Guise of Possession

[Vanarchy]

Greetings, everyone. Stay awhile and listen.
This suggestion is about merging two not so often used items with similar abilities into one. Before discussing the output artifact, let's take a closer look at it's components.


Item 1: Whispering Helm
According to statistics (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/item_use.php), this item has lower chances of being crafted then any other lifesteal item. Purpose of choosing this over other alternatives can be either desire to improve farming capabilities (as well as survivability due to armor boost), or intention to craft Symbol of Rage. On the other hand, looking at statistics again, only 1 Whispering Helm out of 5 becomes Symbol of Rage. This means that players get this item mostly because it makes farming and laning easier.

Ability: Dominate creep - 75 manacost, 300 seconds cooldown. Target: Non-Boss enemy creep.
Most of the time this ability is used to get a personal Minotaur, whose life purpose is to tank another creeps in the forest, to execute creep stacking or sometimes just to stand still and give you vision over the spot.


Item 2: Alchemist's Bones
Despite the greatness of this item, it can be rarely seen in games (statistic proves it as well). This item is worth making if you craft it asap and revisit creep camps every 100 seconds. After 9-10 minutes it will eventually be recompensated, making futher uses of it a clear profit. This item is so underused because there is no way to upgrade it or to use it in a recipe of a more powerful artifact.

Ability: Transmute creep - 25 manacost, 100 seconds cooldown. Target: Non-Boss enemy creep.
Using this ability on a big blue guys (Catmans) will give you 250+ instant gold, plus 40+ for killing the smaller creep, which doesn't pose any threat to your HPs alone.


As you can see, these items are very similar: both items improve your farming capabilities, both abilities are used on large forest creatures. That's why I came up with an idea of creating an artifact, which has both Whispering Helm and Alchemist's Bones in it's recipe...



Guise of Possession

http://i46.tinypic.com/2iij4ua.jpg



Ability: Possess creep
Manacost: 100 = because 25 + 75 manacosts of component's abilities.
Cooldown: 100 seconds - when you use this ability, creep is killed, so cooldown is inherited from Alchemist's Bones.
Range: 600 - same as Transmute.
Target: Non-Boss enemy creep.

Simple explanation: When you use this ability, 2 things happen:

Targeted creep is killed, gold earned from the kill is multiplied by 3 (same as via Transmuting).
If the creep had any passive ability, it is added to Guise of Possession. You retain stolen ability untill you replace it with the new one or untill you die.

Restrictions:

If targeted creep had an aura, it becomes a passive self-only ability, granting it's effects only to the bearer.
Doesn't steal Permanent Invisibility from Warbeast's Hellhounds (though steals Critical Strikes).
Ability can't target Ancients, Puzzlebox minions, BooBoo, Malphas and Kongor.
You can have only 1 passive captured at any time, getting new passive overwrites the one you already have.
Multiple copies of Guise of Possession are redundant and still don't let you hold more then 1 passive.
Has shared cooldown with Alchemist's Bones.

Animation: Should be like Plague Rider's Extinguish ability animation - creep's soul floating to the hero.

Icon: Should be some kind of runed mask + visuals to represent the act of soul draining.


Existing passives:

2 poison damage every second for 20 seconds (10 seconds on heroes) (from Ebula)
15 Attack Speed (from Minotaur)
12% Movement Speed (from Snotter Boss)
30% to base Damage (from Wolf Commander, doesn't steal Critical Strikes from him cause both damage and crits would be overpowered)
20% chance for 2x Critical Ctrike (from neutral Wolves)
30% chance for 1.5x Critical Ctrike (from Warbeast's Hellhounds)
3 HP regen (from Vagabond Leader)
20% MS/AS slow on attack(from Sporespitter)


Theoretically possible changes: Going even further, I would say that some of forest creatures don't have any abilities at all, while adding 15% evasion to Catmans, or 8% bash to the grey gargoyle-like fatties would not make the gameplay worse, while bringing variety of new possibilities.

Resulting passives:
Passives stolen are not the same as they were on creeps. Numbers tweaked to balance too powerful and too weak abilities.

