Puppet Master

[Lethe]

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2936/honhellbournetype02.jpg

Update: As of the last patch puppet master has a base agility of 20, furthermore, his base str is 18, his str gain/level is +1.9, his agi gain is +1.5/level and his int gain is +3.1/level

Skills: Learns Puppeteer's hold, Puppet Show, Whiplash,
Voodoo Puppet

Disclaimer:
Welcome to my Puppet Master guide. Just to introduce myself, I play under the tag Trainingday in HoN/Cod4 and the tag TinyBlackTears in dota. I have played dota for 5 years now and have acquired a good taste for all fields of play, from pub level to scrim vs EG/MYM level. This is my first guide I have ever written, and if it goes ok, it will hopefully not be my last. This guide is meant to be straightforward and to the point. I will not go over basic skills like last hitting and ward placement, however, you can refer to Nome's guide on warding by following this link http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=4839

Skills:

Puppeteer's Hold: The puppet master ties up an enemy with puppet strings. The strings slow down an enemy's attack speed and restrain movement

Target: Hostile Unit

Type: Magic, note that this spell cannot be casted on a hero who is already magic immune, however, if a Hero gains magic immunity after being held, they will still be "held". AFAIK this skill can be countered by blink type skills but that knowledge is not reinforced.

Range: 600
Radius: 400
Mana cost: 115/140/165/205
Cooldown: 14 seconds at all levels
Duration: 3/3.75/4.5/5.25 seconds
Status: -10/15/20/25 attack speed

Notes: Puppeteer's hold will apply a constant "pull" toward the location at which it was casted. If the afflicted unit reaches the radius, it will quickly be pulled back toward the original location. The loss of attack speed is almost negligible, so this skill can indeed by considered a movement disable, nothing more, nothing less. In dota terms, this is similar to what sprout does (not completely true, but the closest comparison). Also stops many heroes from using displacement type spells.

Puppet show: The puppet master enslaves an enemy unit as his puppet. The target is driven crazy and will attack the closest unit, be it friend or foe.

Target: Hostile unit
Type: Magic
Range: 700
Radius: 250/300/350/400
Cooldown: 30/28/26/24 seconds
Mana cost: 125/140/155/170
Duration: 2.5/3/3.5/4 seconds

Notes: attacks are non lethal. Note the range on this skill, and how it is superior to puppeteer's hold. Also note the cooldown. This is not a skill you want to throw away lightly. You will not be given the opportunity to use this skill twice in one fight. I consider this skill superior to puppeteer's hold in general and to be quite blunt it is your go-to skill. You will be initiating ganks and disabling key heroes with this skill. You better get good with it.

A "crazed puppet" hero will prioritize allied heroes first, allied creeps second, and finally anything else that passes through the 250/300/350/400 radius.

Some interesting mechanics about this skill: A hero affected by this debuff also has unit walking. Note that the forced attack command applies only at the instant puppet show is cast, meaning that if you cast it on a hero with no one nearby, who later runs into a unit, he is not forced to attack that unit. Furthermore, if the unit being attacked from the hero affected by crazed puppet dies, puppet show ends. Keep this in mind, as although a hero under puppet show cannot kill whoever he is attacking, other sources can deal fatal damage. Finally, if the unit being hit by a hero under crazed puppet becomes invulnerable, puppet show ends.

Credits go to ElementUser for clarifying this.


Whiplash: Imbuing his attacks with his magical puppet strings, the Puppet Master is able to increase his base damage and unleash devestating attacks that damage multiple opponents.

Type: Passive
Effects: On every 5th attack, the puppet master's attack does 125/150/175/200% dmg and splashes for 25/50/75/100% in a 200 radius. Also passively increases base damage by 5/10/15/20%. Removes one charge every 12/10/8/6 seconds when not attacking.

Notes: Everytime you attack the icon for whiplash will have a number that decreases. Once it hits 1, your next attack will apply whiplash, and the counter (number) will go back to 5. There's not much to say about this skill, it will help you last hit and help your farm. The "harrassment" aspect of it is highly overrated. Note that the % damage of whiplash assumes that 100% is normal damage. In other words, 200% dmg is essentially a 2x crit, and 125% dmg is 1.25x crit. Every 5th attack is amplified by all dmg, whether raw or gained from levels/stat items. The passive dmg % bonus applies stat/stat items exclusively.
Furthermore, the splash on every 5th attack is dealt as pure damage and is effected by the 125/150/175/200% bonus, in other words, once maxed out you are essentially splashing a 2x crit on all units within 200 aoe of the target. The 0.1.48 patch means you can go into a fight knowing that your first attack will hurt.

Voodoo Puppet: The puppet master imbues the essence of an enemy in a puppet. The puppet can then be attacked by the puppet master or his allies. The voodoo puppet takes increased damage, and will apply damage taken to the target as magic damage.

Target: Hostile Unit
Type: Magic
Range: 600
Cooldown: 150 seconds
Mana cost: 150/200/250
Voodoo puppet takes 160/180/210% dmg and has 5.5 magic armor (same as heroes). It has 450/700/950 hp and transfers all damage to the target in full, even if it dies. The puppet lasts until the unit moves 1500 dist away from the target, or the puppet is killed. As of 1.30.1 patch, voodoo puppet cannot be dispelled. Voodoo puppet has armor value of 0.

Notes: I recommend casting puppet show over puppeteer's hold when chaining your ult since puppet show silences and has better cast range. That doesn't mean puppeteer's hold + ult is bad, but you can certainly run into problems if the enemy hero is more then willing to fight back. You do not want to waste this skill.

While certainly useful, it has a 150 sec cd, which imo is far too much for what is essentially a single-target nuke. Make sure you communicate with your teammates and tell them who you intend to ult. Finally, math proves that attacking the puppet is ALWAYS better then attacking the hero, regardless of physical armor, magic armor, or level of voodoo puppet.

Finally this spell's damage does not go through magic immunity.
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Core analysis: This is where we analyze hero-specific stuff like stat/stat gain and movespeed. The Puppet Master's base stats/stat gain are above average, with a str gain of +1.9/level starting at 19 base str, he is durable relative to other int heroes. He has a 600 range, a decent base armor of 2.38, and 300 movespeed. As far as the basics go, the Puppet Master is on the right foot. His stats are generally higher then most other int heroes, he has 600 range, and his base armor and movespeed surpass those of other int heroes. His base damage is nothing to be proud of, but luckily whiplash augments that.

However, he has no nukes, and his disables are what I call "pseudo-disables", they are not true disables and are not always reliable. From this, we can determine that puppet master's early game comes in the form of last hits/denies, and to be honest that's about the extent of it. Trying to harass with whiplash will not only draw creep aggro but will likely result in a nuke/stun combo to your face.

Puppet Master is likely the best farmer in the game. I have quite a bit of experience playing other strong ricing carries like Maliken, War Beast, tDL, Madman, Magebane and even Zephyr. And with all that in perspective, Puppet Master is the safest bet for farming the best. If you want to crush your opponents with 20k in gear after 45 mins, read on.

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Skill build:
1: Puppeteer's Hold
2. Whiplash/ Puppet Show
3. Whiplash
4. Puppet Show / Whiplash
5. Whiplash
6. Voodoo Puppet
7. Whiplash (maxed out)
8. Puppet Show
9. Puppet Show
10. Puppet Show (maxed out)
11. Voodoo Puppet
12. Puppeteer's Hold
13. Puppeteer's Hold
14. Puppeteer's Hold (maxed out)
15. Stats
16. Voodoo Puppet (maxed out)
17-25. Stats

Whiplash is taken ASAP due to the last hitting it provides. You may be wondering why we do not take his disables ASAP, and the reason is simple, remember, they are pseudo-disables that don't even deal damage. Furthermore, even low levels of his disables still accomplish a reasonable amount compared to higher levels. If you think there is risk of dying early or getting an early bloodlust, take puppet show at level 2 instead of level 4.

As of a recent patch puppet show is incredibly superior to puppeteer's hold and should be prioritized over it.

His ult is strong despite the cooldown and should be taken whenever possible.

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Item build: This section has been revamped. As of the 0.1.63 patch, the item build for puppet master has become much more straightfoward and more deadly.

Core items (early):
-Steamboots


- With lifesteal no longer stacking with harkon's, there is very little justification for getting an early whispering helm, the benefits that whispering helm give on puppet now do not outweigh the benefits of a faster harkon's blade or shrunken head. You can alternatively stack lifesteal with something like savage mace, but the damage potential of harkon's outweighs any other dps item in the game.

Core items (mid):
- Great Arcana -> Harkon's Blade
- Shrunken Head

- You might remember how I made a rant about how Harkon's was possibly the single most impractical item in the game very shortly after it was introduced. The dps potential of harkon's easily outdoes what even riftshards and doombringer bring to the table, but no hero with the exception of puppet master had the mana pool to manage its high upkeep, and even on puppet master it was one of the last items you would realistically complete.


However, that has changed and harkon's is much more usable now...and just as deadly. I don't want to repeat myself as I already did an analysis on the effects of the harkon's on puppet master so I will just post what I said earlier near the end of the guide.

Shrunken head is still core, should be no surprise there. People don't like getting beat upon by a 600 range int hero who can tear people up in seconds. Shrunken head basically says "Too bad, accept it and lose".


