[2.5.16] Soul Reaper

[Vascariz]

:soulr::soulr:SOUL REAPER:soulr::soulr:



His Role


Soul Reaper's main role is as a tank carry with a strong finisher. He has in the past been quite strong in the lane with his hp reduction aura and AoE damage and heal.



Why balance?


In the current competitive game, his slow and steady approach in the lane, limited ganking potential and low survivability means that he is unable to compete.


Why slow - very slow base movement speed of 290 which makes chasing, ganking and surviving extremely difficult.


Why limited ganking potential - his only ganking ability is his assistance is a low damage and low heal spell with a very high mana cost and in a gank you won't be able to last hit neutrals to recoup the mana cost with Inhuman Nature, coupled with a high mana cost ultimate that has a stun duration shorter than most lvl 3 disables/stuns.
Again slow movement speed makes it hard to keep up with a moving fight.


Why low survivability - No evasive or damage absorption abilities. Instead you have a low heal ability that is mana intensive. Again slow movement speed.



What to balance?


To make Soul Reaper viable, I propose to focus on his survivability, hp suppression, mana recoup and the role of his ultimate.


Survivability - provides Soul Reaper with a mechanism of surviving/avoiding a gank. Currently, players will pick up items to increase his survivability but in the early game, he needs something.


HP suppression - this allows Soul Reaper to establish his presence in a lane in a unique way by slowing and steadily reducing the hp of surrounding enemies. It is strongly themed, unique and synergises with all of his other abilities.


Mana recoupment - his mana recoupment off creeps is a strong feature of Soul Reaper and there is no better feeling than working down the hitpoints on a group of creeps, doing a 5 kill Judgement and getting all that mana back with Inhuman Nature. It really encourages skill based play.


However, there is no worse feeling than dumping all your mana in a team fight with no creeps around, finish off a hero and then stand there with 0 mana as all your skills are mana intensive and there is no recoupment for killing a hero.


Ultimate - his ultimate is a strong finisher. However, the superior magic 1.5 second stun is also a very strong stun in a team fight. I, and I am sure many have others, used it for its 1.5 second stun rather than the damage to secure a kill. I think the stun component should be improved to encourage the team aspects of the ability.



How to balance?


This will be the main source of discussion in this thread. Here are my proposals on how to balance. I will try to keep this conceptual with intentional vagueness in numbers to prevent it from become a suggestion/numbers fight but more of a conceptual debate.


Survivability - My preference would not be to improve his movement speed or add a damage suppression etc but to balance his other skills that still plays on his theme to increase his survivability.


HP suppression - the suppression as it currently stands is not sufficient to allow Soul Reaper to have a real presence in the lane. To establish such a presence I list a few balances:


Alternative 1: I would like to see a healing and regeneration suppression component to make this more effective in competitive play. A healing and regeneration suppression component firstly establishes great lane control through positioning and allows Soul Reaper greater control in the lane to combat aggressive harassment.


Alternative 2: To play on the Judgment theme, have judgement apply a debuff that reduces healing/regeneration much like Salforis but as a % rather than as a prevention. This will also synergise with his ultimate to prevent heals/regen during the stun leading up to the application of the damage. The debuff would be added via Withering Presence to encourage people to pick Withering Presence.


Alternative 3: Set his aura back to a flat range and increase the % hp removed per level.


Mana recoupment - Allow mana recoupment for killing an enemy hero and also from enemy heroes killed under the effect of Demonic Execution, either by adding a much higher static number for enemy heroes or make it % based like Blood Hunter. It allows you to remain useful in a team fight early game when you are still focusing on survivability items. Further, you can take advantage of the short cooldown of Judgement to hopefully heal yourself back into safety.


Further, it has been suggested that Soul Reaper gets a further effect from the damage dealt by Judgement like further enhancing his mana recoupment or adding a damage absorption shield like Nome's.


Ultimate - Two things need to happen to the ultimate to make it more effective 1 v 1 and also in a team situation.


1) Increase the duration of the stun or make it inversely proportional to the amount of hp left (e.g. less % hp left [e.g. 90% left] the longer the stun [e.g. 3.5 secs] but higher % hp left [e.g. 60%] the shorter the stun [e.g. 1 second].


2) Deal the damage at the end of the stun and the damage is calculated at the end of the stun.


This encourages the use of the ultimate as an initiator and definitely much earlier than usual. The damage is calculated at the end of the stun duration to take into account damage dealt during the length of the stun. With regards to displacement effects like Stormspirit, the ultimate will trigger at the end of the displacement effect.



Conclusion


I hope this thread has positively contributed to how we should approach a balance of Soul Reaper. I would appreciate people to point out any issues and I will edit this OP as required. Especially with any feedback they have from observing or being part of competitive play. I appreciate that two of the balance suggestions above are from the Dota 2 version of Soul Reaper and I acknowledge that here. I also acknowledge the different meta games and therefore have hopefully outlined why they are beneficial and also why the other balances are required.

[Gorb]

Approved.

Remember to follow the subforum rules, and agree or disagree constructively.

[Skyve]

with a strong anti-carry finisher.

How is that skill "anti-carry"?

Instead of giving him healing or regeneration reduction (which is done by Salforis/Slither) we could just buff his aura again. It was nerfed way back when - and to be honest simply reverting that nerf (and maybe slapping a little buff on top) would put him in a pretty good spot.

By reverting the nerf I mean change aura radius back to 1k on all levels. This allows him for constant harass, which allows Reaper to bleed enemies dry of regen items as long as they stay in creeprange.
At the moment, putting only 1 point into the aura won't allow you to keep enemies in aura range, unless you position yourself very badly (ie, next to enemy creeps), leaving you very vulnerable in order to have any lane presence.
Also, the aura could be buffed to gain +0.3% of enemy health as damage on every subsequent level, up from 0.2 if it's still to weak (results in 1.3% of enemy health dealt as damage on lvl4 of the ability).

Another way of buffing the hero would be to improve Sacrificial Stone to a decent level.

[Vascariz]

The anti-carry to me is the superior magic stun and instant damage. I have used it and seen it used with great effect at initiating on, finishing off their carry or preventing the carry from using their escape mechanism (e.g. I have killed many a Magebane by casting my ult early to anticipate their blink and having my team finish him off). Admittedly it is not as strong as Devourer's or Panda's ult (has the benefit of being ranged though) which is why I've suggested the balance above.

But I have removed that comment to prevent any distracting irrelevant arguments.

I agree that Salforis and Slither have healing and regen suppressors but I think it works sufficiently differently from either of them. With regards to Salforis, his ability is a single target complete denial of healing and regen. Soul Reaper's is a slow and steady suppression aura or debuff. With regards to Slither, Toxicity comes close but it doesn't affect healing only regeneration and has a short duration with a damage component. The method of application is very different as well.

I actually agree with the increasing aura range as it encourages you to be more aggressive ESP with judgment rather than sitting back at the tower. Also encourages further investment in th skill. I do agree with you that the % increases can be improved instead of the healing/regen suppression idea. I will put your idea up as an alternative - I didn't add hard numbers to prevent people being bogged down in arguing about numbers.

I disagree with buffing an item to improve SR as there are plenty of heroes tiered above SR (Torturer being one that springs to mind) that would also benefit from it resulting in little net change and it is such a late game item that it does little to assist SR current problems.

