Devourer and portal key

So, he's able to use it now.
This is pretty overpowered as he's balanced around an inability to get the item and is supposed to get his kills by hitting his hooks. Getting a portal key removes the necessity to hit any proper hooks and you can just blink in and rot + ulti.

I'm guessing heroes falling off the ledge if you hook them whilst standing on one is to remove portal key abuse, but then you're just removing quite a few of the "best" hooking positions (by mid towers along the river and on the top side of the mid lane behind trees)
Please stop devourer from being able to use portal key and give him the ability to hook people onto ledges back.

[Glorify1]

Well, the falling off the cliffs is actually a bug. Falling off of areas he'd have to BLINK up to, say like a ward spot is intended. They don't actually fall off, they actually just can walk off. Either way, I feel it's pretty balanced, seeing as it was ONLY balanced in that way because people could get stuck without being able to get out. No longer possible.

[Stuey]

/signed

[FiNGERS]

So pudge jumping on 1 hero and rot/ulti is overpowered, but Behemoth jumping on a team of heroes and ulting them, wiping them clean off the face of the earth, ISN'T overpowered? Please sir, refrain from posting pub logic on the forums, a lot of people here are confused enough as it is.

[Karmashock]

So pudge jumping on 1 hero and rot/ulti is overpowered, but Behemoth jumping on a team of heroes and ulting them, wiping them clean off the face of the earth, ISN'T overpowered? Please sir, refrain from posting pub logic on the forums, a lot of people here are confused enough as it is.
This is what I was thinking... The behemoth is devastating with a portal key. I actually fear him with his AOE stuns far more then the Dev with rot/dev. The dev ability only stuns one unit and everyone else can run away from the rot. The area effects of the behemoth with directly turn the course of a battle putting all effected units at significantly lower health AND stunning them long enough for the other team to nuke a few... or whatever. Add to that the ability of Fissure to cut off retreat and you have a VERY VERY powerful unit.


Now, if you're telling me that the behemoth can have portal key but the flipping devourer can't?... I'm confused. Because the behemoth is WAY WAY WAY more dangerous with this ability then anyone else is...

[emKill]

So pudge jumping on 1 hero and rot/ulti is overpowered, but Behemoth jumping on a team of heroes and ulting them, wiping them clean off the face of the earth, ISN'T overpowered? Please sir, refrain from posting pub logic on the forums, a lot of people here are confused enough as it is.
agree with this

[dsada]

It is so overpower as Pudge with Lothars.

[Arkane1]

Not true. Wards/Gem > Lothars.

Blink is instant and entirely unpredictable.

[Millen_]

If it is infact true that pudge was denied blink because bite was too powerful then why was bane not denied blink?

What it comes down to is pudge/VS were denied the blink dagger for their ability to trap players in inescapable positions.

Seeing as this is not an issue in HoN blink is a perfectly legitimate item to use on Devourer.

[Whylde]

the reason pudge was unable to use blink dagger in the first place was the same reason vengeful spirit couldnt. they didnt want you to blink to spots you cant get out of, and hook/swap people there then blink away. that isnt a factor anymore since you can walk off cliffs. /thread

[JamesKeenan]

If it is infact true that pudge was denied blink because bite was too powerful then why was bane not denied blink?

What it comes down to is pudge/VS were denied the blink dagger for their ability to trap players in inescapable positions.

Seeing as this is not an issue in HoN blink is a perfectly legitimate item to use on Devourer.


True true and true. Anyone who has a problem with Devourer/Portal Key please respond thos this post first, and not just random crap about Lothars.

[Kommander44]

the reason pudge was unable to use blink dagger in the first place was the same reason vengeful spirit couldnt. they didnt want you to blink to spots you cant get out of, and hook/swap people there then blink away. that isnt a factor anymore since you can walk off cliffs. /thread
!!!!

[_Archangel_]

I really want Pudge to be able to Blink. You could pull off mean Blink-Hook moves, and Blink + Ulti would be a mean gank setup. It would probably actually push him to viability in competitive DotA.

[muh]

the reason pudge was unable to use blink dagger in the first place was the same reason vengeful spirit couldnt. they didnt want you to blink to spots you cant get out of, and hook/swap people there then blink away. that isnt a factor anymore since you can walk off cliffs. /thread
qft

i think most of the people here miss this point...

