[2.5.16] Kuldra's Sheepstick

[GeorgeCloony]

I have seen some fellow forumers complain about the change to kuldra's, saying it was nerf beyond useful and how s2 never listens to its competitve insight. now regardless of the latter being true or false, the former is completely false in my opinion. I honestly feel like they buffed the item over all by changing its presence a little bit in the game

I originally posted this in a Comp discussion thread but realized this is where it belonged and was looking for some opinions
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I honestly dont feel like it was that much of a nerf at all. yes the duration of the cc went down like 29% and the cool down only reduced by 23% but does that make it a nerf?

In my opinion not really. comparing individual numbers to its self will "reveal" that it may have weakened the item. But there are other ways to view it. Look at this comparison of the two with both numbers taken into effect

[VALUES ARE INCORRECT/MISTAKEN PATCH NOTES]

(Seconds of CD)
(Seconds of CC) = CC Efficiency

New Kuldra's

35
2.5 = 14

Old Kuldra's

45
3.5 = 12.857

So we have our ratios, lets compare them

14
12.857 = 1.08809 (+9% efficiency)

We can actually do this another way and get the exact same results by comparing the values to themselves

3.5
2.5 = 1.4

45
35 = 1.2857

1.4
1.2875 = 1.08809 (+9% efficiency)


So even strictly from a standpoint on data alone i feel like the "nerf" wasn't really a nerf at all. But again data alone, i wouldn't necessarily call it too much of a buff either. But as I am about to discuss, every good hon player knows that heroes of newerth on paper doesn't mean ****.

As much as the duration and cooldown play a (possibly most [open for discussion I suppose]) important role in the value of the item or ability, I think we should focus our intention on its actual pros and cons.
Starting with cons its hard to identify them all since they are only subject to source, a shorter duration. The cons from this item will be more apparent in game due to pure team and enemy team makeup from buffs/debuffs/seriously i cant even begin to enter the realm of individual cons in game. But we can discuss the benefits from this "nerf" alot more easily

In my opinion, the most important and game influencing part of a stun is the first frame that it lands. so much more is happening the moment the stun has landed compared to the last few seconds of it. you have stopped them from casting, you have very likely changed the entire course of the skirmish or teamfight, and with some stuns there is a decent nuke attached on; but the biggest deal is stopping someone from casting/channeling. I think every single hon player that knows what is going on would rather have a 2.4 second stun AND a mini stun rather than a sole 2.5 second stun (i italicized this because i dare you to prove me wrong) Why because that .1 second as a seperate cast alone is a thousand times more valuble than a barely increased immobilization.

Secondly, lets look at it where it absolutely shines as one of the most powerful items in the game: The Teamfight

So the only question I feel like needs to be asked is "How long do teamfights last." first off that is a terrible question because they obviously differ all the time, but on average i would have to say about 30 sec, maybe 45; especially the ones closer to the end that have alot more riding on the out come. So with our old Kuldra's we get to use it one time, pretty much no matter what. If the fight was really long maybe twice but probably not. With our new sheepstick, that 10 second reduction is HUGE. that means that most likely, during any teamfight that lasts decently long so that it has some real substance to it, you will almost certainly be able to use it twice. and in the really long ones, maybe even a whopping 3 sheeps can go down. The difference between your 3rd sheep with old and new kuldras is a massive 20 seconds. think about how much can happen in 20 seconds. When was the last time you only had 20 sec on your respawn timer as they were taking the first rax essentially winning the game.

I feel like this nerf was really more of a buff, it gives the item more presence in its second by second influence, and it has alot more turn around potential than it did before in my humble opinion

I know i used this analogy before, but using sheep as an escape mechanism, when was the last time you ONLY needed 10 more seconds on your stun to escape. My answer? not that often because I rarely get pissed off for having a massive 10 sec on my cd rather than only needing 2 sec. My point is a 10 second reduction on almost any stun, ignoring content of the stun itself, is a benefit.

