sucking with a good majority of the heroes, as you lack the str to have the right hp to survive attacks from the noob heroes that require no playing skill to own with.

I believe the original poster is completely on crack with his suggestions (way too big), but I also KNOW that int needs another added benefit to their base stat (a MINOR one that requires LOTS of int so that the noob heroes don't benefit from it)
Since this thread has completely degenerated into pure trash, I'm going to call you out for a 1v1 solo mid where you get to pick the hero I play, as well as the hero you play. Since you've accused me of being bad, and this entire thread was created for the purpose of promoting bad behaviour on this forum, I am going to revert to the trash behaviour this thread is designed to encourage, and call a 1v1 to address your claim that anyone who disagrees with you must be exploiting a game imbalance.

Or are you chicken?

Edit: Your 5 most played heroes seem to account for over 60% of your total picks. Maybe if you played more than 10 heroes total, you might have a broader perspective on this issue.

[Brannock]

I would be really interested to see how many of the "don't buff int" defenders actually play int heroes as their main, and if so, which ones. I somehow have the feeling they main agi and str and have little to no gameplay with the heroes that aren't overpowered or easy-farm / easy-burst heroes (like say pyro)


Okay, let's examine this from a competitive scene perspective. You've already discounted the INT heroes that aren't overpowered (I will take the liberty of interpreting this to be "overused") and the INT heroes that don't have easy farm/burst. There are 38 INT heroes total.

First, let's remove the heroes who have either a method of easily farming or more than a single spell capable of being described as "powerful burst": :bomb: :bubb: :chip: :ello: :kine: :thun: :poll: :pyro: :temp: :witc: :arte: :wret: :defi: :plag: :doct: :geom: :soulr: :myrm: :para: :pupp: :reve: :tort: - That's 22 heroes out of the pool already.

Then let's remove the heroes who are popular picks in the competitive scene, but didn't quite qualify for the last category: :alun: :nymp: :mona: :ophe: :glac: :deme: - That's another six out of the pool, leaving us with ten remaining heroes.

This leaves: :blac: :empa: :mart: :rhap: :vind: :hell: :rift: :succ: :grav: :vood:

And of those I would argue that a healthy chunk of that last group are severely underappreciated and don't need a buff at all. On top of that, Riftwalker can't even be used in tournament rules yet due to being a recently-released hero so we don't even know if she would be popular with the competitive scene.

And you want to buff an entire class of heroes based on a few outliers? You want to also buff it in such a way that it requires a tremendous amount of Intelligence so that the "noob" heroes don't benefit from it - and you've defined "noob hero" as a hero who has "easy farm/easy burst", apparently completely neglecting that those heroes tend to also have the best Int growth in the game and the best chance of getting to the high levels of Int required for your suggestion.

I don't think you've fully thought this through.

[OJPhoenix]

There is another way for "Intelligence" to scale, it just isn't used much.

:doct:
Doctor Repulsor.
Intelligence increases a Hero's mana pool (and mana regeneration ever so slightly I believe) but only this hero is truly capable of using an extended mana pool to great benefit, one that he can continue to benefit from no matter how much mana he accumulates.

The fact that Intelligence provides mana pool, is something that should be used to a greater degree, like Doc. While obviously, we shouldn't have every hero running around with the capacity to make use of endless mana like Doc theoretically could, this is an example of good use of Intelligence. Heroes should want Intelligence so that their mana becomes more reliable, they don't need it replenished as much, and this is the case. Int Heroes tend to make good use of more Intelligence, it allows them to more sustainably use their abilities.

Yet its the only stat that you don't want more of after a certain point.
Harkon's could argue otherwise, but its primary selling point is the versatility it provides by changing how things work
There gets a point where Intelligence is no longer useful, once you're mana pool is sufficient, there are better things to be getting.
However, some few heroes, like doc, can always use more mana, something I think should be expanded on.

I'm not sure that OPs suggestion would be a good idea, because yes, it would require a massive change. He does however make a good point about Intelligence not being as useful as it should be to those who ought to want it. It would be good if something were to be done about that

Even if that required something like what OP suggested to be purchasable.
An item that gives the user something for each point of intelligence, such as lowered cooldown, extended durations and or increased spell damage. THAT could be something.

[VahnCrazy]

Dont count the %. Only the idea!

Other example is: Level instead int points... Witch Slayer on lvl 6 do 500 magic damage with ult. So in lvl 10, for example, he will do 600... 25 magic damage per level!

I think level is better, this will make more balanced, because some heroes can get a lot of int points than others...

[zstarkey42]

I do use INT heros a lot actually and I see little need of changing the game to this. While small adjustments may seem harmless on a first look, you have to understand that the game itself was never balanced with this particular thing in mind, and as a result many heros or items could go wrong easily. I don't agree with INT being such an underpowered stat at all, in lategame it actually brings almost the same benefits as other stats: damage, because as already pointed out, the extra attack speed and armor gained by AGI is rather small anyway. You also forget INT benefits some heros more than others and has indeed its own form of scaling. DR, Artesia, Tort, Ellonia are examples of INT semi carries whose overal damage is completly tied to their mana pool. And you're forgetting that higher int = more mana to effectively use the strongest lategame damage item: Harkons. I also dislike the idea of INT increasing magic armor. That would be more of a nerf to them than anything. Unlike agi/str heroscarries, their greatest strenght does not come from stats alone but rather from utility skills and item pickups, and the game is balanced around this particular idea. I thought that was a known fact already.

If you want to buff INT nuker heros in general, a more realistic change would be a price increase on mystic vestments or a magic pierce buff on spellshards - even though this could indirectly buff other burst-based non int heros as well. Intellligence scaling COULD be an interesting concept for a new hero, however.

[MushidoZ]

To brannock: My bad for not expressing myself clearly enough. I consider noob heroes characters like say, armaddon / pebbles / deadwood / zephyr and a bunch of others I could make a list of (characters and carries that own all game long, characters that nuke better than int nukers while being tanks or huge dmg dealers, etc).

The suggestion I personally made was to have like 100 int for 1 magic damage ignore. No pebbles could benefit from that (example).. a int hero would however, and it would be relatively minor in the end (yet appreciated - free spellshard level 1).

PS: I wouldn't consider revenant as having a nuke for farming/burst damage, as overall he falls way behind characters like pyromancers/pebbles. Nor would I include geomancer / nymphora in that list either. Fact of the matter, it's a case by case look at the heroes, but most of the int heroes I wouldn't consider noob heroes, and the systematic approach with categories is not an approach I would personally adopt. The "only int that people have picked" would be more like the following list:

- Pyromancer (easy character to kill weaker heroes, easy to play, people pick him often even when bad with every other int heroes)
- Witch Slayer (same as pyro, with less farm and more disable)
- Polywog Priest (because his wards are utter op trash)
- Parasite (because he's a "fake" int hero, in the sense that he feels like a melee agi, rather than int)
- Puppetmaster (because of his ridiculous disables, ouch critical hit)
- Doc Repulsor (he's on his own category of hero..)
- Thunderbringer (I don't have a problem with him, but he's very popular and known for his harass --> his popularity will go down when Ellonia becomes more widespread. TB is early access heroes, but how many actually own with him?)
- Tempest (op pushing force, cheap, easy to play hero - not easy to own with though)
- Hag (blink, hunting down the low hp heroes, people pick her often for that reason.. clearly not because she owns more than say magebane or valkyrie)
- Torturer (for no real reason, leshrac attract some people I guess, pretty fine as a hero)

Aside from those int characters, you barely ever see the others on casual / pubs, and from the competitive games I've seen, you don't see the others much either (albeit Glacius - whom could have been replaced by behemoth and the likes anyway). Heck, one game out of two when I pick martyr I have 1 or 2 of my teamates and 1 or 2 of my opponants who have no idea what martyr or revenant does. That says a lot, and I would be really curious to know how many of the competitive "carry players" would actually be worth crap playing characters like rhapsody / empath / martyr.

