[2.5.16] Sacrificial Stone

[Skyve]

As we all know, Sacrificial Stone is an item that hasn't been used much since ages.

The only times we've seen it in competitive play it had been used by H4nn1 on Balphagore in recent times.

The interesting thing about the item is that it allows for a relatively easy upgrade to commonly used items like :HelmOfTheBlackLegio and :RingOfSorcery:. And yet, this option is never utilized, despite the fact that both these items lose in effectiveness as the game progresses, and disassembling them makes up for over half the cost of :SacrificialStone: - leaving only the :Glowstone: and :Manatube: to be bought for completion.

Apart from that, the item also provides another effect that is very much unique and very desireable in HoN due to a change to a significant part of the game a while ago:

Buybacks.

HoN has a limited amount of buybacks. This is very important, and something I can't stress enough, because this is what should give :SacrificialStone: a huge reason to be picked up - Sacrificial Stone is capable of "increasing" your effectively available buybacks, or rather limit the opponent teams ability to force you to buyback due to its ability to create your deathtimer by a large amount.
The only other item that can do that is :GraveLocket:, and that item does so much more efficiently if you look at it on a deathtime reduction per charge basis:
Gravelocket reduces the amount of time you spend dead by 10 seconds for one charge, while Sacrificial Stone requires 4 charges (-> 4 deaths assisted in without dying since you get 3 seconds lower deathtimer per charge) to outperform it.
Of course - Sacrificial Stone offers more potential, so it shouldn't be better than Grave Locket in a direct comparison per charge, but it also shouldn't lose out that much if you compare the difference in price - :SacrificialStone:'s components each cost more than :GraveLocket: does as a whole.

Of course - Sacrificial Stone also offers other effects beside the death timer reduction, but like I said, I feel that in HoN that reduction is the most significant part to the item as you do not have a limitless number of buybacks, so the ability to conserve them should be valued much more than it is.

That said, the item is rarely if ever picked up, and I do not doubt that most people don't even think about what the deathtimer reduction could actually do. And because of that, I feel that Sacrificial Stone's reduction in time spent dead per charge might be too low.
However, as the deathtimer depends on your level, a static reduction for every charge might be more difficult to balance as it could easily have a gigantic impact on earlier stages of the same, so maybe a percentage based system (~5-10% per charge?) would be a better solution, maybe even capped at a certain percentage so it will never grant an instant respawn (but then again - why shouldn't it?).

Another possibility why it isn't picked a lot could be that gaining charges takes a while, only for you to lose half of them on death. Since the item starts out on 0 charges, and you can't expect to gain charges easily or fast by the time you have it in every situation, picking it up could be incentivised by giving less punishment for not picking it up as your first item.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts on this?

[Gorb]

Tentatively approved. Don't disappoint me, folks.

And try to avoid attempting to discuss any potential reworks or changes "in the works", or speculation on said topic. It won't bring anything to this topic.

[QuagsireIn3D]

Well personally i think the item is fine, but i only buy if for luxury..
I guess it could need a buff on the respawn time thingy.

[XFlame]

Wasn't this item scheduled for a remake?

Sac Stone tries to offer a myriad of things to make up for the fact that it offers nothing but raw health and mana + reg without providing anything that really stands out, reduction timer + heal based on charges when you die makes no sense (as one mechanic essentially rewards you for staying alive, while the other mechanic 'rewards' your team when you die). It essentially tries to be a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, but falls short in that category as players are usually looking for something more specific to counter enemy damage (Nullstone/Heart/Deamonic/Helm/Barrier/Frostfield/Frostwolf).

For it to stand out from the crowd, it needs something to give it an edge. Make it more specialized. Drop certain parts of it while strengthening other parts. I'll quit here before I start making suggestions.

[Skyve]

reduction timer + heal based on charges when you die makes no sense (as one mechanic essentially rewards you for staying alive, while the other mechanic 'rewards' your team when you die).

Actually it's more abot giving the enemy a reason to kill you last (as killing you early would provide your team with a heal) + rewarding you for the kills/assists you collect while staying alive.


For it to stand out from the crowd, it needs something to give it an edge.If you read what I wrote it already has that, it probably just needs to build on that, at least in theory.

[Rosgath]

I think the biggest problem with it is gaining charges relative to the amount of farm it takes to get it. Grave Locket is popular because it's so cheap and easy to build that you can get it early and get a lot of effectiveness out of it. In order for Sac Stone to be effective you need so much farm that by the time you get it most of the potential to get charges during a good time in the game are gone.

[Skyve]

I think the biggest problem with it is gaining charges relative to the amount of farm it takes to get it. Grave Locket is popular because it's so cheap and easy to build that you can get it early and get a lot of effectiveness out of it. In order for Sac Stone to be effective you need so much farm that by the time you get it most of the potential to get charges during a good time in the game are gone.

