[2.5.9] Elder Parasite

[Bohrain]

Been discussed from time to time, but thought I'd make a thread.
First of all, let's have a quick overview of Elder Parasite.
- grants passively 17% lifesteal on attack, considered as Attack Modifier
- buildup is Hungry Spirit (900g) and recipe cost (1000g)
- when activated, grants Crazed effect (+20 movespeed, +100 attack speed and +15 damage taken, lasts for 12 seconds)

In comparison to other items, it is somewhat outclassed by these two:
- Whispering Helm (grants more lifesteal and has better buildup)
- Insanitarius (as a high risk, high reward item, str heroes benefit more from this item, because it grants more survivability and a generous amount of damage)

The general idea on the item is clear, it gives you LOADS of attack speed and in return makes you squishier. However, it is rarely worth buying, because added squishiness for 12 seconds is too undesirable compared in comparison to alternative methods of damage dealing. The damage taken was nerfed from +20 to +15, but it didn't really affect anything, since you are still shat on if you get stunned while being Crazed.

In order to be more viable, EP needs to be buffed in some way or another, while still retaining the aspect of high risk/reward for reasonable price.
Discuss.

[YawningAngel]

Especially true considering that Lifesteal is now an orb, meaning this item precludes you getting a Shieldbreaker and thus doesn't even offer as much of a damage premium as it should.

Approved.

[dandylion]

Not going to lie, just about any time I see this item being picked up, I berate the player that picked it up, because 99% of the time, it's the worst thing you could do to yourself. At every point of the game, allowing bonus damage to be dealt to yourself is a big fat target that says "I'm ready to die". If the effect could be cancelled on demand (activateable with a cooldown maybe) , it wouldn't be as bad, but could make the item easily abused on certain heroes.

[foxmindedguy]

Hm... How about splitting the buff and the debuff part of the item. So purging yourself could actually get rid of the 15% damage taken, but not the added movement and attack speed?

[Antimodus]

+100 AS and +x% MS with no drawbacks for 1900, sounds legit.

[Kireaktron]

Making it so you can cancel the effect would help a lot. It still competes with shieldbraker etc, which might just be a too big a of a hurdle no matter what you do with the item (within reason).

[Antimodus]

the real benefit of EP is in the +AS/+MS active, not the life-steal modifier. besides, only the life-stealing part of the item is competing with shieldbreaker. not to mention sb applies a debuff for 3 seconds and you can toggle modifiers. The two items actually complement one another very well.

besides SB is usually seen on ranged carries, and EP on melee shrunken head users.

[Sesshoumaru]

What about making the item like this:

You use it and get the crazed effect which does this:

+100 AS
+20% MS
(Just the buffs, i don't know if i forgot something about it)

And then, when the crazed effect ends, you get this for XX seconds:

+20% Damage taken
-10% Movement speed

This way, it makes an useful item for some stages of the game (Where the teamfights only last a couple of seconds because everything explodes very fast) but it will make a bad item for long fights because the debuff would make you very vulnerable once crazed wears off.

Edit: It will also make the item more hard to use, because you will have to know when to use it to not gimp you.

[Antimodus]

excuse me, what's the reason we need to power up this item to godmode level? Simply because it is not picked up isn't a good enough reason. Explain why the game needs this item / lifesteal in general to be a strong choice. All I see is more me, me, me from carry players who forget this game is supposed to be an actual 5v5 match.

[too`smithie]

My main concern with elder parasite is it’s only really viable on heroes that would need to increase there chances or procing an ability or item.. E.g chronos/pesti bash,Sill salvo, nh backstab, flint, brutilzer, saveage. etc.

Other things to consider with elder parasite
-The hero viability of this item is limited and the majority of them aren’t tanky enough
-It’s an attack modifier.
-Gives no stats, damage, mana or hp
-The 15% extra damage taken when activated scales in the wrong direction later in the game.
-Hyper Stone is similar in price and makes demonic breast plate charged hammer

In my personaly opinion elder parasite is only effective in the early stages of the game later on it’s better off being sold or another orb effect being purchasd to work in conjuction with its attack speed bonuses.

We’ve seen Elder Parastie in competative play once or twice, an honourable mention would be AngrieTesties Chronos when he was a member of clan 5. In this particular case shield breaker was purchased later in the game

Some suitable changes in my opinion to make elder parasite more viable
-The item is no longer an attack modifier (possible nerf to the life steal in this case)
-Completely removing the damage taken when activated (small nerf to the duration and CD)
-Changing the build up to give some small stat bonuses (putting more emphasis on it’s early game viability)

Here are some unique changes to the recipie and cost which I’ve thought of
-Sell cost 1500 – 1900g, enabling you to sell it for no real loss
-Being able to split the item so you can re-utilize hungry spirit

[Benny0]

I'm sick of this item being called bad. No, you can't get it on a Flint, or any squishy agi hard carry. Chronos is an exception because of ulti.

This item works well as a farming item and is incredible early on. People need to remember, if this item gives a 15% damage amp, the only time this would've made a difference, if you had 1000 hp (which admittedly isn't much, and this number does get larger, if you got away with 150 hp, EP would've maybe (only maybe) killed you.

It amplifies the damage half of what it does in dota, and people are still acting like it's the full 30% amp.

Incredibly underrated item. If 15% is too high, what % is reasonable? You can't possibly think it needs to go to 0%.

[too`smithie]

I'm sick of this item being called bad. No, you can't get it on a Flint, or any squishy agi hard carry. Chronos is an exception because of ulti.

This item works well as a farming item and is incredible early on. People need to remember, if this item gives a 15% damage amp, the only time this would've made a difference, if you had 1000 hp (which admittedly isn't much, and this number does get larger, if you got away with 150 hp, EP would've maybe (only maybe) killed you.

It amplifies the damage half of what it does in dota, and people are still acting like it's the full 30% amp.

Incredibly underrated item. If 15% is too high, what % is reasonable? You can't possibly think it needs to go to 0%.

No one here is calling the item bad.

The item is under-rated in some cases only. The fact is that it’s subpar to pretty much to every other orb effect available.

You’re statement is partially correct, 15% isn’t high and your right the more hp you get the less that number becomes on the scale of things, but you also fail to mention that as the game goes on hero damage increases.

Can you explain to me logic behind investing 1900g in to elder parasite to increase farm (I assume you mean neutral farm) when I can spend the same amount of gold on Alchemist bones? Or even buy whispering helm which will allow me to farm the bush, and dominant a creep to stack ancients for me?

Also you can buy it on Flint? It’s actually logical to do so with his mass range pretty much reducing his chances of taking extra damage when it’s activated and increasing the change to proc his hollow point shell?

Making the damage taken to 0% upon activation was one suggestion to make the item more viable. Can you suggest something better?

[JoOKie]

Personally I think it's just a trash item especially with all these bursty heroes. I also think there's nothing wrong with having items that are just plain bad. It serves its purpose as a joke item pretty well

Then again this sorta goes against the balancing agenda.

[MadPsycho]

I really don't like the item. Against any sort of crowd control, turning on Elder Parasite is the same as digging your own grave. Even if farmed out with a Shrunken Head as well, I can't think of an instance where Elder Parasite would be the next best option.

[Alten]

There is no point in attempting to buff a situational item; it is situational for a reason, and its existence offers interesting dynamics to certain heroes that can exploit it. We do NOT need another universal hyper-damage pick-up to augment the dozens of heroes with the potential to exploit it in the same manner as Shieldbreaker. There are several heroes, such as Maliken or Chronos, that EP can be considered situationally viable on; there is no good reason to buff the item for its own sake.

[GregerMoek]

Remove from the game or buff heavily with some kind of upgrade.
I hate this item more than anything because it more or less ruins games.

Got a fairly decent TDL/Madman/Chronos/Flint/Pred/NH on your team with a sudden good killing spree? OH NOW WHAT IS HE DOING?! BUYING ELDER PARASITE AND THEN LOSING THE GAME?! ****. Yes this has happened in tournament games too, on TDL and Madman.

A horrible horrible sight.

Ragepost aside, I would rather se it reduce armor of some type by a set amount or remove Attack Modify status on the lifesteal. Or give it some kind of upgrade.

Main issues as I see it.

Debuff makes you squish as a mofo. Even scales backwards.
Attack Modify
Build-up isn't the greatest, even if it's rather easy to get anyways.
Heroes that picks it up are often squishy already (And don't say that Chronos' rewind balances that out)


Positives with the item.