TLDR: looking at data and application, i truly feel like this was more of a buff than a nerf and was surprised to see much resistance against the change

PS if anyone has a problem with my math please let me know. there were times that i wasnt confident in my value placement and even though i though i had found support for my thesis, i may have talked myself into it. last math class i took was Calc 2 but 3 years ago

EDIT: Ya sorry guys, I posted this a while ago and in another thread we came to the conclusion that the numbers were off. I had read the patch notes when they originally came out and they were wring and those numbers were stuck in my head. I still stand by the all of it (including the math, just obviously different values) so ignore the numbers and embrace the idea. Happy HoNing

[Gorb]

Approved!

[XFlame]

Kuldra's Sheepstick
* Reduced the duration of being a sheep from 3.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds
* Reduced cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds

Your numbers seem to be off.

[ElementUser]

Did you really have to approve a thread with faulty math?

I will quote the posts that shine relevant light on this matter:



Nope, still wrong.

Old sheep: 35s cd/3.5s CC. 10 seconds of cooldown for 1 sec of CC -> 10/1 or 10.0 effectiveness. I dont know where you are getting the 45 second cooldown (which would be 12.85/1).

New sheep: 30s cd/2.5s CC. 12 seconds of cooldown for 1 sec of CC -> 12/1 or 12.0 effective. Again, no idea where that 35 sec is coming from (which would be 14/1).

And incase you didnt notice, a higher ratio is worse, not better.

In both cases, the old sheep is more "effective". And obviously, a longer CC is better anyways.



3/4 of the "pros" thought 3.5s -> 2.5s was too much of a nerf. 3.5s -> 3s was their preferred nerf if anything, which is what a major portion of the people here feel.

I am talking about this link: http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/portals.php?show=page&name=hon-pro-patch-review-nova-kubrick-riser-slickz

In fact, Kubrick was implying that the nerf has a possibility of being excessive as well, so it's more like ~3.75/4.

Anyway most likely overnerfed, people would've felt that it was fine if the duration went from 3.5 seconds to 3 seconds.

[Gorb]

Did you really have to approve a thread with faulty math?
PS if anyone has a problem with my math please let me know. there were times that i wasnt confident in my value placement and even though i though i had found support for my thesis, i may have talked myself into it. last math class i took was Calc 2 but 3 years ago
Please remember to follow the subforum rules, especially if the OP is willing to admit mistakes and/or learn in the process.

EDIT@below: off-topic; taken to PM.

[ElementUser]

I have already brought the relevant posts as to what he did wrong - the OP in this state is more a source of confusion with the wrong numbers, so they should be corrected whenever possible.

[Jonasies]

I feel like this nerf was really more of a buff, it gives the item more presence in its second by second influence, and it has alot more turn around potential than it did before in my humble opinion


No, just no.


Most teamfights are over in under 30 seconds. A chase for the last survivors may, however, carry on a bit longer but its not really that relevant.

1 second less disable on a key target (carry, or heroes with powerful supportive abilities) is a HUGE deal in teamfights. That extra second could determine wether the target dies or escapes.

I believe that the nerf was a bit too much, considering its cost and build-up etc. Tbh I would rather have seen a nerfed cast range or an added cast-time instead, to atleast give the target some time to react before getting sheeped.

But really, you can counter a sheep-stick by positioning yourself correctly and with: :Stormspirit: :ShrunkenHead: :Nullstone: ( :NullfireBlade: ).

[PowerBro]

I got to admit that this was pretty irrelevant...

-30 to 45 seconds teamfights?
Teamfight outcome is more often than not decided in 10 to 15 seconds. A very long teamfight will be 30 to 35 seconds... Teamfights now a day look more like this:
-Pebbles jump in and insta gib glacius.
-Behemoth stuns pebbles and valk hit pebbles to 3/4 of his HPs. Both teams engage in the squirmish, parasite insta gib plague while armadon starts to stack the quills.
-15 seconds from initial engagement, it's 4v1 for 1 team and the 1 of the other team is on the run, end of fight.