That is not entirely true though. If you consider that Sac Stone CAN be gotten as a first item and has no more difficult buildup overall than HotBL (in fact, HotBL can be used as a "stepping stone") it can be gotten even before most ranged agility heroes finish their lvl3 shieldbreaker or Geometer's Bane. Which is early enough to make it matter and get a decent amount of charges.

[KaptainKRool]

Sacrificial stone is way underpowered and it will need a whole lot of buff in order to be used. Even in dota where it gives u 200% mana reg and comes with 5 charges from the beginning, it still isnt picked up, and if it is, its very questionable. I think it even comes down to the pace of the game.
The reduction in death time isnt as big as you would like it to be, in our face-pace games. The tihng that I really consider it to be very very good, is the heal after you die, but that means yuo lose alot of charges.

[Skyve]

It actually has been used in DotA(2) at least twice last week and reached 15+ charges both times.


The reduction in death time isnt as big as you would like it to be, in our face-pace games.

This might just be a numbers issue, which is why I said using a percentage might be beneficial for an effect such as this.

[Hubaris]

Its a problem with the way the item is designed. If you are doing well, the item continues to do well, but if you are doing poorly it gets worse and worse. Its a rolling stone of an item that doesn't give you any edge unless teams are already being killed. Whereas an item such as Shrunken Head or a well placed Nullstone can change the game at the point its gained, Sacrificial Stone requires some momentum before it can be of 'any' use (I say that very loosely as the health and mana is always technically useful).

All in all it needs a little bit of love because it offers no instant benefit on purchase towards the next team fight, and thus has trouble even being a rolling stone esque item because of that lack of instant benefit.

IMO of course. :scou:

EDIT: This is taking into account the item by itself and not dissembling different pieces to achieve it. That is a huge strength that I don't think is realized.

[PlayeroJ]

Given the price of the item, there's no way Sanc Stone isn't supposed to be a carry item, so I'm not sure why the charges go half in on this retarded support concept and half in on the carry concept. The regen per-charge is pretty terrible, but it'd be hard to buff because gaining significant regen through being near people who die would be OP. That being said, if it is supposed to be a carry item, shouldn't it gain charges on kills?

[XFlame]

It used to be like that (gave 2 health regen per charge, not sure about mana regen), but it didn't really work afaik. Way too limited.

[Gorb]

And try to avoid attempting to discuss any potential reworks or changes "in the works", or speculation on said topic. It won't bring anything to this topic.
Please bear this in mind. Posts deleted.

[PlayeroJ]

It used to be like that (gave 2 health regen per charge, not sure about mana regen), but it didn't really work afaik. Way too limited.

Then it should receive charges the same way it does then =\. Still think the regen could use a buff, as it stands this item's current functionality (survivability) blows.

[DorXaz]

I think that if you removed the need for a manatube and replaced it with a gravelocket it would be picked up more frequently. It would be a minor buff to the cost, while making the buildup that much more liberal, allowing players to pickup a gravelocket and then build it into the sacstone, or build a ring and then pull it apart and use it's pieces. It seems fitting to me that the one of the two charge on kill item be built into the other one.

//1600scrub

[Hubaris]

I would be inclined to agree but the reason that Grave Locket is so balanced for its cost is because it takes up a slot and doesn't build into anything. The item offers you stats and nothing more at the expense of an item slot and an investment which cannot grow into anything else.

As much as flavour is a huge part of me, I would say its not a wise decision to give more power to an already cost efficient item such as Grave Locket.

[GregerMoek]

Yeah I agree too. The Grave locket building into anything makes it even more OP.

[Vascariz]

Not so sure. Building it into a sacrificial stone is a very heavy investment. It doesn't make the Grave locket any more OP as it's the same stats during the same early levels. I can see many Grave locket users NOT moving into Sacrificial Stone until the very late game when they have exhausted all their other item slots. At which point the effect of the Grave locket is minimal.

Case in point, if you bought the Grave locket and was given 3-4k gold. Would you choose Sacrificial Stone as it currently stands? I would highly doubt it! I would still probably choose to sell the Grave locket and purchase a sheepstick, damage item, heart etc...

It only makes it easier to move into the Sacrifical Stone which will still be a niche item as it currently stands.

[GregerMoek]

Eh, if an item that is only made to be an early game item that is often later sold (think Power Supply) gets an upgrade it gets more powerful, no matter how you twist your logic.

If we got an upgrade to Power Supply it'd be more OP than it already is. I don't see how that's hard to realize.

The same can be said about Bulwark, while many just build the item without thinking of Daemonic in certain cases, it's still part of the power in the item. More options > less options.

