[2.5.22] Thunderbringer

[Torkelyo]

While Thunderbringer has been free to play now, my friends and I have picked him up again quite a bit after not touching him for a very long time. I like him because he's iconic and almost nostalgic. Classic glass cannon magical nuker.

However, the hero is trash. In my humble opinion. Unfortunately.

I feel he has a crippling almost-kill syndrome. He can do big damage (with level advantage, pre magic armor), but cannot finish the kill, which is so unfortunate.

His auto attack is one of this biggest problems. In lane as well as in team fights, he has practically no auto-attack. As easy as he is to gank, his short attack range (and slow attack point) largely keeps him out of range to attack creeps. This often largely limits his last hitting to chain lightning, which is strong for that purpose, and will harass well to boot. But it pushes the lane hard, crippling him because of his familiarity to death by stuns and slows.

Mid, which used to be his domain, is lost to much stronger heroes with better ganking, better rune control, and better lane control.

The hero is outdated. The little utility he has in his anti-invis features and ministun can no longer compare to the toolboxes of other heroes, and his magic damage is no longer extraordinary. His ult is still strong at times, but not enough imo.

Ellonia also contributed to me making this post. She feels sort of similar in that she is a glass cannon magic nuker with short cooldown spells. But the utility in aoe slows and a stun that she brings, along with the usable auto-attack is a source of envy for our old-school ape.

I say give him a present or two :)

What say you?

[KawaiChan]

My only issue with him is how null-stone can block his ulti. Imagine an enemy team with all 5 of them has null-stone. Now should tb use his q to take out a single null in a middle of team fight or just let the ulti takes off all the enemy team null and let his team to follow up?

[Benny0]

It wasn't that long ago when TB was considered absurdly OP due to his ability to tear apart trilanes.

I understand he seems weak right now, and he is, but buffing him might be catastrophic.

[Death_Rattle]

If anything he is a victim of power creep. Poor tb.

[`11411181]

If anything he is a victim of power creep. Poor tb.

^

*whistles a small tune about tb vs bomb vs artesia vs kinesis vs ellonia*

[Hubaris]

Changing his autoattack in conjunction with chain Lightning can cause too much dominance to be had; he was designed with that short CD Chain Lightning in mind.

That being said, TB has almost never been touched in either game (read: Rarely). Its not him which is the problem but the world around him. He can still output serious damage, but thats all he can offer, damage. Compared to other bursty mid heroes he is lackluster due to their multiple escapes, globals, stuns, slows, etc.

That being said, I know he was recently buffed in DotA with Lightning Rod affecting creeps, and to be honest its unnoticable. His recent buffs in HoN have been decent for him, but the problem still lies in the versatility of other others compared to him.

In before "DotA and HoN two different games ahueahe".

[MrSmith]

My only issue with him is how null-stone can block his ulti. Imagine an enemy team with all 5 of them has null-stone. Now should tb use his q to take out a single null in a middle of team fight or just let the ulti takes off all the enemy team null and let his team to follow up?

Dont really see a problem here, its the same for Vindicator and SW


Overall i think TB got the same problem as many of the oldschool heroes, they just drop off with all the new heroes that are introduced, many having escape mechanisms, stuns, or heavy slows, tb remained static and mostly untouched while the game around him changed a lot

[Dominare]

TB is still very strong imo. The point about him pushing the lane with his lasthitting is moot, because mid is a lane you -want- to push as often as not (e.g. as the rune is about to spawn) and the distance is so short that their tower will push it right back for you. He still scales (purely spell-wise) better than any other int hero in HoN because of his insanely good passive, his ultimate still effectively reduces the max hp of every enemy when its up, he counters invis heroes & shroud buyers, and as for claiming he doesn't have good lane control I can only ask wtf. Sure he might not kill the other guy regularly if they're not retarded, but once you hit level 5 and have your bottle, the other guy should be spending most of his time hiding at tower waiting for health pots. If he isn't, you're doing it wrong.

[Wei2SMITHIE]

TB was once a 1st ban/pick type of hero when the tri-lane meta was popular as he was able to feed off low level supports. Now the game is fuelled with tanks with in-built shields, heroes with high mobility, cheap magic armour etc it pretty makes TB non-viable in most line ups.

I’d also like to make a point of the fact TB’s only lane option is to go mid. The removal of using your crow to re-fill your bottle pretty much stopped him from even attempting a side lane solo. Putting this hero in a dual lane scenario is just a joke.

Without focusing on the negative you look at his positives which is being able to supply high burst “MAGIC” damage. You take a look at other heroes that can do this as well e,g Kenesis, Bomb, Ellonia, Pyro etc. They all have some form of stun/slow and can also rely on the range of there auto attack.

