View Full Version : Is He Competitive? (Scout)
I'm going to try and start a new "trend" for some discussion around the clan and competitive forum here. Somewhat like a game/forum thing, I'd like to have discussions every once in a while about a hero that may or may not be competitive. I'll probably be going along the list of most used heroes found here (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/hero_use.php) to give it a sense of order.
SCOUT
Information and Skills: Scout (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroview.php?hid=44)
How could he be competitive?
AoE Silence (donates to teamfights).
Free observer wards.
Good ganker (invisibility/disarm).
Decent carry when farmed.
Great chaser.
Can instagib a crucial hero on the enemy team.
Why isn't he competitive?
Doesn't donate to teamfights as much as many other heroes.
Lack of AoE damage.
Item-Dependant.
Somewhat easily countered (dust).
Low health pool.
Overall, I'd like to ask the community: Do you think he's a competitive hero?
TurpinoS
11-04-2009, 01:16 PM
Obviously he is...best hero in the game imo!
You forget the best : An ultimate to pull off KS................................................ .................which is important since carries need the kills
I'm not involved in the competitive scene, but in my opinion I don't think he's a competitive choice. As you stated his lack of AoE, low health pool, item dependency, but also how weak he is in a lane compared to other heroes. Sure he can get a few kills early on, but there are better carrys, better AoE dps in team fights, and you can buy wards for 200g every 6 minutes. Waste of a pick if someone actually picks him imo.
weeD`SuFFo
11-04-2009, 01:59 PM
There are better gankers, there are better carries..... if at least he had 'track' to mark madman or smth.........
SolidStroke
11-04-2009, 02:11 PM
To disarm, he needs to attack. To attack, he needs to be visible. When he his visible, in melee range, he is going to get his face absolutely molested.
Disarm, while good, isn't supported by his health pool unless he farms killer items.
His flurry is trash. Once he comes out of flurry, does piddly damage 1-4 times (or whatever), all he can do is auto-attack, with mediocre hp and no snares with his trash damage while the enemy likely runs away or uses a stun/snare and lives.
That leaves his wards and ultimate which I think are both good skills.
1/3, poor - cool concepts but not supported by his inherent stats
2, good
4, good
The more I think about it, if Scout was ranged instead of melee, it would be more likely to see competition so he could stay in the background and shoot carries without being in the front lines.
tl;dr : Not competitive.
elelish
11-04-2009, 02:25 PM
In the right hands he CAN be competitive.
Compared to other carries he got a somehow save farm with (nearly perma) invis.
His biggest problem is that he needs to join a team fight really late since he just cant take all the insta-dmg that is thrown out at start of teamfights. He is great for getting low HP runners. He is great for taking carries out of the fight (silence+disarm). He is a great tempest counter. AND he is great in destroying enemies jungle. Blocking a big creep spot with ward (good placed its close to impossible to find it) really hurts the farm of a jungler.
His biggest problem is that he NEEDS to get played aggresive, but he dont got the HP pool to do so. So he really needs a decent player who knows when to attack and when not to.
He got a great rune control. And NOTHING hurts more then a scout with dd on lvl 7/8 when most heroes still got about 800 hp and he is dashing out like 400 dmg (without crit) in 1sec. Depending on crit luck he just insta-gibs a int char in this stage of game.
He is a great ganker from lvl 6/7. Its usually a free-kill when you got a stunner on the lane you go for to gank.
He gots lots of good sides and lots of bad sides. Picking him in the right matchup might win the game, but picking him in the wrong matchup means 4on5.
mjukis
11-04-2009, 02:36 PM
From an amateurs perspective I don't think so. He's good in public games because of stealth. He's not a good carry because he's weak in lane and he can't farm. Saying that he's "a decent carry when farmed" is a misnomer because his skills don't allow him to farm.
