[2.5.17] Fayde

[FurryTuna]

Fayde has seen quite a bit of competitive light recently. The hero is usually picked as a hard-counter to Magebane, known to burn almost all of his mana if mana combustion is learned.

While hard-counters are good for the game, Fayde really has none at the moment. Eyes, dust and revelation wards are common pick-ups to limit the behavior of invisible heroes in general, but Fayde is the exception to the rule.

Her tree-walking allows her to walk past these sight providers and initiate, giving minimal time to the opposition to respond. Even if the enemy are playing conservative, staying as away from the trees as possible along with having a bound eye. She can simply stay in trees to scout their position and perhaps set-up a gank on a solo lingerer whenever possible.

One possible counter I can think of is getting a Tundra on your team, making shiver scout the woods around you and perhaps Tundra having an eye. Other than that, Fayde limits the game of many supports and squishy carries. And there is very little that can be done to stop her from what she does best: set-up ganks.

I personally think that her tree-walking ability to either be removed, granted for only the first few seconds of Reflection activation (say 5 or so seconds) or learned only when she reaches level 3 of Reflection.

Even in competitive games where she has not been successful in hard-countering Magebane, she still poses a great threat and has won more competitive games than lost them. The clear-vision + tree-walking combination of her ultimate is game-changing in itself and therefore, I suggest it should be looked at.

However, these are just my opinions. You guys are entitled to your own, but share them in a civilized and constructive manner.

[Gorb]

Approved! Please try to stick to the discussion of treewalking and/or ability combination potential (r.e. niche use(s)), and avoid making outright suggestions.

[WiLd_LiF3]

I personally don't see the problem. Her ultimate got reworked quite awhile ago and personally I think it's fine the way it is.

[Freakybear]

I agree with the OP. Tree-Walking in itself is not problematic, neither is invisibility, nor clear-vision. The problem is when all 3 of them are merged into 1 skill.

Fayde is a ganker, who dishes out decent damage (even without codex) and her stun is among one of the bests out there. The problem with tree-walking + clear-vision + invisibility is that there is very little one could do to avoid being initiated on.

And even late game, she can simply sit in trees constantly revealing the position of enemies with only 10 seconds down-time. She has a little too much utility right now:
(1) AOE Stun
(2) AOE Mana burn
(3) AOE Slow (that goes through magic immunity, physical immunity and null-stone).
(4) Clear-Vision on 3 out of 4 spells.
(5) Tree Walking
(6) Insane amount of scouting, with tree walking and added movement speed.

Granted Bound Eye or Dust is not a complete counter to invisibility since most invising spells also grant added movement speed for escaping, but when tree-walking is added to the mix. It is just too much.

I agree with the OP's suggestion of removing the tree-walking part entirely, Fayde can function well without it, due to all the other bonuses she received in the rework.

[NitroS]

I agree with the OP. Tree-Walking in itself is not problematic, neither is invisibility, nor clear-vision. The problem is when all 3 of them are merged into 1 skill.

Fayde is a ganker, who dishes out decent damage (even without codex) and her stun is among one of the bests out there. The problem with tree-walking + clear-vision + invisibility is that there is very little one could do to avoid being initiated on.

And even late game, she can simply sit in trees constantly revealing the position of enemies with only 10 seconds down-time. She has a little too much utility right now:
(1) AOE Stun
(2) AOE Mana burn
(3) AOE Slow (that goes through magic immunity, physical immunity and null-stone).
(4) Clear-Vision on 3 out of 4 spells.
(5) Tree Walking
(6) Insane amount of scouting, with tree walking and added movement speed.

Granted Bound Eye or Dust is not a complete counter to invisibility since most invising spells also grant added movement speed for escaping, but when tree-walking is added to the mix. It is just too much.

I agree with the OP's suggestion of removing the tree-walking part entirely, Fayde can function well without it, due to all the other bonuses she received in the rework.
i disagree i think it is a hard hero to lane because you have to inject alot of farm into her to be useful. you cant run her in a mid like in pubs cause she is a bad solo. If anything this hero is too weak especially in the tank meta. Why lane a fayde when you can lane a kraken? and tundra also fills her role with a much safer distance.

[Alten]

I think it's well-argued that Tundra should probably be looked at, if Fayde is in need of nerfs. Besides; hero dynamics tends to make games more interesting, and a hard counter to MB in the form of Fayde is not necessarily a bad thing.

[FurryTuna]

I think it's well-argued that Tundra should probably be looked at, if Fayde is in need of nerfs. Besides; hero dynamics tends to make games more interesting, and a hard counter to MB in the form of Fayde is not necessarily a bad thing.

Yes, I encourage hard-counters. Unfortunately, Fayde herself has none (or no significant ones). Bound Eyes, Revelation Wards, Dust can not stop her from creeping over and scouting. Or perhaps initiating whenever a vulnerability arises.

Her tree-walking, in conjunction with massive Clear-vision, Invisibility and bonus movement speed is a bit too much for one skill. Chopping off tree-walking will actually leave her with some counters. Of course she can still scout, but will be punished if she positions herself badly.

Remember, Alten, I am not suggesting a nerf to Burning Shadows, but instead wanting to erase her tree-walking. This is in no way removing her hard-countering-ness. It is just to make her ability of limiting other people's behavior counterable.

[NitroS]

Yes, I encourage hard-counters. Unfortunately, Fayde herself has none (or no significant ones). Bound Eyes, Revelation Wards, Dust can not stop her from creeping over and scouting. Or perhaps initiating whenever a vulnerability arises.

Her tree-walking, in conjunction with massive Clear-vision, Invisibility and bonus movement speed is a bit too much for one skill. Chopping off tree-walking will actually leave her with some counters. Of course she can still scout, but will be punished if she positions herself badly.

Remember, Alten, I am not suggesting a nerf to Burning Shadows, but instead wanting to erase her tree-walking. This is in no way removing her hard-countering-ness. It is just to make her ability of limiting other people's behavior counterable.

if you erase her tree walking then she would need a major buff in another part of her skillset because even with tree walking she isnt a top tier pick. Also tundra and emerald warden and deadwood with eyes are all counters to her so its pointless saying theres no counters. Also shadowblade.

[man_guy]

Clearvision is sort of needed with tree walking as you cannot see what you're getting into until the vision is on somewhat equal terms. I would be in favor of giving her conic clear vision instead of a full circle (if the engine is capable of doing it), but I don't think Fayde is a huge problem. There are enough clearvision skills existing on other heroes to counter her sufficiently well.

[LordTroll]

I think she's FINE.

Just as context, I think every hero that relies on a skill that grants invisibility should have a secondary effect added to said invisibility spell. I mean, invisibility itself is so easy to counter. Scout, Fayde and Madman are fine heroes even if exposed, for instance, as Scout has his steroid, Fayde has her clearvision and treewalking and Madman has max movementspeed on a short cooldown.

Night Hound is the only hero hard countered by revelation, since his invisibility spell just grants invisibility... NH is the one that needs to be tweaked in regards to his ultimate in my opinion, not Fayde or the others.

[TinyHippo]

I think Fayde is fine. Maybe the duration on her ult at later levels could be reduced a bit though.

[`rnz`]

:tund::tund::tund::tund::tund::tund::tund::tund::t und::tund::tund: <-- pick this guy

[Good_Apollo]

I'm completely ignorant of Fayde actually being used recently in competitive games. Examples?


Night Hound is the only hero hard countered by revelation, since his invisibility spell just grants invisibility... NH is the one that needs to be tweaked in regards to his ultimate in my opinion, not Fayde or the others. Incredibly cost efficient reveal items are what's too strong.

[Tupimus]

I'm completely ignorant of Fayde actually being used recently in competitive games. Examples?

Incredibly cost efficient reveal items are what's too strong.
The only thing that is too strong is Eye. Dust is **** and Revs are stationary for 100g a pop.

[Tay_z0nday]

THe sad things with her is that she can gank twice as good as any others ganker...
Yet her ult cd is too low compare to ws and yet does even more...
People might say that it does less dmg but yet her others spell are so strong that she is still always able to pick up a kill...
I also think her stun is way to powerfull for the manacost and cd...
It does dmg and yet it stun for all heroes that get hit for 2.5 sec...
I think her stun should do as much dmg but having the stun reduce to 2 sec.
I would Also increase her ult cd by 15 sec...

Her stun is the same as Nerubian assasin(dota) but it got a higher duration,dmg,less manacost,much more range and cant be dodge or proc null stone... what can I say of more... Her stun is better in everyway beside they share the same cd...

Then she might not have an higher assist ratio than support and an higher kill ratio than an Hard carry...

[Rosgath]

Fayde has seen quite a bit of competitive light recently. The hero is usually picked as a hard-counter to Magebane, known to burn almost all of his mana if mana combustion is learned.

While hard-counters are good for the game, Fayde really has none at the moment. Eyes, dust and revelation wards are common pick-ups to limit the behavior of invisible heroes in general, but Fayde is the exception to the rule.

Her tree-walking allows her to walk past these sight providers and initiate, giving minimal time to the opposition to respond. Even if the enemy are playing conservative, staying as away from the trees as possible along with having a bound eye. She can simply stay in trees to scout their position and perhaps set-up a gank on a solo lingerer whenever possible.

One possible counter I can think of is getting a Tundra on your team, making shiver scout the woods around you and perhaps Tundra having an eye. Other than that, Fayde limits the game of many supports and squishy carries. And there is very little that can be done to stop her from what she does best: set-up ganks.

I personally think that her tree-walking ability to either be removed, granted for only the first few seconds of Reflection activation (say 5 or so seconds) or learned only when she reaches level 3 of Reflection.

Even in competitive games where she has not been successful in hard-countering Magebane, she still poses a great threat and has won more competitive games than lost them. The clear-vision + tree-walking combination of her ultimate is game-changing in itself and therefore, I suggest it should be looked at.

However, these are just my opinions. You guys are entitled to your own, but share them in a civilized and constructive manner.

I would actually argue that anyone with either strong tree clearing abilities (i.e. :dead: :amun: :tund:) or clearvision abilities (i.e. :shad: :flin: again :tund:) are actually good counters to :fayd:. Drop a rev ward then reveal the woods and you'll be able to gank her in the middle of the trees.

[PrestonLee]

The clear-vision is the main thing that needs to be addressed; 1200 clearvision is simply too much, despite it being level 3 ulti the amount of advantage you get is over the top and i'm not quite sure why it was necessary to keep it that high. the much better cooldowns and higher damage should be reason enough to skill ulti, scaling vision really wasn't necessary imo.

consider further lowering the clearvision on it, if it must scale then trying 800/900/1000 radius sounds like a decent direction to start at.

taking out tree-walking puts Fayde back in dumpster-realm as this is the entire reason to pick her over other gankers (the extreme mobility she has combined with being harder to detect). without it she's just another nighthound/scout (with invis on a much larger cooldown) catered toward ganking and gets countered by simply having a boundeye (ie borderline useless).

also keep in mind though that her main strength that makes her even remotely viable in higher level play right now is that vision, without it she's just another melee ganker that is inevitably outclassed by pebbles. we want to keep the traits of a hero that make her viable and encourage variety in picks/team setups, not nerf her into a position where she isn't being picked at all over other heroes because certain aspects were deemed 'overpowered'

viable =/= overpowered (or at least it shouldn't be), be sure whatever suggestions made don't throw her back into garbage-tier like she used to be at.

i've said it a million times in this forum in the past, but baby steps. i'd say fayde as at a pretty comfortable spot in usability right now and her clear vision utility is the only thing that is slightly over the top.

[FurryTuna]

Alright Preston, do you think 600 / 700 / 800 clear-vision would be better suited? Or would you prefer a static 800 for all levels?

I personally would prefer a static 600 radius to match it with EW's ultimate passive, regardless of how different the skills or the heroes are. Or the fact that Reflection has a down-time but Gawain does not.