In my opinion I think it’s fair to say TB is severely weak at the moment, he’s been pushed out of the meta, then forgotten about and finally outclassed by other heroes that can simply do it better.

It’s legitimately fair to say TB has been s2’d. He requires a buff or a re-work.

[Tanubis]

I think a very slight boost to utility/animation is all he needs to be effective again, and the buff should be placed in such a way where it doesn't affect his laning phase. For example, change chain lightning's animation so it doesn't draw a bright blue line to TB, so he can spam it in teamfights from the fog without revealing his position. Slightly increase the duration of the clear/truesight granted by lightning bolt. Or maybe him use the lightning bolt as an aoe spell with an AOE so small it can only hit one unit anyway, just so he can use it to effectively counter wards and activate the truesight on it without needing a target visible.

[iWasCptKrok]

TB was once a 1st ban/pick type of hero when the tri-lane meta was popular as he was able to feed off low level supports. Now the game is fuelled with tanks with in-built shields, heroes with high mobility, cheap magic armour etc it pretty makes TB non-viable in most line ups.

I’d also like to make a point of the fact TB’s only lane option is to go mid. The removal of using your crow to re-fill your bottle pretty much stopped him from even attempting a side lane solo. Putting this hero in a dual lane scenario is just a joke.

Without focusing on the negative you look at his positives which is being able to supply high burst “MAGIC” damage. You take a look at other heroes that can do this as well e,g Kenesis, Bomb, Ellonia, Pyro etc. They all have some form of stun/slow and can also rely on the range of there auto attack.

In my opinion I think it’s fair to say TB is severely weak at the moment, he’s been pushed out of the meta, then forgotten about and finally outclassed by other heroes that can simply do it better.

It’s legitimately fair to say TB has been s2’d. He requires a buff or a re-work.

Nymphora+TB actually works in lane.

[Wei2SMITHIE]

Nymphora+TB actually works in lane.

There's is not doubt about it working and be some what effective.

More to my point i was trying to say, why nymph tb when you can nymph pebbles (more effective) as an example. There are simply better heroes out there that can fulfil his roll.

[shmoo]

I think he should have at least 300 MS as the new S2 heroes mostly have 300 ms.

He doesnt needs the range in my opinion, but skillwise he needs really a buff. I heard in dota he got buffed while he here got nerfed...

The last buff was nice but just to low as usual from S2, I would like to see something big, at least as big as the Soul Reaper buff.

Unfortunately, the release of Ellonia makes him look really horrible now, plz give him some love S2.

[KillBei]

I think maybe he doesn't deserve to have such a low movespeed either. As far as I know the other heroes with low movespeed get a nice little stun/slow to help them out. (I don't confess to know all the heroes, but Pebb/Glac/Polly/WS come to mind.) And all he can do is hit people with a 350 dmg nuke. The 4 heroes I just mentioned -- if they stun/slow you and his teammates are following close behind you're screwed. If TB gets a spell in you can just run away. If you die you were already low HP anyway or already in a bad position.

I think it would be nifty to rework him a bit. Nerf his teamfight a bit but buff his laning by increasing chainlightning cooldown and increase his range maybe? Give him a little 1 second movespeed bonus when he casts bolt?

That being said, I think TB is close to being very good because he does do a lot of damage. I'm reluctant to buff him a lot but I do feel he is less than spectacular in his current state.

[rancewong]

Please buff TB by boosting his dmg output but not giving him any extra utility, range or ms. Or else TB will just lost his characteristic. TB is all about offering crazy magic dmg but nothing else. He is designed to be slow, short ranged, without escape mechanism and count heavily on positioning.

This is also how I think balance should be - "Go Niche and Extreme".

[PlayeroJ]

Pure conjecture, but in my opinion one of the aspects of power-creep that screws this hero the most is not the versatility of him vs other heroes but the fact that the range of his lightning rod was reduced to 800 while HoN has grown in an environment where the capacity to output damage from as far as possible has grown even more vital (especially for TB) and other heroes can either do this or escape more easily. They honestly didn't even need to buff the passive's damage value's IMO just undo the range nerf.

[PrestonLee]

squishy hero, no escape mech, no decent farming skill, 300 auto attack range, bad auto animation, no slow, only a mini-stun. Compare to long list of s2 heroes with escape mech, slow, stun, flashfarm capability, and decent burst damage all in one hero.

yep, 100% a victim of power creep. give all his skills a tapering slow trolol :p

[LordTroll]

This is also how I think balance should be - "Go Niche and Extreme".

This is actually a very interesting point and one that I agree with.