-cooldown being 45 seconds to start with? It was 35... so it's a 5 seconds reduction.

-You're comparison of 2.4 second stun + a mini stun or 2.5 seconds is such a dumb argument. You compare 2 spells to 1. This argument is completely false. It is the same as comparing 3 1 second stun to a 3 seconds stun. They fulfill completely different purposes.

-Overall, I believe it was a nerf and an unjustified 1 at it. It already is hard enough to find people willing to play support that nerfing sheep stick is like telling those guys: Well, you barely wanted to play support, now you don't feel like playing support at all. Even with farm you will have even less impact than before. So you might as well stick to wards for ever.

Having a plague putting his hands on a sheepstick was a game changer. Now, I wouldn't say so.

[LordTroll]

Just because 1 number is off, his point remains very valid, his post comes with opinions beyond the mere numbers like he said himself. After all, it's room to discuss the new Sheepstick, not just silly statistics like efficiency increase or whatever.
I personally think it's very much fine at the moment and decreases the issue of Sheepstick stacking on every non hard carry hero if the game goes on for long enough. 1 single sheepstick is still very strong if you can follow up properly, if anything it's less foolproof / "cast it and profit since your team can take ages to react!"
I mean, 2.5 seconds of instantly cast disable is great for any purpose.

[Poroksi]

I got to admit that this was pretty irrelevant...

-30 to 45 seconds teamfights?
Teamfight outcome is more often than not decided in 10 to 15 seconds. A very long teamfight will be 30 to 35 seconds... Teamfights now a day look more like this:
-Pebbles jump in and insta gib glacius.
-Behemoth stuns pebbles and valk hit pebbles to 3/4 of his HPs. Both teams engage in the squirmish, parasite insta gib plague while armadon starts to stack the quills.
-15 seconds from initial engagement, it's 4v1 for 1 team and the 1 of the other team is on the run, end of fight.


-cooldown being 45 seconds to start with? It was 35... so it's a 5 seconds reduction.

-You're comparison of 2.4 second stun + a mini stun or 2.5 seconds is such a dumb argument. You compare 2 spells to 1. This argument is completely false. It is the same as comparing 3 1 second stun to a 3 seconds stun. They fulfill completely different purposes.

-Overall, I believe it was a nerf and an unjustified 1 at it. It already is hard enough to find people willing to play support that nerfing sheep stick is like telling those guys: Well, you barely wanted to play support, now you don't feel like playing support at all. Even with farm you will have even less impact than before. So you might as well stick to wards for ever.

Having a plague putting his hands on a sheepstick was a game changer. Now, I wouldn't say so.

Umm, sheep stick isn't really a support item, with that I mean that it is VERY hard to afford a sheep stick with a support hero

[too`smithie]

I personally dis-agree and have to go against S2 for changing Sheepstick.

Kuldra’s is an item that has always been bought late game and is used to lock down hard carrys, most commonly seen on intel carrys – HAG, DR, Puppet, Aluna, Tort, Bubbles.

Sheepstick has won many competitive matches whether it’s been on one hero or 5 and is the most expensive intel item in the game and for good reason.

The 2.5 Second CC time is not enough in my opinion, considering that this item has a cast time and that your team has to actually re-act and attack the disabled target.

It’s a fact that later in the game heroes have survivability through, Armour, HP etcetc. I personally feel that a 2.5 second disable on a magebane with HOTBL, Vestments, Geo’s etc (insert stat item here) is lacking enough to kill

If I were to change Kuldra’s I would start by reducing the casting range.

Now I’ve made this suggestion before in a previous thread and Ekamo tried to make a discussion of this.

Adding an item timer to Kuldra’s similar to puzzle box. E,g one hero on the legion purchases Kuldra’s timer starts for 5 minutes before the next on can be purchased.