[Nemesis10549]

fayde is completely balanced. No tweaks required imo

[PrestonLee]

Alright Preston, do you think 600 / 700 / 800 clear-vision would be better suited? Or would you prefer a static 800 for all levels?

I personally would prefer a static 600 radius to match it with EW's ultimate passive, regardless of how different the skills or the heroes are. Or the fact that Reflection has a down-time but Gawain does not.I was actually thinking exactly 600 / 700 / 800 at first, but then I thought that would be too big of a hit to Fayde as she is a melee hero that actively seeks ganks early on whereas EW is a ranged that just has a tacked on clearvision utility as her perk for picking her.

600 range at level 1 seems a bit too much of a hit imo and makes her vision when walking through trees kind of off when she can't see past trees at all when running through them; keeping it at 800 at least keeps her vision the same as night vision when walking through trees which seems to make sense to me.

So going back to my previous post, I think 800/900/1000 is a good babystep to consider as it still nerfs her scouting abiliter somewhat in the later stages of the game, while not being too drastic of a change from where it currently is at. I'd also consider trying the static 800 at all levels, but again it may (or may not) be too big of a hit for her vision in terms of competitive viability (though I wouldn't know cuz I'm not a competitive player :p).

[Cyber_Kun]

Why do people want to nerf one of the interesting Strengths of the hero in the vision?

Tundra has a bird with 1200 vision as well and he can get that at level 5. I know one is not supposed to compare skills without looking at the whole, but my point stands.

What my point is, why are you all so sure she needs a nerf and why are you sure it is in visibility besides one thinking she has no counters.

[PrestonLee]

because tundra's bird does not have a 50 second invisibility time, and tundra does not have an aoe linestun, aoe set mana drain burst nuke, nor big damage combo burst on top of the tree-walking like fayde does (okay tundra's burst is decently high, but not to fayde's degree).

with that said, i'm inclined to thinking tundra's bird is quite overpowered in terms of map awareness as well, at least a skill level 3 (meaning in terms of vision his W is a 3 point wonder, i'm not sure why you wouldn't just make it scale with the max being at 4 instead of 3).

i'm actually not even saying i personally have a problem with fayde at all (obligatory troll fayde most played and fayde avatar mention), i think she's closer to balanced than many other heroes.. but imho if there was something that needed to be addressed it would be her 1200 vision at level 3.

i really just don't see why it was necessary to give her that large of a vision field as the game progresses into later stages, but for some reason reduce it's vision at lower levels (her most recent nerf).. i don't get the actual reasoning behind the scaling vision nerf other than "it seemed cool to make it scale as she gets higher levels in it cuz we like to make random changes to heroes that supposedly balance the game" :p

just throwing my opinion out on it. if you asked me I still want my stance-switching back, ranged mana-burn and aoe pkey cull-stuns were boss and i sorely miss that :p

[Farosarg]

I also think that she already has big weaknesses in that she doesn't have that much freedom on how you are going to lane her, she is most of the time really squishy throughout the whole game and especially during her laning she can be shut down. Her real big strength is that she punishes late-game teams that don't farm/lane smart or don't play good teamwork. Her effectiveness is also greatly reduced by any push oriented line-up or by the presence of any big healers, which is why she is not much of a good pick before last pick-slot.

[Freakybear]

Fayde has one of the best AOE stuns in the game. I know Magmus, Behemoth are considered the best ones, but Fayde is not that far behind them.

A hero that can now so easily set-up late-game team-fights (thanks to tree-walking and massive clear-vision), should not also be a solo ganker pre-codex. Now I am not for nerfing her burst because she is kind of like NA, but has FAAAAAAAAR more utility. Therefore, it is IMPERATIVE to tone down some of her utility, whether it be gimping her off the tree-walking, reducing her clear-vision substantially or simply taking away her bonus movement speed on invisibility. (PS: The skill disjoints too, incase people didn't know this).

I dunno but someone said that Burning Shadows has longer stun duration than Impale of NA, errrr.... Completely false, there is a fly time on NA's Impale which makes it ~2.7 seconds (~0.2 longer than BS). Other perks of Impale over BS is that it damages invisible heroes and can be used for farming creeps.

[Lnatic]

:pest2: says hello
:witc: slays you
:devo3: eats you away
:dead: punches like a boss
:bloo: ***** please
:flux: fluxed
:amun: omfg bye
:jere2: (nightmare)
:bubb: I don't think she will ever walk straight again...
:tund: boom
:vind2: makes you rage quit
:phar: where you going?
:legi: lmao
:shrunkenhead: cool story bro
:nullstone: f*** you
:kuldrassheepstick: oh really?
:boundeye: how you see me?
:barrieridol: why is my damage so low?
:stormspirit: oh cmon
:wardofrevelation::wardofsight:http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/items/wardofrevelation.pnghttp://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/smilies/items/wardofsight.png you knew i was coming?

All in all Fayde is pretty strong mid but is not overpowered she is just a pubstomper.

[Freakybear]

says hello

Devourer can not scout, has 2 single target interrupts. His slow is nullified by magic immunity and his ultimate disable is nullified by nullstone.

Fayde's Deep Shadows slow, on the other hand, is uncounterable. :D

Also well-placed sight wards counter all Devourer ganks, while Fayde initiations are almost impossible to avoid. Even if you have dust, bound eye or revelation wards. The only thing one can do is, to always stay in a circle-ish group so Fayde can only stun 2-3 people at best, which in truth is not really a way to nullify her ganks. :(

Her job is to limit the behavior of squishy heroes and there is very little anyone can do to avoid her from doing what she does best. Hope this makes it clear, why combining clear-vision + tree-walking + invisibility + added movement speed + burst on auto-attack is too much for one skill and perhaps a recipe for disaster.

[Lnatic]

Hmph didn't finish posted cause i missclicked 9:

[S0ciety]

To those that say Fayde needs a hard counter:

Fayde does not scale well into late game, so if she does take over early/mid game a good counter is to play defensively and let your carry get big. Always accompany your farming carry with a support and he will be much harder to gank.

Also I would say that vindicator would be a great hard carry that is difficult for fayde to gank. Due to his passive, if fayde ults vindicator, he has time to ult and tp away or possibly turn around a kill on her.

[Tay_z0nday]

Worse post ever D:
Sheep stick a counter to fayde? tell me an heroes that it's not a counter...
bubble WTH
She can kill you even with vestiment and yet her stun scale so much since it's 2.5 sec...
Her ult is also gamechanging...

Eye?
We are all buying it to counter fayde and yet, she just go into trees and wait for her team to iniate...

Thundra= boom
well I guess you were talking about his ult well guess what peoples arent picking him to waste such a strong ult on fayde but for his bird that can see her...
She is as no way a decent heroes...

All her spells are op beside her third spells.
Even the first one do you know how much 28% mana is?

I think removing her ult to be able to walk in the trees is not the things to do...
Maybe simply remove all vision when inside trees and if she want to see she got to go outside?

Just a tough and maybe nerfing her stun but not the dmg...

Vindicator a counter to fayde?
Do you know that if he want to fight her he will have to do it with 20% health or less and if you went tank do you know that you got no dmg and she could just walk away...

Last things go see her average stats(kdr) and her win ratio...
I hope Dogkaiser will nerf her a bit...

[Lnatic]

Worse post ever D:
Sheep stick a counter to fayde? tell me an heroes that it's not a counter...
bubble WTH
She can kill you even with vestiment and yet her stun scale so much since it's 2.5 sec...
Her ult is also gamechanging...

Eye?
We are all buying it to counter fayde and yet, she just go into trees and wait for her team to iniate...

Thundra= boom
well I guess you were talking about his ult well guess what peoples arent picking him to waste such a strong ult on fayde but for his bird that can see her...
She is as no way a decent heroes...

All her spells are op beside her third spells.
Even the first one do you know how much 28% mana is?

I think removing her ult to be able to walk in the trees is not the things to do...
Maybe simply remove all vision when inside trees and if she want to see she got to go outside?

Just a tough and maybe nerfing her stun but not the dmg...

Vindicator a counter to fayde?
Do you know that if he want to fight her he will have to do it with 20% health or less and if you went tank do you know that you got no dmg and she could just walk away...

Last things go see her average stats(kdr) and her win ratio...
I hope Dogkaiser will nerf her a bit...

Sheepstick: Disables her long enough for the team to kill her
Bubbles: Silence and an ulti that can stop her from moving and/or chasing along with her teammates, also his E if used well can ignore all of her spells(although it requires a lot of practice)
Eye: Get eye/wards early she wont be able to gank effectively
Tundra: Q cuts trees, bird for scouting, R for disrupting her and making her an easy kill
Vindicator: His silence moves her from being usefull to being pretty useless and killed easily

All in all Fayde is NOT op like i've said she is just a pubstompper all you need is good teamfight placement and wards/eyes and she wont be able to do anything (unless your team is completely retarded to not get an eye till min 20)
Also Fayde isn't that beefy just don't let her get near carries and target her/disable her and all is good.

[Skinsword]

I love playing as Fayde, but I feel that she is only dangerous if given the chance to snowball.

I am by no means an amazing player, but my average kd for Fayde is 1.55 the last time I checked. Even going mid, I feel that the hardest thing is to build that first Codex. Once you get the codex (around the 15-20 min mark), she snowballs amazingly. Before then, her stun cull combo fails to drop most tanky heroes as long as they're relatively healthy.

I think that Fayde shines early/mid game. The best example of this would be a game I played around a month ago. We were Legion and my score was 29-11 and the team score was 54-38. However we still lost because their predator (which was 3-4 levels under me), got an eye and no one on my team can stop him.

With that said, there are a few things that can counter Fayde at various stages of the game.
-Mystic Vestments provides cheap magic armor
-Shaman's Headdress and Barrier Idol is self explanatory, especially since 100% of Fayde's lethality comes from magic damage
-Shrunken head helps, but it requires godly reaction times. If you are in a teamfight and Fayde isn't there, just go and pop the head early so she can't get you while her outnumbered team is getting smashed.
-Nullstone counters the codex, which is where at least 30-50% of Fayde's damage comes from.
- Good warding, playing defensively, and good communication wrecks Fayde.

[Lnatic]

I love playing as Fayde, but I feel that she is only dangerous if given the chance to snowball.

I am by no means an amazing player, but my average kd for Fayde is 1.55 the last time I checked. Even going mid, I feel that the hardest thing is to build that first Codex. Once you get the codex (around the 15-20 min mark), she snowballs amazingly. Before then, her stun cull combo fails to drop most tanky heroes as long as they're relatively healthy.

I think that Fayde shines early/mid game. The best example of this would be a game I played around a month ago. We were Legion and my score was 29-11 and the team score was 54-38. However we still lost because their predator (which was 3-4 levels under me), got an eye and no one on my team can stop him.

With that said, there are a few things that can counter Fayde at various stages of the game.
-Mystic Vestments provides cheap magic armor
-Shaman's Headdress and Barrier Idol is self explanatory, especially since 100% of Fayde's lethality comes from magic damage
-Shrunken head helps, but it requires godly reaction times. If you are in a teamfight and Fayde isn't there, just go and pop the head early so she can't get you while her outnumbered team is getting smashed.
-Nullstone counters the codex, which is where at least 30-50% of Fayde's damage comes from.
- Good warding, playing defensively, and good communication wrecks Fayde.

This.

[MassDivide]

Removing treewalking is a terrible idea. Instead why not grant her "invisibility while stationary" and a "Predator" camouflage effect while reflection is on. Literally Reflecting her surroundings.

[PrestonLee]

- Good warding, playing defensively, and good communication wrecks Faydeall gankers, not just Fayde.fixed.

I really feel you're under-estimating the capability of what a 1200 clearvision invisible ward that can move and tree-walk can offer to a team later game, and that your judgements on her are limited to your experience of her stomping mid with pubstomp builds; in reality Fayde isn't ONLY limited to being a snowballing ganker, but but can also fit into the role of support ganker, initiator, intel, and anti-carry very nicely.

