The "New" Helm of the Black Legion: Block Comparison to Old HotBL and Iron Shield

[MacroHard]

Preface

This thread will compare the new HotBL mechanics to the old HotBL, Iron Shield, and Iron Buckler. This thread does not include the health and regen from HotBL, nor the armor from Iron Shield. I shall analyze and compare the damage block and damage block only. Furthermore, this only compares attacks from heros, towers, and "bosses".


What is factored into the calculation?
Total attacks per second from enemy heroes/towers/bosses.
Charge cooldown for new HotBL mechanism (0.400)
20 initial charges (assumes full charges before attacks start)
Block amount (30 for melee, 20 for ranged)
Duration of "battle" (how long you are being continuously attacked)

What is NOT factored in?
Attacks from creeps
Frame rate (all numbers are assuming infinite frames per second, so accuracy is +/- 5%)

The Formula

T = the duration of the battle
D = depletion time = how long it takes to reach 0 charges
B = block amount
A = total attacks per second of all sources combined
C = charge cooldown time (.400)

D = 20 / (5A - 1/C)

Effective Block = DB/T + (1-D/T)*B/(5AC)
(if D>T, then Effective Block = B)


The Results

http://i42.tinypic.com/25jus7t.png

Example:
You are being attacked by two enemies, one that attacks at 1.2 attacks per second, the other at 1.6 attacks per second. The total attacks per second is 2.8. You are attacked for 5 seconds before they retreat/die/etc. Over these 5 seconds you experienced an effective block rate of 10.6 damage blocked per attack.

Note:
The 2.4 attacks per second for 5 seconds is highlighted because I feel this represents a typical 2v1 attack scenario. Notice how the block value is significantly smaller compared to the old HotBL.


Conclusion

The new HotBL is very weak against multiple heroes. Against two heroes with relatively slow attack speeds, Iron Shield will have more effective block within 5 seconds. Against three or more heroes the new HotBL provides even less protection (block-wise) than the simple 250g Iron Buckler.


Attack Rate Table (for reference)

http://i42.tinypic.com/r7kh1d.png

Magebane has an attack time of 1.45
Nomad has an attack time of 1.50
Aluna has an attack time of 1.55
All others have an attack time of 1.70

Use the chart to find attacks/second based on attack speed. Remember that attack speed includes all agility plus item and spell bonuses.

[MacroHard]

I submitted a suggestion to bring HotBL back in line with Iron Shield:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=386851

[Rkey]

"Against three or more heroes the new HotBL provides even less protection (block-wise) than the simple 250g Iron Buckler."

'SUP S2? Get mathed!

[Dexanth]

"Against three or more heroes the new HotBL provides even less protection (block-wise) than the simple 250g Iron Buckler."

'SUP S2? Get mathed!

And it still provides 300 health and massive regen.

The point of the change was to make people building it more vulnerable to ganking. In any situation someone with a hotbl dies in, someone with a buckler is going to die much sooner since the buckler needs to block an extra 15 attacks to make up for the hp differential.

[Ekamo]

Trust me, all this math was done and it is intended.

[Gaminos]

this doesnt even factor in the creeps aswell

now imagine that same 2v1 situation in mid lane with an added 4-5 enemy creeps hitting you

minor totem would add more survivability lol

P.S Thanks Macro now we finally have some proof to use against those "Helm is OP now kids"

[SmurfinBird]

this doesnt even factor in the creeps aswell

now imagine that same 2v1 situation in mid lane with an added 4-5 enemy creeps hitting you

minor totem would add more survivability lol

P.S Thanks Macro now we finally have some proof to use against those "Helm is OP now kids"

Where it says "Average Block per Attack, Melee" and "Average Block per Attack, Ranged" you can "factor in the creeps". They're not some mystical third attack type, it's right there written for you.

[MacroHard]

minor totem would add more survivability lol
P.S Thanks Macro now we finally have some proof to use against those "Helm is OP now kids"

HotBL still adds a boatload of health and regen. It is still a relatively efficient item considering that it auto-combines. However, I disagree that the blocking aspect should be outshined. If anything it should have a line that adds charges if you're attacked and the block doesn't activate (think Nomad's critical passive). This way the effective block rate would never drop below 50% for an effective block of 15 even under the worst scenarios.