[Vascariz]

Besides that I don't really want to have Soul Reaper buffed. We already have enough stupid magic AoE tanks in this game and having Soul Reaper be that with weaknesses is quite nice.

Except that his mechanism of action is different to almost all magic AoE strength based tanks. Also, he is a range intelligence hero with a completely different playstyle.

As I have outlined none of the balances I suggest directly improve him as a tank. Rather they focus on his unique set of skills to make him more viable.

I'd rather the focus be on balancing Soul Reaper rather than complaining about the current metagame or allowing him to be the token useless hero!

[commy]

I don't understand your complaints. Heroes are meant to have strengths and weaknesses. SR is a hard carry who farms like crazy and can single handedly win team fights in the mid/late game. He does not need fast movement speed or more survivability. Stop trying to homogenise every hero please.

He was on the backfoot for a while with the meka nerf, but the vanguard change did a world of good for him.

[Good_Apollo]

I'll say one thing in that Inhuman Nature deserves to be at least up to par with it's DOTA counterpart, gaining a substantial amount of mana on hero kill. He's been silently suffering because the ricing-hard-carry meta he thrived in hasn't been around in HoN for at least a year or so. He doesn't cope as well as other heroes in a faster paced game.

Soul Reaper is not a hard carry, he's an anti-carry/semi-carry.

[Vascariz]

SR is a hard carry who farms like crazy and can single handedly win team fights in the mid/late game.

I am genuinely confused. Soul Reaper has been unable to farm like crazy due being unable to compete effectively in the lane and has not been single handedly winning team fights in mid/late game for a long time.

I think perhaps you are thinking of DotA and haven't played or seen a Soul Reaper in a long time.



He does not need fast movement speed or more survivability. Stop trying to homogenise every hero please.

Never said he needed faster movement speed. Just that it explains his survivability. Also I am not increasing his survivability by buffing his hp etc as that would be homogenising the hero.

I am not homogenising the hero at all if you carefully read my balances. Further, his weaknesses stay as his weaknesses - movement speed still low, no damage suppression, no blink evasion... instead you balance some of his strengths in line with the theme of the hero that makes him unique.

However, if you mean "balance" the hero then yes... obviously I am trying to balance the hero to make it competitive.



He was on the backfoot for a while with the meka nerf, but the vanguard change did a world of good for him.

He has been on the backfoot for a lot more than just the meka nerf. The introduction of a new suite of heroes that changed the metagame and also the changes to his aura range have nerfed him.

Do we have any replays of Soul Reaper competitively recently or played at a high level successfully as a carry? I say this genuinely as I am (a) interested in real experiences and (b) always out to learn how to play Soul Reaper better.

[Vascariz]

Soul Reaper is not a hard carry, he's an anti-carry/semi-carry.

I do agree with the anti-carry portion. Maybe I should add that back into my OP :D

[ImmaYeti]

Instead of dealing magic damage with his aura, have it lower max health for 30 seconds by the same amount. Now they cant just rush life tube and then laugh at your aura the whole game. While they are standing in your aura their max health is decreasing and isnt regen-able for 30 seconds. Once thirty seconds is up without being in your aura they get their health back.

[Vascariz]

Instead of dealing magic damage with his aura, have it lower max health for 30 seconds by the same amount. Now they cant just rush life tube and then laugh at your aura the whole game. While they are standing in your aura their max health is decreasing and isnt regen-able for 30 seconds. Once thirty seconds is up without being in your aura they get their health back.

I don't quite see the synergy with Soul Reaper's ultimate as Soul Reaper's ultimate is based on % health lost. So we would want them losing hp which is what the current aura is doing.

Reducing their max hp doesn't benefit any of your skills directly. Instead the balance in my OP regarding reducing regen/healing seems more appropriate.

[ImmaYeti]

not true, the aura would then become very useful in the early game lane control phase. This allows him to farm and deny farm in a more effective way. Ult is balanced. If he needs anything its a way to not be countered so hard early by any regen at all. Now he doesn't need to be mana heavy because he focus on last hitting if they are worried about their health being low and tree eaters are not going to cut it in lane to bring them back up. As is 6 tree eaters puts SR out of the game.

[Vascariz]

not true, the aura would then become very useful in the early game lane control phase.

Yes an okay early game lane control mechanism but does not synergise with his ultimate which was my point.

It's basically the same as Alternative 1 and to some extent Alternative 2, except that you are introducing a no regeneration/heal component and removing a component that synergises with his ultimate.

This seems to be the case as you repeatedly state that regeneration counters Soul Reaper. I think we are in agreement that something needs to be done about regeneration/healing in the lane. As such, there is no point arguing further as it just becomes a numbers fight about a balance already suggested in my OP.

However, I do disagree that healing and regeneration should be completely nullified as that would be overpowered and make certain support heroes redundant. It should be a % base that is sufficient to cause a headache in the lane but not enough to shut down all forms of regen/healing. Once again, the exact numbers are neither here nor there at the moment.

[bakaxy]

Soul Reaper doesn't need more movement speed or something like this, just revert his aura to the original values with 1000 range on all levels and 0.6%/ 0.8%/1.0%/1.2%.
And additionally buff his managain at the 4th level of the third skill.

That should be enough change for the beginning to make him more useful again.

[Tay_z0nday]

The buff wasnt enough...
I agree with bakaxy change his aura definetly need a small buff since he got no cc and all...
I think it's kind of sad that I cant even last hit when I am alone...
Could give him a faster attack animation so he could orb walk since he got no cc...

[Vascariz]

Soul Reaper doesn't need more movement speed or something like this


Can we PLEASE dispel this myth?! If you read my OP it specifically states that I am not suggesting a movement speed or direct buff to tank him up or prevent damage.




, just revert his aura to the original values with 1000 range on all levels and 0.6%/ 0.8%/1.0%/1.2%.
And additionally buff his managain at the 4th level of the third skill.

That should be enough change for the beginning to make him more useful again.

I agree it would be the start of the change towards making him useful but it definitely needs more than that in the current metagame.


The buff wasnt enough...
I agree with bakaxy change his aura definetly need a small buff since he got no cc and all...


If you read the OP you will note such a change is already noted as Alternative 3 with 2 other alternatives suggested regarding his aura.

[pewpewstar]

If you can't last hit in a freefarm situation with any hero, that's your problem; neither does he have an orb to orbwalk with.

Also having no cc is not a good reason for needing buffs.

[too`smithie]

To be honest Soul Reaper's heal is holding him back. It's literally garbage compared to Desham, Jeri, even Accursed can do a better job.

I think soul reaper would be better off having the heal aspect removed from his first skill and have it replaced with an offensive slow. Damage etc should still be applied as he needs it to synergize with his 3rd skill.

I’d also like to see his starting armour boosted.

All his other skills are fine in my opinion.

I would go in to more detail if people wish to dicsuss.

[skeloperch]

I would like to see him having a better laning phase without buffing his attack animation. Seriously, is that too much to ask for? Unnerfing (and buffing) his aura is easy and effective. Besides that, you could add a small slow to Q, or you could make E return more mana (from 12/24/36/48 to 15/28/41/54, or make it return more for a hero kill). There is so much that could improve his lackluster early game, which leads into a lackluster mid-game (because let's be honest, he isn't a very notable hero early and mid game, AT ALL), and he ends up having a sub-par lategame, even though he has to endure being a stick in the mud for 30 minutes.