Synchronize
11-04-2009, 02:37 PM
-very low health
thats explain enough
elelish
11-04-2009, 02:41 PM
From an amateurs perspective I don't think so. He's good in public games because of stealth. He's not a good carry because he's weak in lane and he can't farm. Saying that he's "a decent carry when farmed" is a misnomer because his skills don't allow him to farm.
Are you kidding?
His skillset is somehow perfect for farming...Wards to see ganks coming. Invis to get away. Incredible Movespeed to get away even when they got Dust/Gem. AND max attackspeed every few seconds for 4 attacks makes him farm really fast.
+his ability to get lots of kills in the early game.
He is not even close to be a bad farmer. Predator is a worse farmer. Madman is worse too. So if i follow your logic then Scout > madman > predator.
So predator suxx? :D
Tanubis
11-04-2009, 02:50 PM
Are you kidding?
His skillset is somehow perfect for farming...Wards to see ganks coming. Invis to get away. Incredible Movespeed to get away even when they got Dust/Gem. AND max attackspeed every few seconds for 4 attacks makes him farm really fast.
+his ability to get lots of kills in the early game.
He is not even close to be a bad farmer. Predator is a worse farmer. Madman is worse too. So if i follow your logic then Scout > madman > predator.
So predator suxx? :D
Predator really isn't picked competitively either.
Madman beats him cold - he's got an aoe line stun, and a way better ultimate that actually synergizes with his abilities. His crit does more damage than scout's disarm. His invis is not quite so good, but he's nowhere near as dependent on it.
Scout is sort of a generalist hero - he's a carry, but not a great carry, he donates to team fights, but he's nowhere near as good as many others for it, his map control is good but not as good as many others, and his stat gain for hp is just pure crap so he dies clean against enemy nukers. If the other team has a single snare, he dies to ganks easily, and he has no real farming abilities.
He's not competitive because he dies too fast, and doesn't do one thing well enough to specialize in it.
*btw, a farming ability is an ability that does lots of easy damage to creeps and/or lets you easily heal or ignore damage from them (predator's lifesteal, legionaires spin/taunt, zephyrs whirlwinds). Quick aoe nukes also count if you can spam them. Scout has neither.
_IaMThoR_
11-04-2009, 02:50 PM
Madman is a bad farmer? Lol.
scout is really good if played good, well if you play him to ks only or you seem him played from noob, try to see him with a team of 5 on ts
HatTrick
11-04-2009, 03:24 PM
Hes only good in pubs because of his ability to farm freely against unaware players. How many times you will see a pro stat player fast-pick Scout, cockily assuming he can farm his way to the late game massacre.
In any pub with team synergy, scout is a just an annoyance. I worry MUCH MORE about a smart Keeper of the Forest then I do a Scout
_Archangel_
11-04-2009, 03:26 PM
Situational. If you have a good Scout player he works fairly well, however your opponents can just lay a Ward down and hug it when they push, then you can't touch them.
HONYoda
11-04-2009, 03:30 PM
The only thing you'll accomplish by this post is finding out how many people play Scout 80% of the time to jack their KDR.
The people who voted that he's not competitive choose him whenever they can in pubs because he's so retarded OP. Disarm is three skills in one. Vanish is two skills in one - RETARDED OP.
elelish
11-04-2009, 04:31 PM
Predator really isn't picked competitively either.
Madman beats him cold - he's got an aoe line stun, and a way better ultimate that actually synergizes with his abilities. His crit does more damage than scout's disarm. His invis is not quite so good, but he's nowhere near as dependent on it.
Scout is sort of a generalist hero - he's a carry, but not a great carry, he donates to team fights, but he's nowhere near as good as many others for it, his map control is good but not as good as many others, and his stat gain for hp is just pure crap so he dies clean against enemy nukers. If the other team has a single snare, he dies to ganks easily, and he has no real farming abilities.
He's not competitive because he dies too fast, and doesn't do one thing well enough to specialize in it.