5 poison damage every second for 6 seconds, 10% movement slow on attack(from Ebula)
20 Attack Speed (from Minotaur)
10% Movement Speed (from Snotter Boss)
25% to Base Damage (from Wolf Commander)
10% chance for 2x Critical Ctrike (from neutral Wolves)
15% chance for 1.5x Critical Ctrike (from Warbeast's Hellhounds)
Melee units that attack you get their attack slowed by 20% and movement slowed by 10% (from blue Ogre)
6 HP regen (from Vagabond Leader)
10% MS slow and 20% AS slow on attack(from Sporespitter)


Optional improvement:
Possession can be used on Ancients. You don't get 3x gold for them though, just normal bounty. Adding this improvement to Guise will allow to steal 2 more passives:

15% Evasion (from Dinosaurs)
25% Splash (from Dragons)


Alternative
While I was thinking about this item, I came up with additional version of Guise's ability. Don't get me wrong, the one above is the one I like the most, but I want to share other possible variant as well. If first (main) variant was mostly based on Alchemist's Bones, this one uses both component's abilities equally.

Ability: Possession v2.0: 100 manacost, 240 seconds cooldown. Target: Non-Boss enemy creep.
When you use this ability, 4 things happen:

Dominates targeted creep, getting control of it and switching it's team permanently.
Creep becomes completely golden (tinted with shining yellow, small sparkles animation should pop up from time to time).
Gives you gold you would get if you killed this creep, multiplied by 3.
Guise of Possession gives the creep same bonuses it gives to the bearer (5 Armor, 20 Damage, 30 AS, 15% Lifesteal). Creep also gets 5.5 magic armor and debuffs last on it for as long as they would last on hero.

This variant of ability is about literally turning creep into gold, thus you get a more resilient minion then one you can get via Whispering Helm. Gold multiplier can be increased to compensate increased cooldown compared to Alchemist's Bones (100 -> 240 seconds), though this is a balance and not a concept issue.


Conclusion
I hope I succeeded at what I was trying to do - explaining the concept of this item. As it seems to me, it has big potential and can bring some innovation into the game. If you prefer to stay in jungles early game, Guise of Possession's components will let you do it more efficiently, as well as offer you a later-game improvement. And, most important, existance of such item in the game means more variants of item building. Hope you enjoyed reading this suggestion, you are truly welcome to post feedbacks and share your thoughts about Guise of Possession.

Peace.

[Akkibac]

I really like the concept of this item, the components definitely need some love,
i think this item def fills a hole stat wise


but i think some of the buffs could be a bit OP on some heroes
20% chance for 2x Critical Ctrike (from neutral Wolves) on scout/CD with this items haste/lifetap.. PLUS all that extra gold from transmute...

possibly have the buffs wear off after 60-100s or nerf some of them

also adding an ice armour type buff from the ice ogre (i know its not a passive but could ad some more diversity)

[Vanarchy]

I totally agree, this item needs balancing to make the stolen bonus neither too powerfull and nor too weak. Like I said, nerfing Critical Strike chances to 12% for 2x and 16% for 1.5x should do the trick.
By the way, according to the changelog of version 0.1.51 (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/changelog.php) , Scout (as well as Puppet Master) got their passives nerfed:
- Disarm's bonus damage is now dealt via a critical strike.
- Whiplash's bonus damage is now dealt via a critical strike.
* This prevents it from stacking with other critical strike items. Note that you have multiple critical strike sources that proc on the same attack, you will automatically use your most powerful critical strike.
So my point is that if Guise of Possession was in-game, I would prefer stealing +30% base damage passive for Scout instead of critical strike.

About the idea of changing the type of stolen bonus to "temporary buff", I thought about this, setting duration to 100s (same as the cooldown) is possible, but there is one balance issue about it:
Most of the time I used Whispering Helm on Wolf Commander to get 30% damage bonus aura, it accelerates foresting or helps your team kill Kongor faster. In team battle such aura creep is useless because it is fragile and dies from 2 AoEs. One of the main purposes of Guise of Possession is to keep the desired ability safe. Creeps with auras don't run fast and you have to spend time on microing while you need to focus on controling your character's actions. My point is: loosing the stolen passive ability upon death and desire to reuse this item every 100 seconds makes the "temporary buff" restriction excessive.

Stealing Ice Armor from blue ogre seems compelling to me, but the output passive should be weaker then the buff this ability gives:
Buff: 3 armor, slows melee attacker's MS by 30% and AS by 20%.
Stolen Passive: 3 armor, slows melee attacker's MS and AS by 15%.

[VenomKing]

This item sounds really awesome.

For alchemist bones, I personally use it on puppet master because of the attack speed it gives.

And yeah I only get whispering helm to get satanic.

But this item open tons of possibilities.

It's also obviously a carry item.