Where it says "Average Block per Attack, Melee" and "Average Block per Attack, Ranged" you can "factor in the creeps". They're not some mystical third attack type, it's right there written for you.

None of this factors in creeps. All attacks are assumed to deduct 5 charges. Therefore the tables only apply to heroes, towers, and kongor.

[Gaminos]

Where it says "Average Block per Attack, Melee" and "Average Block per Attack, Ranged" you can "factor in the creeps". They're not some mystical third attack type, it's right there written for you.

please read the entire post before you try to correct people, it specifically states the creeps are NOT included. "it's right there written for you" =)

What is NOT factored in?

Attacks from creeps

[simena]

HotBL still adds a boatload of health and regen. It is still a relatively efficient item considering that it auto-combines. However, I disagree that the blocking aspect should be outshined. If anything it should have a line that adds charges if you're attacked and the block doesn't activate (think Nomad's critical passive). This way the effective block rate would never drop below 50% for an effective block of 15 even under the worst scenarios.



None of this factors in creeps. All attacks are assumed to deduct 5 charges. Therefore the tables only apply to heroes, towers, and kongor.

New hotbl is 100% block

[SmurfinBird]

please read the entire post before you try to correct people, it specifically states the creeps are NOT included. "it's right there written for you" =)

Alright


"divide by 5".

[changlingbob]

Per your attack speed table, your 2.4 attacks per second equate to ~105 attack speed on each of two heroes. At what point in the game is that typical on two heroes?

E: Like, steamboots is 35, hellflower is 30, demonic is 55; nullfire is 26, wingbow is 60 on the agi side. Getting that amount of attack speed requires some doing.

[MacroHard]

Per your attack speed table, your 2.4 attacks per second equate to ~105 attack speed on each of two heroes. At what point in the game is that typical on two heroes?

E: Like, steamboots is 35, hellflower is 30, demonic is 55; nullfire is 26, wingbow is 60 on the agi side. Getting that amount of attack speed requires some doing.

75 agility, strength steamboots = 105

[changlingbob]

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming you mean agi steamboots (25 haste, 10 agi), and you're assuming a pair of soulscream rings because you're talking about maxing agility, we're talking about a gank squad consisting of a level 11 arachna and a level 12 dark lady. I'm also assuming that base agility on a hero does count towards attack speed, as I can never remember which stats go into the base derived stats and which don't.

Assuming a slightly more conservative gank squad of, say, andromeda and bubbles at level 6, each with boots and power supply (this andro is particularly fed, but has striders because I'm sensible, and bubbles has a bottle and is trying to get this gank for his PK); andro has 43 agi, bubbles has 32 agi and 35 haste from steamboots.

This gives a grand total of 1.8 attacks per second, giving 18.6 and 12.4. Perhaps my assumptions here are wrong; primarily when helm should be relevant to the game, but also notably that with more farm, the original gank squad requires less agility from levels and so don't necessarily have to be level 11 hard- and super-hard carries.

[Pepperz]

Since we can see that the new HotBL is worse than it was before, what are some viable alternative build ups in the same price range?

I've been toying with an Iron shield -> Helm of the Victim -> Glowstone/Beast Heart (26-2700 gold) build that I think provides similar protection to the current HotBL but on a 100% basis vs hero attacks and no annoying charge system. Granted it is slightly more expensive, and a slightly harder build up in the Helm of the Victim vs a Lifetube but I think its still pretty solid.

As a rough idea on the amount of defense against harass you get from the Iron shield -> Helm of the Victim -> Glowstone/Best Heart (+5.86 armor,20 block, +3 regen, And 200HP/150 Mana or 250HP). If you go from a base armor of 5 to 11 armor (some rounding because I'm lazy) it is a damage reduction factor of 23.1% to 39.8%, 16.7% more physical damage blocked. So an average physical attack of say 50 damage would have been reduced down to 50*(1-.231) = 38.45, and for 11 armor it is 50*(1-.398) = 30.1. Which is a difference of ~8.35 damage per attack. So 20 + 8.38 = 28.35 damage 'blocked/reduced' off of every hero attack with an iron shield and an addtional 6 armor when starting at 5 armor. And that is pretty darn close to the 30 block you get off of a HotBL, and it is 100% (60% block vs creeps) of the time regardless of how many heroes are attacking you. It also gets better if your hero has naturally low armor since you will get a larger effect from the armor increase.