[Dominare]

Chalk up another vote for reverting the aura range nerf. He's had minor buffs to his animation and Q, so I'd be hesitant to make too many changes all at once, I think reverting aura and seeing how he does for a bit would be the smart first step.

[PlayeroJ]

2.5.8:
Increased starting armor from 1.10 to 1.75
Judgment manacost reduced from 125/145/165/185 to 120/140/160/180
Withering Presence radius increased from 700/800/900/1000 to 800/900/1000/1100

There was a buff to his attack animation in patch 2.1 too. I'm really surprised to not be hearing anyone talk about these changes in an SR thread. The starting armor buff was certainly a decent buff.

Not sure what to make of the 5 man cost reduction in judgment; it's a pretty easy spell to spam as it is with SR's ridiculous mana regen as it is, but I guess it's only 5 mana so meh? By the way it seems that the OP really underestimates SR's Inhuman Nature. Dude, SR is a hero you can slap a RotT on and can regen more mana within the span of 5+ minutes than most of the hero pool could with nullstone.

Now the buff they gave Withering Presence rather than reverting the nerf is kind of interesting. They obviously don't want to go back to that level 1 1000 range aura again but they've buffed it early game so that a SR who picks it up can better force an enemies to address him and also buffed it slightly in the end game with the radius buff.

SR is so on the borderline I'm not sure whether to say he's OP or not, but buffs should be handed very delicately; most people here don't seem to understand how easily this hero can become bat **** OP.

[Vascariz]

I'm really surprised to not be hearing anyone talk about these changes in an SR thread. The starting armor buff was certainly a decent buff.

I think it's because we all are in agreement that these changes were not enough. So there's no real point going back in time and cataloguing those changes. He was not competitive before that change and he's not competitive after it. The only changes worth going back to were back to when he was competitive BUT noting the change in the current metagame.



By the way it seems that the OP really underestimates SR's Inhuman Nature.

You mean the part where I mention there is no better feeling than working down the hitpoints on a group of creeps, doing a 5 kill Judgement and getting all that mana back with Inhuman Nature. It really encourages skill based play. ? The problem being that it only happens if you are alone in the lane. Also it requires you to put skill points into Inhuman Nature instead of Withering Presence which makes it harder for you to farm as you have next to zero harassing ability against other competitive heroes played by skilled players.



Now the buff they gave Withering Presence rather than reverting the nerf is kind of interesting. They obviously don't want to go back to that level 1 1000 range aura again but they've buffed it early game so that a SR who picks it up can better force an enemies to address him and also buffed it slightly in the end game with the radius buff.

I agree and hence why I prefer Alternative 1 and 2 instead of Alternative 3. I think Alternative 3 is just being lazy and not putting careful thought into how to balance the hero to be competitive. It's just looking back nostagically on the old Soul Reaper and not acknowledging that the game has changed dramatically since then.

[Bohrain]

Soul Reaper doesn't need more movement speed or something like this, just revert his aura to the original values with 1000 range on all levels and 0.6%/ 0.8%/1.0%/1.2%.
And additionally buff his managain at the 4th level of the third skill.

That should be enough change for the beginning to make him more useful again.

I agree with the aura radius change, but instead of buffing his 3rd skill to give more mana at lvl 4, I'd change it to give a larger amount of mana from hero kills.

[PlayeroJ]

I think it's because we all are in agreement that these changes were not enough. So there's no real point going back in time and cataloguing those changes. He was not competitive before that change and he's not competitive after it. The only changes worth going back to were back to when he was competitive BUT noting the change in the current metagame.

The last changes were in patch 2.5.8, not that long ago. It really is arguable whether or not he is viable in the current meta-game, and to be honest I'd imagine the hero should already be fine. A large part of his going unpicked a lot in competitive games has to do with the habitual way the competitive field plays.



You mean the part where I mention there is no better feeling than working down the hitpoints on a group of creeps, doing a 5 kill Judgement and getting all that mana back with Inhuman Nature. It really encourages skill based play. ? The problem being that it only happens if you are alone in the lane. Also it requires you to put skill points into Inhuman Nature instead of Withering Presence which makes it harder for you to farm as you have next to zero harassing ability against other competitive heroes played by skilled players.

You should only be getting 1 level of withering presence and then inhuman nature until completed anyways. You level withering presence immediately because it does passive damage throughout the entire game which adds up starting from laning phase. You should skip leveling withering presence after you get it at lvl 1 until you're maxed out on judgment and inhuman nature.

[Tyrannate]

Soul Reaper's Q and R are fine. The core issues are with W and E.

W: the main issue is that it starts really weak, and you are FORCED to invest multiple points into it before it becomes even remotely effective. The range and the % of HP drain scale sharply with levels, but start abysmally low.

1 - Revert aura to 1000 range at all ranks, keeping the %HP drained per rank the same
2 - Fix the %HP drained at all levels, increase range per rank

I would suggest fix 2, which is arguably the larger buff of the two. It would bolster his early game quite a bit against melee, but still require additional points for maximum effectiveness -- especially against ranged opponents.

E: the main issue is that this is just a weak ability. Getting mana back is awesome, but look at how many problems this ability has

1 - Requires creeps to be around
2 - Requires a last hit
3 - Gives back a relatively small amount of mana
4 - Requires at least three points to begin to show a significant effect
5 - Lackluster at max rank compared to his other abilities
6 - Boring

I have a couple ideas to throw around

A - Passive/Active ability, passive is the same, single-target activation to place a debuff on the target which returns X% of the damage you deal to it back in health and/or mana. This would encourage a more aggressive playstyle and itemization.

B - Passive/Active ability, passive is the same, active is Berserker's Strength Sap except it drains mana instead of HP.

C - Passive/Active ability, passive the same but gains charges whenever you gain mana back from the the passive, changes capped at X, activate to burn the mana of all surrounding enemy units

D - Passive, mana from units stays the same, mana from hero kills drastically increased

E - Passive/Active ability, passive is the same, activate to create a shield of mana equal to the mana gained in the last X seconds

F - Passive, instead of gaining mana back on deaths of units, instead gains mana back equal to a % of damage dealt to all enemy units. Syngergizes greatly with aura and judgement!

[Vascariz]

You should only be getting 1 level of withering presence and then inhuman nature until completed anyways.

Sorry, lvl 1 withering presence is a joke. You are wasting a skillpoint in something that will have basically 0 impact on the lane due to it's range and low hp % removal. Like Inhuman Judgment it only starts to shine about lvl 2/3 onwards when the aura range starts to get problematic and the hp% removal starts to become more significant.

Read Tyrannate's post above mine which is extremely informative.



I have a couple ideas to throw around



Great ideas but I think we are moving into the realm of suggestions. I will generalise my Alternatives section later so that it incorporates the types of suggestions you have made. However, I didn't make reference to mana burn or activating a mana shield as they are not in the theme of the hero. I do like the effect of adding a mana shield like Nome's.


Sounds like a pretty original and great idea to me. What do you guys think?

It does play on the idea in my OP regarding the longer stun. I would also like to see the damage dealt at the END of the stun duration as stated in my OP. I will add that suggestion to my OP.