I think the numbers of the abilities should be tweaked, exept if the auras just because a self bonus.

Because otherwise it makes ophelia useless AND it would be ****ing overpowered.

Other than that it's an awesome item I can't wait to see implemented, T-UP all the way.

[Killuminator]

Great idea and it is exellent that something more can be made with Alchemist bones item . I like the aura stuff on this helm coz it can fit many heroes with different ideas. Keep it up

[argnoferich]

Hahahaha easy t-up. Nice concept and choice of ingredients though the recipe is expensive! It should be no more than 700.

[Instop]

I like concept of this item.

[Vanarchy]

Hahahaha easy t-up. Nice concept and choice of ingredients though the recipe is expensive! It should be no more than 700.


Well I just need more replies about the price of this recipe to evaluate the right cost. Personally I think that the recipe should not cost less then 1000 because it connects 2 farming items - which brings you alot of gold throughout the game.

[J3T_Tlag]

interesting, I like the concept, though it has very limited use as of now, that 30% bonus damage/20% crit seems viable late-game. T-up

[PwnS]

Wonderfull idea , and would give a lot of new synergy to the game .

[all4non]

Up-up!

[FiNGERS]

I love the concept, but I think stealing the critical strike is a bit much. I'm sure numbers will be changed if this gets implemented. You got my vote!

[Alystair]

Brilliant, T-UP. Not a fan of alternative ability, the original ability really sells this item for me (as well as finally being able to keep midas late game again)

[CKMo]

like. props for idea

[Isin]

It should transfer actives as well, but with only 1 charge.

[Vanarchy]

It should transfer actives as well, but with only 1 charge.
I thought about it. There are 4 active spells on creeps atm:

Mass stun (2 secs) - from Minotaur
Mass slow (3 seconds, 150 damage) - from Catman leader
Tornado (channeling) - from Vulture
Ice shield (buffer) - from blue Ogre

Tornado is channeling and Guise is mostly for DPS characters, so channeling it instead of doing your job (killing ppl) would be weird. Ice Shield should be stolen as a passive (with numbers tweaked ofcourse). So only 2 options remain - mass slow and mass stun. Conviniently, both of the abilities have 100 manacost - same as Guise's activation cost, but it's difficult to say - is giving another one mass stun to Pestilence balanced (even for one charge)? Or giving it to Legio, or to Magebane who can blink into the middle of the crowd and use it. Well if people will reply that this is ok and that this change will make Guise better, I will add it to my suggestion.

Sounds pretty good IMO.

You get the benefit of da bump.

[Vanarchy]

Will post a full list of the resulting passives tomorrow, as well as a new small addition to concept.

[Vanarchy]

Added "Resulting Passives" section where I list all numbers I suggest for stolen passives. Need your feedbacks about optional improvement as well (usage of this item on Ancients).

[SUNSfan]

T-up from me. I like this idea b/c whispering helm is a good item, but i don't always want to upgrade it to a symbol of rage. More options = win.

[A`nub`is]

Crit is too imba (gives you an extra itemslot basically and saves you a few thousand gold). Other than that it's a pretty neat suggestion.

IMO, keep the activation abilities out, just keep passives.

[Fany]

easily the best item idea i've seen so far.

[Vanarchy]

It's my birthday today. Bump :)

[Isin]

Oh, I found another flaw with this item: It would force you to eat snotters and minotaurs, giving hardly any gold.

[Debbye]

A r u kidding me?
It's basically another skill for a pathetic price.Imagine you get 30% damage by entrapping the soul of the wolf commander.This is so overpowered.I think it should be nerfed.For example, the abilities should last for only 15-25 sec, and the cooldown should be about 120 sec.
But in general the idea is good,fresh and unused,something we haven't seen before,not just another item giving a bunch of stats.T-up for that.

[Blaky039]

War wolves anyone? I SAY YES!

[Vanarchy]

It's basically another skill for a pathetic price. Imagine you get 30% damage by entrapping the soul of the wolf commander.

Well, you can control Wolf Commander via Whispering Helm, and he'll give his aura to all allies in the radius as well. Main con of such "aura creeps" is their survivability - you have to micro them to stay away from AoEs and be on the edge of aura range from you. Converting the aura to self-only bonus will let you focus on controling your character, but on the other hand it won't benefit your teammates anymore.

