Ticket #846794 - Placing wards in base no longer counts for ban?

[RevZapp]

I reported a guy for placing 2 wards in our pool at the end of the game. Since when has this become acceptable? The email I received said "A GM has ruled your report to be insufficient or of poor quality..." This should have been a pretty standard one. What am I missing here?

[Daaaaaaaark]

u said "at the end of the game"
it didnt ruin ur game so why would u even try to report him in the first place?
if he has like 1000 games played those 2 wards will increase his wards/game by 0.002 - nothing groundbreaking

[RevZapp]

So if I avoid afk detection, destroyed my teammates' item(s), or intentionally feed at the end of a game, does that mean I should not get punished because the game was almost over? Why would placing wards be any different? This is still stat manipulation and he did not use the wards as they are intended nor was his placement an accident. Oh, and if he placed 2 extra wards in each of those 1000 games, would he not increase his wards per game by 2.0? The fact is he CAN use this tactic for stat manipulation and it IS against the rules to do so regardless of the amount of times you do it.

[`Yori]

they used to give out warnings for this, guess not anymore

there was a post made by a GM saying they're going to be more lenient on stuff that doesn't effect the outcome of the game that doesn't ruin the game experience for other players

too lazy to search for it

[dontmuteme]

I got a warning for doing this one time.

You definitely can get banned for this.

[tiGa]

since those 2 wards were clearly not going to be used for anything else and were available for purchase (or the person had already purchased them ahead of time), its ok. why do you equate placing 2 measly wards in the fountain right before the game ends with feeding/killing items/afking?

[RevZapp]

all 4 things i mentioned (wasting wards, intentional feeding, afk avoidance, and destroying items) are forms of griefing defined in the RAP section.

[RevZapp]

and my comparison of placing the wards down to the other forms of griefing was more of a question in reference to the end of a game. I think we can all agree that if you do any of the 4 actions I've mentioned in the middle of the game that you should be banned, but someone above claimed that since this happened at the end of a game that it should be no big deal. So, I pose the question, if this person had avoided afk detection to avoid getting a leaver penalty right before the game ended, should he not get punished just because the game was almost over? And the same question stands for the other forms of griefing. Why would wasting wards be any different? All forms of griefing are bannable in the middle of the game but only a select few are bannable at the end of a game? That seems nonsensical.

[tiGa]

but its not "wasting wards" if they weren't going to be used in the first place.

i'd also think that selling all of your items and buying a troll item like a doombringer right before the shrine goes down wouldn't be reportable (so long as you had megas and the shrine had like 100 hp left and was going down so there was no way it'd change the game)

avoiding afk would have to be done over a longer period of time so that wouldn't be a plausible comparison.

purposefully feeding the other team would only damage the stats of the person feeding so they're already getting something negative out of that.

i feel like destroying ally items would be kind of a dbag thing to do so i'd leave that up to the GM that is judging the ticket.

i feel like you're only wanting to get this particular ticket reversed because the player in question did something during the game (or after?) to annoy you. it seem like a rather trivial thing to fight for.

[RevZapp]

1) Wards that weren't going to be used shouldn't be used. Using them at the end of the game just because the game is over is stat manipulation (which as far as I knew was not allowed).

2) Selling all of your items and buying "troll" items isn't griefing (or at least I'm pretty sure it's not). I think you are well within your rights in the middle of a game even to sell your items and buy a codex if you want. As long as you are still playing the game (aka not afk avoiding) you won't be banned. Who is to say that it isn't strategy to buy the codex for extra damage output on your team (albeit you being completely fragile). The issue with selling your own items / destroying your own items is that it keeps your teammates from getting the benefit of your gold when you dc.

3) I don't know how long you have to be afk before the vote is enabled, but let's hypothetically say it's 5 minutes long. Okay, so, my point is if you were avoiding afk detection for the last 5 minutes and 30 seconds of the game, then the vote kick would only have been up for 30 seconds had you remained afk the whole time. So what's the difference then between avoiding 30 seconds of afk detection in the case I just mentioned and other forms of griefing for 30 seconds? My argument is that there is no difference.