*btw, a farming ability is an ability that does lots of easy damage to creeps and/or lets you easily heal or ignore damage from them (predator's lifesteal, legionaires spin/taunt, zephyrs whirlwinds). Quick aoe nukes also count if you can spam them. Scout has neither.
Actually you should try to understand the content of a post before you quote and answer it...I was quoting someone who said that scout isnt a good farmer...which is just wrong.
And yea, i know what farming ability means. But its not like heroes without "farming abilities" arent good farmers...as i already said scout is a kinda good farmer because he always can put some wards around to see incoming ganks, etc.
And yes, Madman Crits do more dmg. Quote pls where i said anything else.
And yea, Madman got some nice skills for teamfights. But MM also got a WAY harder time to get stronger.
I have never seen a MM getting strong when i played with organized ppl. Its just too easy to hold him low.
But you cant hold a scout low. At least if the game is longer then 30min...
Tripler
11-04-2009, 04:40 PM
yes if the player playing it know what to do and don't stay in stealth just to steal kills
Aoe silence, farm potential, map control and a hard dps carry. He's doesn't have great lane presence, but shouldn't be ganked. Perma free wards, stealth detection and a silence that he can use while stunned makes him viable imo.
_Archangel_
11-04-2009, 04:45 PM
As I said, Ward -> Hug the Ward = invulnerability for a team against Scout.
Proph3t1
11-04-2009, 04:48 PM
As I said, Ward -> Hug the Ward = invulnerability for a team against Scout.
Except Scout has free wards which is pretty huge in a game where there are limited wards on the map. There's a reason why Beastmaster is still used today in DotA, and a big reason is because he has free scouting and he's solid in most respects (good ganker, not the best, can somewhat carry, and the biggest thing he has over Scout is obviously AoE axes). Beastmaster definitely isn't the best in any respect, but he's solid pick.
However, Scout is still too underpowered to be compared to Beastmaster currently. Once he gets buffed a few more times (which I think will eventually happen), he'll start to get picked due to the wards.
_Archangel_
11-04-2009, 05:06 PM
Except Scout has free wards which is pretty huge in a game where there are limited wards on the map. There's a reason why Beastmaster is still used today in DotA, and a big reason is because he has free scouting and he's solid in most respects (good ganker, not the best, can somewhat carry, and the biggest thing he has over Scout is obviously AoE axes). Beastmaster definitely isn't the best in any respect, but he's solid pick.
However, Scout is still too underpowered to be compared to Beastmaster currently. Once he gets buffed a few more times (which I think will eventually happen), he'll start to get picked due to the wards.
1. I don't understand why you compare Scout to Beastmaster, nor how you say that Scout's Wards prevent the fact that a single Ward of Revelation grants immunity against Scout if the team hugs it. Reliability on his stealth is what kills this hero.
2. I haven't seen Beastmaster is used in competitive play at all since... a very long time ago
3. You talk as if free Wards = instant win, but Scout's Wards are just as easy to find and destroy as any other Ward. In fact there's even less viable spots he could put it than a normal Observer Ward, because it has shorter vision range. It's just a matter of counter-Warding the common spots. It's not a gamebreaking advantage to save your team 200 gold per six minutes anyway.
Flat_Head
11-04-2009, 05:52 PM
Beastmaster still gets picked a decent amount in Asian DotA IIRC
main problem with scout that i see is that in competitive play since hes so easy to counter he gets destroyed... but he can also pop up randomly and beat the **** outa the support heroes during a fight.
Just a little fact to put out there:
Electric eye has reveal. That means that the scout can place an electric eye and destroy your ward of revelation, making your 100 gold go to waste and allowing him to go invisible yet again.
RUSty_
11-04-2009, 06:37 PM
played against a very good scout yesterday but we got tree just to deal with him late game which worked very well + my dazzle ;)
edit: when you see a first ban on pestilence in Bd mode, prepare for a first pick scout to follow.
Scout is competitive in a sense that I had to spend 2k just on revelation wards (untill someone dropped an eye).
