Countering Shrunken Head on channeling heroes

[sieneh]

One of the most common items gotten on channeling heroes is the Shrunken Head(BKB from DoTA).

Now this particular item gives you magic immunity, only things that will have an effect on magic immune heroes are those attacks named "Superior Magic Damage" and one more underused item.
These attacks are (almost) always ultimates.

So, next time you are annoyed by that Succubus using Hold on one of your teammates, Jester using his Ward or Tempest is sucking you in with his Elemental Void...

Counter them with some of these heroes and their spells:

Soul Reaper's ultimate Demonic Execution which briefly stuns the target(the damage component isn't applied in case of units under immunity)


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/109/ability4_128.jpg


Death Reaper's ultimate cast range (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/?action=view&current=Reaperulti.jpg)

Succubus' Hold - the channeled stun part is still applied, however the damage isn't, the mana drain is still applied though.


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/105/ability4_128.jpg

Succubus Hold max range (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/?action=view&current=Succubusulti.jpg)

Plague Rider's ultimate, the Plague Carrier also disrupts channeling spells(only the initial hit will cause a mini-stun), again the damage isn't applied.


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/108/ability4_128.jpg
Lich ulti max cast range (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/?action=view&current=lichulti.jpg)

Devourer's Devour, again the damage isn't applied, the channeled stun however is.


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/6/ability4_128.jpg

Devour range (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/?action=view&current=pudge3.jpg)

Devourer's Hook is also considered a physical attack, therefor it works as well(not to mention you can just om nom nom the hooked hero)


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/6/ability1_128.jpg
Riskier hook (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/?action=view&current=Pudge.jpg)
Foolproof hook (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/pudge2.jpg?t=1257355794)

Keeper of the Forest's ultimate, Root, is considered superior magic.(a recent patch changed it, so that you can no longer move if KotF catches you in his ulti, if you're under magic immunity, again the damage part isn't applied)


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/25/ability4_128.jpg
Range of the ulti (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/?action=view&current=treant.jpg)
Actual ulti (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/?action=view&current=treant2.jpg)

Legionnaire's Taunt is considered a physical attack and isn't affected by magic immunity.


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/38/ability1_128.jpg



http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/110/icon_128.jpg
All 4 of Pandamonium's attacks are considered physical attacks and can disrupt channeling spells, this is one of the most unique heroes in this matter.


Hellbringer's ultimate, Malphas, works through immunity:


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/93/ability4_128.jpg

Click to see a picture of Malphas cast range (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/Hellbringerulti.jpg)
Actual stun (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/Hellbringerultimatestun.jpg)

Vindicator's ultimate, The Final Chapter, works through immunity:


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/115/ability4_128.jpg

Andromeda's ultimate, Void Rip, is considered a physical attack(push):


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/102/ability4_128.jpg

Level 1 Void Rip Range (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/Andro1.jpg?t=1257355549)
Level 1 Void Rip still (http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/?action=view&current=andro11.jpg)
Level 2 Void Rip range (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/andro2.jpg?t=1257355646)
Level 3 Void Rip range (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/andro3.jpg?t=1257355654)

Pharaoh's ultimate Wrath of the Pharaoh also ignores magic immunity.


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/34/ability4_128.jpg

Maliken's ultimate, Possession is also considered superior magic.


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/96/ability4_128.jpg

Rampage's ultimate, Favor of Sol is considered physical, it applies a bash(and pushes the target at the same time) which works against channeling heroes [Credit goes to Extreme Cake for this part.]

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/117/ability4_128.jpg

Scout's Electric Eye (you know, the skill you should get at level 9!) goes through magic immunity as well.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/44/ability2_128.jpg

Scout eye (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/Scout1.jpg)

Channeling (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/scout2.jpg)

Channeling interrupted (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/scout3.jpg)


On to the item, I mentioned earlier:
The Tablet of Command
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_MajorTotem.jpg
+
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_NeophytesBook.jpg

=http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_PushStaff.jpg

I feel this item is really underused and very rarely thought of when it comes to countering channeling heroes, the uses of this item go way past simply breaking channeling spells.
With the recent changes, the popularity of this item has risen somewhat, but its still underused.
I have seen it used twice so far in a game with 1 or more channeling heroes, not counting the games in which I got it.
So thats a step in the right direction :)

It can be used for saving allies(it pushes the person 500 units in the direction that it is facing), catching up to enemies, drawing a single enemy in(think Andromeda ulti without the hero swapping and a bit shorter than level 1 range), pushing a hero into a group of your creeps for the shaman to heal(though this is really hypothetical :p)...
The range of the Tablet is 800 units.