4) Purposefully feeding the other team damages the feeders stats but also improves the enemy team's stats.

5) Nothing further to add about destroying ally items except that it should always be bannable.

6) I asked this question so I would know what is bannable and what isn't. I was following the guidelines written out in the game client. If something was wrong (either my interpretation or some gray area here (if there is a gray area then the guidelines should be updated to make things more clear)) then I want to know what it was so I can avoid it next time. The guy didn't really do anything else wrong in the game except for just being bad but that's not what I reported him for (obviously).

[MacroHard]

Please read both the FAQ and the "what is griefing?" threads stickied on this forum. All of your questions are answered there very explicitly.

[RevZapp]

Hardly has this question been answered. The following text is STRAIGHT from the game:

Item / Courier Spamming - Buying all the wards in the game and placing them in the base.

Is this not what this guy did? If that doesnt deserve clarification then I don't know what does.

[tiGa]

Hardly has this question been answered. The following text is STRAIGHT from the game:

Item / Courier Spamming - Buying all the wards in the game and placing them in the base.

Is this not what this guy did? If that doesnt deserve clarification then I don't know what does.

taken straight from the "what is griefing" post that Macro was referring to (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?396388-What-is-Griefing-Demystifying-the-Rules-of-Conduct-and-Common-Reporting-Mistakes#06)


Examples of what is NOT considered Item/Courier Spamming


Spamming or wasting items if the outcome of the match is unquestionably inevitable

[IPeonPeons]

Afking at the end of the game (keeping in mind the game only has 3 mins left in the game) is fine, but since the nature of this offence, if you avoiding AFK detection you are typically spending time, thus doing it at the 'end of the game' is a bit hazy.
-deleted-
Spamming couriers/wards/any other item at the end of the game is fine.

Basically if it's the end of the game there are no rules. Except maybe verbal abuse.

Also bear in mind that 'the end of the game' does not necessarily mean when the tree is about to fall, but can also include when your teammates are about to concede as well as if there is a great enough level/gold disparity between the teams. (14k+)

[St0l3n_ID]

+ in this situation it sounds more like: hey game is over in 30 sec, im in base, lets get my ward stats up a bit...

Cant see the harm in it, not worth a report :P

[NinjaSkies]

Hey RevZapp! As you can see, rules have been discussed about griefing and it has been decided that warding in the pool knowing that the game is going to come to an end is not reportable, this is because it is not game breaking and the guy who warded in the first place just wants to help himself by increasing his wards stats a bit and this does not affecting his stats greatly meaning it cannot be counted as stat manipulation due to the wards only contributing to his stats at a rate of 0.002%. An example of what is not misleading is Person A and his team are losing, all the barracks have been destroyed and there are enemy creeps surrounding the shrine, there is no way to comeback knowing that it is defeat. So Person A decides to place some wards knowing that he lost anyway and there is no way to win as well as being incapable of ruining the game. Therefore making this situation not reportable. Although there are still certain scenarios where ward spamming is still reportable. In cases where the game is not of lost and wards being a needed source to increase the chances of winning but has been abused due to Person B choosing to intentionally spam wards in wrong areas is game breaking and does not provide any assistance to the team is something that is reportable.

Oh and yes! According tiGa's post, he is totally correct with his references to the FAQ so yeah ;)

[MacroHard]

While rules are indeed relaxed if the ending is imminent, they are not suspended completely. Offenses that negative affect an ally's statistics are still a big no-no. An example of this would be throwing an ally to his death, intentionally, with pebbles.

[hackztor]

So then stat manipulation with wards at the end of the game is acceptable from what I can read on this forum? Used to be a grey area now its acceptable, S2 should better warn people before giving them a refraction point for submitting. I can see if a ward is outside the fountain, but behind the fountain is just silly. I just had this happen to me and did not know this ever became okay because it used to be bannable.

[hackztor]

And truly ward manipulation still maters no matter what. Even if its a low % number its still a ward. Wards show people who support. Now I will never buy a ward again when im support because people complain about kdr you look at ward number and can tell if they play supports or carries.