Thank you all for your feedbacks about this item. 3 more votes and the Guise will be moved to "Popular Suggestions" forum - and who knows, may be it will get developer's attention there. If it happens, they will rebalance all numbers anyway. :)

[Extreme_Cake]

You're missing the point of why people don't get Alchemist's Bones. It's because the only heroes that really need Attack Speed are Puppet Master and Chronos. Chronos isn't picked much on account of being crap, and Puppet Master has no need of improved farm.

[Vanarchy]

You're missing the point of why people don't get Alchemist's Bones. It's because the only heroes that really need Attack Speed are Puppet Master and Chronos. Chronos isn't picked much on account of being crap, and Puppet Master has no need of improved farm.

I have to disagree with you: Predator, War Beast, Rampage and Hammerstorm are good candidates for the Alchemist's Bones. You are right, Bones are underused at the moment, and that's exactly my point - existance of Guise of Possession in the game will give players more reasons to craft Alchemist's Bones.

[SoerenRyge]

Overall I think it is a quite good item. I see it as quite balanced since it's only self, and great combining of items. Keep it to the passives, and it'll be fine IMO. T-Up.

[Damage]

Where's the attack speed from the alchemist's bones?

Otherwise I like it... I don't want to do the mathcraft to see how 30% damage or the crits compare to DPS items, but the stacking with alchemist's bone's is nice. Maybe add a passive ability to do 60(maybe more)% extra damage to building if used on catapults.

[Ryper7]

wow, all i can say is that i really think your on to something here. it gives another very viable option for two very underused items and it lets heroes choose from a few different abilities to patch up what they mite be lacking. i definately want to see this implemented in game. definate T-up from me, good work and good idea man

[Desodesto]

Check out your cost numbers. 1850+1900+1200 Does not = 3900. Also for the base stats of the item there are much more viable late game lifesteal items for around the same amount gold. I think it's a very good suggestion, but with the steep cost possibly raise base stats to 8 armor, 30 Damage, 40 attack speed, and 18% lifesteal. This would not be gamebreaking, but would be nice additions for the 4950 cost that is currently posted.

[Sabotai]

T-Up !

[Nolifer]

Interesting concept, I feel like this kind of item is missing.

[Vanarchy]

Where's the attack speed from the alchemist's bones?

It is there. :)


Check out your cost numbers. 1850+1900+1200 Does not = 3900.

Oops. Shame on me!
Updated the picture so now it has the right 4950 cost.


Also for the base stats of the item there are much more viable late game lifesteal items for around the same amount gold. I think it's a very good suggestion, but with the steep cost possibly raise base stats to 8 armor, 30 Damage, 40 attack speed, and 18% lifesteal.

Well, constant stats this item grants can be improved, but on the other hand leaving stats as it is and making stolen passives more powerful is also a good alternative solution to compensate for the price.

[DzOnY]

This item can be really useful on carries. T-up!

[msth00]

T-up..... but w8....what happens if u target a tempest elemental?(lol)

[siknoz]

Voted yes, very nice idea for an item. At first I was thinking it would be a little imba, being able to get crit or +30% damage(endgame that would be 60+ dmg), but after looking at the cost of it, it would give about the same stats as some other items for the same price.

/thumbs up

[Fenrisulf]

i like the alternative version with the creep turning into gold

[Vanarchy]

i like the alternative version with the creep turning into gold

You are first one who finds alternative version more interesting! :)

[Bonczek]

Awesome idea. Nothing overpowered, good use for Alchemist Bones, and generally VERY useful item for most characters.

[Vanarchy]

Nothing overpowered, good use for Alchemist Bones, and generally VERY useful item for most characters.

Well, I still think that numbers on critical strikes are a subject for tweaking - Guise costs 5k, so it should have powerful stolen passives, but it also shouldn't overwrite existing items like riftshards. I am thinking about small improvement of constant stats the Guise gives.

[own_age]

Great idea! The cooldown of 100 is too little though.

[junglebadger]

really cool idea, pretty original and would definitely change the meta-game of hon a little. may require some nerfing, but conceptually this is a really cool idea :)

[Vanarchy]

T-up..... but w8....what happens if u target a tempest elemental?(lol)

It's obvious, after 6 hits you get an evil clone of yourself! :D *kidding*

Well, actually that's not a bad idea, though some balancing needed. Something like "every 12th attack creates an illusion of your hero which lasts 20 seconds, deals 35% damage and receieves 400% damage".