I think such a principle would make strats (and bans) much more intriguing. AKA you wouldn't see the same heroes and bans almost every game, but rather specific types of strategies with many heroes that perform the same basic role too but each with their own small advantages and perks.

[HELLruler]

This is how I see TB: he is strong during the middle game, when he can gank more and ults to finish enemies. He'll be a support late game, stunning enemies and dealing damage

He has some problems when going mid, but he can harass well and make the enemy stay far from the minions and you, so you can farm a bit less worried

[supply_depot]

I never feel like TB is underpowered when I play him. He is heavily dependent on items for survivability- but he offsets it by being able to deliver massive amounts of damage with relatively little.

TB scales well all game. As a ganker, he is definitely sub-par compared to some others. However, lightning rod and his ult always give him significant damage presence in any clash (assuming the other team doesn't all have Shrunkens activated before ult). He has incredible cast range, to boot.

TB more or less requires a push tablet to be viable. It will give him the extra oomph to get the killing blow cast off, or it will get him out of a bad situation. Other than that, his major weaknesses - mana hungriness and survival - can both be increased by stacking stats or hp / mp items heavily on him. He can last hit with reliability, kill heroes with relative ease, and ALWAYS get assist gold, so I never have trouble getting some core items for him.

TB requires more finesse than people might realize. More so than a lot of heroes, positioning and map awareness are extra crucial on TB because he will be a big target. A smart TB player can be a very risky gank target. If the gank set up goes wrong, TB will be dropping a massive dump of damage on the ganker's head. This hinges heavily on the HoN 101 skills - positioning, mind games, juking, recognizing who has the upper hand.

I think he's great fun and very effective. Not necessarily easy, though.

[Antimodus]

yea, he is not an easy hero, the difficulty of playing him seems to scale with the skill level of the enemy players much more than with most heroes. Other nukers like MK pebbles etc, just "do their thing" to at least some degree of effectiveness if played well. To get the kind of damage out with TB that would "earn his keep" (considering the minimal utility he has otherwise) you have to keep kiting the teamfight and not simply walk in cast your stuff and die like a support or initiator might. It's a very hard thing to do sometimes with no tools to assist you whatsoever (aside from the ToC core).

[Gorb]

squishy hero, no escape mech, no decent farming skill, 300 auto attack range, bad auto animation, no slow, only a mini-stun. Compare to long list of s2 heroes with escape mech, slow, stun, flashfarm capability, and decent burst damage all in one hero.

yep, 100% a victim of power creep. give all his skills a tapering slow trolol :p
Can deal excessive single target damage, has an excellent harassing/last-hitting mechanism and a passive that allows all of his skills to scale throughout the game.

I'm not disagreeing on the power creep, but I do dislike it when people state all the negatives without the positives. It creates an unfair image of the hero being appraised.

EDIT: if you could PM me a list of S2-created heroes that have a slow, stun, escape mechanism, decent farming ability (bear in mind that to do it constantly requires a low manacost) and burst damage (to avoid off-topic moaning about "S2 heroes", a fallacy that has previously shown to be false), I'd be happy to debate the subject with you.

[suprgosu]

EDIT: if you could PM me a list of S2-created heroes that have a slow, stun, escape mechanism, decent farming ability (bear in mind that to do it constantly requires a low manacost) and burst damage (to avoid off-topic moaning about "S2 heroes", a fallacy that has previously shown to be false), I'd be happy to debate the subject with you.

Master of Arms (escape being both sides of the ult, manacost may be debatable but acid-ground-thing/slowsplash is decent enough with a bottle or manaring)

Monkey King (no description necessary)

Amun Ra (No additions necessary)

Midas (Manaring needed)

Draconis (No slow? don't know haven't played it)

Panda (also weak escape but atleast able to jump cliffs, no slow but atleast 2 stuns and some knockbacks)

Fayde (Weak escape and high manacost though, also no slow)

Need more?

EDIT:
I would love to see this debate about TB continue, it's a really fun hero but I am on the side of too weak in its current state. Either a attackrange+movespeed buff to help in early stages and teamfight positioning or some more drastic rework, perhaps a stacking movespeed buff after casting spells like pyro/armaddon placed on either the third skill or levels of the ult.

This would help chase down enemies as the typical situation is that you can do 90% of a heros HP but have nothing to finish with, or you get jumped, burst the best you can but simply die while on cooldown with no way to get out.

I will admit that a large part of the problem is that people rush something like spellshards, staff with striders or other "stupid" items instead of first going tablet/pk/phaseboots and/or stormspirit to aid mobility and survivability. But the point still stands that alot of heroes have initiation or escape built in and more than a few of them pack the same "punch".