OP you have stated that you think Kuldra’s has been buffed because of the Cooldown nerf. Please compare this to other ‘right click’ stuns and there cooldowns’

Andro’s comet – 1.75 sec stun, 10 sec CD
Hammers, throw – 2 sec stun, 14 sec CD
Aluna’s lightning – 2 sec stun, 12 sec CD (on red 1st target)
Vodoo’s cocktail – 1.5 sec stun, 14 sec CD (initial bounce)
Blacksmith’s fireball – 1.5 sec stun, 12 sec CD

^ if you look at the stun duration vs cooldown you’ll soon notice that Kuldra’s is subpar to all of these abilities if we use your logic. Please also keep in mind that these stuns are for free, Kuldra’s cost 5675 and that if we look at this from a late game aspect the damage on the hero stuns shouldn’t be a huge factor here.

I personally think it makes more sense to pick more stunners now..

[LordTroll]

The thing is, a purchased instant disable shouldn't be able to lock down a hero by itself. That's why you saw up to 3 sheepsticks in some comp matches, or a disable plentiful lineup... This makes getting multiple sheeps actually balanced, it was pretty dumb to queue 2x 3.5s instant cast disables.

[Alten]

Sheepstick will still be acquired because cc is always going to be significant to some degree. While it will be less of a rush item, it will still be a viable pick-up on many heroes.

[man_guy]

It would be more interesting if S2 are adding different CC items like Dota2 has recently (Rod of Atos, Heaven's Halbred, Ethereal Blade, Abyssal Blade). Sheep Stick is still going to be the goto item that you get after core if you aren't the main dps. The CD reduction is largely irrelevant.

I still think the Storm Spirit change needs to be reverted back to Dota if they can't split having the enemy range to 600 while allied range is shorter. It is an awful item offensively now.

[Skyve]

Kuldra’s is an item that has always been bought late game and is used to lock down hard carrys, most commonly seen on intel carrys – HAG, DR, Puppet, Aluna, Tort, Bubbles.

And how often do you see hardcarries? Maybe the answer to that will give you an idea of why the item was changed.

[Tupimus]

And how often do you see hardcarries? Maybe the answer to that will give you an idea of why the item was changed.
Or maybe it's just that semicarries don't start the game with two missing limbs. And they're S2'd to the point that they rival the endgame potential of actual hard carries...

[Yk`Lagor]

My worry is that with the sheep stick nerfed the next step will be to nerf pollywog priest and witchslayer who both have the same ability as the sheep stick, although i suppose that all depends on whether these heroes begin to be picked up a sheep stick replacement or not.

[Irysa]

WS and Polly hex dont have the shitloads of range that sheepstick has.

[Rosgath]

My worry is that with the sheep stick nerfed the next step will be to nerf pollywog priest and witchslayer who both have the same ability as the sheep stick, although i suppose that all depends on whether these heroes begin to be picked up a sheep stick replacement or not.

You're not likely to see this. The problem that Sheepstick and Hellflower had was this; they were so powerful that they were strong considerations, even on heroes who weren't designed to pick the items up. In competitive play it wasn't uncommon (should the game actually last for a long time) to see multiple sheepsticks even on heroes like moraxus. I mean come on, sheepstick on Moraxus?!? The item itself obviously eclipsed other item choices for anyone who wasn't a carry, so it was nerfed.

[da_fume]

The problem that Sheepstick and Hellflower had was this; they were so powerful that they were strong considerations, even on heroes who weren't designed to pick the items up. In competitive play it wasn't uncommon (should the game actually last for a long time) to see multiple sheepsticks even on heroes like moraxus. I mean come on, sheepstick on Moraxus?!?

I fail to see your point, there are plenty of examples of agil and str heroes that benefit from large mana pools, mana regen, and an extra cc. Furthermore, having your cc items on a hero that is going to be in the middle of the fight insures that the right target gets the cc since you will most likely be in range of even the players trying to stay at the fringe of the fight. :tund::hamm::monk::lord::damp::behe::magm::gaun: :gemi: :engi::arma::fayd::phar::mida::pebb::mora: are very viable holding :KuldrasSheepstick: or :Hellflower:, many of these have basically the same role as :mora:.