Cheap AS and MS
Good farming item
Good when noone is attacking you.
Good if you have some kind of counter on your attacks (Curse of Ages) or a scaling thing or proc per attack (Carnivorous/Hollowpoint/Bash/Chain Lightning)

[MadPsycho]

There are several heroes, such as Maliken or Chronos, that EP can be considered situationally viable on; there is no good reason to buff the item for its own sake.
Situationally when? Describe one situation that is even somewhat plausible where this item would be a valid pickup. The biggest reason why this item used to be so great on Chronos was because Chronos had a percent based stun. With the introduction of cooldowns to the bashes, stacking attackspeed to lock down a hero using a passive bash is no longer viable.

[Benny0]

No one here is calling the item bad.

The item is under-rated in some cases only. The fact is that it’s subpar to pretty much to every other orb effect available.

You’re statement is partially correct, 15% isn’t high and your right the more hp you get the less that number becomes on the scale of things, but you also fail to mention that as the game goes on hero damage increases.

Can you explain to me logic behind investing 1900g in to elder parasite to increase farm (I assume you mean neutral farm) when I can spend the same amount of gold on Alchemist bones? Or even buy whispering helm which will allow me to farm the bush, and dominant a creep to stack ancients for me?

Also you can buy it on Flint? It’s actually logical to do so with his mass range pretty much reducing his chances of taking extra damage when it’s activated and increasing the change to proc his hollow point shell?

Making the damage taken to 0% upon activation was one suggestion to make the item more viable. Can you suggest something better?

Alch bones and Whispering helm don't give you 20% movespeed and 100 attack speed.

Whatever, this item just needs to get buffed to 4 second stun Nymph tier before people will admit that 20% ms and 100as with high uptime, and yes, a downside of 15% damage amp, is a good thing. Why not make it slow on hit too, and increase the lifesteal during active. Maybe reduce some armor on hit? Or just lower the cost so it can get picked up even faster?

I can't fathom why people can't see how huge this 20% ms and 100 as is. It nearly doubles your bloody attack speed early on.

[AgentOrange]

What about making the item like this:

You use it and get the crazed effect which does this:

+100 AS
+20% MS
(Just the buffs, i don't know if i forgot something about it)

And then, when the crazed effect ends, you get this for XX seconds:

+20% Damage taken
-10% Movement speed

This way, it makes an useful item for some stages of the game (Where the teamfights only last a couple of seconds because everything explodes very fast) but it will make a bad item for long fights because the debuff would make you very vulnerable once crazed wears off.

Edit: It will also make the item more hard to use, because you will have to know when to use it to not gimp you.

I really like this idea, but maybe just tweaked a bit!

[OtherPlayers]

Personally the only time that I ever really pick this up is on ramp, and then it's more for the +20 move speed. There is nothing quite like being ramp with elder+phase boots+stormspirit and being able to maintain a higher average move speed then war beast does (18 of 25 seconds or 72% of the time at max move speed as opposed to war beast's 16/40 or only 40% of the time). Plus since you usually end up getting a shrunken anyways you don't need to worry about being stunned that often.

[Erg]

Honestly, for the item to even be considered it would need to be 5-10% extra damage taken or maybe less.

As stated previously, the item gives no stats at all and takes up an atk modifier slot(with a crappy one at that too). There is no way that anyone would pick an EP instead of the current shieldbreaker on a chronos or any carry.

[man_guy]

+100 AS is nearly double damage early in the game (starting AS is ~120). It is the most slot and cost efficient AS item in the game. If there was a shorter activation time (like 6 seconds), you can minimize / eliminate the extra damage taken penalty around your team's disables.

[GregerMoek]

It's kinda hard to balance an item like this though, I mean sure it's kinda crap and throws many games but in some situations it's like spot on. Those situations are just so few and most of the time it's a throw item.

[Horizon]

Make it toggle-able, rescale the numbers and combinable with insanitarius. Think about it.

[Doomhammar]

Make it toggle-able, rescale the numbers and combinable with insanitarius. Think about it.

Parasitarius

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/252/me-gusta.jpg

[ShenziLaRue]

needs a bit of a rework tbh. the fact that its a modifier makes it undesirable in comparison to other modifiers.

tbh if you really want lifesteal on your carry then get abyssal.

Like give it something else instead of lifesteal or just remove lifesteal and remove dmg taken increase?

[Xhyro]

Make it toggle-able, rescale the numbers and combinable with insanitarius. Think about it.

I thought about it, i think it would be awesome to have another addition like harkons (toggleable orb). That would be like the staple Berzerker item :D

[Qweret]

To be real, you have 6 item slots:

1. Boots
2. Tp Scroll
3. Power supply
4. Vestment
5.
6.

So, in 90% of the time, 3 slots are obviously taken away, not that often even 4.
Sometimes for support-Heroes even 5 or 6(because of Wards and anti-wards)


Would you like to have an item, that gives you no Health, no Mana, no Regeneration, no Damage and that for 1900 in your inventory slot?
Or would you just get a Bracer or try to make an escape/tank/positioning item?


And now again:
Is the item really underpowered?
or is it just that the meta-game let no room for it?

[Anakha]

Not at all. Lifesteal has always been the trash orb, since it's a lategame orb. There is no real lategame anymore, so it's not worth picking up.

[`rnz`]

Not at all. Lifesteal has always been the trash orb, since it's a lategame orb. There is no real lategame anymore, so it's not worth picking up.

+1 The most useless orb atm is lifesteal. Even the nerfed manaburn is better.

Why cant we just simply remove this item? Would be great not having another game ruined when the early-fed hardcarry picks up this rotten **** and puts himself onto carnage.

[Benny0]

How about an upgrade? Part of the reason heroes take Whispering Helm over this item is because it upgrades into Satanic, which is just an incredible item. An upgrade with the same active (maybe less damage amp) + some damage, some lifesteal, and maybe some str would make this more viable as an item, while taking away some of it's problems (crappy orb slot eater that is a risky active, and doesn't really scale well into late game).

Essentially a more DPS based Satanic, as opposed to a survival based Satanic. I love high risk high reward items, and a late game EP would be exactly that.

Please don't remove this item though, it's so good situationally D:

[Alten]

Situationally when? Describe one situation that is even somewhat plausible where this item would be a valid pickup. The biggest reason why this item used to be so great on Chronos was because Chronos had a percent based stun. With the introduction of cooldowns to the bashes, stacking attackspeed to lock down a hero using a passive bash is no longer viable.



You have a point. I'm just trying to say that I see no way in which a remake of this item would be beneficial for the meta, considering it's an early-mid game item and we have so many of those currently dominating the charts as it stands. Imagine a buffed EP with a SB; shieldbreaker is the most efficient early-mid damage dealing item atm, and this fact means it synergizes incredibly well with +AS -- +%MS is also always useful. I can imagine a lot of heroes becoming incredibly broken with a buffed EP.

[Anakha]

EP is an item you pick when you're behind. You get a lot for a little, but only if you can control or mitigate risk to an acceptable extent.
That's the entire purpose of the item, and I think that's important to keep in the game.

[Gorb]

The main problems with this item, at least to my eye (from a design point of view) is that it:


Takes up an Attack Modifier (already mentioned)
Provides no bonus statistics (already mentioned)
Adds extra vulnerability while the item is granting you its main benefit (this is important)

Now, whether this is a result of power creep or simply redundant(/bad) design, I wouldn't even begin to comment.

However, as has already been mentioned, it is relatively cheap and provides relevant bonuses to certain hero types (farmers, gankers with insane early/mid game burst damage compared to target defenses). The Attack Modifier we can't feasibly remove. As said above, that would make combining it with existing Attack Modifiers stupidly beneficial. Overly so.

Granting it random stat bonuses wouldn't make sense with the design ethos that S2 appear to be heading in with the buildup changes to items like Astrolabe, the inclusion of Grave Locket, etc. Unless, of course, this item it remade (recipe reduced, requires another item). This is the simplest way of perhaps widening the accessibility of the item. That said, the fact that it grants no stats while also making you squishier while you're meant to be using it renders it a double-penalty if you're using it for anything other than farming and/or are Chronos with Trolofield.

So the last option we are left with is combining it with a superior/lategame item in terms of altering that item's recipe, which is far more complex than simply attempting to remake EP itself. However, it could possibly result in a better result than the former suggestion.

However, we're getting onto Mechanics and/or Suggestions with this, so I'll leave my 2 cents here.

[Gaminos]

it has such a bad stereotype this item, but it can be insanely strong in certain situations and in the right hands.

I think there is no reason to change something that isnt broken, just because the majority of players cant use it correctly.

Or maybe we should buff Town Portal Scroll aswell because alot of players seem to not buy those either...

[JoOKie]

EP is an item you pick when you're behind. You get a lot for a little, but only if you can control or mitigate risk to an acceptable extent.
That's the entire purpose of the item, and I think that's important to keep in the game.

Why pick EP when behind when you can pick up other items that cost much less and keep you in fights longer?

[Anakha]

Why pick EP when behind when you can pick up other items that cost much less and keep you in fights longer?