[`11411181]

"S2-created heroes "

"Fayde"

[suprgosu]

"S2-created heroes "

"Fayde"
I would say that moving around the "farming spell" from stun to whatever the AOE damage-nuke-circle is called is enough of a change to make it more viable for farming, not only is a circle aoe better suited for lane-creeping you also don't put your stun on cooldown in case you get ganked. So there is more than enough of a difference from NA to differentiate, now stay on topic.

[Quillenator]

Most people in this game have the wrong mindset when it comes to outdated heroes. You see stronger and stronger heroes being released while the origingal heroes from the start fall behind. Instead of screaming buff buff buff to put them on the same level as their newer adversaries, the problem stems from the newer heroes being overpowered from release. Instead of buffing old heroes to their level, new heroes need to be brought down to the same level of balance as the old. The overflow of new heroes every other week might attract other people to try the game, boosting player base numbers, but it is also crippling the balance. Unfortunately, the majority of HoN players are in the 1400~ bracket and do not understand the concept of balance or strategy, so pumping out hero after hero has a better affect to the game overall in terms of revenue and playerbase, but cripples the game quality to oblivian.

[supply_depot]

This would help chase down enemies as the typical situation is that you can do 90% of a heros HP but have nothing to finish with, or you get jumped, burst the best you can but simply die while on cooldown with no way to get out.

I will admit that a large part of the problem is that people rush something like spellshards, staff with striders or other "stupid" items instead of first going tablet/pk/phaseboots and/or stormspirit to aid mobility and survivability. But the point still stands that alot of heroes have initiation or escape built in and more than a few of them pack the same "punch".

I don't like to pick apart points too hard, but I think there are some flaws in the paradigm of TB here. TB is a magic nuker who does massive amounts of team damage while offering very little utility. His primarily role is not that of an early game ganker, e.g. Deadwood. He CAN gank with some degree of success because of his ridiculous early game damage (especially with a level lead), but it's not what he was built to do. He is also not an initiator (though his ult is most effective at the beginning of a fight), so he doesn't require an initiation skill.

If enemies are getting away at 10% health left, it sounds to me that the team is not coordinating well enough. TB can put enough damage out to make a kill easy, but it's hard for him to pop out and do it alone. (Though proper sequence of q -> r -> w all within lightning rod range can destroy low hp heroes instantly.) TB does not fill the same role as DW / Pebs <insert ganker here>, so it's hard to make this statement and say he is underpowered because of it.

Getting jumped and being able to do very little afterwards is the name of the game. 95% of heroes suffer from this problem. That's why Legionnaire is so manly. If lucky, TB can get an ult off, though, and make the countergank / clean up process much, much easier. Not guaranteed, but easier.

On a final note: nobody packs the same punch as TB. Find me a hero that can instantly do 750 (+ lolzy Lightning Rod) damage in a single skill without fail at level 6. Not to mention his single target nuke is murder early (and still mean late thanks to Lightning Rod).

Nullstone / Shrunken / Magic Armor diminish this ability significantly, but TB's ult is still the single highest damaging move in the game. Only well placed hag / MB ults could do more damage, but they require much more positioning and other factors to get maximum efficiency.

TL/DR : TB's role is magic damage. He does it really well. Less flexibility in roles does not = underpowered.

[Tomate]

The positive aspect that you mention, I won't even argue with it...

The issue with TB is getting there... TB's laning phase is just awful... level 1 to 4 are but a slow agony. Once you hit 5, you're enemy will often be near level 6, will have had his bottle before you pretty often and will just keep being extremely annoying to you.

If TB had a decent laning phase, he would probably be 1 of the very strongest hero in the game but since his early game is fairly lackluster and that games are all about snowballing out of the laning phase into a pushing scenario into a 25 minutes GG... this hero just lacks overall to fit in.

You can still argue that he has potential and so on, but the new breed of torturer and the like will just dominate TB 24/7 in mid.

[PlayeroJ]

^ You know upping his passive radius back to 1000 would also help his laning phase too. Hate to sound like a broken record, but its seems like the degree to which nerfing both the damage and especially the range of his passive was a bit excessive to begin with.

[KawaiChan]

I just played TB against 3 null-stone user. Early game, yeah sure I dominated. It not long until they got Null-stone mid-game. Thats when it get tough. I cannot use my ss to initiates team fight anymore (got BH in my team). It's really a pain to take out the null first when the opposing team will aways try to jump me first. But I hold on until I got a refresher. After that It's GG :). My point is the Null-Stone pickup really affecting TB damage combo output. So my question is should Null-Stone be able to block TB SS or it is intended?

