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Zedor
07-22-2009, 06:46 PM
Current:
Mana Cost: 50/150/250
Duration: 7/10.5/14 seconds
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Effects:
- Unlinks shared vision with allies
- Slows enemy heroes for 5% of their movement speed
- Shrinks enemy hero vision radius to 500/450/400Having no vision but yours, which is reduced aswell, is really an effective way to block your usefulness. Considering the duration on lvl 3 (14 seconds), enemy heroes will be forced to blindcast, blindrun, blindport..
Since it greatly reduces enemy cooperation capabilities in team fights and does that for such a long duration, I propose a nerf.


Suggestion:
Mana Cost: 75/150/225
Duration: 6/8/10 seconds
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Effects:
- Unlinks target hero's shared vision with allies
- Slows target hero for 5% of their movement speed
- Shrinks target hero vision radius to 500/450/400It's a simple change. Lower the duration, modify the mana cost and make the ulti work on a target hero, not all of the enemy heroes.
This change makes it still very effective for ganks and gives the ability to greatly weaken the effectiveness of an important enemy hero in team fights.
I'm not sure if the slow should be 5% or 10% though :/

Comments or other ideas warmly welcomed

tagg1080
07-22-2009, 06:49 PM
I like those changes, but maybe an area effect would be better. Say for example all heroes in a range of 300/550/800 or something like that. This would keep it still a good 1v1 spell, but also add some teamwork too.

Ryno2112
07-22-2009, 06:50 PM
too much of a nerf. it isn't as game breaking as you make it seem. most people use it in team battles, which is a bad time imo. it's a gangking skill, you cast it so no one know's who's getting gangked until it's too late.

BleBla
07-22-2009, 06:51 PM
I like this ut the way it is

FiNGERS
07-22-2009, 06:53 PM
In my opinion it's a little too early to start changing the ultimate. I love it the way it is, and being on a near useless hero like Dark Lady almost warrants picking her. I think it lasts a bit too long, but if it was made single target like you are suggesting, she would be 110% worthless.

Zedor
07-22-2009, 06:55 PM
too much of a nerf. it isn't as game breaking as you make it seem. most people use it in team battles, which is a bad time imo. it's a gangking skill, you cast it so no one know's who's getting gangked until it's too late.
The biggest problem with the ulti that I've experienced is having your base handed to you while you don't know if you can port, run in, use some spells.. and by the time that ulti is over, it's too late.

You're also forgetting the fact that for the 14 seconds you greatly diminish teamplaying ability of the enemy, which is, for a team game, ~10 seconds too long.

Zedor
07-22-2009, 06:57 PM
I like those changes, but maybe an area effect would be better. Say for example all heroes in a range of 300/550/800 or something like that. This would keep it still a good 1v1 spell, but also add some teamwork too.
Hm, you might have a point here. Area of effect probably would be really good, since as it is now, you have 1 button mass confusion.

Ryno2112
07-22-2009, 06:58 PM
that's a valid arugment, the length of how long it lasts, but changing it to a single target? nah bra nah.

Rippsy
07-22-2009, 07:02 PM
If you want to go the AoE route you could have it like Naga's sleep which has a very large AoE radius.

But I think the real fix here is simply to reduce the duration of the effect, or as Limi pointed out in another thread make the effect 'roll off' after its initial cast, this way the longer it goes on the weaker the effect is.

Zedor
07-22-2009, 07:05 PM
In my opinion it's a little too early to start changing the ultimate. I love it the way it is, and being on a near useless hero like Dark Lady almost warrants picking her. I think it lasts a bit too long, but if it was made single target like you are suggesting, she would be 110% worthless.
I disagree that Dark Lady is useless. Great damage, silence, targetable slow and run-in/run-out spell, she could not be useless.
This ulti is way too overpowered to stay as it is. I made my points in the earlier posts in this topic, so I won't repeat them.
The only similarity with this ulti that other heroes have are Thunderbringer and tobeported potm.
Don't know if potm's ulti will stay the same, but it does not hinder enemy teamplay nearly as much as DL does.
Thunderbringer's ulti is mapwide aswell, but it deals damage and gives vision for a short time, it can kill but not block enemy teamplay in a way that you're just running around hoping not to get stomped by the enemy team while waiting for the ulti to expire.

Halving the duration might aswell do it justice, I have no spreadsheets to be able to see it :////////

Blu3
07-22-2009, 07:12 PM
I think the problem about Dark Lady is the manacost of her spells. You can't really use them untill you hit like level 7-8, because you will be instantly oom. Having no mana regen items means that you will most likely be oom after casting ya spells, too. Either that or give her more str/agi per level.