Like what?

This'll be good.

[JoOKie]

Bracers. etc

Never seen anyone go for EP when they're behind. Link me a game where this has occurred.

If a team has an advantage over you, I don't know why you'd buy an item with an active that kills you faster.

[Mediocre]

Not at all. Lifesteal has always been the trash orb, since it's a lategame orb. There is no real lategame anymore, so it's not worth picking up.

Exception would be helm of the dominator which we saw alot on certain heroes in the past (:pupp::mali::arac::mage:...), as an early pick-up.

However, right now there is no reason to get it over shieldbreaker. Ever.

[Hubaris]

Actually Macrohard does a good explanation as to the benefits of EP and why it can be picked up (for its cost)

Huge Spoiler below soz.


The chronos' stun and rewind makes it pretty complicated. However, without a stun or built in block, it becomes straightforward...

When does extra damage from activating EP exceed the 15% extra damage taken, assuming only auto-attacks, no stuns, and no evasion?

D1 = your damage
S1 = your attack speed (unactivated)
A1 = your armor
B1 = your base attack time
D2 = enemy damage
S2 = enemy attack speed
A2 = enemy armor
B2 = enemy base attack time
F1 = your damage factor = 1/(1+.06*A2)
F2 = enemy damage factor = 1/(1+.06*A1)

Extra Damage Output:

damage with +100 attack speed - damage without +100 attack speed
D1*F1*(2+S1/100)/B1 - D1*F1*(1+S1/100)/B1

Extra Damage Received:

(amplified damage - lifesteal with +100 speed) - (regular damage - lifesteal without +100 speed)
[1.15*D2*F2*(1+S2)/B2 - 0.17*D1*F1*(2+S1)/B1] - [D2*F2*(1+S2)/B2 - 0.17*D1*F1*(1+A1)/B1]

Extra Damage Output > Extra Damage Received:

D1*F1*(2+S1/100)/B1 - D1*F1*(1+S1/100)/B1 > [1.15*D2*F2*(1+S2/100)/B2 - 0.17*D1*F1*(2+S1/100)/B1] - [D2*F2*(1+S2/100)/B2 - 0.17*D1*F1*(1+S1/100)/B1]

1.17*D1*F1*(2+S1/100)/B1 - 1.17*D1*F1*(1+S1/100)/B1 > 0.15*D2*F2*(1+S2/100)/B2

D1*F1/B1 > 0.1282*D2*F2/B2*(1+S2/100)

When this is true, activating Parasite will do more good than harm. This can also be applied to multiple targets of multiple damage types...


D1*F1/B1 > 0.1282*D2*F2/B2*(1+S2/100) (values for enemy 1) + 0.1282*D3*F3/B3*(1+S3/100) (values for enemy 2) + 0.1282*D4*F4/B4*(1+S4/100) (values for enemy 3) + ...

Against a single target, or even multiple targets, this will almost always be true (as long as you do not get stunned) such that you can continue your attack uninterrupted. Because of this Shrunken Head should probably be strongly considered while using EP.

Example:

Equal base attack times of 1.7 -> B1 = B2 = B3
Your damage is 180 -> D1 = 180
Enemy damage is 210 and 150 -> D2 = 210, D3 = 150
Your armor is 20 -> F2 = F3 = .455
Enemy armor is 15 and 22 -> F1 = .526 (based off the target you are attacking)
Enemy attack speed is 100 and 85 -> S2 = 100, S3 = 85

180*.562 > .1282*210*.455*(1+100/100) + .1282*150*.455*(1+85/100)
101.16 > 24.50 + 16.19
101.16 > 40.69 ?
True.
Elder adds more damage than damage received, even against two enemies. And as you can see, there is still much room to spare.

Note that your own attack speed drops out of the equation. So elder parasite, when it comes to adding damage compared to damage received, is equally effective whether you have +30 speed or +300 speed. oO


It has a place in the game. It adds raw DPS and move speed. In a 1 on 1 fight with a Shrunken, it outputs a seriously high amount of damage. Yes the modifier sucks a wee bit, but you get what you pay for.

[Hubaris]

Lol you're such a dick. EP is still a bad item and no one decent will ever pick it when they're behind. Theory craft all you want, but it's not picked for a reason.

Learn to discuss (read: not argue and be bitter) like an adult. So much ego in your head.

Theory crafting is the reason most things are found to either be too stronk or too weak. Looking at old helm as an example. You can see it as +6 Regen, +300 HP and 70% chance to block 40. You could say, Heart gives you more!

But looking at the numbers, the HP gained back throughout the fight, the blocking and the raw HP points, you can see it actually overshadows Heart in terms of HP/Gold.

Back to EP. I linked a nice piece of non anecdotal evidence which shows the items actual DPS and what it can do. The item is far from bad. Much like Charged Hammer it actually outputs a lot of damage for what you pay. EP Just doesn't grant you any health or anything to keep you alive, and dare I say, thats what balances it. You need to combine it with another item to maximize its usefulness.

100 Attack speed (a bit less than 2 Warpclefts 4200 gold) for 1900. I'd say its not atrocious in the right context. The item has a place in the game, as to where though, that needs to be found out.

[TRYTROUSERS]

didn't they make it so that the +dmg is dealt in a big chunk after the duration of the usage in dota? why not make it like a gamble, where if you kill during the duration you are penalized and if you don't you are? that won't fix the fact that life steal is a bad orb most of the time, but it will at least allow the item to be picked up for burst DPS.

[Bloodrush]

The biggest problem I have with the item is that it offers no +damage.

Many of the heroes it is a decent pickup on early NEED more damage, take :pred: for example.

Besides the obvious "makes you more squishy" thing, I don't think it's that bad of an item, even 15% isn't nearly as high as most of you make it out to be. It's just very situational.

I think something like +10 or +15 damage on the item would help it a lot, and in turn maybe raise the +damage on Whispering Helm by +5.

*shrug*

Haven't bought it in a looooong time, but don't want it to become the new 'every hero every game' item.

[Repulsinozor]

Personally the only time that I ever really pick this up is on ramp, and then it's more for the +20 move speed. There is nothing quite like being ramp with elder+phase boots+stormspirit and being able to maintain a higher average move speed then war beast does (18 of 25 seconds or 72% of the time at max move speed as opposed to war beast's 16/40 or only 40% of the time). Plus since you usually end up getting a shrunken anyways you don't need to worry about being stunned that often.

But then again, 1500 bracket, no offense.
Ill tend to agree with the one that said earlier that there s no need to make this item godlike, it'd be very annoying.
The thing with EP is that he is easily controlled, and i am nearly certain you cannot balance EP for both 1800 and 1500 brackets without removing the essence of the item.
EP s pretty much balanced for 1300-1400 right now but if you boost it so it's balanced at higher mmr lvls it's gonna be OP for the low bracket and this low bracket is the majority of hon players so..

[God`]

I think its actually quite an underrated item on alot of heroes. Just that most ppl dont know how to use it effectively, dont always have it on, use it when it is safe. Its actually quite strong on chtulufant coupled with an insanitarius, like brized builds it. Ive tried it out and u become a ****ing train with these 2 items on the hero. Another hero i sometimes get it on is swiftblade, simply becouse his ultimate scales with attack speed (u can attack between slashes in your ultimate, when u are invulnerable), the more attackspeed the more invulnerable attacks. And when u have ulted u can spin and the +15% damage taken goes off, really underrated tbh.

Another thing to consider is that in dota this item still makes u take 30%+ dmg, thats double than what it is here in HoN.

I'd say leave it as it is, people just needs to start experimenting with the item and see what it can do (like brized).

[Bohrain]

Another thing I'd like to direct attention to is the duration of the Crazed effect.
You rarely have the luxury of spending 12 seconds on autoattacking enemy heroes with no chance of being stunned and killed. The long duration is a good thing only if you are using the active effect to run away, which I don't find really useful since the item is meant to be used offensively.

[Streepe]

it has such a bad stereotype this item, but it can be insanely strong in certain situations and in the right hands.

I think there is no reason to change something that isnt broken, just because the majority of players cant use it correctly.

Or maybe we should buff Town Portal Scroll aswell because alot of players seem to not buy those either...

I kinda agree with this....
but not quite...

Bad players who use it and fail with it will either learn and fear using it, which is bad, or keep using it and keep failing, which is also bad.

The item isn't broken but it encourage bad gameplay.

I'll try to come up with a solution to each point raised:

1. I take extra damage, WTFOMG!!!11!
Even if the damage recieved is balanced many player will fail to see how much painful these extra damage can be. Thing is, the player will only realise that once he's being cced to death... Why not have him pay that life beforehand? EP could take a part of your life (either static or in %) on activation comparable to how much damage he would suffer. Kinda like blood chalice.
So instead of recieve "15% extra damage while activated" it would be "remove HP equivalent to 15% of your max HP on activation". Like I said it could also be static. Something like 200-300HP seems fine to me.