Also Iron Shield - > Helm of the Victim -> Steamboots might be pretty viable at a slightly higher price point (2950), but you needed boots at some point anyway.

With the glowstone build you can go straight into icebrand/FWS and beast heart goes straight into Behe Heart, while converting the Helm of the Victim into a Shamans at some point once it makes sense, or just keep the helm until you no longer need it and pick up a vestments. And with the proliferation of Sheildbreaker the +5.86 armor you get really early is probably not a bad thing. Another viable route once they fix it might be going for sac stone with the glowstone/beast heart you pick up.

*Macro you should probably check my math and make sure I'm not spouting random stuff.

[changlingbob]

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming you mean agi steamboots (25 haste, 10 agi), and you're assuming a pair of soulscream rings because you're talking about maxing agility, we're talking about a gank squad consisting of a level 11 arachna and a level 12 dark lady. I'm also assuming that base agility on a hero does count towards attack speed, as I can never remember which stats go into the base derived stats and which don't.

Assuming a slightly more conservative gank squad of, say, andromeda and bubbles at level 6, each with boots and power supply (this andro is particularly fed, but has striders because I'm sensible, and bubbles has a bottle and is trying to get this gank for his PK); andro has 43 agi, bubbles has 32 agi and 35 haste from steamboots.

This gives a grand total of 1.8 attacks per second, giving 18.6 and 12.4. Perhaps my assumptions here are wrong; primarily when helm should be relevant to the game, but also notably that with more farm, the original gank squad requires less agility from levels and so don't necessarily have to be level 11 hard- and super-hard carries.

So, no comment when your assumptions are shown to be completely crazy? OK.

[Omega]

So, no comment when your assumptions are shown to be completely crazy? OK.

OMG someone hasn't logged on to the forums in 24 hours. Time to be a jerk!

[changlingbob]

Actually its been a week and a half, and I'd rather people weren't making game (or balance) decisions based off of misleading maths.

[MacroHard]

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming you mean agi steamboots (25 haste, 10 agi), and you're assuming a pair of soulscream rings because you're talking about maxing agility, we're talking about a gank squad consisting of a level 11 arachna and a level 12 dark lady. I'm also assuming that base agility on a hero does count towards attack speed, as I can never remember which stats go into the base derived stats and which don't.

Assuming a slightly more conservative gank squad of, say, andromeda and bubbles at level 6, each with boots and power supply (this andro is particularly fed, but has striders because I'm sensible, and bubbles has a bottle and is trying to get this gank for his PK); andro has 43 agi, bubbles has 32 agi and 35 haste from steamboots.

This gives a grand total of 1.8 attacks per second, giving 18.6 and 12.4. Perhaps my assumptions here are wrong; primarily when helm should be relevant to the game, but also notably that with more farm, the original gank squad requires less agility from levels and so don't necessarily have to be level 11 hard- and super-hard carries.


So, no comment when your assumptions are shown to be completely crazy? OK.


Actually its been a week and a half, and I'd rather people weren't making game (or balance) decisions based off of misleading maths.

This is why I provided an entire table that covers the slowest of slow to the insanely fast. If you want to use the row for 1.8 attacks per second instead of 2.4 attacks per second then go right ahead. Sheesh.

Note1: Even at 1.8 attacks per second, like you suggested, HotBL is still less effective block-wise than Iron Shield. Add a third hero at the same 0.9 per each and the 2.7 attacks per second is less effective than an Iron Buckler after 5 seconds.

Note2: What I say at Note 1 is identical to what I said in my conclusion. The highlighted row on the table is more of a mid-late scenario, where 2.4 attacks/sec total is far from unreasonable.

[changlingbob]

And its an early-mid survivability item, so its lategame potential matters less. Highlighting a lategame value for a mid-game item is dumb.

[Alastar]

And its an early-mid survivability item, so its lategame potential matters less. Highlighting a lategame value for a mid-game item is dumb.

Got owned so changes the previous statments about attackspeed to something random about late game potential ftw...

Hrs talking about how effective the item is now vs befour, why you would change from it being a mid or late game from attackspeed issue i dont know :)

[The`Darkness]

Does the new Helm of Black Legion (HoBL) stack with iron shield? If so, how does it work? Do both proc (causing you to block 50 dmg at times), or does the iron shield only proc during the milliseconds when HoBL is at 0 charges, or what?