[tiGa]

would you consider fountain diving be considered stat manipulation?

ex: you have megacreeps and, instead of just killing the throne, you chose to sit by the fountain and kill whichever hero pops up. the odds of all 5 of them being up at the same time is slim so you'd have 5v1v1v1v1v1 and be able to just sit there and pick them off as much as you wanted. your kdr goes up, theirs goes down. boom! stats manipulated? its a situation that can only happen at the end of the game when the game is 100% decided. should you be banned?

*assume that for the above mentioned scenario that they've got one of those dbags who doesn't want to concede for whatever reason*

[SomethingOdd]

So every game you're about to lose, and you smack down 10 wards, go about 50/50, that's a +5 ward per game.

[IPeonPeons]

While I disagree with the new rule about placing wards in the fountain at the end of the game, I think the even worse thing that happened here is that there was no public announcement (that the people reporting would ALL see, ie in the game). If you want to change the rules, fine, but not telling people about the changes in rule is completely rubbish.

Taken from the ingame RAP (the one majority of people will read) it says:
'Buying all the wards and placing them in base'

Anyone can tell you what the sentence means. It means exactly what it says. However, now there is an invisible asterisk next to it that no one will see and will result in many unhappy players. (Take a look at threads like these and how misinformed people are)

[MacroHard]

would you consider fountain diving be considered stat manipulation?

ex: you have megacreeps and, instead of just killing the throne, you chose to sit by the fountain and kill whichever hero pops up. the odds of all 5 of them being up at the same time is slim so you'd have 5v1v1v1v1v1 and be able to just sit there and pick them off as much as you wanted. your kdr goes up, theirs goes down. boom! stats manipulated? its a situation that can only happen at the end of the game when the game is 100% decided. should you be banned?

*assume that for the above mentioned scenario that they've got one of those dbags who doesn't want to concede for whatever reason*

Killing the enemy team is not stat manipulation.

[BlackJaack]

So one qestion. when i place wards at the end of the game you dont punish me?

[CallMeCold]

Hey there guys, not to try and call you out MacroHard but I find the spamming of wards to be distressing and unclear for players. I've been looking for a definitive rule regarding the "infraction" and this is all I can find.


Killing the enemy team is not stat manipulation.

Stat Manipulation
Manipulation of stats, rating, or game outcome via multi-accounting or plants. Poor playing, unintentional feeding, and other similar incidents are NOT reportable under this or any other rule.
Source (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/conduct)

Here we have asserted that stat manipulation (which is defined in the HoN Code of Conduct), and as a general rule does not allow for "poor play" to be an infraction, is not bannable when it in cases of specifically multi-accounting or plants. This is poorly worded and lacks scope, which results in the post we see here: (see example below)


While rules are indeed relaxed if the ending is imminent, they are not suspended completely. Offenses that negative affect an ally's statistics are still a big no-no. An example of this would be throwing an ally to his death, intentionally, with pebbles.

The second half of this post makes perfect sense, as no player should suffer intentional demise as a result of trolling or griefing. However, I have a problem with the lack of specificity on the issue of ward spamming both in the CoC and FAQ you suggested.

Here is the statement that is being used to validate the GM responses as stated in the FAQ: What is Griefing? (source (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?396388-What-is-Griefing-Demystifying-the-Rules-of-Conduct-and-Common-Reporting-Mistakes))


Examples of what is NOT considered Item/Courier Spamming


Spamming or wasting items if the outcome of the match is unquestionably inevitable



I understand that this is to streamline the reporting and limit "stupid reports" but the same reasoning that excludes ward spamming in the pool goes against the reasoning for a pebbles or behe griefer being banned. When the game's end is deemed "unquestionably inevitable" padding one's stats with wards suddenly becomes ok. I'm not going to say it is the same thing as sacrificing a random teammate but at what point does any of the actions have other then to misrepresent the stats of a player. Wards are generally considered "psudostats" but I would like to suggest that it is irresponsible for a GM, or anyone with a hand in these issues, to say that one method of misrepresentation is less important then any other. Pebbles chuck can actually be avoided by a player by simply turning off the team assist and yet a player can report someone for doing something which negatively effects his stats while improving the stats of another that is totally avoidable and yet cannot report a person who pads his or her own stats by warding the pool or immediate area seems a little irresponsible from my standpoint.

