Discussion of new/remade heroes

[CavemanDiary]

Hello everyone. I havent seen a discussion debating the likes and dislikes of the new and/or remade heroes so i'm making one.

Remakes:

Jereziah: Omni and kunkka in one? Yes sir. In my opinion, an awesome hero both capable of supporting, tanking and dealing DPS. Goes really well with bfury, heart, radi and skadi (the two slows stack)

Verdict: 9/10 banworthy

Hellbringer: Quiet mana intensive, but really powerful. More useful lategame than warlock, and at least as useful in teamfights. Lacks a heal. Tried him just a few times and i went bloodstone, but as he does not get many kills saving for guinsoo may not be a bad idea. Malphas is really badass.

8/10 a worthy pick

Treant: Haven't tried him, but from what i can tell, he is more offensive oriented than the old one, and not just a walking ulti.

?/10

Kraken; Seems way more interactive than tidehunter, but isnt his ulti a little underpowered? 6 seconds at level 1 seems like a really long wait.. granted i only played him once so too early for me to tell..

?/10

Demented shaman: I'm not sure if arcane hide is better than shallow grave. What do you guys think?

?/10

New heroes:

Madman: Way overpowered. No question asked. Needs more time in which he is visible when using stalk, with less than 2 seconds of reveal, plus another escape mechanism AND two steoroid abilities he is a great. Impossible to gank without severe effort and deals a ****load of dps.

10/10 autoban

Scout: Pubbers best friend. I think he is great, and he also has the potential to be used competitive due to his movability, scouting abilities and general DPS.

7.5/10 pickworthy

Nymphodora: Healer, nuker, dps'er, ganker. She's all of them. I recommend not going for much mana regen than bottle and aim for damage. Deso/treads seem to work wonders on her. Use homecoming stone back to heal, come back 10 seconds later with ulti. Skip grace and go stats instead. Gank with an ally with her ultimate for surprise buttsechs.

9/10 banworthy

Zephyr: I only tried this guy once and failed miserably. Advice and input needed

?/10

Arachna: Not too impressed by her. She's a great orb walker but i've found her to be somewhat lacking in dps and her ultimate is rather mediocre but thats just my experience after a few games with her.

6/10 situational pick

Dark Lady: Truly scary if farmed well, unfortunately i find her to have a hard time doing just that as she's squishy, and really mana intensive. Plus long cooldown on her skills.

6/10 situational pick

Puppet: Only tried him once, he seemed viable but did not impress me. His attack enhancer is just a weak version of jerezias, his berserk seem too situational. His disable is great however.

?/10

Predator: Half naix, half... something else. Magic immunity, a leap with a slow, two steoroids plus an amazing jungler at 6. Seems viable at first glance.

7/10 pick worthy

Feel free to discuss.

[WaRDeN]

Good evaluations, agree with almost everything. However, I believe scout is madman-level imbalanced, not just in pubs, and zephyr is god awful.

[Idejder]

Moved to the balance discussion forum

[Sunforger]

Jereziah - you are completely correct. I'd make his 1st skill to heal/damage for 300.
Hellbringer - agreed. The hero is balanced. Does purge kill infernal here?
Treant - tried, it is still a walking ulti and invis.
Kraken - much more skill intensive than Tide. I agree that time on ulti can be lowered by 1 second.
Demented Shaman - feels underpowered for me, definitely needs another ultimate. Other skills are fine.
Madman - unstoppable when paired with a good support (:cough: Jereziah :cough:), needs his windwalk changed to some useless skill.
Scout - good hero, pretty balanced (for competitive play ofc).
Arachna - feels a bit underpowered and very boring. Ultimate should be buffed/reworked.
Puppet Master - also feels a bit underpowered for me, because he is pure support.
Predator - better than Naix.

[Glorify1]

Madman: Way overpowered. No question asked. Needs more time in which he is visible when using stalk, with less than 2 seconds of reveal, plus another escape mechanism AND two steoroid abilities he is a great. Impossible to gank without severe effort and deals a ****load of dps.

10/10 autoban

5/10


Jereziah: Omni and kunkka in one? Yes sir. In my opinion, an awesome hero both capable of supporting, tanking and dealing DPS. Goes really well with bfury, heart, radi and skadi (the two slows stack)

Verdict: 9/10 banworthy

10/10


Kraken; Seems way more interactive than tidehunter, but isnt his ulti a little underpowered? 6 seconds at level 1 seems like a really long wait.. granted i only played him once so too early for me to tell..