Yes, fitting her into a solo mid situation vs the right heroes can grab her levels and allow her to potentially snowball gank with her burst, BUT this is in no way the only way of using her effectively; she's also VERY capable of dual laning with another (ranged) stun as she has a VERY reliable stun at her disposal, that coincidentally DOES NOT push the creepwave, and what it comes down to is she actually DOES NOT need much farm to actually be useful to her team. She is very capable of playing a psuedo-support role and grabbing support-oriented items (like :ringofsorcery: :astrolabe: :energizer: :tabletofcommand: :abyssalskull: :hellflower: :puzzlebox: :portalkey: etc.) to give her more worth in TEAMFIGHTS, and just being used specifically for her utility stuns, clearvision initiation, and clearvision slow, rather than focusing on her burst ganking potential in solo-gank situations (in truth, she's actually pretty horrible at ganking early on because of how ridiculously long her 90 second ulti cooldown is at low level, coupled with how small her window of opportunity to use the invis is).

The whole "I NEED TO RUSH MY CODEX TO DO WELL WITH FAYDE OR GG" assumption (as with Parasite) is a HUGE misconception on her, started by pubstomping players when Fayde was horribly underpowered (due to getting a slew of nerfs) and could not walk through trees and her mana drain was gimped.. the build was done in an effort to make her more 'viable' and work off what she did have (decent burst). However, Fayde does NOT actually need to snowball with a Codex to give worth to her team. Even without farm, she is still capable of providing a very reliable AoE line-stun, and has above average initiation capabilities with her ulti, if not for the invis then simply due to being able to run and stay hidden through trees.. to add to that, she has another AoE burst nuke that drains 25% of the mana of all targets hit, and a clearvision AoE slow for team utility. Granted her being really squishy and a melee hero, with good positioning in team-fights she is no where near useless just because of all her utility (an AoE linestun is an AoE linestun, which is always going to be incredibly useful only Behe, Witch, and Myrmidon have that, and Fayde's linestun again has the bonus of ignoring creeps and does NOT push the lane).

I'm not saying that these things are what make her overpowered, and I'm not even suggesting that she is overpowered at all, but I am saying that you (as well as many others) are only tunnel-visioning her worth in terms of her burst damage as a snowball-pubstomp ganker, and aren't seeing all of her actual potential worth, and I strongly feel that you (as well as the many others that only see Fayde as a pubstomp Codex snowball ganker) should re-examine your opinion to include other potential situations BESIDES only pubstomping mid before talking about balance; she has more potential than just running around with a Codex and killing squishies/noobs if you can open your mind up a bit.

-

tl;dr - competitive teams don't pick fayde for her burst, look at the hero as a whole first before making judgements about 'how easy it is to negate her burst' and rushing to the conclusion that she is in effect useless.. she can offer much more to a team than just burst damage.

Snowballing with Codex on Fayde isn't what makes her win higher bracket games.. smart team initiation, intel advantage and counterplay are what her real strengths are, and those are what make her a considerable pick over other gank heroes that just gank better. take that into account before dismissing her as a bad pick because you picked up Vestments.. :/

edit:
I'm touchy on the subject of Fayde because honestly most people just do NOT actually play her well at all (I'm sorry to say but buying a Codex and stomping bad players DOES NOT equate to playing her well), and the overall conceptions of her worth get skewed by bad players inefficiently playing her when she really has a LOT more potential than people think she has. People who are limited to the idea that Fayde must go mid, rush Codex, and snowball gank to do well with her in general do not see her anywhere near her full potential at all. Your everyday stomp Fayde's items will look like this: :ghostmarchers: :bottle: :codex: :spellshards:, but a REAL (Fayde) player's items will tend to look much more along the lines like this on her: [:striders:/:steamboots2:] :powersupply: [:ringofsorcery:/:tabletofcommand:/] :portalkey: :boundeye: [:hellflower:/:puzzlebox:/:kuldrassheepstick:/:frostfieldplate:]

[Lnatic]

fixed.

I really feel you're under-estimating the capability of what a 1200 clearvision invisible ward that can move and tree-walk can offer to a team later game, and that your judgements on her are limited to your experience of her stomping mid with pubstomp builds; in reality Fayde isn't ONLY limited to being a snowballing ganker, but but can also fit into the role of support ganker, initiator, intel, and anti-carry very nicely.

Yes, fitting her into a solo mid situation vs the right heroes can grab her levels and allow her to potentially snowball gank with her burst, BUT this is in no way the only way of using her effectively; she's also VERY capable of dual laning with another (ranged) stun as she has a VERY reliable stun at her disposal, that coincidentally DOES NOT push the creepwave, and what it comes down to is she actually DOES NOT need much farm to actually be useful to her team. She is very capable of playing a psuedo-support role and grabbing support-oriented items (like :ringofsorcery: :astrolabe: :energizer: :tabletofcommand: :abyssalskull: :hellflower: :puzzlebox: :portalkey: etc.) to give her more worth in TEAMFIGHTS, and just being used specifically for her utility stuns, clearvision initiation, and clearvision slow, rather than focusing on her burst ganking potential in solo-gank situations (in truth, she's actually pretty horrible at ganking early on because of how ridiculously long her 90 second ulti cooldown is at low level, coupled with how small her window of opportunity to use the invis is).

The whole "I NEED TO RUSH MY CODEX TO DO WELL WITH FAYDE OR GG" assumption (as with Parasite) is a HUGE misconception on her, started by pubstomping players when Fayde was horribly underpowered (due to getting a slew of nerfs) and could not walk through trees and her mana drain was gimped.. the build was done in an effort to make her more 'viable' and work off what she did have (decent burst). However, Fayde does NOT actually need to snowball with a Codex to give worth to her team. Even without farm, she is still capable of providing a very reliable AoE line-stun, and has above average initiation capabilities with her ulti, if not for the invis then simply due to being able to run and stay hidden through trees.. to add to that, she has another AoE burst nuke that drains 25% of the mana of all targets hit, and a clearvision AoE slow for team utility. Granted her being really squishy and a melee hero, with good positioning in team-fights she is no where near useless just because of all her utility (an AoE linestun is an AoE linestun, which is always going to be incredibly useful only Behe, Witch, and Myrmidon have that, and Fayde's linestun again has the bonus of ignoring creeps and does NOT push the lane).

I'm not saying that these things are what make her overpowered, and I'm not even suggesting that she is overpowered at all, but I am saying that you (as well as many others) are only tunnel-visioning her worth in terms of her burst damage as a snowball-pubstomp ganker, and aren't seeing all of her actual potential worth, and I strongly feel that you (as well as the many others that only see Fayde as a pubstomp Codex snowball ganker) should re-examine your opinion to include other potential situations BESIDES only pubstomping mid before talking about balance; she has more potential than just running around with a Codex and killing squishies/noobs if you can open your mind up a bit.

-

tl;dr - competitive teams don't pick fayde for her burst, look at the hero as a whole first before making judgements about 'how easy it is to negate her burst' and rushing to the conclusion that she is in effect useless.. she can offer much more to a team than just burst damage.

Snowballing with Codex on Fayde isn't what makes her win higher bracket games.. smart team initiation, intel advantage and counterplay are what her real strengths are, and those are what make her a considerable pick over other gank heroes that just gank better. take that into account before dismissing her as a bad pick because you picked up Vestments.. :/

edit:
I'm touchy on the subject of Fayde because honestly most people just do NOT actually play her well at all (I'm sorry to say but buying a Codex and stomping bad players DOES NOT equate to playing her well), and the overall conceptions of her worth get skewed by bad players inefficiently playing her when she really has a LOT more potential than people think she has. People who are limited to the idea that Fayde must go mid, rush Codex, and snowball gank to do well with her in general do not see her anywhere near her full potential at all. Your everyday stomp Fayde's items will look like this: :ghostmarchers: :bottle: :codex: :spellshards:, but a REAL (Fayde) player's items will tend to look much more along the lines like this on her: [:striders:/:steamboots2:] :powersupply: [:ringofsorcery:/:tabletofcommand:/] :portalkey: :boundeye: [:hellflower:/:puzzlebox:/:kuldrassheepstick:/:frostfieldplate:]

^ This explains everything.

[Alten]

fixed.

I really feel you're under-estimating the capability of what a 1200 clearvision invisible ward that can move and tree-walk can offer to a team later game, and that your judgements on her are limited to your experience of her stomping mid with pubstomp builds; in reality Fayde isn't ONLY limited to being a snowballing ganker, but but can also fit into the role of support ganker, initiator, intel, and anti-carry very nicely.

Yes, fitting her into a solo mid situation vs the right heroes can grab her levels and allow her to potentially snowball gank with her burst, BUT this is in no way the only way of using her effectively; she's also VERY capable of dual laning with another (ranged) stun as she has a VERY reliable stun at her disposal, that coincidentally DOES NOT push the creepwave, and what it comes down to is she actually DOES NOT need much farm to actually be useful to her team. She is very capable of playing a psuedo-support role and grabbing support-oriented items (like :ringofsorcery: :astrolabe: :energizer: :tabletofcommand: :abyssalskull: :hellflower: :puzzlebox: :portalkey: etc.) to give her more worth in TEAMFIGHTS, and just being used specifically for her utility stuns, clearvision initiation, and clearvision slow, rather than focusing on her burst ganking potential in solo-gank situations (in truth, she's actually pretty horrible at ganking early on because of how ridiculously long her 90 second ulti cooldown is at low level, coupled with how small her window of opportunity to use the invis is).

The whole "I NEED TO RUSH MY CODEX TO DO WELL WITH FAYDE OR GG" assumption (as with Parasite) is a HUGE misconception on her, started by pubstomping players when Fayde was horribly underpowered (due to getting a slew of nerfs) and could not walk through trees and her mana drain was gimped.. the build was done in an effort to make her more 'viable' and work off what she did have (decent burst). However, Fayde does NOT actually need to snowball with a Codex to give worth to her team. Even without farm, she is still capable of providing a very reliable AoE line-stun, and has above average initiation capabilities with her ulti, if not for the invis then simply due to being able to run and stay hidden through trees.. to add to that, she has another AoE burst nuke that drains 25% of the mana of all targets hit, and a clearvision AoE slow for team utility. Granted her being really squishy and a melee hero, with good positioning in team-fights she is no where near useless just because of all her utility (an AoE linestun is an AoE linestun, which is always going to be incredibly useful only Behe, Witch, and Myrmidon have that, and Fayde's linestun again has the bonus of ignoring creeps and does NOT push the lane).

I'm not saying that these things are what make her overpowered, and I'm not even suggesting that she is overpowered at all, but I am saying that you (as well as many others) are only tunnel-visioning her worth in terms of her burst damage as a snowball-pubstomp ganker, and aren't seeing all of her actual potential worth, and I strongly feel that you (as well as the many others that only see Fayde as a pubstomp Codex snowball ganker) should re-examine your opinion to include other potential situations BESIDES only pubstomping mid before talking about balance; she has more potential than just running around with a Codex and killing squishies/noobs if you can open your mind up a bit.

-

tl;dr - competitive teams don't pick fayde for her burst, look at the hero as a whole first before making judgements about 'how easy it is to negate her burst' and rushing to the conclusion that she is in effect useless.. she can offer much more to a team than just burst damage.

Snowballing with Codex on Fayde isn't what makes her win higher bracket games.. smart team initiation, intel advantage and counterplay are what her real strengths are, and those are what make her a considerable pick over other gank heroes that just gank better. take that into account before dismissing her as a bad pick because you picked up Vestments.. :/

edit:
I'm touchy on the subject of Fayde because honestly most people just do NOT actually play her well at all (I'm sorry to say but buying a Codex and stomping bad players DOES NOT equate to playing her well), and the overall conceptions of her worth get skewed by bad players inefficiently playing her when she really has a LOT more potential than people think she has. People who are limited to the idea that Fayde must go mid, rush Codex, and snowball gank to do well with her in general do not see her anywhere near her full potential at all. Your everyday stomp Fayde's items will look like this: :ghostmarchers: :bottle: :codex: :spellshards:, but a REAL (Fayde) player's items will tend to look much more along the lines like this on her: [:striders:/:steamboots2:] :powersupply: [:ringofsorcery:/:tabletofcommand:/] :portalkey: :boundeye: [:hellflower:/:puzzlebox:/:kuldrassheepstick:/:frostfieldplate:]

See: the last Fayde discussion with arguments as to her trilane capability and other things this post is trying to convey.