[Tay_z0nday]

You just show him he was right...
This item wasnt a support items like it should have been...
Pro was even buying it with heroes such as ra and zephyr because they can farm 4 times faster than a support heroes...

Let me tell you that Ra dont buy this for a larger mana pool...
This items was op and had to get nerf...

[Rosgath]

I fail to see your point, there are plenty of examples of agil and str heroes that benefit from large mana pools, mana regen, and an extra cc. Furthermore, having your cc items on a hero that is going to be in the middle of the fight insures that the right target gets the cc since you will most likely be in range of even the players trying to stay at the fringe of the fight. :tund::hamm::monk::lord::damp::behe::magm::gaun: :gemi: :engi::arma::fayd::phar::mida::pebb::mora: are very viable holding :KuldrasSheepstick: or :Hellflower:, many of these have basically the same role as :mora:.

You actually put a lot of heroes who do NOT fill the same roll as moraxus but that's beside the point. Moraxus is just an easy example, not to be construed as the main point of my post. The items typically gotten by moraxus are tank/durability items. The fact that he can get sheepstick and it's considered a viable pickup is the problem. ANY hero can get it and it isn't a bad pickup. Generally speaking items and their effect shouldn't be so powerful that it makes it strong on every hero.

I guarantee your team would complain if you got Riftshards on :myrm:, but sheepstick's activate is so powerful that I can get it even on heroes like SS and not take flak for it.

There are exceptions to the above of course. Consumables are all excluded from this. Excessively cheap, if not consumable items, are also exceptions to this (i.e. Hatchet, Mystic Vestments).

[Skyve]

Or maybe it's just that semicarries don't start the game with two missing limbs. And they're S2'd to the point that they rival the endgame potential of actual hard carries...

It certainly isn't the only reason. It still is a big one.

[Glibber`]

Despite being too strong, I don't understand why they cut off a WHOLE second. 1/3.5 is huge, if you'd reverse it it would be 2.5+1/2.5 (almost 33 and 50% >.>). ((not math, just relating the numbers))

I can see they'd want ffp and fws etc. brought back/be useful, but imho 3 seconds would have been the place to start with.

[LordTroll]

0.5 seconds is nothing, might as well not touch the item at all. I respect DogKaiser for having the balls to nerf 1 second, as it should be.

[Dominare]

I think people are mostly agreed that it wasn't so much sheepstick as multiple sheepsticks. One alternative would have been to make sheeping someone also add a temporary status effect (perhaps similar to the item's cooldown) such that each consecutive use had half the duration or something.

In other words, an example using the old kuldra: you get sheeped by player A's sheepstick for 3.5 seconds. This hexes you as normal, but also gives you a 40 second status effect. Once the hex ends, player B uses his sheepstick on you, but because you have the status effect, you're only hexed for 1.75 seconds. If player C has a sheep too, you'd only be hexed for about 0.8 seconds.

I pulled the numbers out of my ass ofc, but hopefully you get the idea. Leave individual kuldra strong, nerf the utility of stacking them (as with Astrolabe etc).

[KiRaYaMaTo]

yes why not make it that the first hex gets the full 3.5 then the second depending on the first one how much time after he did the first one starts from 1-1.5 then increases too 3.5 over the cooldown somewhat of a thing like barrier idol

[Urith]

Sheepstick was overpowered, but the nerf was a little too big in my eyes. They should've added some stats to make up for the cc.

[RikiP]

sol's bulwark and sheep are two utterly overpriced items at the moment.

[Glibber`]

1 second is a lot when you're talking about 2-3 seconds. Not elegant or delicate at all.

If the stacking was the problem, simple cd for the item itself like pbox, or as mentioned above diminishing return on the use of it, would've been maybe better.

Also *would have been the place to start with*.


Feels more like a show move, covering up poor balancing/designing. Changing numbers can make a hero or item instantly god or thrash tier, so while doing so I prefer the baby steps like they did with Ara.