As to PzKW: It's not about being a chicken that I would refuse a 1 v 1, it's because I know it would be meaningless in the end. If you take offense in that (even though I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone) it means I might actually have had a bullseye. I am pretty certain there are many characters that would be nerfed if it wasn't that the people who play them because they are op actually play for money and have bigger weight towards the balancing team than those who play casual. If supports / int get stronger (I personally suggest minor), it affects their play directly, as it makes their op heroes focusing the weak heroes to farm them to "unstoppable" state harder to achieve, therefore making them weaker as players. Of course they are going to say no to a general "buff" to all those squishier/relatively "defenseless" heroes they feed off of. That is what we call in French "Conflit d'intérêt", bias. I would be curious to know how many competitive players that play carries would actually be able to play and do well with, say, rhapsody?

As to the comment about the heroes I play, notice how the majority of the heroes I play are characters that aren't picked often / are considered weak (the strongest hero I play is devourer.. then bombardier?) I am not narrow minded, nor do I have a lack knowledge of the other heroes, however. I was part of the beta, and played all heroes to find bugs / learn their gameplay. Similarly, I was a dota player before coming to Hon for the beta, and I can easily read and understand a skill without having to play the character. More importantly, I play heroes on the weaker side of the balance pretty much every game, and I am in the position where I am the one being focused on due to most of the time being the squishy "trash hero" that people do not pick every single game. I used to play all-random back in my dota days because I prefered playing with people that could switch from one type of character to another.

I made myself a fan of the "unwanted", characters like dark seer / keeper of the light / goblin techies / leshrac (I hate playing him in Hon though, for unknown reason) / pit lord / etc. When I got to HoN's beta, I was doing pretty well. Then it become pay to play, and I had to stop.. for a looong time. When I came back, not only did I suck due to not having my old characters in the game, but I was way out of practice. I did a lot of games, fell to the 1400 bracket, then fought up to near 1600.. then went back up and down to where I sit now. It's all about luck to leave the 1500 bracket, luck, and picking the noob heroes and own people with (which I don't do) That last bit of paragraph was only to shut the (probable) people that will say crap about me being a noob in the 1500 bracket.


To ZSTarkey: bear in mind a level 7 revenant with harkon's blade has enough mana to sustain a fairly decent use of the item (tested in midwars). So int giving mana is pretty much "meh" passed a certain point..


** I haven't double checked, but if I recall, int gives less mana gain than str gives HP. Hp being more useful than mana (by far), maybe it would be a good start to either reverse the calculation or at least make it so Str gives as much hp as int gives int (I haven't double checked, so don't bash me on that last line!)

[Salac`]

I would be really interested to see how many of the "don't buff int" defenders actually play int heroes as their main, and if so, which ones. I somehow have the feeling they main agi and str and have little to no gameplay with the heroes that aren't overpowered or easy-farm / easy-burst heroes (like say pyro)

All that talk about int heroes having the best lategame items is completely irrelevant, as those items cost so much you usually get passed the "I am a level 11 overpowered agi/str hero and I can rape your ass with my right click" and end up sucking with a good majority of the heroes, as you lack the str to have the right hp to survive attacks from the noob heroes that require no playing skill to own with.

I believe the original poster is completely on crack with his suggestions (way too big), but I also KNOW that int needs another added benefit to their base stat (a MINOR one that requires LOTS of int so that the noob heroes don't benefit from it)

The only thing your thread shows is how new players have no idea how to use int heroes, which is why they pick agi carries so often. Int heroes are the best heroes in this game, main attribute hardly matters that much anyway and to validate my claim (since its all it takes according to your twisted logic) my top 4 played heroes are all int.

[MushidoZ]

Main attribute matters in the sense that they usually have the stat increase that goes with it (here read int). If I can get 40-50 str or agi from just leveling up, over 40-50 int, I would be happy to get it with any hero I play (which, again, are usually weaker than the popular ones)

[Antimodus]

Most of what PzKw wrote on this topic is accurate.

I think the main point where INT sucks as a stat is that it has no survivability value. STR is best at this, obviously - and AGI gives armor. Might not seem that much, but stat gain differences, between a hero like say Arachna or TDL vs one of those INTs with 1.5-1.7 AGI/level, can amount to something like 40 AGI at level 25. That's 6 armor, just from stat gain. Then there's Geometer's, which was already mentioned. We're getting to like 9 armor now. Sure the INT hero could shore up the difference with a Frostfield, but then try to compare the attack speeds. or if he gets DaemonicBP, compare the attack damage.

The INT-favoring carry items (HF, Harkon's) do not give any form of survivability, while both Geometer's and Wingbow do.

INT based carries are leaning very strongly towards "glass cannon" status.

The suggestion I mentioned earlier with INT just giving a small amount of additional base magic armor (like say 1 per 40 INT, or something based on the INT difference between the caster and the victim) was ignored.

The focus was almost entirely on the OP and specifically on buffing INT offensively. Which I tend to agree, is generally a bad idea for several reasons.

Another thing, relating to something PzKw wrote about, and I disagree with: the effect of rounding on +AS due to server frames acts in a neutral manner. What it really does is that instead of +10 IAS giving you the exact dps benefit +10 IAS "should" give you, it gives you something that resembles "25% to get +40 IAS" because of this rounding. The flaw in your analysis is a hidden assumption that everyone's always sitting on just barely the right IAS to get a certain frames-per-attack after rounding, and now you look at how much IAS it takes to get to the next level. This model doesn't fit what actually happens in the game well at all, especially with stat bonuses from levels and/or component items being constantly added.

E: Would like to add that yes, this discussion is mostly about the stats and stat gains themselves and less about which works best as a "primary" stat. You have to admit, that whatever your primary stat and skill set may be, on any hero, you'd almost always want to trade "+0.1 INT/level" for either "+0.1 AGI/level" or "+0.1 STR/level".

P.S. another way to look at it, every time a hero dies with a nonempty mana pool, some of their INT has done no "work", while STR and to a lesser extent AGI were utilized at least to some degree. Very few of the INT heroes (meaning heroes with big INT gains) can actually put ~150 INT to work. Only Dr.Repulsor and Torturer come to mind, SR to a lesser degree, perhaps some potential restoration stone users like Tempest or PWP.

[the_tes]

My LoL player sense is tingling.

That being said (I haven't read all the posts so this point might have been made by somebody else too), most heroes' abilities don't scale with stats/damage because they are intended to be strong early game, and scale off later in the game.