[Karmashock]

the reason pudge was unable to use blink dagger in the first place was the same reason vengeful spirit couldnt. they didnt want you to blink to spots you cant get out of, and hook/swap people there then blink away. that isnt a factor anymore since you can walk off cliffs. /thread
Can I say this is an entirely hilarious strategy...:D

It's mean and exploitative but seriously funny.

yes, yes I know that he wasn't allowed to use the dagger because of abuse and not because he'd be overpowered, but he was then balanced around the fact that you can't use dagger on him. Now that you can, I think it's imbalanced as it pretty much removes the necessity to hook anyone and means that you can blink - ulti - rot and then hook if they manage to run away. Heroes like ES and Centaur were balanced with dagger in mind, Pudge was balanced with the whole "can't use dagger" thing in mind.

To the faggots QQing about Behemoth: go make your own thread about him. He's a strong hero but he doesn't have a skill that brings your whole team + a load of creeps to him, don't **** up my thread with your retarded comparisons.

[Ziffy]

"but he doesn't have a skill that brings your whole team + a load of creeps to him"

Neither does devourer? That's Legionare (axe in dota). He's always been able to use blink.

My question, in regards to the OP issue though - are there not ANY spots inside of trees that you can get stuck anymore? I haven't tested this in several map versions, but I know there use to be a couple. Yeah, you can eat your way out if you have one, but if not you're just as stuck until a team mate buys some trees and digs ya out.

[ubidat]

Blink was only banned from pudge and vengefull spirit 'cause the OLD blink dagger never turned "off" when you were hit, so it was an easy get in and out tool, now that if you're hit its useless for a few seconds, I also believe it messed with some of the War3 engine mechanics when someone gets hooked and pudge decides to blink during the hook attempt.
Its not OP in my opinion, and should stay.

-ubi

[Kietharr]

Can I say this is an entirely hilarious strategy...:D

It's mean and exploitative but seriously funny.

It's especially funny because you could do it with KotL anyways, get a blinker and TP to the top of a ward spot and teleport a teammate there. Excellent way of handling feeders.

You could also do it by having an Antimage blink to a ward spot and having venge swap him, then wait for CD on ult and swap the next enemy who comes river. I once had three pubs trapped on ledges at a time because none of them were smart enough to buy a flying courier to bring them a TP scroll.

[tropicaza]

Moving this thread to the Balance discussion subforum.

[MrJag]

As already mentioned, the Blink Dagger was restricted on Pudge because of the potential abuse in trapping people. You do raise a good point in that he was seemingly balanced without a Blink Dagger and by adding that item into the mix you are potentially throwing his hero out of balance. I would counter, however, that the pre-6.60 Pudge that Devourer is modeled after was not viable in competitive games. The current 6.60+ Pudge was given an item based buff through Aghanim's Scepter to bring him up to par with other competitive level heroes.

So I guess the question is: Does the Portal Key (Blink Dagger) provide a bigger buff to the old Pudge than the DotA's current (6.60+) Aghanim's Scepter? My answer is no, but I'll let you make your own decision.

[Nome]

Would you Portal Key in on a group of 5 heroes?
No? It's balanced =P

[Invoker1]

You could also do it by having an Antimage blink to a ward spot and having venge swap him, then wait for CD on ult and swap the next enemy who comes river.

me and my friend go top.
first 10 minutes of the game, he blinks to the cliff on the right, and i toss the enemy hero to him. tower beats on him while its completely impossible for him to escape.
this doesnt work in HoN, to my dismay. I hate this game. : (

[MrJag]

me and my friend go top.
first 10 minutes of the game, he blinks to the cliff on the right, and i toss the enemy hero to him. tower beats on him while its completely impossible for him to escape.
this doesnt work in HoN, to my dismay. I hate this game. : (Reminds me of the old tiny+potm abuse at bottom right when there used to be water.

[Whylde]

"but he doesn't have a skill that brings your whole team + a load of creeps to him"

Neither does devourer? That's Legionare (axe in dota). He's always been able to use blink.

My question, in regards to the OP issue though - are there not ANY spots inside of trees that you can get stuck anymore? I haven't tested this in several map versions, but I know there use to be a couple. Yeah, you can eat your way out if you have one, but if not you're just as stuck until a team mate buys some trees and digs ya out.


magnataur? pretty sure reverse pullarity was a huge initiation for competetive play

[Whylde]

As already mentioned, the Blink Dagger was restricted on Pudge because of the potential abuse in trapping people. You do raise a good point in that he was seemingly balanced without a Blink Dagger and by adding that item into the mix you are potentially throwing his hero out of balance. I would counter, however, that the pre-6.60 Pudge that Devourer is modeled after was not viable in competitive games. The current 6.60+ Pudge was given an item based buff through Aghanim's Scepter to bring him up to par with other competitive level heroes.