Zelniq
11-04-2009, 10:29 PM
you guys seem to have missed the biggest problem with scout.
he's weak in lanes.
also a scout team banning pestilence would be pretty dumb, they'd want to grab pestilence first before picking scout as pestilence helps scout out a lot (and also the fact that he's such an awesome hero to pick anyway). they both run super fast, pestilence aoe stuns for him and his ulti provides the needed vision for scout to ult, as well as -armor which is a great help as well. and if possible, add jereziah's protective charm. tho he's probably banned!
but yeah the biggest issue is that the game is largely centered around the laning phase and the early game is so crucial. if somehow he can pull off a solo or be babysat with shaman, i could see it working.. especially with a phase + multiple wraith band build.
jay`t
11-05-2009, 08:05 AM
you guys seem to have missed the biggest problem with scout.
he's weak in lanes..
yeah he really is. i mean, if you're playing bd or something, and you need a carry, and you can babysit him, he can be good but ..
Infinity
11-05-2009, 08:22 AM
Just a little fact to put out there:
Electric eye has reveal. That means that the scout can place an electric eye and destroy your ward of revelation, making your 100 gold go to waste and allowing him to go invisible yet again.
Assuming the other team doesn't pay attention this would actually work.
Zakri
11-05-2009, 08:27 AM
Circumstancial.
Assuming the other team doesn't pay attention this would actually work.
Well assuming you have ranged heroes, you could place the eye and let your allied ranged heroes kill their ward in a few hits. Beyond that, it would be easy for the scout to simply have his allies push another lane defensively so that when the enemy tries to defend it, he can take out the ward and have his allies retreat.
Qwernakus
11-05-2009, 10:01 AM
I reckon he is not a hero to build a competive team around, he is more a "counter hero". If the enemy team gets heroes like Torturer or Defiler, then scout is a good pick, as he can assasinate them in about a second if he gets close. Also, the wards are very powerful.
elelish
11-05-2009, 01:13 PM
I reckon he is not a hero to build a competive team around, he is more a "counter hero". If the enemy team gets heroes like Torturer or Defiler, then scout is a good pick, as he can assasinate them in about a second if he gets close. Also, the wards are very powerful.
yea. and thats it.
Its how i said: in the right matchup he absolutly owns the game. In the wrong matchup he makes the game 4on5.
e.g. there are 3 heroes that turns the game into a pain for scout: Blacksmith, Arachna, Pestilence. Picking him when there is one (or even more) of this heroes in the enemy team isnt a good idea.
But i'd always take him as torturer, defiler, tempest, zeus, ect. counter
aezavelo
11-10-2009, 07:56 PM
Why is blacksmith so good against scout? Wouldn't thunder bringer be more of a counter since his basic nuke reveals, and his ult also does?
Blaky039
11-11-2009, 12:26 AM
He's good at ruining teams!
kuroYMT
11-11-2009, 09:38 AM
I think Scout would be played more like a scout, semicarry than his usual pub carry status. His skills allow him to have great map mobility and map awareness. But doing that would greatly limit the power of your team.
All invis heroes suck in comp dota, for sure. Exceptions was SA who was imba back then.
Ruscour
11-12-2009, 12:55 AM
My clan played an inhouse, our primary carry player chose Scout to see what he could do (the game wasn't very coordinated with mid to high level players).
Early game, he was insane. After a while, the team against him started warding everywhere and then he just got laughed at.
There is no way Scout is a viable pick in a competitive environment.
JIDIz
11-12-2009, 04:39 AM
played against a very good scout yesterday but we got tree just to deal with him late game which worked very well + my dazzle ;)
edit: when you see a first ban on pestilence in Bd mode, prepare for a first pick scout to follow.
Scout is competitive in a sense that I had to spend 2k just on revelation wards (untill someone dropped an eye).