Also, if HoBL has less than 5 charges and a hero attacks, what happens? Does it still block 30 dmg or does it do nothing, while still causing you to repeatedly revert back to 0 charges?

[MacroHard]

They stack completely in terms of mechanics. If both proc at same time, only higher value is used.

So if there are 4 charges on hotbl and you have iron shield, if a hero attacks you you will block 20 damage (melee). If a creep attacks you you will block 30 damage and hotbl will lose one charge.

Basically if you do not have enough charges currently on hotbl it will resort to checking your other shield.

[The`Darkness]

Thank you very much for that quick response.

In your opinion, would it be better to fill that item slot with Iron Shield, or Ringmail?
Assuming that you already have decent armor rating (such as agi heroes), already have HoBL, and that you expect to be physically attacked heavily in team fights.

[SmurfinBird]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes! (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?337020-Complete-Guide-to-Armor-Damage-Reduction-and-EHP)

Also, this link too! (http://sdrv.ms/WfKUaW)

Alllllll credit to MacroHard. Some of this is out of date I think, on the second link. I do apologise.


Edit: Seriously insi why are you stalking me

[iNsania]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes! (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?337020-Complete-Guide-to-Armor-Damage-Reduction-and-EHP)

Also, this link too! (http://sdrv.ms/WfKUaW)

Alllllll credit to MacroHard. Some of this is out of date I think, on the second link. I do apologise.

smurfinbird is a good player and I approve of this statement.

[Fairlight_Ex]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes! (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?337020-Complete-Guide-to-Armor-Damage-Reduction-and-EHP)


That is an absolute statement - are you a Sith Lord?

[SmurfinBird]

Maybe.

[iNsania]

Maybe.

time for you to die...

[ElementUser]

My jedi powers (maybe borrowed from Idejder? idk...) will persuade you guys to keep future posts on-topic in this thread, winning this round for the jedi.

(Or else your posts will be deleted :mage:)

[SmurfinBird]

You have convinced me, oh great one.

Could you have a look at the HotBL in the spreadsheet I linked and let me know if that's accurate for the current one or out of date? MacroHard could answer too as he made the spreadsheet for the EHP to gold on items.

[MacroHard]

Out of date.

[The`Darkness]

I believe that my response might have been lost behind the other responses so I will repost:

Thank you very much for that quick response.

In your opinion, would it be better to fill that item slot with Iron Shield, or Ringmail?
Assuming that you already have decent armor rating (such as agi heroes), already have HoBL, and that you expect to be physically attacked heavily in team fights.

[SmurfinBird]

That depends on the damage the enemy does. The lower damage the enemy does per auto attack, the more iron shield is worth. In most cases past level 10, the ring mail will be better than the iron shield.

The iron shield does however grant a fair amount of agility. It helps last hitting for agility heroes and gives a small boost to armour and attack speed. Ring mail helps with both auto attacks and physical damage spells, however.

[The`Darkness]

Of course I would consider going ringmail over iron buckler if I am vs a hero like Deadwood and his willowmaker. But for now, I am discounting abilities/spells. I am just looking at direct attack damage (auto-attacks).

During midgame, I saw that ringmail increased my armor rating on Dampeer by about 10%. For people doing 200 dmg, that would mean that I would have an additional 20 dmg reduction from wearing ringmail. If they do less than 200 damage, then the additional damage reduction from ringmail would amount to less than 20 dmg. Conversely, if I were to go with iron shield, that guarantees a 20 dmg block regardless of how small or how large of damage the enemy attacks with. Most of the game, and in most games, the majority of enemies attack with less than 200 damage. For this reason, iron buckler would provide more defense against attacks, most of the time, correct?

---
If that's correct, then the next question I have would be whether iron shield would still be superior than ringmail, when I'm already wearing HoBL. Assuming that I still already have decent armor rating (Dampeer and other agi heroes), and that I expect to be auto-attacked heavily in team fights.

I ask this in context of MacroHard's explanation regarding how HoBL loses effectiveness against multiple enemy heroes in less than 5 seconds.

[Green]

too many variables.

HOTBL also regains charges, so if there is a lull in the fight due to something like your team's magmus stunning them then you would be blocking with it more.



my advice would be dont waste the item slot on iron shield when you already have HOTBL and use it for something that gets bigger.