[zstarkey42]

I'm going to have to agree with that as well. Fayde can do much more than just pubstomp ganks. I usually play her as a support ganker. She can lane very very well with other ranged heros, and her reliable stun allows for very easy kills in the short lane. I've even tried pairing her with a Devourer friend and even though we are 2 melees in lane, an unexpected shadow stun in opportunistic moments equals to guaranteed hooks and kills. :P This isn't really the best example but there's countless ways to do well in lane with her.
Playing as a support/ganker means that you focus your game in warding and scouting for enemies or isolated targets. My usual build is :ghostmarchers::bottle4::codex::hellflower::frostf ieldplate:. Upgrading Codex isn't really worth it unless you're having a really good start. You can replace it to :puzzlebox: if you wish though. I don't really find her overpowered; being a squishy melee and needing to actually hit once out of stealth for maximum damage makes it already dangerous to initiate in certain occasions. Also, your Cull, Deep Shadows and Puzzlebox minions are pretty much a hard counter to Magebane or Ra. If you also get to upgrade your Puzzlebox (unlikely) you have permanent counterwarding as well.

[FurryTuna]

I see more and more people here are starting to see how the combination tree-walking, 1200 clear-vision (with only 10 second down-time), plus AOE stun, plus AOE superior magic AOE slow makes Fayde one of the best initiating heroes with negligible counters.

Does that make Fayde OP or not is another question? A better question is will shortening Fayde clear-vision to a static 800 make her completely useless (or junk-tier)? Probably not, but perhaps will make her less appealing than she is.

What do you guys think?

[Apostate]

I do not find her to be imbalanced, but rather exactly where she should be.

[Glibber`]

Anyway, steamboots (start with the str item first, dont get the int from the sideshop), battery into ps+vests and there: You just survived any solo gank attempt from a fayde or pebs barring a haste or dd rune (granted you were about full hp). Just getting these items will almost stop any solo gank from magic ganker/nukers. It's really good to get strboots vests and ps, especially on supports when facing faydes and pebbles etc.

With decent reaction speed, you can magic immune when she opens on you from ult (since she'll hit you once with the ult, then do the combo), you can do this with either shrunken or pred or swift (no idea if the cast time from jera is quicker than bs).

Also, bs doesn't work on creeps, it's only on heros.

Also also, jera acc monarch glacius ds moa andro and some others+healers in general can all help mitigate (burst) damage in some way.

Also also also, leaps and blinks that are faster than bs.

Last also, you all talk about the vision like it's 1200 at all levels, well it's not. It was rescaled/tweaked a bit ago and the 15-20 sec invis at lvl 6 has like.. 800?


So ye, when playing against good teams (that stay away from the trees, have a rev ward or eye near etc) a good fayde will sometimes choose to start with the aoe stun from out of invis, losing a bit of her burst. And she will definately not go codex lvl 5, items as hf pk pbox etc are just thát much better.

So no, I don't think she needs to be nerfed on her 1200 clearvision or treewalking.. I think there will be nothing left of her when that would happen.



edit: I do think it's a bit silly that eye is one of the best items on her :D And no idea the slow was physical.

[`11411181]

"makes Fayde one of the best initiating heroes with negligible counters."

Brought to you live from TMM, the home of competitive HoN.

[PlayeroJ]

I also think that she already has big weaknesses in that she doesn't have that much freedom on how you are going to lane her, she is most of the time really squishy throughout the whole game and especially during her laning she can be shut down. Her real big strength is that she punishes late-game teams that don't farm/lane smart or don't play good teamwork. Her effectiveness is also greatly reduced by any push oriented line-up or by the presence of any big healers, which is why she is not much of a good pick before last pick-slot.

Actually with the stun change from 1/1.5/2/2.5 -> 1.6/1.9/2.2/2.5 I think the problem you're referring to is almost non-existent. Fayde has a great lvl 1 AoE stun plus more AoE damage to boot. It's like a laning pyro that is more capable of initiating with a stun, and less mana dependent.

[`Krigsbest]

This hero is OP and too easily mastered.

[Alten]

I think many of the personal issues stemming from being dominated by Fayde and even other irritating, skill-less heroes like EW (though having good knowledge of positioning on the hero is key) or Ra is the inherent fact that they have a relatively low skill ceiling with relatively high rewards. Valkyrie, DW, DR, Sil, Oph, etc. don't engender as much frustration because they actually require a relatively high amount of skill to dominate with (or they require exploiting player stupidity -- i.e., standing in a single place for excessive amounts of time while a DW or Valk is missing from the map).

If it took more skill/investment to get abilities off (like making EW's arrow a skillshot -- possibly even increasing it's effects for landing it if it was a skillshot, or giving Fayde slightly higher cast times/making her burning shadow's wave effect travel slower, or....), then these issues would pop up much less frequently. The heroes might still be too powerful (as is arguably the case with Valk/Sil), but the nerfs to the heroes would still be appreciable and increasing the skill required to be successful would be extremely desireable.

If there's one thing that is almost universally agreed upon, it's that "giving high rewards for skill and nothing for a lack of it" is better design than "giving good rewards, regardless of skill." Balance must still be attained, but allowing for such a design paradigm is ultimately what is looked for in making the game interesting and rewarding.

[FurryTuna]

I think many of the personal issues stemming from being dominated by Fayde and even other irritating, skill-less heroes like EW (though having good knowledge of positioning on the hero is key) or Ra is the inherent fact that they have a relatively low skill ceiling with relatively high rewards. Valkyrie, DW, DR, Sil, Oph, etc. don't engender as much frustration because they actually require a relatively high amount of skill to dominate with (or they require exploiting player stupidity -- i.e., standing in a single place for excessive amounts of time while a DW or Valk is missing from the map).

If it took more skill/investment to get abilities off (like making EW's arrow a skillshot -- possibly even increasing it's effects for landing it if it was a skillshot, or giving Fayde slightly higher cast times/making her burning shadow's wave effect travel slower, or....), then these issues would pop up much less frequently. The heroes might still be too powerful (as is arguably the case with Valk/Sil), but the nerfs to the heroes would still be appreciable and increasing the skill required to be successful would be extremely desireable.

If there's one thing that is almost universally agreed upon, it's that "giving high rewards for skill and nothing for a lack of it" is better design than "giving good rewards, regardless of skill." Balance must still be attained, but allowing for such a design paradigm is ultimately what is looked for in making the game interesting and rewarding.

A very simple solution has been brought up before by my clan-mate, foxmindedguy. He suggested that unit-targettability should be removed from all AOE ground-targetable spells (this includes and is not limited to Burning Shadows, Grave Yard, Lava Surge, Fissure etc etc). This allows for opposing players to have a chance of dodging said AOE spells without it tracing their every move.

Additionally, this will also solve the problem of Fog blanking (or whatever, it is called). For example, an enemy target was clicked for Burning Shadows stun, he walked up a cliff into the fog. Fayde was just about to land her Burning Shadows on him, now she just stands there like a brainless monkey until further commands are issued. She won't even try to follow him.

Thus, in a way, it will improve on both aspects but definitely work towards increasing her risks for such high rewards.

[Endroil]

I think that Fayde is exactly where she needs to be right now. A brilliant pick-up at times, decent other times, and horrible every now and then.

While Treewalking may be awesome, there are a number of heroes who lessen the effect - for example Tundra (provided a Bound Eye or Counterwards are nearby) or Pestilence.

You'd be surprised at how well a Pestilence (maybe even dual lane with Pesti?) works mid against Fayde. You ult her with Pesti, and you know exactly what she's up to - and her ultimate gets practically nullified.

While it is true that Fayde is exceptionally good among the invisible heroes at working "around" the revelation, I don't think this is a problem. Counterwards & Bound Eyes are still very effective against her, but if you move smart and act carefully you can still initiate well.

That said, she has weaknesses besides the good ol' "invis seeing" - anything with a PK and a high burst can kill her very quickly. - Never forget that she is, in fact, very squishy. She has a good stun and a nice ult to escape with in emergenices, but a Pebbles, Deadwood or Pyromancer with PK will still hurt as hell.

[ploytoy]

as far as pubs go, fayde is way too powerful. Easily used, and almost impossible to counter.

-Pesti will not be able to ult fayde before she can invis
-ditto arachna
-bh wont be able to see her with his passive until its too late if ever.
-rampage cant always charge her b4 ulti
-berzerker, marked for death not an option
-scout invis wards, or any ward of rev, will not stop her if she stays in trees
-TB could ult if u know shes in the trees next to u and could probably stop her, but thats highly situational
-Tundra could get an eye and spend all of his time trying to find fayde, but its way too much time/gold spent to effectively locate and kill fayde
-bound eye wont work if players are trying to farm and the holder of the eye isnt ALWAYS next to them...making the farming carries easy targets.
-puzzlebox...same as eye
-dust almost never works against fayde for obvious reasons

These are most of the counters i can think of and none of them are very effective against a fayde that knows what they are doing.

For most pub games she can easily win the game single handedly, unless the enemy uses hero picks/alot of gold and time to counter just 1 hero, which in the end can throw the game just as much as letting her run free.

[FurryTuna]

You'd be surprised at how well a Pestilence (maybe even dual lane with Pesti?) works mid against Fayde. You ult her with Pesti, and you know exactly what she's up to - and her ultimate gets practically nullified.


And you will be surprised when Pestilence Ultimate gets nullified, if the opposing Fayde is smart about it.

Click here to see how (http://youtu.be/yHP8wp6Ucps)

[PrestonLee]

And you will be surprised when Pestilence Ultimate gets nullified, if the opposing Fayde is smart about it.

Click here to see how (http://youtu.be/yHP8wp6Ucps)true, but that doesn't really do much. if a spammable ult forces you to waste/use your 90 second cooldown early, I'd say it was in Pestilence's advantage.

Also, Pestilence mid believe it or not is actually quite under-estimated, and really is a damn scary counter to Fayde mid. Pestilence can out-rune control Fayde (I believe he has something like 504 movespeed with Steams and Flight, 511 with Plated Greaves), and will not die to any Fayde gank attempts early on because of his natural health pool + Steams pickup; an early Portal Key+bottle+Steams along with the level advantage can show some surprisingly effective results with a Pest mid.

I don't know what this actually has to do with balance, but just putting that out there. :p

[FurryTuna]

Preston, while I see what you are saying, you have the following wrong assumptions:
(1) Rune wars is most significant pre-level 6, Pestilence can not have level 4 flight pre-level 6 :D. Although I do get your point, I believe Pestilence should still win most rune races, if Fayde doesn't level deep shadows over cull.
(2) A sane Fayde would never look to solo-gank a near full-hp Pestilence in mid-lane, she would either try to gank other lanes with squishy support or carry, or gank Pestilence mid with assistance from allies.

Other than that, I agree with you, Pestilence is under-appreciated, but that does not mean that Fayde is not a problem currently. Her light-housing ability along with having an easy to lane 2.5 seconds AOE stun, and a superior magic AOE slow makes her incredibly strong. And had there not been so much power-creeping going around, she would actually be considered over-powered.