[Tirrinar]

I honestly find it funny how every one is so afraid of the cataclysmic levels of destruction a scaling nuker could deal, currenly a pyro(prototypical nuker) at lv 16 does a solid 1610 damage plus 3 stacks of fervor(48 damage I think) with MR included it's only 1194 damage with vestments it's a mere 1062 and with headdress/barrier idol it does 821 damage to his target. 821 damage on a moderate cooldown to 1 target isn't that much and the only real impact he has lategame is his stun, which is fairly short duration. give him .5% dmg per int and with 100 intel he still doesn't do THAT much damage to a single target when everyone's lv 25 with a hp of 2.5k or more(1791, 1593, and 1231dmg respectively). Not to mention the prevalance of (IMHO) the gamebreaking item called Shrunken Head(basically it allows you to ignore over half the damage for a LONG time+ it allows you to go wherever you want to with relative impunity, and gives a decent amount of stats.

Here's a thought to throw this thread into chaos, instead of more damage have int make your damage act superior magic damage at a 1int to 1% ratio and at 100(or maybe 125 im just pulling numbers out of my ass here) int it allows your spells to consider their CC effects as superior as well.

[Antimodus]

Here's a thought to throw this thread into chaos, instead of more damage have int make your damage act superior magic damage at a 1int to 1% ratio and at 100(or maybe 125 im just pulling numbers out of my ass here) int it allows your spells to consider their CC effects as superior as well.

That would be insanely broken

[Skyve]

Here's a thought to throw this thread into chaos, instead of more damage have int make your damage act superior magic damage at a 1int to 1% ratio and at 100(or maybe 125 im just pulling numbers out of my ass here) int it allows your spells to consider their CC effects as superior as well.

There is no imperative to implement such a thing. Magic Immunity isn't prevalent enough to need such an easy counter, and INT heroes are, and have always been among the dominant picks in any metagame, which would suggest they do not need any buff as wholesome as this.

[Demonwing]

No. No, no, no, no, no.

No.

etcetcetcThis thread is going to produce something worthwhile, because it’s raising tonnes of misnomers that always come up in these threads, and which permeate peoples’ understand of the game from high level competitive insight like Maelk on Joindota casts right down to scrubs who inhabit (or inhibit, depending on your perspective) 1400 games.

Here’s the first thing. There is a soft agility cap in the game. Agility is also the most restricted stat in the game, with the fewest endgame items with lots of it. Secondly, most of the high end damage items don’t have agility on them. Thirdly, as a function of both of these things, most carries don’t end up with a whole lot more agility than other carries. Fourthly, +IAS as conferred by agility suffers significant diminishing returns lategame due to server frame capping in HoN.

Let’s discuss this critically for a moment, because there’s this enormous perception that agility heroes scale better into the lategame. Which they don’t. Technically, they don’t even do more damage lategame than any other stat, because primary stat has almost no influence on what your damage output looks like lategame.

Let’s look at several case studies to illustrate this. So here’s the most common agi carry item:

Geometer’s Bane grants:

26 AGI
10 STR
10 INT
10% MS
15 IAS

So here’s the first one. You only get an extra 16 damage off it as an Agi.

Now let’s compare it to the most common Int Carry item:

Hellflower grants:

20 INT
51 DMG
30 IAS
+225% mana regen

So here’s the second one, this item gives an extra 20 damage for int, about 15 less IAS than geobane, and about twice the damage all up even if you're agi. Geobane gives a more HP, and obviously the MS, but I thought we were talking about AGI being THE stat for scaling damage. Weren't we?

Let’s take a step back for a moment. Which item is scaling damage better here. I’m ignoring active effects, because it’s quite time consuming to compare them, though they’re certainly not overly difficult to compare, but let’s just look at which stat is apparently being favoured, because from every appearance it looks like the Int item is giving more damage. If you want to get anal about it, we can easily pull in Savage Mace or Riftshards which are stat neutral and compare them. Early game we can haul in Shieldbreaker. If we want to get nasty about it, we can do a damage comparison between Harkons and Wingbow.

The point is: where is this mythical Agi coming from that these heroes are apparently scaling so well with. It’s not in their base stats or growth (we’ll discuss this in a minute), and it’s certainly not coming from items, because no one ever buys the other two lategame big Agi items in high tier games (Genjuro and Wingbow), so effectively, we’re looking at a stat that no one ever invests into because all the items that actually give a lot of it, are bad at what they do. We’re really not looking at cataclysmic agi differences between Agi (16 agi more than anything else on Geobane LEWL) and non-agi carries lategame. I mean, the most dominant agi carry item for about a year was FWS, which is a str primary item. Since we’re talking about attack speed, the highest attack speed item in the game is a stat neutral item (CH), and one of the heroes with the tied highest possible attack speed in game is an Int hero (Aluna).

Let’s take a step back and actually look at what this “extra attack speed from agi” really means for you lategame. Because mechanically, this entire argument is actually wrong. For example, in the middle and low tiers of attack speed, to break frames up to the next incremental attack speed, you need a difference of about 20 IAS (15 frames per attack is 16 IAS to go to 14 frames, 12 to 11 frames is 26 IAS), when you go up to the high end, where we’re looking at carries who are well itemed, you’re looking at much higher amounts (10 frames per attack to 9 frames per attack is an IAS of 38 for example). This means that on a hypothetical hero with 240 total IAS sitting at 2 attacks per second needs another 38 agility to get even a single bit of attack speed out of a new item. What this means is that, say, an agility hero like TDL with an Agi of 23 + (3.1) compared to a “caster” like Hag with 18 (+2) effectively gains an extra 1.1 IAS, or, moves up 1 middle tier increment of IAS every 10 levels unless she invests in hueg lategame agi items, that we already discussed that no one really does. In other words, a low agi gain hero like Hag is only suffers an actual attack speed disadvantage once every 10 levels compared to a TDL.

BUT WAIT TDL ATTACKS FASTER THAN HAG. The forumers are all screaming breathlessly, dislodging a fine rain of cheetoh dust from their grimy keyboards.

Yes. That’s because she has an ability that grants her +75 IAS. Which is sort of the same as the difference her primary stat base and growth would give her if she found some way to level up to level 60something, or if she purchased Genjuro and Wingbow, and got instantly obliterated after being hexed, silenced and nuked into oblivion by a kiting Hag, or if she was at level 25 and had an agi growth of like, 8... These heroes that you see that scale absurdly well aren’t scaling because of their primary attribute, they’re scaling because their designs are made to scale with things like the Zeal bonus on Charging Strikes. The stats have a nominal effect at best. Which is also the main reason why you don't see these heroes picking up BIG AGI ITEMS and instead always go for BIG GOLD EFFICIENT ITEMS.


Swap to STR, and I could give examples of the same thing. Are str heroes really carrying with Heart because it gives them 35 damage more than it would if an int hero picked it up, or is it actually because their abilities are designed to do absurd damage.

And even if all of this were the case, why is it that Ints are still the most common pickups in The Scene. Why have Int heroes with non-scalar nukes been a staple for all levels of non-trash HoN and DotA forever? Why did Icefrog ignore these same threads 5 years ago on the DA forums?