So I guess the question is: Does the Portal Key (Blink Dagger) provide a bigger buff to the old Pudge than the DotA's current (6.60+) Aghanim's Scepter? My answer is no, but I'll let you make your own decision.

there is nothing broken about pudge with a blink dagger. the game wasnt balanced around the fact that he couldnt blink. he was just not that good. now he has access to the same ability ever other hero has. how is he better then tempest (enigma) blinking in and ulting a team? pudge can blink in and effect one hero...

[Tr1cKSt3R]

Not true. Wards/Gem > Lothars.

Blink is instant and entirely unpredictable.


I'm PRETTY SURE that guy was joking.
like 94% sure.

[willtsay]

wait i dont think you can trap people with the current hook doesnt it drop a hooked hero off at the cliff because it drops it off in front of devourer XD

otherwise im sure the engine can make it impossible to hook people into trapped areas.either that or itll hook but drop them off xP

[Nome]

wait i dont think you can trap people with the current hook doesnt it drop a hooked hero off at the cliff because it drops it off in front of devourer XD

otherwise im sure the engine can make it impossible to hook people into trapped areas.either that or itll hook but drop them off xP

Doesn't say anything about jumping into trees and hooking =P

[Illyrian]

The fact he can deny himself annoys me more

[Karmashock]

The fact he can deny himself annoys me more
I'd agree to this... if 80 percent of the damage done to him was done by players... and he finishes himself off... the kill should go to whatever/whoever did that 80 percent damage.


if he caused more then 20 percent of the damage to himself then I don't mind it counting as a deny... I think that would be balanced since at less then 80 percent health any hero is at a distinct disadvantage and you wouldn't really want to maintain your health below that point at all times just to deny people.

[Rippsy]

You do realise for a Devourer to deny himself he needs to time his rot between you hitting him for the SMALL damage tick of his rot to take the last hit? This is no easy task when he usually has magic reduction so high that rot barely hurts him.

Portal Key on Devourer is lovely :) I'm going to see if I can do some comedy tree jukes :)

[Harrypotte2]

the reason pudge was unable to use blink dagger in the first place was the same reason vengeful spirit couldnt. they didnt want you to blink to spots you cant get out of, and hook/swap people there then blink away. that isnt a factor anymore since you can walk off cliffs. /thread

QFT

It has nothing to do with balance, but to avoid exploiters in Dota.

[HonStinks]

I was utterly disappointed when my team just slided down from the mountain I had whirlpooled them to.

How does this work with trees? I know it doesn't work on mountains because you can just slide away, but I'd imagine there is no such mechanic for trees?

[Glorify1]

I'd agree to this... if 80 percent of the damage done to him was done by players... and he finishes himself off... the kill should go to whatever/whoever did that 80 percent damage.

Dumb, it's easy to time your last hit if he's rotting to death. Takes skill in dealing with him.

Also, if you're trapped in trees, you can spam click and eventually you'll get out of them.

[IntErlIdEr]

Well, the falling off the cliffs is actually a bug. Falling off of areas he'd have to BLINK up to, say like a ward spot is intended. They don't actually fall off, they actually just can walk off. Either way, I feel it's pretty balanced, seeing as it was ONLY balanced in that way because people could get stuck without being able to get out. No longer possible.

He is right. The only problem with blinker in DotA was people actually getting stuck above cliffs, which can't happen now.

If you believe that Blink+Bite is overpowered, then you've never seen Blink+Earth Shaker or Blink+Axe.

~IntEr

[Jake]

Only thing why dagger was banned in dota for pudge and venge is that you could blink to "stuckable" places and use your hook/swap so enemy was stuck. Hook's main idea ISN'T getting the enemy to you, it is to get it away from his allies. Go see what happens if you blink in middle of 5 enemy heroes and bite one of them...

[Kynth]

Yeah, portal key doesn't screw anything with balance, the only thing it probably does it give pudge some much needed variety. His old builds were all based on the same stuff.