[sharbarachu]

I'd like to see TB gain some mana sustainability so that he can shine where he's supposed to; early-mid game (and also make him more viable for side lanes). You really need to buy escape/gap closing items on TB (tablet, etc) to be useful in early/mid game. In other words, you basically never have mana unless you get every rune, and this is quite a task as he's pitiful at controlling runes. Re-working his abilities so he has a way to gain mana back, in perhaps a unique mechanic, would make him a lot more interesting to play.

One idea would be something like the following: his Q applies a debuff as it bounces from target to target. This debuff restores X% mana to TB if his W nuke hits said target within X seconds. The more bounces in, the more returned. For instance, if your chain lightning bounced to 5 targets, and you hit the 5th target with your W nuke, you would recieve more mana. Something that requires paying attention to maximize - he's really just boring atm.

[skeloperch]

Even when he was first pick/ban, he was an outdated, wimpy hero. Everything he can do, WH can do better, or Bombardier, or Artesia (though she is pretty bottom tier as well), or blah blah blah. I think the biggest thing that's wrong with him is that he has no way to utilize his offensive power seeing as if he gets too close, he's ****ed, and if he doesn't get close, he can't do much more than ulti. He is the single easiest hero to kill in game, with even Vindi and Flint being harder to pick off.

It all boils down to him not being able to put out enough damage to warrant not having anything else. If he had longer range (on everything), more utility, or more survivability, he would be better off.

[suprgosu]

Even when he was first pick/ban, he was an outdated, wimpy hero. Everything he can do, WH can do better, or Bombardier, or Artesia (though she is pretty bottom tier as well), or blah blah blah. I think the biggest thing that's wrong with him is that he has no way to utilize his offensive power seeing as if he gets too close, he's ****ed, and if he doesn't get close, he can't do much more than ulti. He is the single easiest hero to kill in game, with even Vindi and Flint being harder to pick off.

It all boils down to him not being able to put out enough damage to warrant not having anything else. If he had longer range (on everything), more utility, or more survivability, he would be better off.


Exactly this.

So with supply_depots points above. Its a hero that needs levels to be effective, meaning, in all seriousness solo mid vs a solo where in all situations except very few it will not only get out denied, but also out harassed or even killed by heroes such as torturer, kraken, rampage hag and so on.

What you have in the high level lane then, is a hero that has lower farm than that of the opponents, can't control runes due to lack of mobility, sort of a weak ganker that is better suited at helping out by staying in lane and ulting on every gank attempt. It then needs to remain on a lane that it shouldn't, but inevitably will push due to chain-lightning. Meaning you have to go back (and not get farm) or stay in a pushed up lane and die due to lack of escapes.

When all this is said and done and you and your team is somehow still in the game, you can't initiate, can't chase and you don't bring anything to assist your team except damage, no stun, no slow nothing. So you still get picked off easily if they have any sort of mobility (and as previously discussed, they most likely do) so you do a lot of damage really quickly and then die. Maybe you get a kill, but every other teamfight you most likely die, even if your team "wins" so the opposing teams valkyrie, silu or whatever "damage dealer", that does 1/3 of your damage stays alive, ports out and goes back to farming.

Now this was a long rant, but will this win you games? My money is on no....

[Antimodus]

Can deal excessive single target damage, has an excellent harassing/last-hitting mechanism

TB's single target damage is hardly excessive. His total hero damage (vs all 5) is one of the best though. But to really accomplish much of anything with it, he needs to stay alive - extremely difficult as he's the easiest pick-off in the game.

Of all the heroes that have a lasthit aiding spell, TB's is probably the worst one.
Morax, Kraken, Armadon, Rampage, Deadwood whatever. All of them get the lasthit almost for free, or at worst need a chalice to spam it forever. TB needs 80 mana per last hit.

A hero that does this much damage to everyone is hard to balance though. SW is another good example. Make them too powerful and they can bury entire teams.

[Ekamo]

TB's single target damage is hardly excessive. His total hero damage (vs all 5) is one of the best though. But to really accomplish much of anything with it, he needs to stay alive - extremely difficult as he's the easiest pick-off in the game.

Of all the heroes that have a lasthit aiding spell, TB's is probably the worst one.
Morax, Kraken, Armadon, Rampage, Deadwood whatever. All of them get the lasthit almost for free, or at worst need a chalice to spam it forever. TB needs 80 mana per last hit.

A hero that does this much damage to everyone is hard to balance though. SW is another good example. Make them too powerful and they can bury entire teams.

But none of those has an almost guaranteed harass tool if they are choosing to last-hit with it. A skilled Thunderbringer has insane lane control with it, while the others are limited to just a strong last-hitting ability.

[Dominare]

TB's single target damage is hardly excessive.