Luxury Items (late)

This will vary and honestly you shouldn't be getting the exact same items at this point in the game every single game, you should be adapting. Nevertheless, your premiere choices should be:

Kuldra: Enough mana regen to use harkon's freely. Very nice stat boost and a hex that will prove invaluable against heroes that you need to remove asap in a fight.

Hellflower: Same thing as kuldra basically, provides more dps though and is my preferred choice against carry heroes that do not go shrunken head for whatever reason. Combined with puppeteer's hold that's 5.25 seconds where they have no chance of escape.

Symbol of Rage: Why would you get this item if the lifesteal doesn't stack with harkon's? Well a few reasons, one, it is still the best defensive item in this game besides shrunken head on a carry. Two, the active stacks with all attack modifiers. And finally, you can sustain yourself in a push by using lifesteal as a modifier when harkon's isn't necessary.

As a result of this you can build either portion of SoR first. Whispering helm gives you a varied amount of ehp, since you need to have creeps to attack to get your health back, and some armor. Axe gives you +25 str. Personally I would get Axe first but it's up to you.

Geometer's Bane: Images carry over whiplash and magic damage. Similar to shieldbreaker characteristics, the magic armor reduction will not stack but each image can apply their own debuff. This is an incredibly dangerous item late game on puppet master. Combined with his snares and his range, by keeping the images alive you are gaining a MASSIVE boost in dps. There's just one catch, make sure you have harkon's activated before you cast geo.

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Ancient Creep stacking (outdated and no longer needed to play puppet properly, but kept for references sake)This is a skill that takes practice, that's all there is to it. Let me first say, that stacking in HoN is easier then in dota, due to smaller checkpoints, a checkpoint is an area in a creep camp that checks for creeps/wards every minute, and will spawn a creep camp if there are no creeps or wards there.

Also, creeps controlled by whispering helm do not expire after a period of time like they do in dota.

- First, dominate a strong creep, preferably the vagabond leader, but either the catman champion or minotaur work ok as well.

-Hotkey the creep, and send them to either ancient camp, close, but far away so that they do not draw aggro.

- At every :52-57 seconds, have the dominated creep draw aggro from the ancients, and immediately pull it back, if you are on legion, pull it bottom, if you are on hellbourne, pull it top.

- The :52-57 second range is rather general and basically, the more creeps you have stacked, the more time you will want to allow them to leave the creep camp.

- You can stack as many times as you want. It gets harder as the stacks build up though, and I typically go kill a stacked creep camp after 3 or 4 stacks. If you are using a vagabond leader, you can simply nuke the stack and to prevent any damage to the creep. You can do this 3 times before it runs out of mana.

- Your neutral is bound to take damage while drawing aggro. If it takes too much damage send it to the fountain to heal before returning it.

- Gain vision of the entire stack, and attack in the center, where whiplash will affect the most creeps. Run back, attack, run back, attack, until you are approximately 800-1000 dist away from the camp, this is where the ancients will begin returning to their camp. Two things that are key here, is to remember PM has 600 range, and that he has whiplash. Keep an eye on the counter and use it to your full advantage.

- This gets easier once you have stronger items. I have killed like ~8 stacked ancient camps with nothing more then 2 bracers, steamboots, helm and great arcana. Yes, it took me a while, but it was well worth it.


Laning: Puppet is not a strong solo despite what people think, sending him mid solo is a one-way ticket to being crushed by soloes who will surely abuse bottle in much stronger ways then puppet can. These heroes include:

Thunderbringer, Soulstealer, Defliler, Torturer, Pharaoh, Voodoo Jester, Pollywog priest, Moon queen and even Pyromancer. Other heroes that don't need bottle but that can likely outsolo a puppet master anyway include Hellbringer and Blood Hunter.

So where should we send Puppet Master? Long story short, the side lanes. If he can solo, great, if not, that is fine too. Focus on last hitting over harassing, because harassing is not a good idea when you have pseudo-disables and no nukes. If the enemy is slow to retreat from a creep wave, cast puppeteer's hold or puppet show.

Ganking: Open with puppet show if there is someone for the target to attack, and then chain with puppeteer's hold. Ult if needed (before puppeteer's hold but after puppet show) and auto-attack bla bla. If you are casting on the same target, please chain your disabling spells to make the most use of them, this should be common sense. Use shrunken head/geometer's bane/kuldra/hellflower/harkon's as needed.

Team fights: Ult either the carry or key disablers like succubus, but watch out for magic immunity. Cast puppet show like you would hex, because in a team fight scenerio puppet show is basically hex. Use puppeteer's hold as need be, don't cast it just because you can, look for enemy heroes that are fleeing or will greatly suffer from its effects (melee dps hero) or to save an ally who is being chased by an enemy hero. Again, use your item spells as need be. Something you should remember is that Voodoo puppet has 0 armor, therefore activating symbol of rage and then attacking the puppet will cause your hp to skyrocket.

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Replays:
Replays are unfortunately not backward compatible before 0.1.63 and as such all the replays I had before are invalid are a waste as I will never be able to see them. If you feel you have a good puppet master game, send me the match ID and I will check it myself and see if it is worth uploading to my guide.

Edit: Your replay should follow the basics of my guide. In particular, I want to see ancient stacking done, no it doesn't have to be perfect, but your replay should demonstrate how ancient stacking on puppet master gives you a massive edge in gold. I would HIGHLY prefer that you follow my guide to at least the steamboots + whispering helm + harkon's point. As Puppet Master is a hard carry I would prefer if the game lasted 40+ mins and if you demonstrate very strong farming abilities: 20k in a hour (which I personally think is incredibly leniant as a very strong puppet master player in an ideal game could probably do it in 45 mins), or 400+ creeps/hr, which, again, should be cakewalk if your early game and ancient stacks go well.

Well I still have a few replays pending so keep em coming if you have them. For now, check out replay 22281780 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=22281780). My first game as puppet master in a long time, but luckily I manage to accomplish everything in this guide. The game was a 5v5 AP game with Brazilians so I had no idea what they were saying the entire game. Skill level was 1575+ so for me it was cakewalk. But you should get the idea. Not a flawless game, I could have played better, but this replay makes obsidian destroyer's dps seem weak. Watch and Enjoy!

Also, a 3 round series between 5 and WHP, where puppet master is picked in all 3 games and wins in all 3 games. Coincidence? Judge for yourself...This is the first and best game.

Round 1 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=24549052)


Round 1 is played by 'Chu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joKOC8re8xU A video of puppet master, this one is rly nice and shows some very good in-battle micro.
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Analysis about Harkon's blade (ctrl-c ctrl-v from a previous post) : K I want to put in my final input on this since school starts again on monday for me, the patch will very likely come out by then, a friend who i play hon with came back from germany, and puppet master will always remain my favorite carry.

Steamboots + whispering helm is still not going to change. Combo will always be solid on puppet master.

The extension items though can basically be compressed into one build now solely due to the harkon's change. You can easily use the same build to pub smash and play ih/scrims now.

Now the basics about harkon's, it WILL cost 50 mana/attack and essentially drops their reduction to 0 if they have no magic armor. Compared to shieldbreaker, it is not much better early game given that the -6 armor will have a much bigger impact early in the game when heroes have less armor (keep in mind a good puppet master will prob have steamboots+ helm+ shieldbreaker in 24 mins or so which will devestate casters early on).

It grants 150% mana regen, which is absolutely crucial to maintain it. It grants 60 dmg on puppet master (being an int hero).

So now there are 2 crucial questions you should ask.

1) Can puppet master maintain his mana pool long enough to make use of harkon's even if he blows off all his spells? Keep in mind this is a 25-30 min puppet master we are talking about.

2) Is it practical to go harkon's that early when shieldbreaker will essentaily do the same thing, albeit at that stage?

The answer to the first question is yes. I did multiple simulations where I had a mid level puppet (13-16) with the 3 item combo blowing through all his spells and still having sufficient mana to deal more then enough dps. With voodoo puppet on cd, the mana pool was even more generous. I was impressed.

Which leads to the second answer. Absolutely. There is only 1 real perk shieldbreaker has above harkon's now, and that is farming related. I've mentioned before that I like to begin killing ancient stacks with a warhammer, but harkon's has nothing in it that will really help you kill stacks significantly earlier. Puppet Master is a raw dmg hero, so until you farm harkon's, your farming power will suffer, albeit slightly.

Once you farm harkon's though, it is all clear skies. Microing your harkon's right before whiplash will devestate creep waves and the mana cost will be negligible.

Conclusion: Harkon's will be core on puppet master shortly and his effective damage potential will skyrocket. If you know the mechanics behind armor you will know harkon's is the best dps item late game, beating out even riftshards and doombringer. It can easily double your dps, or even more. It will force the other team to go headdress/shrunken head, because they WILL have no choice in the matter.

New item build will look like Whispering helm -> steamboots -> harkons (great arcana first, acolyte's staff is relatively useless until you complete harkons) -> shrunken head -> Symbol of Rage -> true luxury (kuldra, hellflower, frostwolf skull).

I urge all you puppet master fans to try this build out when the patch comes live, because I know it will work. I can see the potential that this build has, and I would go so far as to say that the harkon's buff effectively counters all nerfs puppet master has gotten up to this date. If I can get a replay of this build up in full effect by monday I certainly will. Hell, I might even modify my guide since it will take me like 5 minutes to do so (and compress it as well!).