2. Orb effect is the weakest, I can't use better one !!
Not really a problem. If you build it for the orb maybe you didnt choose the right item. If you dont build it for the orb then you can toggle the orb effect you want. If you dont want to pay 900 gold for an orb you dont want and still get the effect you must remove the orb... but then EP has nothing to do with the item in the recipe.
Then we remove the item in the recipe. In that case the recipe has no item in it. That mean we must change the recipe. How? I have an idea but I'll write it in the next point.

3. It take place in inventory it shouldnt...
If you feel like you need more place in your inventory then maybe we could give you more. By combining with another item you use! My idea would be something like this:

elder parasite
ghost marcher + blood chalice + glove of the swift + hungry spirit + recipe

passive bonus
movement speed +70
damage +25
attack speed +15
lifesteal +17%
strength +5
intelligence +5

on activation
apply crazed on self for 12 secs

crazed
movement speed + ??
attack speed + 85
take 15% extra damage

notes:
-Point 1 is still doable with this new recipe. Just Change extra dam for HP sac.
-remove hungry spirit from the recipe if you agree with point 2
-numbers can be changed. Just my idea of it.
-recipe can be changed. just my idea of it.

[FistingTim3]

I would like to see this item have its recipe cost cut down to 500 g and its atk speed halved to +50. This would really make the item the dominant high risk early ganking item i think its meant to be. Even on casters, the benefits can make it worth it for early ganking, if they can get it earlier.

[hmontana]

The BIGGEST PROBLEM with this item is that its an orb. Nothing else. Its the worst orb in the game. Make the lifesteal non exclusive and decrease it to 10%. This item will be balanced and see alot of play

[Anakha]

I think its actually quite an underrated item on alot of heroes. Just that most ppl dont know how to use it effectively, dont always have it on, use it when it is safe. Its actually quite strong on chtulufant coupled with an insanitarius, like brized builds it. Ive tried it out and u become a ****ing train with these 2 items on the hero. Another hero i sometimes get it on is swiftblade, simply becouse his ultimate scales with attack speed (u can attack between slashes in your ultimate, when u are invulnerable), the more attackspeed the more invulnerable attacks. And when u have ulted u can spin and the +15% damage taken goes off, really underrated tbh.

Another thing to consider is that in dota this item still makes u take 30%+ dmg, thats double than what it is here in HoN.

I'd say leave it as it is, people just needs to start experimenting with the item and see what it can do (like brized).

this

[FuzioN]

there are 2 simple ways to make this item better.

First lets look at other orb effects that are cheap in money to the same as elder parasite we got :icebrand: wich is alot better if we look at the cost of it in part of pros and cons.

Same goes for :WhisperingHelm:

What to do then?

Suggestion 1: Make it upgradable like shieldbreaker 3 ranks last rank every rank reduces damage taken, and gives it 4 to all stats.

each upgrade for elder parasite should cost like recipe.


Or suggestion 2: increase its cost :HungrySpirit::Broadsword::MightyBlade: and a recipe for 500 gold.
buffing the lifesteal a little maybe, then nerfing the attackspeed to half and adding additional effect, deals % damage of iether % health or missing health i guess maybe?

also giving it 250 health and 8 to all stats. recipie could be more costy depending on the stats of this orb, this would make us not see SB on every godamn hardcarry in a game more or less.

[Necroth]

The problem with Elder Parasite is that it can be both a blessing and a curse.

Give us the ability to deactivate it (just like insanitarius with a small cooldown) and I promise you, it will be picked up A LOT more.

[GregerMoek]

But will it be balanced? I can promise you that Succubus would be picked up a lot more if her ultimate was global, or that Sacrificial Stone would be picked up a lot more if it provided invulnerability on use for one second per charge. Doesn't mean it would be balanced.

[IceHism]

My favorite suggestion would be bump up the extra damage taken and make it toggleable. That way, the people who know how to use it, can get the most out of it. while the people that are bad will only continue to fail. That's a pretty balanced item imo.

[Necroth]

But will it be balanced? I can promise you that Succubus would be picked up a lot more if her ultimate was global, or that Sacrificial Stone would be picked up a lot more if it provided invulnerability on use for one second per charge. Doesn't mean it would be balanced.

Even though your extreme examples are a bit silly, I get your point and you are correct. Obviously the numbers need to be tweaked a tad. No question there.

Perhaps give us the ability to switch EP off once its activated (so it goes into the 25 second cooldown).



I just want to be able to switch this thing off whenever I want.

[korDen]

I'd want to see the effect of EP reduced to 5 seconds (the duration of SH when it's used up), on a shorter CD too. Either that or being able to deactivate it at will.

There is simply no way you can auto-attack someone for 12 seconds...

Also an upgrade akin to Assassin's Shroud would be nice. Something like a more offensive version of Symbol of Rage, with +60 damage on it or so.

[pechkin]

item is fine, it's just people who think that just because it's cheap, you need to buy it as first item.
Yes you can buy it early, but then you need to use it as a farm assisting tool like alchemist bones untill you can afford to engage the battle.
but if you want to make this item viable, since you already buffed AS and dmg taken bonus, you can try removing mana cost from it to make it endless forest farming tool

[Pineapple]

lets be honest.. EP is not even a pick-up for chronos anymore.. definitely needs some tweaking.. it used to be bought for the AS/MS bonus so maybe you could remove the lifesteal and buff the AS.. then items such as SB/frostburn/whispering and other attack-modifying items wouldnt be picked up instead of EP but maybe picked up with EP!

[pechkin]

lets be honest.. EP is not even a pick-up for chronos anymore.. definitely needs some tweaking.. it used to be bought for the AS/MS bonus so maybe you could remove the lifesteal and buff the AS.. then items such as SB/frostburn/whispering and other attack-modifying items wouldnt be picked up instead of EP but maybe picked up with EP!

lets be honest. EP has been only buffed. So if it was a pick-up for someone it could not become not a pick-up after BUFFS. It costs only 2k gold for 100!!!!!!!!!!!!!! attack speed, 20% movespeed and only 15% dmg increase. If there was no propaganda of how bad EP is mabe it would be picked up more often.

[Anakha]

It's been nothing but buffed....and clearly nothing else has changed in the game at all...

[Chime]

Just make the lifesteal of this item stack with orb effects, but not other kinds of lifesteal orbs. Would make a Maliken Shieldbreaker EP viable for at least me again.

[GregerMoek]

Just make the lifesteal of this item stack with orb effects, but not other kinds of lifesteal orbs. Would make a Maliken Shieldbreaker EP viable for at least me again.

Thing is, do we want to buff something that will have huge impact on previous double modify users?

[Tensler]

The life steal component of this item is what holds it back from being made useful. As long as there is lifesteal on the item it will cause the item to be broken because it will NEED to be an attack modifer, but looking closer at the item the lifesteal of the item is the least important peice of this item even if it is in the recipe. Essientally this item needs a remake for it to be useful in team fight situations that would most likely involve getting rid of the life steal component and replacing it with a steam staff or pair of swift gloves.

Another take on the item is that its effect lasts too long. It would be a massive buff to the item if the effect lasted say 6 or 7 seconds. This would make it a good pick up alongside a shrunken early on but later in the game still having that drawback that helps define the item.

[Pellikan]

Theory crafting is the reason most things are found to either be too stronk or too weak. Looking at old helm as an example. You can see it as +6 Regen, +300 HP and 70% chance to block 40. You could say, Heart gives you more!

But looking at the numbers, the HP gained back throughout the fight, the blocking and the raw HP points, you can see it actually overshadows Heart in terms of HP/Gold.

Back to EP. I linked a nice piece of non anecdotal evidence which shows the items actual DPS and what it can do. The item is far from bad. Much like Charged Hammer it actually outputs a lot of damage for what you pay. EP Just doesn't grant you any health or anything to keep you alive, and dare I say, thats what balances it. You need to combine it with another item to maximize its usefulness.

100 Attack speed (a bit less than 2 Warpclefts 4200 gold) for 1900. I'd say its not atrocious in the right context. The item has a place in the game, as to where though, that needs to be found out.

You have to remember that att-speed is less important than damage. There is rarely a time where you can sit and use all your att-speed you get(also hotbl/shield counters att-speed).

Just pure math doesnt work often in a game like hon.

[pechkin]

You have to remember that att-speed is less important than damage. There is rarely a time where you can sit and use all your att-speed you get(also hotbl/shield counters att-speed).

Just pure math doesnt work often in a game like hon.

you can not get elder parasite by the time that block thing is somewhat worthy compared to other's dmg, your speech about how it counters attack speed is so touching yet it's just a false. Not to mention that you should stop living in the past, because hotb is not the same anymore, attack speed actually COUNTERS it. Attack speed is not less important than damage.

