Bottle Share in Competition

[Euphoria]

Has anyone thought of donating a bottle from a support hero to the solo at the start of the game, giving the solo lane near unmatched dominance? With a quick bird, you would give solo bottle/crow ability on top of whatever other items they may go (boots comes to mind first as terribly noob as it sounds, it may be viable).

Certain heroes are incredibly item independent early game or provide enough pressure in lane to be safe. Plague Rider, Succubus (arguable), Ophelia (questionable what items she truly needs before level 3/5), hellbringer. Has anyone else thought of testing this out? Often times the game is decided by the solo's performance and not so much the side lane interactions especially if it's fairly even lineups.

Never seen it done before and perhaps for good reason, but it may create some interesting lineups/situations?

[Zejety]

This sounds like an interesting strategy. I'd like to know as well.

[edeirme]

if the support spents 600 gold to give the bottle to the solo laner is a stupid guy . on a 5v5 600 is all you have. this will make his extreme vulrunable. In the other hand if the support guy gets a chicken courrier will be a lot better. buying a courrier will provide the supporter 400 more gold
or if he buys a flying one 200 gold for trees and potions

[Forfeit]

The donor would have to have good survival skills, and be in a lane against a team that is unable to harass, or this would backfire pretty bad.

[Darkstrand]

Sounds retarded

[Rassefrasse]

This have been done a million times (and i've also seen it in competetive cm games in HoN). Just watch idec replays from dota and you'll find that tactic in some of the games.

Nothing new.

[esoteric]

Item pooling, even of technically shareable items like bottle, is illegal in most (read: all) tournaments.

[Jimb0v]

Item pooling, even of technically shareable items like bottle, is illegal in most (read: all) tournaments.

This is not true.

[HunteR_]

buying a bottle and giving it to another player not in your lane is considered illegal in HoN League.

Nothing you can do about it in pubs.

[chu]

why do I suddenly feel like a guilty man

[EvanJO]

buying a bottle and giving it to another player not in your lane is considered illegal in HoN League.

Nothing you can do about it in pubs.

That has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard (read?) in my entire life.

[knowitall]

That has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard (read?) in my entire life.

It's basically pooling through a loophole and most leagues/tournaments specifically ban sharing for long periods of time.

[DrexlSpivey]

buying a bottle and giving it to another player not in your lane is considered illegal in HoN League.

Nothing you can do about it in pubs.
Should unscrew that sideways hat, its cutting off the blood to your brain, cuz thats the most retarded rule i've seen.

[_Archangel_]

Allowed sharing items


Sentry wards
Observer wards
Clarity Potion
Flasks of Sapphire Water
Chickens (for usage)
Ring of Regeneration
Ring of Health
Sobi Mask
Void Stone
Perserverance
TP Scroll is allowed to be given to another player permanently
Ancient Tango of Essifation is allowed to be given to another player
Cheese
Aegis
Gem of Truesight is allowed to be given to another player
Bottle only if it is not empty

I guess you can't fully just give the Bottle to an ally then.

[HunteR_]

All DotA Leagues, Tournaments and Events don't allow item pooling. There's a difference between sharing, and pooling. Item pooling is giving someone an item without the intent of getting it back within a short amount of time. Having someone in your lane grab your bottle use a charge and give it back is much different than a player who buys a bottle for a player in another lane. That's not sharing, that's just abusing item pooling with sharable items.

Those of you that think item pooling is legal don't play dota competitively, nor know the rules. You're probably the same people that think backdooring someone's base is also dumb to ban.



While you're at it, you should buy a couple of 375 gold healing trinkets at start and give them to your solo as well.

[Blitzl0l]

Glad to see you edited your post to not sound like such a dick. I'll follow suit.

Trinkets aren't 375.

[zhatan]

Like ppl already said, pooling = cheating. In every mayor tournament, in HoN pub whatever goes. As with all the other rules BD/limit on disables/creepblocking with behemot.

[Glorify1]

Only hero that can really donate a bottle is hellbringer.

[Azureflames]

Only hero that can really donate a bottle is hellbringer.

Or if there's a rune fight and your team draws first blood, whoever got the kill could donate one.

[DeagleTColt]

so. About half the people in this thread say that item pooling such as giving a bottle to your mid solo is banned. And the other half simply flame on about having this opinion. I've played a few competitive games of dota and in all of them item pooling was strictly forbidden, with the sole exception of trees (ie. runes) but I've yet to play league HoN.

With a natural instinct to distrust people who can give no input except "omgz ur super retarded for thinking that" and the fact that a item independant support team could easily pool their carry to insane levels by 15 min into game I'm lead to think that buying a bottle for your solo mid WOULD be disallowed in most higher level HoN games.

In reference to the original question however, yeah it definetly could be done viably. All you'd need was a hero laning with a good babysitter who was item independant. Ie. Demented, Witch Doctor, Nymphora etc..

But again, feel free to actually post points and opinions rather than rage.

[NoctisFaytE]

me and my friend do this if he feels like playing oph and I am the carry for the team.

It works amazingly. (almost as good as the time I went double bottle for lols)

[Fenald]

so. About half the people in this thread say that item pooling such as giving a bottle to your mid solo is banned. And the other half simply flame on about having this opinion. I've played a few competitive games of dota and in all of them item pooling was strictly forbidden, with the sole exception of trees (ie. runes) but I've yet to play league HoN.

With a natural instinct to distrust people who can give no input except "omgz ur super retarded for thinking that" and the fact that a item independant support team could easily pool their carry to insane levels by 15 min into game I'm lead to think that buying a bottle for your solo mid WOULD be disallowed in most higher level HoN games.

In reference to the original question however, yeah it definetly could be done viably. All you'd need was a hero laning with a good babysitter who was item independant. Ie. Demented, Witch Doctor, Nymphora etc..

But again, feel free to actually post points and opinions rather than rage.

Theres no such thing as an item independent babysitter.

If you don't have life and mana you're not babysitting you're leeching experience.

[Tanubis]

I honestly don't think something like this SHOULD be banned. Both sides can do it. I really don't think creep blocking or backdooring should be banned either. I've tried doing all of these in scrims; they are all difficult strategies to pull off, even with a team of 5 organized players, and really dont offer gamebreaking advantages to the team who tries any of them, so it's not like if it's allowed it's required or you have no chance. It's valid strategy, the rules of the engine allow it, so why make up artificial rules to dissallow it and remove depth from the game? The particular strat here of bottle sharing has an easy counter - make that support lane pay for it huge, and let your carry gank the super squishy guy who donated the bottle for extra xp.

[hatz]

I honestly don't think something like this SHOULD be banned. Both sides can do it. I really don't think creep blocking or backdooring should be banned either. I've tried doing all of these in scrims; they are all difficult strategies to pull off, even with a team of 5 organized players, and really dont offer gamebreaking advantages to the team who tries any of them, so it's not like if it's allowed it's required or you have no chance. It's valid strategy, the rules of the engine allow it, so why make up artificial rules to dissallow it and remove depth from the game? The particular strat here of bottle sharing has an easy counter - make that support lane pay for it huge, and let your carry gank the super squishy guy who donated the bottle for extra xp.

Dude couldn't agree more. Why eliminate depth from the game? All strategies should be welcomed. That's what makes this game so addicting and competitive, all the strats involved.

[Euphoria]

If you want to restrict it to non-empty bottles, then what about crow bottling to your teammate? Essentially the same thing, but you can consider it a near constant share of a full bottle. There can be no grey area on it if it's allowed to be shared or not and I don't understand the hate for it since it's really not the greatest strategy, but it may have its uses.

[HunteR_]

Abuse is abuse in my book. I could care less what you do in a pub, but not allowed in the HoN League Tournaments or Ladder Tanubis.

If you're not a competitive hon player, then you have nothing to worry about.

[Dukamok]

Lot of people that don't see the difference between sharing and pooling... O_o

[Jimb0v]

Abuse is abuse in my book. I could care less what you do in a pub, but not allowed in the HoN League Tournaments or Ladder Tanubis.

If you're not a competitive hon player, then you have nothing to worry about.

Uh, this has been done in high level matches in your own tournament. Hasn't it?

[TowerDive]

pyro glacius top lane, (glacius buys bottle for mid) (pyro gets 4 sets of tangos and 4 mana pots) and they bot split them equaly.

That could work.

[HunteR_]

Exactly, that was Icefrog's argument when he and I first had this discussion years ago. In the past you could give other heroes items and they would be active, as a matter of fact, a strategy in asian teams back in early competitive dota days was to get every hero buying dps/attack speed items, and then giving it to bone clinkz along with rapier and aegis. Anyone who's old school like me will remember this.

It was after that myself, and the other DotA leagues/Tournaments followed suit to ban item pooling. In my DXD League we were the first to have a rule on which items were allowed to share, and limits on how many of of certain items a team could have.

This first spawned from the Mekansim. It used to stack, so you could have a team with 3-4 Mekansim and never have to go back in a fight due to constant health, stack that with 2 arcane rings, your team was fully recharged every 20 seconds.

Icefrog's argument with me during these times looking at the Rules I set for CAL-Dota and DXD League he questioned why we didn't ban item sharing all together. I rationalized that sharing items like intangibles and health/man regen items were acceptable as long as heroes were not sharing with the intent to not returning the items.

That was long before the bottle was even an item in DotA, since the bottle the rules have become more complex due to the issue of abuse. Especially now in HoN since flying couriers can pink up runes in a bottle inventory we run into major abuse issues.

The goal of the rules isn't to "remove depth", it's to thwart abuse.

IceFrog understood this, and took the necessary steps to prevent this. Before DXD Rules there were no "standards" for competitive play in DotA, it was still just a custom map people played for fun. S2 Understands the importance of this issue for the game's future as a competitive e-Sport, I know it's been brought up for discussion to deal with.

I know S2 Games has the strive for HoN to be a competitive game for e-Sports and establishing these rules for HoN are easy since it's the same rules we've used for years in our DotA Leagues, and Tournaments.

[ZeLinK]

Banning pooling, banning backdooring, limiting items on a team, banning gems on crows, etc... You're not "thwarting abuse" - you're removing strategies... Though it seems some HoN competitions now allow backdooring, which I find interesting. Like pooling, it was only banned because some people didn't like playing against it. Ironic that some people hate pooling but support backdooring - there's no argument against/for one that doesn't apply to the other.

You claim you're not removing depth, but that's all you're actually doing. These strategies aren't imbalanced - you just don't want to have to take measures to prevent / counter them.

Also don't remember arcane being in the game when mekansm heal stacked, but I could be wrong, and that's beside the point.

[PoolShark]

, it was only banned because some people didn't like playing against it. Ironic that some people hate pooling but support backdooring - there's no argument against/for one that doesn't apply to the other. Sure there is, look at the effects - Pooling makes KotL the best hero in the game hands down. Backdooring does not. Backdooring gives bonuses to heros with solid escape mechanisms and high DPS against incompetent teams who cannot coordinate defense. In 9/10 games where backdooring occurred, would the outcome have been any different without it? No. In the 1/10 it does make a difference its just weakening the top tier heros like behemoth/all aoe heroes that benefit from grouping - as if this game isn't a complete mass aoe metagame rapefest to begin with - why in god's name would you not want to nerf aoe heroes?