Rofl scout hater, niiice =))
FuzzyWuzzy
11-12-2009, 04:42 AM
He is competitive only insofar as he gives good map control.
If they eventually port Beastmaster or Visage, I wouldn't see why anyone will want to play Scout in scrims / tournaments.
Situational as in, if he's against a good team: no OR if he's against a bad team: yes
Mittsies
11-13-2009, 06:18 AM
It's not that Scout is absolutely worthless -- it's that he's simply overshadowed entirely by better picks. His concept is horribly flawed ('Lone-Wolf Hero') but with enough straight-up crude buffs he could match up better with other competitive picks. He's powerful at picking single targets off, and furthermore can take on almost any hero 1v1 - but as it's been pointed out time after time, he brings absolutely nothing to a team-fight except his flimsy silence.
IMO he needs a remake ... again.
waspeh
11-13-2009, 07:55 PM
Against a decent team using wards and/or bound eye scout is pretty much useless and lacks the ability to really do anything when this happens unlike madman and night hound. The original scout was very much a lone ganker and the remake tried to add some utility but imo just made him more of a pub destroying hero with little effect on competitive play.
Vulpes
11-13-2009, 08:34 PM
I'm curious to see why he is a tempest counter?
to see tempest before she blinks?
He can detonate his Eyes while disabled.
Place an eye near your mates just before a teamfight happens, and tempest is useless.
E: oO Forum is totally crushed. This is a response to post #44..
E2: Also if you'd like to see a more competitive Scout, click on my Signature and discuss ;x
`aNarchy
11-13-2009, 08:55 PM
Why is blacksmith so good against scout? Wouldn't thunder bringer be more of a counter since his basic nuke reveals, and his ult also does?
Since when does TB's nukes(other than his ult) give truesight? How do you plan on nuking scout to gain truesight if he's invis? rofl.
Scout isn't very competitive just because there are better team-based heroes to choose from. He's a valid pick in some instances, but this depends on how you plan to play him. He is a jack-of-all-trades type hero, but you can't play him the same way every time. That is, unless you're pubstomping. He can dish out a lot of damage, and if you somehow know which hero on the opposing team is going to be the game changer, Scout can pull an Andromeda(possibly giving up your life so that your team will win the fight).
Too situational of a hero to be considered competitive, but not situational enough to discourage pub-scouting.
Ruscour
11-13-2009, 11:35 PM
I voted that he's not competitive, but I'd like to change it to situational, he's probably the best tempest counter out there.
To answer your poll : scout can be competitive
In my opinion though : not the best carry
Choosing scout would also mean that you'd have him as your only carry ( or back up carry).
advantages:
1) windwalk - ability to run and gay, chase and ks
2) silence - help team without revealing self
3) ultimate - slow + considerable amount of damage
disadvantages:
1) choosing scout means he's one of your two carry heroes in the game thus eliminating his ganking ability. ( he has to farm to be useful... ... ...)
2) enemy teams would have 2-3 suports and or 1 tank who all of them can get dust/ward. Scout might as well not show himself anymore.
3) ganking - yes he has crit/disarm , yes he has silence. BUT HE IS MELEE WITH NO NUKE. ganking at early levels would be hard for him ( sacrificing farm for low chacne to kill hero)
4) not the best carry : imagine if your enemy has sandwraith or maliken or madman as carry can scout really par up to them? imo it's a waste of pick.
5) stun -> stun -> dust -> stun = useless scout ( bkb first item? i dont think so..)
6) wards cost 200 zeny. dont be cheap
anarchy: " Since when does TB's nukes(other than his ult) give truesight? How do you plan on nuking scout to gain truesight if he's invis? rofl."
His lightning bolt has the ability to reveal invisible units for around 1-3ses. Casting it on a creep would reveal any invisible units nearby or casting it on the target before the target uses invi would reveal him for 1-3secs as well
jtown
11-14-2009, 02:20 AM
I voted that he's not competitive, but I'd like to change it to situational, he's probably the best tempest counter out there.
