"Step in" to replace disconnected players

[Gogul]

I didn't search for this because I'm lazy, if I stole someone else's idea, I'm sorry.

Mentors or spectators should be able to "Step in" and play for the team of the player they are mentoring/spectating if someone has disconnected.

Optional: Players can "Step in" for a team even if they are not mentoring/spectating someone in the game by using the "Step in" button on a person of the team who has a disconnected player.

- whole team of the disconnected player must vote yes for the other guy to step in.
- disconnected timer is not stopped; if the disconnected player returns, the guy who stepped in is kicked out of his spot; when the timer reaches zero, the disconnected player loses his right to come back; after that, if the replacement disconnects, the hero and the spot is instantly removed (can change it to max 1 min to reconnect or find another replacement).
- for the disconnected player the stats for the game will be the same as a regular disconnect.
- the replacement doesn't receive any stats for the game.
- any original player (not replacements) of the replacement's team can kick him without any vote from the other teammates.
- the actions of the replacement aren't reportable via RAP.
- the replacement doesn't have access to all chat (to prevent any verbal abuse because you can't report him).
- the replacement has to be in the disconnected player range (+/-69 mmr).
*- "Step in" only works if the disconnect timer is less than 2 minutes. (please comment on this, I'm not sure about it, was suggested by a friend to prevent any abuses like : 4+1 team, the random gets disconnected and the other 4 accepts a replacement just to feed with the disconnected player; because no one can be reported for it)
**- the replacement can't sell, buy, drop items and can't use skill points until the disconnected player loses his right to come back (d/c timer expires or d/c player joins another game).

Feel free to reply, any suggestions are most welcomed.
Please vote the idea, the details can be modified.

*not sure if I should keep this or not
**EDIT

[BoDy]

I like the ideea, +1

[NormanCrypt]

Great idea! I agree!

[IsilduR]

+1 for Gogul:)

[londoahv]

+1 from me as before, however 1 question did arise for me again. If there are 2 disconnected players on a team (say 2 mates on same network and their net drops) and the remaining 3 still wish to continue, how would it be determined who the new player will step in for? Would it be who got disconnected first or would there be a choice who to step in for?

[Gogul]

I already had in mind that the one who steps in chooses the disconnected player. Something similar to when you kick a player for AFK (a button appears in the stats window).

I did not thought about when a player steps in while not currently spectating/mentoring but has a friend/clanmate in the game because that was optional:

Optional: Players can "Step in" for a team even if they are not mentoring/spectating someone in the game by using the "Step in" button on a person of the team who has a disconnected player.

[The_Gobber]

Good idea thumps up from me ;)

[T0x]

Gonna vote up but I strongly recommend that the replacement player be reportable via RAP.
There is seemingly no logical reason as to why they should be exempt from being punished should they decide to join and start breaking rules. Simply prohibiting them from all-chat would by no means stop them from griefing, trolling, abusing team mates or in any other way breaking rules/making the game unpleasant.

[Gogul]

Gonna vote up but I strongly recommend that the replacement player be reportable via RAP.
There is seemingly no logical reason as to why they should be exempt from being punished should they decide to join and start breaking rules. Simply prohibiting them from all-chat would by no means stop them from griefing, trolling, abusing team mates or in any other way breaking rules/making the game unpleasant.
that's why i said:

- any original player (not replacements) of the replacement's team can kick him without any vote from the other teammates.

[T0x]

Well that may make it easier to remove them if they become problematic...
BUT, in a normal kick situation, the kicked player can still be reported for their wrong-doings, correct?
Being a replacement player should not mean a free pass to break the rules, even if it does mean you can be kicked instantly.

On a side note, what if one of the non-replacement teammates decides to abuse the instant kick function by kicking the replacement for absolutely no reason? The kicker can be reported after the game, sure... but it might be good to think of measures to avoid this scenario also.

(Please keep in mind that I do very much support the step-in idea, there's just a few holes that need to be filled in)

[Gogul]

1. Making the replacement report-able may be harder to achieve, but if S2 can do it I have no problem with it, I was just trying to simplify things.

2. Why would the kicker be reported after the game? We don't have any rules against kicking at the moment.

3. Adding new info:
- the replacement can't sell, buy, drop items and can't use skill points until the disconnected player loses his right to come back (d/c timer expires or d/c player joins another game).