These strategies aren't imbalanced - you just don't want to have to take measures to prevent / counter them. Because what, you enjoy seeing a race between who can mass stack an outpicked carry? Congrats your supports can stack better than the other teams, now you can sit back while Spectre goes rambo for the annihilation.

[Jrix]

If I'm babysitting a carry and I get bottle first, and he ends up using it almost all the time, does this count as pooling?

[Fenald]

Before DXD Rules there were no "standards" for competitive play in DotA, it was still just a custom map people played for fun.

****ing lol'd.

Hunter is delusional.

PS I'm about 80% sure that stacking mek was nerfed before arcane ring was added.

ZeLink pooling and backdooring are nothing alike. Pooling is a strategy that can only be beat by pooling. Allowing pooling is removing every other strategy that isn't pooling.

Pooling was never intended in dota which is why gold transferring was never allowed.

Backdooring has tons of counters and the answer to backdooring is almost never to backdoor the other team back.

Look at the GR tournaments and you'll see almost no use of backdooring because in most cases it's easily countered. The most common backdooring you'll see is skipping creeps after killing all/most of the enemy team to attack the base faster. The counter here is to not die in the first place.

If pooling were allowed it would be done in EVERY competitive game.

[HunteR_]

Fenald needs a history lesson :)

mek stack was what every one did before it was nerfed. Pooling was argued back then just as much as backdooring is argued now. That's why IceFrog built in mechanics to prevent backdooring in DotA's recent maps, it promoted team battles, not picking nyphora and tping your team to the other team's base and seeing how much your team can destroy until the other team tps or runs back.

Pooling WAS allowed, and it was in every game before the rules were set, myself and CAL-Kittle made those rules over 4 years ago.

IceFrog removed backdooring and item pooling to limit abuse, and promote team play. I applaud him for being the creator of the best damn game ever, and S2 Games for following suit.

[china]

So if Fenald buys me 35 tangos, that's illegal?

[HunteR_]

Nope, enjoy

[Fenald]

Fenald needs a history lesson :)

mek stack was what every one did before it was nerfed. Pooling was argued back then just as much as backdooring is argued now. That's why IceFrog built in mechanics to prevent backdooring in DotA's recent maps, it promoted team battles, not picking nyphora and tping your team to the other team's base and seeing how much your team can destroy until the other team tps or runs back.

Pooling WAS allowed, and it was in every game before the rules were set, myself and CAL-Kittle made those rules over 4 years ago.

IceFrog removed backdooring and item pooling to limit abuse, and promote team play. I applaud him for being the creator of the best damn game ever, and S2 Games for following suit.
I didn't say no one stacked meks go read. The 2 weren't mutually exclusive I was just pointing out that you're saying **** that isn't even true.

If you think backdooring has as much impact on this game as pooling then you're just flat out incompetent.

IceFrog didn't build mechanics (unless they were added since I quit that quite literally stop you from damaging buildings without creeps around) to prevent backdooring he built mechanics to HINDER backdooring. It was a balance change.

There were tournaments when guinsoo was still making the map that had item pooling banned.

Feel free to update your history books with proper knowledge.

[Kennedy]

****ing lol'd.

Hunter is delusional.

PS I'm about 80% sure that stacking mek was nerfed before arcane ring was added.

ZeLink pooling and backdooring are nothing alike. Pooling is a strategy that can only be beat by pooling. Allowing pooling is removing every other strategy that isn't pooling.

Pooling was never intended in dota which is why gold transferring was never allowed.

Backdooring has tons of counters and the answer to backdooring is almost never to backdoor the other team back.

Look at the GR tournaments and you'll see almost no use of backdooring because in most cases it's easily countered. The most common backdooring you'll see is skipping creeps after killing all/most of the enemy team to attack the base faster. The counter here is to not die in the first place.

If pooling were allowed it would be done in EVERY competitive game.

Wrong, back in the RoC days I used to give away all my gold before I'd die.

[Fenald]

Wrong, back in the RoC days I used to give away all my gold before I'd die.
Not the same dota.

[china]

What Fenald is saying is that..

We're not your sheep, and you're not our shepherd!!1!

[DeagleTColt]

Theres no such thing as an item independent babysitter.

If you don't have life and mana you're not babysitting you're leeching experience.

Sorry, my post was a little ambiguious, you misinterpreted what I meant. I meant a non item independant hero IN A LANE WITH a babysitter, the babysitter being the one who hasn't donated and hence will have items. Aka a Demented shaman donates the bottle and lanes with a nymph. They would survive early game fine with heals and mana until demented could farm up some items, a pretty easy task with nymph babysitting.

[DeagleTColt]

Fenald needs a history lesson :)

mek stack was what every one did before it was nerfed. Pooling was argued back then just as much as backdooring is argued now. That's why IceFrog built in mechanics to prevent backdooring in DotA's recent maps, it promoted team battles, not picking nyphora and tping your team to the other team's base and seeing how much your team can destroy until the other team tps or runs back.

Pooling WAS allowed, and it was in every game before the rules were set, myself and CAL-Kittle made those rules over 4 years ago.

IceFrog removed backdooring and item pooling to limit abuse, and promote team play. I applaud him for being the creator of the best damn game ever, and S2 Games for following suit.

Feneld wasnt arguing that mek stack didnt happen. He was saying it was fixed BEFORE arcane ring was added to the game. Hence, he was not arguing against your points but picking out something irrelevant to the topic. Hence why he said "this is off topic anyway" (*paraphrase)

And as far as I've known, especially since nymphora has been added to the game, tping inside the enemy's base and killing buildings without your creeps being inside has been forbidden. In fact I think the old dota rules used to specifically say that tping to an enemies base without creeps was the ONLY form of backdooring not allowed.

Item pooling has never been allowed in any tournament I've played, though I'm aware that this does not mean it's NEVER been allowed nor even that it SHOULD be disallowed.

In my opinion though, item pooling should be banned (excepting cases such as runes etc) .The heroes of Newerth are balanced specifically on an estimated gold income (a reason why em games throw the carry vs non item dependant balance out).

By item pooling you are allowing one hero to acheive a gold gain insanely above what he could ever get farming himself. This allows item dependant heroes (ie. soulstealer, madman, sandwraith etc) to swing the balance of the game and get to end game status well before the natural balance of the game intended them to. If his teammates are coupled together in pairs that require low item dependance this advantage becomes so complete that the other team is forced to endure defeat or pool THEIR carry.

Backdooring is simply a playstyle that has counters and though on ways needed to be hindered (read: hindered, not banned) whereas pooling completely throws the balance of the game and makes it about something completely different.

EDIT: By runes i mean runes of the blight, not the river runes. :)

[TurboJyri]

Pooling as a strategy works pretty well in pubs, but sadly its forbidden in most leagues.

[zhatan]

The most common backdooring you'll see is skipping creeps after killing all/most of the enemy team to attack the base faster. The counter here is to not die in the first place.

If pooling were allowed it would be done in EVERY competitive game.


Sounds like the normal 10 year old replay when S2/Icefrog intruduce a new unbalanced hero, just gank him repeatedly and he will be bad.
If thats the case there is no problem with a pooled hero too, just kill him.

We both know that logic is flawed and that you are just trying to be an ass.

Hunter been hosting alot of great tournies for a long time and knows what he is doing, obviously you dont. I ****ing lol'ed.

[HunteR_]

No need to disrespect Fenald, I respect his input as I do yours. I encourage discussion on the matter. It is always good to see other sides of arguments. I think we are all on the same page here, Fenald himself said backdooring and item pooling isn't used much in competitive play. More reason for me to believe banning it is for the better, since it closes the door to abuse of something hardly used anyways.

[WaRDeN]

chu` used to do this occasionally

requires an exceptionally submissive b1tch support player though

[Pyrate]

it all comes down to old school mentality. People cried about it 5 years ago so someone decided to ban it. It caught on. Pros dont like games where there are a lot of viable strats, it makes their job harder, so banning things is just a way to restrict possible scenarios, giving them more time to concentrate on the same tactics for a year.


buying a bottle and giving it to another player not in your lane is considered illegal in HoN League.

Nothing you can do about it in pubs.


Really, if thats the case you really should put it in the rules, coz otherwise you could have a pissed off team.

http://www.honleague.com/index.php?pageid=rules

[Fenald]

No need to disrespect Fenald, I respect his input as I do yours. I encourage discussion on the matter. It is always good to see other sides of arguments. I think we are all on the same page here, Fenald himself said backdooring and item pooling isn't used much in competitive play. More reason for me to believe banning it is for the better, since it closes the door to abuse of something hardly used anyways.
No I said backdooring is rarely used even when allowed because most situations it isn't a good idea and in the situations where it is a good idea it isn't "abuse" it's ****ing strategy. Saying backdooring is abuse is like saying killing kongor is abuse because just like backdooring to kill kongor you already have to have an advantage.

I never said pooling isn't used much I said if it were allowed EVERYONE would use it because item pooling is horribly imbalanced.


Sounds like the normal 10 year old replay when S2/Icefrog intruduce a new unbalanced hero, just gank him repeatedly and he will be bad.
If thats the case there is no problem with a pooled hero too, just kill him.

We both know that logic is flawed and that you are just trying to be an ass.

Hunter been hosting alot of great tournies for a long time and knows what he is doing, obviously you dont. I ****ing lol'ed.
What the hell are you even trying to argue about?

You're arguing that backdooring is too hard/impossible to counter and shouldn't be allowed?

Show me a competitive hon game where backdooring is used and couldn't be countered. Hint: There isn't one.

You took something I didn't say applied it to another scenario no one was talking about then applied that scenario to argue against something that we're both in agreement on (that pooling is and should be illegal).

You should be a ****ing lawyer you'd leave the jury so confused no one would even know who was on trial.

If you want to reply to this post try to make your reply coherent clearly state what I've said that you disagree with and why.

Thanks.

[zhatan]

No I said backdooring is rarely used even when allowed because most situations it isn't a good idea and in the situations where it is a good idea it isn't "abuse" it's ****ing strategy. Saying backdooring is abuse is like saying killing kongor is abuse because just like backdooring to kill kongor you already have to have an advantage.

I never said pooling isn't used much I said if it were allowed EVERYONE would use it because item pooling is horribly imbalanced.


What the hell are you even trying to argue about?

You're arguing that backdooring is too hard/impossible to counter and shouldn't be allowed?

Show me a competitive hon game where backdooring is used and couldn't be countered. Hint: There isn't one.

You took something I didn't say applied it to another scenario no one was talking about then applied that scenario to argue against something that we're both in agreement on (that pooling is and should be illegal).

You should be a ****ing lawyer you'd leave the jury so confused no one would even know who was on trial.

If you want to reply to this post try to make your reply coherent clearly state what I've said that you disagree with and why.

Thanks.

I took what you said, counter to BD is not to die and applied it to the topic at hand that you argue for, kill the pooled hero and you have no problem. In both cases it isnt that simple and you are plainly just wrong.