[Gringos]

Yeah I agree too. The Grave locket building into anything makes it even more OP.

Why, is this the thread to discuss if :GraveLocket: is overpowered or not? If the item is indeed in dire need of a nerf, then tying it to :SacrificialStone: in the process would assure avoiding the death of it.

Even if that is not the case, :RingOfTheTeacher: is rumored to be the most powerful item in the game, yet nobody has a problem that it is used to build :NomesWisdom: or :AbyssalSkull:. Your logic seems flawed.

[Orchest]

Item intended to provide a mechanism for caster semicarries to hard carry, but requires you to be carrying already to get charges to let you carry. The on death effect is at odds with the rest of the item, and as I say every time we have this thread, in thousands of games I've used and seen it, the on death effect hasn't been even a minor factor in the outcome of the game.

Ie. needs substantial tweaks, on death or charge system being the best places to look.

[Vascariz]

Eh, if an item that is only made to be an early game item that is often later sold (think Power Supply) gets an upgrade it gets more powerful, no matter how you twist your logic.

Incorrect. It merely makes the ultimate item more powerful as it makes it easier to get to that ultimate item. Grave locket itself is as powerful as before.

What it means for the ultimate item is that if you were going to purchase a grave locket anyway, it means you don't have to farm up half the cost of the grave locket you lose if you sold it.

Further, grave locket is not taking up space in your slots as unlike the Bulwark or even the powersupply, grave locket is not a meaningful item mid-late game.

Finally, it also all depends on the ultimate item. Sacrificial stone as it currently stands is not a core item. There are much better items to go for with that gold. As such, all it means is, if you have a grave locket still, it may cross your mind now to get a sacrificial stone since you have a component piece. So no, I don't see how it makes grave locket more powerful. It merely reduces the financial burden of purchasing a sacrificial stone.

[Skyve]

Incorrect. It merely makes the ultimate item more powerful as it makes it easier to get to that ultimate item. Grave locket itself is as powerful as before.

No, what he says is right. The item slot you use for an item is an important part of its cost, and making an item that is supposed to be heavily balanced by using up an itemslot for what diminishes fast to a minor statboost gets an upgrade it becomes automatically better, because it's no longer "taking up" an item slot that you could fill better as such.

[aeowulf]

If you're dying alot, you're not getting charges, if you're living, you're not getting the items full effectiveness.

The price puts it in a place where if you get it at 25 minutes you might be doing well, but you're always going to be starting at a disadvantage over buying the other sustainability/survivability options. If you're getting it as your second or third luxury item you've missed out on a lot of the items potential as opposed to many items that scale upwards the later they are picked up in your buy order.

[Vascariz]

No, what he says is right. The item slot you use for an item is an important part of its cost, and making an item that is supposed to be heavily balanced by using up an itemslot for what diminishes fast to a minor statboost gets an upgrade it becomes automatically better, because it's no longer "taking up" an item slot that you could fill better as such.

I agree that the item slot you use for an item is an important part of its cost. However, it is an important part to the cost of the Sacrifical Stone not the Grave Locket. By this I mean, by the time you are considering investing heavily into a Sacrificial Stone, the Grave Locket is sellable and not a key consideration. Also, as Sacrificial Stone is not a core item, the decision to buy a Grave Locket is not heavily influenced by the later decision to invest in a Sacrificial Stone. Instead, it is merely an option for the Grave Locket instead of selling it.

Further, a Grave Locket should not be "taking up" an item slot when you are considering whether to purchase a Sacrifical Stone, in that it is not a competing item. By the time you are investing heavily into the Sacrificial Stone you should have either sold the Grave Locket and it's impact on your character is minimal.

This is completely different to considering an item like Frostwolf, Genjuro or S&Y. The important component pieces for those items are themselves heavy investments and are competing slot items. Further, selling those items are much higher gold hit than selling the grave locket.

[Metal]

The whole HoN community knows how imbalanced Sacrificail Stone and Mystic vestments are. Sacrificial stone is presented as a very expensive item with few benefits and mystic vestments as a core item providing almost 40% magic reduction for 400 gold. So i said to myself, what if we can combine :GraveLocket: + :MysticVestments: + :Sustainer: . If at the same time mystic vestments gets nerfed (not costwise) and we add the current benefit vestments give to sacrificial stone, we could instantly get a nerfed vestments and an improved :SacrificialStone: soon to be core on heroes like :krak: and :corr: . As of grave locket being even better, think of it like this. Grave locket is almost as good as a blessed orb (with a charge), so making the total cost of the Grave locket equal to 1000 would make it more balanced and it would result on a sacrificial stone with cost equal to 1000+400+1850=3250. With a little stats exchange for that magic armor it sounds preety balanced to me.