[YawningAngel]

Stick to analysing the hero as is please.

[Glibber`]

2.5.8:
Increased starting armor from 1.10 to 1.75
Judgment manacost reduced from 125/145/165/185 to 120/140/160/180
Withering Presence radius increased from 700/800/900/1000 to 800/900/1000/1100

There was a buff to his attack animation in patch 2.1 too. I'm really surprised to not be hearing anyone talk about these changes in an SR thread. The starting armor buff was certainly a decent buff.

Not sure what to make of the 5 man cost reduction in judgment; it's a pretty easy spell to spam as it is with SR's ridiculous mana regen as it is, but I guess it's only 5 mana so meh? By the way it seems that the OP really underestimates SR's Inhuman Nature. Dude, SR is a hero you can slap a RotT on and can regen more mana within the span of 5+ minutes than most of the hero pool could with nullstone.

Now the buff they gave Withering Presence rather than reverting the nerf is kind of interesting. They obviously don't want to go back to that level 1 1000 range aura again but they've buffed it early game so that a SR who picks it up can better force an enemies to address him and also buffed it slightly in the end game with the radius buff.

SR is so on the borderline I'm not sure whether to say he's OP or not, but buffs should be handed very delicately; most people here don't seem to understand how easily this hero can become bat **** OP.

^agree with this mostly.

People really underestimate sr, probably because they think he's a healer/support for some reason (oh wait, super lousy heal you hardly notice at low lvl unless you also use it offensively).


I'd hate to see sr buffed, only to be nerfed into oblivion.

If you think he is only a late game hero, try building him with stuff like nomes, astro (maybe manaring) etc. You'll see. Could add hotbl (and vests you'd probably get every game anyway) and there you have it, sustainability.

[Tyrannate]

Stick to analysing the hero as is please.

I apologize for the suggestions I offered before. However I feel compelled by your post to once again stress SR's problems.

Judgement and Reaper's Scythe are fine. Both are powerful, and don't need to be buffed. An improvement to either of these abilities would focusing on the wrong areas, like having someone drink wine instead of pouring it on their festering wound. It may help a little, but it's not getting down to business and it would be expending resources in an inefficient and relatively ineffective way. Even if Q or R were buffed, SR would still be plagued with problems and likely never picked.

The area of focus should be his W and his E.

W is not a balanced ability. It's perfectly fine at rank 4, and halfway decent even at rank 3 -- but at ranks 2 and especially rank 1, the ability is just so, so poor. The damage and the range are so pitifully small that until rank 3 you may as well have gone stats, and even at rank 3 the advantage over stats is negligible. Also consider that any benefit in the laning phase isn't seen until at least level 5, and how long afterwards do you have the opportunity to enjoy your aura until the laning phase ends? Investing 3 skill points so that your aura DOES SOMETHING, and then having the laning phase end soon after, just makes SR's early game feel so insignificant and wasted.

Also consider that to max W first means you'll only have rank 2 in Judgement, so you're sacrificing early game survivability and damage in order to get the aura. However, maxing Judgement first is usually a bad idea due to it's extreme mana cost in the early game. I'm not saying that Q should be changed, I think it's fine and that it shouldn't be maxed first anyway. I think aura should be maxed first, it's a good and relatively unique hero design to have an aura maxed first. But to recap:

1. W starts off so, so poorly
2. When W starts to get good, the laning phase ends. This doesn't mean that the aura is useless now, in fact it's amazing all game at rank 4. But we're trying to buff SR's early game, i.e. the laning phase
3. Judgement is not a viable alternative. It's far too expensive early game to use on a consistent basis, and getting Judgement early means W is going to be nearly worthless until level 9. (W is okay at rank 3 in lane, but outside lane it's very lackluster until rank 4)
4. The sparse damage that W deals early game is easily countered by grabbing one extra regen. 90 gold basically turns SR into a low armor auto-attacker

As for E, it's poorly designed (not powerful enough, boring, stifles creative skill builds because it requires Judgement to be effective), it doesn't do anything in a team battle, it doesn't reach anywhere near effective until rank 3 (are you noticing a trend?), and it doesn't address SR's key focus to be effective: survivability. It technically addresses longevity, but not when SR needs it most (1v1 or team battles). Honestly, it seems to want to be a farming tool, yet more often than not it's a waste of talents. Investing four levels into an ability this confused is a shame. It really needs a rework.

I love SR. Once a very wise person told be that we're all geniuses in the areas where our passion lies. I'm not saying I'm some sort of Soul Reaper sage, but I do think everyone who loves SR has a special insight into the hero that people who don't lack. I'd love some feedback from the community, and also from S2.

[PowerBro]

Sticking to analyzing the hero this time:

Here's a list of all the nerfs that happened to the style of hero (Defiler is in the exact same boat):

-Very weak ultimate at level 6. He pretty much gains a 100 to 150 damage nuke with a 1.5 second stun on a long cooldown. What do you want the hero to do with this.

-No 1 point wonder, both his 'support spells' his W and E need multiple levels to become decent.

-His mana maintenance is outrageous. Sure, he can sustain it with inhuman nature but that implies not having the aura prior to level 12 / 13 (level 1 aura = useless).

-Offers nothing in the laning phase. The hero used to shine in conjunction with Accursed but that almost is more because of Accursed than because of him.

-With similar farm to other heroes, is less of a problem to deal with (if disabled, his short cooldown heal doesn't matter, if he has say 15k worth of items, your carry with 15k worth of items should have no problem dropping him with some help.

[Vascariz]

People really underestimate sr, probably because they think he's a healer/support for some reason (oh wait, super lousy heal you hardly notice at low lvl unless you also use it offensively).



I have never played him as a healer/support and always as a carry. You do not have the survivability or damage output as with other hard or semi-carries. You almost need a hard-carry to get their hitpoints down for you and a tank to take the focus off you to really shine.




I'd hate to see sr buffed, only to be nerfed into oblivion.



Well if played stats are to go by in the competitive scene then he already is in oblivion. Also it's how the buffs are managed that will make the difference. More than happy to see incremental buffs.




If you think he is only a late game hero, try building him with stuff like nomes, astro (maybe manaring) etc. You'll see. Could add hotbl (and vests you'd probably get every game anyway) and there you have it, sustainability.

Nomes has been my go to item recently with vests but all that gets you is catch up to the survivability of other semi-carries / hard-carries who have skills that do that for them anyway (evasion, damage absorption, blinks). Further, it still does not make your lane presence any stronger. It just prevents you from being dominated out of the lane.

[Vascariz]

-Very weak ultimate at level 6. He pretty much gains a 100 to 150 damage nuke with a 1.5 second stun on a long cooldown. What do you want the hero to do with this.



Completely agree. I disagree with those who think his ultimate is fine. It isn't.




-No 1 point wonder, both his 'support spells' his W and E need multiple levels to become decent.

-His mana maintenance is outrageous. Sure, he can sustain it with inhuman nature but that implies not having the aura prior to level 12 / 13 (level 1 aura = useless).

-Offers nothing in the laning phase. The hero used to shine in conjunction with Accursed but that almost is more because of Accursed than because of him.



I think this all comes down to the fact, as stated by Tyrannate, that Soul Reaper's his Inhuman Nature and Withering Presence are useless for the first 2 levels. They need greater presence in those first 2 levels.