Great item. Main thing that I like is universality of this item - you can bump some stat you are in need of, like MS for Rampage and Corrupted, AS for heroes with on-attack effects, Criticals for those with high inborn attack speed, even Ebula's DoT/slow can be considerable in some situations. Numbers seem balanced and kinda fit the 5k price, 2x criticals should probably be set to 10% though. Absolute T-up for the idea.


Optional improvement:
Possession can be used on Ancients. You don't get 3x gold for them though, just normal bounty. Adding this improvement to Guise will allow to steal 2 more passives:

15% Evasion (from Dinosaurs)
25% Splash (from Dragons)


With this improvement this item would be perfect.
P.S. Do not consider tempest's elementals, that copy-creation is too hard to make right.

[kamimage]

i would love to see this item in game! some of the buff would need some retooling (the crit is a bit on the op side) but i think it would be a great item. i do think it should have a timer on it but make 10 Seconds longer then the cd so you can have it all the time it just takes some work

[Vanarchy]

Update

Nerfed the chance for x2 criticals to 10%.
Nerfed the chance for x1.5 criticals to 14%.

[HighRoller]

Nice item! I'd love to see this in game.

[magnifier]

Looks good, quite expensive so not too overpowered

I like the idea quite a bit, but it's worth noting that a good chunk of the reason only one whispering helm in five becomes a Symbol of Rage is that people don't finish their Symbol before the game ends. They'd like Symbol, but some other luxury usually comes first~

[Vanarchy]

Thank you all for the support!

[g0dAri3s]

Sounds good but I think the 30% base damage from the wold commander may be a little high. Other than that its a fantastic Idea.

[OhBob]

Why didn't they put the item in the game yet? It's brilliant, nice idea (I had that for another game, but you brought it here, so yea).

My only suggestion is to make an upgradeable recipe, with maximum of 1/2/3 abilities stored (kinda hard to make with active abilities, but nice for passive ones.)

Anyway, T-up

[OhBob]

Sounds good but I think the 30% base damage from the wold commander may be a little high. Other than that its a fantastic Idea.

Andromeda's aura is 36%... You should realize that items kinda are the same as the hero's skills, at the cost of gold.

[Vanarchy]

To DanieLmc:

Sorry, I don't actually find the idea with upgrading suitable, that would make Guise more complicated while it has some complex features already. Plus more then one bonus is too imba IMO. Though thanks for your support! :)

[Svendetta]

Theres not many things items that grasp me as being super awesome. This is one of them, the previous was the upgrade to maelstrom introduced in dota.

I see this getting implented for its sheer uniqueness. It has a place in the game, isnt a silly gimicky item, is rather balanced (keeping effects after death could be thought on, though i wouldnt mind either way). People that would normally get this item normally get HoD while jungling. A reason to get midus for a 30% dmg buff, evasion or something of the sorts would be super cool.

The only problem i have with this item is it would be hard for noobs to understand. A buff tooltip would be the best

[Twine]

T-up for alternate. It's simpler.

[CheshireCat]

Cool idea, me like :)

[WSLaFleur]

I thought about it. There are 4 active spells on creeps atm:

Mass stun (2 secs) - from Minotaur
Mass slow (3 seconds, 150 damage) - from Catman leader
Tornado (channeling) - from Vulture
Ice shield (buffer) - from blue Ogre

Tornado is channeling and Guise is mostly for DPS characters, so channeling it instead of doing your job (killing ppl) would be weird. Ice Shield should be stolen as a passive (with numbers tweaked ofcourse). So only 2 options remain - mass slow and mass stun. Conviniently, both of the abilities have 100 manacost - same as Guise's activation cost, but it's difficult to say - is giving another one mass stun to Pestilence balanced (even for one charge)? Or giving it to Legio, or to Magebane who can blink into the middle of the crowd and use it. Well if people will reply that this is ok and that this change will make Guise better, I will add it to my suggestion.

Fair enough. It's going to be a powerful item one way or the other, considering those critical strike passives. We've just got to decide whether it's too powerful or not.

Unfortunately, that decision will, for the most part, determine this item's chances of being implemented, because the recipe price is a fickle adjustment. Too much lower and it becomes OP, too much higher and it becomes outclassed by better value items.

[Vanarchy]

Update

Due to new Neutral creeps added 2 more stealable passives.

[MrSnowman]

Like the combo but anything but if you drain the right creep its OP if you drain the wrong creep is UP. No unless the skill change.

[iDrop]

Great recipe, the only thing that needs work is its recharge time, and how long you are able to possess the skill, I don't like the idea that it stays on the user.