But, among other things, this tablet is not affected by Magic Immunity, hooray. \o/

Here are some examples:

Tablet of Command CASTING range (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/Tablet.jpg)

Tablet of Command PUSH distance (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/remex_01/Tabletdistance.jpg)


Bash(es)

All bashes and bash like abilities go through immunity, these include: Pestilence's Gore, Chronos Time Freeze, Rampage's Horned Strike and Bash from the Brutalizer. [Credit goes to Suiraclaw for mentioning it]

Another item that works is the Savage Mace, as it contains a chance to do a mini-stun on each hit.[Credit goes to Rygus for mentioning this]

However, this is not something you can rely on(as opposed to the above skills/item) as it is entirely luck based.

[sieneh]

So, uh, any comments or any things I might have missed?

Or did anyone find this useful? :P

[lcite]

im not as concerned with channeling heroes that grab a bkb, since as you have pointed out there are a bunch of counters. the best one is probably good team positioning to minimise the impact of aoe channeling ults.


How do you suggest countering farmed carries with one or more damage item(s) + a bkb? chaining your team's ult disables seems like a huge waste on one hero.

[plos]

Nice and informative guide. Not sure but i always assumed pharoahs ultimate went through magic immunity.

[Pizoi]

Pesti's AE stun is physical.

[sieneh]

im not as concerned with channeling heroes that grab a bkb, since as you have pointed out there are a bunch of counters. the best one is probably good team positioning to minimise the impact of aoe channeling ults.

Thats what you do in a perfect case.



How do you suggest countering farmed carries with one or more damage item(s) + a bkb? chaining your team's ult disables seems like a huge waste on one hero.

Don't let him get there is my first option :P

Long term disable(if he used a couple of charges) by Succubus with sleep/smitten right away after hold wears off, other potential ways are backing off until it wears off :P

Countering carries with BKB is tough, depends a lot on your team setup and your(and opponents) skill.


Nice and informative guide. Not sure but i always assumed pharoahs ultimate went through magic immunity.

Will have to recheck this, not sure on it :)


Pesti's AE stun is physical.

Forgot that too, his damage is magic, yet the stun itself is physical.
Will add it.

[Weishaupt]

Good and needed post. Works as a response to the 'Tempest OP' posts.

[jay`t]

Forgot that too, his damage is magic, yet the stun itself is physical.
Will add it.

pretty sure pesty's stun's damage is physical and the stun is magic

[drivaNce]

Above poster is correct.

[sieneh]

pretty sure pesty's stun's damage is physical and the stun is magic

That would mean its affected by Magic Immunity.

I will have to test this out later and will post.

Also, added some pictures to help explain Hellbringer ulti range as well as Tablet of Command range/push distance.

The pictures are no works of art and are pretty ghetto. :>

[sieneh]

Added some pictures, let me know if the Tablet push range/distance is clear enough.

edit: Pestilence can't stun through magic immunity.

[sieneh]

Added all the pictures, missing Pharaoh ulti only(which will be up, once S2 stops trying to divide with 0) :>

[CJ]

What about tempest's ult?

[sieneh]

What about tempest's ult?

What about it?

It does counter BKB in a sense that the pull/stun effect is still in place, but I really can't think of any reason why would you want to use it to specifically counter one (channeling) hero :p

I'll add it though ^^

[br0wnie]

This was nice, thank you

[Suiraclaw]

Bash goes through magic immunity. So, chronos bash (and ult as well), pesti bash and rampage bash (and ult as well) can stop channeling through immunity.

[sieneh]

Bash goes through magic immunity. So, chronos bash (and ult as well), pesti bash and rampage bash (and ult as well) can stop channeling through immunity.

