Nymphora (Nymph's Grace)

[Azariah]

Sweet. So now that there's an appropriate forum for these sort of things, I'm going to copy/paste this here.



Grace of the Nymph

This power absolutely needs changed to something useful. As it stands, I only train this power at level 21-25, because I have no other option. It's completely unnecessary.

A bottle or a mana tube is more than enough to satisfy her mana requirements for the first 6 levels or so. Beyond that, once you've purchased a mid-game item, mana becomes a pretty much irrelevant issue for her. None of her powers are particuarly expensive, and they all have a long (15 seconds or more) cooldown and are not spammable. By level 12ish, there's literally no way that I can run her out of mana.

At those critical first levels, consider the other options. One is a heal that helps her recover from harassment, heals your lane partner, and chases away the heroes harassing you. Another is her stun, which is her only escape, and a key power for setting up ganks. Finally, you can just pick stats, which are necessary to compensate for her fragility - and end up adding to her mana regen and pool size anyhow.

Grace of the Nymph is just not a useful power.

Here's a few responses from the other thread:



Teleport should be renamed to something a bit more imaginative too, I think, but I agree that she could use with a passive. It's worth mentioning that you can use Grace of the Nymph on a partner rather than just yourself, but it's hard to coordinate and not all that worthwhile even if you're using it on opportune targets at exactly the right time.

I'd suggest some kind of passive defense, like you mentioned, or some kind of aura. An aura that lets, say, nearby heroes reduce the mana cost of all spells for X seconds by Y percent after casting a spell, stacking up to Z times would be interesting and let her combo well with heros like Thunderbringer or Pyromancer, but she could just as easily use some kind of defense or even a passive a la Defiler or Wildsoul that reduced the cooldown or amplified the effect of her other abili





You can cast is on other people... Like if SK was in the game, cast it on him and he'd be able to use Reincarnation at no mana. However the skill still seems a little worthless as they only help those who didn't get any mana regen and it requires a constant recast on allies, maybe like the next couple casts are reduced to % of the original the mana cost. Fun hero to play still as is.

Also, I pretty sure it only lasts for less than a minute, so the person you cast it on then feels compelled to cast, evenif it's at a bad time. It would be much more convenient if it lasted like 6 minutes, like shallow grave on shadow priest used to to last.





How about replacing nymph's grace with a slightly toned-down of Obsidian Destroyer's passive? For non-dota players, his passive was an aura that gave himself and allies a chance to recover a % of their mana pool when casting a spell.

Suggestion:
Nymph's Grace
Gives Nymphora and allies in a 500 unit radius a chance to regenerate mana when casting a spell
10/20/30/40% chance to recover mana equal to 10/15/20/25% of maximum mana pool when casting a spell. Chance halved for toggled spells at all levels.

-----------

version 2:
10/20/30/40% chance for Nymphora and allies in a 500 unit radius to recover 75/150/225/300 mana when casting a spell. Chance halved for toggled spells at all levels.

EDIT: added range to aura. Also, version 2 is here in case the scaling regen is too OP on her. Also, toggled spells get half chance because it would be too easy to trigger on orb walkers.



Finally, I wanted to recommend a name change for Nymphora. I think we could do better than having a fairy named "Nympho". :)

Cheers!

[Ryno2112]

I think HankyPanky's suggestion is spot on! Obsidian's aura would be GREAT on Nymph I think. Would deff fill the empty gap left by the current skill, and would make her even more of a support hero imo.

[Sadhe]

I'm a fan of Nymphora as well and don't bother with Nymph's Grace. I like the idea of an aura, but I dislike it being a chance. It's appropriate for Obsidian, since his main spell has 0 cooldown, but not so much on Nymphora.

What about something like "Reduces the mana cost of spells of Nymphora and her allies by x% of Nymphoras total mana, up to a total of y% of the spells mana cost."

x% should be somethign around 5-10% and y% around 50-75%.

[Liquidsword]

I heard they are already tweaking the skill for the next update.

[willtsay]

imo we shouldn't be recycling spells that dota heroes already have into new heroes, as i think a lot of people would like to see the majority of DotA heroes in HoN.'

guess we'll wait for the tweak :)

[Unclejack]

I actually think this spell is useful during early game, especially with hero's with low mana and high mana costing skills with a low cooldown such as Dark Lady, hammerstorm and Jereziah. It wouldn't be the first time these heroes could get first blood at lvl 1/3. After that the skill becomes less and less useful, but some first blood situations are really cool. It is true that these heroes could buy magic regen at lvl 1, but nothing beats 3 Hammerstorm stuns in succession when chasing/initiating at lvl 1/3 (and getting first blood). The skill can be devasting during early game and can be used to harass with specific set-ups and the right time/place. Though if people are a bit more professional it is already a lot harder to actually find a use for the Grace of the Nymph and other than these specific situations it is indeed pretty useless.