Because the game is designed around these facts from the most fundamental levels. That’s why there’s no enormous lategame Agi items that are super viable. That’s why there isn’t an agi equivalent of Stormspirit, Tablet, Astrolabe etc. The fact that Int offers less scaling effects than agi and str has been a consideration that went into designing every facet of the game, the same way that Riot took scaling int equivalents into their game from day 1. That’s why all of the “best” lategame items are either stat neutral (Rifts, SMace, DR) or offer all of the benefits that people actually buy them for to everyone (BKB gives magic immunity whether you get the tiny extra damage out of it by being strength, heart gives you 1k hp and 1hp/s whether you get the extra 35 strength or not, genjuro gives invis, burst and slow whether you’re agi or not, harkons converts your damage to magic no matter whether you get the extra damage, geobane offers… Hex offers… Orchid offers… Nullstone offers… FWS offers…)

So here’s the thing. What are you talking about? Where is all this agi coming from, and if this scaling agi is so amazing, why do all carries pretty much build a variation of Nullstone or BKB + 1 utility or damage item OR 1 stat neutral orb before completing the one they didn’t complete? Why is there any incentive to fix a system, that while archaic, is not actually broken, and has already been almost completely mitigated with design in game. The biggest design goal of the past 3 – 4 years in HoN, from what I’ve seen, was getting STR and melee heroes into the game AT ALL at a competitive level. There’s been a concerted effort to get AGI heroes into a sustainable place as well. Int heroes have always been marginalised in low tier games, because no one has any idea how the game actually works, and (back in the days of well defined roles based on stats) no one knew how to exploit their early game advantages to shape what sort of lategame ended up happening. That’s never been a valid case for a rework of the int stat, and it never will be in a game that takes itself seriously for high level players. LoL doesn’t, that’s why LoL has every stat scaling, and that’s also one of the reasons why you can comfortably cook a stew during a LoL game, and come back to find everyone still farming – because if everyone has an incentive to farm, you’ve just removed the incentive that existed in heroes who didn’t have an incentive to farm before from ganking/pushing/not farming.

Sure you could make it so that some heroes scaled worse etc, but if you were going to do it in a meaningfully large way, what would you be achieving from an overall design perspective? The same game, with a slightly more complicated mechanic? Cool story bro.jpg

First of all, you seem like you were rather upset when you wrote this. Perhaps you should have taken a moment to calm down.

Now I would like to address each of your points, but it is simply impossible for anything to come out of trying to argue such a wild and mostly irrelevant mess. It will just result in an incoherent convolution with a lost purpose. More important than any type of "critical thinking" skill is the skill of simplification: What point is being argued and what basic, concise set of factors are relevant to it at the lowest level? We could go on about agility and intelligence forever. We could analyze its history, analyze average mana costs for different hero types to determine "useful mana breaks", we could come up with all sorts of things to talk about while never solving our problem.

In reality, there are the only two factors in this argument: where are intelligence heroes mid and late game compared to the other two attributes and how
much intelligence do they generally have compared to agillity/strength heroes?

I'll tell you that, on average, a reaonably farmed carry during the midgame with have around 60 int compared to 100-110 on reasonably farmed intelligence heroes. Normal strength heroes will have around 40 int depending on the hero. Of course, oddball int gains are outliers and not factored into that observation.

A good thing to note is the types of int heroes used in DHS. I emphasize the word "note" as it is not truly a key issue. As such, I'm putting it in spoiler tags. The "in" intelligence heroes were Hag, Bubbles, Para, Ophelia, Nymph, Glacius, Polly, Tort, Tempest, and Aluna.
Also note that Tort did not perform very well.

The big similarity between these int heroes (and, interestingly, the disimilarity with tort) is that they are all either have very survivable skillsets (hag, bubs, Para), are very easy to screen (big initiators like Polly and Tempest. Also Aluna with Dejavu), or have ridiculously good skillsets (especially early game) that make it not matter anyway (Nympoh, Glac, Ophe in a general sense).
Tort, on the other, is not a very good initiator, needs to stay alive to be useful, and doesn't have a skillset that helps him stay alive.

Now with the knowledge that int heroes have a little less than double the int of most other heroes and that strength heroes are generally very lacking in intelligence, we can use the intelligence stat as a tool to solve general meta issues. Is there a meta issue right now? One can be argued. That isn't the purpose of this post however. I'm merely simplifying the issue to a managable level and identifying key topics. In addition, I'm demonstrating how manipulating stats can be used to solve these types of balance issues.

For example, say we had a super nuking meta that only allowed heavy nukers to be used. We could add something like .05 magic armor per int to nerf nuking and bring the game more into line while counter-buffing those same nukers who stack int to keep them viable (all in one simple change!).

Manipulating primary stats to fix large game issues is not something to be instantly discarded. It can be a very useful tool for balance and design. Of course, it should be used very sparingly, but don't forget to keep it in the back of your head :)

[`11411181]

cleared up on IRC.

[Tirrinar]

There is no imperative to implement such a thing. Magic Immunity isn't prevalent enough to need such an easy counter, and INT heroes are, and have always been among the dominant picks in any metagame, which would suggest they do not need any buff as wholesome as this.

It is not prevalent enough? The concept is broken, sloppy design, and forgives ignoring bad positioning since they cannot be disabled or damaged by half the opposing team. INT characters are viewed as the "midgame heroes" I see however as the game drags on nukers get worse and worse and are double damned by the availability of an item, and heroes who are built to simply let the opposing team ignore them, plus the lack of ability to compete at all past the 25 minute mark when it comes to damage since most heroes quickly become able to shrug off their burst.

Also the "INT's being dominant" are picks from a VERY small pool that is chosen for ward ***** duties or semi carries such as hag who if they want any degree of relevance they build some survivability or +attack damage items like HF or hark if they want more damage, at which point they become little more than a hero who's damage is predominantly from auto attacks.


Side note on Int being more plentiful as far as items are concerned Int doesn't give attack damage AND speed like agi does, an AGI character gains more from their primary attribute than an INT does, so if INT carries, or even STR to a lesser extent, want to be viable compared to their AGI counterparts for damage their "go to" dps items NEED to have better optimization or else you will see people who when confronted with the question of what carry to pick it'd be AGI or gtfo.

[`11411181]

Hellflower (+71 damage +dmgamp) and Harkon's (best -ehp bar none) are pretty poorly optimized items compared to Wingbow , FWS, Symbol. LAFF

Let's ignore all that Charged Hammer, Riftshards, Shieldbreaker, Savage Mace, Doombringer etc. because you need to build your primary stat!

"plus the lack of ability to compete at all past the 25 minute mark when it comes to damage since most heroes quickly become able to shrug off their burst"
You don't play this game very much at all to say that, no offence.

[foxmindedguy]

I agree with 'tis guy. He very busy person, still come up with great suggestion.

We recently established in the competitive discussion that most balance changes are flavorful and really not many changes change the structure of the actual game. It just forces the "less than DOTA skilled" competitors to forfeit or pick a certain line-up and strat, although in actuality the forgone strat and heroes are still balanced relative to the game.

This suggestion WILL change the structure of the game but if our competitors actually L2P, it will not pwn the game balance. Okies, now as we have established the viability aspect of it, the second (and more important part) is flavor.

Do we want to adapt LOL-type mechanic where casters scale??? Probably not.

So yes, my friend, Gooooood Idea. Might be viable and might not pwn balance of the game in actuality, but will demotivate players to learn the game anew. So no! Not cool!

Bad! Bad!

PS: If you want to increase your magic damage, get Spellshards, Harkons and Codex. I believe spellshards also gives cool-down reduction too. If you want more disable, get Sheepstick. So the combination is your "suggested int" right there. Hope you enjoy.