Yes, but those aren't really things you can control(they are luck based), these on the other hand are things that if/when you do them, its a matter of thinking quick, knowing the mechanics, having an advantage...

As opposed to just being plain lucky :p

[Pizoi]

Could have sworn I've been stunned by Impale through magic immunity, but it must have been a Gore proc. My bad.

[sieneh]

Edited out some errors.

[sieneh]

Added Maliken's ulti.

[sieneh]

Added the bash section

[sieneh]

Some things got added.

[sieneh]

So theres 1.5k views and a total of 10 responses, which are mostly my updates :p

Any thoughts/ideas/constructive criticism about the guide?

[Lolololage]

Doesnt swiftblades ult mini stun and physical damage?

[sieneh]

Doesnt swiftblades ult mini stun and physical damage?

It does indeed mini stun right away, however, the first portion of the attack(initial attack) is considered magic damage and therefor isn't usable on a person with shrunken head activated.

[sieneh]

Fixed some minor typos :/

[sieneh]

Will be adding Chronos ulti(can't believe I forgot that one) later today.

[Extreme_Cake]

May as well add Rampage's horned strike, as it automagically applies a bash (not sure if it works through BKB, but I think it does).

[sieneh]

May as well add Rampage's horned strike, as it automagically applies a bash (not sure if it works through BKB, but I think it does).

I did add it, its all the way at the bottom under the section called Bash(es) ;p

[sieneh]

Hm, I've been having trouble in test mode(3 times so far), with the fact that Chronos ultimate isn't affecting anyone(tried Tempest, Magebane, Pharaoh, all 3 of them could walk around in it with no problems)

[Decency]

Curious about Puppet Master's ult? Supposedly the damage goes through? If you can one shot a channelling hero with it, that's a counter worth mentioning. =p

[LionKingMax]

On a side note, Panda Cannonball wont be able to cancel in time if he has been stunned by magmus Stun + Ult because of the huge leap

[Extreme_Cake]

I did add it, its all the way at the bottom under the section called Bash(es) ;p
I mean separately, as it doesn't rely on a bash - it's a 100% chance.

[sieneh]

Curious about Puppet Master's ult? Supposedly the damage goes through? If you can one shot a channelling hero with it, that's a counter worth mentioning. =p

Thats not really a counter :P


On a side note, Panda Cannonball wont be able to cancel in time if he has been stunned by magmus Stun + Ult because of the huge leap

Well, Magmus doesn't need to constantly channel(like Succubus/Tempest for example), so he is a special case.
Though its funny that Panda will still stun someone even if he is killed in mid air :p


I mean separately, as it doesn't rely on a bash - it's a 100% chance.

You meant Favor of Sol, Horned strike is the bash that is %age based, Favor of Sol is his ultimate.

I'll add it, thanks for the tip.

[Decency]

When Puppet does 1000+ damage, sometimes 200% due to splash on someone not moving, it's absolutely a counter. Dying breaks channeling.

[sieneh]

When Puppet does 1000+ damage, sometimes 200% due to splash on someone not moving, it's absolutely a counter. Dying breaks channeling.

Honestly, I won't put it as a counter simply because its not a real "counter".

Death is the counter to every hero, except the one carrying a token, in which case, he needs to be "countered" twice. :p

[Decency]

If the magic damage from a spell goes through magic immunity, then it's a counter. Very simple.

I'll test it myself, since you're going to be stubborn.

[Extreme_Cake]

Sure, it does damage. Damage is not a reliable counter to a channelled ult.

[sieneh]

If the magic damage from a spell goes through magic immunity, then it's a counter. Very simple.

I'll test it myself, since you're going to be stubborn.

Sure, it does damage. Damage is not a reliable counter to a channelled ult.

I am not saying it doesn't go through magic immunity or it doesn't apply damage, I am saying that: "KILL IT!" is not a reliable counter to channeling heroes since well...

Death isn't a specific counter to channeling heroes, its a counter for every single hero...
Thats the only reason I don't include it as a counter...