The life steal component of this item is what holds it back from being made useful. As long as there is lifesteal on the item it will cause the item to be broken because it will NEED to be an attack modifer, but looking closer at the item the lifesteal of the item is the least important peice of this item even if it is in the recipe. Essientally this item needs a remake for it to be useful in team fight situations that would most likely involve getting rid of the life steal component and replacing it with a steam staff or pair of swift gloves.

Another take on the item is that its effect lasts too long. It would be a massive buff to the item if the effect lasted say 6 or 7 seconds. This would make it a good pick up alongside a shrunken early on but later in the game still having that drawback that helps define the item.
life steal component is not broken, even without lifesteal you get enough benefits from Ep for it's cost, and it only gets better the more dmg you got because of that lifesteal. You want another modifier - fine, buy it and switch to that modifier, what's the problem?

It's not effect that lasts too long, it's just that you need to learn how to use it to your advantage, if you are not fighting heroes the longer it lasts the better, if you are using it to boost ms the longer it lasts the better, if you got shrunken head to prevent massive magical dmg the longer it lasts the better.
If you go no defensive items and want to use it in fight for 6-7 sec, use it BEFORE you engage, equate that moment, use some ****ing skill. You want every item to be a no brainer, EP is not that king of item.

[Doomhammar]

S2 could always do the :bloo: on it. Seperate positive and negative buffs, so that extra damage taken and speed buffs are seperated. Negative one could be purged with :NullfireBlade: and possibly even :ShrunkenHead:, giving the item viability by synergy. Nullfire and EP both increase AS -> Massive procs.

Lifesteal component is also something kind of unfitting. Maybe giving it an other attack modifier, something that fits the name "Elder Parasite", such as reduced damage done by enemy.

People implying "AS of 2 Warpclefts in 1900g" don't just understand the whole picture, because the game revolves around tanky melees and escape artist rangeds. And most of the time ones that could actually benefit from that AS are melees :chro::hamm: for example. EP just does not fit the game at the moment. Either changes to the whole game should be made or Elder Parasite. And i hope for the latter.

[Apostate]

Elder Parasite is just inherently a risky item that a smart team will use against you if you let them.

I'm happy that it is in the game even if it isn't used competitively. Making the tradeoff better to make it seen more might make it a better item, but what is the point? Do we need more variety in the attack modifiers that are used competitively?

My fix for it if it had to be tweaked would be this(warning: baseless suggestion of an amateur)
Remove all passive effects from the item. Item becomes toggleable and grants 17% lifesteal, 100 attack speed, 20% movespeed, and +15% damage when toggled on. Once toggled off, may not be toggled on again for 15 seconds.

[God`]

Item is fine as it is, just gotta have some balls and some brains to use it. Competitive players have the brains but not the balls, and pubs might have the balls but they dont have the brains. Then some innovators like Brized and Loda have both and then it can really be powerful.

[PowerBro]

Just make the lifesteal of this item stack with orb effects, but not other kinds of lifesteal orbs. Would make a Maliken Shieldbreaker EP viable for at least me again.

Yeah... would be fine for Maliken for all I care... but I have no interest in fighting a Valk with EP/SB, a Silhouette, a Flint even would be ****in devastating with those double orb.

[Necroth]

Remove all passive effects from the item. Item becomes toggleable and grants 17% lifesteal, 100 attack speed, 20% movespeed, and +15% damage when toggled on. Once toggled off, may not be toggled on again for 15 seconds.

Approved.

[smurfberrys]

Elder Parasite is just inherently a risky item that a smart team will use against you if you let them.

I'm happy that it is in the game even if it isn't used competitively. Making the tradeoff better to make it seen more might make it a better item, but what is the point? Do we need more variety in the attack modifiers that are used competitively?

My fix for it if it had to be tweaked would be this(warning: baseless suggestion of an amateur)
Remove all passive effects from the item. Item becomes toggleable and grants 17% lifesteal, 100 attack speed, 20% movespeed, and +15% damage when toggled on. Once toggled off, may not be toggled on again for 15 seconds.

That's going a bit far. If they made it so you could turn it off but it still lasted for the same duration (as long as you don't turn it off) with the same cooldown it would allow you to use it in between heroes nuke cycles.

[Shocker420]

I think this item is best being weaker than stronger kinda like brutaliser. They have the potential to be really OP and annoying. Before playing hon I was into the dota map on Starcraft 2 and the item that stunned was a core item on every carry ( there's less options though) I was really surprised and glad that it wasn't a popular pickup in hon.

[SilhouetteX]

Yo what if we just made it so you could disassemble Elder Parasite? That would make it a much more viable an item pick up because it could just be built into Satanic late game. I know its weird, disassembling EP because it uses a recipe but the recipe could be sold back for 500.

[I`Laughed]

I see it this way:

Most carrys, if not all carrys picks up an attack modifier during the game. Shieldbreaker/Whispering helm/Frostbrand are also alot better, because you can keep building them. Shieldbreaker to rank3, Frostbrand to Frostwolf or Frostburn, Whispering helm to Symbol of rage.

To use your attack modifier slot for 1900 gold is just plain stupid. The item could actualy be good late game, if combined with shrunken and lots of dmg, maybe Elder parasite should be considered in a more expensive build up, since 100% attackspeed does not matter on a carry as long as you have +70 auto attack dmg.

[echelon]

LOL This item is top notch already.
The idea that it needs a buff is pretty ignorant.
Shrunken + Elder with any auto attack hero is amazing.

You don't need to activate it if you think you're going to get targetted. Bait someone and use it when you have the advantage. It only costs $1900 for AMAZING potential when you position well.

[Ogrim]

I never buy the thing so what would i know...


But Seems to me like this item should be on a toggle rather than an activation. Basically you should be able to turn it off, while it still retains the cooldown.

The item is perfectly fine, its just dangerous as hell and thus not picked up often.

The other option is to buff it with stats and make it cost more.


Edit: basically what apost said

[Fen__]

I dont get it why most of people cry that EP sux because he got an attack modifier...

Who cares if it got lifesteal, if you want it use it, if not just switch to something else. Getting lifesteal on EP doesnt obligate to use it, its just a free bonus that can become usefull for some heroes.

I got no problems in getting frostburn (because of great stats and must have movement speed buff for most of mele) after finishing sb. 1 attack modifier doesnt counter the other one, it just gives you the ability to choose which one you prefer

[AuverAskerud]

I really don't understand why we can't have situational items, just like we can have situational heroes. It's things like these that makes the game fun, trying out unorthodox item builds and I think EP is a really fun item to experiment with (Pebbles anyone?).

[BooBoo_Bear]

I have often wondered if Elder Parasite would have a better place if it was reworked to no longer give static life steal. Once activated it would give a "buffed" crazed effect (this of course would need a balance discussion). The new buffed crazed effect could in fact have a life steal property but if it did it would need no longer be considered an orb effect (similar to that of symbol)

[Ogrim]

I dont get it why most of people cry that EP sux because he got an attack modifier...

Who cares if it got lifesteal, if you want it use it, if not just switch to something else. Getting lifesteal on EP doesnt obligate to use it, its just a free bonus that can become usefull for some heroes.

I got no problems in getting frostburn (because of great stats and must have movement speed buff for most of mele) after finishing sb. 1 attack modifier doesnt counter the other one, it just gives you the ability to choose which one you prefer

... Seriously?

Just no.

[da_fume]

... Seriously?

Just no.

What don't you get...melee's get kited, movespeed is great, the slow helps too. Frostburn + EP is 522 ms in most cases. And yes, you can toggle the orb effects, it's not that hard if you bind it to an easy to access key (mine is 'c'). EP + SB is lolpubstomp combo, since the SB debuff only needs to be re-applied every 5 seconds.

[Anakha]

I actually cant think of a worse way to spend 4400g than on a Frostburn just for its stats. At least pretend you're going to build Geometer's or something.

[`TimTebow]

:mart:I really don't think this item is too hard to fix at all...

This is my really simple proposal, it really doesn't need a massive buff in my opinion, the item is 1900 gold currently, It doesn't need to be godly like some of you are trying to make it. Its a cheap item lets not make it the next genjuro please.

Add 100 dollar to the recipe cost now the item costs 2,000
Change the life steal to a personal aura so that it does not count as an orb effect(similar to abyssal skull) but do not let it stack with abyssal skulls life steal aura.

There now you have a useful item that only costs 2,000 gold provides 17% lifesteal really good movement speed and attack speed aswell as the negative side of increased dmg taken(ITS A 2000g ITEM THIS IS OKAY FOR ITS BENEFITS); but does not prevent you from getting other orb effects

Only change in this idea ive had was to allow it to provide the lifesteal aura in a tiny radius to teammates (like abyssal skull).