You want me to show you a game in competative HoN where backdooring been used and couldnt be countered? You throw that out like BD was actually allowd in the tournaments, while it is forbidden in all except 1. So no, there isnt a game where it has been used decisivly for just that reason. There was a few in DOTA back in the days though, before pretty much every mayor league/tournament there banned it.

[Cheese]

Backdooring is allowed in Asian DotA. It skews the picks slightly late-gamier (that's a real word I just made up) with Phantom Lancers and whatnot, but it's more as a defense against the possibility. It is rare to catch a recorded instance of the act in a real match, and those guys are VERY used to playing games where backdooring is on the table.

On topic, pooling isn't philosophically dissimilar to the common strategy of the babysitter + ward buyer. Even if you have a great game with that type of hero, you end up with boots + stat items. Now, you may not have "given" anyone money or items, but...come on. The farm distribution is still being intentionally imbalanced. Does it make the game more interesting? Hard to say. Heroes like Demented and Spectre wouldn't be viable if teams couldn't purposefully distribute farm to a certain extent, so it opens up the hero pool. It also creates different "roles" on a team, which is something that dissipates when the optimal strat is to split farm 5 ways. That's cool to me, too.



The main (or at least best) argument against pooling is that it is currently disallowed in all forms, and allowing it would upset the status quo. I guess the current balance is in a decent spot, or at least it feels like it...so don't fix something that isn't broken?

[Jager]

Icefrog didn't make buildings invulnerable without creeps though did he? He obviously wants backdooring left as a possible tactic of the game, as does S2.

[Euphoria]

Glad everyone is talking about pooling + backdooring, but please tell me the difference between 2 heroes bottle sharing in 1 lane versus 2 heroes bottle sharing across 2 lanes with a crow? This was brought up earlier and never addressed and it seems the only answer so far is "bury our heads in the sand".

[Fenald]

I took what you said, counter to BD is not to die and applied it to the topic at hand that you argue for, kill the pooled hero and you have no problem. In both cases it isnt that simple and you are plainly just wrong.

You want me to show you a game in competative HoN where backdooring been used and couldnt be countered? You throw that out like BD was actually allowd in the tournaments, while it is forbidden in all except 1. So no, there isnt a game where it has been used decisivly for just that reason. There was a few in DOTA back in the days though, before pretty much every mayor league/tournament there banned it.
So we agree then? You can't read.

I never said kill a pooled hero and you have no problem every single post I've made has been about how pooling has no counter. Are you completely retarded?

gamereplays hosts a tournament EVERY WEEK where there is no backdooring rule honleague has hosted like what 2 tournaments? The MAJORITY of hon tournaments haven't had backdooring rules.

Get a clue kid.


It is rare to catch a recorded instance of the act in a real match, and those guys are VERY used to playing games where backdooring is on the table.

It's very hard to catch viable strategy in the act because people who haven't been playing with stupid pointless rules that prevent it know how to counter it.

Thats what I just read.

[HunteR_]

HoN League Rules :: FYI

Game Rules

-Be a good sportsman and have fun playing competitively.

-Backdooring outer towers is allowed. (Cannot attack tower/structures in base without creep support)

-Entering the oppositions base without a creep wave is NOT allowed

-Blocking creeps in the base with Behemoth's Fissure is not allowed

-Item drop is not enabled

-Not glitching out of the map

-No ledge glitching Kongor (like abusing slither wards to kill Kongor or pulling him to tower)

-Abuse of any bug, or glitch is considered illegal.

-No pooling items (Including bottle) : You are allowed to share bottle in lane, you cannot give it to another hero with the intention for use for a long period of time.

Earn your Stats
League Games are meant to be Played
No FF allowed before 25 mins of Gameplay, always give your best.


Item Limits:

-Max 2 Astrolabe per team
-Max 2 Puzzle Box per team
-Max 2 Ring of Sorcery
-No Abuse of Flying Courier with Bound Eye, or Runes.

(The concede rule is only for inhouses, not tournaments and ladders)

[Euphoria]

The bottle ban seems utterly random and thrown in there. There is no pooling items based on the game engine, why that is even listed as a rule anymore in leagues is beyond me.

If you want to get technical buying wards/dust/eyes and holding them for an extended time seems to be pooling in the same vein. Using a crow to keep your ally refreshed with bottle in lane or out of lane, what is the difference?

There is no justification to not allowing it other than you don't want it. It cripples one hero to the benefit of another. Support heroes do this without even sharing items by avoiding last hits etc. Is a 600 gold item this threatening to the game that somehow everyone will abuse bottle the instant they can?

[zhatan]

So we agree then? You can't read.

I never said kill a pooled hero and you have no problem every single post I've made has been about how pooling has no counter. Are you completely retarded?

gamereplays hosts a tournament EVERY WEEK where there is no backdooring rule honleague has hosted like what 2 tournaments? The MAJORITY of hon tournaments haven't had backdooring rules.

Get a clue kid.



It's very hard to catch viable strategy in the act because people who haven't been playing with stupid pointless rules that prevent it know how to counter it.

Thats what I just read.

Well, at least there is one that cant read understand logic, and it isnt me. Keep on thinking the solution to BD is not dying, while thats actually the solution to every situation in the game, kill the others-dont die.

Anyway, Hunters tourney rules are well worked out and though over, balanced over years in dota. Thats only my opinion tho, each to his own.

[Pyrate]

HoN League Rules :: FYI

Game Rules

-Be a good sportsman and have fun playing competitively.

-Backdooring outer towers is allowed. (Cannot attack tower/structures in base without creep support)

-Entering the oppositions base without a creep wave is NOT allowed

-Blocking creeps in the base with Behemoth's Fissure is not allowed

-Item drop is not enabled

-Not glitching out of the map

-No ledge glitching Kongor (like abusing slither wards to kill Kongor or pulling him to tower)

-Abuse of any bug, or glitch is considered illegal.

-No pooling items (Including bottle) : You are allowed to share bottle in lane, you cannot give it to another hero with the intention for use for a long period of time.

Earn your Stats
League Games are meant to be Played
No FF allowed before 25 mins of Gameplay, always give your best.


Item Limits:

-Max 2 Astrolabe per team
-Max 2 Puzzle Box per team
-Max 2 Ring of Sorcery
-No Abuse of Flying Courier with Bound Eye, or Runes.

(The concede rule is only for inhouses, not tournaments and ladders)

lol you changed that pretty quick

Some of your rules are outdated though, you can only use 2 Astros anyway because any after that and the protection overlaps with the cds.

[Pyrate]

you really cant pool now though, items that S2 want you to share, you can, items they dont want to be shared, you cant.

Why create a rule when the mechanics are already in place.

[ZeLinK]

There is no pooling items based on the game engine, why that is even listed as a rule anymore in leagues is beyond me. You can pool items in HoN... It's really, really easy.



I don't think there are as many 'counters' to backdooring as you say there are, especially with the long cooldown on glyphs and obs wards; but I can't really say so either since I haven't seen enough teams pick combos that take backdooring into account, in games that aren't completely one-sided.

As for pooling, "the only way to counter pooling is pooling"... I disagree again, but I can't really argue against you because it's all theory - you know, since it hasn't been allowed in forever. Counter-pooling would be a counter, and if pooling were allowed it would be something you'd have to take into account. However, I think you're being overly dramatic because the last time you saw pooling in competitive games was when strategies were 1-dimensional and there wasn't as much focus on skirmishes. Plus, the concept of banning particular heroes in drafts didn't exist (and I'm pretty sure -lm or normal mode was the standard mode when pooling was removed anyway, so drafts didn't really exist either)...

[Euphoria]

Zelink care to explain how you can pool items, since they are all locked to the hero ?

[Octy]

instead of bottle. just buy red pot (hp) or blue pot ( mana) and use it on your carry hero when he's low. ( tempest starting items courier 6 clarities 1 red pot - red pot unused use it to carry at your lane) :O

[ZeLinK]

Teams don't commonly backdoor because they're not used to it and sometimes the opportunity doesn't present itself... I had no idea that your idea of countering backdooring was "kill the backdooring hero then push" - I don't know if you're joking or you actually think that's a counter or what?

As for pooling, I have no doubt people would pool if it was allowed, in the same way that people would buy gem on crow if it was allowed, or people would stack meks or buy more than one hexi f it was possible. Of course, if any of those were available they'd be used... The fact they were used may be the reason they're banned. I'm not arguing whether or not people would pool, I'm arguing that it's not as bad as you're making it out to be, even if teams focused on pooling X hero.

One-dimensional play I was referring to wasn't "pool the lategame hero" - back then no team really focused on hard ganking/skirmish strategies or complete lane domination strategies, all the combos were the same with no variety, and there wasn't any drafting, especially drafting with bans. Now, even if pooling X hero/es did become the best strategy, you could always remove that or those heroes. But, as I said, I don't think it would be as bad as you think it would be.

[Fenald]

Teams don't commonly backdoor because they're not used to it and sometimes the opportunity doesn't present itself... I had no idea that your idea of countering backdooring was "kill the backdooring hero then push" - I don't know if you're joking or you actually think that's a counter or what?

As for pooling, I have no doubt people would pool if it was allowed, in the same way that people would buy gem on crow if it was allowed, or people would stack meks or buy more than one hexi f it was possible. Of course, if any of those were available they'd be used... The fact they were used may be the reason they're banned. I'm not arguing whether or not people would pool, I'm arguing that it's not as bad as you're making it out to be, even if teams focused on pooling X hero.

One-dimensional play I was referring to wasn't "pool the lategame hero" - back then no team really focused on hard ganking/skirmish strategies or complete lane domination strategies, all the combos were the same with no variety, and there wasn't any drafting, especially drafting with bans. Now, even if pooling X hero/es did become the best strategy, you could always remove that or those heroes. But, as I said, I don't think it would be as bad as you think it would be.

Teams don't backdoor because backdooring isn't a ****ing good strategy 95% of the time.

I'm not joking that is a counter.

I didn't say "people" will pool I said EVERYONE will pool.

When pooling exists "hard ganking/skirmish strategies" become less effective to pointless.

If you're ganking the carry over and over while his team farms his items you might as well be ganking nymphora over and over while the carry farms items.

More importantly than this you seem to be under some kind of delusion that pooling requires a specific team build to do.

So lets say we have 2 standard teams with some gankers a carry hero etc etc. Everyones playing ganking eachother la de da.

For this scenario each team has an offensive caster and a carry hero. Both carry heroes are going for bkb.

Team 1s caster has boots some bracers etc hes doing alright hes like cool I've got 1300 gold I'll go grab a glowstone so I can cast more spells and have more health!!!!

Team 2s caster has boots some bracers etc hes doing alright hes like cool I've got 1300 gold I'll go grab A BKB RECIPE AND GIVE IT TO MY CARRY HERO.

Team fight happens!

Team 2s caster dies because he had 200 less health :( however team 2s carry was bkb'd team 1s carry was immediately nuked down team 2s carry genocides team 1.

gg outplayed.

I legitimately don't even know why I'm trying to argue with an em player about competitive play specifically about something so hilariously obvious as the imbalance of item pooling.

[Fenald]

Well, at least there is one that cant read understand logic, and it isnt me. Keep on thinking the solution to BD is not dying, while thats actually the solution to every situation in the game, kill the others-dont die.