[Rygus]

may as well add savage mace to the "bash(es)" section if you're gonna have one

[sieneh]

may as well add savage mace to the "bash(es)" section if you're gonna have one

Oh completely forgot about that one, will add it and thanks :)

[sieneh]

Still have to add Chronos' ultimate with range/radius :/

[Ghidoran]

I believe Demented Shaman's Entangle also goes through immunity?

[sieneh]

I believe Demented Shaman's Entangle also goes through immunity?

No, the part that applies the DoT is magic, but the damage part is physical.

All of Demented Shaman's skills are physical damage.

[sieneh]

Could anyone please give me some info on the 2 new heroes and if any of their skills are affecting channeling at the moment?

I won't be able to play for the next couple of days/a week, so any help would be appreciated.

[Ghidoran]

No, the part that applies the DoT is magic, but the damage part is physical.

All of Demented Shaman's skills are physical damage.

Huh, did they change that? I could've sworn Entangle's ministun used to go through bkb.

[sieneh]

Huh, did they change that? I could've sworn Entangle's ministun used to go through bkb.

It does go if the initial debuff(since its blue) landed BEFORE you activated the BKB. :)

Also, would appreciate info on the Engineer's ulti, I have no idea how it works since I haven't played since the update.

[Hydrangea]

So basically, Shrunken Head gives you Magic Immunity but DOESN'T give you Magic Immunity.

[sieneh]

So basically, Shrunken Head gives you Magic Immunity but DOESN'T give you Magic Immunity.

No, it still makes you immune to every non ultimate spell, apart from a select few that are:

a) Physical
b) AOE+Physical
c) Luck based(like Bash)

[sieneh]

Hm, I'm wondering if people have any more suggestions on how to make this guide better?

Any suggestions on the visual parts of the guide?
Spacing, formatting, spell icons?

The pictures are pretty ghetto as well, I did it all in like 30 minutes and I currently don't have time to do anything fancy with them, but I think they are pretty straightforward, however if anyone has any suggestions regarding them, let me know.

edit: updated the reworked Tablet recipe.

[sieneh]

I decided to add some videos to the guide, mainly the "harder" to aim abilities, like Panda's jump, Devourer's hook and so on...

[delraith]

Nullfire + any disable = counter to BkB

[Lyzerg]

Tablet of Command goes through Magic Immunity and cancels channeling.

[sieneh]

Nullfire + any disable = counter to BkB

Tablet of Command goes through Magic Immunity and cancels channeling.

Did either of you bother to read the guide?

[Blet1]

IN dota a javelin used to be enough since it applied a ministun , is this the same way in hon?

[sieneh]

IN dota a javelin used to be enough since it applied a ministun , is this the same way in hon?

I haven't tested it, but Javelin itself is considered Magical, since BKB gives Magic Immunity, its safe to assume it doesn't stop it.

I know the stun affect isn't applied during Predator's Stone Hide, so I see no reason why it should work against Shrunken Head.

[scol]

nullfire blade's purge rips off the magic immunity, however wouldnt cancel the ulti of course

[konetix]

Hm, I've been having trouble in test mode(3 times so far), with the fact that Chronos ultimate isn't affecting anyone(tried Tempest, Magebane, Pharaoh, all 3 of them could walk around in it with no problems)
You probably spawned the heroes as allied units (under your control) so it that's why it doesn't affect them. When you spawn them make sure to choose the opposite team.

[sieneh]

nullfire blade's purge rips off the magic immunity, however wouldnt cancel the ulti of course

Yup, thats why I didn't include it, also it is highly unlikely you will get a Diffusal only to counter BKB.


You probably spawned the heroes as allied units (under your control) so it that's why it doesn't affect them. When you spawn them make sure to choose the opposite team.

Yup, have resolved it since then, I need to spawn him as "None" and not under local client or something.

[emiltheboy]

tablet of command

[sieneh]

Added Scouts eye.

[Ghidoran]

Deadwood's ultimate, Willowmaker, goes through it i.e. it actually interrupts the channel as well as dealing damage.

[Gumbie]

- Pestilence's stun is Physical.
- Wrath of the Pharaoh is Magic, not superior. It won't stun a magic immune unit.