Assuming an enemy with 1000 hp, a single cast of BoL does 460 magic damage. It cannot miss, and is on a 7 second cooldown. As an example & reference frame, Pyro's level 2 blazing strike does 675 on a 90 second cooldown, and has 100 less range (and costs over triple the mana). TB may have problems, that's a fair debate, but let's not start trying to say that his damage output is one of them, because it demonstrably is not.

[Ekamo]

I feel there are some common misconceptions that constantly leads to the same, straight-forward suggestions about how to "fix" Thunderbringer, and this applies to any other hero as well. You know who you are people, and I please ask you, refrain from those suggestions since if they are not deleted they will most likely be ignored by every single person reading it.

The most common, but nevertheless faulty misconception, is that TB needs a higher range in order to become balanced. I do not think anyone would argue that if you put enough numbers into this category, he will sooner or later reach a status where he is considered "balanced". Then why has this not been done?
When trying to balance a hero, one must take into consideration many factors. Every single stat about a hero matters, and there are numerous ways to tweak those. There are countless ways to make a hero reach the status of "balanced" where one of the most obvious ones would be to simply incrementally increase the damage done on a certain skill (let's say, Thunderbringer's Lightning Bolt) until the hero is considered "balanced".

This way of balancing ignores a very important aspect though.
Is the simplest and most straight-forward way the optimal way to achieve balance?

I am not saying that such is never the case. I am simply trying to emphasize the fact that it is more often not than the other way around.

Why you might ask. Why not just take the most obvious route to balance, and be done with it?
The fallacy in that logic is that it completely ignores the fact that balance and design are two very intertwined concepts. The design on a skill is not limited to the way the skill works, it is also directly tied to the numbers on the skill, and thus balance. One might say that, for example, the high range on Pharaoh's ultimate is simply a balance aspect of the hero, but I would argue that it is even more so a choice based off a very specific goal in design to add a certain flavor of the hero, with the numbers of it later balanced around that conscious design-decision.

Here is when Thunderbringer comes into the picture. It should be made very clear that his low attack range is a conscious design-decision, and not simply a remnant from the older Dota engine. When Thunderbringer was created, it was with very specific design goals in mind, which even though I have no inside information on, can make decently intelligent guesses about:
He was designed to be a high damage hero-nuker, who from a pretty long range could completely obliterate specific heroes or wreck teamfights. He was supposed to be a strong laner with his strong last-hitting ability, but was given extremely low range and low movement speed to make up for that. In lane, he thus has some pretty major counters (high-hp heroes with strong solo-killing capabilities), because he is so reliant on a static amount of damage which does not effect them as much as well as being very easy to kill when being just slightly out of position. He is also limited by the fact that he can rarely completely seize a lane unless he gains an early advantage, due to his innate tendency to push the lane up to the enemy's tower (which conversely can benefit him as well if one capitalizes this to gain a strong rune-control). His low movement speed, natural squishyness and lack of true disables throughout the entire game is indeed intended, to work as a buffer to allow the possibility of giving the hero a ridiculous skill-set, namely his ultimate. The hero is given glaring weaknesses to make up for his extreme strengths, which in Thunderbringer's case is to be able to from a long range deal high amounts of burst damage on a pretty consistent basis. This in due turn creates something very unique about him, something that further increases strategic versatility and diversity in the game.

Given this somewhat simplified analysis, I pose this question to all of you:
When trying to balance a hero, such as Thunderbringer, should we go with the simple solution of buffing the heroes weaknesses, and in the process taking away a very unique aspect of the hero (and thus the game as a whole), or should we try to find an alternative solution that makes the hero retain its unique flavor while nearing this status which we commonly refer to as "balanced".

Considering this, I find it very evident that our goal in this forum is to discuss our ways to these optimal solutions, by critically probing the hero's strengths and weaknesses, and by somewhat reaching a consensus on different approaches to how the hero can get closer to a balanced state. On the opposite side of the spectrum, I assert as well that our goal is not to mindlessly spit out suggestions (such as in this case, increase Thunderbringer's attack range), which might slightly improve the game's balance, but that in the long run might have unforeseen consequences and maybe even be detrimental by decreasing the diversity in design in the game.

Good design is often imperative in order for a hero, and subsequently the game, to be appreciated, both from a player and spectator perspective. When balancing a game, one shouldn't be satisfied with a solution that works; one should instead strive to find an optimal solution (implying there is such a thing) that will satisfy casual and competitive players and spectators alike. I do recognize the fact that some concessions can/should be made one way or the other when a situation truly calls for it, such as nerfing/buffing the pub-dominance or competitive dominance of certain heroes or vice verse for the general betterment of the game, but this should by no means be the norm.