I'm curious to see why he is a tempest counter?
to see tempest before she blinks?
Proph3t1
11-14-2009, 03:12 AM
1. I don't understand why you compare Scout to Beastmaster, nor how you say that Scout's Wards prevent the fact that a single Ward of Revelation grants immunity against Scout if the team hugs it. Reliability on his stealth is what kills this hero.
2. I haven't seen Beastmaster is used in competitive play at all since... a very long time ago
3. You talk as if free Wards = instant win, but Scout's Wards are just as easy to find and destroy as any other Ward. In fact there's even less viable spots he could put it than a normal Observer Ward, because it has shorter vision range. It's just a matter of counter-Warding the common spots. It's not a gamebreaking advantage to save your team 200 gold per six minutes anyway.
Beastmaster still gets used sparingly by European teams and still gets used quite abit by the Asian DotA teams. Not the best pick out there, but solid in alot of respects.
CaptZav
11-16-2009, 01:04 AM
Since when does TB's nukes(other than his ult) give truesight? How do you plan on nuking scout to gain truesight if he's invis? rofl.
Know what you are talking about before posting, or you sound stupid. Zues has had this in dota as long as I can remember.
Taken directly from HON's website
Blast of Lightning
Activation
Deals 100 / 175 / 275 / 350 Magic damage to target and stuns for 0.1 seconds. Gives vision and reveals stealthed units around target for 3 seconds.
Nuking scout with this move makes him unable to stealth for 3s, which for a hero as squishy as scout, this could be devastating. Also nuking a creep with it (or enemy hero in a fight) also reveals him if he is nearby.
Extreme_Cake
11-16-2009, 12:15 PM
If he was competitive, he'd be used in competitive matches.
Hermanni
11-18-2009, 09:05 AM
Worst hero in the game
long story short
Arkillion
11-18-2009, 09:11 AM
Worst hero in the game
long story shortWrong end of the Marksman's shot? :D
Scout is good, not "amazing" but a good slow/short cooldown/scaling damage ultimate with insane range and short channeling (albeit level 1 which takes HOURS and they go into the fog faster than road runner).
+300 IAS after vanish is useful and can deal alot of damage, good to farm with, good for espionage, eyes good for runing/warding but there's a limit, disarm is awesome if it procs, any melee hero just sits there looking at your daggers slice his throat.
But.
ALOT
Of heroes can **** him like Succubus ****s Maliken IRL.
Pestilence can just dominate him, Puppet can hold + ulti him or craze + DPS, Succubus can hold him, Magebane can attrition him out of mana, etc.
RUSty_
11-18-2009, 06:17 PM
he's ok but nowhere near a top 20-30 heroes in this game
_para
11-20-2009, 03:01 AM
imo scout is that, that his name describes. a scout.
with a scout i do my best to ward the most important spots on the map and try to have a ward available for aoe silence. in team fights i never attack from the same direction my team does. enemies intiatores would rape my ass if i would, instead i attack from behind, not running through the team (eye/wards would make me feeding) but around the corner. fight begins, sniping a lowhp carry or supporter from a hided spot, go invis and hack?n slash the hell out of it. or at least i silence them and hack the enemy carry. its situational.
i dont think that scout is a real carry with his weakness without invis. its more kind of support/semi-carry
sure in pubs he can be a carry if farmed. in serious games you need to play different than in pubs. i like playing scout because i can do alot of support for my team which don?t even recognize my support (mostyl i get "lol only retards pick scout").
my best kill with a scout was a valk between the 2 midtowers where i got a ward. valk chilled there and wasnt paying attention. i sneaked through the woods, intiatet with a marksmanshot and valk goes "WTF!" running around like a chicken. went invis and cutted her in pieces. a pretty normal scoutday ppl would say, but afterwards i portet to base and need to laugh. i dont know why, but it was so hilarious. scout is a well gaming experience.
yea...*sigh*...grandpas stories are best........*nap*
Vulpes
11-23-2009, 10:32 PM
Scout is no Scout at all. He has an Ult for which he needs SOME OTHER GUY TO SCOUT.