-With similar farm to other heroes, is less of a problem to deal with (if disabled, his short cooldown heal doesn't matter, if he has say 15k worth of items, your carry with 15k worth of items should have no problem dropping him with some help.

I have seen how people like to say with x, y and z items he is great late game. Well ALL carries will be great with x, y and z items, the problem is that Soul Reaper has a much harder time getting there and as you state, is much less effective once there.

[LoveIsDead]

Just Personally i think it's stupid that withering presence A) Deals magic damage B) Doesn't Consistently Degen' (Negate natural health regeneration before applying consistent damage) C) doesn't break potions D) Doesn't prevent port key.

Ignoring how bad withering presence is in terms of it not suiting the current burst meta ; with these changes i don't think anyone could say it was under powered or useless...

Having SR as my previous favorite hero, it was sad having to depart from playing him the moment they invent monkey king and drunken master.

Back on topic, this hero screams for a buff, but like you said it's his passives that need attention. A hero with more than one passive deserves to at least benefit from both of them in game, more than just on paper.

As an example, running away from pebbles is bad enough without him port keying to you position and bursting you with 2 spells. If inhuman stopped port key, Even with your terrible ms ; who knows how many escapes you might make...

My 2 cents are just that, 2 cents. :soul:

[Vascariz]

Just Personally i think it's stupid that withering presence A) Deals magic damage B) Doesn't Consistently Degen' (Negate natural health regeneration before applying consistent damage) C) doesn't break potions D) Doesn't prevent port key.



I thought it just removed the hp. Pretty sure it's not magic damage?

The suggestion about negating health regeneration/health pots has been raised a few times and is in the OP.

I think negative port key would be overpowered and something S2 would never implement. You would just put him in the middle of your team and it would negate all port-key initiations in 1100 radius! I personally would love it as a SR fan as then enemies can't PK to or away from you but don't think it will happen.

[LoveIsDead]

Portal key still has 100 units more range than level 4 aura, not saying that's a whole lot, and they'd have to be damn careful about it, but they could still get an initiation in (e.g mag ports in then stuns)
Although i'm already sick of portal key being the primary factor to a winning team fight in almost every game i play.

Take for example Mock of Brilliance... That base magic damage aura pisses all over Withering pressence, doing everything it doesn't.
Also There hasn't been a single game i've played where my withering pressence ended up doing more damage than Mocks aura, even to a level 25 fully fed arma/dev.

I just feel i'd prefer if they gave him a more decent mana cost on judgement, then gave him another active (something like Dota's Battle hunger)

edit: also you are right about the hp removal, it's been a long time since i've played him...

[GregerMoek]

The only thing SR's aura has on Mock is that it isn't reduced by magic armor and "scales" with enemy max HP. Mock offers more utility though and more damage early on.

If this hero should be buffed at all I would prefer something with the aura rather than anything else with the hero.

[Lariatoooo]

Buffing the aura won't solve is early game problems, & is late is strong enough

[LordTroll]

Buffing the aura won't solve is early game problems
OBVIOUSLY it will, since you know, people tend to stay in a lane for many minutes early on. With increased range, some heroes will surely suffer.

[Lariatoooo]

no,cause aura does shitty damage early game, but still u are slow,squishy, with horrible attack,mana intensive spell with low range that put you in danger etc.....

[KingIsRey]

I don't feel a 1000 range aura will be balanced at at at lvl 1; enemies will always be taking damage. Atleast with 800 range you can stay close enough to harass your enemies but not so far that enemies can never get at you when you fall out of position.

Judgement combined with Inhumane nature is strong in the right situations that buffing either can cause some imbalanced flash farming. Even if its been said to be "boring", Inhumane nature is still a strong farming tool when used with Judgement.

Ult is weak at level 1. Feel that the ult in general is not great as a single target, 1.5 second ult (even if it is superior stun).

He needs a buff but I myself am not sure if it should be to his ult, his base damage for easier last hits, better lvl 1 aura, ect.

[Theburned]

only 2 things that I see the need for fix with this hero, it is movement speed and his judgement the projectiles are way to slow and easy to dodge for blinkers.
fixing those and it would be a nice hero, using soul reaper quite often. strong teamfight hero though he requires a shitload of farm, though he will be strong after 3700 gold imo, and then just grow stronger, over 7000 gold and he becomes very dangerous. he needs levels, though he has the slow issue, its the only thing and needing the speed of ghost marchers while only being able to get plated greaves/steamboots for survivability it will be lacked, he can get stormspirit though it just gives the ability to dodge a few things, and adds no tankiness besides this, its nice though after a judgement to stormspirit and use judgement again after coming down.
but really movement speed buff and projectile buff on judgement so that all these power houses cant just go ahead and dodge everything, also maybe a small cast time buff to ulti.

Edit: this hero would be greatly buffed with adding 10-15 movement speed to nomes wisdom too.

[Vascariz]

Judgement combined with Inhumane nature is strong in the right situations that buffing either can cause some imbalanced flash farming. Even if its been said to be "boring", Inhumane nature is still a strong farming tool when used with Judgement.

However, such circumstances only exist in competitive play if Soul Reaper is left alone to farm in a lane and has leveled lvl 4 Judgment and lvl 4 Inhuman Nature which I think is a bad build. The aura is the real harassing tool in the lane, not Judgment. I can't see such a skill build and a Soul Reaper sitting in a lane alone in competitive play in the early game.

In the mid to late game, other heroes have much easier ways of clearing creep waves. Many games I've walked up to a creep wave without enemies nearby only to have an ally just jump on them and clear them instantly.



Ult is weak at level 1. Feel that the ult in general is not great as a single target, 1.5 second ult (even if it is superior stun).

Agreed and hence the buff I suggest in my OP.

[Vascariz]

only 2 things that I see the need for fix with this hero, it is movement speed and his judgement the projectiles are way to slow and easy to dodge for blinkers.

but really movement speed buff and projectile buff on judgement so that all these power houses cant just go ahead and dodge everything, also maybe a small cast time buff to ulti.



Firstly, his projectiles are relatively low damage and are very short-range. It's easy to just stand outside of its range rather than trying to do some fancy dodging. I don't really think he needs his Judgment skill changed.

Secondly, I don't think buffing his movement speed is an appropriate fix. To me it is more appropriate to tweak the aura to increase, as my OP states, the HP suppression aspects without overpowering it. This improves his lane presence, adds to his playstyle and plays on his theme.


Buffing the aura won't solve is early game problems, & is late is strong enough

I actually agree with this sentiment. In that just playing with range or % aura won't balance the hero. Instead it really should be, as above, focused more on hp suppression and lane control without overpowering the skill.

Finally, Inhuman Nature should return mana for a hero kill. Only makes sense for a carry.

[calvic]

Judgements projectile speed really is atrocious, i play soul reaper a lot and I've seen several allies die before the lifesaving green ghost can reach them, or enemies getting away because they got 10 seconds to use their bottle before taking the damage.

the slow speed also makes some mechanics just silly ,it is hilarious to have a high move-speed ally initiate with 10 or so heals stacked behind them (a lvl 16 :monk: can do this with nothing but ghost marchers), but this also means that the spell can be dodged until the hero decides to stop. haven't gone through and tested all the other skills but as far as i know this is the only skill you can cast and have it hopelessly follow its target forever.

a buff here would be fairly safe too, i don't see faster judgement ghosts making the hero overpowered by any means

[Vascariz]

True, I don't see it balancing Soul Reaper at all but rather see it as something unintentional. Seems more to do with making the animation look impressive rather than a balance/strategy issue?