It is our job to take this into account in our discussions, and not solely focus on the easiest, most conspicuous way to balance a hero. It is our job to maintain a high standard in our discussions, and this can only be achieved by a joint effort to try to avoid outright suggestions like the plague. Because if you cannot prove that your idea is the optimal way to balance said hero, why should we others bother to even consider it? It is not our job to find your line of thought when only given the end-result; on the contrary it is your job to explain it to leave room for as little ambiguity as possible.



The goal of this sub-forum is to have intelligent discussion on the interaction of heroes, items and game-play related issues, and to ultimately probe and provide insight on overall balance.
With this in mind, please continue, and stay focused on what this forum actually is meant to do, to provide intelligent input on this game's balance.

[supply_depot]

Here is when Thunderbringer comes into the picture. It should be made very clear that his low attack range is a conscious design-decision, and not simply a remnant from the older Dota engine. When Thunderbringer was created, it was with very specific design goals in mind, which even though I have no inside information on, can make decently intelligent guesses about:
He was designed to be a high damage hero-nuker, who from a pretty long range could completely obliterate specific heroes or wreck teamfights. He was supposed to be a strong laner with his strong last-hitting ability, but was given extremely low range and low movement speed to make up for that. In lane, he thus has some pretty major counters

Great post, Ekamo. Folks need to keep in mind that this isn't the suggestion forum. The balance forum exists to more or less 'diagnose' heroes / items / skills that may have balance concerns and point out why.

I think Ekamo hit the nail on the head by stating that TB had a specific design that, as a hero, TB was meant to have great strengths (enormous magic damage with good range / strong laning ) offset by great weaknesses (MS, no stuns, lower hps).

TB doesn't fit as well into the current meta where players are leaning towards tanks and heroes like Valk who don't have much of any "hard counter". That doesn't necessarily ruin his viability. The competitive scene and the meta go through phases. I almost spit out my drink after leaving HoN for 6 months and coming back to see people tripping all over themselves to first pick Moraxus. A paradigm change in roster lineups could see TB picked favorably again.

[LordTroll]

TB was meant to have great strengths( strong laning ) offset by great weaknesses (MS, no stuns, lower hps).


A hero is not a strong laner when his only reliable method of last-hitting against a proper opponent is using a chunk of mana on a spell that will make you lose lane control simultaneously by pushing it... Counter-intuitive.

For the sake of discussing Thunderbringer properly let us not assume he has "great laning", it's below average at best really.

[Ekamo]

A hero is not a strong laner when his only reliable method of last-hitting against a proper opponent is using a chunk of mana on a spell that will make you lose lane control simultaneously by pushing it... Counter-intuitive.

For the sake of discussing Thunderbringer properly let us not assume he has "great laning", it's below average at best really.

That is an extremely simplified analysis, which does not at all take into account his huge harass-capability, something which defines the hero's laning. Every time Thunderbringer has been picked up, a huge reason has been to capitalize on weaker laners, which in this case actually is a lot. Mid to low hp, RANGED heroes he has in most cases no problems what so ever to deal with, but on the contrary he is very easily killed by more tanky heroes with early kill abilities (hai DW).

Sure, he uses mana to last-hit, but who ever said every single last-hit has to be done that way? If he is harassing 85 magic damage (64 reduced) for 65 mana means that basically every single mana point TB has can be turned into equivalent damage from level 1. Starting with 260 mana, and having 325 mana with standard early items (two minor totems and a mark of the novice), combined with the mana regen of 1.01 he receives from those items, he will be able to pump out 7 during the first two minutes of the game (9 if he uses mana potions), which is a total of 580 reduced damage. There are few heroes who would stand up to that harass combined with auto-attacks (yes, TB can autoattack) which is why they on a constant basis has to back of to use regen of sorts, which in due turn allows TB to use his auto-attacks to last-hit and deny (if you miss last-hits in freefarm and blame it on his attack-animation/projectile speed, that is your problem). And now I didn't even take into consideration the fact that he levels up for increased intelligence and mana regen, which probably allows him to use one or two more chain lightnings.
With this very spammable skill, Thunderbringer gains a substantial lane-control, and this is what allows him to dominate most heroes. Pushing into enemy tower is not necessarily always bad since it resets by tower if you plan it well enough, and it gives you an early advantage over runes. If the enemy backs off to avoid your Chain Lightning harass, you use your auto-attacks, and if they don't, they will take ridiculous amounts of damage very quickly.

Saying Thunderbringer is "below average" in terms of laning is completely and utterly false. Just because he hasn't seen usage in a long time does not necessarily mean he is horrible. He is very close to how he was when he was considered one of the most game-breaking heroes in the game, and even though the game has changed, he still retains some of his strengths.