[Tirrinar]

Hellflower (+71 damage +dmgamp) and Harkon's (best -ehp bar none) are pretty poorly optimized items compared to Wingbow , FWS, Symbol. LAFF

Let's ignore all that Charged Hammer, Riftshards, Shieldbreaker, Savage Mace, Doombringer etc. because you need to build your primary stat!

"plus the lack of ability to compete at all past the 25 minute mark when it comes to damage since most heroes quickly become able to shrug off their burst"
You don't play this game very much at all to say that, no offence.


I think you agreed with me on the first one since I said that HF and Hark were BETTER optimized because of the inferiority of int vs agi as a stat...but I could be misreading your statements.

Charged, SB, Savage, etc are all items you get for either straight up damage or AS unlike AGI they don't give BOTH. Plus this is an INT dps items vs AGI dps items comparasion I was intentionally leaving those items out...and, seriously? Doombringer? It's a gamble item used in desperate scenarios or as a laugh because you're that far ahead.

None offense taken but, I find mildly off-putting that this community falls back to a lack of games played/low mmr as a reason why people know nothing about a game, theorycrafting and hypothetical situations have little reliance on twitch based physical skills that the individual may or may not have. I wonder if S2's finest players on the balance team could beat MSI or some other pro team. Basically just because my stats say I have less than 1k games played(which btw is somewhat innaccurate since I bought a stat reset, then tanked my mmr to play with my 1300[and climbing] brother and then took a 9 month "vacation" to afganistan and then started playing again, so in actuality I only have about 30 games played from under a year ago. Though I have been watching several streams and watched all the VODs' of the last dreamHoN...thing so I'd like to think that my crasp on the CONCEPT of how the game works is fairly solid.

PS Codex uses generally get laughed at or chewed out by both teams, Shards doesn't increase your damage but lowered your opponents EHP(and is countered by an item at 1/4-1/8th it's price depending on upgrades, and Harkons isn't bought to increase spell damage, it's bought to ignore the 20+ armor everyone has when the game gets to the 60 minute mark.

[`11411181]

Yeah, I misread that. *shrug*

My main permabanned account is 1337, and I think this one is hovering around 1500 out of choice (i like being able to play games that have relatively less stress factor involved so i can try new things out on a whim).
I haven't even looked at your stats for reference, but claiming that burst can safely be ignored by a majority of a team from the 25min mark is an argument made from a position of someone who has little to no extensive experience with the game. That just simply doesn't happen, and it's honestly so self-evident that it's dumbfounding that you could even say that. Sorry if you find that offputting.

As for CH, SM, SB etc. - have you not seen that all of those items give MORE than any item with any extensive amount of agility on it? That whole diatribe about agility being so good just doesn't work out in real terms. These items are also stat-neutral, meaning that the whole stat arguments are mostly irrelevant in terms of "better carrying items". Skillsets are the main factor in making a carry, not their primary stat. this is getting to be repeated ad nauseum now.

"It is not prevalent enough? The concept is broken, sloppy design, and forgives ignoring bad positioning since they cannot be disabled or damaged by half the opposing team."
This line of reasoning is typically spouted by converted LoL players - generally players who see the hard cc and spells heroes carry as the only way for certain(often blanketed under INT) heroes to influence a game. This is also simply not the case. Shrunken Head is overpowered by design, since it gives heroes a way to force an advantage for a small window of time. The catch is, they have to create this window - and there are specific direct and indirect counters even to this.

I'd say you're getting there in terms of nuance within the game, but I think there are quite a few holes in terms of understanding specific things. No, your stats don't reflect upon your ability to observe but I'd say you're not quite seeing the same picture we are in terms of what has been and how that's influencing what you're seeing now.
(this isn't meant to be condescending at all, i'm just making an offhand observation in a thread that I feel honestly isn't going to serve any real use in debating the primary consideration)

[TotallyNoob1]

INT heros should get magic armour from it!
I don't believe in the added dmg though.
maybe cast speed.

[Tirrinar]

I'll give that 25 minutes was a rather arbitrary number but after a set amount of time in which most players have had the opportunity to bulk up their health pools as well as attack damage is when, more or less, when casters tend to teeter off in terms of presence when it comes to their damage and healing effects and when what CC they have built into the skillset, if any, becomes more value than what could be their primary role of magical burst damage.

with the straight up damage and AS items, I agree, they are almost undoubtedly more effective when compared with Primary Attribute DPS items, aside from a late-game harkons and it's potential for true damage AAs. I realize that skillsets are what make the carry, which is why we have non-agi carries in this game. However from a focused perspective comparing stats and only stats(which is inaccurate when comparing "who is the harder carry" i know) agility provides more value to a damage dealer than strength does which is more valuable than intelligence. Which is the entire point of this thread as far as I'm aware.

About Shrunken head(you pulled a grand assumption on the LoL comment btw) yes I've played LoL, about 50 matches or so, and yes I even "Enjoy" it to a sense, more towards the emphasis on skillshots and, yes, the validity of casters in a lategame setup, which I find has managed to pull of both AD carries and AP(spellcasting) carries without causing all casters to pull top teir dps lategame. However my dislike with shrunken comes from 2 things: first the sheer frustration of someone running into a team and slashing with abandon and unable to be stopped other than being gunned down by our physical attacks. The second is from playing the game Bloodline Champions, every skill is a skillshot and requires a good degree of aim to hit anything, plus they have no "invincibility" spells that don't put their affected hero in some form of CC state thus they have an excellent way of avoiding damage yet sacrifice something huge as well. As far as I am concerned both Void and SH grant that "invincibility" to roughly half the games roster for a long time, 1-2/3's of a team fight. Which considering the lineup of our, admittedly uncreative, professional gaming community half the roster of most teams as well. I realize BLC and HoN are two ENTIRELY different games however the concept of invulnerability without any downsides is poor design. I hated it in DotA and I hate it in HoN.
I admit that prevalent was probably the wrong terminology for it however you see at least 1 on each side in most games, and is a reccomended item for almost every carry and several non carries. It also gives decent stats, nothing amazing mind you, 190hp and 16(26 for str)damage is always welcome but it's immunity is what makes it a commonly used, broken, item.

Right now the meta for professional games are for fairly short quick win teams, heavy pushes and semi rather than hard carries. So right now nukers are fairly potent matches effectively being over at or soon after their falloff period however; when the meta shifts, and it will, and in lower teir mmr games that do last 45+ minutes where everyone has 2.5k+ hp magic damage is...pitiful and in some cases completely ineffectual towards the overall outcome of the match where that player becomes more of a liability than an asset because of 1 choice he made an hour ago.


I'll be honest i have not been a huge fan of the +2 stats "skill" I personally would have rather seen the cap at 20 with 5 ranks in each spell and 4 levels of an ultimate. One of the reasons (I feel) that casters drop off so quickly is that after lv 16 their spells just stop getting stronger even though they still gain experience. It basically raises the point of the dropoff higher, but it also lowers the max health. However this would be an even bigger change than reworking a single attribute and minor adjustment across the board of any magic damage heavy hero.




On a complete and utter tangent here, Feel Good Inc. is an amazing song.
If I'm coming across as aggravated or "raging" I apologize, I get rather...energetic when I'm talking(or typing as the case may be) about something I care about. I truly enjoy this game but feel that it suffers from some poor throwbacks to an old game that suffered from a very limited engine and much less flexible core.

[PzKw]

First of all, you seem like you were rather upset when you wrote this. Perhaps you should have taken a moment to calm down.