?/10

10/10


Dark Lady: Truly scary if farmed well, unfortunately i find her to have a hard time doing just that as she's squishy, and really mana intensive. Plus long cooldown on her skills.

6/10 situational pick

10/10


Puppet: Only tried him once, he seemed viable but did not impress me. His attack enhancer is just a weak version of jerezias, his berserk seem too situational. His disable is great however.

?/10
9/10


Demented shaman: I'm not sure if arcane hide is better than shallow grave. What do you guys think?

?/10

10/10 - Stun greatly improved, heal is far better, ult has a lower cooldown

Voodoo Jester - Stun greatly improved, does +1 bounces and it stuns far more effectively. Maledict seems bigger, only downside is his LOCK heal which is useless on him.

10/10

[CavemanDiary]

Thanks for the input so far, nice to see people agree and disagree, i wish glorify would argue for his points as he is clearly a good player.

[Aegd]

5/10

Voodoo Jester - Stun greatly improved, does +1 bounces and it stuns far more effectively. Maledict seems bigger, only downside is his LOCK heal which is useless on him.

10/10

Sorry but vodoo heal + maledict and an attack or two is pretty much instant death for any hero around lv 7-12.

Just skill vodoo heal and maledict until lv 8 and try it out.

It's very powerful early / mid game

[FuzzyWuzzy]

What you should keep in mind is that the heavy disablers and supporters in HoN are very limited. This means that they should be picked first. The difference between Madman, Predator, Scout, etc, in terms of carry will be little.

Thus first preferences go to:

Behemoth, Pollywog Priest, Voodoo Jester, Puppet Master, Hellbringer

As someone above mentioned, Jereziah, Predator, Dark Lady, and Demented Shaman will also be very high on the pick list.

[CavemanDiary]

thank you i think you're right.. :)

[Tyrando]

Demented Shaman is teh win! and i prefer Arcane Hide over Shallow Grave, as it can be used before a fight breaks out and still last after it, aswell as useful for tanking tower hits.

[Spaztastik]

Dark Lady is from DotA?

[Completeli]

Jereziah - I disagree with banworthy. Strong no doubt. I rate him lower than the original omni though, just because of the quirkyness of having to run behind someone and melee them to slow instead of just being near. Add in trying to do it with teammates and getting blocked by friendly heros.

Hellbringer - I agree but I think minus the heal he went from a great babysitter to a halfass pusher.

Treant - 3/10 from me. the new dmg atk is cool but...he lived and died by his armor and regen skill. without it he doesnt live long enough to refresh his ulti.

Kraken - I think hes a good stand in for tide, but without a stun he needs to have either a longer duration on his slow or a shorter cooldown. You slow get 2 hits before its off, you dash get 1 more hit and then they are gone.

Demented Shaman - I'm still torn. shallow grave took quick reflexes or an obvious focus fire target on your team. The new spell could turn out better.

Madman - I think he needs tuning. Shukuchi made weaver annoying to kill, but a good silence and he was food. but prior to all that, he was just annoying never really a concern dps wise. Madman is, and think thats too much. wards and gem dont even counter him, he will max speed run from you, or just turn around and kill you and keep farming.

scout - too many invis units for my liking. every game there is at least 2. and having to worry about wards in the early game phase is sooo annoying. Think his ulti is too much for him, it gives you almost no chance unless youre a str hero. Fog cancelling his ulti is a step in the right way tho.

Puppet - his splash is nearly useless. swiftblade of legionaire make great use of his disables but he cant harass worth ****. and his ulti has almost a 3min cooldown or something. Switch the splash for a straight up nuke with a 10s cooldown.

Predator - 10/10 a few key items and he will make your life hell. awesome initiator cuz of anti magic. a leap with a slow, life leech. Its like he is meant to be the best carry. counters nukers, tanks, and people with escape mechs. dunno what else to say.

[Omegazero]

Jereziah - I don't think he's banworthy, his degen aura was alot better then AoE cleave imo. The only thing he has better is a higher MS with the shield adding MS now.

Hellbringer - I find him rather useless now, his roll as a babysitter completely died and even if he is stronger end game in CW and stuff you wouldn't want him as a carry =.=', + his malphas is doing physical damage not chaos damage but I guess that's just not implimented yet.