[Vanarchy]

To MrSnowman:

It is you who chooses what creep to possess. If you don't want to waste the cooldown on some creep who's passive you don't want, just clean the creep camp without usage of the Guise - by the time you craft it you won't spend more then 15 seconds to completely wipe it out unless creeps are stacked. And about strong passives, 30% to base damage as an Aura from the Dominated creep is ok, but 30% that works for self-only is OP?

[TURBORUS]

To MrSnowman:

It is you who chooses what creep to possess. If you don't want to waste the cooldown on some creep who's passive you don't want, just clean the creep camp without usage of the Guise - by the time you craft it you won't spend more then 15 seconds to completely wipe it out unless creeps are stacked. And about strong passives, 30% to base damage as an Aura from the Dominated creep is ok, but 30% that works for self-only is OP?

That 30% base damage can be easily shut down when it's on the creep and is in an extremely tiny aoe.

Giving 30% base damage to a hero that is completely passive, including the other possible crit and slow buffs is a bit ridiculous for an item that already has fairly nice stats for a carry. Bear in mind that most carries will have 100+ of their main stat late game (150+ usually), that bonus base damage would be giving them at least 30 damage that will scale off other items.

I feel that the ability on this item would be better suited as a hero ability (with the potential for actives too).

Just my two cents.

PS: Maybe make the life steal an aura, and have it as an alternative to abyssal skull?

[Vanarchy]

That 30% base damage can be easily shut down when it's on the creep and is in an extremely tiny aoe.

Uhm, this is the idea of this item - Whispering Helm (1850 gold) grants you the possibility to dominate a creep with this aura, Guise (4950 gold) grants you the possibility to keep this bonus safe. The drawback is that aura becomes a self-only passive, not affecting your allies.



Bear in mind that most carries will have 100+ of their main stat late game (150+ usually)

Keeper of the Forest has highest main-stat-gain in the game: + 3.6 str/level. Starting strength: 26. Plus 20 STR from the attributes skill. So we get 26 + 24*3.6 + 20 = 132 Strength at level 25. This is the maximum, other heroes got less. Where did you get "150+"? Bonus stats from items do not affect base damage, they are added as bonus damage, so they have nothing to do with this 30% aura.



that bonus base damage would be giving them at least 30 damage that will scale off other items.

Base damage does not include damage from items, this is why it is called "base". 30% from 120 average base damage (this is lategame, levels 18+) will give 40 damage. 60 average base damage (early-mid game) will give 20 damage. For an item that costs 5k gold this is not something high, especially considering the fact that 1200 gold recipe does not boost constant stats of merged items.

[Zoddy]

Friendly bump :P

[Vanarchy]

Friendly bump :P

Thanks! xD

[Vanarchy]

To the top.

[kamimage]

bump!!

[balsafresh]

This item sounds really awesome.

For alchemist bones, I personally use it on puppet master because of the attack speed it gives.

And yeah I only get whispering helm to get satanic.

But this item open tons of possibilities.

It's also obviously a carry item.

I think the numbers of the abilities should be tweaked, exept if the auras just because a self bonus.

Because otherwise it makes ophelia useless AND it would be ******* overpowered.

Other than that it's an awesome item I can't wait to see implemented, T-UP all the way.

Um... what? Ophelia gets two minos and a slow/aura creep. There's more than one choice for an aura buff. If she gets the wolf, you get crits. Where's the problem?

[frenzy_one]

My suggestion would be to skip the whole stealing their abilities thing. Have it work like a sacrifical stone but giving damage, crit, movespeed, aspd or a bit of each/some instead. Aka every transmute gives 1 charge, if you die you lose half your charges.

[H_Mantis]

Finally. A use for Alchemists'. T-up.

[Galneryus]

I REEEEEEALY agree with this suggestion, a very good item with many useful proprieties

[Duey]

My first impression was "man thats pretty OP to hand out free disable to heroes", then i saw 4950 and said, "ok where is the yes button?"

[pinkrockogre]

Dear Vanarchy,

Im not that of a forum troll really, but I found this post for item suggestions and I really liked it. I also thought there should be more to alchemist bones than just the 30% attack speed, as it will be come useless lategame.
Good work on thinking it through.

Thumps up for me aswell.

[Vanarchy]

Dear Vanarchy,

Im not that of a forum troll really, but I found this post for item suggestions and I really liked it. I also thought there should be more to alchemist bones than just the 30% attack speed, as it will be come useless lategame.
Good work on thinking it through.