Now I would like to address each of your points, but it is simply impossible for anything to come out of trying to argue such a wild and mostly irrelevant mess. It will just result in an incoherent convolution with a lost purpose. More important than any type of "critical thinking" skill is the skill of simplification: What point is being argued and what basic, concise set of factors are relevant to it at the lowest level? We could go on about agility and intelligence forever. We could analyze its history, analyze average mana costs for different hero types to determine "useful mana breaks", we could come up with all sorts of things to talk about while never solving our problem.

In reality, there are the only two factors in this argument: where are intelligence heroes mid and late game compared to the other two attributes and how
much intelligence do they generally have compared to agillity/strength heroes?

I'll tell you that, on average, a reaonably farmed carry during the midgame with have around 60 int compared to 100-110 on reasonably farmed intelligence heroes. Normal strength heroes will have around 40 int depending on the hero. Of course, oddball int gains are outliers and not factored into that observation.

A good thing to note is the types of int heroes used in DHS. I emphasize the word "note" as it is not truly a key issue. As such, I'm putting it in spoiler tags. The "in" intelligence heroes were Hag, Bubbles, Para, Ophelia, Nymph, Glacius, Polly, Tort, Tempest, and Aluna.
Also note that Tort did not perform very well.

The big similarity between these int heroes (and, interestingly, the disimilarity with tort) is that they are all either have very survivable skillsets (hag, bubs, Para), are very easy to screen (big initiators like Polly and Tempest. Also Aluna with Dejavu), or have ridiculously good skillsets (especially early game) that make it not matter anyway (Nympoh, Glac, Ophe in a general sense).
Tort, on the other, is not a very good initiator, needs to stay alive to be useful, and doesn't have a skillset that helps him stay alive.

Now with the knowledge that int heroes have a little less than double the int of most other heroes and that strength heroes are generally very lacking in intelligence, we can use the intelligence stat as a tool to solve general meta issues. Is there a meta issue right now? One can be argued. That isn't the purpose of this post however. I'm merely simplifying the issue to a managable level and identifying key topics. In addition, I'm demonstrating how manipulating stats can be used to solve these types of balance issues.

For example, say we had a super nuking meta that only allowed heavy nukers to be used. We could add something like .05 magic armor per int to nerf nuking and bring the game more into line while counter-buffing those same nukers who stack int to keep them viable (all in one simple change!).

Manipulating primary stats to fix large game issues is not something to be instantly discarded. It can be a very useful tool for balance and design. Of course, it should be used very sparingly, but don't forget to keep it in the back of your head :)

A wide change like that isn't sparing. It's broad. Very broad. Going back to the examples of Ints you used, precisely the same rules apply to the Str and Agi pickups. The top tier of play is very selective about what's "in" and "viable" in their picks. Going back to DHS we only saw the same 10 or so STR heroes over the whole tournament, and all of them had very specific traits in common. Ditto Agi. Does this in any way indicate that there's a problem with how Strength or Agility scales into the game? However, any broad brush change like this affects the heroes in the game, not just the ones you targetted as "problematic" - it's clumsy.

But in your post you say that the only two questions: where are intelligence heroes mid and lategame compared to the other stats, and how much intelligence do they generally have compared to those same heroes? But this neglects a multitude of other important questions: how easy is intelligence to get (since the attractiveness of it will affect what sort of heroes buy it, so the usage pattern won't be the same as it is now according to your second question), where are intelligence heroes early game compared to the other stats (since the relative strength and weakness at different phases of the game warrants question when talking about the total balance of these things), do these archetypes hold against real examples, and so on.

I'm too tired to go into this further. I'm not saying my post is flawless, nor is my argument, what I am saying is that you're being incredibly one eyed in your framing of this argument. You have set the goalposts so wide apart and your burden of proof so low that you can't help but kick a goal. I completely agree that anything in the game is fair game for balance and design (design is essentially the art of deciding what sort of game you want), and I'm very cognisant that you could make a workable game with int scaling. I'm not that narrow minded or stupid, I just happen to think that it's a wonderfully terrible idea in HoN with everything the way it actually is.

@Antimodus
The way the argument is presented makes it appear that it's based on the lowest level of Agi to be at that frames/attack, but the point I was making is that the benefits of Agi even to an Agi hero, across a decent data set, are actually not the most amazing for scaling. You would have to actually look at various total +IAS' to see how much agi you'd be wasting on a purchase, but the fundamental point is that lategame you're nearly always wasting agi (ie. agi becomes a much less gold efficient stat lategame, contrary to every popular belief), and stat growths probably don't contribute much at all to your IAS lategame at all.

[Antimodus]

Skillsets are the main factor in making a carry, not their primary stat.

Agree on this point, but the issue is not really primary stat. It's not that INT sucks as a primary stat, it's that having high INT gain with crappy STR and AGI gain is a pure liability past a certain point.

Fact is, INT has a rapid falloff in usefulness past about ~80 or so. At least on heroes that aren't Vindicator (scales directly with INT) or Tort, DR SR (can utilize a gigantic mana pool) or a couple of Restoration stone users with huge mana costs (Temp PWP).

On most heroes, beyond a certain point +INT, whether from items or stat gain, is just +dmg at best (if you're INT primary) or 100% worthless at worst. Which then the makes items that feature big +INT suddenly overpriced. This is mostly a problem when you try to balance an item like Frostfield plate. It makes balancing INT items harder because either you balance it for being a good 1st big item, and if it's not it basically means the INT component of the item lost almost all of its value.

The solution was to make the big INT items have incredibly powerful actives (Harkon's HF Sheep). That's a real design limitation, that's why it is so hard to get FFP to work as an item. Any big INT item has to be 1 of these 3 options
1. justified almost entirely by its active
2. too strong if gotten early (too cheap and early INT is strong)
3. too weak if gotten late (expensive and INT is useless)

E: So that's the logic behind those buff INT threads. Best thing would be a buff that only takes effect at higher INT values. Like say +1 base magic armor per ~15 INT above 80

[Tomate]

We all would have liked the function to be put in place right away... it was 1 of the great innovation of LOL but to have scaling spells. The fact that it wasn't put in place at the beginning simply makes it impossible to just dumb in an additional formula now. The best example I can think of is how broken heroes with physical damage dealing spells would be end game.

Think of torturer with the following end game items: Tablet, Null, Totem, Treads on INT: 14+15+35+10 = 74 bonus int. Now, let's pretend his target has as much int as him prior to items (hypothetical case), torturer just got a 74% bonus damage and disable duration??? Do you know how much damage that is. This is without taking into account the fact that torturer is 1 of the highest natural int hero in the game. His impale would now deal 2088 physical damage?

OK, what ever, let's look at hag with Null, Treads, Totem and HellFlower... Natural build for her: 15+10+35+30 = 90 int bonus... meaning her sonar scream will deal 570 int bonus damage if she's at the same int as the other hero prior to items? She would virtually 1shot a glacius... Not to mention that Hell Flower would last 5+ seconds and sheep stick 4+ seconds...

It would be completely ground breaking and not helping the heroes you think it would. Mid to late game, supports would be even more useless than they are, int carries would be the only thing existing as STR and Agi heroes would be disabled for ever due to int difference.

[Hsssh]

It's not that INT sucks as a primary stat, it's that having high INT gain with crappy STR and AGI gain is a pure liability past a certain point.