[MadPsycho]

You mention in your original post that Ring of Sorcery and Helm of the Black Legion can both split apart to help build up Sac Stone. Those items won't commonly be on the same hero, though. Ring of Sorcery benefits the entire team throughout the game, especially those heroes that are mana intensive. This, by its nature, frees up those mana intensive heroes to pursue other items. As for Helm of the Black Legion, a much more common transition is into Behemoth's heart, which gives instant massive health regeneration. The cost of Behemoth's heart is also only 550 more than the cost of a Sacrificial Stone. The big difference between the two is the instantaneous nature of the health regeneration. Since Sacrificial Stone starts with 0 charges it only begins with 6 hp regeneration/second. It just takes too long for Sacrificial Stone to become good. Not only is it costly, it offers only a mediocre increase in damage, only survivability. This means that it cannot make farming it easier as you build it up (compare to something like Hellflower). By the time you invest the necessary gold into this item, you will have sacrificed any killing potential that you would have otherwise had if you had invested in damage or utility items. Once you get it, you had better start getting kills and not dying. Furthermore, since Sac Stone doesn't increase your ability to dish out damage, you had better have a hero that can do well without items while.

Sacrificial Stone also offers no benefits to stats. Straight health and Mana are both good, which is why items like Helm of the Black Legion and Ring of Sorcery are picked up. I'm not saying that adding stats onto Sac Stone would be the way to go, I feel like the items that it uses are the correct items for what it gives and we don't need more stats items like Tablet or Grave Locket around.

Sac Stone is the Luxury's Luxury Item. Not only that, but it takes too long to become good. It needs to have the same treatment that it got in DotA2 or a rework for its components.

[rancewong]

Consider the cost of :SacrificialStone:, 4950 is not a small number and there is better choice in almost every situation.

Generally better pickup - :Nullstone:
Situational better pickup - :Hellflower::FrostfieldPlate::Mock::HarkonsBlade:

Not to mention :Puzzlebox:(lv3) :KuldrasSheepstick: :DaemonicBreastplate :BehemothsHeart:, these are all a few hundreds more.

If we're to balance this item, we should consider boost its specialty or the price to certain point that it shrines at least in some occasions.

[Kwanchie]

The bonuses provided by Sac Stone contradict each other. The +hp/mp, regen and charges suggest the item is made to make you live longer, while the on-death bonuses suggest that you die. Turn the heal somehow into an on-kill bonus to give it better presence. One idea: Temporary +x hp/mp regen on-kill by "sacrificing the target" (only for the holder, otherwise this becomes a supportive item)

[Qweret]

Sacrificial Stone has a very good buildup, providing you more hp, more mp, more regen, everything you need in the changing phase of early game to mid game.

The problem i see is that Nullstone is always(like rancewong said) a better pickup. Nullstone also provides stats instead of pure Hp, meaning, that you get armor, thats actually very important in the current meta.

Buying it as a Lategame-Item to get the effect of a reduced Death-Timer is a waste of that gold and of the item slot. You will hardly get more than 10 charges in lategame, only if you are dominating, and in that case you dont want more a death-timer-reduction. You want damage or some sort of cc.

It is really just the case, that it feels wrong to buy that item. It has nothing that can change a Teamfight or game. And to be serious, who ever saw that the effect of heal after death of Sacrificial Stone did change a teamfight? I did never.

You just have to look at all cases. In which one would you buy it over another item?
Losing? Get more hp and tankiness thorugh :SolsBulwark::HelmOfTheBlackLegio for less gold
Winning? You want damage and regeneration or cc or pushing capabilities for the team, you get other items like :Astrolabe::ShrunkenHead::RingOfSorcery: or any damage item
Defending?
Pushing?
Ganking?
Map control?
....

[SuperCommand]

What if you didn't lose charges on death? Or if you only lost 1?

[Gringos]

What if you didn't lose charges on death? Or if you only lost 1?

The way you lose charges got nerfed down to this stage because it was too strong when you used to just lose one on death, especially on torturer. If you just change it back, there is no gain.

[Skyve]

The way you lose charges got nerfed down to this stage because it was too strong when you used to just lose one on death, especially on torturer. If you just change it back, there is no gain.

Wasn't that nerfed back when it gave higher HP regen per charge?

[SuperCommand]

I think in it's current iteration it wouldn't be all THAT if you only lost 1 charge/none at all. Even with 20 charges you'd get only 500 HP and at the same time you'd get a unique scaling item.

[Skyve]

1 charge per death would be horribly broken, because at 20 charges you get 60 seconds less spent dead - which is a near instant respawn during the midgame (with close to no gold loss).

You not realizing that kinda makes me question if you even read the first post in this thread :/

[Rofflstomp]

The DOTA version starts with 6 charges and only loses 1/3 charges on death. Pretty easy to see why it's being picked up there and not here.