Anyway, Hunters tourney rules are well worked out and though over, balanced over years in dota. Thats only my opinion tho, each to his own.
Don't try to back out now kid.


took what you said, counter to BD is not to die and applied it to the topic at hand that you argue for, kill the pooled hero and you have no problem.

HUH? PLEASE QUOTE ME SAYING THE COUNTER TO POOLING IS TO KILL THE POOLED HERO?

Back to my original statement, you can't read.

Yes Zhatan when you die bad things happen thats how this game works.


You can pool items in HoN... It's really, really easy.



I don't think there are as many 'counters' to backdooring as you say there are, especially with the long cooldown on glyphs and obs wards; but I can't really say so either since I haven't seen enough teams pick combos that take backdooring into account, in games that aren't completely one-sided.

The counter isn't to be there and force him to leave it's to kill him then push his team 4v5 with the carry dead.

Teams don't commonly backdoor because backdooring is a risk that if it goes badly can cost you the game.


As for pooling, "the only way to counter pooling is pooling"... I disagree again, but I can't really argue against you because it's all theory - you know, since it hasn't been allowed in forever. Counter-pooling would be a counter, and if pooling were allowed it would be something you'd have to take into account. However, I think you're being overly dramatic because the last time you saw pooling in competitive games was when strategies were 1-dimensional and there wasn't as much focus on skirmishes. Plus, the concept of banning particular heroes in drafts didn't exist (and I'm pretty sure -lm or normal mode was the standard mode when pooling was removed anyway, so drafts didn't really exist either)...

Strategies were 1 dimensional because pooling was allowed. That 1 dimension was pool the carry or lose to the other team whos pooling their carry.

You know how every single competent player in the game lets carries farm over support heroes/casters? Pooling is the same thing x10. Allowing pooling removes what keeps this semi balanced which is that a carry can't be everywhere at once so he can't farm everything at once even if his team is trying to let him.

How can you even attempt to argue that every team wouldn't pool when every team is already doing as close to pooling as they possibly can (feeding the carry last hits)?

[Hurfdurf]

Fenald ready to throwdown ITT.

[i_am_da_pwn]

-Item drop is not enabledYou can't drop items on the ground? Why is that?

[HunteR_]

It's a game mode, that when you die, you randomly lose an item in a random slot (if you have no item in that slot you lose nothing.

Anyways, that's for league rules, tournaments obviously aren't in Item Drop mode anyways.

And yes, they've fixed astrolabe. This is beta, and they've done a great job thus far with the game to reduce abuse-able problems.

Fenald, although some of your points are valid, the bottom line is, if you go into a base, with no creep support and start attacking buildings, you're going to be disqualified in HoN League. I'm not arguing with you on the "strategic possibilities and counters" of backdooring, in our league it's considered unsportsmanlike conduct. Think of it as "Offsides" in Soccer. >> Reference here << (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offside_law_%28football%29)

[evotech]

one could give bottle, and then 4 others give one trinket each

???

profit!

[Extreme_Cake]

It's a game mode, that when you die, you randomly lose an item in a random slot (if you have no item in that slot you lose nothing.

Anyways, that's for league rules, tournaments obviously aren't in Item Drop mode anyways.

And yes, they've fixed astrolabe. This is beta, and they've done a great job thus far with the game to reduce abuse-able problems.

Fenald, although some of your points are valid, the bottom line is, if you go into a base, with no creep support and start attacking buildings, you're going to be disqualified in HoN League. I'm not arguing with you on the "strategic possibilities and counters" of backdooring, in our league it's considered unsportsmanlike conduct. Think of it as "Offsides" in Soccer. >> Reference here << (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offside_law_%28football%29)
Offsides in football are a necessity, since the entire game dynamic gets ****ed if you don't play them. On the other hand, backdooring makes little difference to the game beyond punishing those who fail at having a TP.

[Darkstrand]

Offsides in football are a necessity, since the entire game dynamic gets ****ed if you don't play them. On the other hand, backdooring makes little difference to the game beyond punishing those who fail at having a TP.

It's the same thing lol

Getting a goal on offsides makes little difference to the game beyond punishing those who fail at defending.

Great analogy Hunter.

[Vulpes]

Why did we go from "Is giving bottle to your carry permanently bad" to "What if I can share ALL items"?
These are completly different matters. Pooling all Items would be ridiculous, thats for sure;
But I don't see anything bad in buying a bottle for someone - after all, you sacrifice side lanes for mid.

E: And if soccer had no offsides, the game would be all about 2 strikers sitting in enemy penalty box and waiting for long balls.
Since defenders couldnt allow this, they would be surrounding these two strikers; ridiculing every tactic. Backdoors aren't close to being crucial like this..

[Chamie]

Even if it was allowed it would be bad cuz the mid hero would get bottle way too late.

[Jimb0v]

Why did we go from "Is giving bottle to your carry permanently bad" to "What if I can share ALL items"?
These are completly different matters. Pooling all Items would be ridiculous, thats for sure;
But I don't see anything bad in buying a bottle for someone - after all, you sacrifice side lanes for mid.


I completely agree. When did this leap happen? Its not possible to share a BKB or the components for a BKB, right?

These house rules are bad for the game. They purposely contradict the developers intentions.

The developers decided to allow backdooring, evidenced by the armor ability on the towers.
The developers decided to allow item sharing, evidenced by the fact that some items are deactivated and uncombinable when shared.

[HunteR_]

No need to get so worked up, you won't have to worry about the HoN League rules in your pub games.

You probably never heard of the reason why backdooring and item pooling was banned in every high level competitive league and tournament for DotA. Some years ago, MYM was facing a team which will remain nameless in the finals.

MYM outplayed the other team the entire match, won every team fight, won every lane, and upon pushing mid to finish the game, the other team sent Furion (teleports across map like nypmhora except does decent DPS) to take out base towers while they push. This resulted in MYM tping back to base over and over to prevent the furion from destroying their base. Eventually, MYM pushes again, they have 2 rax down in middle against the opposing team. They lost their base tower to the furion in the meantime.

THe rest was a complete sad mess, the team with Furion also had a Stealth assassin who ran up into their base (which by the way was covered by a sentry ward incase the SA decided to backdoor).

What happens next goes down in backdoor and item share history.

The team with furion and SA go to Roshan while MYM is pushing, one of the support heroes sells all of his items and gets a rapier, in which he purposely dies to roshan, the SA takes the rapier, then takes the token of life/aegis from roshan, MYM knowing what's going to happen next all have Teleport scrolls ready. Low and behold the Stealth Assassin starts crushing a rax as Furion teleports in and they finish the raxes in a few swings.

The MYM team Chain TP's back to their base (giving the buildings bonus armor as they TP), and the SA runs away. MYM Gathers up again and starts to push buying a new Set of TP's, but the other team washes, rinses and repeats. There was absolutely nothing the other team could do due to the invisible hero and the hero that can teleport into the base.

Now let me remind you, that teleport scrolls were even better back then because instead of a glyph every 5 minutes, you could make buildings invulnerable by chain TP'ing to them which you cannot do now.

Currently in DotA and in HoN, if you tp back to a building, it dies, but you still TP if it dies.

Now, you can only activate your structure invincibility for a few short seconds every 5 minutes.

A team can backdoor multiple times in that timeframe.

I've been a DotA tourney/League owner/operator for over 4 years now, I've seen every abuse someone can think of, and new ones thanks to HoN being in beta.

Saying the game mechanics are made for a reason and should be exploited to the fullest is a horrible argument and I would love to see you counter the scenario above with you "LOL NUBS, CARRY TP's"

They did, they counter warded, they did everything they could, they had an amazing team, and even an additional bonus from TP's on buildings not present now.

They weren't able to win the game due to backdooring. The team ended up winning due to it not being in the rules, and ever since then, DotA was a laughing stock in the e-sports community.

I'm glad to be helping s2 Games move on the right track for e-Sport play and functionality. I'm aslo happy a lot of the DotA e-Sport community is involved. S2 Games has a huge advantage with the title, which is the experience and knowledge acquired by the DotA community at large.

[garblax]

Why didn't MYM just base kill the opposing team?

[Jimb0v]

No need to get so worked up, you won't have to worry about the HoN League rules in your pub games.

You probably never heard of the reason why backdooring and item pooling was banned in every high level competitive league and tournament for DotA. Some years ago, MYM was facing a team which will remain nameless in the finals.

MYM outplayed the other team the entire match, won every team fight, won every lane, and upon pushing mid to finish the game, the other team sent Furion (teleports across map like nypmhora except does decent DPS) to take out base towers while they push. This resulted in MYM tping back to base over and over to prevent the furion from destroying their base. Eventually, MYM pushes again, they have 2 rax down in middle against the opposing team. They lost their base tower to the furion in the meantime.

THe rest was a complete sad mess, the team with Furion also had a Stealth assassin who ran up into their base (which by the way was covered by a sentry ward incase the SA decided to backdoor).

What happens next goes down in backdoor and item share history.

The team with furion and SA go to Roshan while MYM is pushing, one of the support heroes sells all of his items and gets a rapier, in which he purposely dies to roshan, the SA takes the rapier, then takes the token of life/aegis from roshan, MYM knowing what's going to happen next all have Teleport scrolls ready. Low and behold the Stealth Assassin starts crushing a rax as Furion teleports in and they finish the raxes in a few swings.

The MYM team Chain TP's back to their base (giving the buildings bonus armor as they TP), and the SA runs away. MYM Gathers up again and starts to push buying a new Set of TP's, but the other team washes, rinses and repeats. There was absolutely nothing the other team could do due to the invisible hero and the hero that can teleport into the base.

Now let me remind you, that teleport scrolls were even better back then because instead of a glyph every 5 minutes, you could make buildings invulnerable by chain TP'ing to them which you cannot do now.

Currently in DotA and in HoN, if you tp back to a building, it dies, but you still TP if it dies.

Now, you can only activate your structure invincibility for a few short seconds every 5 minutes.

A team can backdoor multiple times in that timeframe.

I've been a DotA tourney/League owner/operator for over 4 years now, I've seen every abuse someone can think of, and new ones thanks to HoN being in beta.

Saying the game mechanics are made for a reason and should be exploited to the fullest is a horrible argument and I would love to see you counter the scenario above with you "LOL NUBS, CARRY TP's"

They did, they counter warded, they did everything they could, they had an amazing team, and even an additional bonus from TP's on buildings not present now.

They weren't able to win the game due to backdooring. The team ended up winning due to it not being in the rules, and ever since then, DotA was a laughing stock in the e-sports community.

I'm glad to be helping s2 Games move on the right track for e-Sport play and functionality. I'm aslo happy a lot of the DotA e-Sport community is involved. S2 Games has a huge advantage with the title, which is the experience and knowledge acquired by the DotA community at large.

It is a good story and a good piece of history to have on these boards.

You and I have a fundamental disagreement about what to do about it.
If one of your goals really is to promote HoN as an e-sport, I cannot understand why you would want to create seperate rules that normal players are not held to. If anything I would think you would be the biggest proponent of getting the underlying rules changed. You need a consistent brand.