[PrestonLee]

And had there not been so much power-creeping going around, she would actually be considered over-powered.I'd definitely agree with this, but ya know, this is the whole problem. :p You can't really call Fayde 'overpowered' when 10+ other heroes are even worse than she currently is. In comparison she's balanced D;

[FurryTuna]

I'd definitely agree with this, but ya know, this is the whole problem. :p You can't really call Fayde 'overpowered' when 10+ other heroes are even worse than she currently is. In comparison she's balanced D;

In comparison to those 10 heroes, she's balanced or underpowered. In comparison to the remaining ~90, she is overpowered.

I think it is time to either bring those 90 heroes up to the current power level of the ~10, or bring those ~10 heroes down. Which one is easier and less time-consuming?

[Danold]

In comparison to those 10 heroes, she's balanced or underpowered. In comparison to the remaining ~90, she is overpowered.

I think it is time to either bring those 90 heroes up to the current power level of the ~10, or bring those ~10 heroes down. Which one is easier and less time-consuming?

Are we talking about competitive play? Or what? It seems that comp players don't favor her much at all. She has seen some play, but I could think of 20+ with more ban/play.

I mean, I agree with the fact that in pubs she is overpowered. No doubt about it in my mind.

The simple fact is, stealth heroes are a METRIC **** TON easier to play than they are to counter. Now add treewalking and clearsight and it's even harder to counter in a pub.

But it's different in comp play apparently. I bet she'll swing into favor soon, and starting being picked competitively a lot. But as of right now.. no.

[FurryTuna]

I bet she'll swing into favor soon, and start being picked competitively a lot. But as of right now.. no.

I predict the same as well. I just wanted to prevent her true-potential being realized and then her being picked more often than not. Much like how Electrician was, no one played him. Everyone thought he was a pub hero and then one day he got picked in the competitive scene, where his shield was abused and BAM, they completely reworked his shield.

DogKaiser should not be solely dependent on Competitive players feedback for balance, he plays the game as well and is very capable of noticing what is too strong and what isn't. I think he would admit that Fayde has a little too much utility at the moment.

[PrestonLee]

I predict the same as well. I just wanted to prevent her true-potential being realized and then her being picked more often than not.
..

I think he would admit that Fayde has a little too much utility at the moment.I personally don't think she will swing into favor in competitive play anytime soon, mostly because she's simply completely outclassed by Tundra in terms of what she offers. If you wanted that team vision factor you would always aim for a Tundra pick as his clearvision is much more reliable, he has better solo laning capabilities, and he isn't limited to ultimate cooldowns for his bird scouting utility. His charge also gives a team attack-speed bonus factor, which arguably makes him better for anti-carry potential (of course on top of his ultimate).

To top it off Tundra just plain counters Fayde with his bird and a boundeye, making it not really viable to pick her as counter-intel. To make Fayde viable you'd pretty much have to ban/make sure Tundra isn't in play (and again if Tundra was available in the draft you might as well just have picked him), and even without Tundra on the field there are still more solid picks for intel/initiation like Pharoah, who can still scout efficiently with rockets, again is a better and tankier solo pick, and can initiate/counter-initiate like a beast. The only thing Fayde has over these two heroes is a somewhat dependable linestun (which can be great especially with a Portal Key), but in general I don't think it's a strong enough reason to warrant picking her as a dependable pick over Tundra/Pharoah or other melee initiators (Magmus/Kraken/Cthulu etc.).

I do agree that Fayde has a little too much utility at the moment, but this is for the most part kept in check with her being a really squishy melee on top of it, which is why I would personally say it's not 'imbalanced' but borderline acceptable. (going back to Tundra, he's the exact same way, a little too much utility packed into one hero, which is what makes him viable)

Maybe she'll be 'considered' more often in the future as she can be situationally great, but besides Magebane hard-countering I really doubt she'll ever be picked up consistently in a 'flavor of the month' way, the main thing that keeps her from being a truly dependable pick is that she's a squishy melee hero, it's hard to dependably fit one of those in a lineup regardless of whatever meta-game strats are being favored.

Not that I actually play at a competitive level or anything.. but I have played Fayde to death and have used her in so many different/unorthodox strategies/situations, and it's just the main factor that's always going to keep her from being an absolutely strong pick is she's a squishy melee hero and that's never going to change (at least without some retarded-ass reworks coming into play :p).

[FurryTuna]

She getting picked even when Magebane is not picked by the opponent team, in the competitive scene. I think Frenetic Array has finally realized her potential :D

[Juicenewton]

as far as pubs go, fayde is way too powerful. Easily used, and almost impossible to counter.

-Pesti will not be able to ult fayde before she can invis
-ditto arachna
-bh wont be able to see her with his passive until its too late if ever.
-rampage cant always charge her b4 ulti
-berzerker, marked for death not an option
-scout invis wards, or any ward of rev, will not stop her if she stays in trees
-TB could ult if u know shes in the trees next to u and could probably stop her, but thats highly situational
-Tundra could get an eye and spend all of his time trying to find fayde, but its way too much time/gold spent to effectively locate and kill fayde
-bound eye wont work if players are trying to farm and the holder of the eye isnt ALWAYS next to them...making the farming carries easy targets.
-puzzlebox...same as eye
-dust almost never works against fayde for obvious reasons

These are most of the counters i can think of and none of them are very effective against a fayde that knows what they are doing.

For most pub games she can easily win the game single handedly, unless the enemy uses hero picks/alot of gold and time to counter just 1 hero, which in the end can throw the game just as much as letting her run free.

:wardofsight::wardofrevelation:

Drop a sentry next to your obs ward watching the rune / river, and keep a ward watching the enemy tower so you can see anyone tping in.

Oh look, fayde literally cannot do anything to gank your lane now, congrats on making a hero that is like any other ganker useless via proper warding.

Fayde excels in pubs for the same reason that rampage does in that tmmers do not properly ward, rarely will you see a ward on anything other than the runes or blocking a pull camp in 95% of tmm games allowing heroes like fayde to stomp, her viability should NOT be nerfed due to players not properly understanding how to easily counter her.

[Tupimus]

:wardofsight::wardofrevelation:

Drop a sentry next to your obs ward watching the rune / river, and keep a ward watching the enemy tower so you can see anyone tping in.

Oh look, fayde literally cannot do anything to gank your lane now, congrats on making a hero that is like any other ganker useless via proper warding.

Fayde excels in pubs for the same reason that rampage does in that tmmers do not properly ward, rarely will you see a ward on anything other than the runes or blocking a pull camp in 95% of tmm games allowing heroes like fayde to stomp, her viability should NOT be nerfed due to players not properly understanding how to easily counter her.

So your solution is to practically remove two enemy supports from the game because they'd have to constantly run around dropping Revs? They wouldn't exactly have the money for both them and Observers, you know, what with low farm priority and constantly having to run around.

[skeloperch]

Oh come on! Fayde is perfectly fine where she is right now. Her ulti has an awful duration at rank one, and she drops off in effectiveness by the time she gets rank three. Fayde isn't some sort of wizard from the nether realm because she can kill you through trees, as there are MANY ganking heroes that don't give a single **** about trees. What about Tundra? Tundra fills a lot of the niches she's picked for. Pyro can kill trees to get to you, or simply kill you while standing behind the trees. Ra can just whoopsie doo through the tree line and kill you. Flint can just sit back and Flare you/ulti you. Pebbles can stun you through trees (his stun really is powerful by itself). Valkyrie can leap over trees, get vision from her javelin (which is also strong as ****), and can go invisible with her ulti. The fact is is the Fayde has the leisure of strolling through trees and being a walking light tower, but she has to get close to someone to do anything, and she has no mobility spell (minus her ulti).

Fayde is fine as is. She might be a little on the strong side, but being strong does not equate to being over powered, and definitely does not equate to needing a nerf. If she ever does recieve a nerf, then Pebbles and Valkyrie should as well.

[FurryTuna]

Fayde is fine as is. She might be a little on the strong side, but being strong does not equate to being over powered, and definitely does not equate to needing a nerf. If she ever does recieve a nerf, then Pebbles and Valkyrie should as well.

Pebbles? No.

Valkyrie? Yes, removing sight on her Javelin would be a good start.

Fayde? Yes, removing her tree walking ability would be enough (or an alternative approach would be to reduce the clear-vision to ridiculously low amount. Say 600 at all levels).

[`11411181]

Guys, we just need to reduce the clearvision. It's just too OP.
But why?
It lets her see so much!
But there are plenty of other things that do that, why this one?
Because the amount of clearvision is that much, that it allows so many new things to happen outside of the bounds of all those other spells!
Like what?
You know, seeing them that much better and just that much quicker, and being able to do that much more.

This is the summary of reading this thread.



If Fayde is going to have issues, it will be with her Andromeda-cheap AoE stun at level 1 >_>.

[FurryTuna]

Guys, we just need to reduce the clearvision. It's just too OP.
But why?
It lets her see so much!
But there are plenty of other things that do that, why this one?
Because the amount of clearvision is that much, that it allows so many new things to happen outside of the bounds of all those other spells!
Like what?
You know, seeing them that much better and just that much quicker, and being able to do that much more.

This is the summary of reading this thread.



If Fayde is going to have issues, it will be with her Andromeda-cheap AoE stun at level 1 >_>.

Anakha clear-vision in itself is not OP, clear-vision + tree-walking + unit-walking + movement speed buff + disjoint in one spell is the problem. Also, right now, Fayde has 3 spells that provide clear-vision (Burning Shadows [when it hits], Deep Shadows and Reflection).

And yes, I was not a fan of improving her stun duration to 1.6, but baby-steps :D

Again, just because a hero is not picked enough in the competitive scene doesn't mean said hero is balanced. Think Ctuluphant, I said from day one that he is very strong.

While yes, there are hardly any counters to Shiver's clear-vision, but Tundra has to get boots of travel in order to initiate from the trees or portal key. And even then, he can potentially only stun one person, not the entire team (like Fayde).

[Skyve]

Anakha clear-vision in itself is not OP, clear-vision + tree-walking + unit-walking + movement speed buff + disjoint in one spell is the problem.

What exactly is the problem with that though?
Also it doesn't disjoint as far as I know, it simply makes you invisible, which will block auto-attacks UNLESS you have something that reveals, but most skills should still hit.

The primary problem with Fayde seems to be that she is hard to deal with. Her treewalking doesn't make it easier to counter her ganking with wards, and since that requires no items, she can gank more effectively at an earlier time than Pebbles, who needs a PK for a similar initiation.

However, Fayde also deals less damage than most comparable gankers - especially with her ultimate (225 on lvl6). Plus her damage, safe for her Cull isn't instant. Her stun and her ultimate both do their damage over an extended period of time, allowing enemies to react to them.

Her stun is quite potent though. 800 range, vision (when it hits), and potential attack modifier interactions, one of the higher stun durations for level 1 stuns combined with one of the lowest manacosts (85 on lvl1).
However - her stun can't hit creeps. Be it player controlled units or not.

In addition to her ultimate and stun giving vision, her E does too btw :)

[FurryTuna]

Skyve, I thought this misconception was over by now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHP8wp6Ucps&feature=youtu.be).

[Skyve]

Still won't work while you're inside a ward of revelation AoE :D

[FurryTuna]

I tested it to see if Fayde's Reflection could break free from Keeper Ult or Glacius Ice Imprisonment and she can't. But then I tested Fayde disjointing Andro's comet with reflection under a revelation ward and she did disjoint it.

So she doesn't dispell but disjoints, like I said before. Which makes you wrong again, Skyve :D

[`11411181]

I can list off a ****ton of spells like that and exaggerate their actual potential. That was the point of my little spiel; everyone in here talks like this spell is the alpha and omega, but nobody else sees it - and for good reason, it's not there.

Also, a straight buff to make an 85 mana 1.6sec duration Witch Slayer-esque stun is not a baby step in any sane sense of the term. Stance change being removed in favour of a large AoE superior slow is not a baby step in any sane sense of the term.
All this bullshit about the clearvision on only ONE of her spells only ever gives the indication that people want an insignificant nerf to happen to protect the more bullshit parts of the hero.