TL DR: Puppet Master is still a top carry, and will be around for quite some time :)

Other items that I don't particularly think are viable on puppet master as of the last patch include:

Shieldbreaker/Daemonic Breastplate: If you are dealing magic dps via harkons, reducing their physical armor is meaningless. Daemonic Breastplate was often stacked with shieldbreaker but with the usefulness of shieldbreaker dropping, so does breastplate. If you can't survive with shrunken head + symbol, I doubt breastplate will help you much.

Savage Mace: An item that I got in some of my puppet master games before, the introduction of the buffed harkon's, as well as the ability to carry over magic damage, make savage mace basically useless in any realistic scenerio.

Charged Hammer: I've always really hated this item in general. The increase in farm is INCREDIBLY minimal, it is definitely not a core item and the luxuries I mentioned are clearly much better. Yes, you may be dealing magic damage, but carrying is not all about dps, which is something people have to get across their minds.

Assassin's Shroud: People know I am incredibly biased to assassin's shroud due to my competitive nature. People have advocated the voodoo puppet + backstab + whiplash combo to deal massive amounts of instant damage to a single hero, and while the math does work out, there are many practical flaws with this. For example:

1) Enemy is clutch with shrunken head = you have screwed yourself and your whole team.

2) Inability to autoattack a lane while pushing a base (remember puppet master's whiplashes by late game can easily whipe out a creep wave) since you MUST save your whiplash charge for the voodoo puppet.

3) 150 second cd on voodoo puppet. Carrying with puppet master is NOT about focusing on a 150 sec high damage amplifier to one person.

4) Extreme fragility due to lack of hp. 19 base str +1.9 str gain isn't incredibly tough, and you will die so fast to nukes/stuns flying everywhere you won't even know what to say.

Frostburn/Frostwolf skull: Doesn't stack with harkon's. Nuff said.

Cheers.

[Feriluce]

Nice guide. Would be nice with a bit more info and reasoning about items, as thats where most ppl (including me) have problems.

[Lethe]

Thank you for your input I will get around to it shortly.

[PoopyDesires]

Not a bad guide at all, but I agree with Feriluce.

Off-topic, does Whiplash's splash deal 100% of your normal damage or 100% of the 200% damage?

So if I deal 50 normal damage with Whiplash, does it deal 100 damage to the target and 100 damage nearby it or 100 damage to the target and 50 damage near by it?

[Lethe]

whiplash's splash deals 100% of the 200% damage.

Yes it sounds pretty good but the radius is only 200 at all levels so you will be incredibly lucky if you ever hit more then 1 hero with this skill. The use of the splash is essentially restricted to farming.

[Lethe]

Nice guide. Would be nice with a bit more info and reasoning about items, as thats where most ppl (including me) have problems.

o hold on wat do u mean by more info?

[PoopyDesires]

More information on skills I'd presume, like the whiplash thing.

I guess I see your point, but even with the 200 AoE in team clashes you shouldn't have too much of a problem, especially if you use Puppet Show on a melee hero to hit one of his enemies. Automatically slams them both together 100-128 range apart. If you play AP with Legionare it'd be even better.

[Lethe]

More information on skills I'd presume, like the whiplash thing.

I guess I see your point, but even with the 200 AoE in team clashes you shouldn't have too much of a problem, especially if you use Puppet Show on a melee hero to hit one of his enemies. Automatically slams them both together 100-128 range apart. If you play AP with Legionare it'd be even better.

Yea I agree but the bottom line is you shouldn't count on it. That's like people saying "I can go 2 runed axes on darklady, cast ult so that they bunch together in fear, then cast dark blades and charging strikes and team kill them." While essentially that is true, again, you shouldn't count on it. Who's to say that puppet show makes the enemy hero attack a creep, or one of your allied heroes, for example?

Edited guide with updates to item build explanations and whiplash mechanics.

[Darkstrand]

Early levels of Whiplash do very negligible damage that early in the game, I'd rather see people get Hold and Show before any points into Whiplash.

[Lethe]

Early levels of Whiplash do very negligible damage that early in the game, I'd rather see people get Hold and Show before any points into Whiplash.

This has been addressed already. Puppet Master's disables are not real but are "pseudo-disables". One is like sprout (granted slightly better) and one is like conditional hex. If you think about the lanes you will encounter in any given game, you will know psuedo-disables are not that useful early in the game. Whiplash at least lets you not fall behind in levels, and on the fifth attack it is a guaranteed last hit.

Long story short none of his spells are that great early game, but if I had to choose, I would go whiplash. Do note I have one level of hold and show by level 6, which is 5.5 secs of pseudo-disable, which certainly isn't bad by any means.

[Darkstrand]

This has been addressed already. Puppet Master's disables are not real but are "pseudo-disables". One is like sprout (granted slightly better) and one is like conditional hex. If you think about the lanes you will encounter in any given game, you will know psuedo-disables are not that useful early in the game. Whiplash at least lets you not fall behind in levels, and on the fifth attack it is a guaranteed last hit.

Long story short none of his spells are that great early game, but if I had to choose, I would go whiplash. Do note I have one level of hold and show by level 6, which is 5.5 secs of pseudo-disable, which certainly isn't bad by any means.

Yes they are... Levels one and two should very well be put into his disables. End of story.

[Kietharr]

Whiplash is the only thing he has to control a lane, he should definitely max it out first. As far as the pubstomper build goes, I like going Steamboots > Hellflower > Frostwolf, skadi is just LOL on him when you pump his attack speed high, he scores like 500dmg crits with it after hellflower.

[Lethe]

If you want to take both disables in the first 2 levels, by all means go for it. Experience tells me you will very rarely the both of them that early, but who knows you could be doing something like roaming so it might be all right. It's not a huge deal and if you want to take both disables at 1 and 2 over 1 and 4 that is fine, I won't argue. Taking puppet show at level 4 instead of level 2 is not going to cost you the game, to be honest I will be surprised if it even costs you bloodlust, but getting bloodlust with puppet master or his lane partner is unlikely because puppet master is not a strong laner. If you can grab a fast bloodlust in your lane it's probably due to enemy fault.

Frostwolf is a solid item overall but its expensive and is just another item to put in the luxeries section. Tbh as far as pubstomper builds I could throw in codex 5 if I wanted. It's just a raw guideline for people who are new to HoN and puppet master.

[Llama]

Considering the dmg done to the doll that is transfered goes into the negitaves, I would suggest a codex, as you attack the doll down to ~10% hp, then codex nuke it. You could say you might as well codex them, but the doll is good for escaping heroes and also works against invis

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

Some things: The ult has several situations that are much better for it. I got jumped by a scout mid game, used the puppet attack to break his stealth, then ult... my second hit was a whiplash, and it pretty much destroyed him from half hitpoints, since it splash onto the ult doll as well, which was 2x + 2x*1.8, or 5.6x normal damage.

I found puppet to be a good solo, even vs zeus... you just need to level the show rather than the strings... the range is longer and prevents casting. You can pop it, get 3-4 hits including a whiplash, and go back to hanging back. It's worth mentioning that puppet's auto attack has a long range. I don't like leveling both his skills early, because I don't think he has the mana to support it... depending on whether puppet is laning against spellcasters/stealth or melee should make him pick show or hold respectively.

I mostly like the build... Even in-house, I went treads + bracer + shieldbreaker, then tank items. I think you are selling puppet short if you consider puppet show just to be hex, it's quite a lot better than that situationally, since it controls movement (retreating melee will run back towards you and your lines), not to mention the damage.

[Mellow]

Considering the dmg done to the doll that is transfered goes into the negitaves, I would suggest a codex, as you attack the doll down to ~10% hp, then codex nuke it. You could say you might as well codex them, but the doll is good for escaping heroes and also works against invis
And the puppet takes 160% damage.

[Glorify1]

1 Hold
2 Show

Or alternate, whiplash isn't useful in the first two levels where as your two disables can easily net you a kill or save an allies life. I am for getting whiplash in the next three levels, as it can be used to overkill your puppet for massive damage.

Lower the size of the white text, the main stuff you're talking about, it's far to large and irritating to the eyes.

[Lethe]

@ Bluepowervan: I really don't think i am underselling puppet show. It has 24 sec cooldown when maxed out compared to 13 sec cd on hex at all levels. It has better range then hex. If used improperly it can do nothing or even worse, hurt an ally. Hex doesn't have this problem.

Granted it's actually a good disable, but with a 24 sec cooldown, come on now, let's be realistic.

@ Llama and Mellow: If you want to have fun and go codex, by all means go for it. Don't try it in a serious game though, the synergy is weak when your ult has 150 sec cooldown.

@ Glorify: While my playstyle is generally passive I realize that if you have a lane partner like, say, swiftblade, puppet show at level 2 makes sense. On the other hand, you can be soloing against thunderbringer, in which case you will need whiplash so badly you might even level it at 1/3/5/7. Nevertheless I have updated the skill build to reflect this.

Also, the next lowest size is the size I am using right now. Personally I think it's your own problem, but if other people vouch for the "large and irritating to the eyes" I will fix it, thanks for your input.

[Tyrando]

however, without the ability to post screenshots in game I realize that this will be hard to learn, so http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=280458 for a dota guide on ward placement, which is similar to HoN



Theres nothing wrong with sharing Videos/pictures/ingame footage on these forums, the NDA only states that you shouldnt share ingame footage with people not in the Beta.

Also why not get Whiplash at lvl 1?

i find it hard to belive you'll be throwing around lvl 1 spells, the whiplash can help with last hitting etc.