What do you guys think?

:balp:

[da_fume]

I actually cant think of a worse way to spend 4400g than on a Frostburn just for its stats. At least pretend you're going to build Geometer's or something.

Obviously you can turn it into :GeometersBane::FrostwolfsSkull: later, but the item is actually more stat efficient than you are letting on.

:CrushingClaws: = http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png50/str
:DuckBoots: = http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png50/agi
:Punchdagger: = http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png55.5/dmg
:GlovesOfTheSwift: = http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png33.3/as

16str * (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png50/str) + 16agi * (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png50/agi) + 10dmg * (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png55.5/dmg) + 20as * (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png33.3/as) = ~http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png2822

At 357ms +14% is 50ms, the same as :Marchers:, which brings our total to ~http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png3322. So you are paying ~http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items_v2_quick_coin.png1078 for a slowing attack modifier, bonus ms for any ms > 357, slot efficiency, and the option of further upgrading to :GeometersBane::FrostwolfsSkull: in the future; all of this relative to the most efficient stat items you can buy.

[Anakha]

Realistically, every single part you're looking for in said Frostburn (for stats) is able to be taken on other items (geometer's for said +ms and agi, notably) that also don't clash with your orb effect.
Hell, Geometer's even gives you a foolproof way to pre-emptively protect yourself from the EP debuff. Firebrand+blessed orb = near the price of a Frostburn, and you're skipping out on very minimal things in order to not have a rather silly clash. The nature of the orbs means toggling them isnt really feasible anyway.

[Ekamo]

Realistically, every single part you're looking for in said Frostburn (for stats) is able to be taken on other items (geometer's for said +ms and agi, notably) that also don't clash with your orb effect.
Hell, Geometer's even gives you a foolproof way to pre-emptively protect yourself from the EP debuff. Firebrand+blessed orb = near the price of a Frostburn, and you're skipping out on very minimal things in order to not have a rather silly clash. The nature of the orbs means toggling them isnt really feasible anyway.

I think you're forgetting, or intentionally not mentioning a key aspect:

Item Slot Efficiency.
A hero that especially comes to mind here is :zep:, who is just fine with staying on Frostburn, even when tiered out.

[changlingbob]

Obviously you can turn it into :GeometersBane::FrostwolfsSkull: later, but the item is actually more stat efficient than you are letting on.

Only if you only have on slot to play with, and at the time you're building frostburn you have say 3. Most hit point providing items are more cost effective than frostburn for that: icebrand is obviously twice as effective, helm is up there at icebrand cost, even beastheart by itself, sacstone, almost anything. For damage, anything that says 'damage' in its description is better; shrunken is more cost effective for strength, spellshards 1 is better even for non-int heroes for damage and 3 is still better for int, geobane is slightly better for agi before taking the illusions into account. For attack speed its actually competitive, except against things with real amounts of agi (dancing blade, wingbow etc) or base attack speed items (warpcleft).

If you have item slots, building a dedicated item for what you want from the list of stats on frostburn is better in almost every situation. Frostburn's advantage is that it splits into two of the best lategame items on ranged heroes. Its in no way one of the most cost effective items, except, perhaps, in the range of stats it provides.

As a thought experiment, consider the following:
http://i.imgur.com/sUF4C.jpg
More stats, less cost. Plus I have boots and a lot of incidental benefits (nb: insanitarius is on, but we have enough regen and are baller enough that we don't give crap). E: this build is not meant to be plausible on any hero, just to be better at everything that frostburn does.

[Zafinar]

The problem with elder parasite is that it has no late game utility, the item becomes harmful to your hero by the end of the game. If you want to fix it I suggest changing the % damage modifier which scales with a moderate armor debuff.

[Fen__]

Tbh frostburn is a good item but not because of stats. Like ankha stated geo bane is a lot better item in most of cases. Only frostburn advantage is that higher movement speed, although the couple of % can look very minimal its still crucial for many mele heroes + we got the blocking aspect. So no, i wouldnt buy frostburn just for stats over geo bane, yes i would take it on some mele because of higher movement speed buff and lack of block aspect that can come from the ilussions.

I still dont get it why people cant understand that buffing parasite would completly unbalance the item. For the price of 2k this item is more than fine, only EP drawback is the item slot problem. You cant rly make anything out of it and 2k item for a mid to late game carry is just not affordable in terms of losing item slot. Make it a part of bigger item and it would solve problem - if there is any.

[WarKirby]

I don't get the problem with it. it gives a ton of extra damage output, +100 as is essentially doubling your damage.The lifesteal component, enhanced by the attack speed, helps to offset the downside of it

imo, it's an item to be used when the risk of taking damage is relatively low anyway. Like chronos using his ult. most carries tend to be squishy in exchange for damage, and getting stunned is usually a death sentance anyway. making it moreso isn't that much of a downside compared to enhancing your killing power, possibly enough to kill threats before they can retaliate or escape.

[Yunis]

One of the main problems with this items is that the period where it shines is very short and after that it is counterproductive. If atleast it could be upgraded into symbol...

[MiniDon]

Atackspeed is useless versus damage in this game because often times you are not hitting every hit... which is why it was so popular on chronos... It is only good on heroes that A. Always hit you like verytime they atack or B. Stun u... the only heroes that do that atm..... Chronos... and then thats it.. Just chronos.

[aeowulf]

Bring it down a notch or up one like +/-500 gold and balance it accordingly. The problem is it doesn't compare with similar price tier items and it never will because of the unique drawback.

Imagine if it were 1500g (which does put it in with some clutch component items, but the only fully built items I can think of that it competes with in that range are the equally situational Void Talisman/Energizer) and 60as/+8% amp with 12% ls, it suddenly becomes interesting imo. Its easier to build than a midas, but comes with a drawback. It makes jungling earlier more viable, which adds a ton of new opportunities for both teams to capitalize on. The only negative is that making it more affordable might make certain heroes more derpy mcpubstomp than they already are.

[TheAllFather]

Especially true considering that Lifesteal is now an orb, meaning this item precludes you getting a Shieldbreaker and thus doesn't even offer as much of a damage premium as it should.

Approved.
?
When wasn't elder parasite an orb....?

The item is seriously fine , one of the best in the game.If you think out of the box you can use it just like most items.

[XFlame]

It wasn't an orb during closed beta. Neither were Symbol of Rage and Whispering Helm.

[Tupimus]

Or rather, orbs just weren't exclusive...

[regin1]

The effect it gives is fairly nice and i dont think the extra damage you take is even that much of a big deal, problem is its pretty bad as a attackmod and you cant turn it into anything.

Maybe the solution would be to cut down the life steal percentage a little and make it no longer an attack mod so it could be picked up along with sheildbreaker ect to make it seem like less of a dead end item.

Or make it so both ep and whispering helm can be built into symbol of rage.

[Doomhammar]

EP is death sentence. In order for you to even concider buying or using it you must check for following things:

1. Can I stay out of disables during it.
2. Can I get increased damage output with it (do we have enough disables)
3. Am I getting another orb effect.

My biggest turnoff point personally is that the item has crappy orb and most of the gold in it goes for the active which makes me glass cannon. In order for elder parasite to work (or more so the active to work) it item must be stripped from the orb and given something else, and damage taken increased to use something like mechanics behind gladiator's ult buff. So that I can use EP, get smashing some heads and flee when I start taking the extra damage over time.

[Antimodus]

no, MoM is a death sentence, EP is a minor inconvenience that people blow out of proportion completely. If you have a shrunken, odds are your life steal will make up for the measly +15% damage taken. If you're failing to autoattack with your shrunken and EP on, you did the timing wrong.

Lategame, one of the more expensive items (Frostburn, Geometer's, Daemonic, Charged) is obviously going to be better use of the slot than EP, but same thing can be said for other items in this price range, Nome's for instance.

[Rosgath]

I'd say give it more build up. Shroud is picked up slightly more often now specifically because it can be built into Genjuro, which is actually a pretty nice damage item.

I'm kinda thinking that you'd actually want either a Slayer or a Sword of the High to ramp it up to a late game item. Bonus damage+ it's current activate would make it a really brutal item, but still high risk.

[eszence]

Or make it so both ep and whispering helm can be built into symbol of rage.

Seems like a reasonable solution as it makes EP more usefull lategame (if upgraded) and it can be concidered more often as the attackmodifier of choice for heroes who would build a symbol lategame anyways.

[Jonguh]

you can get the +100 attackspeed while having shieldbreaker orb activated. 100 attackspeeds ain't so bad for 1900g..

yeah you get hurt faster, but you're not suppose to get hit as flint anyway.

[moshonkel]

The problem is that all proc items in this game wont be bought because of the proc. They will be bought for different reasons.