[T0x]

1. Making the replacement report-able may be harder to achieve, but if S2 can do it I have no problem with it, I was just trying to simplify things.

2. Why would the kicker be reported after the game? We don't have any rules against kicking at the moment.

3. Adding new info:
- the replacement can't sell, buy, drop items and can't use skill points until the disconnected player loses his right to come back (d/c timer expires or d/c player joins another game).

1) Ah fair enough, that's true indeed. I can't say I know enough about scripting and the like to offer any suggestions on how to do it unfortunately.

2) Really? then that's a whole other issue that should probably be addressed... I see a lot of abuse of the vote-kick system (even though they don't get passed very often at all, a lot of people vote to kick for trivial and selfish reasons)

3) Agreed, sounds fair to me. :)

[GinNoSekai]

its a good idea GM and it sounds a really fair idea especially the +/- 69 MMR part, replacement able to control the hero after the original player disconnects. This is to keep the game balanced as a 5v5 or 3v3 always instead of being one-sided.

However, everyone must know that....

1) If you had a noob earlier and later disconnect from the game, but you get a pro player as a replacement, then that's great!
2) But what if you had a pro player earlier and later get a feeder as a replacement.....then you all will be cursing the replacement system for allowing this kind of thing.

I know that there is the internal team voting where all of them must agree about the replacement, however....
its still a double edge sword in my opinion. but if the community is good with it, then i will follow the flow^^.

Sorry GM but I am against the idea of replacement. If there is a leaver in the team, then I guess its just tough luck and we have to fight harder with the remaining guyz, but I can suggest that if HoN can implement a system of just the "vote for kick for AFK people" which is done with only the consent of the team for a player that disconnects, its good to keep the balance on as a player leave, the remaining players will get extra gold(the vote for kick a disconnect can only be done after 2 mins out of 5 mins of the remainder time).

Just my opinion^^ no offense GM. I still liked the idea but I don't want the community to start cursing on it for letting noob players for replacement.


EDIT: However, this system will be EXCELLENT for tournaments and real competitive play. Like clan wars.

[Gogul]

why don't you guys read before you post :)

again:
- any original player (not replacements) of the replacement's team can kick him without any vote from the other teammates.

that means if anyone from the team doesn't want the replacement, they can kick him at any time, NO VOTING REQUIRED

[King_Babar]

Low skilled player request high level friend spectate his match, low skilled player chooses mid and intentionally disconnects, high skilled player achieves huge early game advantage for friend against lower skilled opponent, low skilled player rejoins game with the large advantage

You cant prove he disconnected on purpose
You cant force the step-in player to play badly to match the opponents


I can see this system being widely abused

[GinNoSekai]

why don't you guys read before you post :)

again:

that means if anyone from the team doesn't want the replacement, they can kick him at any time, NO VOTING REQUIRED

and one more thing from above:
- the replacement doesn't receive any stats for the game.


Unfortunately, then it is altogether very harsh. Then I wonder which spec or mentor wishes to step in and get kicked out of nowhere from just one person who dislike him and also having his states not recorded. its not fun at all for the replacement guy unless he wishes just to become a slave being used for the team :P Well its different case if the spec/mentor happens to be a friend then he will consider to help.

You need to figure out a benefit return for the replacement, then he only has the will to fight for the team.

[Gogul]

Low skilled player request high level friend spectate his match, low skilled player chooses mid and intentionally disconnects, high skilled player achieves huge early game advantage for friend against lower skilled opponent, low skilled player rejoins game with the large advantage

You cant prove he disconnected on purpose
You cant force the step-in player to play badly to match the opponents


I can see this system being widely abused

- the replacement has to be in the disconnected player range (+/-69 mmr).
*- "Step in" only works if the disconnect timer is less than 2 minutes.

When does 3 minutes of no activity in early game considered an advantage that can be abused ?
I've set 69 mmr range as a reference, that can be adjusted.

Again ... please read before you post.



You need to figure out a benefit return for the replacement, then he only has the will to fight for the team.

I think this would be used to help friends, for me that is rewarding enough.
They don't get any benefits if they spectate or mentor a player, why should they get any benefits for helping out from time to time?