[Lethe]

Theres nothing wrong with sharing Videos/pictures/ingame footage on these forums, the NDA only states that you shouldnt share ingame footage with people not in the Beta.

Also why not get Whiplash at lvl 1?

i find it hard to belive you'll be throwing around lvl 1 spells, the whiplash can help with last hitting etc.

AFAIK you cannot screenshot by pressing prt scr like you could in wc3, yes I realize there is probably software that would allow me to post screenshots of HoN but I do not have alot of surplus time and the link should give you everything you need to know.

Although not very common in pubs, in higher skilled games players might try an early bloodlust. Whether you/your ally is the target or you are the ones trying to get the bloodlust, it doesn't take a genious to figure out that whiplash is useless in that scenerio. Similarily, it is the same logic as to why you may get puppet show as early as level 2 or as late as level 4.

If anyone has questions addressing my skill build plz see the reasoning in the guide before doing so.

[daxa]

Most of this is really just common knowledge. Great guide anyway. Easy to read, understand and everything is posted in sequence.

[Lethe]

Most of this is really just common knowledge. Great guide anyway. Easy to read, understand and everything is posted in sequence.

Ty it means alot to me.

[Saba7]

I tried your build. Puppetmaster is now on the way to being my favorite hero.

[reinis1]

Casting Switblade's ulti while snared by Puppet Master looks interesting. Incidentally, I think "snare" sounds better than "pseudo-disable".

[Shadowcamsy]

First of all, puppet master is my favourite hero.

You have done a very good job on the guide, nice strategy section and item builds, and the skill build is exactly the same as mine, however I have a few disagreements :P

For starters I think puppet master is a great mid solo hero, whiplash for last hitting + 600 range on upcliff for heroes that try to harass you. Since you are getting whiplash you'll constantly be attacking creeps to get the stacks back and therefore pushing your lane more than a lot of heroes. Also when you take runes into account (dd, img, invis, reg), 3/4 are extremely useful for puppet master, combined with the fact you can use 2 abilities to rune ninja;
dd - 200% splash + 2x damage = holy smeg, 400% damage?
img - whiplash is a passive ability, your images get whiplash as well
invis - gank another lane, or save for an escape

With bottle-puppet master you can also use puppeteer's hold on a player and get 3 free attacks off, 4 if you animation cancel and you know they're going back.

I think you've left out a few key strategies to puppet master, such as dropping the puppet at a tower and letting the tower kill the puppet while you pummel the hero. Also an explanation of puppet master's role in team fights would be nice, and good/bad lane combinations for him.

Enough nitpicking from me, and time for a question :P

Is it possible to bring the puppet down to a small amount of life and then use a powerful nuke like pyro's ultimate on the puppet for full 210% of 1250 damage to the hero?

[Galvor]

im total newbie, what items i should buy for puppet?
what those words mean:
Rush Alch Bones
-Finish Steam boots
-Build Shieldbreaker
how i do that :)

[Lethe]

First of all, puppet master is my favourite hero.

You have done a very good job on the guide, nice strategy section and item builds, and the skill build is exactly the same as mine, however I have a few disagreements :P

For starters I think puppet master is a great mid solo hero, whiplash for last hitting + 600 range on upcliff for heroes that try to harass you. Since you are getting whiplash you'll constantly be attacking creeps to get the stacks back and therefore pushing your lane more than a lot of heroes. Also when you take runes into account (dd, img, invis, reg), 3/4 are extremely useful for puppet master, combined with the fact you can use 2 abilities to rune ninja;
dd - 200% splash + 2x damage = holy smeg, 400% damage?
img - whiplash is a passive ability, your images get whiplash as well
invis - gank another lane, or save for an escape

With bottle-puppet master you can also use puppeteer's hold on a player and get 3 free attacks off, 4 if you animation cancel and you know they're going back.

I think you've left out a few key strategies to puppet master, such as dropping the puppet at a tower and letting the tower kill the puppet while you pummel the hero. Also an explanation of puppet master's role in team fights would be nice, and good/bad lane combinations for him.

Enough nitpicking from me, and time for a question :P

Is it possible to bring the puppet down to a small amount of life and then use a powerful nuke like pyro's ultimate on the puppet for full 210% of 1250 damage to the hero?

Thank you for your input, and to your above question, the answer is yes. In fact, if you do the math, you can nuke down a voodoo puppet with Pyro's combo (assuming the puppet isn't attacked by other heroes) to do over 2000 dmg to the target (that is after spell reduction). These situations are far and wide between, but it is something to keep in mind.

About the mid solo thing, tbh every hero benefits from bottle. Who doesn't want hp/mana regen and the ability to bottle runes? The problem is though, that some heroes benefit from it far more then others. About dd, whiplash doesn't start maxed out, so the damage even from whiplash is far less noticeble. The same applies to img. Invis is probably the best one early game to pick up for the reasons you stated, but even then you don't need bottle for it. Just grab it and gank!

The fact of the matter is, the list of "mid-solo" heroes I listed WILL crush an equally skilled puppet master. Having 600 range and a decent passive is one thing, but not having any nukes is quite another. A hero who's sole form of lane control is physical attacking is not a great solo. Comparing in dota terms, puppet master's laning ability is similar to sniper's or silencer's. He can farm, sure, but he is heavily vulnerable to nuke harass.

Puppeteer's hold only does something in a solo lane if the enemy mispositions himself. Otherwise it isn't particularly strong, the enemy can just turn around and start casting/attacking. If the hero is one of those "mid-solo" heroes, you won't win.

About the "key strategies", well, I wanted this guide to be as short as possible and as concise as possible. Tbh I believe I have given enough information to the user so that he knows what a good lane combo is (something like swiftblade puppet master) and what to do in team fights (actually I think I do have a section for team fights).

@ Reinis: Yea maybe but personally I associate the word "snare" with slows, but that is just me, honestly as long as you realize what the spell does it shouldn't matter too much :P

@ Galvor: Rush=farm as fast as possible. I do think you should get boots before you rush alch bones though, it is generally alot more practical and safe.
Finish=complete an item that you have already started. For steam boots, you already have marchers, so finish the recipe+components aite?
Build=start to create an item.

[Sw4n]

i use whiplash for harassing way more than farming. hes an awesome babysitter.

[Lethe]

i use whiplash for harassing way more than farming. hes an awesome babysitter.

It depends on the strength of the other lane. Attempting to harass against something like voodoo jester electrician will get you killed. Against easier lanes it is viable, but I wrote this guide assuming equal skill level on both the user's side and the opponent's side. That includes picks.

[Sw4n]

youll be able to harass the electrician just fine. your range is pretty ridiculous. if your hero is so bad that you cant even attack a melee hero with 600 range by a creep wave then you obviously shouldnt be picking him. not trying to get into a debate here, just stating that he is a good harasser, and you CAN use whiplash to harass just like you did SOMETIMES with the old garbage storm spirit.

[Lethe]

youll be able to harass the electrician just fine. your range is pretty ridiculous. if your hero is so bad that you cant even attack a melee hero with 600 range by a creep wave then you obviously shouldnt be picking him. not trying to get into a debate here, just stating that he is a good harasser, and you CAN use whiplash to harass just like you did SOMETIMES with the old garbage storm spirit. dont write a guide and expect 0 useful input in the comments.

Don't get me wrong I appreciate your comment but I already addressed it in the guide. 600 range is good on any hero but it doesn't make you immune. I compare puppet master to 2 dota heroes with physical harass ability, silencer and SS, and I know that once a lane combo against these decides to take decisive action, the lane control of puppet master falls considerably. You can 'babysit' with a decent variety of heroes, but some are better for it then others. Viper, who was buffed pretty hard post 6.60, is known for his dominant physical harass, but he suffers from the same problem as puppet, in that once he is locked it is over. I even predicted when viper got buffed that his win ratio would be less then .5, and I was right, for that exact reason. You can only do so much with physical harass. It gets to the point, though, that stun/nuke/disable combos > all.

I don't mention harassing with puppet master in my guide because I personally think harassing with whiplash is a very poor habit that will come bite you in the ass as you progress against players with higher and higher skill. I believe in getting people off on the right foot.

[digrejzo]

the fact that he has 600 range is pretty enough for harassing effectively.
if you're careful, that is.

[Lethe]

the fact that he has 600 range is pretty enough for harassing effectively.
if you're careful, that is.

Against more and more skilled opponents, this becomes less and less true. I don't want to elaborate on it, just take my word for it.

[project156]

can someone tell me wtf alch bones are?

[MadManDrit]

i didnt read all the comments but wouldnt the boots of travel(dota name) be better on him? N i agree with whiplash first you can last hit or harass ur enemies quite easily, so far bloodstone(dota name) has been working quite well, since he doesnt have alot of HP n gettin bracers help too

[Darkstrand]

i didnt read all the comments but wouldnt the boots of travel(dota name) be better on him? N i agree with whiplash first you can last hit or harass ur enemies quite easily, so far bloodstone(dota name) has been working quite well, since he doesnt have alot of HP n gettin bracers help too

In a serious game a support hero should never farm a BoT or a Bloodstone. You can pubstomp any way you like though :P

[MadManDrit]

lol well the pubs on my team usually end up suckin or not callin miss etc soo, mayb i need to have better teammates/opponents :P

[Lethe]

can someone tell me wtf alch bones are?

initiation shop, made up of gloves of the swift and a 1400 g recipe, for a total cost of 1900 gold. Gives you +30 ias and a 100 sec active that allows you to turn any enemy creep or neutral (not ancient) into more gold then you would have normally gained by killing it by other means. A fast alch bones is a good idea because it usually pays for itself pretty damn quick, but only on heroes that can make use of it. A slow or delayed alch bones is very rarely a good idea, because by the time it has payed for itself it probably isn't even worth it.