[FurryTuna]

I can list off a ****ton of spells like that and exaggerate their actual potential. That was the point of my little spiel; everyone in here talks like this spell is the alpha and omega, but nobody else sees it - and for good reason, it's not there.

Also, a straight buff to make an 85 mana 1.6sec duration Witch Slayer-esque stun is not a baby step in any sane sense of the term. Stance change being removed in favour of a large AoE superior slow is not a baby step in any sane sense of the term.
All this bullshit about the clearvision on only ONE of her spells only ever gives the indication that people want an insignificant nerf to happen to protect the more bullshit parts of the hero.

Yup, I agree wholeheartedly. When they changed Fayde's BS from 1 to 1.6 seconds, I appealed, saying she was already buffed too much. Unfortunately, people didn't give two ****s about my warnings. She is slowly being discovered, as you can see her getting picked more frequently (even in games that don't have Magebane). I think her success rate speaks for herself, if you have been following the latest HON casts :D

[Lethe]

Well, they definitely removed a ton of skill needed to play the hero, I'll say that much.

anakha is also right about the other changes. Deep shadows and burning shadow buff has netted me far more kills/assists than clear vision, something that I've always considered to be a crutch anyway.

Dont tell me you are incapable of ganking without clear vision. Tree walking already makes it easy enough.

[FurryTuna]

Well, they definitely removed a ton of skill needed to play the hero, I'll say that much.

anakha is also right about the other changes. Deep shadows and burning shadow buff has netted me far more kills/assists than clear vision, something that I've always considered to be a crutch anyway.

Dont tell me you are incapable of ganking without clear vision. Tree walking already makes it easy enough.

I have pushed for smaller clear-vision, like 600 / 700 / 800, and/or gutting tree-walking. You said when this rework came out initially that you do think that clear-vision + tree-walking is problematic. And I agreed with you back then and I still do today.

She has been slowly buffed into a place where she is just too useful to pass up. Unlike most other gankers, if Fayde has lost that window of opportunity where she shines most, she will still remain a very useful (initiating or intel-giving) asset till end-game.

Gankers, by design, are suppose to fall off past mid-game. Fayde, however, has surpassed such drawbacks and is now among the elite gankers. (staying relevant, all-game).

[Skyve]

But then I tested Fayde disjointing Andro's comet with reflection under a revelation ward and she did disjoint it.

Interesting, I always thought that precisely that shouldn't happen.

[`11411181]

Disjoints are hard-coded in HoN, as opposed to DotA where they are a byproduct of 0.1sec windwalk.

fox, when you agree with someone that disagrees with your exact position and then restate it again verbatim the next post, you look like a moronyou haven't actually read what they're saying and realize the implications of that. Just saying.

[foxmindedguy]

No, Anakha. I agreed that she was over-buffed. My emphasis was on her ultimate, but when you pointed out that it was also her stun duration buff and deep shadows. I couldn't refute it because she got buffed in all departments, while she only needed minor adjustments.

Unless, you are talking about some other reply of mine, in which case I have no clue why I would do that. :D

[Antimodus]

The superior slow being superior is plain bs. I don't have ANY idea why it needs to be superior. Why should fayde be able to get away from a farmed carry with shrunken, when any other ganker or supporter gets wrecked by one if they fail their "gank" or initiation?

[FurryTuna]

I think it's superior because if Fayde has shrunken, she should still get the MS buff.

See Jeraziah's heal: It doesn't work or can't be activated on magic immuned allies.

[LongDonSilva]

fray abused her lvl1 stun pretty effectively versus msi in the csn finals. support fayde ftw....

[ChaiHot]

Clearvision is the only problem, imo. It needs to be < 600 at level 1 ult, since it lets her tower dive with a stun a little bit _too_ easily at level 6.

[PlayeroJ]

I can list off a ****ton of spells like that and exaggerate their actual potential. That was the point of my little spiel; everyone in here talks like this spell is the alpha and omega, but nobody else sees it - and for good reason, it's not there.

Also, a straight buff to make an 85 mana 1.6sec duration Witch Slayer-esque stun is not a baby step in any sane sense of the term. Stance change being removed in favour of a large AoE superior slow is not a baby step in any sane sense of the term.
All this bullshit about the clearvision on only ONE of her spells only ever gives the indication that people want an insignificant nerf to happen to protect the more bullshit parts of the hero.

Truth. In no way was the 1/1.5/2/25 -> 1.6/1.9/2.2/2.5 buff warranted. I made a thread about this when it happened too, unfortunately nobody else agreed.

edit: nerf, lol

[Uroefl]

In lower brackets of the matchmaking Fayde seems like a very strong hero but if you have wards up, don't see a fayde you stay back, the early levels she will not be able to stay in her ultimate form for long.
Also she's only magical damage so a vestment and/or a barrier idol will honestly weaken her down in the end, I think she's a pretty balanced hero as she is now.

[LordTroll]

She is also countered by pubtraining 24/7, which seems to be very common these days when a team of desperate bads meet a smurf / very good player going 10-0 in 10 minutes...

Of course, they're countering themselves if you have a decent carry freefarming the whole time they're holding each other's dicks not to get killed. )

[`SunTzu]

in my experience with and against fayde in the 1500-1700 MMR range, she has been pretty underwhelming. if a team uses:

1.) teamwork
2.) wards (blue and red)
3.) dust
4.) eye

they stand a much better chance of dealing with her.

then again, this is in the low MMR range, so comp play will obviously differ greatly.

[MushidoZ]

in my experience with and against fayde in the 1500-1700 MMR range, she has been pretty underwhelming. if a team uses:

1.) teamwork
2.) wards (blue and red)
3.) dust
4.) eye

they stand a much better chance of dealing with her.

To that I would reply that

1) seeing an invisible hero coming / beside you is not saving you 100% if the invisible hero you're fighting against has high movespeed, passes at places you cannot see most of the time and still can one shot you with a cheap mana cost and a low cooldown combo.

2) teamwork work both ways (and Fayde happens to help HER team hard with a ranged aoe stun with low cooldown, high dmg dealing potential and a mana burn attack)

3) buying just one of the items you mentioned, that means someone in the game will lose around 1000 gold (for 1 ward of each / 1 dust and 1 eye), and that in games with such heroes in it, you have to buy so much more of those wards the one buying them will likely spend something like 3000 or 5000 gold on wards and reveals. THen, refer to 1 ^^

Carries with invisibility happen to be freaking strong, and Fayde is one of them. I believe she does need a nerf (but I'm of the position that many heroes need massive nerf anyway, if not complete remake)

One of the solution I would personally propose is to make reveals and wards last waaaaaay longer. That way, it is gold efficient and a possible solution for those buying them, without making them near useless for the rest of the game, and makes counterwarding end up equalizing the gold spent on each team spent on wards and reveals (even if the other team doesn't have an inviz hero)

[`11411181]

I spend 1000g on reveal per invis hero every game too!

[foxmindedguy]

There is a glitch with Fayde at the moment, where she can not target her stunned opponents until the burning shadow illusions expire. Until the glitch is fixed, she should not see further success in competitive scenes.

I just wanted to point out one of the reasoning behind why Fayde is not doing so hot in the competitive scene. Although picked a lot in conjunction with Nymphora, she hasn't had the performance that she had prior to the glitch when picked.

[Glibber`]

Ye that bug is a bit weird. Afaik you can attack move though.

Anyway, the physical slow seems really off to me. No idea why that's there in the first place (ah well we got artillery with his ridiculous lrm so why not on fayde).

Maybe lower the stun duration or the uptime of her ult a bit.


She's squishy, has poor awful stat gain, her burst damage is not thát high and the travel time on the stun is high enough to respond to it (blink, shrunken etc).

Proper warding, positioning and game sense (perhaps combined with tree clearing abilities) reduce a lot of her potential though. Not to mention tundra with an eye.

[IceHism]

Fayde is balanced, i don't get why people always want to nerf new heroes that just get on to the scene (like cuthuluphant) When heroes like dsham, valkyrie, tempest, and pebbles are almost always picked up in every game. Plague rider and Torturer too.

Her reflection is not at all op. She jsut gets tree walking and clear vision which lets her gank. Her burst damage is really weak compared to pebbles. She makes up for that in utility while pebbles can actually carry a game.

I think she is in the PERFECT spot right after they fix the glitch. HoN already has A **** TON of damage thrown throughout the game. You're not going to reduce it unless you want longer games or you rebalance EVERY hero. Which i am not a fan of at all.

Fayde is not overcentralizing. She is balanced.

[`11411181]

"HoN already has A **** TON of damage thrown throughout the game. You're not going to reduce it unless you want longer games or you rebalance EVERY hero."

History says otherwise.

[Znuffle]

So ****ing true everything you said.. its not the tree movement that makes her unbalanced.. its the stun duration and CD of spells that makes her a big pain for everyone..
Compared to other hero picks she just beats most of them out there in potential of team fight's and ganks..

[foxmindedguy]

So ****ing true everything you said.. its not the tree movement that makes her unbalanced.. its the stun duration and CD of spells that makes her a big pain for everyone..
Compared to other hero picks she just beats most of them out there in potential of team fight's and ganks..

You guys have got to be kidding me. Fayde had the same 2.5 seconds 800 line stun before the rework. Yes, it has gotten better early game, but it is not game-breaking as you guys are making it out to be.

What is completely retarded is her ability to tree-walk and provide vision. There is little to nothing you can do about her initiation, other than grouping up as soon as you stop seeing Fayde on the mini-map. In which case, you are crippling your farm.

Before the tree-walking and clear-vision BS, disabling her ganking potential was not too hard. All you had to do was place a revelation ward where your carry was farming and you were set.

The fact that her burst was buffed (Cull deals 280 instead of 250) and her utility was super-buffed (Vision on everything but cull, longer stun earlier on) makes her the monster she is today.

Anakha might be good at attacking people's logic, making them sound dumb. And yes I do sometimes second guess my reasoning after reading his replies, but the fact still remains, take away Clear-vision and tree-walking from Fayde and she will go back to being balanced (hence, she will eventually disappear from the competitive scene because you have to be somewhat overpowered to be exploited at that level).

The STUN going from 1 - 2.5 seconds to 1.6 - 2.5 seconds is not the problem. The problem is her utility. If you don't believe me, simply imagine Fayde without clear-vision and tree-walking and with a 1.6 - 2.5 seconds stun.

Before the rework I had suggested that her shadow-cripple damage potential should be independent of whether or not she has used spells while in reflection form. Which meant that (like scout right now), she could apply her DOT even if she opened with burning shadows out of her ultimate. She still needed to go and auto the enemy. I think that would have been a better fix instead of tree-walking and clear-vision. But now we are stuck with this.

I can assure you that reverting the lvl 1 stun duration from 1.6 seconds to 1 second won't make her significantly less favorable than she is right now. Gimping her ability to tree-walk and provide decent vision when in reflection form is a different story.

TL;DR- Take away her tree-walking, restrict clear-vision to be 600 / 700 / 800 per level of reflection, make her be able to apply her DOT even if she stunned or culled out of invisibility. There, Fayde is now fixed. Her initiation has been improved but it is not unfeasible to counter her.

[LordTroll]

She needs at least her tree-walking. It makes up for her lesser sustained damage compared to other gankers by granting her early mobility / positioning exploitation, as opposed to pure damage, aka Pebbles (her combo damage really isn't remarkable when you think about it, the ult has quite the cooldown and her skills too).

[foxmindedguy]

She needs at least her tree-walking. It makes up for her lesser sustained damage compared to other gankers by granting her early mobility / positioning exploitation, as opposed to pure damage, aka Pebbles (her combo damage really isn't remarkable when you think about it, the ult has quite the cooldown and her skills too).

Not really. If you allow her to be able to stun from 800 range (while invisible) and then walk up to the stunned target and apply her DOT with an auto, then she got the initiation down, but it is counter-able and she doesn't have the absurd utility she holds right now.