[riddie]

READ FIRST
(My comments make little sense if you don't. Sry bro :p )

I have only one change. I think this should be used for all games, public and matchmaking, not tournament mode only. It's on how the slot should be filled:

Every player on the disconnected players team should be allowed to invite a friend/clanmate to fill that slot, if that friend's MMR is within the acceptable limits.
When queueing, instead of waiting for the Match Making System to find you a completely new game, you should be alerted that a slot is/has become available in a live game (again, only if your MMR is within the acceptable limits for that game). Of course, you must also be informed of the following things: That you cant lose MMR, how much MMR you will gain if you win, how long the game has been running and also a short summary about the course of the game (e.g. Legion/Hellbourne progress bar, like in spectator mode).
When browsing public games, you should have a checkbox to search for running games where someone left and where you are allowed to step in.
First in time, first in line.



I didn't search for this because I'm lazy, if I stole someone else's idea, I'm sorry.

Mentors or spectators should be able to "Step in" and play for the team of the player they are mentoring/spectating if someone has disconnected.

Optional: Players can "Step in" for a team even if they are not mentoring/spectating someone in the game by using the "Step in" button on a person of the team who has a disconnected player.

- whole team of the disconnected player must vote yes for the other guy to step in. Can lead to trolling, player waiting for friend to connnect, denies everyone else to step in etc. I would rather like to have a single vote to open the slot of the disconnected player with no control over who will fill this slot. The vote must only be enabled after the disconnect timer runs out.
- disconnected timer is not stopped; if the disconnected player returns, the guy who stepped in is kicked out of his spot; when the timer reaches zero, the disconnected player loses his right to come back; If you auto-kick a "step-in" when the original player reconnects, you waste the step-ins time, punishing him for trying to help you out. You cant do that. after that, if the replacement disconnects, the hero and the spot is instantly removed (can change it to max 1 min to reconnect or find another replacement).Decreased reconnect timer is good, the team cant wait forever to fill the slot again. Optional vote to instantly open the slot again (if the replacement disconnects too) would be preferable.
- for the disconnected player the stats for the game will be the same as a regular disconnect. Approved http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/tongue.png
- the replacement doesn't receive any stats for the game. Cant have that. There must be some kind of stats incentive for the replacement. If they win, he should gain the MMR the original player would have gained. If they lose, he does not lose MMR, but the original player does.
- any original player (not replacements) of the replacement's team can kick him without any vote from the other teammates.Cant have that also. You cant punish a Samaritan by exposing him/her to trolling. Team-only kick vote should be sufficient.
- the actions of the replacement aren't reportable via RAP. So the replacement is absolved from everything that violates the Terms of Service because no one can report him? I dont think so.
- the replacement doesn't have access to all chat (to prevent any verbal abuse because you can't report him). See above.
- the replacement has to be in the disconnected player range (+/-69 mmr). Like it!
*- "Step in" only works if the disconnect timer is less than 2 minutes. (please comment on this, I'm not sure about it, was suggested by a friend to prevent any abuses like : 4+1 team, the random gets disconnected and the other 4 accepts a replacement just to feed with the disconnected player; because no one can be reported for it)
**- the replacement can't sell, buy, drop items and can't use skill points until the disconnected player loses his right to come back (d/c timer expires or d/c player joins another game). Already answered above.

Feel free to reply, any suggestions are most welcomed.
Please vote the idea, the details can be modified.

*not sure if I should keep this or not
**EDIT



All in all I think that this is a very good suggestion and I would very much like to see it implemented soon. Yes, I understand that this idea would require more than a little interface work and probably some of the devs that are currently working on future S2 titles to move back to HoN. But to make my point clear, I play since beta, and the biggest thing about HoN for me has always been that the HoN devs can work on the game's core itself. They already added features like Game Reconnection, Stats Tracking, Leaver Protection etc. so I figured when you are already able to reconnect to a game, replacing a leaver/disconnected player should be the next logical step.

[Gogul]

Can lead to trolling, player waiting for friend to connnect, denies everyone else to step in etc.
I don't see how that can happen, this function will most likely be used by players who are mentoring/spectating. No one just sits in chat, waiting for something to happen, online players are: playing, mentoring/spectating or just AFK. There is that 2-4% who joins HoN to chat, but they are a minority. The chances of a player just finishing a game or just logging in when your teammate just disconnected is low.