Blink+devour is crap, just get a bane. (which needs to be ported into HoN)

[ScottMAstar]

Please tell me where it says earthshaker and centaur were balanced around blink dagger. I was under the impression that blink dagger is an item that closes distance between the user and other players, which is just a good thing for those heroes. Pretty sure that the heroes around balanced around the items, they just wouldn't be as dangerous or self sufficient without them.

[Invoker1]

turn cliffs back to normal and remove the portal key from pudge.
cliffs like this are going to mess with blinkers and most importantly, spectre.
I used to blink into pits where i couldn't be melee'd and tp away. now i just slide back out, interrupting my tp and getting me killed.

portal key on pudge is useless anyways. the whole point is to pull a person away from his team and isolate him. If you don't suck at hooking, it's not a problem. you should be at the sides in the trees and on cliffs hooking important heroes away from the battle and forcing the team to either run in blindy or leave him to die. leave the blink dagger to ES, tiny, crix, cent, and axe.

[Vadi]

I guess there isn't a problem as you can walk off cliffs as stated and you can get out of even the thickest of forests (tested with pyros tree clearing ability, waiting until trees respawn, and simply walking out but not in).

[WinD_1nside]

yes, yes I know that he wasn't allowed to use the dagger because of abuse and not because he'd be overpowered, but he was then balanced around the fact that you can't use dagger on him. Now that you can, I think it's imbalanced as it pretty much removes the necessity to hook anyone and means that you can blink - ulti - rot and then hook if they manage to run away. Heroes like ES and Centaur were balanced with dagger in mind, Pudge was balanced with the whole "can't use dagger" thing in mind.

To the faggots QQing about Behemoth: go make your own thread about him. He's a strong hero but he doesn't have a skill that brings your whole team + a load of creeps to him, don't **** up my thread with your retarded comparisons.


.... What? Clearly, you fail. Behemoth is not at all balanced around items. No hero is balanced around items. Items are balanced around heroes. Portal key was MADE FOR Behemoth and heroes that needed to get into combat quick. And devourers rot + dismember combo only do 270x3 to a single unit, multiply that total by .75.... its really a weak lvl 5 dagon. Devourer/Pugde's concept was a hero that can take a massive beating, and bring people into combat and hold them for your team to beat up. The only difference is now that he can get into combat and doesnt need them to do it. Oh noes...

Original Poster = FAIL.

[Millen_]

yes, yes I know that he wasn't allowed to use the dagger because of abuse and not because he'd be overpowered, but he was then balanced around the fact that you can't use dagger on him. Now that you can, I think it's imbalanced as it pretty much removes the necessity to hook anyone and means that you can blink - ulti - rot and then hook if they manage to run away. Heroes like ES and Centaur were balanced with dagger in mind, Pudge was balanced with the whole "can't use dagger" thing in mind.

To the faggots QQing about Behemoth: go make your own thread about him. He's a strong hero but he doesn't have a skill that brings your whole team + a load of creeps to him, don't **** up my thread with your retarded comparisons.

You continue to complain that the hero is unfair because he can blink in, diasble one hero for a long time, do lots of damage, then be able to catch back up to them if they somehow survive the disable. But there are at least two other heroes that I can see fit into that category both allowed to use a blink those heroes being Rhasta and Bane.

[ma5]

Hook is still useful to do what it's best for... take a sole enemy away from his team and focus + kill him.

[jsat]

so we are all clear, the reason pudge (and vengeful spirit) could not get blink dagger was to prevent abuse of hooking/swapping people into places inaccessibly without blink like effect, not because it was too good/balance issue. By the logic of this post you should also disable blink on heroes like behe, tidehunter etc which is just stupid, those heroes require great teamwork and skills to pull of there moves and can be countered by equally good teamwork and positioning, making the game interesting and strategic =>good thing

[Hazh]

Using a portal key to blink into people and ult doesnt matter .. problem with him being able to use it is when your chasing people.Blink + hook gives u a retarded amount of range as far as catching someone.

[SuperStanos]

I honestly don't see the OP's situation being a huge issue. It'll be a decent way to make sure nobody runs from you but otherwise it's not a good usage of gold.

[Millen_]

Using a portal key to blink into people and ult doesnt matter .. problem with him being able to use it is when your chasing people.Blink + hook gives u a retarded amount of range as far as catching someone.

Behemoth/ES blink + fissure = redic long range as well....

[willtsay]

Doesn't say anything about jumping into trees and hooking =P

then put detection spots on that too, but then also make sure there is detection that if devourer used runes of blight or something to eat his way through, then it will allow for the hero to get trapped :P