[D0ri]

What about the push-effect of Pharaohs mummies?

[Vulpes]

- Pestilence's stun is Physical.
- Wrath of the Pharaoh is Magic, not superior. It won't stun a magic immune unit.

Both wrong.
Wrath of the Pharao is (like every Ultimate) Superior Magic and stuns through BKB.
Pestilence Stun is Magic (doesn't go through BKB), only the Damage from his Stun is physical.

Please stop spreading misinformation.

E: Mummy push also goes through BKB.

[sieneh]

Deadwood's ultimate, Willowmaker, goes through it i.e. it actually interrupts the channel as well as dealing damage.

This will be added, thank you.


- Pestilence's stun is Physical.
- Wrath of the Pharaoh is Magic, not superior. It won't stun a magic immune unit.

Both accounts have been covered earlier in the thread.

Mummies are a specific counter and very hard to place, incorporating this (effectively) into the guide would require a subsection more-or-less, as the mummy placement is centered around the Pharaoh.
Anyone who knows how to play Pharaoh well, will(should) know how to place them effectively though.

I might make a new section or check out the Pharaoh guides if anyone made that already so I won't waste time.

I'll do it, as well as start adding videos, when I get some time.
Currently, holidays, exams, work and life in general is affecting my playtime.

[Gumbie]

Both wrong.
Wrath of the Pharao is (like every Ultimate) Superior Magic and stuns through BKB.

E: Mummy push also goes through BKB.

Wrath of the Pharaoh is Superior now? Retard. The STUN will NOT go through magic immunity. If it does, then S2 have some fixing to do.

Wall of Mummies has a push but I'm not sure on whether or not it interrupts channels.

[sieneh]

Wrath of the Pharaoh is Superior now? Retard. The STUN will NOT go through magic immunity. If it does, then S2 have some fixing to do.

They didn't change anything, it was always considered Superior Magic, like all ultimates.
The damage part isn't applied however.



Wall of Mummies has a push but I'm not sure on whether or not it interrupts channels.

It does.

[McHamlet]

how about jeraziah repel???does it work like BKB?

[sieneh]

Yes, it works exactly the same.

Oh, at some point I will update this guide with videos and such, theres nothing really to "update", apart from the pictures and/or adding videos.

[Vulpes]

The Mummy push is somewhat strange.
While it goes through BKB, it only seems to interrupt sometimes, ie if it pushes out of range.
This should be further tested, am too lazy.

[sieneh]

The Mummy push is somewhat strange.
While it goes through BKB, it only seems to interrupt sometimes, ie if it pushes out of range.
This should be further tested, am too lazy.

Recently, Mummies began acting strangely, they sometimes trap the person, trap the Pharaoh from reacting to your commands at all.

I had a game where the mummy on the left side, pushed a go TOWARDS the right sided mummy, while trapping me on a cliff...

Its screwed up somewhat. :/

[Ularyel]

Add chronos bash

[RealTechN9ne]

Pandas Flurry doesnt break channeling

[roarp]

im not as concerned with channeling heroes that grab a bkb, since as you have pointed out there are a bunch of counters. the best one is probably good team positioning to minimise the impact of aoe channeling ults.


How do you suggest countering farmed carries with one or more damage item(s) + a bkb? chaining your team's ult disables seems like a huge waste on one hero.

Pharoah use ulti on the carry, wall, then someone use tablet of command on pharoah = carry trapped inside the mummy wall for 3 seconds = win! :phar::phar::phar::TabletOfCommand::TabletOfComman d::TabletOfCommand:

Another example might be using nullfireblade on the bkb-ed carry. The BKB won't be purged but the slow goes through so that carry won't be running around and slaughtering for a few seconds (doesn't work for warbeast as his ult sets his speed to 522)

Oh and, Tablet of command don't goes through bkb anymore.

[Mental_Block]

Reviving my old guide <3

[Roefl]

All physical stuns, even brutalizer, Rampage,Pharaoh,Devourer,Succubus,Tempest,Behemoth could easily break channeling spells, also you can use Tablet of command to push ur allies away or storm spirit them.

[FrozeNOveR]

Thanks, I really appreciate this being posted