Thumps up for me aswell.


Thank you. :)

[AbsoluteEvil]

Good item, seems balanced for it's cost.

[The_Hood]

Vagabond leader has a 3 health regeneration aura not 4.

[deadly_fox]

T up, really like this idea.

[Strills]

Great idea, but could as already stated be a little overpowered on some heroes. Maybe let the soul be released when you die? Or maybe you'll have your soul for a fixed amoun of time?

Also I think the item's stats should be slightly improved beacause there is no bonus statwise, the only bonus for buying the recipe is the ability, which is great.

Maybe make it;
8 Armor
25 Damage
20% Lifesteal
40 Attack speed

With this buff you could also raise the price of the recipe a little. Just my two cents.

[Vanarchy]

Vagabond leader has a 3 health regeneration aura not 4.

As you can see, some powerful passives are nerfed when you aquire them, on the other hand I buffed relatively weak passives to be on par with strong ones.




Maybe let the soul be released when you die?

It is intended to work like this already, you loose the stolen passive when you die:

Simple explanation: When you use this ability, 2 things happen:

Targeted creep is killed, gold earned from the kill is multiplied by 3 (same as via Transmuting).
If the creep had any passive ability, it is added to Guise of Possession. You retain stolen ability untill you replace it with the new one or untill you die.

[damican]

love it, but honestly doesnt need a recipe cost.

[Vanarchy]

love it, but honestly doesnt need a recipe cost.

Autocombining would make it too powerful. The ~5k total gold cost is essential IMO.

[kamimage]

T-up hope it makes it in!

[Vanarchy]

T-up hope it makes it in!

Many people hope so. :)

[kamimage]

Many people hope so. :)
i know but i wanted to bump you :D

[caulksmith]

Way to similar to the remake doom's devour got in dota for my taste.

[Vanarchy]

Way to similar to the remake doom's devour got in dota for my taste.

I came up with this idea more then 1.5 yeas ago. I am glad that similar mechanic finally made it into DotA.

[Saucery]

I like the idea but to be honest those two items together are so very expensive together that i personally wouldn't use it. On the types of heroes you'd get either of those on, you need to use your next gold on damage items or shrunken head so...

[Vanarchy]

I like the idea but to be honest those two items together are so very expensive together that i personally wouldn't use it. On the types of heroes you'd get either of those on, you need to use your next gold on damage items or shrunken head so...

Both of the components boost your farming capabilities, profit is not instant, but instant profits are rare in this world. -_-
I don't suggest getting Guise of Possession in games when enemies are pushing early and there is not much time for jungling, that's kinda obvious cause having Alch Bones as a component means the longer the game goes the bigger diffirence between those who have Alch Bones and those who don't.

P.S. I came up with a new idea - if you use Guise of Possession on a creep that doesn't have a passive ability, Guise becomes charged with this: "Grants bonus maximum health to the bearer equal to 15% of killed creep's maximum health". Same as other passive abilities, this passive gets replaced when you use the Guise next time. What do you think about this?

[SexyRanger_]

A Very cool weapon tough, but I don't see why it should be on the "morph" type of weapon, I think " Combative" will fit more because only the venomous one would only morph, and those passives are by far minimal compared to the other auras.

the rest is pretty balanced and usefull :3, would perfectly fit with ophelia at any point.

T-up!

[_Scars_]

T up

good idea

[logosloki]

This item has interesting pros and cons to it as well as a highish price.

I think though that instead of giving a hpx3 (check, not sure if this formula) gold for killing a creep with this the item should just give a flat gold bonus, so as not to cause people to shy away from hitting out the smaller creeps for their bonuses. (considering the wolf commander is worth quite a bit in gold compared to others...)

Also I think that if you use it on a neutral without an ability or an enemy/allied creep that it should provide a small health bonus in lieu of a passive.

[Vanarchy]

A Very cool weapon tough, but I don't see why it should be on the "morph" type of weapon, I think " Combative" will fit more because only the venomous one would only morph, and those passives are by far minimal compared to the other auras.

Well, probably you are right and Guise should be moved to the Combative shop. :)
Elder Parasite is in Combative, though Symbol of Rage is in Morph Attack shop.

[Pineapple]

im not really sure if u shoould be able to "upgrade" alchemists bones.. however this upgrade is really great.. but the other component.. i dont really think it belongs here.. the idea of taking the passives into the guise is awesome but please remove/replace whispering helmet at least.. then we can discuss wether or not alchemists needs an upgrade afterwards.

well done with concept.