Treant - I don't like new trent, sure he's easier to farm with but losing living armor means he can't tower hug as much. Makes him worse as a support and less valuable for the team.

Kraken - Different....in a way it's not bad but you just can't treat him like old tide anymore. Old tides ravage caused great disruption while pushing or ganking and the area was HUGE, I don't think the drag is that bad as it still causes disruption while initiating but the area seems too small to be compared to old tides ulti.
Demented shaman - I prefered shallow grave, but then again I also thought of that skill as quite imbalanced XD, I guess this is a more balanced version.

Madman - He could use working, passive crit is too high for a weaver/troll combination, nerf his str gain and his slow on barrel roll, this will force people to go BKB/S&Y.

Scout - I actully like new BH/sniper, sniper lacked any survivability and BH couldn't do much in a group fight besides tag a target and then dps him down, + the ward at level 1 makes him great help if your team has a bottle player.

Puppet - I find him great for shutting down the tank, cast his string thing (no idea what it's called) on a axe which blinked him and then he's basically useless for 5-6 seconds in the fight.

Predator - Needs a nerf....badly, he's naix with a blink >_> as soon as BKB is up on him he's near unkillable if you play him right =.='.

Dark lady - The ulti duration lasts too long imo, 14 seconds at level 6. Excelent ganking hero and great at shutting down one person but her mana costs seem too high....but then again all her abilities all seem to good, I guess a nerf would be nice but her int gain needs some work if her abilities are nerfed down.

Nymphodora - I actully didn't find this hero that great because of her slow animation, the cast time on both the seed and stun seem a bit too long + she has really low str gain. Her int gain is stupidly high and needs to be tuned down, grace seems like a ability that's not worth leveling pass level 1. Her ulti is nice and her stun increase on her ats/ms makes her a very effective battle unit but due to cast animation and low str gain it's not worth it imo.

[Jaalii]

Madman - Imbalance, by far. He is comparable to the original naix(Who was completely busted) Giving weavers stealth to a melee hero that has a nuking slow and high crit chance is retarded. TBQH, any hero that can chase you and do the same amount of dmg as if he was standing next to you is broken.

Dark Lady - Her mana intensive abilities is ridiculous. On top of that her dark blades do not last long enough. (6 sec at max level :S) The charge she has I think needs to be changed to a % gain per attack, not a % deduction per attack, this would make her more of a strategic hero and a fun hero to play.

Scout - People want to ban him because of everyone abusing the codex/snipe combo in pub games. He actually isn't that overpowered when played the right way. His abilities make him and excellent addition to any compeditive team.

Puppetmaster -This guys is amazing. His int gain is off the charts. His 2 puppet skills can effectively disable a hero for 8 seconds, and his ultimate can make people kill them selves in combonation with the crazed effect. So much fun to play. Hes like Lion with Storms attack orb and a new, very inventive ultimate.

Predator - amazing jungler, he's absolutely amazing when played well.

Enigma(elemental dude) - His new elementals make him one of the best laning heroes in the game. The fact you can have 9 of them up at a time along with his stun and ultimate is pretty GG.

[Colcut]

Soon as they fix madman, itl be a lot closer.
Scout isnt Op, he is just a last hitter. The sooner people learn to buy stealth detection the quicker that debate will end. <-- Yes he needs speed boost when stealthed... for above reason.
Puppets nice, Imo very closely balanced with pollywog.
Predator <-- Great when played well, not good at start. im not sure about what changes to make. maybe adjusting leap early game. but his abilities are nice.

Drop madmans stealth, he doesnt need any extra movement speed with his ultimate. He has a limited teleport < therefore he should have no extra movement speed.
He has a slow on his teleport. he does not need any extra movement speed. He has crit chance (i assume crit changes dont stack not tested) making him good melee.
The other option is leave his normal skills and nerf his ultimate. His ultimate essentially makes him completely op. Maybe rework it so he takes 25% extra damage on use of his ultimate

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

I think people are undervaluing hellbringer. Even though he lost heal other, his self-healing is off the charts. Even at level 1 his heal can easily net you like 400 hp for 85 mana (particularly if you deny back to your tower). Combined with his dot, it's very easy for him to tank enemy hero + creeps without losing health.

He's VERY substantially different from warlock, and imo better. The self-heal ability has a lot of synergies (i.e., using it and then aoe (ie malphas) on a mass can instaheal you near full even at high levels), and basically allows him to be a very durable/tankish support hero... It really shines if you pick an aoe heavy team, ie behemoth, pyro, nymph, leshrac, etc.