BotD
07-22-2009, 07:16 PM
It's similar to potm's spell.
except it's way better.
it needs a duration nerf.
that's all.
make the duration constant across all levels.
14 seconds is too much.
7 sounds like a nice number

RPZip
07-22-2009, 07:22 PM
To be honest, I don't see any problem with it hitting the entire enemy hero roster. It's a good ganking/escape spell early on, and a good initiator later. It shouldn't get so much stronger in terms of duration between ranks, though; keep the sight distance static at the Rank 2 level, and lower the progression of duration to 10s at Rank 3 (same duration at Rank 1) but make it apply a stronger movement speed snare.

There are other solutions, of course (making it wear off slowly was one that makes sense to me too), but that'd make it less weird late-game. You'd certainly have to buff some of her other abilities if you nerf the Ultimate, but that's something that should be done anyway.

Darkstrand
07-22-2009, 08:26 PM
I'd be willing to support this, if they atleast fix her mana problems. Lower mana cost on either spells or give her some more +int per level.

Inkie
07-22-2009, 08:34 PM
How about making it a passive aura with 500/750/1000 range which takes away allied vision and reduces sight (maybe not as much as it does now) to heroes near Dark lady.

Zedor
07-22-2009, 08:35 PM
A passive aura is much stronger than the ulti now.

10s is too long still, the duration needs to be halved at least

KatyPerry
07-22-2009, 08:36 PM
How about making it a passive aura with 500/750/1000 range which takes away allied vision and reduces sight (maybe not as much as it does now) to heroes near Dark lady.

No.

Also her Ultimate needs work, it is easily countered through talking to each other. If everybody knows where everybody is you can meet up no matter what. Also if Cover of Darkness hits, everybody is on alert and tries to get somewhere safe. Yes, it is an initiator, but most of the Ladies I've met used it way too early.

FuzzyWuzzy
07-23-2009, 04:33 AM
Reduced duration by half imo.

14 seconds is way too many, most team fights are decided in 3-5 seconds with strong initiators. 7-8 seconds will be perfect.

ubidat
07-23-2009, 05:07 AM
The Dark Lady's ultimate is fine as it is... Its not "overpowerd" its not even "Good"....
Is very very usefull when used properly in a co-ordinated gank, other than that its not that great... Its easily overcome and does no damage? The slow is hardly noticable.

The 14 sec time on it is there for chasing when and the intended target doesn't know if he's getting intercepted or not.

In my opinion is perfect as it is.

-ubi

Io
07-23-2009, 06:22 AM
This spell is downright overpowered. Because it takes you friends sight away too. Please think about this spell in competitive play. One team would have to stand together to see each other and help eachother. Any strong AoE would completely wipe out a team. Option 2: you spread and die one by one. 14 seconds is damn long. In a good team ths enough to take out up to three opponents or at least 2 with a slow/disable on target 3

Glorify1
07-23-2009, 06:57 AM
The Dark Lady's ultimate is fine as it is... Its not "overpowerd" its not even "Good"....
Is very very usefull when used properly in a co-ordinated gank, other than that its not that great... Its easily overcome and does no damage? The slow is hardly noticable.

The 14 sec time on it is there for chasing when and the intended target doesn't know if he's getting intercepted or not.

In my opinion is perfect as it is.

-ubi

Prime example of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. It's the most game breaking skill in the game.

ubidat
07-23-2009, 07:06 AM
So, she'll be an insta ban choice then? not really a problem, if the other team doesn't ban her then it their fault? :P
And a decent team wouldn't get run-over by this spell, they'd either know everyone is missing and a gang is about to happen or run to safety as soon as its cast..

HonStinks
07-23-2009, 07:28 AM
Everyone in this game is already bundled up into a 5 man gank patrol 24/7 so they see each other regardless of whether this skill is used or not.

KatyPerry
07-23-2009, 07:29 AM
Just use voice, it will nullify her Ultimate. Maybe someone gets unlucky and raped, but yeah, otherwise it's pretty useless.

Kien2
07-23-2009, 07:32 AM
If u want to nerf her ult buff mana cost of her other spells first, cos now she doesn't even have mana to use all 4 her spells in 1 fight w\o a tonn of mana items.
Edit: oh and buff cd of her only *carry* 1 skill, w\o it she's nothing.