[Glorify1]

@ Glorify: While my playstyle is generally passive I realize that if you have a lane partner like, say, swiftblade, puppet show at level 2 makes sense. On the other hand, you can be soloing against thunderbringer, in which case you will need whiplash so badly you might even level it at 1/3/5/7. Nevertheless I have updated the skill build to reflect this.

I disagree, the power of having both is far too invaluable to skip, especially when you should be out-creeping him in the first place without any points into whiplash. If you aren't, it's either your inability to creep or he's last hitting with c.lightning, the latter pretty much barring you from the ability to deny those creeps anyways.

The strength in Show/hold is showing when they're out of position, likely getting creeps to pound on them for a while, then holding to keep them there to either finish or deliver critical amounts of damage.


i find it hard to belive you'll be throwing around lvl 1 spells, the whiplash can help with last hitting etc.
Well, you can find people out of position all over the map, mainly at the runes in the beginning of the game. Most good players will camp the runes out of vision, and move to grab it when it's spawning, and if it's a good rune you can almost always score a first blood with the aid of a DD/Invis/Haste.

[KarNaj]

I'm still a bit confused with his ult. I've tried him in two games so far, and maybe only used it 4 times.
So for example, let's say a 1v1 ganking situation where the kill is absolute. You cast your ult on your target. Then you will want to cast Hold afterwards, and only target the puppet so your target takes the damage, yes?

Or in a group gank. Do you always want to attack the puppet? or target the Hero to hit, while allies hit the puppet?

-cheers

[Lethe]

I'm still a bit confused with his ult. I've tried him in two games so far, and maybe only used it 4 times.
So for example, let's say a 1v1 ganking situation where the kill is absolute. You cast your ult on your target. Then you will want to cast Hold afterwards, and only target the puppet so your target takes the damage, yes?

Or in a group gank. Do you always want to attack the puppet? or target the Hero to hit, while allies hit the puppet?

-cheers

K first of all let me clarify something. Nukes that go through puppet are reduced to 56% of their stated damage, that is because voodoo puppet has magic armor and the dmg dealt is magic dmg, therefore .75 squared.

HOWEVER, due to the damage amplification taken from the puppet, it is ALWAYS more practical to nuke the puppet, if you do the math behind it the nukes will always do more damage then nuking the target (though if you can hit both you should try). Due to the same amplification, physical attacks follow the same logic: it is more practical to hit the voodoo puppet.

It is not intuitive to hit the puppet, let me say that. There is nothing like voodoo puppet in dota. You will have to communicate with your allies about who you intend to ult.

Finally, I have realized that my section with voodoo puppet is not quite up to par, if possible it is almost certainly more practical to cast puppet show and then ult rather then puppeteer's hold and then ult. I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but I will change it.

Hope my reply helped you. Long story short, always try to hit the puppet over the enemy, it will ALWAYS do more damage, unless the target has magic immunity, which would result in 0 dmg from voodoo puppet regardless. Also, if circumstances permit, use puppet show to initiate a gank with voodoo puppet over puppeteer's hold.

Edit: Updated guide with further notes on voodoo puppet and puppet show. Minor revisions in team fights and ganking section.

[Discord]

Trainingday--

Your analysis of both this hero and his HoN applications I think are spot-on.

Your guide is consise, easy-to-read, and extremely informative. Seriously-- it's one of the best quick-read information grabs I've seen. Not only that, but your responses to replies are informed, impartial (not douchebaggish at all-- just very straightforward) and rapid.
Sincere props.

I'll always eyeball author names for further guides you put out, now.
Thanks for the read, sir.

[sakatana]

I just played a game as Puppet Master following this guide. The only thing I noticed is that PM starts with rather low health, so I bought some bracers off the get-go.

Since I was soloing and able to farm up quickly, I went straight for the Steam Boots and skipped the Alchemist's Bones in favor of a hex totem. Alchemist Bones are nice because of the IAS, but the totem gave me bigger damage. I completely overlooked how good the Hell Flower is on him, offensive and defensive possibilites and IAS, you couldn't ask for more.

Another item that I thought would be fun to play with, probably mostly in pub games, would be an Eldar Parasite. "Play with" is key in the previous statement.

[tayuku]

What happens if you use an AoE that hits both the puppet and the target? Will the target be damaged by both cases?

[Lethe]

What happens if you use an AoE that hits both the puppet and the target? Will the target be damaged by both cases?

Absolutely.

@ All: Thx for your input thus far and believe me, I sincerely appreciate it. Time permitting I intend to write a Slither and Soulstealer guide this week as well.

[KarNaj]

Also, if circumstances permit, use puppet show to initiate a gank with voodoo puppet over puppeteer's hold.

One quick question on this as well. 1v1 situation: Is it possible to cast your Voodoo doll on your target, then puppet show to make him attack the doll? then kill the doll, cast hold, gg?

Is that what you meant by your quote? or just in general, always open with a puppet show, then hold as they flee?
thanks for the guide and imput

-cheers

[sakatana]

@Trainingday: Gotta say, the quote in your sig makes me laugh. Do want more.

Looking at it again, it's a little hard to see what items you're listing in case you need a quick reference. Perhaps some bold or pictures? All-in-all, excellent guide, though.

[Lethe]

One quick question on this as well. 1v1 situation: Is it possible to cast your Voodoo doll on your target, then puppet show to make him attack the doll? then kill the doll, cast hold, gg?

Is that what you meant by your quote? or just in general, always open with a puppet show, then hold as they flee?
thanks for the guide and imput

-cheers

Yes this is possible but it is hard to pull off and potentially dangerous.

I don't know what you mean by my quote, but in general, yes, you always want to open with puppet show and hold as they flee. I realize that the trick you mentioned is only possible if you cast voodoo puppet before puppet show, but believe me, it is not reliable.

@ above after looking over my guide I am inclined to agree. Bolded item build to make it easier to see.

[Wappo]

Puppets a fun hero...Was hitting 1800 crits the last time I played him.

[Lethe]

Edited guide to reflect patch changes. If anyone can confirm that voodoo puppet damage goes through magic immunity I will be eternally grateful.

[stakhouz]

you guys are forgetting he needs to be a chaser. After lots of team battles all his spells will be off cooldown, so the thing to get is a blink dagger. Then you slow and allow the rest of your team to catch up. This way he is a great chaser, and initiator to pick off a hero to stop a push. Build is steam boots, hellflower, blink dagger (portal key), mkb, and he is untouchable.

[stakhouz]

sorry for duel post

[Weasel_Boy]

I like the guide but I would like to add to your item build.

I have found great success in using Codex(dagon) in coordination with his ult. The 800 damage nuke gets multiplied by 2 at the 3rd rank of his ult.

For killing anyone all you need to do is do the standard disable chain and melee attack the puppet till 10-30%. Then hit it with your Codex. Since the damage translated is not based on the health of the puppet but the damage it takes, it would take your melee attacks and then an extra 1600 when it only has 100 hp left. This makes for a very powerful nuke.

Also, Codex is just nice anyways for getting those runners.

[Brannock]

Voodoo Puppet transfers all damage taken to the target, right? What happens if Legionnaire uses his ultimate skill on it?

[Lethe]

@ Brannock: It is likely similar to dota, in which there is a damage cap. If this is true legionaire's ult will likely do the remaining dmg, amplified. This is just theory though I haven't actually seen this.

@ Weasel Boy: I cannot honestly support codex on puppet. Assume you have codex 5 and nuke a level 3 voodoo puppet. The damage dealt is 800*2.1*.75*.75= 945 actual damage after all resistance calculations (assuming no additional magic armor).

945 dmg is not bad but on an ult with 150 sec cd...it just isn't worth the price. Yes codex has other uses besides comboing with ult but there are better items for puppet master, all of which are cheaper too.

[Elatus]

Voodoo Puppet transfers all damage taken to the target, right? What happens if Legionnaire uses his ultimate skill on it?
Axes aka Legionnaires ulti can only be used on heros. (Tried it yesterday with the puppet, didnt work).

I dunno about the build you recommended. These tuts are kinda lame, coz build should differ, according to the enemy heros. If there is a mage, I would recommend linkens (dont remember the name in HoN). I totally pwned with one item: DAGON ! (again, dont remember the name in HoN). When you make a puppet out of your enemy, just zap the puppet with the dagon. Easy pie.

[Lethe]

Axes aka Legionnaires ulti can only be used on heros. (Tried it yesterday with the puppet, didnt work).



O well there you go. In dota Axe can ult creeps if he wanted. So yea you dont' ever have to worry about being instagibbed with voodoo puppet+decapitate.

[Shrubby1]

nice guide :)

[rus_mcgyver]

Good guide keep it up.

[Kry1]

Does crit + whiplash stack?

[Lethe]

Does crit + whiplash stack?

Yes, the 125/150/175/200% dmg is further amplified by crit.

So if you were to buy flayer on Puppet Master with whiplash maxed out and critted on your whiplash attack you would essentially be hitting a 4.4x crit.