I would rather like to have a single vote to open the slot of the disconnected player with no control over who will fill this slot. The vote must only be enabled after the disconnect timer runs out.
When the disconnect timer runs out usually the player and his hero is removed from the game. Keeping that hero with items on it in the game only to wait for someone to take his place is not a good idea.


If you auto-kick a "step-in" when the original player reconnects, you waste the step-ins time, punishing him for trying to help you out. You cant do that.
If a player has problems and needs to disconnect or times out, I don't see why he would lose his slot, 5 mins is fair to wait for him to get back. Is it bad to have someone help in the meantime?


Decreased reconnect timer is good, the team cant wait forever to fill the slot again. Optional vote to instantly open the slot again (if the replacement disconnects too) would be preferable.
Read above why I am against the idea of opened slots.


Cant have that. There must be some kind of stats incentive for the replacement. If they win, he should gain the MMR the original player would have gained. If they lose, he does not lose MMR, but the original player does.
I'm still thinking about this, had it in my mind for a while.


Cant have that also. You cant punish a Samaritan by exposing him/her to trolling. Team-only kick vote should be sufficient.
This is not a punishment, I believe it's the right way to do it, but it should be revised if the previous idea with the MMR is implemented.


So the replacement is absolved from everything that violates the Terms of Service because no one can report him? I dont think so.
How much damage can he do when you have the instant kick vote from any team member, at any time. If this idea is implemented and it's a success, S2 should be able to easily modify it so that the player who steps-in can be reported.

Your addition on how slots should be filled, especially the 2nd idea changes everything. It's a lot of work, but it may be worth the trouble. I am not trying to get the perfect combination, but an easy and simple solution to save some unlucky games.

Thank you for your feedback.

[GinNoSekai]

Thanks for the reply GM. Anyway, I follow the flow of the game if they implement this^^.

[RunninDaGame]

This would be a very bad idea simply because it would lead to an unbalance matchup regardless... Here's an example... Lets suppose that your a 1300 player and well you get a 1700+ player to spectate you... Now, that 1700 player joins when the 1300 player leaves and this = game changes simply because the skill level is completely different. This would be no different than smurfing... Also, the builds you make aren't the same I might make because again... Skill level is involved and everyone has different play styles

[Gogul]

This would be a very bad idea simply because it would lead to an unbalance matchup regardless... Here's an example... Lets suppose that your a 1300 player and well you get a 1700+ player to spectate you... Now, that 1700 player joins when the 1300 player leaves and this = game changes simply because the skill level is completely different. This would be no different than smurfing... Also, the builds you make aren't the same I might make because again... Skill level is involved and everyone has different play styles

Why bother posting when you clearly didn't read anything that I wrote.


- the replacement has to be in the disconnected player range (+/-69 mmr).

Now tell me, how can a 1700+ player substitute a 1300 one?

[NubbyMcNub]

Only problem I see with this is that so few games have spectators and mentors at the same MMR, that it's probably not worth programming in. Otherwise it looks well thought out.

I posted a similar suggestion eons ago where Verified players could choose to queue for a small number of disconnected games per day.

I don't know about 1600+ but leavers below that level leave because of feeders or bad starts. If 80% of disconnect slots are for games that people want to leave, how do you entice replacements to come in and play (not AFK in pool)?

I think you have to give only 1 coin for a loss, but something like 30 coins for a win.

The alternate option is to show game stats including leaver hero and allow player 10s to make a decision. Then the winning coins don't have to be so high.

[sefan]

Will both players (replacement and leaver) grind/lose mmr?

If yes, what aboute smurfs?
The new way to boost players. A smurf join a game and leave when it is aboute 5 min left. The i jump in as the hero he have playde and win the game.

And will the hero still be removed from the game if noone joins during the 5 min?

[Gogul]

Will both players (replacement and leaver) grind/lose mmr?

If yes, what aboute smurfs?
The new way to boost players. A smurf join a game and leave when it is aboute 5 min left. The i jump in as the hero he have playde and win the game.

And will the hero still be removed from the game if noone joins during the 5 min?

....


- for the disconnected player the stats for the game will be the same as a regular disconnect.
- the replacement doesn't receive any stats for the game.