Tr1cKSt3R
07-23-2009, 07:46 AM
Well, i was playing with friends earlier against a dark lady and it wasn't actually as bad as it seems. I always thought it was imba too but when she ulted, i'd just ping myself and we'd gather... than anyone who came in our 400 sight range got ****ED UP lol. I think they should just lower the duration and take off the slow.

Kry1
07-23-2009, 09:15 AM
Dark Lady is a weak hero except for her ult. If you want to take that away the hero is in need of a rework.

rhodric1
07-23-2009, 11:23 AM
This is one of the most OP ults in the game right now. It allows your team to pick off targets one by one for 14 seconds, which usually results in death of 2-3 heroes late game. Reducing it to half of its current duration (~7 seconds) at level 3 is perfect.

furu
07-23-2009, 11:28 AM
This ulti is pure awesomeness and unique, Just reduce duration a bit.

Dergeist
07-23-2009, 11:33 AM
+1 for reducing duration. 7 or 8 seconds at level 3 sounds about right.

Xitras
07-23-2009, 11:52 AM
The concept is good, leave the spell as it is, if it needs nerfing just nerf duration a little.

WinD_1nside
07-23-2009, 01:29 PM
The idea behind the cover of shadows is to hide what you are doing to a specific hero. If anything an entire allied team can hold hands and walk through the ult, hell if anything it may just unify the entire team to be better then the team with DL. Single targeting it would mean a great reduction in cooldown, and another great reduction in mana cost. Making it sort of like locust swarm for pestilence.

tayuku
07-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Dark Lady's ult has too much synergy with the aoe spells of Tempest, Behemoth, and Kraken. If they stick together, they'll all get hit. If they don't stick together, 2-3 will get picked off. The cooldown is kinda unfair too.

purrgady
07-23-2009, 03:03 PM
Dark Lady's ult has too much synergy with the aoe spells of Tempest, Behemoth, and Kraken. If they stick together, they'll all get hit. If they don't stick together, 2-3 will get picked off. The cooldown is kinda unfair too.

This could be said about any hero in the game. Hero X has to much synergy with Heros Y, Nerf please. I dont know about you, but I play with a friend or two and we use vent. If a team can organize and use any heros ult, then it doesnt make a difference now does it?

Sure her ult may need to be tweaked a bit, but is it any different than say Kraken ulting and running into a crown of heros, warping them back to a group of allies who are waiting on it?

Vibah
07-24-2009, 05:29 PM
The Dark Lady's ultimate is fine as it is... Its not "overpowerd" its not even "Good"....
Is very very usefull when used properly in a co-ordinated gank, other than that its not that great... Its easily overcome and does no damage? The slow is hardly noticable.

The 14 sec time on it is there for chasing when and the intended target doesn't know if he's getting intercepted or not.

In my opinion is perfect as it is.

-ubi

You can't be serious? This is prolly the most gamebreaking and powerful ultimate there is in this game.
Dark Lady will be either 1. autobanned in all competetive plays or 2. first picked.

Lethe
07-24-2009, 06:36 PM
This could be said about any hero in the game. Hero X has to much synergy with Heros Y, Nerf please. I dont know about you, but I play with a friend or two and we use vent. If a team can organize and use any heros ult, then it doesnt make a difference now does it?

Sure her ult may need to be tweaked a bit, but is it any different than say Kraken ulting and running into a crown of heros, warping them back to a group of allies who are waiting on it?

Cover of Darkness is alot more fail-proof then the above scenerio.

DentistDrill
07-24-2009, 07:32 PM
Ulti is a lot worse in competitive play when entire team can talk to each other live. In fact, in HoN as long as you have a team who can use VOIP well you'll be fine.

Lethe
07-24-2009, 07:36 PM
Ulti is a lot worse in competitive play when entire team can talk to each other live. In fact, in HoN as long as you have a team who can use VOIP well you'll be fine.

ROFL no. I've played a few competitive games with Darklady on the other team and I can assure you when she casts her ult that the majority of the stuff on VOIP consists of dialogue not suitable for youths.

Bastila
07-24-2009, 08:59 PM
Yeah... I agree going to single target is silly. I honestly don't see to big of an issue with Dark Lady at the moment anyway and think she's fine the way she is. Now tell me... in a giant team battle would you say this ult is more powerful than Glacius blinking in and using his? Most ultimates are about how you use them... to me the big gripe with this ult is that it's just really annoying... and as others have said.

In competitive play, when you've been playing with a group as long as you have and have VOIP/Vent. This starts losing a ton of its effectiveness.

Dark Lady's ult is fine in its current state to be honest.