[Quillenator]

The clearvision I feel is definitely a problem, the mechanic alone seems to the biggest avantage any hero can have.

[PzKw]

Free ns aga ulti at level 6?

[`11411181]

"And yes I do sometimes second guess my reasoning after reading his replies, but the fact still remains..."

a.k.a.

I know my reasons aren't sound at all, but I still blindly believe that is the problem.

[foxmindedguy]

"And yes I do sometimes second guess my reasoning after reading his replies, but the fact still remains..."

a.k.a.

I know my reasons aren't sound at all, but I still blindly believe that is the problem.

Nope, it is mostly out of respect for a fellow Frostburn and HOTBL holder. But then I remember, you only get joy out of nickel and diming people's statements. Sorry to tell you but you are wrong here.

Clear-vision in conjunction with tree-walking is the problem, not the 1.6 level one stun. Hammerstorm has a 0.4 second longer level one stun with a 100 bigger targetable range and a ~162,743 units bigger area of effect {In case you were wondering, the formula is Pi*(300^2) - (800*150)}.

Or what about Witch Slayer: longer disables, faster cast-times, higher burst, ranged, ranged ultimate that has higher nuking potential?

Yes, comparisons like these are mostly irrelevant because different heroes have different roles. Regardless, there should never be a spot for Fayde if Witch Slayer is available (unless to counter MB). Yet Fayde is being picked over Witch Slayer? How is that possible? Is it the 0.58 / 0.38 / 0.18 / -0.02 longer stun duration? Nope, not really.

It is the clear-vision and tree-walking! The fact that she can simply scout the enemy's location without them really being able to catch her (even with eye) is just down-right wrong. Argue away!

[PrestonLee]

TL;DR- Take away her tree-walking, restrict clear-vision to be 600 / 700 / 800 per level of reflection, make her be able to apply her DOT even if she stunned or culled out of invisibility. There, Fayde is now fixed. Her initiation has been improved but it is not unfeasible to counter her.Might as well give her back her stances so I can main her again; welcome back to trash-tier Fayde, the only thing you had going for you was taken away because the guy that wanted you buffed so much in the past wants to nerf you back to ****-tier again!

Your posts are so funny, I enjoy reading them not so much because they have good content, but rather because you're all over the place lol. :p

[Skyve]

Actually the reason Fayde got picked over WS the last time I saw her in a competitive game was the higher stun duration on a cheaper skill.

She also was used as a support that game by the only team that has, as far as I have 'recently' seen used WS as a solo.

Plus, I'm not even sure there is any big problem with Fayde.

So what if she can scout enemies without them being able to do much about it (counterwards in trees help)? Tundra can do that too without actually having to dedicate a hero to that. And he doesn't lose it once you attack someone.

Besides, just because she can do something other heroes can't doesn't mean we should nerf it.

[foxmindedguy]

Actually the reason Fayde got picked over WS the last time I saw her in a competitive game was the higher stun duration on a cheaper skill.

There have been quite a lot of other matches (some even casted on HONcast) where Fayde has been picked and Witch Slayer has not been picked. She has been used from being a side-lane support to being a ganker mid. People are trying her in different scenarios because they see the potential.

But for now I suppose you can close the thread, because majority of the people here feel Fayde is completely fine (or the problem is not with the Reflection but burning shadows, which is not the premise of this thread. The original post emphasizes on how new reflection is the root cause of her overwhelming strength at the moment).

[Cyber_Kun]

I love how you want the thread to be closed because we disagree that Reflection is the issue and that isn't the original point of the thread.

The original point of this thread was to discus Fayde and how is she balance wise.

[LoLPlaya_]

Vindicator was already reworked, please don't change more niche heroes. Fayde is unique, BECAUSE he can walk through trees. Change that and you lose an interesting aspect of the game

[Emasym]

Can we just fix Burning Shadows so the clones don't spawn on TOP of the enemy? Thanks

[vvolfster]

Haha 119449494449994's sheeps will agree to whatever he says. The person only posts one-liners, providing no argument whatsoever and majority of the moderators seem to blindly accept his words as prophecy.

Contrast that with reasonings provided by everyone else on the forum. Before the forum troll said burning shadows was the problem (without much explanation), everyone was providing REAL reasons why they thought or didn't think reflection was the problem.

Burning shadows being 1.6 seconds for level 1 is not a problem. The logic is simple, melee heroes that have stun DO start with stun durations above the standard 1 second, some examples:
Moraxus: 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 / 2.5
Pandamonium: 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25
Cthuluphant: 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25
Hammerstorm: 2
Blacksmith: 1.5
Pebbles: 2
Gemini: 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2
Geomancer: 1.5
Magmus: 2.15
Drunken Master: 1.5
Gladiator: 1.53
Rampage: 1.15

Of course there are some exceptions to the rule but majority of the melee heroes start their stun duration longer than 1 second.

In case I am not coming through, let me put it in a way your sheepish minds are accustomed to, "What everyone is not seeing is that stun duration on Fayde is not a problem. HURR HURR"

[Skyve]

The stun duration in an isolated environment may not be the problem, but added onto a skill that has, out of all those above the longest range and the lowest manacost (especially compared to manapool) it could be.

Moraxus comes close with 90 mana, but horrible range (not as easily useable as Fayde's).
Magmus has 400 range.
Hammer's costs 55 mana more per cast, and Fayde is capable of 3 stuns with her lvl1 manapool compared to Hammerstorm who has 14 base int.
Pebbles: Lower Range and Mana issues
Blacksmith: Single Targeted (+ lower range, mana should be 75 so cheaper)

Point is: With her 1 second stun of lvl1 all the comparisons above didn't matter, but with her stun being that much better, they do, and Fayde compares in pretty much any area (regarding her stun, primarily on lower levels, since lvl4 of the skill wasn't changed, and lvl3 is only a 10% increase over the old version) very, very well now.

+ There's the vision and potential attack modifier abuse for Fayde.

[`11411181]

/snip

Don't be mad that I have enough credibility to not have to spell little things out for everyone and you don't.

Also, turns out little cutie can't even read:

If Fayde is going to have issues, it will be with her Andromeda-cheap AoE stun at level 1 >_>.

Also, a straight buff to make an 85 mana 1.6sec duration Witch Slayer-esque stun is not a baby step in any sane sense of the term.

Never implied Fayde at large was an issue, just pointing out that it's not the clearvision that's even anywhere near the strongest parts of the hero that could potentially be an issue.
But don't you worry your pretty little head about all that when you've got a point to make, damnit!

[Ekamo]

... majority of the moderators seem to blindly accept his words as prophecy.Since when did my (or any of the other moderators') opinion about any of your opinions matter at all? Your point is valid, and your attempt to justify it with numbers is appreciated, but what does that even have to do with the moderators? k, thanks.


`11411181[/FONT]]Don't be mad that I have enough credibility to not have to spell little things out for everyone and you don't.
You still kinda do though. When you make a claim, you give yourself a burden a proof for said claim.

Applies to EVERYONE.

[Fairy_]

He doesn't "kinda" do. He DEFINITELY does. It's just annoying and adds nothing the way he posts. Yes there are garbage posts all the time on balance, but him being a vague dick is equally trash

[Reldnahc]

Her "rework" was an abomination. Give me back an interesting fayde that has to choose between physical/magic damage and what aoe type of stun she wants. Treewalking wasn't interesting in the slightest. It was their makeshift fix for Fayde to utilize invis and ganking, something that could almost be called oxymoronic at higher levels of play. Not to mention there was no thought or effort put into Deep Shadows. They wanted to give her something that would be "utility", but not something that could further her ganking power. Sad thing is that it was just plain boring and lacked flavor unlike Stances. I cannot express how much hatred I have for the lame Treewalking though. Killed the hero flavor wise.

[foxmindedguy]

Might as well give her back her stances so I can main her again; welcome back to trash-tier Fayde, the only thing you had going for you was taken away because the guy that wanted you buffed so much in the past wants to nerf you back to ****-tier again!

So what you are saying is that Fayde is **** without clear-vision and tree-walking on reflection. That the reworked reflection is the root cause behind her being picked in the competitive scene (where mostly OP heroes are picked because money is on the line).

You are saying that gutting tree-walking and clear-vision from her reflection would take her back into ****-tier even if the stun duration stays at 1.6 seconds at level 1. OK your vote is duly noted.

Preston Lee: "Level 1 Stun duration is not the problem. It is the utility from reflection that has made competitors pick her among other exploitable heroes".

[`11411181]

He doesn't "kinda" do. He DEFINITELY does. It's just annoying and adds nothing the way he posts. Yes there are garbage posts all the time on balance, but him being a vague dick is equally trash

Nothing I've said is vague, and stating a counter-opinion isn't being a dick. Sorry you seem to have a grudge for whatever reason.

[SirVH]

People complaining about her level 1 stun should take a look at Behemott.

[LordTroll]

People complaining about her level 1 stun should take a look at Behemott.

Which is why Behemoth's Fissure got nerfed not to be at the peak of its efficiency from level 1 with the ever-lasting terrain block.

Not to mention it's nowhere near as cost-effective as Fayde's, comparing mana pools and growth. And it can easily be a slight hinderance when it has to be used as just a quick stun.

[Ascaeus]

People complaining about her level 1 stun should take a look at Behemott.

I don't think you understand what has been said.

Besides, it's okay for other stuns to be better than Fayde's, that could still make Fayde's problematic because she has other perks to combine that stun with that other heroes may not have.

Fact remains that the buff to Faydes stun put it in the category of "best lvl1 stuns".

Fact is also that many people haven't said that the stun is the problem, but that that would be the first thing they would look into when considering nerfing the hero.

[Fairy_]

Nothing I've said is vague, and stating a counter-opinion isn't being a dick. Sorry you seem to have a grudge for whatever reason.


I don't. I firmly believe you have the best posts here when you actually post, but there are MANY times where all you do is make a smartass comment about how the person you're quoting is retarded and then leave it at that.

[Dominare]

I think she's fine as well. She's surely a specialized hero as opposed to the utility-knife Midas/Aluna type, so she needs to be strong in her role to compensate for it being so limited. This is true in the general case - the more narrow a hero's role, the better they need to be at it to be viable.

Nobody is going to want to pick hero X if hero Y can do the same job just as well AND do a few other things if necessary. See for example the way Hellbringer is MIA from matches these days, because his role as a (counter-) initiator is entirely eclipsed by someone like KotF who can do what he does just as well AND gives you massive early push AND gives you an extra solo.

[SirVH]

Not to mention it's nowhere near as cost-effective as Fayde's
What? Split someone on the lane with fissure and it's good as dead, you can't say Fayde's level 1 stun is a guarantee kill like fissure is.




Fact remains that the buff to Faydes stun put it in the category of "best lvl1 stuns".

And that's not game breaking at all. Sure she can help on a trilane gank or something, but on level 1 her stun is all she can do.


On topic: she's balanced. She's those heroes hard to deal with, she's annoying but for sure not overpowered.

[Ekamo]

What? Split someone on the lane with fissure and it's good as dead, you can't say Fayde's level 1 stun is a guarantee kill like fissure is.



And that's not game breaking at all. Sure she can help on a trilane gank or something, but on level 1 her stun is all she can do.


On topic: she's balanced. She's those heroes hard to deal with, she's annoying but for sure not overpowered.

You don't prove your opinion by using your opinion as evidence ><

If you think something, be sure it is clear WHY. Having one of the best level 1 stuns for a very low mana-cost seems like a very dangerous combination in my ears, so you will have to be a little more convincing than that.

[SirVH]

You don't prove your opinion by using your opinion as evidence ><

I don't need to prove a opinion, I need to prove something I state as a fact. I just said my opinion and that's all, everyone is free to disagree. My opinion is based on how many games I played her, which doesn't mean is the truth, it's just my point of view.



If you think something, be sure it is clear WHY.

And I do. As I stated there, I don't think the level 1 stun is a issue since she got nothing else on that level. Her attack damage is low, her attack animation is mediocre, she's slow and so go on. Once again, this is MY OPINION, is not a FACT, so I don't need to prove my opinion.

