Vindicator

[erkdajerk]

So as you may all know, the new vindi is nothing compared to the old one, and i would like to change that.

I started by gathering what was bad about old vindi, which was:
- The drain is powerful early, but awful late
- The silence aura screws up comboheroes like pebbles/MK (a good thing, but not for S2)

Then i looked at new vindi, and what is bad about him, which is:
- The new Q is horrible during all parts of the game unless given atleast 18 seconds to stack up some int (which does 200 magic damage, unless opponent has magic armor), something you dont have when the opponent is at your base and you need to defend on your own due to being the first one to respawn.
- The new E is just bad. Attackspeed isnt even half as good as the old intstack/steal was. And the new passive just makes me lol at how awful it is.
- He isnt surviving at any part of the game due to not having any cc.

Theese are my changes:
- Give him the old drain back, but different. (note, the drain is the only thing thats keeping him alive in laning not by killing, but by preventing the opponents from killing him)
So my suggestiong here is to change the drain to drain 5/7/8/10% of hp, and then drain 100/120/130/150% mana based on how much hp it drains.
So if the target has 1000 hp, and you use drain level 1 on it, you will drain 50 HP and 50 mana. I am not happy with how this one turned out, will need help with this one.

- Give him the old e back, but with one small change, the aura doesnt work if you're stunned. You still get the part of him that scales so well into lategame (intstack/steal), and the aura can be countered by stunning him.


Opinions please, especially on the aura, as it could turn out really op when used on a tank lategame and you drain away 10% of the ****ers hp.
It could get a higher CD or something?

Edits was dont to the q.

[Thysios]

I think it's way too early to know how good/bad the change really is.

[erkdajerk]

So, what are your opinions on my suggestion?

[Deva]

I totally disagree I love the new Vindi, and think his Q rework is rly good.
Why?
- Still has a low cooldown harras tool for laning phase
- Gives int and takes int can be huge especially against int heroes, also it synergizes with W.
- It is a very good tool for pushing, since Vindi is an int hero but basically only has 1 active skill (since ult has long cd), you can spamm to push, which makes Vindi more viable.
- Conclusion gives vindi the ability to do more in the game than with old Q.

With the E skill I have to agree that the old one was stronger, and I currently dislike the silence effect of the new one.
The reason would be that in HoN the first damage dealt is mostly caused by spells so Vindis passive will probably silence heroes that already cast their spells (with chain disables its a different story).
What I would do to change this is to make it trigger with spell damage, +giving the targets an immunity to the passive silence over some seconds, so heroes like Arma do not get 100% countered.
The attackspeed aspect is ok, it shows that Vindi is supposed to be a carry like Flint that stands outside of battle and just pounds his opponents to death.

[erkdajerk]

I totally disagree I love the new Vindi, and think his Q rework is rly good.
Why?
- Still has a low cooldown harras tool for laning phase
- Gives int and takes int can be huge especially against int heroes, also it synergizes with W.
- It is a very good tool for pushing, since Vindi is an int hero but basically only has 1 active skill (since ult has long cd), you can spamm to push, which makes Vindi more viable.
- Conclusion gives vindi the ability to do more in the game than with old Q.

With the E skill I have to agree that the old one was stronger, and I currently dislike the silence effect of the new one.
The reason would be that in HoN the first damage dealt is mostly caused by spells so Vindis passive will probably silence heroes that already cast their spells (with chain disables its a different story).
What I would do to change this is to make it trigger with spell damage, +giving the targets an immunity to the passive silence over some seconds, so heroes like Arma do not get 100% countered.
The attackspeed aspect is ok, it shows that Vindi is supposed to be a carry like Flint that stands outside of battle and just pounds his opponents to death.

I based this rework around giving vindi back his old E. (with my change ofc)
Give him his old e back, and keep his new q, he suddenly becomes REAL OP, so q has to be changed too.

[erkdajerk]

Edits were made.

[Erosiccu]

I am also really disappointed with Vindicator's rework. He is absolutely terrible and less fun to play now. I agree with OP's statement that Vindi was ok in lane because he prevented other heroes from killing him. The strategy fit with his whole theme of being smart/intelligent/cunning.