Please understand, I am saying this without judging the veracity of your actual point. I'm assuming everything you said is 100% true. It just does not make sense to bifurcate rules, even where your rule is strictly superior. The better plan is to leave the system and show S2 how horribly rotten a game is with that ruleset. Then S2 will change the underlying rules to reflect the rules you desire. The biggest problem I see is that a vast majority of the time noone backdoors in pubs and the times where someone does, it often times fails. I have only witnessed a handfull of games where someone backdoored and it seemed difficult to stop.

Now, if I were to rebutt your story, I think there are a number of chinks in the armor.
1. Furion is not in HoN
2. No HoN hero can teleport to the inside of the base in HoN without creeps present.
3. Why exactly is it wrong that the backdoor technique won that game? The technique is worthless if it is so underpowered that it never works.
4. Perhaps *I* could not have changed the fate in that game. But I am guessing that if a well prepared team could develop ways to beat it. Now, if the whole metagame shifts and that strategy is so dominating then perhaps it could be declared unhealthy for the game and changed. But from your story it sounds like this ban on backdooring
was a result of a single game where the perceived better team lost.

By the way, my understanding of the ban on backdooring was that it originated from when furion could tp into the trees where he could not be reached, and kill towers from an invunerable location. Your story seems to contradict that.

As for the rapier/doombringer. I honestly don't know how doombringer is programmed right now. If its passable to teammates now, I think it is silly to say that a strategy revolving around doom-bringer is overwpowered. Farming that big of a chunk of gold deserves a reward. Further, if something goes wrong and they are able to chain disable/kill that hero it all but seals their fate because its such a huge swing in gold.

[Darkstrand]

As for the rapier/doombringer. I honestly don't know how doombringer is programmed right now. If its passable to teammates now, I think it is silly to say that a strategy revolving around doom-bringer is overwpowered. Farming that big of a chunk of gold deserves a reward. Further, if something goes wrong and they are able to chain disable/kill that hero it all but seals their fate because its such a huge swing in gold.

I do. You can have one player farm a Doombringer and suicide to Kongor and let an ally pick it up, just as Hunter described the incident during that MYM match. My buddy Scott made me a couple Doombringers and died to Kong to give em to me, since he's such a nice guy.

[tonybus]

Heres what it comes down to:

It could be said that history shapes the present. The Dota pros who have been around for years have learned the game without backdooring as a viable option. If you were to backdoor in even a "professional grade" inhouse, you would be crucified, let alone a tourny. This is why the newer the player, the more likely they are to support backdooring as a viable strategy. I will agree that backdooring is often a great strategy, however, it changes the game a lot. Yes, Jimb0v, you raised some good questions about hunter's furion story, but it still stands that the main problem with backdooring is that suddenly, a torturer on a losing team backdooring a 3rd tier tower or rax while the other team pushes becomes the center of the game. The winning team must now focus all their efforts on killing the backdoorer as fast as they possibly can, and each time the backdoorer comes, he will either insta-die by 4 heros focusing him, and his losing team will be farming all the while OR he will do significant damage while the enemy team reacts with tps etc.

In short, it turns the game into something other than what the veteran players have been playing for the past years. It might just be me, but there is something unsettling about being on the winning team and pushing and seeing a random enemy hero attacking your rax or throne... Not to mention it drags the game on, and like i said before, puts the possibility of the team with the best backdoorer winning instead of the best team.

IMO...

[phate]

Hunter makes a good point. Although HoN doesnt currently have the same hero pool as dota yet there still exist team builds that would be heavy backdoor teams that could upset the balance of the game. Although that MYM match seemed to be more of an item sharing + backdoor combo to win the game basically using every dirty little trick to win.

This would have changed the way Dota was played and it would have been for the worse. Sure teams would adapt to this style of play, however, the level of game being played would have suffered and it would have actually been to the detriment of the community. Skilled team play would have been less prevalent and changes to early, mid, and late game would over all be changed for the worse as well.

Hero combinations and new strategies will always be changing which will change the meta-game, but its usually for the advancement and improvement of the game. This change, however, would have set the game back. If you cant see that you probably don't really understand the game as well as you think.

[HunteR_]

Not only do I disagree with you on this jimb0v, but I will prove that you are wrong about HoN not having such an exploitable mechanism.

A) Scout is still in the game, and does MASSIVE amounts of damage in a short period of time with 5 gauranteed hits in less than a second late game.

B) Nyphora can not only teleport herself, but 2 other team mates to backdoor an enemy base. That takes a crap all over Furion. ( You can TP right outside of base and walk in, same difference, it's a few steps from attack range.)

They of course can all TP away as soon as they destroy the rax/base tower, usually before the other team has a chance to realize it.

Lastly, back to the "no furion in HoN".... Nyphora with her ultimate boosted has no cooldown. She can constantly tp herself and team mates back and forth from their fountain, and into their base.

I rest my case.

TonyBus said it the best when we shape the future from the past. We can also agree that those who don't learn from the fast, share the same fate in the future.

[FiNGERS]

MYM outplayed the other team the entire match, won every team fight, won every lane, and upon pushing mid to finish the game, the other team sent Furion (teleports across map like nypmhora except does decent DPS) to take out base towers while they push. This resulted in MYM tping back to base over and over to prevent the furion from destroying their base. Eventually, MYM pushes again, they have 2 rax down in middle against the opposing team. They lost their base tower to the furion in the meantime.

There was absolutely nothing the other team could do due to the invisible hero and the hero that can teleport into the base.

I've been a DotA tourney/League owner/operator for over 4 years now, I've seen every abuse someone can think of, and new ones thanks to HoN being in beta.

They weren't able to win the game due to backdooring. The team ended up winning due to it not being in the rules, and ever since then, DotA was a laughing stock in the e-sports community.


Clearly MYM got outplayed. Clearly they were the better team, CLEARLY. Banning backdooring just closes a door on another viable strategy that is not comparable to something as gamebreaking as item pooling. No it may not make the games fun to play/watch some of the time, but it CAN drag the game out, which would be the only problem I have with backdooring.

[Isin]

And then get another hero to donate some tangoes/mana potions to the hero that bought the bottle. Not a bad strategy.

[Jimb0v]

Leaving every thing else aside I don't understand why you don't convince s2 to change the rules

[HunteR_]

I was told they were, i'm sure it's not the highest priority.

Fingers... Saying that MYM was outplayed is just a troll. They won every lane, every team fight, and could easily win when pushing to end.

They couldn't push to end because the other team "abused" item pooling and backdooring. Plain and simple.

I know it's fun to chime in with a random comment, but the only ones out of the THOUSANDS that saw the game and thought MYM wasn't outplayed was the team who used the abuse to win.

If MYM pushed, the rapier SA and furion could easily destroy the base faster than MYM Could since they already had towers and rax down. MYM was forced to tp back to stop them from throning. It's exactly why it's banned from soccer, it's supposed to be a team game, not a who can pick an invisible hero and a hero that can TP into a base, while rhasta farms ancients and sells his items to buy a rapier for the team's carry to "magically" get when the rhasta coincidentally dies to roshan.

Come on, I encourage arguments and logic. Not trolling

[tonybus]

Fingers, you probably shouldnt use the word clearly so often, especially when things arent clear. If by clear you mean the vast majorities view on the issue, then the opposite of your statement is true. The vast majority of viewers, such as myself, felt that MYM didnt get outplayed, but were cheated out of a win instead...

[Fenald]

No need to get so worked up, you won't have to worry about the HoN League rules in your pub games.

You probably never heard of the reason why backdooring and item pooling was banned in every high level competitive league and tournament for DotA. Some years ago, MYM was facing a team which will remain nameless in the finals.

MYM outplayed the other team the entire match, won every team fight, won every lane, and upon pushing mid to finish the game, the other team sent Furion (teleports across map like nypmhora except does decent DPS) to take out base towers while they push. This resulted in MYM tping back to base over and over to prevent the furion from destroying their base. Eventually, MYM pushes again, they have 2 rax down in middle against the opposing team. They lost their base tower to the furion in the meantime.

THe rest was a complete sad mess, the team with Furion also had a Stealth assassin who ran up into their base (which by the way was covered by a sentry ward incase the SA decided to backdoor).

What happens next goes down in backdoor and item share history.

The team with furion and SA go to Roshan while MYM is pushing, one of the support heroes sells all of his items and gets a rapier, in which he purposely dies to roshan, the SA takes the rapier, then takes the token of life/aegis from roshan, MYM knowing what's going to happen next all have Teleport scrolls ready. Low and behold the Stealth Assassin starts crushing a rax as Furion teleports in and they finish the raxes in a few swings.

The MYM team Chain TP's back to their base (giving the buildings bonus armor as they TP), and the SA runs away. MYM Gathers up again and starts to push buying a new Set of TP's, but the other team washes, rinses and repeats. There was absolutely nothing the other team could do due to the invisible hero and the hero that can teleport into the base.

Now let me remind you, that teleport scrolls were even better back then because instead of a glyph every 5 minutes, you could make buildings invulnerable by chain TP'ing to them which you cannot do now.

Currently in DotA and in HoN, if you tp back to a building, it dies, but you still TP if it dies.

Now, you can only activate your structure invincibility for a few short seconds every 5 minutes.

A team can backdoor multiple times in that timeframe.

I've been a DotA tourney/League owner/operator for over 4 years now, I've seen every abuse someone can think of, and new ones thanks to HoN being in beta.

Saying the game mechanics are made for a reason and should be exploited to the fullest is a horrible argument and I would love to see you counter the scenario above with you "LOL NUBS, CARRY TP's"

They did, they counter warded, they did everything they could, they had an amazing team, and even an additional bonus from TP's on buildings not present now.

They weren't able to win the game due to backdooring. The team ended up winning due to it not being in the rules, and ever since then, DotA was a laughing stock in the e-sports community.

I'm glad to be helping s2 Games move on the right track for e-Sport play and functionality. I'm aslo happy a lot of the DotA e-Sport community is involved. S2 Games has a huge advantage with the title, which is the experience and knowledge acquired by the DotA community at large.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your rules I don't care what silly rules you or anyone else puts in any tournaments.


Furion and nymphora can and probably should be exceptions.

That being said MYM may have "outplayed" your mystery team but they certainly didn't outstrategize them.

This is no different than picking an early game team dominating early dominating every team fight dominating every lane and then losing late game because you didn't factor in the game going that long.

If they wanted to stop SA from getting away during TPs they should have hung someone back to cut him off and disable him during the TPs.

Also a support hero who had 16k in items? I'm curious how dominated they were getting if a support hero could afford a rapier by selling all his items.

Also dust didn't exist then.

Also why was the entire team tping back to base when furion was backdooring it alone? 1 aoe hero hi?

Also for a team thats dominating the game and every lane and every team fight why is the other team the one killing roshan?

Feel free to explain the flaws in anything I've said.

[tonybus]

I'm not trying to convince you to change your rules I don't care what silly rules you or anyone else puts in any tournaments.


If you dont care about the rules that hunter puts in his tourny, why are you debating them so feverishly?

This whole discussion on backdooring, as far as I have read, has to do with backdooring in tournies and leagues. Yes, its badass to say you don't care about the "silly rules" that anyone makes in their tournies, but if thats truly the case, then why are you in the conversation?