[Skinsword]

I honestly think that she is fine the way she is right now. Almost every one of her skills is something unique that no other characters have. For the most part, it doesn't make her overpowered. I believe that she dominates mid game but if the other team has carries, she quickly tapers off.

[Tomate]

Are you guys seriously calling Fayde OP?

I find that Fayde is in about as sweet of a spot as no other hero... She saw some action competitively, she's being ignored completely quite often, she doesn't take over games and the list goes on...

Fayde is probably the hero I see as being in the best spot as far as balance goes, picked once in a while, ignored often, banned rarely. This is where all heroes should be if the game actually was balanced. We have a pool of over 100 heroes, yet we see 25 heroes virtually all the time and 75 ignored...

[Alten]

The fact remains that Tundra is far more problematic that Fayde is in terms of "utility." Yeah, Fayde has more burst, but "effectively nonlethal (until codex or with a highly unlikely severe level advantage), mostly single target burst from a melee hero" is not nearly so important in a higher tier match when there's enough damage flying around to kill most heroes in seconds (or to lock them down long enough that the dps doesn't matter) just from the ridiculous propensity of aoe and other effective means of damage conveyance/disable that is seen on many comp. heroes (pebbles, valk, polly, tundra, etc.). It's really just a matter of how much effective utility these heroes have, and they all outscore Fayde in all the ways that matter. It's not even an issue of how powerful she is mid, because a good tundra will almost certainly beat out her and many other comparable heroes. You see tundra so much more often than a Fayde because of this; he does everything that she does (except invis, but invis is an unreliable mechanism as it stands and Tundra can become drastically more effective in the same way with a pkey [and this doesn't even get into the ridiculousness of a post haste on the hero]) in different ways, and has additional utility beyond what they share. In almost every instance she has been picked in the comp. scene, it's been to counter MB.

Sorry for all of the parentheses and general rambling, but it's just irritating to see Tundra mostly ignored in all of this fayde bashing.

[foxmindedguy]

The fact remains that Tundra is far more problematic that Fayde is in terms of "utility." Yeah, Fayde has more burst, but "effectively nonlethal (until codex or with a highly unlikely severe level advantage), mostly single target burst from a melee hero" is not nearly so important in a higher tier match when there's enough damage flying around to kill most heroes in seconds (or to lock them down long enough that the dps doesn't matter) just from the ridiculous propensity of aoe and other effective means of damage conveyance/disable that is seen on many comp. heroes (pebbles, valk, polly, tundra, etc.). It's really just a matter of how much effective utility these heroes have, and they all outscore Fayde in all the ways that matter. It's not even an issue of how powerful she is mid, because a good tundra will almost certainly beat out her and many other comparable heroes. You see tundra so much more often than a Fayde because of this; he does everything that she does (except invis, but invis is an unreliable mechanism as it stands and Tundra can become drastically more effective in the same way with a pkey [and this doesn't even get into the ridiculousness of a post haste on the hero]) in different ways, and has additional utility beyond what they share. In almost every instance she has been picked in the comp. scene, it's been to counter MB.

Sorry for all of the parentheses and general rambling, but it's just irritating to see Tundra mostly ignored in all of this fayde bashing.

Tundra does provide vision like Fayde, but needs post haste + portal key to port onto the bird in the trees and then pk'ing out of them to stun a single target. Compare this to Fayde, who uses this newly gifted vision and tree-walking to know the exact position of their enemies without any wards or ability to be detected, and once the enemy team is in the right position (as in lined-up for the burning shadows to hit them), she can simply shoot her 800 line stun from within the trees (no need to apply shadow cripple, as compromising the perfect environment for her burning shadows can be ruined in the time she walks out of trees and auto-attacks a person) and let her team follow up on the disabled enemy team.

Of course, balance is subjective for the most part. In my eyes AOE stunning the team for 2.5 seconds should be weighted above stunning only one person for 3-4 seconds. With that said, I feel the only thing holding Fayde back from being a sure-fire pick at the moment is her squishiness, which effects her mostly pre-level 6. As per her being picked only to counter Magebane, I think I have seen about 4 games where she was picked without the opponent picking Magebane.

[Hsssh]

Tundra does provide vision like Fayde, but needs post haste + portal key to port onto the bird in the trees and then pk'ing out of them to stun a single target.

This is rather absurd comparison but for arguments sake you should not forget that Fayde has to walk there while Tundra can port to his bird from another lane.


Compare this to Fayde, who uses this newly gifted vision and tree-walking to know the exact position of their enemies without any wards or ability to be detected, and once the enemy team is in the right position (as in lined-up for the burning shadows to hit them), she can simply shoot her 800 line stun from within the trees (no need to apply shadow cripple, as compromising the perfect environment for her burning shadows can be ruined in the time she walks out of trees and auto-attacks a person) and let her team follow up on the disabled enemy team.

So you are saying that enemy team is going to stand in line when playing against Fayde? One of most common tips when playing against heroes with line stuns like Witch slayer or Magmus is to not stand in one line, i see no reason why players would suddenly ignore this when playing against Fayde.

[foxmindedguy]

This is rather absurd comparison but for arguments sake you should not forget that Fayde has to walk there while Tundra can port to his bird from another lane.

Um... The bird also has to walk there and the bird is much slower than Fayde.. Unless you are saying that Tundra can continue to farm lane while Shiver slowly but surely moves to a different position for a gank, thus he is not missing on xp or gold. So there are pros and cons then of having reflection over shiver and vice-versa.


So you are saying that enemy team is going to stand in line when playing against Fayde? One of most common tips when playing against heroes with line stuns like Witch slayer or Magmus is to not stand in one line, i see no reason why players would suddenly ignore this when playing against Fayde.

Hm... OK if the competitors are always synergizing their positions to make it harder for Fayde to come out of the trees and stun at least 3-4 of them, then I see no problem with her. If and only if this were true, I do find it hard though, but I will believe you.

[Skyve]

Um... The bird also has to walk there and the bird is much slower than Fayde.

The bird is not a hero spending his time walking/waiting/hiding. It's also not "much slower" by level 3 of the ability, which you can actually have before Faydes ultimate.


Hm... OK if the competitors are always synergizing their positions to make it harder for Fayde to come out of the trees and stun at least 3-4 of them, then I see no problem with her. If and only if this were true, I do find it hard though, but I will believe you.

We actually have seen competitors place wards of revelation into trees to make a Fayde that attempts a gank visible.

[Imjelly]

400 movement speed + fly over any terrain is slower than Fayde, really?

[foxmindedguy]

The bird is not a hero spending his time walking/waiting/hiding.

I just mentioned that in my previous post. Stating how reflection has pros and cons over shiver + tp + pk method.


It's also not "much slower" by level 3 of the ability, which you can actually have before Faydes ultimate.

But Tundra does not have portal key + post haste by level 3 of the ability. Also Fayde with Striders has MS of 1.10(300 + 150)= 495, which is a lot more than 400.


We actually have seen competitors place wards of revelation into trees to make a Fayde that attempts a gank visible.

I haven't had the chance of witnessing those games, maybe that's why my perspective on Fayde is what you would call "flawed". The 10+ games I have seen her picked, she dominated in most cases (even as long lane support) and I think 2-3 of them were where she was picked without Magebane on the opponent team. But if you have witnessed her initiation attempts being interrupted on a frequent basis in the competitive setting then I would say that she is not as problematic as I make her out to be.

[SirVH]

Fox, you're trying to prove Fayde is somewhat overpowered since they changed her ultimate. I've seen people countering Fayde with wards on specific places on the trees. For example, if you're on legion side, get a revelation near the rune spot, and on the left entrance to your jungle. You'll always see her getting in.

As your comparison with Tundra, set a ward on the trees and get the bird around, you'll have full vision of her. As for the stun, what's the difference of a Fayde coming from the trees to stun a team on a line, and a Magmus/Witch Slayer with a portal key? That's right, you can counter fayde doing that, you can't on PK case.

[foxmindedguy]

SirVH: Fayde can also do the same thing if she gets a PK (and we see it happening more often than not in the competitive games). However, Magmus and Witch Slayer with PK are a bigger threat than Fayde with PK.

Anyway, as you and many other people have assured me that Fayde is counterable (and have been countered frequently) despite the tree-walking and clear-vision amenities, I think then there is nothing much to discuss here.

Unless someone still wants to debate a nerf on her Burning Shadows stun duration for the first 3 levels.

[SirVH]

About the vision and tree walking, we already discussed that. Having Fayde on another team will force most of the teams to get revelation wards and/or a eye. If the other team gets a eye, say good bye to that ward before the tower when you're pushing because it will always be countered, and the clear vision + tree walking is a risky compentation for that.

Fayde for me is pretty balanced, but sometimes I feel that she's even underpowered. She provides a "counter that can be counterable" against heroes like Tempest (preventing his initiation), Mage Bane and Hag, but in the end of the day she's a single target ganker, she depends on items (codex, pbox) do deal damage, on a high cooldown and she's squishy. A bracer + mystic vestiments is enough to prevent her to killing the targets she ganks. Compare that to Pebbles for example. He can handle more damage, his combo is ready every 20 seconds and his auto attacks are decent. Toss also gives him some sort of strategy, when he can't insta kill a target or even when you have a key hero that don't have this portal key yet (Tempest or Lego for example).

Still comparing gankers, Deadwood can root people and prevent blinks and stuff from the fog, Valk can stun from fog aswell, devo can hook, Pharaoh can jump from a huge distance and wall + ministun the ones he got inside.

About utility, Andromeda can isolate a key target from the other team, BH can prevent your movement from distance and still silence you up to 9 seconds, Nymphora can TP herself and another hero(es) with her anywhere on the map (and I think that's broken btw), Gauntlet can hook to you or you to him from a great distance including on the fog and the list go on.

Overall, I think she's balanced because she provides counters to specific heroes that are too hard to counter, but sometimes I feel she's underpowered because she needs items to deal damage. If she fails 2 ganks, she's nearly useless on the game, having vision and the line stun her only utility on the game. Remove that and she's a complete trash.

[PzKw]

Wait, are people arguing that Bird provides less overall map control than fayde's ulti?

Because, you know, they're very different abilities...

[Strangejuice]

No hard counter??????? WHAT!!!!

Ok he's called Pharo... Perhaps you've heard of him? I know he's only been in the game since early beta but but surely you all have seen him once or twice.

Anywho for those who do not realise what he can do to a fayde here's the down low:

He ultys her and she dies. (you got your stun going and your wall up and if you can't kill her with all that going simply uninstall hon)
If she targets you early game (which is highly unlikely) her skills are not enough to scratch you for you are a sexy strength hero and she would probly be the one to end up dead. (mana drain? you will have enough don't stress it)
If she targets you late game and you do have an eye wall her. If she's coming from trees and you somehow lack the reflexes to press W before she gets to you then die and spend the next 50-60 seconds figuring out how to get better reflexes.
If she targets you late game and you don't have an eye then dude/girl dudes what the hell! You're facing a Fayde ffs buy an eye!

Basicly Pharo will shut Fayde down as soon as she comes out of her ult, you are of course required to stay very map aware and try to keep in ulty range of your team mates as much as possible, granted your team will spend most the game spread all over so prioritise the squish heroes for that is usually who a smart Fayde will aim.

What makes it so easy is that Fayde will spend 3-4 seconds standing completely still bursting off her combo on some unlucky soul (no pun intended on ss) so you can't really miss her and when you get there the fight suddenly becomes 2v1 and as for her 'OP' extended sight while her ults up well Pharo's ult range is vastly superior so she won't see you coming.

I pretty much always grab Pharo to counter Fayde and I cant think of a single time it's let me down so I encourage everyone to try it out.
The build is irrelevant (provided it's not derp) just grab an eye for later.
Also I've noticed it's very easy to smackdown her.