At what point Bubbles is liability? Wretched Hag? Tempest? Please define what is crappy STR/AGI gain, combination of both is lower than 3.5 or what?


The solution was to make the big INT items have incredibly powerful actives

As opposed to big agi items like Wingbow and Genjuro? Nobody would buy them if they didn't have stupidly strong benefits not related to any stats.


That's a real design limitation, that's why it is so hard to get FFP to work as an item.

Main problem of FFP was Hellflower and Sheepstick being insanely stronger items at similar price point. Now when both were nerfed FFP stands as much better item and saw occasional pick ups when Elephant was popular hero. Another problem with FPP is that many new heroes have clearvision therefore clearvision it provides is less desirable.

Also can someone give a reason(asides of "hard support Glacius sucks at 70min game") why every stat should be equally important and scale equally thru the game?

[Rob4z]

Id suggest int decreases cast time by 0.0x ( replace x with fitting number).
adding 1% from every int would just break the game.

[changlingbob]

Id suggest int decreases cast time by 0.0x ( replace x with fitting number).
adding 1% from every int would just break the game.
Any ideas what the numbers should be like? Do you have any use cases for your numbers? I note you think that 1% per int would break the game; do you want to elucidate on why it would break the game, but some other number would not? If some other number would not break the game, would that number be noticable in circumstances where a slightly larger number did not break the game? Why is cast speed a good mechanic to attach to int? Is it better than other mechanics you have discarded? Does it have any problems that may need to be watched carefully if implemented? How would it affect the balance of items such as hellflower, sheepstick or ffp?

In short: have you put any thought into this suggestion, or did you just poop out the first thing you thought of?

[Epidemilk]

How about we forget the whole thing, lest there be any more accusations of "turning into LoL"

[`11411181]

I find it a bit misleading to say everything scales in LoL, therefore everyone has the incentive to farm. The latter may be true, but it's definitely not because of the former. Given that skills all scale at different discrete rates, LoL actually has a lot more fine control over which skills end up truly being worth building to scale for. It's a system that can give a lot more control over a hero's optimal itembuild, but also has the obvious downside of being very heavy on the fineprint and backend maths to actually test it.

[Rosvall]

What about adding a luxury item, maybe an upgrade to staff, that does something like this: "Spell damage is increased by ([Average damage]*0.2)%"

So having 200 damage will increase spell damage by 40%. 300 damage will increase spell damage by 60% etc.

An item like this will in essence work just as spell shards works early in the game, but be a late game item which is more potent. It allows farming nukers with bad auto attacks, such as thunderbringer, to contribute more in the late stages of the game.

[Rob4z]

Any ideas what the numbers should be like? Do you have any use cases for your numbers? I note you think that 1% per int would break the game; do you want to elucidate on why it would break the game, but some other number would not? If some other number would not break the game, would that number be noticable in circumstances where a slightly larger number did not break the game? Why is cast speed a good mechanic to attach to int? Is it better than other mechanics you have discarded? Does it have any problems that may need to be watched carefully if implemented? How would it affect the balance of items such as hellflower, sheepstick or ffp?

In short: have you put any thought into this suggestion, or did you just poop out the first thing you thought of?

Yes i just threw a random idea, cause I don't really support the idea that INT gives magic damage, all the skills deal XX damage and +XX on Level 4,
Not saying that the magic damage is a totally horrible idea, but it would def break the game.

And for my idea i just realised that | 1 int = -1 cast time | would be enuf. Thats just a random idea I threw to replace the damage bonus from INT.

[changlingbob]

Spells don't need to scale, because they are better earlier, while autoattacks are better later because they scale. This is the whole reason for the support-carry dynamic. Sometimes you get midgame heroes, who typically have a strong autoattack while also having spells, such as valkyrie, or strong enough spells to just kill heroes or towers, see thunderbringer or torturer respectively (among other things). This is the way the entire game is set up.

Any item that boosts spell damage means the midgame lasts longer. Spellshards fits this role as a midgame spelldamage item, but could be a better designed item in some respects, as it's a direct increase on how much damage spells do with no effort or fore-thought put into it. If one looks at veil of discord from dota, it requires landing an ability on people to debuff them, although it debuffs for everyone. This makes it a team item, more fitting of how spellcaster heroes are set up; survive and reign the midgame, then fall off as autoattacking takes over and support the team more.

Adding a lategame item that boosts spell damage is missing the point. Any spelldamage hero that picks it up has almost certainly fallen off, and might be propped up to just below useful; a sheepstick is almost certainly going to benefit the team more. An exception here is snowballing spellcasters, such as hag or pebbles, who can stomp midgame and force that into a win. Hag would buy such an item and continue to get kills while her team's autoattackers catch up to win, and pebbles builds items to become an autoattacker.

Adding an early game item that boosts spell damage (and I'm going to put the 'int scales spell damage' suggestion in here as well) means that most spellcasters, including strength heroes like behemoth and agility heroes like slither, become roflstompingly strong trains of death if said item/effect is any good, due to the fact that spells are already strong in the early game.

Any change that alters this build up and fall off of spell damage has to take into account that this is how the entire game is built.

[Gorb]

I would like to reiterate that outright suggestions are to be avoided, on pain of targeted post deletion(s).

As to not break conversation flow, the previous posts have been left intact. However, Rob4z, from this point forward, posts will start vanishing if they don't feature some form of reasoned debate. Especially considering the effort going into peoples' replies to you.

[moj0j0]

Thank you for every comments, after i've read a lot of comments in here(some i can't understand due to my poor English, sorry :( ) The most topic you talk about are:
1. This change will make ground breaking due to OP magic damage
This can’t be come true because…
As I already explain at first, INT stat also increase magic armor which mean 100 INT enemy have won’t deal 100% bonus damage to you because your magic armor will help you reduce that.
E.G. Torturer with the following end game items: Tablet, Null, Totem, Treads on INT: 14+15+35+10 = 74 bonus int plus INT from himself at level 25(121 int total) he will have 121 + 74 = 195 total INT = 195% bonus magic damage
(assume his base magic damage spell is 300 dmg, with 195% bonus he gain, he deal 300x1.95= 585 magic damage instead) sound terrible for STR and AGI heroes?
Well if he use that spell to The Dark Lady at level 25(16 + 1.9*25 + 20 = 83.5 total INT = 11.9 magic armor, plus 5 magic armor that every heroes have she will have 16.9 armor in total which = 49% magic damage reduction) so The Dark Lady take = 585 x ((100-49)/100) = 298 damage, which isn’t deal much damage compare with old formula
For old formula, The dark Lady will take 300 x .75(from her base magic armor) = 225 damage
So the damage difference between new and old formula is just = 298 – 225 = 73 damage(approximately ½ - 1 auto attack hit at late game)
Conclustion: this change won’t make magic damage Over Power for INT based heroes in my opinion as I explain above.


2. This change will make ground breaking due to OP Effect duration
Okay, 1% effect duration seem too much after I calculate by compare with Torturer with items at the first question(195 total int) and The Dark lady at level 25(83.5 total int), 195 – 83.5 = 111.5% effect duration seem too effective, 0.5% or 0.3% should be ok
Conclusion: 1% effect duration should be nerfed, and use 0.5 or 0.3 % or fitting number instead (or event nerf its base effect duration).