Wouldn't it be interesting to have his skill actually play on that? As long as Judgment is travelling to its target, the target is slowed by x%. If the target is affected by Withering Presence, the target is slowed by an additionally y%. If the target leaves Withering Presence, it is stunned for 0.25 seconds. Hahaha, cast Judgment on a channeler then blink/tablet out of there! Bam channel interrupted :P... sigh... if only...

[Killroy]

Definitely agree on the faster projectiles. About the flash farming, in the current game I can't say that flash farming is that easily with SR. I used to play him a lot in dota but in HoN he just feels less strong because of all the other heroes.

[bully_1337]

To increase his survivability I would change his Aura-Skill in that way:

Lets say he skill aura with lvl2... The aura is still active like it was before but now a counter starts... lets say 60 sec... If the counter ends he get healed by that amount he did to the enemys or a percentage of it.. The counter starts again..

[DaBoolz]

Hello,
i think a lot of good ideas are in this thread. One pretty easy way to boost him would be a better attack-animation(maybe + start-Int), this would give him a better laning and buff his thrid ability.

BUT: S2 trys to differentiate from original dota so lets try to think in changing his spells little.

SR could collect charges for every creepkill (maybe up to 10) and when he uses his first spell he gains +"x"hp-heal/damage for every charge.

I prefer:
For every additional hero in range of his first spell it gains bonus damage/heal maybe in % of targets hp. This would give him an pretty awsome teamfight potential even in lategame. This way he would be forced to play with the team to show his potential which would be a contrast to all the ego-agi-carry-heros.
For example: SR and lanemate vs one enemy - he gains no bonus damage but a little more heal. He gets ganged alone vs five - he gets no bonus heal but high damage.

[Jlesaistu]

meh imo just making him like his dota counterpart would be nice....bonus mana from killing and ennemy and little buff to his dps aura.

but if S2 really want to make him diferent...i say you can simply boost the healign power of his nuke a little more, maybe reduce the mana cost a little and speed up projective speed, they are so slow than a fast heror can run all the map down to his pool withous ever being hit -_-

damage aura could use a buff, either damage up a little or make it lifesteal, what woudl help make SR a lot more tanky, what eh is supose to be.

[zajoman]

Instead of dealing magic damage with his aura...
It directly removes HP instead of dealing magic damage. If it did, it would prevent usage of PK.


F - Passive, instead of gaining mana back on deaths of units, instead gains mana back equal to a % of damage dealt to all enemy units. Syngergizes greatly with aura and judgement!
Yes, but also motivates players to simply auto-attack everything in their way, which in this complicated game isn't the ideal thing to do in the lane phase.


Sticking to analyzing the hero this time:

Here's a list of all the nerfs that happened to the style of hero (Defiler is in the exact same boat):

-Very weak ultimate at level 6. He pretty much gains a 100 to 150 damage nuke with a 1.5 second stun on a long cooldown. What do you want the hero to do with this.

-With similar farm to other heroes, is less of a problem to deal with (if disabled, his short cooldown heal doesn't matter, if he has say 15k worth of items, your carry with 15k worth of items should have no problem dropping him with some help.
I agree with these points. I often doubt if getting the ultimate at level 6 is a good idea or I'd be better off investing in something else. I've seen a few high level players omit the ultimate that early in the game. You don't have that finishing punch power (thanks mostly to the stun component), but rather a stronger presence over time.



Finally, Inhuman Nature should return mana for a hero kill. Only makes sense for a carry.
You mean it should return more than it does currently, right? Because it does - the flat amount. For any kill other than a building.

[zajoman]

And you also mentioned that you think it's a bad build to go max Q and max E, yet that seems to be the go-to build in most cases of competitive SR play, even if it's rare. I don't see anything wrong with it. Competitive teams usually can (or at least try hard to) provide a safe farming environment for their SR, where Q and E are most effective for blazing farm and hardcore pushing. I've been looking for SR high level replays since they added the replay functionality to the game, and have watched all or most competitive VODs with SR in them - yet it's still so little material to work from. That's definitely a proof that his usage is simply abysmal.

[Foerdifuxx]

He's an outdated hero.
Maybe he needs a complete rework of his skills

[Encaitor]

What about buffing his Attack animation, maybe his aura a little bit for the first levels (lowering %dmg and add a static damage?) and buffing Inhuman nature for the first levels so it give something in the lines with: 24/48/48 and 200 on herokill/48, 400 on herokill ? So it is still giving a good amount of mana from creeps if u decide to get it 2 levels if u prio aura and it's really good for getting back mana from ult lategame and should solve ur manaproblems f u max it together with judgement. Thoughts ? (Sry for bad english)

[GregerMoek]

Something I don't like about current Soul Reaper is the kill command of his aura at 0.3 HP (if I'm informed correctly). While I tested how this worked in practise mode, basically any target that had 6 hpreg or more and wasn't above 4k in max health couldn't die from the aura alone, the HP simply lingered at 1. With this in mind (it can't be intended) I'd to the very least change the "kill" part of his aura to be adjusted to something like 1 or 2 HP.

[Tay_z0nday]

I think he should simply get a ms buff like tb should so he could be able to follow or escape...
Maybe set his ms to 310 and give him a better attack animation(do not increase dmg)...
By the way I think it's sad that I'm not even able to last hit when im alone versus creep :)
Also if you try to orb walk you often cancel your attack animation like tb...

[iambests005]

Gain mana from hero kill/assist can be a way to solve his mana problem

[g0dAr1es]

Something I don't like about current Soul Reaper is the kill command of his aura at 0.3 HP (if I'm informed correctly). While I tested how this worked in practise mode, basically any target that had 6 hpreg or more and wasn't above 4k in max health couldn't die from the aura alone, the HP simply lingered at 1. With this in mind (it can't be intended) I'd to the very least change the "kill" part of his aura to be adjusted to something like 1 or 2 HP.

I pretty sure the only hero with a "kill command" is legionare

[Balls`n`Nuts]

1) Increase the duration of the stun or make it inversely proportional to the amount of hp left (e.g. less % hp left [e.g. 90% left] the longer the stun [e.g. 3.5 secs] but higher % hp left [e.g. 60%] the shorter the stun [e.g. 1 second].


2) Deal the damage at the end of the stun and the damage is calculated at the end of the stun.


This encourages the use of the ultimate as an initiator and definitely much earlier than usual. The damage is calculated at the end of the stun duration to take into account damage dealt during the length of the stun. With regards to displacement effects like Stormspirit, the ultimate will trigger at the end of the displacement effect.





So the best finisher, should be used as initiator?
Cutting heroes hp in half is not enough?
The way i see it, he has some downsides but the ulti makes up for that pure and simple.

[Vascariz]

So the best finisher, should be used as initiator?
Cutting heroes hp in half is not enough?
The way i see it, he has some downsides but the ulti makes up for that pure and simple.

Firstly, I dispute that it is the best finisher. I would argue that Magebane's and Legionnaire's ultimates are much better finishers in terms of % based finishers.