He was one of my favorite heroes and I would really really appreciate looks into how he could be fixed from this rework.

[Pandabearium]

Your suggestions are actually really interesting. The concepts are great. Of course s2 would have to play around with the numbers for your sage's lore to get it perfectly balanced, but the concept is good. Your suggestion for his e is also good. S2 could even add disables such as channeling spells, hex, and things like succubus' sleep and cyclone to the list of things that would momentarily stop Glyph of Silence, and I would be still be happy.
I am actually really surprised that s2 chose to completely ruin Vindi like they did. Even if there were some people who wanted vindi to be nerfed, all they had to do was decrease the damage and mana drain from sage's lore, and decrease the length of the silence from Glyph of Silence. That is how they nerf all the other heroes, by just tweaking their skills a bit, why can't they do that with vindi? It was completely unnecessary to remove 2 of his skills and give him 2 new and terrible ones.

[erkdajerk]

I agree with OP's statement that Vindi was ok in lane because he prevented other heroes from killing him.
Exactly. Vindis lane didnt get kills, but neither did the opponents in it.
Suddenly the game revolved around ganking, a teamwork-enhancer.


Your suggestion for his e is also good. S2 could even add disables such as channeling spells, hex, and things like succubus' sleep and cyclone to the list of things that would momentarily stop Glyph of Silence, and I would be still be happy.
That is a really intresting suggestion, will think about what should affect it and what shouldnt.
(i dont know what you mean by "channeling spells" though.. (also, is hex items like kuldras/stormspirit?))

[Harmannus]

I don't really like vindicators new Q, Like most people in this thread i think. It doesnt really do enough dammage, and the only scaling it has into late game is that it can give you an intelligence boost once people get bunched up in a teamfight. for a remake i'd like to simply see it deal more dammage, or have more utility. His W ability is ok, it used to be 70% i think, but 60 is still nice. Especially with his new E passive that provides attack speed. Sadly the permanent intelligence steal is gone, but thats something i can understand; it could really spiral out of hand becouse it worked on assists too. But to remove it all together, and not make it work just for your own kills... The silence component on W after the remake plain sucks, one of the reason to pick vindi was to hinder big combo busters like Hag, pebbles, etc. I'd like it if they put that back in, with the change that the effect can only happen once on the same opponent for ~10-15 seconds. enough to bust the combo, not enough to ruin all dammage output.
I'm not saying that vindi's remake was a fail, it's still fun to play him and especially the extra AS is nice...but overall it has made him a weaker pick I think.

[LukeTheQuke]

After 2 weeks of constant raging at Vindis change I think it's going to be interesting to see what people think in terms of "fixing" the new Vindi.

My opinions:

Looking at the Q skill alone it isn't bad tbh. It's a descent spell and it does have it's usefulness. Unfortunately it doesn't match at all with how Vindi currently works so it ends up getting 3/10 in score only due to the fact that it is really bad on the current Vindi. It could kind of work if he had survival. The old Vindi had both Q and E for survival, now neither of them contribute to this at all. Sorry to say but Vindi is a walking money bag on lane right now. How to fix it? Either drastically increase his survival from E skill or give this skill either a cc or mana drain. It's really the only way.

Now about his E skill. I don't think I need to point out how bad it is. 0/10 in score no question about it what so ever. It does nothing, absolutely nothing. Looking at how we should fix it, I agree with OP, revert but add the ability to disable it with stun/silence.

[erkdajerk]

Two no-votes, but no posts? lold

Luke, opinions on my ideas?

[erkdajerk]

bump!

[Kache]

I think that disabling the silence aura on stun/silence makes it even more strangely situational. Heroes that don't stun/silence right away in their combos get screwed over (Fayde, MK), but it's absolutely useless against heroes that do (Para, Pebs).

[ImmaYeti]

Vindi is and has always been kinda a paragon hero. If they wanted to help him fill his primary role, should have only changed the sage lore.

[erkdajerk]

Bump!