[Gorb]

Further, a Grave Locket should not be "taking up" an item slot when you are considering whether to purchase a Sacrifical Stone, in that it is not a competing item. By the time you are investing heavily into the Sacrificial Stone you should have either sold the Grave Locket and it's impact on your character is minimal.
Why should you have sold your Grave Locket?

Surely, if you wanted to benefit from the charge-based mechanic of Sacrificial Stone, you'd get it as one of your first items (and thus you'd have the inventory space to retain the incredibly useful Grave Locket) and not one of your last (by which point the game is ending and charges are unlikely to add up to such a degree)?

[PrestonLee]

Give Icon of the Goddess +3 armor and +3 magic armor on completion, trolol.

I'm not saying Sac Stone is fine (I don't have a strong opinion on it), but:
:RingOfSorcery:+:HelmOfTheBlackLegio -> disassemble -> :GraveLocket:+:SacrificialStone: and the whole reduced cooldown on death seems to be something overlooked in terms of usefulness, supports/tanky initiators can make great use out of it as the game goes on especially with all the benefits their team gets when dying.

The main problem I see is that for supports it just costs too much, but then again it's components make sense as an overall theme of stacking raw health/mana and regen so it doesn't make sense in that respect to change the components.

SOo half trolling idea but tack on more defensive capability (+ 3 armor,+ 3 magic armor) for free to encourage picking it up! :p

OR 20% Stun/Slow Resistance, 'to encourage ramboing in as tanky initiator' LOL (SACRIFICIAL Stone bro.)

Half serious though, it would give its main potential users (Torturer, Defiler, Electrician, Balphagore, did I forget any?) a much better reason to pick it up over the default Nullstone+Shrunken Head, and even encourage some other heroes to pick it up (thinking Armadon, Pharoah, Devo, Moraxus, Cthulu, Salforis, Lego, etc.).

[Gringos]

Rework!!!

It competes too closely with Null Stone as of now. Boost it and null stone might disappear, don't and everyone will still prefer null stone.

I don't think :Nullstone: will disappear in any case concerning :SacrificialStone:. When you have to absorb heavy, single target spells, that is the utility you are looking for. In which situations are you looking for a :SacrificialStone:? When you want to snowball. But there are so many other choices that are more effective at keeping your enemy down when you rock the road.

Therein lies the problem. This item needs a niche, it needs a higher purpose (or it's old stats back) to become popular again.

[kessu1]

Sac stone also gives sight (and experience) of the spot that you died on. (Not sure about he experience part)

Buffing this item could make it horribly overpowered, so you'd need to be careful with buffing.

[jp_zer0]

I think the main problem is that it takes too many charges to get something useful out of it. :BehemothsHeart: and :Nullstone: are a lot stronger than plain :SacrificialStone:. Takes too many charges to even it out.

The second problem is that Sac Stone gives a lot of mana. Mana has to be the most abundant and cheap resource in the game. Half of the item's effects are wasted on this. Not only is +Mana not very useful past early midgame, there is no +Int. Change +mana to +Int and it suddenly becomes more attractive. Like + 2 or 3 int per charge instead of + mana regen and max mana.

The third problem is that it focuses a lot on regen despite having no hope of outperforming :BehemothsHeart:.

[Ultimate]

A viable change would be making the heal into a shield (buff). It makes it more powerful than a heal. How? Often focused first healing your team when they have full HP which makes Bloodstone useless. Also makes the XP in the death range a bit higher.

[aeowulf]

The second problem is that Sac Stone gives a lot of mana. Mana has to be the most abundant and cheap resource in the game.


Have to agree with this. Its not like anything is keeping S2 from removing Icon/Soul Booster (Its a waste of space TBH) from the game and tweaking the stats on Sac Stone.

[Gringos]

Sac stone also gives sight (and experience) of the spot that you died on. (Not sure about he experience part)

Buffing this item could make it horribly overpowered, so you'd need to be careful with buffing.

Those things are no selling points. People don't want to bet with their life to help other players, if one allows a sarcastic remark to martyrs popularity.

In addition, if you are in the position to buy sacrificial stone you are likely either close to level 16 or already there. Who is worrying about experience at that point? The effect would be immensely more useful if :SacrificialStone: would be rescaled down to be affordable at an earlier stage of the game.

@jp_zer0
Add :FrostwolfsSkull: to the list of competition. Even that item has a more convincing utility.

[aqana]

I enjoy making the item on 2 heroes.
Torturer and Doctor Repulser is VERY strong with this item if you have great farm and is able to make it early before the enemies are strong enough to get you down, and with +10 charges you are a serious pain midgame.
Sometimes it's very strong on an electrician too, and I can see it good on a balph too.
But it is due to it's insane mana regen only I pick it. That's why I think it needs a buff back to somewhat near it's old stage where charges gave more than 0.25 hp/sec.