Lethe
07-24-2009, 09:01 PM
Yeah... I agree going to single target is silly. I honestly don't see to big of an issue with Dark Lady at the moment anyway and think she's fine the way she is. Now tell me... in a giant team battle would you say this ult is more powerful than Glacius blinking in and using his? Most ultimates are about how you use them... to me the big gripe with this ult is that it's just really annoying.

Dark Lady's ult is fine in its current state to be honest.

Glacius blinks in and uses his shitty ult you stun him. Dark lady casts her ult what are you gonna do? How exactly do you counter that? I'm interested.

Prays4u
07-24-2009, 09:27 PM
Sight wards are uneffected. You can use these to counter her ult for team fights.

Lethe
07-24-2009, 09:29 PM
If wards are programmed the same way as they are in DoTA, a ward belongs solely to the hero who bought it and the only reason your allies can see it is due to shared vision.

If the above is true sight wards are useless. The hero might be able to see the ward, but your allies won't. What's the point?

ma5
07-24-2009, 09:50 PM
Nerf please! Lol.

No but really, any Dark Lady without down syndrome on a team will completely prevent a team from pushing into their base with a decently timed ulti. It is far OP.

Lethe
07-24-2009, 09:53 PM
Nerf please! Lol.

No but really, any Dark Lady without down syndrome on a team will completely prevent a team from pushing into their base with a decently timed ulti. It is far OP.

It's funny too. The idea of dropping vision was an idea that has come up many, many times in dota. It was never implemented. Then we get cover of darkness in HoN. Theorycrafting is one thing, but after being crushed by such a powerful ult it became incredibly obvious why Icefrog was never foolish enough to implement it. Good on him.

xahxah
07-24-2009, 11:22 PM
No.

Also her Ultimate needs work, it is easily countered through talking to each other. If everybody knows where everybody is you can meet up no matter what. Also if Cover of Darkness hits, everybody is on alert and tries to get somewhere safe. Yes, it is an initiator, but most of the Ladies I've met used it way too early.




Um.



Darkness.



Behomoth, Tempest, Slither, or any other hero with an AoE ult, etc.




Watch as you wipe out the whole team.

FuzioN
07-25-2009, 02:42 AM
Having no vision but yours, which is reduced aswell, is really an effective way to block your usefulness. Considering the duration on lvl 3 (14 seconds), enemy heroes will be forced to blindcast, blindrun, blindport..
Since it greatly reduces enemy cooperation capabilities in team fights and does that for such a long duration, I propose a nerf.

It's a simple change. Lower the duration, modify the mana cost and make the ulti work on a target hero, not all of the enemy heroes.
This change makes it still very effective for ganks and gives the ability to greatly weaken the effectiveness of an important enemy hero in team fights.
I'm not sure if the slow should be 5% or 10% though :/

Comments or other ideas warmly welcomed

Keep in mind that Dark lady is one or i think IS the most fragile hero in the game, ok she has sick damage with her blade buff with good items endgame, And ulti but what can she do early? not much. except help with her ulti.

purrgady
07-25-2009, 09:13 AM
Glacius blinks in and uses his shitty ult you stun him. Dark lady casts her ult what are you gonna do? How exactly do you counter that? I'm interested.

Trainingday, from the comments you have given in this post, I feel that you are missing my and others points. If 2 people are coordinating a attack like that. Its not going to matter who the heros are. Period.

Now, when you say, oh her ult is way overpowered. Please gives us your reason besides saying the following: Well when you have another team member come down and stun you and then lady ults its GG LOL. This is a team game. There are ways to counter her just like every hero. She has a terrible mana pool early-midgame. If you are laning alone, and her ult comes up, use a teleport scroll and return to base, or a tower where you last saw a team mate. When she hits six, I can assure you, shes not going to kill you alone, unless she packing a bottle or some kind of mana restore item, if you are paying attention. If she comes with a couple of allies, you probably would have been dead anyways.

"ROFL no. I've played a few competitive games with Darklady on the other team and I can assure you when she casts her ult that the majority of the stuff on VOIP consists of dialogue not suitable for youths." -Trainingday

I can assure you its not. So you mean pub games? Cause when she hits her ult the first thing all of us say when we are on vent is, come back to base or what tower should we teleport to.

Himura1
07-25-2009, 09:21 AM
This spell is downright overpowered. Because it takes you friends sight away too. Please think about this spell in competitive play. One team would have to stand together to see each other and help eachother. Any strong AoE would completely wipe out a team. Option 2: you spread and die one by one. 14 seconds is damn long. In a good team ths enough to take out up to three opponents or at least 2 with a slow/disable on target 3

decent teams will use voice communication to keep in touch. this spell will only affect ranged targeted spells more.