His Eyes and possibly Vanish are somewhat scouting tools, but KotF is the better Scout. Or Pestilence.
That Valk had at least 1 Second to see a BIG RED DOT above her head, turn around, leap to safety.
Scout is useless the way he is, and he got nerfed because .. maybe S2 Staff likes Beer.
Gotta make some advertising on my Remake. Go click my Signature, and help. Thanks.
Dataslycer
11-24-2009, 11:42 PM
Going to check Scout's Skills for a bit.
Vanish. Grants stealth and MS. Allows a series of attack when targeting an enemy. Utility, gank, scouting, movement speed. Similarity, Gondor, Ulfsaar, Anub'arak. The first two are not generally used in high level games while Anub'arak wass because of his mean to mana burn along with an extra nuke and an ult that hits the enemy with a backstab the damage equivalent of a nuke while letting him start up close. So this skill isn't actually that bad.
Electric Eye. Places an entity nearby that has decent LoS and true sight range with a silence feature. Similarity, Lanaya's Psi min which is her ult. Silence actually have more utility than slow and has true sight. On the other hand, the Psi mines are cheaper mana wise (10 mana) and more can be placed which makes it much more spammable for map control. There are two changes that can be done to make Scout more comeptitive: 1. Increase the number of electric eye. 2. Increase the range in which he can place this so that he doesn't need to go up close to place an eye, something he doesn't want to do if the enemy has means of true sight. Everything else is fine and Scout can wage a ward war with these things.
Disarm- A crit that disables attack for 2 second....bleh. This skill was even nerfed down to 1 so it went from subpar to useless. Seriously, this skill needs to be droppedand replaced with something that would help him more. Perhaps an AoE that disables physical attack to enemies for a few seconds (yes I'm thinking Invoker's Sonic Boom).
Marksman Shot- Most oftenly used as a Ksing tool, this is actually a good ganking tool and a means to initiate an attack. I'm wondering if this can be changed so it does a large percentage of their current HP instead of a small percent of their max HP and gives a stronger slow.
_Archangel_
11-24-2009, 11:52 PM
By the way, our clan even tried picking him in a serious match. Eyes are worse than they look; in pairs you can destroy the Wards that are often placed on rune spots even without Wards of your own (Which we found out the hard way). One team member stands on the ramp to give (normal) vision on the low cliff where Scout puts it, and then one ranged team member stands next to the cliff to reveal it, and because his teammate provides vision of the cliff he can shoot it down.
BigBadManiac
11-25-2009, 09:45 AM
I voted that he's not competitive, but I'd like to change it to situational, he's probably the best tempest counter out there.
Lol you ppl keep trying to get some kind of excuse to make this hero usefull well hes not hes just some regular pubstomper, the best tempest counter is and will allways be pharao, if there is any stealth hero that will sometimes be played in competitie is NH because of his cloud that is one of the best skills in the game and even that you dont see happening that much. and to the guy that says TB cant reveal invis well go read the skill cause you just need to hit some1 near him with thunder not him directly...
Samich
11-25-2009, 10:28 AM
he's not in any way shape or form even vaguely competitive.
He's in no where near the best tempest counter.
You don't need wards yourself to counter scout wards, they reveal when you stand near enough and in a competitive game its obvious where they will have to be to be in any way useful.
His silence requires you to either place a ward before the enemy team push, which will be revealed and destroyed by any decent team long before it has a chance to be useful. Or of course you could run in and plant it yourself but again that simply won't work against a decent team.
His damage is good with flurry and disarm but you simply won't get the chance to use it before you get murdered.
Dataslycer
11-25-2009, 03:14 PM
That is why I propose that scout should be able to place eyes at a greater range, not just next to him.