I'm not saying sheep was bad, just that there were several other options to adjust the item (and that I think 1 second was too much yes).


Inb4 hf op and nerfed, ffp being (indirectly) buffed into god tier (that will happen, someday xD) and meta change.



edit: And yes, it's still really expensive. At least i can see magebane smiling ^^ ((tons of heros that aren't versatile as some newer heros, thus lacking stuns/disables, just sayin))

[Antimodus]

both items offer something that no other items can achieve: armor reduction on buildings and instant hex respectively. How do you decide how much gold is it really worth? There are no data points except those items themselves...

[Theburned]

would also tell that cooldowns above 15 seconds are worthless anyway, as a teamfight will rarely last over 20 seconds.

[stuvis]

I think that the item was in need of nerf, but not a huge one. Should have been nerfed to 3,0 s and then go from there.

[Arexys]

DogKaiser himself said in a podcast on honcast that he was totally aware that most people will say 1 second is too much, as they did in SBT, too. But when they used it most realized that it is just fine. He also added the point that often you don't use sheepstick as only disable, you use it as an initiation disable to stack other disables on it like pyro's dragonfire etc. and therefore 2,5 seconds is just enough.

[Th3Vo1D]

No, just no.


Most teamfights are over in under 30 seconds. A chase for the last survivors may, however, carry on a bit longer but its not really that relevant.

1 second less disable on a key target (carry, or heroes with powerful supportive abilities) is a HUGE deal in teamfights. That extra second could determine wether the target dies or escapes.

I believe that the nerf was a bit too much, considering its cost and build-up etc. Tbh I would rather have seen a nerfed cast range or an added cast-time instead, to atleast give the target some time to react before getting sheeped.

But really, you can counter a sheep-stick by positioning yourself correctly and with: :Stormspirit: :ShrunkenHead: :Nullstone: ( :NullfireBlade: ).
Pretty much this.
It's a lategame item and we all know the only thing you do lategame is teamfight and teamfights don't happen every 30s. Also the 5s differance is negligible.
I don't think that the 3,5s hex was the problem, more like hexing the target from your base and them having no time to react, a simple nerf to the range would make it fine, if the enemy carry has the reactions he will pop his SH, before he gets sheeped turning the fight.

[GregerMoek]

Pretty much this.
It's a lategame item and we all know the only thing you do lategame is teamfight and teamfights don't happen every 30s. Also the 5s differance is negligible.
I don't think that the 3,5s hex was the problem, more like hexing the target from your base and them having no time to react, a simple nerf to the range would make it fine, if the enemy carry has the reactions he will pop his SH, before he gets sheeped turning the fight.

You mean before the battle starts then? Because the only thing he can react to is the sound of Portal Key more or less, Sheepstick is as instant as it gets.

[Th3Vo1D]

You mean before the battle starts then? Because the only thing he can react to is the sound of Portal Key more or less, Sheepstick is as instant as it gets.

By this logic every disable is OP, since you can just PK in and use it.
Deadwood PKing in and ulting your carry, Bubbles PKing in silencing and ulting everyone etc.
Every PK initiation is instant and hardly counterable there is where wards, positioning and smart play comes in.

My idea was to bring the range down so you can't sheep someone from a safe distance.

First they make breaking chain stuns with Stormspirit impossible, then they nerf a cc item not sure what is S2 trying to accomplish, maybe bringing the base lane down or something.

[man_guy]

By this logic every disable is OP, since you can just PK in and use it.
Deadwood PKing in and ulting your carry, Bubbles PKing in silencing and ulting everyone etc.
Every PK initiation is instant and hardly counterable there is where wards, positioning and smart play comes in.Items all carry 0 cast time. Most hero disables are not instant.

[Glibber`]

Indirectly this buffs the need for reliable (preferably long range with or without pk) disables, so I'm not really a fan of it.

We'll see if hf needs to be nerfed, that item just got buffed due to this imho. Atm I think sheep is a bit overpriced.