[SanniK]

I love his item it’s one of my favorites to have especially on heavy mana pool dependent heroes like Dr. Repulsor or Artesia. The only thing I dislike about the item is the cost, by the time I can build it after getting laning gear the game is already over.

I know this probably won’t work so feel free to shoot it down, but what I would like to see (especially for expensive items that don’t have a ‘recipe’ you need for it) like Sac. Stone or staff of Mastery is a small gold refund based on your GPM income.

The higher your GPM the less of a small refund you get while low GPM can get the max cap small gold refund on certain item purchases.

The purpose is for items that are greatly needed for certain heroes become more obtainable and heroes that can’t farm gold as quickly as others can still get to the items that have a high gold cost because a couple deaths can make it unobtainable.

What you think?

[Pellikan]

If u split helm + mana ring u get exile to build for locket and afaik the cd reduce stacks.

[tinyTIMMER]

Personally, I haven't seen the item since beta electrician. After reading the previous posts I'm noticing a trend of focusing on the death timer aspect; not to disagree with that being a valid point, however I personally think the problem with the item in and of itself is the lack of starting charges. If any player is set to buy an item worth 5k I feel as though the regen earned from said item should have the capacity to compete with other similar costing regen items (nullstone/heart/idol etc.) Thoughts?

[Gorb]

I would like to re-iterate that suggestion posts are to be avoided, as per the subforum rules.

[GoldenFrog04]

1-never seen anyone before getting helm + ring to disassemble . maybe a carry int would - like repulsor
2-late in game getting this item is expensive later and not efficient comparing to shrunkin or other protectives , you can get out safely instead of just reducing timer + what to do when i respawn faster than my team ? getting ganked easier ? I prefer to respawn with them
* maybe this is why players ignore this advantage
finally , the other advantages of it could be combined from more useful item , this item is too expensive

[Jotoneee]

I have some points to bring to the table for Sacraficial Stone:

1. Respawntimer reduce:
Sacraficial Stone OVERWRITES the Gravelocket effect, what is really sad. (if u disamble HotBL and ring of sorcery and combine to sac stone, u got iron bucklar and Amulet of exile left. I turned amulet into gravelocket and realized, the special effect of Gravelocked was nullified :/ if it stacked, it would be a strong tool to lower respawn timer rather fast) I will open a post in mechanic forums about that also.

2. Mana Regeneration:
Per charge u get 1 basic mana regenaration - (This wont scale with % mana regenaration as it would be OP on repulsa). Many ppl seem to forget this effec. On many heroes, esp. Strength casters :elec: with low int gain it is really strong.

3. Max HP:
Per chage u gain 25 max HP. - if you manage to get 20 charges on Sac stone u gain 500 max HP, bringing Sac Stones total bonus to 950 Hp, wich is like Behemoth heart. If u now Combine Sac stone with behemoth heart in late game, your HP regeneration rises with each charge by 0.25 through sac stone effect and 0.25 through beheHeart effect (1 % of 25 HP) providing u with insane tank ability.

4. Heal allies on Death:
On Death Heals allies 400 + charges x 25. in 1700 Radius! - Maybe the "problematic" part of the item, stil, think about the item on Balphagore. U want to kill the hero, before he can unleash his charged ult. so if the enemy team uses all their nukes to bring him down they will pasively force and aoe heal on the team, which is a nice effect. Its not really the effect u would buy an item for, but its a nice bonus, that can turn around a fight.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

conclusion:

Sacraficial stone is to be used on a few heroes (:balp: :elec: :blac: :tort: :doct:). Those heroes need very much mana and/or have low int gain, providing low mana pool/mana reg.

Current Meta :elec: is nearly allways played on early Ring of Sorcery and HotBL. I dont really get, why competetive players do not combine those items in lategame to free an item slot. even directly combining HotBL And RoS early to Sac Stone is nice, as u free up space in your inventory to maybe change the amulet of exile to a gravelocket for beneficial respawntimer reduce sounds worth it (needs fix).

possible changes:

- make sac stone charges and Gravelocket effect on Respawn stackable.

- i like the idea changing the deathtime reduce to
5-10% per charge. it would allow sac stone to scale a bit better in late game. (maybe should be capped at 50% because a sac stone with 20 charges might provide 2 instant respawns) also, the loss of charges could be capped at 5, reducing the respawn 10% per lost charge?