The chances of this happening are far and wide between though. This is why I don't recommend flayer. Edited guide to reflect this.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

Puppet is a very good last hitter, so I was wondering: are alch bones such a good choice? Also, there are so few ranged carries in HoN, is steamboots, shieldbreaker + 1x bracer a viable build for a damage slot in competition?

[Lethe]

Puppet is a very good last hitter, so I was wondering: are alch bones such a good choice? Also, there are so few ranged carries in HoN, is steamboots, shieldbreaker + 1x bracer a viable build for a damage slot in competition?

You don't HAVE to get alch bones. However, with PM's easy last hitting I find myself with alch bones money in less then 10 mins the vast majority of the time. It pays for itself quickly and allows you to technically control the lane easier with whiplash. Whether you are an experienced player or not, I recommend both trying alch bones and leaving it. If you are having a rough early game I would suggest skipping alch bones entirely.

I don't like the idea of PM as a dps carry in competitive play. His health pool is not sufficient enough to focus on his carry potential. I heavily favor the idea of PM getting a fast totem of Kuldra, turning him into a deadly disabler.

If you are playing competitively and are farming very well early game, go ahead and go alch bones, but know that there is a risk with delaying marchers and not buffing stats ASAP.

In fact tbh even in pubs I go totem of kuldra + alch bones but I know many of the players like to physical dps because it is fun, which is why I wrote an alternative pub build.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

Ok, thanks. I don't have much of any experience with competitive scene. Some of the differences make sense to me (more wards, more stuns, more reliance on hp to last through stuns in general), but is it more that 1) ranged dps is not useful in competitive match, 2) puppet is not a good pick for that role, or that 3) totem is just more useful. If totem were limited to 1 per team, would you still rule out treads/shieldbreaker , in favor of marchers/puzzlebox... or would you suggest that puppet is probably the best place for that 1 totem to be at?

[SWARM_THEM]

the casting range on this guy's spells bother me :( sometimes i feel like I need a BKB to be able to pull off all my spells before i get disabled by something, lol. i wish his ult had lower cooldown too, it's nice but i don't think its so OP to warrant its huge cooldown.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

the casting range on this guy's spells bother me :( sometimes i feel like I need a BKB to be able to pull off all my spells before i get disabled by something, lol.

you're probably trying to open with the snare (strings), it has a really short range. the one you should use at range, if possibel is the show which has much longer range.

to further explain about my "omg I think he's a viable carry" fetish: Whiplash, on average, causes you to deal 40% splash, as well as buffing single target damage by 20% (comparable to other carries +damage from skills). Intelligent use (front-loading the whiplash) will see this average double in the short run. So, you have more splash than any melee hero, without the inconveniance of getting up in people's faces. 20 str and 2.1 gain is a pretty good amount of hp (a good bit better than, say, arachna).

I mean, there aren't that many ranged dps'rs. Arachna's aura only affects base, rather than total damage... and I don't think her slow/disables/ult compare favorably to puppet's. Soulstealer is a stronger dps, but doesn't disable. Veno doesn't have much reason to try to be a damage/carry. I'm sure there is some hero I am not thinking of, but puppet seems to me one of the stronger candidates for ranged damage/carry (on the strength of stats and whiplash), out of all HoN heroes.

[Lethe]

Ok, thanks. I don't have much of any experience with competitive scene. Some of the differences make sense to me (more wards, more stuns, more reliance on hp to last through stuns in general), but is it more that 1) ranged dps is not useful in competitive match, 2) puppet is not a good pick for that role, or that 3) totem is just more useful. If totem were limited to 1 per team, would you still rule out treads/shieldbreaker , in favor of marchers/puzzlebox... or would you suggest that puppet is probably the best place for that 1 totem to be at?

Well it's a bit of everything you mentioned.

1) Ranged dps heroes have traditionally been rather "squishy" heroes. Now granted PM has a rather high base str/str gain and decent agi gain. His dps though isn't great, but it isn't bad...remember that whiplash amplifies all damage but that the passive bonus applies to base damage only.

Now that I think about it there are only 4 heroes that can possibly act as ranged dps heroes. Out of all of this, only one is a true ranged dps carry, Arachna. I think we all know Arachna's weaknesses. The other 3, Soulstealer, Valkyrie and PM, have other priorirites besides pure physical dps.

2) Puppet CAN physical dps, just like Soulstealer and Valkyrie can dps. It's just not their primary role. I mentioned that in pubs, that after you build shieldbreaker, you should go whatever your team needs. The same principle applies in competitive play as well, except that kuldra is replacing shieldbreaker. I guess it may have not been intuititive so I did slightly modify the comp. play section to reflect this.

3) Yea basically totem of kuldra is just way to good not to get. An extremely powerful disabling item with very good casting range. In fact I find myself killing heroes just as easily with kuldra then I do with dps items like flayer or shieldbreaker. It also makes you harder to kill since you have a clutch hex item.

Totem is usually not limited to 1/team, but yes I would consider PM the best candidate for it. Puzzlebox is incredibly powerful and probably the 2nd best item on PM in comp. play, but unfortunately it is currently buggy and sometimes true sight doesn't work, so it is unreliable.

So with that being said if for whatever reason you can't go kuldra...fine go shieldbreaker or hellflower to dps. I've never like hellflower to dps though.

[EnragedCamel]

Tried this guide last night, and holy **** this hero is fun as hell.

Went for alchemist bones early and got the attack speed boost, which helped with last hits a lot. From there, I built a Hellflower.

Let's just say that, between two crowd-control abilities and the silence effect of hellflower, I was unstoppable.

[Lethe]

Edited the formatting a bit. Let me know your opinions please.

[geez]

Can U do A guide On Pollywog??
Ur guides R the best guides for newbies, and they dont use too many terms that newbies dont really know of.

[Tallyn]

Edited the formatting a bit. Let me know your opinions please.

Double thumbs up on this guide and all your others. I've played them all and they're highly useful. If you have time to do more, I'm sure we'd all appreciate it (except some of these guys who have nothing better to do than disagree with everyone on principle).

The only thing I'd suggest for this, and all guides in general, is to add a "cliff notes" section where the item build and stat/skill progression are right next to each other in condensed form. This would make it really easy to read when alt-tabbing during a match or looking at it on a second monitor.

Keep it up!

[eyCoco]

This hero needs flayer imo.. :O Flayer + Desolater.. = a 600-1100 dmg aoe nuke on every 5th atack :O which is preatty $%#&ing nice ^^..

and really really imbalanced :P..

[KurtProSkill]

i disagree, i find it to be a very effective harrassing skill.

[Lethe]

This hero needs flayer imo.. :O Flayer + Desolater.. = a 600-1100 dmg aoe nuke on every 5th atack :O which is preatty $%#&ing nice ^^..

and really really imbalanced :P..

Meh it's fun but daemonic breastplate is just better, that's all.


i disagree, i find it to be a very effective harrassing skill.

I intend to start an awareness thread about the best picks of this version. I'll gladly give you a sneak peak, early game heroes are extremely dominating atm. Puppet Master isn't exactly an early game hero, he has two rather "meh" disables early on and the best he can do is last hit. It's like saying Arachna is good for harrassing, which is trivial to the opponent's picks and skills more then your own.

Players that want to win WILL draft plenty of early game raw power atm. Any hero that is not an early game powerhouse will have to play passively early on. Puppet Master is one of those heroes. Just wait until Magmar and Succubus are introduced. This game is currently focused on ganking and early game laning, not turtling or farming.

[wblower]

hey. first of all: great guide. im new to the game, and the puppet master class was my insta-favourite. i made a build based on this thread, and i won my last 10 3v3 games (while loosing all 6-7 before...). i have a question: what other (alternate) class would you advise for someone who plays puppet master? i need something that is ranged and plays / gears very similar. any tip is very appreciated.

[Lethe]

hey. first of all: great guide. im new to the game, and the puppet master class was my insta-favourite. i made a build based on this thread, and i won my last 10 3v3 games (while loosing all 6-7 before...). i have a question: what other (alternate) class would you advise for someone who plays puppet master? i need something that is ranged and plays / gears very similar. any tip is very appreciated.

Well this is kinda interesting. PM is his own unique class, he is a ranged hero with rather situational disables (that are not channeling) and he can be built to dps. If you love your disables and nukes, try playing pollywog priest, pyromancer or Demented Shaman. Try heroes like Glacius, hellbringer, torturer and voodoo jester as well.

I'm sorry if this wasn't exactly what you were looking for, but as I said earlier PM is actually a very unique hero. Trying to play any of the heroes I listed as dps heroes would not work as well.

[wblower]

thanks, i was just looking for some names and i got them. i will try the heroes you listed, thanks again...

(but i also feel that PM is unique, coz later on the game he gets very good dps, with some aoe, plus he has some real nasty skills [that are the most useful, when you have someone with you on your lane, that knows what hes doing)

[Godrek]

Puppet show is a great ability, I solo'd mid with PM, against arachna, puppeteer's hold would be useless against her so I maxed puppet show/whiplash first, it worked very well, when she tried to harass/attack I could use puppet show and attack her while she was forced to attack her own creeps, and when she was low I was able to ult/kill.

Another nice thing I found out about puppet show, is it is like Dazzle's shallow grave, the non-lethal damage can save you or a teammate about to be killed.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

Another nice thing I found out about puppet show, is it is like Dazzle's shallow grave, the non-lethal damage can save you or a teammate about to be killed.