The slow is quite valuable.

Anyway I am thinking of writing up a hellbringer guide. It's a nice hero to play, particularly early, since you don't need any hp regen... I like to get a sobi + 5 trinkets, build the sobi into whichever staff, to 1 bracer + phase and either go hellbringer (usually hellbringer) or refresher. Then switch over to defensive efficiency items shiva (or just the armor), possibly HOD (or just the robe). You can finish with shieldbreaker, or, go shieldbreaker earlier if you are not needed in a tank role as much.



Regarding zephyr, he is an int tank that farms very easily. 30% melee evasion and 30% ranged reflection, a self-heal, and long range blink (that can interrupt channeling w/push, or push fleeing enemies backwards into a body block). He doesn't really require mana regen items, since his heal also refills his mana. If you farm very well, you get radiance first, if not, then bracers and heart + hod into shiva.

Zephyr makes tons of money, so very easily. ... Reflecting tower shots makes him a very strong pusher. Without cyclones (or radiance) he's weak, but with them he's very dynamic. If you have cyclones, try baiting melee into following you "for the kill"... most of them will not notice that you are still doing almost full damage to them, since they are more likely to be hit by cyclones while following than even while standing next to you... then simply eat the cyclones, and dash behind for the kill. Body blocking with zephyr is downright lethal...

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Meh, people should stop complaining about Madman...

I have played almost every single one of my games against Madman, some players were decent, some not, but I've lost my only game where there was no Madman (just some OP **** with Repelled Antimage, Jereziah + Veno + Zeus)

Currently Range heroes control their lanes sooooo easily, it's not even funny.

[Omegazero]

Currently Range heroes control their lanes sooooo easily, it's not even funny.

Madman shouldn't be solo lanning, if he does they he fails >_>

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Who said Madman is solo?! :D

And a good nuker like Defiler, Thunderbringer, or Soulstealer can control Madman + 1 range hero very easily.

[Glorify1]

Sorry but vodoo heal + maledict and an attack or two is pretty much instant death for any hero around lv 7-12. The time you get it, 10/12/13/14 it's already just a waste of skill slots. His main damage comes from his ult at this point, and other teammates. Stats are far better.


Thanks for the input so far, nice to see people agree and disagree, i wish glorify would argue for his points as he is clearly a good player. That's a lot of points to argue, if you have anything more specific you'd like me to clear up I'd explain my views on it.


Predator - Needs a nerf....badly, he's naix with a blink >_> as soon as BKB is up on him he's near unkillable if you play him right =.='.He's a very weak version of naix. Lacks the early game power, Naix had arguably the BEST level 1 skill in the game, Dusa's purge + lifesteal built in. Also, you had to kill a good naix twice, and that said it's no easy task. The guy is a monster, you think you have him killed and he walks up and pumps damage, you can't get away due to OW, and he's just regening life like a beast.


Meh, people should stop complaining about Madman...

I have played almost every single one of my games against Madman, some players were decent, some not, but I've lost my only game where there was no Madman (just some OP **** with Repelled Antimage, Jereziah + Veno + Zeus)

Currently Range heroes control their lanes sooooo easily, it's not even funny. I agree with your first statement, but why bring ANTIMAGE into the mix? Seriously, one of the worst agi carries in the game, in fact, I think he IS the worst. Repel is rather useless anyways, he's rather slippery, and hard to lock down in the first place. Better placed on either Jereziah himself or some channeler you have in the team.

Anyways, there's a lot of discussion about madman going around, and recently I played in a game of HoN League with some of the better players playing in the beta. As expected, they chose madman as a carry and I chose pestilence(my personal opinion on Pest is he's the best carry currently in the game). There's some sigs going around, mainly on Euphoria, with me stating Pest>Madman, and as expected we did end up winning the game. Proving the point that madman is bad.


SoulstealerThis is one of the stronger solo heroes I definately wouldn't want to lane against a madman. It's just tedious, he has very low base hitpoints and his spells require decent timing. But it's hard to time and aim skills when madman can move around at max movespeed. Also, madman can easily out control the runes in this situation, and if Soulstealer get's caught in the river it's pretty much over.


Puppets nice, Imo very closely balanced with pollywog.