- i hear in DOTA bloodstone (eq Sac Stone) loses 1/3 charges instead of half in HON. this might be a good change (its depressing owning a game collecting like 16 charges, then dieing twice landing at 4 charges --> losing 12 manareg, 300 max hp, 3 hp reg)

- also in Dota Bloodstone starts with 5 charges, why not give Sac Stone 5 charges at start? it would ajust giving more manareg then a nullstone when u buy it (sac stone 200% mana reg; nullstone 200%mana reg +15 int resulting in more mana reg from start)

[Good_Apollo]

I don't like to since its lazy but I can't help but say: look at DotA. Start it off with charges and you invariably fix it...

The biggest problem with this item is its all or nothing. Unfortunately we also have a tanky sub-meta right now and I'd hate to see Sac Stone make it easier for the wrong heroes.

[SuperCommand]

1 charge per death would be horribly broken, because at 20 charges you get 60 seconds less spent dead - which is a near instant respawn during the midgame (with close to no gold loss).

You not realizing that kinda makes me question if you even read the first post in this thread :/

Certainly if you have 20 charges you'd deserve such a bonus? And still, putting a cap at it as suggested in the 1st post would solve this issue(E.g. max 50% less respawn and gold loss).

[calvic]

with the new patch and changes to pickled brain it is now even more expensive, a price change would end up effecting several items due to it having no recipe so it seems some sort of buff is needed now more than ever

[Skyve]

Certainly if you have 20 charges you'd deserve such a bonus? And still, putting a cap at it as suggested in the 1st post would solve this issue(E.g. max 50% less respawn and gold loss).

You deserve the near instant respawn with 20 charges, sure, but not every single time you die. With 1 charge lost upon death you are basically guaranteed to constantly have your charges growing upward.

[SilkyTheCat]

The Sac Stone has a very odd role, and one which can safely be filled by other items with more general utility:

- it grants health, which can be compensated for by the effective health granted by armour
- it grants mana, which can be compensated for by powerful cc items like Sheepstick or Hellflower
- it can sometimes help carry heroes steamroll in the lategame, but this roll depends on avoiding ganks at almost any cost/inflexible play
- charges are really fun to get, but they're often difficult to get without the cc or damage items that could be purchased instead

- few heroes need a lot of health and mana regeneration on top of cautious play

It's just a genuinely weird item for most heroes. Heart gives damage on top of health regen, armour grants effective health at a lower cost, and items that could be purchased instead of a Sac Stone are often more essential to the hero (e.g. cc, attack speed, invis, etc.). Unless it's niche broadens I don't see a good reason for it to be picked up outside of midwars or a game you're already winning.

[w3wStarBoy]

Good design but cost so high
And no damage, no armor. that's why only nuke-tank hero can build this item

[Demonwing]

At the moment, the item has a late-game price while boasting a mid-game function.

Sac Stone can be very easily related to a Frostburn in that it functions as a midgame transitional item (for heroes/lineups that rely on strong midgames). The only issue is that it has the same cost as a good portion of legitimate late-game items. lowering the cost to be comparable to Frostburn and tweaking some numbers down in exchange would most likely put the item in a position to be easily balanced.

[XeroTheta]

I've been thinking about this item a lot lately, and I agree with other posters that the immediate benefit is not enough to justify buying the item. Additionally, if you do happen to earn enough charges, this item is not the reason you won the game. I agree with another poster as well about the fact this item contradicts itself. It provides increasing amounts of survivability, while boasting an on death effect. All in all, the item has the potential to be a great pickup, but it doesn't win games like other items do. It's luxury at it's best.

This item needs to start with charges or have some other major changes. Either make it a straight survivability item, or turn it into a support item that doesn't require the user to die. In my opinion, I would like to see it work more like Balphagore's ult. Charges could be gained temporarily based on how much damage friendly heroes sustain and they taper off over time outside of combat.

[calvic]

there has been a lot of talk about the price of the item, but the price is not not likely to be lowered for the sac stones sake unless they change the components required to build it. It is an auto-combine item and changing any component of it could upset the balance of several other items.

lifetube: hotbl, (in rare cases headdress), nullstone, restoration sone, and runed axe
manatube: sheepstick, stormspirit, nullstone, restoration stone, and runed axe
Pickled brain: sorcery ring
Beastheart: hotbl, and behemoth heart
glowstone: staff of master, and frostwolf skull
(sustainer and icon of the godess also but they are rarely built unless they are being put into something else)

so changing its price can only really be achieved by changing what components are required to build the item

[Alten]

Actually, it's quite possible that all sac stone really needs is a small buff instead of something significant. I don't really think a change to the recipe is necessary; hotbl and mana ring are prevalent enough that acquiring a sac stone is a relatively cheap and cost effective transition (especially if both are possessed by the same hero). Giving Sac Stone +5 to the charges initially and allowing Icon of the Goddess to accrue charges (probably meaningless, as most players that build sac stone will construct helm/ring and render an icon almost never directly acquired) that give additional bonuses to the regen it provides are likely all that is necessary to make the item/items a competitive option in the late game item pool.