Wow, I never thought of that. That's really ballsy and quite interesting.

[Lethe]

Puppet show is a great ability, I solo'd mid with PM, against arachna, puppeteer's hold would be useless against her so I maxed puppet show/whiplash first, it worked very well, when she tried to harass/attack I could use puppet show and attack her while she was forced to attack her own creeps, and when she was low I was able to ult/kill.

Another nice thing I found out about puppet show, is it is like Dazzle's shallow grave, the non-lethal damage can save you or a teammate about to be killed.

Yea it's a nice perk but the usability of it in that kind of scenerio is rare. This is because of the long cd and the more "offensive" use of puppet show as a disable, rather then a form of shallow grave. Granted it does work though so I will comment on it.

[KovAXE1]

Can a few puppetmaster give me their item builds for pub and serious so i have a few options to try because as of right now i do runes,mana pot, 2 pretenders crowns, Enchanted boots, 2 braclets (consumes crowns), 3 steam staffs, hellflower (consumes staff), whispering helm, and w/e items i choose to get after. i would like to get a better one for puppet master so please reply with your item build.

[EnragedCamel]

I get Alch Bones first and go jungling, then buy boots with the money I make. From there, built a hellflower and dominate.

I may get boots sooner if the enemy is aggressively ganking, but with a slow and a disable, running away hasn't been an issue (if there's 3 people chasing then boots won't help you anyway).

[Godrek]

I only play pubs but my build is to get bottle, alch bones, steamboots, riftshards, daemonic breastplate, flayer. It gives you a lot of ias and survivability with the breastplate and the flayer/riftshards increase your dps by a lot, once you get flayer you can do some huge crits on whiplash, the downside is you end up one shotting your doll.

[blackosprey]

The very successful build I've been using (Went 10/7/20 tonight with it as a support-carry).

Items:
1. Steamboots: Health, move speed, attack speed.
2. Bracer/Talisman: Health if I'm doing badly, damage or mana if I'm doing well. On the contrary to what Training says, if you're going to gank you need mana, as casting your stuns drains your mana at low level, and the ult finishes it off by the time you hit level 6. Still, the health (Bracer) should be your first priority if you're not doing well.
3. Warpcleft: Spend 200 more gold, get 25 more attack speed. Yes, you don't get a skill that gives you up to 75 gold once every 100 seconds... but the extra attack speed will more than make up for that in kills and creeping.
4. Hellflower: Attack speed, damage, the mana and regen are useful for travel ganking, and of course the silence.
5. Shield Braker: Damage and the armor reduction.

If you get this far, it's up to you. The Eldar Parasite would keep you alive for a while longer, and the 75% attack speed will make your auto attack into more of a laser attack. I'm going to experiment with it, but I'm wondering whether it'd be worth it to buy Eldar before the SB. Also, if you're getting stomped throw in some of the other items that Trainingday suggested, to keep you alive.

EDIT:
Some calculations for Eldar:
-284 attack speed before hellflower.
-About 330 attack speed with hell flower, gained attack speed from agi level gain.
-75% of 330 = 247.5 attack speed during Eldar's active.
-577.5 attack speed.
-577.5 attack speed.
-577.5 attack speed.
-THAT'S A LOT OF ATTACK SPEED.
-Then add 17% life steal, and gentlemen, we have a winner.

[Juular]

AWESOME guide. Thank you, Trainingday. You made my day just now, as well as my game multitudes better. I had a rough idea of how to play PM before...but now I'm liking him a lot better.

[Charade]

The very successful build I've been using (Went 10/7/20 tonight with it as a support-carry).

3. Warpcleft: Spend 200 more gold, get 25 more attack speed. Yes, you don't get a skill that gives you up to 75 gold once every 100 seconds... but the extra attack speed will more than make up for that in kills and creeping.
4. Hellflower: Attack speed, damage, the mana and regen are useful for travel ganking, and of course the silence.
5. Shield Braker: Damage and the armor reduction.


Alch Bones give you 200 gold every 100sec, not 75. Warpcleft = Waste of money for start of game, and then its not helping for the buildup to hellflower.



EDIT:
Some calculations for Eldar:
-284 attack speed before hellflower.
-About 330 attack speed with hell flower, gained attack speed from agi level gain.
-75% of 330 = 247.5 attack speed during Eldar's active.
-577.5 attack speed.
-577.5 attack speed.
-577.5 attack speed.
-THAT'S A LOT OF ATTACK SPEED.
-Then add 17% life steal, and gentlemen, we have a winner.

+You take 25% more damage, while your HPZ are paper since you wasted money, and you get one hitted by any nuker since your spells aren't true disables . No TY. However this might work vs some teams, and would definitely help with the FARM. Maybe worth a shot.

[ChukNorris]

Put some images in your guide... call more atetion of the reader's

[iOP1]

Codex + VooDoo Puppet = Ouchies lol, (Pub Games Ofcourse) :]

[AliHazzar]

@Trainingday - Love the guide, thank you so much for putting this together, I really have been wanting to try this hero out but was always scared off because i'm still trying to get a handle on the game. Your guide has given me new courage to make the effort. Had a few questions for you though if you would be so kind on a few things i'm still a little fuzzy on grasping what you mean.

1) I saw mentioned a couple times using puppet show as a shallow grave ability to help an ally in trouble because it deals non-lethal damage? Could you illustrate how this works, I was never very familiar with the ability in Dota, and am having a tough time visualizing what you mean and hwo this can be used to benefit an ally.

2) What is the range on the Puppet hold ability after it's been cast. IE: once they are stuck in the strings how far of movement away do they have before snapping back into place?

3) This might be a silly idea entirely and display my total noobness, but with his 2 semi-disables is that enough time to get the hero down or do you find your still chasing? would nullfire blade by a viable usefull item in anyway, or is it just kinda superfluous?

4) I keep seeing hellfire (orchid) thrown around as a power weapon for PM, is it better than shieldbreaker, and does totem jsut copmletely own all. From a n00b standpoint, and sticking to DPS at least at the start to keep things easier on myself while learning, would it be better to do orchid or shieldbreaker, and between the two which one, or is there something better people are finding?

Thanks for your time, and more importantly your guide!

[Lethe]

@Trainingday - Love the guide, thank you so much for putting this together, I really have been wanting to try this hero out but was always scared off because i'm still trying to get a handle on the game. Your guide has given me new courage to make the effort. Had a few questions for you though if you would be so kind on a few things i'm still a little fuzzy on grasping what you mean.

1) I saw mentioned a couple times using puppet show as a shallow grave ability to help an ally in trouble because it deals non-lethal damage? Could you illustrate how this works, I was never very familiar with the ability in Dota, and am having a tough time visualizing what you mean and hwo this can be used to benefit an ally.

2) What is the range on the Puppet hold ability after it's been cast. IE: once they are stuck in the strings how far of movement away do they have before snapping back into place?

3) This might be a silly idea entirely and display my total noobness, but with his 2 semi-disables is that enough time to get the hero down or do you find your still chasing? would nullfire blade by a viable usefull item in anyway, or is it just kinda superfluous?

4) I keep seeing hellfire (orchid) thrown around as a power weapon for PM, is it better than shieldbreaker, and does totem jsut copmletely own all. From a n00b standpoint, and sticking to DPS at least at the start to keep things easier on myself while learning, would it be better to do orchid or shieldbreaker, and between the two which one, or is there something better people are finding?

Thanks for your time, and more importantly your guide!

1) a hero under the effect of puppet show deals non-lethal damage, in other words, he cannot kill any hero, only bring them down to 1 hp, under this effect. If there was a toe-to-toe fight going on and you show up and cast puppet show on the enemy, and both fighters are almost dead, you are essentially giving your ally a 4 second head start. The uses of puppet show like this are extremely rare though. Out of like the 12 games I have played with puppet I have seen this window of opportunity like 3 times.

2) That is the radius. 400 iirc (it's in the guide)

3) Yea nullfire blade is bad and you will very rarely need it unless your team absolutely needs a nullfire blade and your agi heroes can't get one for whatever reason.

Remember you have teammates, get them to help you with your ganks. All gankers work better with teammates. And yes, when with teammates and using all my spells (plus kuldra if I have it farmed), I find it more then enough.

4) I have to be honest here, I don't like hellflower in dota, and I don't like in HoN. While giving a nice dps boost and silence, it doesn't give any bonuses to hp, and to be quite blunt kuldra > hellflower. While I certainly admit PM is quite capable of being a dps hero, he is still vulnerable to stuns/nukes which really hampers his survivability. I find myself killing with kuldra just as easy as killing with hellflower, if not easier.

If you are going to dps, shieldbreaker is far the most cost-effecient item on PM, for the reasons I listed in my guide. Flayer is ok in theory but in practise is very luck dependent due to whiplash. If for some reason I had like a 90 min game with puppet my final build would probably look like enhanced marchers, kuldra, shieldbreaker, shrunken head, daemonic breastplate, and flayer, in that order.

[TanganBerapi]

go burize (i dont remember the name) for battle puppet. u owns the game!