[Fenald]

If you dont care about the rules that hunter puts in his tourny, why are you debating them so feverishly?

This whole discussion on backdooring, as far as I have read, has to do with backdooring in tournies and leagues. Yes, its badass to say you don't care about the "silly rules" that anyone makes in their tournies, but if thats truly the case, then why are you in the conversation?
Why not be in the conversation?

Obviously I'm for backdooring. I can't just let hunter sit here saying things that make no sense without arguing against them. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that hunter won't change his backdooring rules and I'll still play honleague tournaments and obviously I won't backdoor in them.

[tonybus]

you shouldnt be in the conversation because you dont care. however its clear that you do in fact care, A LOT. im pointing this out because perhaps its time that hunter stops arguing with someone whose mind may be clouded by psychological problems. the issue being that you feel the need to establish to the community that you have the "dont care" attitude, yet spend the remainder of your time proving exactly how much you care (apparently a good amount)...

im just a humble observer, not a psychoiatrist

[Fenald]

you shouldnt be in the conversation because you dont care. however its clear that you do in fact care, A LOT. im pointing this out because perhaps its time that hunter stops arguing with someone whose mind may be clouded by psychological problems. the issue being that you feel the need to establish to the community that you have the "dont care" attitude, yet spend the remainder of your time proving exactly how much you care (apparently a good amount)...

im just a humble observer, not a psychoiatrist
I care about backdoorings vs not backdooring I don't care specifically if hunter bans it.

I'm arguing so people see an argument both for and against backdooring.

I can argue about a subject without caring what another person does related to the subject.

Are you genuinely stupid or just looking for someone to argue with over something trivial?

Go humbly observe a classroom.

[Pupp3tMast3r]

I'm not trying to convince you to change your rules I don't care what silly rules you or anyone else puts in any tournaments.


Furion and nymphora can and probably should be exceptions.

That being said MYM may have "outplayed" your mystery team but they certainly didn't outstrategize them.

This is no different than picking an early game team dominating early dominating every team fight dominating every lane and then losing late game because you didn't factor in the game going that long.

If they wanted to stop SA from getting away during TPs they should have hung someone back to cut him off and disable him during the TPs.

Also a support hero who had 16k in items? I'm curious how dominated they were getting if a support hero could afford a rapier by selling all his items.

Also dust didn't exist then.

Also why was the entire team tping back to base when furion was backdooring it alone? 1 aoe hero hi?

Also for a team thats dominating the game and every lane and every team fight why is the other team the one killing roshan?

Feel free to explain the flaws in anything I've said.

Actually these are good points. For such a domination team, someone in the other team farming a rapier, and getting mid rax down -- doesn't add up.

[Fenald]

oh nice, name calling! I understand your points now! Oh and then using a word i said and attaching a clever quip to it! DONE AND DONE. time to ignore the dog. bark bark bark.
I didn't call you anything I asked if you were stupid.

I guess your response answers my question nicely.

[krucifix]

It's the same thing lol

Getting a goal on offsides makes little difference to the game beyond punishing those who fail at defending.

Great analogy Hunter.

Wow you really don't know soccer, do you?

You do realise standing Offside stretches the defending team's defenders far more than humanly possible, since passing a ball is much easier than running...

If the defenders could teleport directly to the goals, it'd be a different story though...

sigh.

(hint: The soccer analogy was retarded)

[HunteR_]

The analogy is not retarded at all. You cannot out TP a 30 second nyphora ult cooldown. The CD on a TP is 60 seconds, she can teleport a team in and out before you can TP again.

And the support hero in question was rhasta, who pulled ancient creep all game, was the only hero doing well on their team to be honest. Had Guinsoo, Scepter, boots of travel, throw your wards and kill a ton of ancients is easy.

And you're not arguing to show both sides. You obviously pointed out a vendetta by saying " I can't just let hunter sit here saying things that make no sense"

Pretty sure it made sense, not to mention i said said they had sentry wards, and back then sentry wards had full vision, and TP scrolls were stronger.

You ask why the whole team TP'd back for the SA and Furion backdooring? BEcause they didn't want 1 hero going back and getting destroyed and them taking the rest of the base, nor could the team of 4 (if one goes back) destroy the base before the furion and SA could.

You've honestly never been in a situation in which your team is winning, and has momentum... Then you get gayed by a backdooring invis hero?

I find it hard to believe unless you didn't play dota and don't have 5 years of dota/hon experience like the old school dota crew.

All of Competitive DotA has run fine with backdooring rules, and pooling rules.

AS a matter of fact, I held a meeting online with greats from teams all around the world including American teams, European teams, and Asian teams (fnatic, SK.Gaming, Mouz.Gaming, MYM, and compLexity to name a few).

And since Fenald you've already acknowledged my nymphora exception, then you must logically determine that abuse is possible. When abuse is possible, you must make a ruling, because it will come up. In e-Sports teams find the best way to exploits the game within the bounds of the rules to win, if there is no rule or counter to something, they will use it. Trust me, I see it every day in our DotA league, that's why our rules are long as hell for DotA. DotA has MANY problems due to the restrictive WC3 Engine.

http://www.dxd-league.com/index.php?topic=519.0

They've all been crafted, much like the laws in your country, and most countries, from events that shape law. Every rule you see there is because an issue came up and a ruling needed to be made.

Luckily, I have the great opportunity much like I had with DotA & IceFrog to bring the matters to attention. I constantly browse the balance discussion forums to find abuse-able exploits that need brought to light.

[Fenald]

The analogy is not retarded at all. You cannot out TP a 30 second nyphora ult cooldown. The CD on a TP is 60 seconds, she can teleport a team in and out before you can TP again.

Furion and nymphora can and probably should be exceptions.
And the support hero in question was rhasta, who pulled ancient creep all game, was the only hero doing well on their team to be honest. Had Guinsoo, Scepter, boots of travel, throw your wards and kill a ton of ancients is easy.If mym is dominating so hard why is rhasta allowed to pull ancients all game to the point where he can afford to buy a rapier?


And you're not arguing to show both sides. You obviously pointed out a vendetta by saying " I can't just let hunter sit here saying things that make no sense"I don't have a vendetta against you I don't even know you. You are saying things that make no sense like a teams being completely dominated yet somehow has the map control to pull ancients all game and farm a rapier and kill roshan.


Pretty sure it made sense, not to mention i said said they had sentry wards, and back then sentry wards had full vision, and TP scrolls were stronger.So?


You ask why the whole team TP'd back for the SA and Furion backdooring? BEcause they didn't want 1 hero going back and getting destroyed and them taking the rest of the base, nor could the team of 4 (if one goes back) destroy the base before the furion and SA could.
the other team sent Furion (teleports across map like nypmhora except does decent DPS) to take out base towers while they push. This resulted in MYM tping back to base over and over to prevent the furion from destroying their base.Where is SA mentioned? You clearly stated that furion backdoored the base towers alone then they both went to backdoor the raxs after furion took down the base towers. So I ask again why is the entire team tping back to base to stop furion from backdooring when 1 aoe hero could have accomplished the exact same thing? If you're just unable to properly express what happened and it was both SA and furion why can SA and furion out push a 5 man team before SA has a rapier specifically when SA and furion are on a team that lost all their lanes and lost every teamfight?


You've honestly never been in a situation in which your team is winning, and has momentum... Then you get gayed by a backdooring invis hero?

I find it hard to believe unless you didn't play dota and don't have 5 years of dota/hon experience like the old school dota crew. Not sure how any of this is relevant to whether or not backdooring can be countered/is balanced. I find it pretty "gay" when a hero from another lane comes to mine and kills me when I'm winning my lane. I guess we should ban that too?


All of Competitive DotA has run fine with backdooring rules, and pooling rules. I don't want my competitive game to be "fine" I want it to not have restrictive rules that prevent creative gameplay that is, in my opinion, not imbalanced. Clearly pooling was/is imbalanced as I've already stated the only counter to it was to have your team pooling as well. Backdooring is not in the same boat as pooling.


AS a matter of fact, I held a meeting online with greats from teams all around the world including American teams, European teams, and Asian teams (fnatic, SK.Gaming, Mouz.Gaming, MYM, and compLexity to name a few).

And since Fenald you've already acknowledged my nymphora exception, then you must logically determine that abuse is possible. When abuse is possible, you must make a ruling, because it will come up. In e-Sports teams find the best way to exploits the game within the bounds of the rules to win, if there is no rule or counter to something, they will use it. Trust me, I see it every day in our DotA league, that's why our rules are long as hell for DotA. DotA has MANY problems due to the restrictive WC3 Engine.

http://www.dxd-league.com/index.php?topic=519.0

They've all been crafted, much like the laws in your country, and most countries, from events that shape law. Every rule you see there is because an issue came up and a ruling needed to be made.

Luckily, I have the great opportunity much like I had with DotA & IceFrog to bring the matters to attention. I constantly browse the balance discussion forums to find abuse-able exploits that need brought to light.I haven't the slightest clue what any of this last quote is about. Of course there are ways to abuse the game of course there need to be rules I'm not saying there should be no rules I'm talking about a specific rule that is highly debated.

The only question to ask is: Is backdooring counterable?

Given the game you've attempted to describe as the main reason you think backdooring shouldn't be allowed how can I possibly think that backdooring has no counters?

I've told you exactly what I would have done at multiple points during that game and I'm waiting to hear why it wouldn't have worked.

Frankly though it all seems pointless because your entire description of the game makes no sense. You try to make it sound like MYM was completely dominating this team and that this team some how magically abused the wonders of backdooring to win against the gods MYM therefore backdooring has no counter.

In reality what you've described is impossible. You can't lose all your lanes and lose every team fight and still manage to farm a rapier even if you somehow had the map control to stack neutrals for an obscene amount of time AND kill roshan.

Tell me if MYM has complete map control (they're higher level have more items and they win every team fight) why aren't roshan and the ancients warded? When someone heads to them why aren't they immediately killed which would be followed by MYM taking a bunch of free stacked ancients?

I know the game you're describing happened but it didn't happen the way you're trying to tell it.

This is a fairly long post so if you want to chose something to pointlessly try to argue with me against I suggest why what I've suggested MYM should have done in your delusional recollection of an old game wouldn't have worked.

Good night.

[krucifix]

Um, am I stupid or...

Nymphora's Ulti, even after boosted, is 60 seconds.

5 seconds shorter than Homecoming, and the same as Post Haste...

What's the issue again?


I know the game you're describing happened but it didn't happen the way you're trying to tell it.
And I'm pretty sure that sentence should be emphasized...

[HunteR_]

I'm sorry Fenald, but you are not as good of a player as any of the MYM's players back then. They were the top team that dominated every event for over a year, they did everything they could to prevent the backdoor.

You are posing hypothetical counters to change the outcome of a game, the truth is, you weren't there, the team in question is a top tier team who did everything they could to counter the backdooring. Don't take this personal, but the truth is your DotA background is limited to Throne it Pubs, and TDA games.

I'm not going to argue with anyone that backdooring isn't a game winning strategy, it is. We've all won a good amount of pubs with a 20-0 scout with ridiculous items, and in pubs where you don't have a team it works even better, and sometimes you have to because your team fails.