The reason I want this change is : I want to see HON difference from DOTA , why magic armor must be fix and why INT based heroes must too weak in late game(I’m one who play support quite often due to most people choose carry all the time) They should shinable at late game but not too OP by improve INT stat bonus which make them have more survivability to all effect that done by AGI or STR heroes(because they are fragile and low DPS), improve a bit of effect duration which make them do support role better than now.

And last, everything I suggest can changeable, if you think it look bad, thank you for all comments.

We all would have liked the function to be put in place right away... it was 1 of the great innovation of LOL but to have scaling spells. The fact that it wasn't put in place at the beginning simply makes it impossible to just dumb in an additional formula now. The best example I can think of is how broken heroes with physical damage dealing spells would be end game.

Think of torturer with the following end game items: Tablet, Null, Totem, Treads on INT: 14+15+35+10 = 74 bonus int. Now, let's pretend his target has as much int as him prior to items (hypothetical case), torturer just got a 74% bonus damage and disable duration??? Do you know how much damage that is. This is without taking into account the fact that torturer is 1 of the highest natural int hero in the game. His impale would now deal 2088 physical damage?

OK, what ever, let's look at hag with Null, Treads, Totem and HellFlower... Natural build for her: 15+10+35+30 = 90 int bonus... meaning her sonar scream will deal 570 int bonus damage if she's at the same int as the other hero prior to items? She would virtually 1shot a glacius... Not to mention that Hell Flower would last 5+ seconds and sheep stick 4+ seconds...

It would be completely ground breaking and not helping the heroes you think it would. Mid to late game, supports would be even more useless than they are, int carries would be the only thing existing as STR and Agi heroes would be disabled for ever due to int difference.

[Skyve]

You should check your math again. At a 1% increase of magic damage per point of int you reach a 195% INCREASE in damage - meaning the skill would be dealing 295% of its base damage, or 885 magic damage. With the magic amor values you calculated that goes down to 451 effective damage. Which is more than twice the damage a 300 magic damage nuke would be doing right now.

Further, you fail to point out why intelligence is underpowered (while a lot of people here spent a lot of effort in explaining why that is not the case).

[SomethingOdd]

+1 magic armor/7 INT
Yeah, won't make heroes OP.
Armadon has about 100 Int at level 25, With this change, he'd have just over 14.25 magic armor, with shamans and starting MA that's 29.75 magic armor on ARMADON
Thank Scout spikes don't do magic damage

[Farosarg]

You also draw the conclusion after giving just one example when thanks to the suggested scaling the ranges would bounce about pretty madly into really large differences. HoN is already a lot more different than Dota than people think. Sure making further differences might be a good idea as long as it evolves the genre forward but it has to be smart changes and honestly the suggested int change is pretty half-assed and not really completely thought through.

As to when it comes to caster scaling mechanics, with a lot of work the system would be useful in a new game which is balanced around something like this from the start.

[moj0j0]

Thank you for point out, i calculate wrong :( , as i admit i speak poor English, i need some time to make word to type in here later.



You should check your math again. At a 1% increase of magic damage per point of int you reach a 195% INCREASE in damage - meaning the skill would be dealing 295% of its base damage, or 885 magic damage. With the magic amor values you calculated that goes down to 451 effective damage. Which is more than twice the damage a 300 magic damage nuke would be doing right now.

Further, you fail to point out why intelligence is underpowered (while a lot of people here spent a lot of effort in explaining why that is not the case).

[Spaghettix]

I seriously cant understand how this thread can be approved at all. Inteligence heroes have strong early game, they are not made to scale with progress of the game(although most of them do actually: Pyro can go dps items). This thread is all kinds of crazy and i dont think HoN needs to go in to LoL mode.

[Tomate]

To original poster, your part about this: 'E.G. Torturer with the following end game items: Tablet, Null, Totem, Treads on INT: 14+15+35+10 = 74 bonus int plus INT from himself at level 25(121 int total) he will have 121 + 74 = 195 total INT = 195% bonus magic damage
(assume his base magic damage spell is 300 dmg, with 195% bonus he gain, he deal 300x1.95= 585 magic damage instead) sound terrible for STR and AGI heroes?
Well if he use that spell to The Dark Lady at level 25(16 + 1.9*25 + 20 = 83.5 total INT = 11.9 magic armor, plus 5 magic armor that every heroes have she will have 16.9 armor in total which = 49% magic damage reduction) so The Dark Lady take = 585 x ((100-49)/100) = 298 damage, which isn’t deal much damage compare with old formula
For old formula, The dark Lady will take 300 x .75(from her base magic armor) = 225 damage
So the damage difference between new and old formula is just = 298 – 225 = 73 damage(approximately ½ - 1 auto attack hit at late game)
Conclustion: this change won’t make magic damage Over Power for INT based heroes in my opinion as I explain above.'

Your math are completely wrong. If for example with 195 int you say that torturer will deal 195% of 300 = 585 damage, at level 7 with 50 int, his nuke will deal 50% of 300 = 150 damage? This is the biggest blow to any magic damage. This means that Pyro, at level 6 with no items will have 24+3.2*5 = 40 int meaning his ultimate will deal : 450 * 40% = 180 damage - armor reduction of the enemy?

You can't have both, it either is that Torturer will in fact deal 885 damage with 195 int or that pyro will deal 180 damage with his level 1 ultimate and no items. Either way, you can see there is something wrong, even more wrong when looking into heroes like Chutlu... 18 + 1.8*5 = 27 int at level 6 meaning his beams will deal a stunning 80 * 27% = 21.6 damage per beam lol.

As you can see, your idea doesn't make any sens. Either way is wrong. Having a Wretched Hag as mentioned before at level 25 with Treads, Null, Totem, HellFlower = 24+(2.5*24)+10+15+35+20 = 184 int = dealing 852 damage with scream and 1789.2 with her ult OR at level 7 with no + int items, she will have 24+2.4*6 = 38.4 int meaning her scream will deal 300*.384 = 115.2 and her ultimate 270*.384 = 104 damage...

As you can see, both scenarios are absolutely outrageous. Either way that you did your math make no sens, you cannot say that torturer will deal 585 at level 25 with those items without assuming that he will deal about 150 at level 7.

Cheers, your proposal is failed, this should been put in place a LONG time ago, unfortunately, the game isn't balanced to simply push in such a system. You also didn't take into account the effect on creeps... Are creeps assumed to be at 0 int? Do their magic armor start increasing over time to keep it balanced (but at the same time, making it even harder for supports to kill them with spells...

And just to show you how badly this doesn't work... The case of Torturer would be even more interesting on Impalement... How would you deal with a spell that deals physical damage... With 194 int, it would deal over 3000 physical damage... Or is this spell not receiving any bonus since it doesn't deal magic damage making it a not so scaling spell? Same with Deadwood's ultimate, scaling or not?

I mean, the concept is interesting, but the simple truth is that you cannot simply push this into the game. As you can see from above, both scenarios make no sens and too many spells would have weird consequences...

[Fen__]

I love this idea !!!!!11!!!!11!!!11!1one!oneone!1!eleeven!!

Who wants to fight boring and long teamfights, instead we can make int increase spell dmg, pick bombardier buy sheep/hellflower get over 130 int and destroy whole enemy team with 1 ultimate ! Awesome idea game would get so interesting and player skill based !

[Ekamo]

This thread has gone on for long enough.

Thread closed.