JeffEmming
07-25-2009, 11:07 AM
Even if you do keep in touch it pretty much makes all of your ranged support spells (heals, buffs, etc) about 2 yard range.

Can you see other people's pings while under the Cover of Darkness debuff?

Sordak
07-25-2009, 11:20 AM
wouldnt make any sense if its AoE

Dustbin
07-25-2009, 11:26 AM
You can double click on portraits to still target the screen where allies are during it btw. It doesn't seem such a big of a deal when I'm playing with people I know, we just ping the map/communicate our location via voice.

Lethe
07-25-2009, 12:08 PM
Trainingday, from the comments you have given in this post, I feel that you are missing my and others points. If 2 people are coordinating a attack like that. Its not going to matter who the heros are. Period.

Now, when you say, oh her ult is way overpowered. Please gives us your reason besides saying the following: Well when you have another team member come down and stun you and then lady ults its GG LOL. This is a team game. There are ways to counter her just like every hero. She has a terrible mana pool early-midgame. If you are laning alone, and her ult comes up, use a teleport scroll and return to base, or a tower where you last saw a team mate. When she hits six, I can assure you, shes not going to kill you alone, unless she packing a bottle or some kind of mana restore item, if you are paying attention. If she comes with a couple of allies, you probably would have been dead anyways.

"ROFL no. I've played a few competitive games with Darklady on the other team and I can assure you when she casts her ult that the majority of the stuff on VOIP consists of dialogue not suitable for youths." -Trainingday

I can assure you its not. So you mean pub games? Cause when she hits her ult the first thing all of us say when we are on vent is, come back to base or what tower should we teleport to.

You haven't played against a darklady who has had a behemoth legionaire or kraken as an ally yet have you? There is big reason for panic, and btw these are in games with members of DoP (hs canadian players) that are alot damn better then you, admittingly better then me.

Take a hint sir, cover of darkness has been considered the most powerful skill by all competitive players thus far. Anyone who has played competitive dota knows why this is.

purrgady
07-25-2009, 05:52 PM
You haven't played against a darklady who has had a behemoth legionaire or kraken as an ally yet have you? There is big reason for panic, and btw these are in games with members of DoP (hs canadian players) that are alot damn better then you, admittingly better then me.

Take a hint sir, cover of darkness has been considered the most powerful skill by all competitive players thus far. Anyone who has played competitive dota knows why this is.

I respectfully disagree with everything you have said. No point in arguing for there is no way you can be convinced otherwise.

Travakh
07-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Cover of Darkness would be fine if the duration was reduced and its effect was blocked by Linkens. The duration at 16 is kind of absurd at the moment.

Lethe
07-25-2009, 06:23 PM
I respectfully disagree with everything you have said. No point in arguing for there is no way you can be convinced otherwise.

I don't understand why you keep on talking about countering dark lady herself. Her skillset isn't particularly strong other then her ult. Realistically, Taint soul, Dark blades and charging strikes are not particularly scary skills to deal with. You keep on talking about 'HoN is a team game', and that is EXACTLY the reason Cover of Darkness is obviously OP. So what if you kill dark lady 5 times in the first 20 mins? She is still gonna get to level 6 and cast her ult which will easily break a skirmish or larger fight. Cover of Darkness is OP due to HoN being a team game. I honestly cannot figure out what is so hard to comprehend about that.

jipen
07-25-2009, 11:09 PM
dark ladys ulti .. in reality think of a pro team using it.. in 14 seconds you can freaking kills 3 heros without ANYONE being able 2 see it target them or do anything about it .. nerf the time of it greatly and instead bring up her mana so he's more usefull all around.
rigth now dark lady is a extrem support who can silence ppl and .. 90% of her hero is just.. ulti and gank 2 ppl so it's 5 vs 3 hard 2 win now ? NOT
heh.
but the ide the one who start this thread had was genius except little more nerf say 7 sec all 3 lvls would be fine. Cause now the ulti combined with good players = win game with no doubts.. and that's lame

also you who say *just run 2 same spot talk 2 eachother counter it, .. shud all 5 scream* i'm rigth i'm left i'm in mid lane i'm bla bla bla* same time and hope the others heard all cause you probely got 2-3 sec 2 figure out whose getting ganked first explain were he is and save him......
it's not evne possible it's ridicoulus... were the creators smoking when made up this ulti
i demand a answer! were you smoking when made it up ?