[Gorb]

I would like to re-iterate that suggestion posts are to be avoided, as per the subforum rules.I am genuinely going to start slapping people if they don't adhere to this. Please take note of my post(s).

[Alten]

Alright, sac stone needs a change that makes it more viable as compared to other mid/late-game survivability/regeneration items, like nullstone or behemoth's heart or any int carry item (for that matter, many early game regen items like ring, helm, nome's, etc. in terms of cost efficiency and the practical basis of time of acquisition). All of these are more cost-efficient, more viable on a greater number of heroes, directly add stats which generally have more value than raw health/mana, etc.; it has many tacked-on effects that don't really add much effectiveness to the item, and the effect that is actually incredibly good (the death-timer reduction... and it's been replicated with grave locket, thus deincentivising the item further) in almost every circumstance requires many kills to achieve while keeping yourself alive an unrealistically large amount of time. It is considered (though this may or may not be strictly true) a snowball item, and thus lacks incentive unless the team is winning; in which case, you might as well get damage or cc except on a very few number of heroes.

I suppose that's better than a suggestion, but that's already been established as the core problem with sac-stone. At that point, it's best to shut the thread down because suggestions are the only thing that could be, however miniscule, meaningfully added.

[H0NisSerious]

Static regen is ****ing stupid and is one of the worst changes Icefrog ever made to the item and that S2 copied. Also, no one wants raw mana more than int and quadratic regen.

[supply_depot]

I think the real nail in the coffin for the Sac Stone is that absence of any statistic bonus to it. Health, Mana and regeneration are all fine and great, but there are other items that provide all of these with and statistics- giving greater incentive to pick them up. I think HoN players have recognized how incredibly valuable statistics are over regeneration items, and this is why you see more tablets / grave lockets / nullstones (ultimate orb ftw) / the occasional SOTM (still gets picked up more than Sac stone).

Sac Stone is also more or less only a good pickup for mid heroes. It's likely they can rely on Bottle for regeneration. Further undermining the necessity / incentive of the Sac Stone.

I'm trying hard to avoid outright suggestions - but I think the lack of statistic bonus on the Sac Stone ultimately makes it lose all footing in the balance world. Perhaps considering some form of stat bonus / buildup would see it in a better place.

[IsmaelVera]

Pros:
+Mana/HP Pool
+Hp/Mana Regen
Aoe Heal
Respawn lowered

Cons:
Expensive
Stacking armor will benefit you more (EHP)
Other survivability items are more worthwhile to get
Benefits players that gank...but they must also be more or less expendable after they play their role if they want to use the heal
Dying for the charge based heal is not as reliable as an instant heal
:balp:

[BPDOOM123]

This item is Garbage The Change they implemented is Horrible First off The way they intergrated armor into is that doesnt stack with plated greaves AWFUL,
this item was fine only thing needed was to take sustainer out of the equation and add in grave locket and add stats instead of HP5 and MP5 they ruined this item and i and i am sad
First they nerf Hellbringer to **** then they Nerf my build seems to me that S2 is more concered with competing with Riot for who can make more heroes then to actually balance the heores they ****ed up
I for one want to See the Original Sacrificial Stone restored and the Grave Locket ShitStone given a different name

Ever think this was an Support item? What item do int heroes get to give them Survivability
Barbed armor(only good if you have high health)
Nullstone good luck affording a 2100 items while warding(effectively)
Plated Greaves O wait they don't stack you gotta get steamboats now
**** i cant think of anymore

[Reldnahc]

This item is Garbage The Change they implemented is Horrible First off The way they intergrated armor into is that doesnt stack with plated greaves AWFUL,
this item was fine only thing needed was to take sustainer out of the equation and add in grave locket and add stats instead of HP5 and MP5 they ruined this item and i and i am sad
First they nerf Hellbringer to **** then they Nerf my build seems to me that S2 is more concered with competing with Riot for who can make more heroes then to actually balance the heores they ****ed up
I for one want to See the Original Sacrificial Stone restored and the Grave Locket ShitStone given a different name

Ever think this was an Support item? What item do int heroes get to give them Survivability
Barbed armor(only good if you have high health)
Nullstone good luck affording a 2100 items while warding(effectively)
Plated Greaves O wait they don't stack you gotta get steamboats now
**** i cant think of anymore

Before your brain takes anymore damage from being deprived of oxygen, look at Icon of the Goddess now. So much is wrong with your head if you think new Sac Stone isn't good for supports.

[Skyve]

I think this probably can be closed now :)

[man_guy]

No, I get the last word.

[`11411181]

R.I.P.

[Gorb]

The last word indicates the winrar.

A winrar is I.