[Qweret]

I discussed a lot in the old Sheepstick Balance Discussion. I saw no point for the item itself beeing overpowered, beeing the most expensive intel/cc item in the game and a good luxury. Only the fact that multiple sheepsticks seem quiet imbalanced(same as Ring of Sorcery:RingOfSorcery:) was a problem.

Now, it beeing hard nerfed together with it's hardest enemy: :Hellflower: It feels like Hellflower is better in most(like 80% ?) cases. Your team will have enough disables, the problem is the enemies disables, and therefore disabling item usage/lifesteal/mana burn/spell usage and increasing damage taken by 25% for twice the time that Sheepstick does, seem very much stronger.

Today i bought them both on Aluna, Sheepstick and Hellflower. The obvious better item for me was Hellflower in that matchup, my sheepstick wasnt much noticable at all.
But thats just my experience, no competitive results.

[Gorb]

Hellflower will suit those Intelligence heroes whom have the potential to output a metric tonne of damage, like Aluna. Picking a single hero and attempting to compare a directly-offensive item and a support/disabling item is, well, quite silly. In my opinion, naturally.

[Easy_Lee]

Hellflower will suit those Intelligence heroes whom have the potential to output a metric tonne of damage, like Aluna. Picking a single hero and attempting to compare a directly-offensive item and a support/disabling item is, well, quite silly. In my opinion, naturally.

Wrong, both items serve the same general purpose which is CCing a target so they can be taken down. Whether there are heroes who prefer one or the other, that doesn't mean that it's "silly" to compare them. That's like saying it's silly to compare ghost marchers and steam boots.

Both were nerfed because they gave unconventional lineups a better chance of beating those tanky lineups S2 seems to be in love with. With the nerfs, tanks just got a lot more powerful, and that's something this game did not need.

[Gorb]

Are you telling me that Madman could, pre-nerf, pick Sheepstick over Hellflower, because Sheepstick grants the combat bonuses that favour a hard carry like Madman?

Both items do not serve the same purpose at all.

[Roefl]

Wrong, both items serve the same general purpose which is CCing a target so they can be taken down. Whether there are heroes who prefer one or the other, that doesn't mean that it's "silly" to compare them. That's like saying it's silly to compare ghost marchers and steam boots.

Both were nerfed because they gave unconventional lineups a better chance of beating those tanky lineups S2 seems to be in love with. With the nerfs, tanks just got a lot more powerful, and that's something this game did not need.

He's not totally wrong since the kuldra gives survivability and hellflower doesnt, it gives pure attack speed and damage which makes it an more offensive item then kuldra would, I have never seen a hellflower on a support in competative.

[iNsania]

I'm don't usually post in this forum so I'm sorry if I break any rules or alike.

Also I'm sorry if I repeat what somebody has already said because it was just sooo much text for me and I honestly couldn't be bothered nor had the time to read whilst I really wanna express myself on this topic.

With that said, I think some of the factors that you need to keep in mind is that a 3.5s stun with a 45sec cooldown spell is MUCH more useful in a teamfight than a 2.5s stun with a 35sec cooldown simply because the likeliness of you using a sheep twice in a teamfight is very low anyways, I can't recall the last time a teamfight lasted 35seconds for me in a competitive game. So, just to clarify, this change was for sure a BIG nerf on the item.

However, to whether the nerf was needed or not, I don't think the item in it self is too strong however when they stacked up they just became an insane teamfight tool. I like that they tried to adress the problem but I simply think they did it the wrong way. I would much more have prefered if they made a simple max 2 sheeps per team limit like it used to be in competitive gameplay before.

And I just saw some posts about a madman getting a hellflower or a sheep. Ofcourse the hellflower is a better choice there simply because it gives what a carry type hero needs. mana regen, attack speed and heaps of damage whilst sheepstick gives just a little bit of hp (+190hp) and mana regen. Simply put 9/10 hellflower is a better choice over sheepstick on a carry hero no matter what you are facing.