[Vanarchy]

im not really sure if u shoould be able to "upgrade" alchemists bones.. however this upgrade is really great.. but the other component.. i dont really think it belongs here.. the idea of taking the passives into the guise is awesome but please remove/replace whispering helmet at least.. then we can discuss wether or not alchemists needs an upgrade afterwards.

well done with concept.

Abilities of both Alch. Bones and Whisp. Helmet are very similar in usage: both are meant to target neutral creeps, especially big ones. Both of these items improve your farming, I think they deserve to be merged in the item recipe.

[Pineapple]

Abilities of both Alch. Bones and Whisp. Helmet are very similar in usage: both are meant to target neutral creeps, especially big ones. Both of these items improve your farming, I think they deserve to be merged in the item recipe.

only one hero gets whisp helmet for its active ability (ophelia!)
everyone else gets it because they want lifesteal.

[Vanarchy]

only one hero gets whisp helmet for its active ability (ophelia!)
everyone else gets it because they want lifesteal.

I guess you are new to HoN and never heard of creep stacking. Nvm then, since it makes the conversation pointless.

[Rinsaku]

I agree with this concept.
Though alchemist bones are a beginning game item and are extremely useful if you use them correctly, I don't believe this is a beginning game item that if upgraded early on from a superfarm it would scale furiously. So +1 from me

p.s. I NEED A METAL HAMMER!

[Paklu]

You pay 1200 for recipe. Lets assume you transmute 6 creeps after you get this item losing 1200 gold because you lost the extra transmute gold. You would also have gained control of the aura creeps and got their auras/farmed with controlled creeps/stunned with controlled creeps etc... Only in case the +30% dmg wolf would have been killed you get any extra damage out of this and its +30% damage for the cost of 2500. And that is if you were to transmute only 6 creeps after obtaining this item. Thus as it stands the item is way too bad and if you would get the big wolfs crit too then it would be decent though you would have kind of no option when choosing a creep to possess.

[Vanarchy]

Update

Rebalanced most resulting passives.
Long time no see! Bump!

[VitaTimH]

If you attack six times after consuming Tempest's elementals you will clone self.
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt109/Kiwi_065/TrollFace-1.png

JK I like this idea, initially I was going to say the item was too cheap but I see you kind of rebalanced the abilities. I think the Ebula's is still too weak, the Wolf Commander is still too strong (this item would be so broken on Arachna). The rest are ok; Blue Ogre should also give +armor. Also, since the midsize Satyr has a Mana Burn, maybe giving it an on-attack mana burn could be nice.

Also, some effects I think would be good are:
Tempest's Elementals: +5 Magic Armor (generating an illusion when attacking six times would be cool but kind of broken)
Tundra's Shiver: +300 vision
Tundra's Coeurl: Slightly stronger Sporespitter slow
Balphagore's Minion: 5% slow per hit, stacks up to 30%

[GauntElakor]

Like the idea, a LOT.

But you need passives for ALL creeps this can be used on, including lane creeps.
Melee creep: Chance to block damage taken, something like HotBL?
Ranged creep: Increase range by 200 or something, give 200 range to melee heroes? If that is to complicated it can be increased attack speed.
Siege creeps: +50% damage to structures.

[Puppeteer]

Best item idea on these forums. Yes.

[AvengerO_o]

Like the idea, a LOT.

But you need passives for ALL creeps this can be used on, including lane creeps.
Melee creep: Chance to block damage taken, something like HotBL?
Ranged creep: Increase range by 200 or something, give 200 range to melee heroes? If that is to complicated it can be increased attack speed.
Siege creeps: +50% damage to structures.

I did not like your + range 200 idea.

What if you transmute a creep that doesn't have an ability (like a catapult) you get 4x gold, instead of 3x. + you keep the ability you already have. That way you don't have to search woods all the time, say for a wolf leader, just to get that +30% dmg aura.
Great idea on a item tho. One of the best i've seen. :madm: KUDOS

[MANTOWN]

I just Jizzed... this is basically giving you Doombringers Consume.... <3

[Skybound]

Why the hell hasn't this been implemented yet.

[FranticFrog]

Numbers need tweaking in my opinion, but leaving that to S2 I like the concept.
Thumbs up.

[Tryptophan]

I support this, but sporespitter would be OP.