Charged hammer > never bought
SM > bought for pure dps and interrupt (nobody buys it because he wants it to proc)
Riffshards > bought for pure dps

[GregerMoek]

lol'd, saying noone buys it because he wants it to proc and then at the same time saying it's bought because of interrupt.

[Roefl]

How about the 15% extra damage taken will be applied at the end of the duration in non-lethal damage that way it could even be 20% again.

[jp_zer0]

It's too damaging for the late game. The fact that it's an attack modifier on top of having a negatively scaling effect makes it so incredibly all-in.

Either increase the power or improve the scalability. The risk-reward ratio simply isn't there.

[PrestonLee]

you can get the +100 attackspeed while having shieldbreaker orb activated. 100 attackspeeds ain't so bad for 1900g..

yeah you get hurt faster, but you're not suppose to get hit as flint anyway.I agreed with you until you mentioned Flint, then I couldn't tell if you were trolling or not lol..

really though, I think Elder is fine as is. it serves its purposes if used properly (nice cheap attack speed, extra movement speed, and a lifesteal steal source all in one); the main problem isn't really the item, it's the amount of stupid players using it incorrectly :p

[Bohrain]

I know people are going to disagree with me, but I think the item is too pricy considering the additional scaling risk it brings. If the recipe cost was something as ridiculous as 300g it could be picked for the active effect alone, even if the player already had an attack modifier.

[Pellikan]

In the days of beta where is was 30% extra it was interesting...

But i think the item should just be removed, it brings nothing to the game.

[God`]

If Elder parasite is buffed it will be too strong.

[Rosgath]

There are a number of problems with EP.

First, it's a mid-game item that takes an attack modifier. That means that since it can't be upgraded to something stronger late game hard carries generally speaking don't want it. If it had a good late game upgrade you'd probably see it picked up more, but I'm not really certain how much as most games don't last past 35 minutes anyway.

Second, it has a scaling drawback. This further deters people from picking it up, even though the drawback is far smaller than most people expect.

Third, Any hero who is strong mid-game and can benefit most from this is a strength hero(i.e. Maliken, Pestilence, Hammer, Kraken). Strength heroes will ALWAYS get more benefit out of Insanitarious, so they'd never get EP. You can kind of say that Myrm is an exception to this, but he's a hard support/disabler who'd be better off getting a more supporty item like tablet or Nomes.

I feel like the item itself isn't bad in it's current implementation, but it fills a niche that no hero currently can use it to fill without having better options. This would be really strong on a semi-carry who has % chance or countdown proc and isn't a strength hero.

[Uroefl]

How about the 15% extra damage taken will be applied at the end of the duration in non-lethal damage that way it could even be 20% again.

I still think this would be an improvement, kinda like gladiators ults effect.

[PrestonLee]

First, it's a mid-game item that takes an attack modifier.this is not really accurate, it doesn't "take" an attack modifier slot from you, it "gives" you an attack modifier to use. The way I see it eldwr parasite is taken ALWAYS for the +100 attack speed and +20 movement speed bonus on activation. the lifesteal is just an added bonus, you don't actually have to use it and can resort to another attack mod if you want, just toggle between attack mods.

Not aiming this specifically at you, but you're taking elder parasite for the wrong reasons if you're buying it to afk-farm jungle with Chronos early on (this is unfortunately what most bad players do, rush an elder after regular marchers to go hit the jungle, extremely inefficient over getting steamboots first and lane farming). The reason elder is a decent/good pickup on Chronos is the +100 attack speed he gets to use in combination with his guaranteed bash proc. you do not grab elder on Chronos for a jungling tool, that's retarded, otherwise all sandwraith's and dark lady's etc would be picking it up too (not to give anyone ideas *cough*)

that is just one example of its uses. Some other examples where it has use is you want a cheap but effective attack speed boost to put out big damage pickups that don't give much attack speed (ex. Shieldbreaker+savage+rifts on a ranged carry). Yes, there are more effective pickups to gain attack speed like genjuro, charged hammer, wingbow, or daemonic, but keep in mind in terms of attack speed boost elder actually OUTCLASSES all of those pickups, and for MUCH cheaper, while it also gives you the lifesteal option on top of it (1900 gold). it also allows you to abuse multiple doombringer builds while still giving you a respectable amount of attack speed AND lifesteal to work with :p (say boots+genjuro+2 doombringers+token+elder). You can argue that if it gets that late then just getting Symbol is the best route to take, but again symbol is in the 6k gold range and does nothing for your attack speed; it really is all about cost-efficiency.

lastly, it is a very cost efficient farming tool IN COMBINATION with other farming tools, namely thunderclaw/charged hammer and runed axe; that +100 attack speed early on along with a lifesteal allows you to mow down creepwaves/stacks incredibly fast and again for cheap, and will boost your farming rate and dps pretty fast considering the time window in the game you grab it.

With that said, yes I agree these situations cater mostly toward pub-play as realistically relying on glass-cannon builds isn't a smart way to play carry, but I think elder parasite is fine as a pub item and doesn't need a buff to make it "cool" or more valued to pick up. it does a fine job in giving an extra attackspeed boost for cheap, and a lifesteal is a lifesteal.


tl;dr - elder parasite is a very cost-efficient way of grabbing very cheap attack speed, and although it has its drawbacks and caters more toward the pub pickup glass-cannon niche, I don't think there's anything wrong with having an item fulfill that niche. I feel elder parasite is fine the way it currently is and does not need any changes.

[bully_1337]

I would bring ElderParasite and thunderclaw together into one item:

- remove lifeleech
- you have still the 20% chance of casting chain lighting...
- you can activate that new item ... --> higher attackspeed --> higher potential dmg output
- better buildup for that item... maybe a soulscream ring would fit perfect...

[Antimodus]

I would bring ElderParasite and thunderclaw together into one item:

- remove lifeleech
- you have still the 20% chance of casting chain lighting...
- you can activate that new item ... --> higher attackspeed --> higher potential dmg output

may as well get Charged Hammer

[Corn22]

Early on this item is fine. Just time it right and you can do well to avoid being locked down after you turn it on. Its relatively cheap for a large increase in damage. Its later in the game where AoE damage and sheepsticks and whatnot become lethal that having this item is a death sentence. I wouldn't change the build up or the item itself, but I would make the item a build up to something else. The item it builds up to would basically be Elder Parasite + some stats that make you less squishy. I'm thinking elder parasite + Platemail (whatever the 1400 g armor item is called..) + 500 recipe.

[Malfunktion]

I actually like ep on chronos, it allows you to solo kongor with boots ep and a slayer at like lvl 10, which can turn the early advantage you may have had to an instant win.

[Gorb]

You are also stuck with 900 HP.

[RikiP]

i don't know why more people don't pick up elder parasite on hammerstorm after getting portal key and shrunken. you are a freaking monster. galvanize and the fact that youre spell immune completely negates the extra dmg. you are pathetic if you can't control elder parasite on a hammerstorm.

[Theburned]

The problem is that all proc items in this game wont be bought because of the proc. They will be bought for different reasons.

Charged hammer > never bought
SM > bought for pure dps and interrupt (nobody buys it because he wants it to proc)
Riffshards > bought for pure dps

Riftshards does damage because of the proc (which is scaling along with your dps)
SM is bought for dps and interrupt... because the proc basically adds 35 damage to every hit.
Charged hammer is not bought because AS is not that useful, and the proc is quite bad, the price of the items pretty much only covers extra proc, while a savage mace gets more as + a way better proc, with high proc chance.

SM is often bought over riftshards due to the interrupt and more secure procs, riftshards trumps SM hard when it comes to damage, (well at the point where you actually have the savage mace and later (188 damage if I recall correctly)) Though the true strike + proc makes it quite a bit better than riftshards.
Riftshards got a better build up, is cheaper, and delivers more dps. Still I see SM more often than riftshards, barely seeing riftshards at all because of savage mace... others might disagree, but if you would pick up riftshards over savage mace on every hero over riftshards (when there are no special circumstances) you are agreeing with me that savage mace is picked up because of the proc.

and well you also managed to state that people buy SM for interrupt, which they get when it ....... (yeah, you guessed it) PROCS!!!!!!!!