I'll end by saying the RAP team does a great job dealing with problems and I have no issues with specific GMs or any decisions that have been made. However, I want to make sure that the rule which we are trying to understand is clearly written and presented to the community as a legitimate decision as opposed to something that seems "not worth our time" and is just passed off as what seems to be a free stat that is important to some players (mostly those hard supports who have a low kd but great wards per game) and is something that should be taken note of.

[MacroHard]

Thank you for your detailed response.

The "not worth our time" argument that many community members accuse us of is simply not the case. It takes the same amount of time for our GMs to mark innocent as it does to mark guilty, and reviewing ward spam cases literally takes less than 30 seconds to do.

What it came down to was this:
We do not feel that multi-day suspensions are justified for trivial stat boosting when it does not impact the other 9 players at all.

So please be aware that our decision in this has nothing to do with streamlining the RAP system or reducing workload on GMs. It has everything to do with what is and isn't fair. If you disagree and feel that it is fair that is perfectly understandable. I look forward to continuing to read responses and opinions on this topic.

[CallMeCold]

Thank you for your detailed response.

The "not worth our time" argument that many community members accuse us of is simply not the case. It takes the same amount of time for our GMs to mark innocent as it does to mark guilty, and reviewing ward spam cases literally takes less than 30 seconds to do.

What it came down to was this:
We do not feel that multi-day suspensions are justified for trivial stat boosting when it does not impact the other 9 players at all.

So please be aware that our decision in this has nothing to do with streamlining the RAP system or reducing workload on GMs. It has everything to do with what is and isn't fair. If you disagree and feel that it is fair that is perfectly understandable. I look forward to continuing to read responses and opinions on this topic.

Haha, I'd like to thank you for the prompt response! I guess what I'm looking for is if we could find another way to punish or avoid the ward misuse and possibly make a definite ruling in the FAQ section on wards specificially. I'm not a "support player" all the time, but I definitely have had games where the team had lost a set of rax and the carry essentially quit, because I or whoever was playing support, was too broke to ward and decided "to make a statement." He or she then proceeds to buy all the wards and wastes them in the pool. Even though the gold and experience disparity as well as overall game may be out of reach and we might even be trying to concede, this behavior is against the core values of a team game such as HoN. 99% of the time warding the pool doesn't harm anyone and just makes you look childish or petty, but because the rule is not black and white (I'll get to that in a sec because it shouldn't be) people clearly find it distasteful.

So, if the ward placement becomes irrelevant at the end of games that is fine. I would just hope that some sort of announcement could be made or the in-game RAP be slightly tweaked to mention that "if the game is in fact clearly decided, the misuse of wards is not grounds for a ban" or something along those lines. Personally I believe that the GMs put a lot of work into keeping HoN a product which is enjoyable for all players. For me, I find it to be misrepresentation of a players skills in game and a petty way to signal that the game is over, but as far as making it bannable as the game is clearly out of reach I understand the triviality of the action in relation to the punishments that are available. Thanks for reading and I eagerly await your thoughts!

[GeneralNoob9]

Thank you for your detailed response.

The "not worth our time" argument that many community members accuse us of is simply not the case. It takes the same amount of time for our GMs to mark innocent as it does to mark guilty, and reviewing ward spam cases literally takes less than 30 seconds to do.

What it came down to was this:
We do not feel that multi-day suspensions are justified for trivial stat boosting when it does not impact the other 9 players at all.

So please be aware that our decision in this has nothing to do with streamlining the RAP system or reducing workload on GMs. It has everything to do with what is and isn't fair. If you disagree and feel that it is fair that is perfectly understandable. I look forward to continuing to read responses and opinions on this topic.
Sorry but how reports turn out and what you say just don't match up. What i mean by this is lets say 5/10 of the reports that my brother put out were not read. 5/10 of these reports were justified and made sense according to the RAP rules in game. Seems like you guys just don't have enough volunteers checking the reports, or just don't care enough. This seems like its often reported, and you guys don't want to waste time on it? Kind of like how the kick system is abused.