Magebane because it has an AoE component and it is much easier for Magebane to reduce someone's manapool than it is for Soul Reaper.

Legionnaire because it has a pure damage component in that it is instant death below a certain % of hp. As such, magic immunity or damage mitigation is of no use. And once again Legionnaire's abilities allow him to reduce someone's healthpool much faster than Soul Reaper can.

Further, I would argue that Pyromancer and Witch Slayer's ultimates are much better finishers for their guaranteed instant damage. Once again because it is much easier especially for Pyro to work down a hero's health pool than it is for Soul Reaper.

In terms of a team fight, Voodoo Jeseter's cursed ground is a much better finisher as it allows your team to contribute to the damage.

Anyway, I think you see my point.

Secondly, the rebuild of the ultimate you will see is to grant Soul Reaper greater utility. It's not a simple buff. The damage component is unchanged, only the application duration extended. Further, you will note when you are in a position to do a larger amount of damage, the stun duration is reduced.

[Vascariz]

I pretty sure the only hero with a "kill command" is legionare

I guess his point is more that there are circumstances when a hero is on a handful of HP, within range of Withering Presence and should die, but doesn't. I myself have noticed this when chasing someone in the jungle. I just chalked it down to luck.

[Hubaris]

I pretty sure the only hero with a "kill command" is legionare

Incorrect.

Withering Presence:



<onframe>
<setvar0 a="target_maxhealth" b="0.004,0.006,0.008,.01" op="mult" />
<setvar1 a="var0" b="-1" op="mult" />
<setvar2 a="var1" b="frametime" op="mult" />
<changehealth a="var2" />
<compare a="target_health" b="0.3" op="lt">
<kill target="target_entity" />
</compare>
</onframe>


If they changed the b value from 0.3 to 1 or 2, it can be a very useful buff to him; subtle but useful.

EDIT: So YES he does have a 'kill' command on his aura. The problem can lie in regeneration.

[lvl7bidoof]

With sr being one of my favs(dont bother checking for plays on this acc, only a sub) I feel that all he needs is more mana efficiency definitely needs a 3.0 int gain a lot more than other heros (WTF defiler?)

His base stats are terrific and he can do his role of a tanky semi carry(I swear to god if you call him a support ill kill your ****ing family and eat their ****ing souls )

[V0LuG]

My idea is to add a different effect to the Staff of The Master on SR.

Since the aura, at least in my opinion, is one of the worst spells in the game mainly because it's magic damage, why not add another effect to the SoTM which makes the aura go like 3-4% hp per second for a few seconds when he last hits someone with his ult? The rest of the hero is fine, but the aura is completely useless early and late, and that small change could give him some more "presence". :soulr2:

[NakedMouse]

My idea is to add a different effect to the Staff of The Master on SR.

Since the aura, at least in my opinion, is one of the worst spells in the game mainly because it's magic damage, why not add another effect to the SoTM which makes the aura go like 3-4% hp per second for a few seconds when he last hits someone with his ult? The rest of the hero is fine, but the aura is completely useless early and late, and that small change could give him some more "presence". :soulr2:

Please double check your facts before posting in Balance.

The aura is NOT magic damage. It is direct health removal (essentially true damage) and it is far from useless. On the contrary it is very powerful and buffing the % is a dangerous prospect. I agree with buffing the range at level 1, but anything else is probably going too far.

[`11411181]

Tripling the effect is quite dangerous, yes - but upping the % incrementally really isn't. It's incredibly underpowered atm because it's hard to apply it from level 1 - which is where it shines.

[Hubaris]

Please double check your facts before posting in Balance.

The aura is NOT magic damage. It is direct health removal (essentially true damage) and it is far from useless. On the contrary it is very powerful and buffing the % is a dangerous prospect. I agree with buffing the range at level 1, but anything else is probably going too far.

Its not the same as True Damage. In theory it applies a direct HP removal but it cannot be amplified or reduced by effects such as Hellflower or Armordillo.
Upping the amount of health removed and the amount of HP required to 'kill' the target would be ideal in conjunction with his range nerf reverted; as it actually allows him some power in the early game which he desperately needs.

[GregerMoek]

I pretty sure the only hero with a "kill command" is legionare
Pretty sure Legionnaire's ultimate strips the target of all buffs and deals something like a million physical damage.

[BigBagOCrabs]

Pretty sure Legionnaire's ultimate strips the target of all buffs and deals something like a million physical damage.

I'm pretty sure that's how it was in DotA, but it is actually a kill command in HoN, could be wrong though

[Satangossu]

How about if his aura would remove 1% hp from enemy heroes and add 1% hp to allied heroes? Is this too crazy?

[Hubaris]

I'm pretty sure that's how it was in DotA, but it is actually a kill command in HoN, could be wrong though

Correct:



<onimpact >
<pushstack a="300,450,625" />
<compare a="target_health" b="result" op="lt">
<kill target="target_entity" />
<playeffect effect="effects/impact.effect" source="target_entity"/>
</compare>
<damage effecttype="Magic" amount="150,250,350" />
</onimpact>


Code for Legios Ultimate. Clearly says Kill.

[Aray]

there seems to be a lot of misconception in this thread. i think i read some people commenting on the heal.

imo sr's biggest weakness is his reliance on farm, reliance on levels, and being mediocre in the laning stage. there is no quick and easy fix for this hero, but a good start would be his horrid movement speed and changing his aura so that it's at max range on all 4 levels + increase % a little bit.

[Eurai11]

SR himself is fine. What he truly needs is better mid-game items.

Buff Nome's Wisdom (+armor, replace Neophite's Book for Amulet of Exile or something cheaper).

Replace Acolyte's Staff from Frostfield Plate. Something like:

Glacius's Scepter
---Neophite's book + Apprentice's Robe + recipe (700)
---16 int
---slows target by 40% for 4 seconds. 100 mana. 30 seconds cooldown.

Glacius Scepter + Platemail + recipe (700) = Frostfield Plate

Frostfield will still be pure int/armor, easier build-up with a more useful mid-game component.


Sorry for charging the subject of the thread but I think that changes would balance A LOT of others underused/powered heroes like Accursed or Balphagore.

[LoLPlaya_]

I know this is not the suggestion forum, but I just got an idea and dunno where else to post it.

I think Wittering Presence should decrease the magic armor of nearby units, with 1/2/3/4 or something. This would fit the skill really well, plus it would be decent against all the vestment pickups.

[GregerMoek]

http://i.imgur.com/0i87R.jpg

Post isn't in the right place.

While that buff is perhaps cool in some ways it would make him pretty OP if one asks me.

[the_guy117]

I think it was powercreep that shat on :soulr: more than anything. Before the days of :alun: and such, Soul Reaper was considered a top tier pick. This was before his most recent buff, too.

[skeloperch]

With sr being one of my favs(dont bother checking for plays on this acc, only a sub) I feel that all he needs is more mana efficiency definitely needs a 3.0 int gain a lot more than other heros (WTF defiler?)

His base stats are terrific and he can do his role of a tanky semi carry(I swear to god if you call him a support ill kill your ****ing family and eat their ****ing souls )

Defiler ****ing needs that int gain, and don't you dare try and say otherwise. Have you seen her damned mana costs? She eats through mana faster than our old buddy Soul Reaper does.