~iNsania

[Easy_Lee]

Are you telling me that Madman could, pre-nerf, pick Sheepstick over Hellflower, because Sheepstick grants the combat bonuses that favour a hard carry like Madman?

Both items do not serve the same purpose at all.

Notice I said same general purpose. Just like different boots serve the same general purpose: make you faster, hellflower and sheepstick serve the same general purpose: cc the target so they're easier to kill. The proof is in the details, because you'll notice both items just got nerfed. CC just got nerfed.

Because of that, tanks got stronger. Perhaps it was inadvertent, but tanks like zephyr, cthulu, etc are more powerful now because they're harder to kill. Everyone who's not a tank is now weaker because the best tools for killing tanks: kuldras and especially hellflower, just got nerfed.

Also I can't help but notice that you deleted my earlier post in this thread, that the original post was wrong to the point of having false data, but you approved it anyway just because it defended S2. That was very mature of you.

[`11411181]

Try harder to find a conspiracy.

[HahaYouDied]

sol's bulwark and sheep are two utterly overpriced items at the moment.

yet they are still picked up every single game, nothing wrong with that.

[Antimodus]

Because of that, tanks got stronger. Perhaps it was inadvertent, but tanks like zephyr, cthulu, etc are more powerful now because they're harder to kill. Everyone who's not a tank is now weaker because the best tools for killing tanks: kuldras and especially hellflower, just got nerfed.
The only heroes who got stronger on a relative scale are witch slayer and PWP because their disables are now better in comparison to purchasable CC - and, along with them, most autoattacking carries in the game.

CC was not the weak point of tanks, the opposite: Heroes like Zephyr do their area denial/aoe damage (+Mock, etc) even while CC'ed, but most auto attack carries, or other types of heroes were 100% shut down by it. Not to mention the objective of the tank is to redirect CC and damage from teammates in the first place.

The autoattacking carries were always the highest priority targets of sheep, so a sheep nerf has been a categorical buff to all of these carries, and a nerf to the small number of INT carries that would almost always get Sheep and were balanced accordingly. Soul reaper, defiler, DR, Tort were all nerfed indirectly by the Sheep nerf.

Tl;Dr
Autoattackers buffed
INT carries (including the flash farming nukers like midas or bombardier) nerfed
Initiators, Supports, Gankers mostly unaffected

[Glibber`]

Antimodus, there's another side to that blade imho, certain heros like dr, tort etc got buffed indirectly as well due to them being less cc'd when being countered with this item.

And I'd like to add certain key heros like tempest, magmus, old vind, witch, tort etc that can either disrupt your team or to prevent them from initiating (or break their channel), to high priority (depending on the game ofcourse). Not everyone will have shrunken + some things are superior, so sometimes there's no point to disabling the carry when you're whole team is going to be cc'd in some way. No offense, just wanted to add.

[Gorb]

Notice I said same general purpose. Just like different boots serve the same general purpose: make you faster, hellflower and sheepstick serve the same general purpose: cc the target so they're easier to kill. The proof is in the details, because you'll notice both items just got nerfed. CC just got nerfed.

Because of that, tanks got stronger. Perhaps it was inadvertent, but tanks like zephyr, cthulu, etc are more powerful now because they're harder to kill. Everyone who's not a tank is now weaker because the best tools for killing tanks: kuldras and especially hellflower, just got nerfed.

Also I can't help but notice that you deleted my earlier post in this thread, that the original post was wrong to the point of having false data, but you approved it anyway just because it defended S2. That was very mature of you.
You don't pick Hellflower on Madman to cc the target so they're easier to kill. You pick Hellflower on Madman for the permanent presence of Mana for Stalk and the increased attack speed and damage.

At least, that's just my opinion on the subject.

The silence for annoying targets is the icing on the cake.

There is a difference between arguing that cc got nerfed, and arguing that Kuldras and Hellflower fulfill the same role.

[Gorb]

Archived.