Kietharr
11-25-2009, 05:28 PM
Situational at best, after recent nerfs maybe flat out unusable. He does have some decent burst damage, eyes are very useful for map control/the silence, permainvis+ms boost is also useful. His ult is decent because it's percentage based
But he's flimsy as **** and his escape mechanism is countered by dust, has very little ability to put out sustained damage so he can't really carry, yet he has next to zero lanecontrol and must be baby sat to some extent. Simply doesn't contribute enough to the team to justify the slot in most situations. Maybe against tempest, but he's banned in every game anyways.
crappular
11-25-2009, 06:31 PM
Except Scout has free wards which is pretty huge in a game where there are limited wards on the map. There's a reason why Beastmaster is still used today in DotA, and a big reason is because he has free scouting and he's solid in most respects (good ganker, not the best, can somewhat carry, and the biggest thing he has over Scout is obviously AoE axes). Beastmaster definitely isn't the best in any respect, but he's solid pick.
However, Scout is still too underpowered to be compared to Beastmaster currently. Once he gets buffed a few more times (which I think will eventually happen), he'll start to get picked due to the wards.
Yea let's just conveniently ignore Beastmaster's low cooldown AOE stun/nuke ultimate that goes through magic immunity.
matomon
11-25-2009, 06:50 PM
... well in team games he isnt that great but in 1v1 thre is not many heros that can par up with him. Anyone who does 1v1 alot knows there are 3 main heros that people play. Magebane, zephyr, scout. and most the time its scout as he is very powerfull late game.
Dataslycer
11-26-2009, 03:32 PM
I would question how would scout fare against Wild Soul.
Xizel
11-26-2009, 03:45 PM
He's decent with others that can do his job better.
Tenet
11-26-2009, 10:34 PM
The problem with scout for me is that -if- he survives with some items to lategame, then he gains completely insane burst damage.
Even the bugged flurry - all scout needs is his team to stun/occupy the enemy for exactly one second, and he takes someone out - often even if it's the enemy's tank.
I really don't like such burst damage capabilities on any hero.
I think he's a 5th pick in Captain's Mode at best, but sometimes a 1st Pick in Ban Draft, if the pool of heroes is favorable, and you ban his counters.
Kietharr
11-27-2009, 04:09 PM
... well in team games he isnt that great but in 1v1 thre is not many heros that can par up with him. Anyone who does 1v1 alot knows there are 3 main heros that people play. Magebane, zephyr, scout. and most the time its scout as he is very powerfull late game.
Yeah, this is the competitive HoN forum. Competitive 1v1 is an oxymoron.
JewishNinja
11-27-2009, 10:51 PM
Heres food for thought.
None of the players on the first page of the psr ladder have lost a game with scout, going as far as 12-0 w/ him.
Say all you want, trash heroes dont have a 100% win rate on the first page.
He's a situationally good hero, and a decent carry. Not that shabby
Vulpes
11-28-2009, 07:11 AM
Heres food for thought.
None of the HoN Replays/VoDs/Shoutcasts I watched so far got a scout,
even though there were Ophelias (difficult to use here), Legionnaires (overall not really great imo), etc.
Say all you want, competitive heroes are either picked or banned. He isn't. So he isn't competitive.
He's a situationally good hero, and a decent carry, but there are always others that perform his role much better;
Only use he really has is Flurry-Killing the OP Turrent, but that's pretty new.
btw., dont use the HoN Player Stats page for Wins/Loss Ratio with certain heroes please, it's totally bugged.
My Stats (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/player_stats.php?aid=602687); go to .. f.e. Hellbringer. There I got 1 Win / 1 Loss / 1 Disc.
Yet, if you look at the left side of the page, for matches played, you'll count 9.
If I add together all my respective Wins/Losses with the seperate Heroes, I end up with about
95% Wins & only a few games played (f.e. Wraith is on 7/0/2 though 17 matches played); not really fitting.