Perhaps the skill would be a bit more useful if the cooldown wouldn't be that long or if there are more heroes that have a low mana pool and skills that cost a lot of mana. If they change the skill I would like it to be a supportive spell for sure and I like the idea of something similar to Obsidian's passive.

[FluffyM]

If her secondary skill maybe had a small, additional benefit (heals target for X, restores X mana over X seconds for target, grants +X magic armor for X seconds, anything) it would be fine imo, but the additional benefit would have to scale quite drastically to give an incentive to level it beyond level 1.

So yeah, liking HankyPanky's suggestion.

[KARTlK]

The skill is useful. My friend plays nymph all the time, and if I go veno/slither(400 mana cost for ult on an agi hero) this skill is very helpful. Also very helpful when I'm moon queen and I've been harassing with moon beams early early game, and now I don't have mana for eclipse (or we planned it out so I could and still eclipse). It's really a perfect support spell.

That being said, I have never played nymph, and I know he never levels the skill up early, and we only have good coordination because we're always using voice chat.

[KARTlK]

Hanky's remakes aoe is way too small, you can even be in the same lane and not be within 500 units of each other. 800 is much more reasonable. Although, I don't know how imba ob's aura will be on a non ob hero.

[willtsay]

i see nymph's ability as a gimped version of lich's dark ritual, that spell gives more mana, has lower cooldown, and is a complete deny. only thing good about nymph's grace is that you can cast it on someone else -___-

[obstacle_1]

Man, Nymph is already a very good hero, I played with her 2 times and was the major support (early)/carrier (late) of my team. I think thats OK the way it is.

[Inconmon]

Nymph's Grace should get an additional effect: +10/15/20/25% damage. This way it synergizes will with nymph herself -- selfbuff after stun and autoattack away and works better as buff on allies with can decide if they want to keep the damage bonus or cast a spell for free which takes the bonus away.

[Inconmon]

i see nymph's ability as a gimped version of lich's dark ritual, that spell gives more mana, has lower cooldown, and is a complete deny. only thing good about nymph's grace is that you can cast it on someone else -___-

Keeper of the Light's mana regain is also far better than nymphs grace.

[j00sh]

i see nymph's ability as a gimped version of lich's dark ritual, that spell gives more mana, has lower cooldown, and is a complete deny. only thing good about nymph's grace is that you can cast it on someone else -___-

but that is sorta big

also, lich's nova didn't heal if he stood close to it, so giving the nymph MORE mana returned would be a little silly imo

first time I tried her I thought she was incredibly limited and nearly useless, but I was playing with feeders.. since then I've learned to love her, one of my favorite heroes right now

she has so much synergy with other heroes

[Vodka]

Hmm, IIRC Obsidian's aura didn't have a very large aoe, but I guess a 700-800 aoe would be better.

[willtsay]

imo if you buff grace by much ittl turn into a really good spell.
Yea lich's nova isnt as good in terms of ally support, but it was better in terms of harassing and chasing XP.

maybe you could swap her tp with ezalors recall and make its a normal skill and make grace her ultimate but give it the level 4 cooldown at level 6 or something .

Dunno if she really needs that much of an over haul, as she does do a good job with the heal/damage along with the zeal ability.

but as inconmon said, Kotl's chakra out classes nymphs grace by far as the cooldown is much lower, allowing for more flexible use.

imo if you kept it the same she'd still be a good hero as all of her spells definitely have its uses. maybe it could just give "free spells" based on mana cost. i.e thunderbringers arclightning attack thing could get more casts de to low mana cost, while someones ult would take up all charges. (as you level it you get more charges that act like pseudo mana, except it cant be burned away by attacks.. unless you purge it i suppose)

iono im generally happy with how nymph is XP

[Hibi1]

I have to say I agree with this... This and buffing/tweaking CM's ult...

[Glorify1]

Helps later on with heroes like KRAKEN who have 3 active abilities and no mana base for which to use them. Doesn't help that 2 of them are spammy skills either. However, I do feel it's underpowered, but I mean, it's a 1 point wonder. Up for every push or defend, it shouldn't be costing ANY mana however.

All of her other skills are extremely powerful, so a weak skill is necessary to keep her in balance.

[edxs]

All of her other skills are extremely powerful, so a weak skill is necessary to keep her in balance.

I feel this way as well, though it should be at least as good as a level in stats, otherwise it's wasted space. A weak passive might be in order.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Actually I feel that Enchantress is waaaaay better than Nymph in HoN

Both can heal and slow/stun, but Enchantress with 2-3 Centaurs and Forest Trolls with Nets was very powerful...

This Nymph is a support character that does not support as well as the other support heroes like Demented Shaman or Hellbringer for example.

[Inconmon]

All of her other skills are extremely powerful, so a weak skill is necessary to keep her in balance.