[GeneralNoob9]

why buff it ??? situational item man..
chronos + sotm + ur team carry elder parasite ?? ;DDD

[Theburned]

Early on this item is fine. Just time it right and you can do well to avoid being locked down after you turn it on. Its relatively cheap for a large increase in damage. Its later in the game where AoE damage and sheepsticks and whatnot become lethal that having this item is a death sentence. I wouldn't change the build up or the item itself, but I would make the item a build up to something else. The item it builds up to would basically be Elder Parasite + some stats that make you less squishy. I'm thinking elder parasite + Platemail (whatever the 1400 g armor item is called..) + 500 recipe.

actually elder parasite + magic vestments + 500g recipe would be quite a nice item,
2800g with a build up with 2 recipes giving more lifesteal and magic armor
2800g 18-19% lifesteal 7 magic armor
3300g 19-21% lifesteal 9 magic armor
3800g 20-23% lifesteal 11-12 magic armor.
obviously nonstackable with shamans/vestments.
would synergize very much with the "LS + decent EHP low HP" - mentality.
being able to take less damage is obviously more important than a lot of HP if you got a decent way to gain life back.
instead of having lots of HP and spending ages to refill it.

Also adding a ringmail in there would be nice. and adding stats and recipe cost accordingly

[Token]

I think the main problem is the fact that it is an orb, with negligible lifesteal, it defeats the purpose of quick glass-cannon style damage output, which is overshadowed by Shieldbreaker heavily nowadays.

My suggestion to balance EP is to remove the lifesteal component, and i've put my own creative spin on it, turning EP into a new type of boot.

Red boots (500g) + Steamstaff (800g) + chainmail (550) = 1850g

60 ms | + 10 dmg | +10 AS | +5 armor

Active ability: Frenzy (exact same as current)

Gains 100% AS and 20% MS, but taking 15% more damage

this way the natural item gives armor to help block some of the extra damage, and the natural damage/AS from the steamstaff helps it be viable without the effect on.

If not used as a boot, it could easily be resigned to use chainmail + Major Totem + Steamstaff = 1890g

+5 armor, +5 to all stats +10 AS +10 MS. Possibly make it upgradeable?

[Killroy]

The main problem with the item is that formerly it filled in a niche. It had ms and as. We now have several more items that give movement speed like shroud, genjuro, frostburn, energizer, ghost marchers and stormspirit. All better items then elder parasite. We also used to have (in dota) very little items with attack speed but that has changed a lot too like steamboots getting ias, more hyperstone recipies, insanitarius, shroud with as, genjuro, charged hammer, frostburn geomancers bane, etc....

When elder parasite came out in dota, it was a must have item because of the movement speed. That was the biggest advantage. It was used to escape and to gank. Centaur comes to mind for example. Ghost marchers gives the same boost and has no drawbacks. It is even better since you get the extra damage.The life steal is ok and the ias is good as it is but in the early game with the 15% damage taken it is simply better to just buy a hyperstone and just have the 50 ias constantly then a situational 100 as with extra damage taken. Especially with a lot of burst damage heroes.

If you would want to change the item I think we should remove the speed boost and give it something else in return. Don't know what to be honest but it needs to fill in a niche again.

[man_guy]

Extra damage penalty aside, as with all IAS items in Hon, you run the risk of going into a situation where you're throwing away 40 or more AS because you are on a boundary that doesn't give you any extra dps. +100 AS puts most heroes into 230+ AS or more just from levels, base AS, and typical items. Maybe someone can nerd it up for Chronos (since he's the only hero to use Elder in any competitive scenario) and show typical situations where he's 300 GPM and throwing away huge amounts of AS?

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/wiki/index.php/Attack_Speed

[Farosarg]

i don't know why more people don't pick up elder parasite on hammerstorm after getting portal key and shrunken. you are a freaking monster. galvanize and the fact that youre spell immune completely negates the extra dmg. you are pathetic if you can't control elder parasite on a hammerstorm.

Considering that it's that late into the game and you are probably farming quite fast, you might just as well start pitching in for Daemonic which is a ton more effective use of the item-slot.

[Squareroot3]

1900g for 100 AS + 20% MS + 17% lifesteal + 15% damage taken. You pay for what you get. And as man_guy stated the issue is with AS in itself. AS has diminishing returns as someone else stated. Also, there's the fact that there is a golden ratio/curve between AS and Damage for max effective dps.

Do I think EP needs buffs? Maybe, leaning towards no.
What I do think is that everyone needs to ask themself this: Would I build EP if I truly thought it would work fine on a hero, even though I'd get shot down by my pro 1800 buddies? EP has a "bad reputation." It's how the HoN community feels.

(Off topicish) Think about magebane. Long ago when the standard build was rushing runed cleaver. Then Lethe(was it lethe?) posted his theorycraft about how double stats + hotbl + frostburn would be a much better route than runed cleaver. What happened afterwards? Well, we see hotbl first on magebane most games now. And I can guarantee anyone being the first to experiment with hotbl would get the "rofl, this noob magebane" because it's unorthodox and not yet accepted by the community. Was hotbl on magebane a bad build previously? No. Did hotbl get buffed in some way that made it even more god tier? No. It was just that no one was willing to give it the chance.

Would you build hotbl on every hero? Sure, why the **** not. Give it a go. Have you tried EP on every hero and experimented every possible outcome? Probably not. EP is niche as others have stated. Seeing as AS is the biggest factor(subjective, I know) in it's pickup, the hero that would ever use it would have to have a skill that benefits from hitting more often and/or high base damage. Which is why we see EP on Chronos from time to time. It's not supposed to be viable/good on every hero. That shouldn't be the case for any item.

[Theburned]

I think the main problem is the fact that it is an orb, with negligible lifesteal, it defeats the purpose of quick glass-cannon style damage output, which is overshadowed by Shieldbreaker heavily nowadays.

My suggestion to balance EP is to remove the lifesteal component, and i've put my own creative spin on it, turning EP into a new type of boot.

Red boots (500g) + Steamstaff (800g) + chainmail (550) = 1850g

60 ms | + 10 dmg | +10 AS | +5 armor

Active ability: Frenzy (exact same as current)

Gains 100% AS and 20% MS, but taking 15% more damage

this way the natural item gives armor to help block some of the extra damage, and the natural damage/AS from the steamstaff helps it be viable without the effect on.

If not used as a boot, it could easily be resigned to use chainmail + Major Totem + Steamstaff = 1790g

+5 armor, +5 to all stats +10 AS +10 MS. Possibly make it upgradeable?

funny how you managed to make a 540 gold item into a 440 gold item

[Token]

funny how you managed to make a 540 gold item into a 440 gold item

typo, fixed

[Fen__]

When talking bout EP we need to analyze all the facts concerning this item at the same time.

If you want to analyze just 1 side of EP you will say:

EP is bad because drawback is scaling into late game while raw a.speed doesnt.

smb else will comment

If you know what your doing you can activate EP inteligently letting you avoid most of burst dmg which will be bursted before you will use the item.

Although every argument is correct they need to be analyzed together. The prob of EP that i see is the fack that even tho you can activate EP after enemy waste all of his nukes/disables, the fact is that EP while not being active is pretty much 2k item not giving you any bonusses. As all agreed EP is early-mid game item what makes his attack modifier life steal pretty useless couz of the low dps that hero posses at this stage of the game.

Because of the situation explained above i belive that EP should be changed in 1 of 3 following ways:

1. Make the increased dmg affect only a) autoattacks or b) physical dmg
2. Change the build up of EP where instead of expensive rcp, it would require couple of decent stat items just like insanitarius does.
3. Make the recipe of EP rebuyable in the way where every another rcp would decrease the amplified dmg by 5%, cooldown by 3s and increase lifesteal by 2% making it an item:

- 4900 gold for 20% increased movement speed, 100 ias on activation and 21% lifesteal (in my oppinion 20% movement speed in most cases would be comparatively attractive as bonuses offered by other a.speed oriented items).

[Antimodus]

1. Make the increased dmg affect only a) autoattacks or b) physical dmg

Get shrunken head



2. Change the build up of EP where instead of expensive rcp, it would require couple of decent stat items just like insanitarius does.

So +20% MS +100AS active for free with no recipe cost seems legit to you? Balanced cuz carries need to be the best unit type at all stages of the game?

Why do we even want to buff carries again? why make lifesteal a "viable" choice of modifier? you do realize the obvious brokenness of heroes being able to get insane survivability through stacking a bunch of pure DPS items?

Seriously try playing SH+EP hammerstorm with ult and then come back and tell me it's not worth the 1900 gold

[Dominare]

I don't think the item has a problem, I think the vast majority of people that buy it on their 800hp steamboots-on-green agility heroes have a problem. The numbers clearly show back on page 2 of this thread that EP is actually pretty great at increasing both damage output _and survivability_ IF you're able to keep attacking the whole time. If you get CC'ed then you're dead, so you really need to have a shrunken head first.

The problem isn't Elder Parasite, the problem is people that don't know how to use it. We've all had those games where the Chronos picks one up as his first buy and then can't understand why he never survives 0.001 nanoseconds past the end of his ultimate. It is much more rare to see one who only uses his EP to farm with until he's got a shrunken head, and ONLY THEN will he consider using it in teamfights because he can cover the post-bubble vulnerability with his shrunken activation.