That's why I don't want to see it removed from the map in pubs, we all love to mess around in pubs, there's nothing more fun than a good scout, or a codex 5 hellbringer 1 shotting heroes.

We're talking about competitive play, it's a whole other aspect of the game, it's what seperates the pubs, and the pros.

This will be my last post on this topic, I've wasted a decent amount of time, and I've realized anything I say doesn't compute logic on your end, you already saw the exceptions that backdooring needs to be banned and agreed with me in those cases. To agree that there are flaws in the game that exploit backdooring (like nymphora ultimate tping allies to opponents base) then you most then agree that the argument is already lost.

You said banning backdooring is not plausible, yet you've already agreed on a given example of which it should be banned. You can't pick and chose the rules as they come, you must have a guideline set. If I ran tournaments on a case by case basis there would be a ton of problems, and it makes for a lot of controversy like the above game I described. Without set rules, you open the door to abuse and exploits, that's why laws are made.

Anyways, thanks for the good chat, I do enjoy reading your posts none the less Fenald. Hope to see you around.

[Jimb0v]

A) Scout is still in the game, and does MASSIVE amounts of damage in a short period of time with 5 gauranteed hits in less than a second late game.


He does. And he certainly is king of backdooring. He is also a poor early game hero. There are all sorts of imbalances in the game. Early game heroes, mid game heroes, late game heroes.

The ability to go invisible, which makes him a competent backdoorer is an ability that he has that takes the spot of some other ability. Anotherwards, the ability to backdoor late game makes him weaker in the early game.

I would never backdoor if the rule was no backdoor, I just think you are cheapening the game by making up rules that the developers did not put in the game. Maybe if its "late game" its good for e-sports that it ends quickly and does not go on and on.



B) Nyphora can not only teleport herself, but 2 other team mates to backdoor an enemy base. That takes a crap all over Furion. ( You can TP right outside of base and walk in, same difference, it's a few steps from attack range.)


Again, nymphora's ultimate is to teleport. She can never damage a hero with her ultimate. She can never kill a hero with her ultimate -- ever. It is near impossible to save or protect a hero with her ultimate. A no bd rule is a major nerf to Nymphora. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but I don't understand why YOU are the game developer. They have Nymphora in the game for a reason.

[esoteric]

It's exactly why it's banned from soccer, it's supposed to be a team game, not a who can pick an invisible hero and a hero that can TP into a base, while rhasta farms ancients and sells his items to buy a rapier for the team's carry to "magically" get when the rhasta coincidentally dies to roshan.

You can teleport, go invisible, and farm ancients in soccer? Man, I want to be playing the soccer you're playing.

[Fenald]

I'm sorry Fenald, but you are not as good of a player as any of the MYM's players back then. They were the top team that dominated every event for over a year, they did everything they could to prevent the backdoor.

You are posing hypothetical counters to change the outcome of a game, the truth is, you weren't there, the team in question is a top tier team who did everything they could to counter the backdooring. Don't take this personal, but the truth is your DotA background is limited to Throne it Pubs, and TDA games.

Are you unwilling or just unable to tell me a flaw in the hypothetical counters (I've given a few) to the game you've described?

You seem to think if you tell me MYM says 1+1=3 that I'll go oh okay because it's MYM.

If MYM did "everything they could to counter the backdooring" they wouldn't have lost. So once again why couldn't they do what I suggested?



Why was rhasta allowed to farm enough ancients to get a rapier?



Why was the enemy team allowed to kill roshan when you claim MYM was winning every encounter?



Why was MYM unable to hide a support hero with a potent slow or disable to prevent SA from running away during his teams TPs?



Why did they send the entire team back to stop a furion from backdooring alone when they're winning every team fight and could easily send 1 person back to defend and slaughtered his team to then take raxs?



I'm not going to argue with anyone that backdooring isn't a game winning strategy, it is. We've all won a good amount of pubs with a 20-0 scout with ridiculous items, and in pubs where you don't have a team it works even better, and sometimes you have to because your team fails.

That's why I don't want to see it removed from the map in pubs, we all love to mess around in pubs, there's nothing more fun than a good scout, or a codex 5 hellbringer 1 shotting heroes.

We're talking about competitive play, it's a whole other aspect of the game, it's what seperates the pubs, and the pros.Quoting this just to not cut out parts of your post, I have nothing to say to it.


This will be my last post on this topic, I've wasted a decent amount of time, and I've realized anything I say doesn't compute logic on your end, you already saw the exceptions that backdooring needs to be banned and agreed with me in those cases. To agree that there are flaws in the game that exploit backdooring (like nymphora ultimate tping allies to opponents base) then you most then agree that the argument is already lost.

You said banning backdooring is not plausible, yet you've already agreed on a given example of which it should be banned. You can't pick and chose the rules as they come, you must have a guideline set. If I ran tournaments on a case by case basis there would be a ton of problems, and it makes for a lot of controversy like the above game I described. Without set rules, you open the door to abuse and exploits, that's why laws are made.You haven't been posting logic you've been posting nonsense and not even attempting to argue against my points because you can't. Instead of having an actual debate of some kind you've essentially spent this entire discussion saying MYM lost to backdooring so backdooring can't be countered because MYM is the best team ever and they wouldn't lose if there was a way to counter it. Nice logic........

I can pick and choose the rules as they come. This is the second time you've pretended that I'm saying there should be no rules. Rules are made to keep the game as balanced but as open as possible. You can't claim that because I admit some forms of backdooring should be banned that all forms should be banned. All rules are like that including your current backdooring rules. You allow people to backdoor outer towers but not base towers. You allow people to share some items but not others.



Anyways, thanks for the good chat, I do enjoy reading your posts none the less Fenald. Hope to see you around.I accept your defeat and apology for posting such silly "arguements" on the subject.

If anyone else wants to pick up where hunter left off (completely avoiding what I said I'd do to counter backdooring in the game he described) feel free to do so.

I don't want the game to be imbalanced if backdooring truly is so good show me, explain it to me, prove it to me.

[Damage]

Nymphora would be a great candidate for that. Give the bottle to the carry and lane with a semi-carry..

[krucifix]

To agree that there are flaws in the game that exploit backdooring (like nymphora ultimate tping allies to opponents base) then you most then agree that the argument is already lost.


Dude, first you told us Nymphora's ulti is 30 seconds.

Then you tell us this?

(Hint: You can't target Nymph's ulti in enemy base, you simply can't do it. You must aim it outside the base and walk in, just like any others, and with sufficient warding, you got a **** tonne of time to see the animation (it appears as a red dot on the minimap) or see the enemy team walking in, allowing heaps of time to port back).

S2 have deliberately made BD'ing a possibility WITH the introduction of Nymph. Nymph was carefully constructed to keep BD'ing a viable (and not OP) strategy.

Whatever, you're the "maker of rules", but hey, you really gotta get your facts straight.

[BlueGhost]

Gotta say, I'm not pro enough to play in the games where backdooring is banned.

BUT, it strikes me as bloody odd that the people who want backdooring banned in their tournaments don't want the game rules changed to make backdooring physically impossible.

Why not?

Surely, if it's an unfair strategy for your pro games it's an unfair strategy for non-pro games. Given how bloody amazing S2 is at patching and balancing I'm coming over to the side of 'do whatever the hell is possible and S2 will fix it if it's a problem.'

And, if it IS a problem (which I had previously thought) then what the hell are Hunter et all doing?!? Agitate for S2 to make it impossible, either you want the game to be good for everybody or not! Why would you say 'Well we want the game to be awesome balanced for our tourneys, but in your jokes pug games when we're stomping all over you we want some extra advantages we can abuse!'

Which brings us to the original post, I'd previously considered sharing of items for the carry (I generally play support), but was told it's 'banned'. But (since some people disco and thus give items) I notice that some items don't work when passed, some items can be passed but then not used in recipes... Sooo I'm highly confused, why are S2 putting in the effort to choose which item's can and can't be used like this when it doesn't matter because it's all banned anyway?

[tonybus]

Hunter is lobbying to get S2 to fix it. For now its just banned in his leagues and tournies until the problem is hopefully solved.

[Skimit]

Those who love backdooring so much, maybe even item sharing, should go create a league where that is allowed and see what happens. Stop bullshitting hunter and arguing with him about what he should or shouldn't do in his own league - his rules are based on experience. Fenald + other noobs need to go make a backdoor league, play in it, then document from your own experience why it is better. Stop picking at hunter's argument, without supplying any real experience in the matter yourself, this just proves you got **** all to talk about, and is instead just trolling someone elses opinion. Seriously, I can't believe someone would talk to a troll this long.

Before someone trolls to my response, let me be clear, I want you to go support your "THEORY" of why backdooring (itemsharing as well if you support it) increases depth and more viable strategies by creating a league or community where you play with those rules and showing us what we are missing. Don't troll someone elses experiences with your theory of how they are doing it wrong.

[Fenald]

Those who love backdooring so much, maybe even item sharing, should go create a league where that is allowed and see what happens. Stop bullshitting hunter and arguing with him about what he should or shouldn't do in his own league - his rules are based on experience. Fenald + other noobs need to go make a backdoor league, play in it, then document from your own experience why it is better. Stop picking at hunter's argument, without supplying any real experience in the matter yourself, this just proves you got **** all to talk about, and is instead just trolling someone elses opinion. Seriously, I can't believe someone would talk to a troll this long.

Before someone trolls to my response, let me be clear, I want you to go support your "THEORY" of why backdooring (itemsharing as well if you support it) increases depth and more viable strategies by creating a league or community where you play with those rules and showing us what we are missing. Don't troll someone elses experiences with your theory of how they are doing it wrong.


You do realize that backdooring is allowed in gamereplays tournaments right?

Hunter has no experience hes legitimately terrible at this game and I don't even think he'll deny that.

How can I have experience about how something doesn't ruin games?

Thats like christian logic where someone tells you to prove god doesn't exist.

[tonybus]

gamereplays doesnt have experience hosting dota tournaments...

Hunter has a lot of experience, although he will indeed admit he is bad.


How can I have experience about how something doesn't ruin games?

Thats like christian logic where someone tells you to prove god doesn't exist. Apparently you can get experience about how something doesn't ruin games by joining a gamereplays tournament, since they allow backdooring. Where as you cannot prove that God doesn't exist because there is no empirical way to do so; bad analogy.

[Fenald]

gamereplays doesnt have experience hosting dota tournaments...

Hunter has a lot of experience, although he will indeed admit he is bad.

Apparently you can get experience about how something doesn't ruin games by joining a gamereplays tournament, since they allow backdooring. Where as you cannot prove that God doesn't exist because there is no empirical way to do so; bad analogy.

Hunter has about as much relevant experience as a 1300 player with 1000 games played which is why he'll never understand how to counter backdooring.


GR is coming up on their 7th tournament.

Since backdooring is so good and unstoppable please someone find me a match that showcases this?

Surely after 7 tournaments with backdooring rules being excluded someone would have abused this absolutely unstoppable "exploit" as it is completely legit in GR tournaments.


I don't have to prove it isn't overpowered you have to prove it is and you have 7 tournaments worth of games to do so.