Puppet moves faster, better animation and projective speed, and one of the highest base damages as the game progresses into levels 3-5 because of whiplash. His skills are far superior, and his ult can easily burst 1k damage down in a moment. Probably one of the strongest lanes in the game right now is Puppet/jereziah, after level 5 very few lanes can even stand up to a tower dive from the pair. At 6/7, you can show, run up and ult, hold, and heal for a HUGE burst of damage from the heal damaging both the enemy and the puppet. It's just an obscene amount of utility and lane control.

[FiNGERS]

Anyways, there's a lot of discussion about madman going around, and recently I played in a game of HoN League with some of the better players playing in the beta. As expected, they chose madman as a carry and I chose pestilence(my personal opinion on Pest is he's the best carry currently in the game). There's some sigs going around, mainly on Euphoria, with me stating Pest>Madman, and as expected we did end up winning the game. Proving the point that madman is bad.

This does not prove anything, unless you are implying that since a Madman lost to YOU, they MUST be bad. This is the one point you ignored. Madman will be rebalanced, you can count on it.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

IMO Soulstealer is even better than Dota's equivalent of SF.

In Dota you have incredible soloers like Viper, Necro, Kunkha, etc, which made even skilled SF players go 0-X.

In HoN, a solo mid Soulstealer can be stopped only by Defiler or Hellbringer to a certain extent and certainly not by Thunderbringer.

[Glorify1]

This does not prove anything, unless you are implying that since a Madman lost to YOU, they MUST be bad. This is the one point you ignored. Madman will be rebalanced, you can count on it.Proves madman isn't imbalanced, not by a long shot. He did nothing late game but snare, and far more heroes can do this. The only thing he achieves is serious disruption of a mid solo, who requires all of the runes, but it really made no difference as his orchid did nothing. Madman wasn't even able to dps me out late game, he'd silence and hit on me without being disabled and he'd do less damage than my lifesteal if the person with Vlads was standing near me. Not to mention, he'd die in 8-10 hits, which happen rather quick lategame.

Sure, it's only one game, but it was an EVEN game all the way up until LATE GAME where they couldn't COMPETE because they didn't have a good CARRY.


In HoN, a solo mid Soulstealer can be stopped only by Defiler or Hellbringer to a certain extent and certainly not by Thunderbringer.Soulstealer depends heavily on bottled runes to survive, that being said, you control the runes you kill him. Madman is good at controlling the runes, but I mean, as stated above his lategame is terrible.


This does not prove anything
If two even, high skilled teams, one running madman and the other pestilence doesn't prove that madman is inferior as a carry. Go on, tell me what will?

[Whitebushid1]

Hello everyone. I havent seen a discussion debating the likes and dislikes of the new and/or remade heroes so i'm making one.

Remakes:

Kraken; Seems way more interactive than tidehunter, but isnt his ulti a little underpowered? 6 seconds at level 1 seems like a really long wait.. granted i only played him once so too early for me to tell..

?/10

To be honest, I wish his ult had that long of a wind up at 3 as well. Easier to get set ups down.


New heroes:

Zephyr: I only tried this guy once and failed miserably. Advice and input needed

?/10

I find he's really a great tank. He's pretty weak til at the very least level 7 where his cyclones last a while, but once he's got wind shield maxed and some tank gear(sacrificial heart/behemoth's heart) he can just hold position and let a ranged agi(soulstealer/arachna) kill themselves from their attacks.



Puppet: Only tried him once, he seemed viable but did not impress me. His attack enhancer is just a weak version of jerezias, his berserk seem too situational. His disable is great however.

?/10

By berserk do you mean the crazed spell? If so it's a really amazing spell(4s silence).

[Sunforger]

Glorify (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=852)
Could you please provide some insight to using Pestilence as a carry? I don't get it.
What items and support heroes Pestilence needs?

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Glorify (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=852)
Could you please provide some insight to using Pestilence as a carry? I don't get it.
What items and support heroes Pestilence needs?

Armlet (Insanitarius) for cheap +60 damage, 25% ias and hp
BKB (Shrunken Head), so you can actually DPS in fights
Desolator (Shieldbreaker), stacks nicely with your -armor ultimate
Some form of lifeleech, for example MoM (Elder Parasite) is very nice with Bash.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

Electrician destroys pestilence... the purge is short enough cd to negate the swarm spam, and it can also remove the +40% movement speed buff, replacing it with the -60 or whatever purge debuff. Without mobility or particularly his ult, he's just a shitty basher.