[Uroefl]

Honestly I still think Thunderbringer does such an amazing job in dealing damage throughout the whole game, not just early to mid but also late with his % based damage output.
I do think Thunderbringer is not underpowered but by all means not to strong either, I think you could compare him to heroes like Hellbringer,Martyr etc, they're not underpowered but not to strong either.

A small buff could be viable but I wouldn't mind if Thunderbringer would be the same, but then again that's my opinion.

[KawaiChan]

Most people doesn't realize that lighting rod only deals maximum damage when the enemy is at full HP. The damage is substantialy weak if the enemy is at 50% HP. So it mean that TB ulti is most effective used to initiate a team fight. And there is the issue about the null-stone that I mention earlier and also TB need to be at 800 range from his enemy for his rod to be effective. And of course if TB is seen in the middle of a team fight he will be targeted theres no doubt about it. So how hes gonna deal with all that problem? SH? Tablet? PK? But these item will delay his mana item. And hes not really a good farmer at that.

[supply_depot]

I'd like to see his auto attack range increased to 600. He's definitely slightly underpowered right now.

Don't want to flame, but the balance forum rules say specifically "No outright suggestions."

Elaborate on this point. Offer up reasons why TB's attack range is unfit with his role and skillset. Demonstrate why it makes him underpowered. Counterpoint it with what an extended attack range would offer.

For the laning phase:

His current attack is fine because he has enough range to attack the melee mobs without making himself horribly prone. TB also benefits from grabbing lots of int and stats early for his mana pool and survival. Coupled with his OK starting INT, he last hits the melee creeps decently (not great). The archers can be tagged with Chain Lightning super easy: which also benefits because the archer is usually the last to die in a wave and nearest to the enemy hero. This means that the lightning will A.) Not push the lane too hard because it only tags the archer creep and B.) Guarantees that the lightning will hit the enemy hero instead of bouncing into the creep wave.

For the rest of the game:

TB's skill set revolves around spamming spells for lightning rod damage. The 1ish second cool down after you do the Chain -> Lightning Blast -> Chain -> Ult -> Chain combination is usually better spent closing more ground until the next Chain Lightning -> Thunderblast. Or running away cause you're spent. This is the window that the push tablet becomes essential for either closing ground or gaining ground.

[Nitpicker]

Honestly I think TB is a very fun hero to play but lacks a good form in design. He is made to nuke people from afar (and be very effective at it) without fault. All his spells cannot miss and he even has a steroid passive to make him a bit more balanced vs high hp heroes (and to make him last even after midgame). The only problem is that his hp and armor are so low that when he gets close enough for his passive (which had its range nerfed, don't get that decision at all) to kick in he can very easily be killed by anyone who has a blink, semi blink, long ass ranged stun or slow (and seriously, a ton of heroes already have some form of these spells built in, if not they can buy it). He just simply melts away making your options very limited.
You can either
a: suicide when you want a kill since you have to get in a dangerous range with no escape items
b: stay very far behind in teamfights and only come in after some stuns and other spells have been landed (be sure to wait untill the other team used their good spells cause you simply can't afford to get hit by them), did I mention that the whole team will be looking for you since you die in 1 second and deal shitloads of dmg?
c: get some form of escape/utility item so you can gank/escape more successful, sadly to get the money for this item you need to either last hit very well (very hard for tb since low range + not enough mana to spam chain to make enough money off it) or make some nice kills; which, as stated, is hard unless they are already at half hp and you have mana to use ulti and blast.

I get the idea of making him a glass cannon and giving him some extremely powerfull spells, but his complete and utter lack of any way to get away after the damage has been done is much too extreme, it feels as if his strong points are overly compensated with bad ones. He is seriously gimped because of this, since if a ganker gets you unawares you are 100% dead, you have no means what so ever to defend yourself. The only thing you can do is nuke them. But sadly no ganker will ever jump you with only 50% hp.

[Brannock]

Honestly, I think what you describe is less of a problem with Thunderbringer being overspecialized and more of a problem with other heroes being way too generalized and not having a strong niche. If more heroes were designed like Thunderbringer, with massive strengths and massive drawbacks, then we'd see better strategical and tactical variety and depth.

[SirVH]

I know midwars can't be parameter for balance, but I highly suggest that the ones that asks for buffs on tb play a couple mid wars matches. Receiving 1k+ damage on his Q+W combo having mystic vestments is something not really enjoyable. I think the hero is balanced because he needs to farm to get to that point, as his enemies. But still, it's interesting to see him in mid wars, as some other heroes that we asks for buffs and see how they work properly farmed.