Retarded statement tbh.
Having bad skills adds nothing to the game period

[Vodka]

Retarded statement tbh.
Having bad skills adds nothing to the game period

He probably means we don't want to give her a fourth highly useful spell, or the super-awesome synergy might push her into OP territory.

[Azariah]

Right - and no one wants her to be overpowered.

But having a bad (read nearly useless) skill is poor game design. Otherwise, she actually starts to decline at level 20, when she has to stop taking +stats, and start taking bad skills, while all the other heroes are taking useful things.

She's good, but she's not even close to OP. She's the squishiest hero around, she gets munched on pretty quick, and her 1.5 second directional stun is not going to save her when she's getting ganked from behind. I've never seen a nerf thread about her - she's rarely even mentioned in the lineup of great heroes.

Giving her something that allows her to explode other heroes is a bad idea. Giving her something that makes her even better at supporting her team or staying alive is a great idea.

[Azariah]

Since this power isn't listed in the new patch notes, I'm bumping this thread.

It's still pretty much only taken at level 20+, and only because you can't take more stats :(

[WizEye]

I think she's pretty good right now, and I never ever pick Nymph's Grace unless I don't have an option. It's just too complicated of a spell for me to use on other people. Most people don't even know what I cast on them, and even if they do, it will hardly make a big difference. I'd rather have that slot be filled with something remotely useful, but plz plz don't nerf her :)

[kingcomrade]

Chakra/Obsidian's Passive are ideas I really like.

[Brad1]

Retarded statement tbh.
Having bad skills adds nothing to the game period
Agreed. If her other 3 abilities are so overpowered that she has to be given a 4th shitty terrible useless ability then BALANCE THE OVERPOWERED ABILITIES.

Her heal is just a differently targetted version of Jereziah's heal anyways.
I like Nymphora's Zeal though.

[higherbrow]

Nymph isn't even close to overpowered, and she does good work with support/pushing and can put out reasonable dps for a support slot. But Grace, while a cool idea, is useless in practice. I 'd prefer to see a passive defense rather than an aura, because she is very squishy. When I'm playing an initiator against Nymph, I usually initiate on her just because I can usually kill her with a tank build in just a few seconds on Pharaoh or Electrician.

Puck's phase shift would be interesting, in my opinion, or something like it that would give incentive to not burn her out immediately on entering a team fight.

[Parawizard]

I like grace. Infact it can be a lifesaver in team games. I don't think they should get rid of the skill its a good skill to have. For pubs? Probably not!

[Isin]

Are you ****ing kidding me? You're not supposed to use this on yourself -.-

It's a SUPPORT SKILL. Cast it on a hero like Keeper or Hellbringer so they can have enough mana to double ult.

[Mirhi]

Quite frankly the skill is unbelievably good. Free Black Hole? Free Heal? Free Teleport? Free Pyromancer Ult?

Honestly, if you think it's a useless skill, you've been playing too many low skill games.

[Nidhogg]

Why not just have the Nymph's grace buff last 1 minute (with a 30 second CD) that restores .75 mana a second on you until you cast something (keep the 50 mana cost). Maybe have the mana restored go up slightly, so at max level you spend 50 mana to gain 150-200 mana unless you use your free spellcast. That way it's not a situational tool =P

[Aegd]

I'd like to see something else that keeps up with her theme, and is a good ability that's not really to overpowered.

Mana Flower

Nymphora plants a small blue seed in the ground. This seed will explode into a burst of mana in 4 seconds, restoring friendly heroes mana and draining enemy heroes mana, but dealing no damage.

mana cost 25 (across all levels) cooldown 45 seconds)

LV 1 : restores 75 mana / drains 40
LV 2 : restores 100 mana / drains 60
LV 3 : restores 125 mana / drains 70
lv 4 : restores 150 mana / drain 90

This would be similar to her other ability, but and would be pretty good, but not really imbalanced if you consider the cooldown and cast-time for the seed.

EDIT: You could also add a bit of chaos and unpredictability to this skill, making it so that it only restores mana, but it restores both friendly and enemy heroes. That way it would be a very situational skill, and it really would be a big gamble to use it in group fights, because you wouldn't know if it also ended up helping the enemy team.

[SWARM_THEM]

i imagine this skill is a godsend for caster with low mana pools (behemoth comes to mind).

[Aegd]

i imagine this skill is a godsend for caster with low mana pools (behemoth comes to mind).

It can be very helpful, but it's to situational. The problem is that heroes will not always initiate with their most powerful spell, and you can't really wait to cast Nymphs grace until you think you know a player is going to use his ultimate.

There's also this chance that there are no heroes like Behemoth on the field, and giving someome 150-250 extra mana in a fight doesn't really change that much.

Granted, it could do the difference if you get first blood or not, but it still doesn't change the fact that you never really take more than 1 level on this skill.

[smilingo]

THe free spell thing has some utility I would just reccoment buffing it up, In probably 10 nymph games I havent learned that skill once, so bad.