[Extreme_Cake]

I've got to agree with Fenald here, particularly since there are a couple of huge points that Hunter is overlooking. Firstly, he is arguing against all backdooring, not just teleport backdooring, in spite of the fact that the two are clearly different, and that teleport backdooring is no longer possible. Secondly, it requires that your match referee be a complete ****tard who lets them pool the carry, and thirdly he is assuming that a team of MYM's calibre are too stupid to use either a) any of the counters fenald has already suggested or b) the incredible counter of doing the exact same ******* thing back.

[TheGeneral1]

Situation:
Me and my 4 teammates in late game push up and rax mid crushing ~3 of the enemy heroes when we do. We've been winning all game and this raxing has been a long time coming. We then walk across to bottom and rax when there are no creeps around near the bottom rax.

Is this not allowed in HoN League / is this backdooring?

I was under the impression that backdooring (the bad kind) was gaining access to the base in any other form than walking in with creeps. In the scenario above we walked into the mid lane with creeps and then went and raxed bottom after.

[HunteR_]

Fenald, I'm disappointed in your unwarranted, and countless attacks on my credibility.

I have over 5 years of experience running competitive DotA/HoN Leagues and Tournaments. I've ran 5 seperate DotA Leagues, been the CAL-DOTA Admin, even worked with IceFrog on preventing the same issues with these cheap tactics discussed all throughout the thread.

You are exactly what people hate about the DotA community and e-Sports in general, a self-proclaimed elitist who has done absolutely nothing to help e-sports, gaming, or even having anything to show for it.

You see, I have a theory that you are nothing more than your actions. Your actions have proven you to be a flaming, argumentative, and insulting person.

I'll let my actions speak for themselves.

[evotech]

No need to get so worked up, you won't have to worry about the HoN League rules in your pub games.

You probably never heard of the reason why backdooring and item pooling was banned in every high level competitive league and tournament for DotA. Some years ago, MYM was facing a team which will remain nameless in the finals.

MYM outplayed the other team the entire match, won every team fight, won every lane, and upon pushing mid to finish the game, the other team sent Furion (teleports across map like nypmhora except does decent DPS) to take out base towers while they push. This resulted in MYM tping back to base over and over to prevent the furion from destroying their base. Eventually, MYM pushes again, they have 2 rax down in middle against the opposing team. They lost their base tower to the furion in the meantime.

THe rest was a complete sad mess, the team with Furion also had a Stealth assassin who ran up into their base (which by the way was covered by a sentry ward incase the SA decided to backdoor).

What happens next goes down in backdoor and item share history.

The team with furion and SA go to Roshan while MYM is pushing, one of the support heroes sells all of his items and gets a rapier, in which he purposely dies to roshan, the SA takes the rapier, then takes the token of life/aegis from roshan, MYM knowing what's going to happen next all have Teleport scrolls ready. Low and behold the Stealth Assassin starts crushing a rax as Furion teleports in and they finish the raxes in a few swings.

The MYM team Chain TP's back to their base (giving the buildings bonus armor as they TP), and the SA runs away. MYM Gathers up again and starts to push buying a new Set of TP's, but the other team washes, rinses and repeats. There was absolutely nothing the other team could do due to the invisible hero and the hero that can teleport into the base.

Now let me remind you, that teleport scrolls were even better back then because instead of a glyph every 5 minutes, you could make buildings invulnerable by chain TP'ing to them which you cannot do now.

Currently in DotA and in HoN, if you tp back to a building, it dies, but you still TP if it dies.

Now, you can only activate your structure invincibility for a few short seconds every 5 minutes.

A team can backdoor multiple times in that timeframe.

I've been a DotA tourney/League owner/operator for over 4 years now, I've seen every abuse someone can think of, and new ones thanks to HoN being in beta.

Saying the game mechanics are made for a reason and should be exploited to the fullest is a horrible argument and I would love to see you counter the scenario above with you "LOL NUBS, CARRY TP's"

They did, they counter warded, they did everything they could, they had an amazing team, and even an additional bonus from TP's on buildings not present now.

They weren't able to win the game due to backdooring. The team ended up winning due to it not being in the rules, and ever since then, DotA was a laughing stock in the e-sports community.

I'm glad to be helping s2 Games move on the right track for e-Sport play and functionality. I'm aslo happy a lot of the DotA e-Sport community is involved. S2 Games has a huge advantage with the title, which is the experience and knowledge acquired by the DotA community at large.

Sounds like a good ******* strategy

You can just ban a strategy because someone won with it, thats insane

Laging at a team for winning with a strategy... sick lol. try playing another rts once

[Extreme_Cake]

Fenald, I'm disappointed in your unwarranted, and countless attacks on my credibility.

I have over 5 years of experience running competitive DotA/HoN Leagues and Tournaments. I've ran 5 seperate DotA Leagues, been the CAL-DOTA Admin, even worked with IceFrog on preventing the same issues with these cheap tactics discussed all throughout the thread.

You are exactly what people hate about the DotA community and e-Sports in general, a self-proclaimed elitist who has done absolutely nothing to help e-sports, gaming, or even having anything to show for it.

You see, I have a theory that you are nothing more than your actions. Your actions have proven you to be a flaming, argumentative, and insulting person.

I'll let my actions speak for themselves.
To say that you should judge someone by their actions only to turn on their arguments seems to me to be hypocritical in the extreme, nor is any of this in any way demonstrable or relevant.

[Fenald]

Fenald, I'm disappointed in your unwarranted, and countless attacks on my credibility.

I have over 5 years of experience running competitive DotA/HoN Leagues and Tournaments. I've ran 5 seperate DotA Leagues, been the CAL-DOTA Admin, even worked with IceFrog on preventing the same issues with these cheap tactics discussed all throughout the thread.

You are exactly what people hate about the DotA community and e-Sports in general, a self-proclaimed elitist who has done absolutely nothing to help e-sports, gaming, or even having anything to show for it.

You see, I have a theory that you are nothing more than your actions. Your actions have proven you to be a flaming, argumentative, and insulting person.

I'll let my actions speak for themselves.


Nice attempt to try to argue against me calling you a bad player without actually claiming you're not terrible at this game.

We both know you're terrible at this game.

How is attacking your credibility unwarranted?

You act like you're posting valid points and I'm saying that your valid points are irrelevant because you suck at this game.

What I actually did was argued against the situation you described and had my arguments ignored because you lacked the intelligence and actual experience on the subject to properly refute them due largely to me being right.

I've never ignored anything you've said about backdooring while you seem to have ignored everything I've said about it and instead continually spammed that MYM is the greatest and you've been in the dota scene for 5 years.

If you can't argue against my points then get out. If you want me to stop insulting your credibility then try actually replying to my post instead of implying that you're hunter_ and anything you say is right.

[Extreme_Cake]

Whilst in general I agree with you, I don't think the fact that he personally isn't good is particularly relevant (if indeed he isn't very good).

[Fenald]

Whilst in general I agree with you, I don't think the fact that he personally isn't good is particularly relevant (if indeed he isn't very good).
It is relevant when hes discarded any attempt to argue against the points being provided and instead has decided to start spamming about his experience (none of which includes playing this game).

What I take this to mean is that hes saying due to his experience what he says is right in which case the only thing left for me to do is point out the obvious fact that he is awful at this game and his experience shows that he thinks dagon 5 is a good item on succubus.

When credibility is all someone brings to an argument there's nothing left to attack but it.

[WaRDeN]

it blows my mind that the reason" backdooring and item pooling was banned in every high level competitive league and tournament for DotA" was that in 1 single game mym was faced with a strategy they hadn't encountered before that countered their team-oriented playstyle that was dominant at the time, lost to it, and declared it cheese

[HunteR_]

It wasn't, there has always been argument about it, that game was just the icing on the cake.

@ Fenald, In the last 6 years I have forgotten more about DotA than you will ever learn in HoN/DotA

I chose not to argue with you because your input is irrelevant, it's like my wife telling me how to manage a network.

Not to sound disrespectful, but trying to discredit my in game skill is a horrible tactic in arguing called ad hominem.

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.

It doesn't work, instead of giving sources of your credibility you resort to attacking mine, which obviously won't work because I own you in that department.

You keep further proving that continuing this thread is pointless due to you skipping over our points and yet resort to Ad Hominem.

Learn to respect your opponents, a tip from my irrelevant 27 years of life experience.

[Fenald]

It wasn't, there has always been argument about it, that game was just the icing on the cake.

@ Fenald, In the last 6 years I have forgotten more about DotA than you will ever learn in HoN/DotA

I chose not to argue with you because your input is irrelevant, it's like my wife telling me how to manage a network.

Not to sound disrespectful, but trying to discredit my in game skill is a horrible tactic in arguing called ad hominem.

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.

It doesn't work, instead of giving sources of your credibility you resort to attacking mine, which obviously won't work because I own you in that department.

You keep further proving that continuing this thread is pointless due to you skipping over our points and yet resort to Ad Hominem.

Learn to respect your opponents, a tip from my irrelevant 27 years of life experience.

Except that your claim is that you're right because of your credibility. I already crushed you in the actual argument don't ***** at me because you gave up on it and tried to claim your experience made you right then ***** at me for pointing out that you have none.


I argued against your points and you gave up trying to argue with real points and instead starting spewing out trash about your experience that has nothing to do with actual gameplay.

Are you stupid or just pretending to be?

Your playing speaks for itself you know nothing about playing this game seriously.

FYI I've been playing dota longer than you.

[Isin]

Wrong, back in the RoC days I used to give away all my gold before I'd die.

Kennedy, you've been playing for that long and you're still terrible? Now you have no excuse :p

[Furdy]

I do this for my Madman bro when i'm Ophelia

Works like a charm

[DeTalores]

Whadda ****, who cares. If you play in a tourney with bd'ing and want to use it as a strat then use it. There are tournaments where bd'ing is forbidden, so don't use it.

Seems like analogies are being used a lot in this thread, so here is one I can relate;


I play soccer, there is a rule called offsides. A player is in an offsides position if he is in his opponents' half of the field and is nearer to his opponents' goal line than the ball, and fewer than two of his opponents are in front of him. "The rule was created to prevent offensive players from "cherry picking" near the opponents' goal. Without the rule, offensive players could hover near their opponents' goal even when the play is on the other side of the field, with the hope of a long pass and an easy goal. The offside rule still allows for the chance to score.

Does this rule mean that cherry picking wouldn't be a good strategy? No, when I play with friends just for fun there are a bunch of cherry pickers and they score a bunch of goals.
Does this rule mean that cherry picking couldn't be countered? No, just drop your defenders back as far as the player goes and problem solves.
Does the offsides rule promote team play? Yes, instead of just crowding the goal trying to block someone just chillin by your goal you are more free to do your job as a defender and stay in position.
Does the rule impede on strategy? No, quite the opposite eg. offsides trap. where the defensive line will push up intentionally to get an offsides call on the opposing team.
Do they completely forbid offsides? No, heck I've had plenty of goals where the ref couldn't see the foul. Doesn't mean when you get away with it, it isn't looked down upon though. If they wanted to completely get rid of it, an offsides call would result in a yellow card, or even more severe, a red card.

EDIT: Just read hunter's post talking about soccer =/ I guess I just elaborated a little more lol