Anyways, SR's problem lies within the fact that he shines in no category. Carrying? Defiler and Torturer are better picks (Defiler isn't even strong). Supporting? PFFFT HAHAHAHAA FAGGOT. Anti-carrying? Pestilence, Corrupted Disciple, Gauntlet, and etc. His only real role is that he can create a huge hp differential between his team and the enemy team, but he can't even do that well due to mana costs, movement speed, and durability.

[Dnakath]

So how do people like the most recent changes?

IMHO, we still need a slight reduction to regen rate via Withering Presence... like maybe -50% innate regen when affected by WP.

[Salem1]

So how do people like the most recent changes?

IMHO, we still need a slight reduction to regen rate via Withering Presence... like maybe -50% innate regen when affected by WP.

That doesn't deserve to be called ''changes'', they are irrelevant tweaks. That's what I think.

[Hubaris]

Soul Reaper needs his Presence to be able to kill a player who is at 1.5% life ish. As of right now it kills at 0.3% and with regeneration it almost guarantees you will never die to it. Its a fairly noticeable change when dealing with even something like ~10 regeneration which is standard on heroes now.

[`Krigsbest]

I like Soul Reaper.
He's one of my favorite ones. Although I know there are alot of crybabies (no offense)talking about SR.
It's about mastering his slow attacks, and yes he will be the underdog early game and yes, he does need quite some farm mid-late to perform well.
Patience. Something alot of people are lacking.
Usually I just go carry build with high survivability and stamina for more support to team and push strategy.
Or I just turn down my enemies cold and go class cannon codex, It's my favorite but it's more risky and more selfish.
His aura nerf (?) makes me always level it lastly because it has zero significance until latest battles.

I know new heroes are sickening compared to this old one therefore yes he might need some kind of buff if you think about that aspect.
However I can't decide if he's borderline or too weak, good evening.

[TMachine]

Sr doesn't need a change. It's one of the strongest heroes in the game and has always been. As hon is evolving you will see picks focusing on heroes that's synergize with certain pick-ups such as astrolabe and barrier idol. SR is one of those heroes. Because it's a "survival" hero that grows stronger the longer the fight goes on it will automatically become more popular when teams DARE to pick him up.
He's not a ganker because he's supposed to bait ganks. This thread is ridicilous in that sense. Why don't you complain about Ophelia having a weak solo mid-game or Nymphora being a bad baiter?

[Cheshirish]

I completely agree that Soul Reaper is an underpowered hero, and I still think he is, even after the recent buffs. I honestly don't think the buffs hit the most important defecits on this hero, although they did of course help. First of all I think his movement speed needs to be buffed. 290 on a hero with no blinks or other movementabilities is just way too low. Second, I think, even with the buff to inhuman nature, he needs a slight adjustment in the manacost of judgement. Just lowering it with 10 or 15 manacost would do the trick i believe.

[gasp10]

i think that a small buff to the aura should works good. a possible no-HPregen for enemy under the effect, or a bit more heal at lvl4 on his first skill.

[Gekikara]

Sr doesn't need a change. It's one of the strongest heroes in the game and has always been. As hon is evolving you will see picks focusing on heroes that's synergize with certain pick-ups such as astrolabe and barrier idol. SR is one of those heroes. Because it's a "survival" hero that grows stronger the longer the fight goes on it will automatically become more popular when teams DARE to pick him up.
He's not a ganker because he's supposed to bait ganks. This thread is ridicilous in that sense. Why don't you complain about Ophelia having a weak solo mid-game or Nymphora being a bad baiter?


you trolling brah?
How bout i DARE you to pick him up and show us a few games of your theory in action

[Tomate]

I still feel like S2 did not address the main issue this hero has which is his ultimate... His ultimate is fairly weak all game long. People can argue that his ultimate is fantastic late game and blablabla but overall, it remains a single target nuke which the less HP the target as, the more it deals but that also has the opposite effect of the less HP the target has, the more irrelevant the stun component becomes.

When looking at the level 1 version of this ultimate, it virtually is laughable. The fact that the stun goes through SH is irrelevant early on as no one as a SH. The damage will on average be under 200 and the stun is 1.5 seconds long... It is a real joke on a forever cooldown.

Until they look at buffing his ultimate (multiple interesting dynamics to do so such as lower cooldown, longer stun duration, better scaling of the ultimate (0.6/0.75/0.9), include a base damage to help the early levels of it, a scaling duration stun based on % of enemy hps and so on and so forth can make the whole difference).

[Katieeee]

Liked the buffs, but I agree with others - still needs tweaks in areas that weren't yet addressed. Maybe make his ult cancel out healing/HP regen abilities for a set time if they aren't killed? That would be pretty devastating. :P

[LongDonSilva]

a scaling duration stun based on % of enemy hps

this is a great idea, then you could decide if you wanted to use ulti for stun or dmg

[Dominare]

I really like the idea about scaling the stun on the ultimate: long stun and crap damage on high HP targets, minor stun and high damage on low HP targets. That would really add some depth to the ability IMO.

His aura has been kind of a joke in lane ever since melee heroes got that free +1 hp regen bonus by default. The range isn't good enough to bother enemy ranged heroes, and melee heroes don't care. There's been plenty of ideas about this already, but mine is to change the scaling to something much more like Empath's passive - both a flat AND %-based effect that remains relevant over a much greater period.

[PlayeroJ]

Wow, at this point people might as well just start posting random suggestions to make SR more viable again; I can't believe they actually added the 2x mana for a hero kill before they actually tweaked a variation of withering presence's range/damage - they're just adding random buffs rather than addressing the issue. No, I don't think his level 1 stun is an issue - yes it's weak.

EDIT: On second thought, I'm not so sure this approach of balance is such a bad thing anymore. Since the "issues" arise from a way of play that was weakened from a nerf to a key strength, perhaps random buffs in multiple directions that are small enough in scale can add up to an increase in overall performance that makes him viable? I agree we're seriously moving towards a great direction with the baby steps, but were baby steps in buffing him second ability such a pointless route, especially considering the overall increase in health regen shift?

[embrance]

Make aura negate HP regeneration at level 4 with SOTM.
Also let ulti be as it is,but add scouts ulti effects(+ % based damage).

[gasp10]

I really like the idea about scaling the stun on the ultimate.
And, as i suggest before, making the aura stop the hp regen will work/scale much better in late game.
i makes some test and in late game 2hp at second on 1200-2000 hp are soo low, on hero with base item, if we take tank or str hero, the aura sometimes have no effect and they regen life normaly.
With a lvl4 aura, no regen/stat item on hero, no base stat (so base regen), at lvl 25 over 5 sec the hero lose 60hp on 1400hp, 70-80hp on 1800hp and 100hp on 2800hp
Vs ra lvl25 with stat (no skill) and only bemoth hearths, the damage is drastically decrease to 10-11hp on 2800hp over 5 sec.
With halve regen the damage go up to 60hp on 2800hp over 5 sec.

If the first test are too much for you (removing regen on aura), i think that halving the regen and/or rescale the effect to .5.6.7.8, should work in any case.

[Ekamo]

With the somewhat recent nerf, I feel this thread has run its course.

If anyone think he needs to be further reviewed, feel free to create a new thread.

Thread closed.