[PaCi]

I prefer play this hero as an imba ganger / disabler than DD.
I mean Travel / Hex

[Sufferr]

Just something most ppl dont know:
Buriza´s Crit (Donno its name here dont remember)
Stacks with Whipslash´s so... as soon as you have buriza done if it procs with the proc of whipslash u ONLY get AROUND 1k AOE CRIT ^^

[Lethe]

Just something most ppl dont know:
Buriza´s Crit (Donno its name here dont remember)
Stacks with Whipslash´s so... as soon as you have buriza done if it procs with the proc of whipslash u ONLY get AROUND 1k AOE CRIT ^^

Yea this is true it is essentially a 4.4x crit. You have a 20% chance to proc on every 5th attack though. It obviously isn't worth buying just for that. If you want a dps item after shieldbreaker get daemonic breastplate.

[Sufferr]

Yea this is true it is essentially a 4.4x crit. You have a 20% chance to proc on every 5th attack though. It obviously isn't worth buying just for that. If you want a dps item after shieldbreaker get daemonic breastplate.
Depending on your oposite team config, it is worth building buriza soon,
tested it, if they have like 1 stun, it rocks, tried that after rushing assassin´s shroud.. worked awesomely.. XD
1.2k crits

[Stergeary]

Concerning the Guide:

Something you may want to keep in mind is that the mechanics of Voodoo Puppet implies that the death of the puppet and the total damage that has been dealt are independent. This allows for variations of killing the puppet that makes it a stronger ability than you may imagine it to be, and justifies its 150 second cooldown for being just a "single-target nuke".

There are obviously going to be many low-level variations of the mathcraft I'm about to pull, but lets analyze the maximum potential of that particular mechanical nitpick, which is that the damage dealt and the death of the puppet are independent.

Imagine you cast a Level 3 Voodoo Puppet on a hero. You can choose to deal 949 damage to said Voodoo Puppet however you choose. This amounts to 949 * 2.1 = 1993 raw magical damage. Assuming that target is a hero, this amount becomes 1993 * 0.75 = 1495 net magical damage to that hero, since the basic 5.5 magical armor for heroes confers 24.8% magical reduction.

Now, concerning the Voodoo Puppet that is still alive with 1 health, let us take a Level 5 Codex and attack it for 800 magical damage. The Voodoo Puppet has 5.5 magical armor, reducing the damage to 800 * 0.75 = 600. The Voodoo Puppet amplifies this damage into 600 * 2.1 = 1260 magical damage, and the hero's own 5.5 magical armor reduces this into 1260 * 0.75 = 945 post-reduction damage. The total maximum potential damage dealt by Puppet Master himself is 2440 magical damage, a sizable amount.

If instead the Voodoo Puppet is broken at 1 health with a Staff of the Master Blazing Strike rather than a Level 5 Codex, it will deal 1250 raw magical damage instead of 800 raw magical damage. The math comes out to a potential total of 2972 net post-reduction magical damage to the hero victim.

Even though for ingame scenarios, this maximum potential will not be reached, Voodoo Puppet should still not be overlooked as a "150 seconds cooldown single-target nuke" the same way you would not dismiss a single-target spell with nearly a 3000 burst damage potential.

And of course, the second most important thing you forgot, Voodoo Puppet and the target hero take damage independently. I have killed a Thunderbringer I was soloing against middle lane from full life with a Level 1 Voodoo Puppet. After taking him to half health and the Voodoo Puppet almost expiring, the last attack was a Level 4 Whiplash proc that hit both him and the puppet on the same strike. The net damage dealt by that single Whiplash attack equaled to a 5.6x critical strike (This value accounts for the 200% damage dealt by the Whiplash damage, the 100% splash damage, the 210% damage bonus taken by the Voodoo Puppet, and the 24.8% magical reduction of the victim from translating the Voodoo Puppet's raw magical damage. This value does not account for the 24% damage bonus passive from Whiplash nor for physical damage reduction of the victim). This of course translates to all other area effect abilities. If you, for example, hit a Voodoo Puppet with a Wave of Death while hitting the victim with the same Wave of Death, the damage becomes 300 * 0.75 * 2.1 * 0.75 = 354 along with 300 * 0.75 = 225, totaling 579 damage for a single 300 raw damage nuke that would have otherwise dealt only 225 damage.

In addition, you may want to look into the possibility of using Puppet Show together with Voodoo Puppet to force your opponent to attack a Voodoo Puppet strung to him or herself.

So though I have not read the contents of the replying posts in this thread extensively, the opening topic post seems to omit some very important mechanical implications for the Puppet Master.

[badcom]

more pictures in guild please.

[Habile]

Wow, Stergeary. That is indeed an awesome combo. Puppet Show a hero into attacking their own Voodoo Puppet, and they'll bring it down to 1 life, due to non-fatal damage.

Only thing is, I've had quite a few instances of enemy heroes pwning their allies with Puppet Show, as it HAS actually done fatal damage.

[Lethe]

Wow, Stergeary. That is indeed an awesome combo. Puppet Show a hero into attacking their own Voodoo Puppet, and they'll bring it down to 1 life, due to non-fatal damage.

Only thing is, I've had quite a few instances of enemy heroes pwning their allies with Puppet Show, as it HAS actually done fatal damage.

Yea the stuff has been buggy and I have clearly seen it do both fatal and non-lethal damage.


To Stergeary: There is a damn good reason I didn't include any of what you suggested in my mechanics for Voodoo puppet. It is rare. How much extra damage do you honestly think you are going to get out of voodoo puppet? You'll be lucky to get over 300 the limit. The voodoo puppet + puppet show combo has alot of possible variables that can effect it...what if cast in the middle of team battle? The chances of the crazed enemy attacking the voodoo puppet is low to say the least.

The only time you can whiplash both the voodoo puppet and an enemy hero is if the enemy hero is melee and dumb enough to engage you at melee range without backup. I remember once splashing a whiplash on both my voodoo puppet and a madman on my second attack, he died instantly. Those occasions are rare though. Most people will be smart enough not to engage PM at melee range without sufficient backup. Doing so is basically suicide.

[andrewlarhow]

In addition, you may want to look into the possibility of using Puppet Show together with Voodoo Puppet to force your opponent to attack a Voodoo Puppet strung to him or herself.
can someone confirm if this is possible or not? it would be awesome cause then the victim will leave the voodoo puppet at 1 hp, leaving room for incredible possibilities such as the level 5 codex. this would allow for huge potential maximum damage if pulled off correctly.

[Lethe]

It is possible but like I said before the instances are rare. Since I use puppet show like 90% of the time before I use voodoo puppet (and you will likely have to until you farm your totem of kuldra) I don't personally consider it a reliable strat.

[Hiro]

Personally I prefer to max pupetteer's hold and whiplash first, with 1 point in puppet show. Hold gives an extra .75 second duration per level, which is pretty damn good.

I actually prefer fortified bracelets and rushing hellflower. He doesn't need the alch bones because he's already very effective at farming, and the extra silence/damage/ias/mana early on does help.

Nice guide though.

[Stergeary]

Wow, Stergeary. That is indeed an awesome combo. Puppet Show a hero into attacking their own Voodoo Puppet, and they'll bring it down to 1 life, due to non-fatal damage.

Correctly so. Being able to force an enemy to attack their own Voodoo Puppet with a Puppet Show will bring the puppet's health to the optimal point for casting a Codex or any other high-output finisher.


To Stergeary: There is a damn good reason I didn't include any of what you suggested in my mechanics for Voodoo puppet. It is rare. How much extra damage do you honestly think you are going to get out of voodoo puppet? You'll be lucky to get over 300 the limit. The voodoo puppet + puppet show combo has alot of possible variables that can effect it...what if cast in the middle of team battle? The chances of the crazed enemy attacking the voodoo puppet is low to say the least.

The only time you can whiplash both the voodoo puppet and an enemy hero is if the enemy hero is melee and dumb enough to engage you at melee range without backup. I remember once splashing a whiplash on both my voodoo puppet and a madman on my second attack, he died instantly. Those occasions are rare though. Most people will be smart enough not to engage PM at melee range without sufficient backup. Doing so is basically suicide.

I really don't know why you're being so defensive of your guide's current incarnation. I was making some rather relevant suggestions and possible clarifications to the hero as far as game mechanics are concerned. And I don't know why you're forcing my comment to become what it isn't: A do-this-everytime-as-Puppet-Master strategy. Will it occur every time that there is a Pyromancer with a Staff of the Master near you while you have a Level 3 Voodoo Puppet and a Level 4 Puppet Show on the same hero with the Puppet being ally-attacked while Pyromancer has has his Blazing Strike ready? Of course not. But any one separate condition is feasible: That there is a Pyromancer on your team with Blazing Strike ready; that you have farmed a Codex; that your enemy is indeed alone and you can snare him with the Puppeteer's Hold while you close in to perform a Voodoo Puppet with Puppet Show; that you have a Whiplash on your next attack and you can perform a Voodoo Puppet close enough to splash your Whiplash for a 5.6x critical. These are things you have to keep in mind, otherwise you will fail to take advantage of it even when the opportunity to perform one of these maneuvers appear, which would instead just make you a terrible player because that would be the definition of "not knowing your hero". For example, I watched a replay in DotA where a Syllabear abused Bear Form's transformation time to dodge Sven's Storm Bolt multiple times during a game. Was it that "the enemy hero is dumb"? No, because really, what are you going to do, never cast Storm Bolts? You keep referring to variables and luck and relying on the enemy to be stupid enough as refutations for why my points seem to be invalid, but are you really going to ignore my relevant suggestions when a scenario appears ingame where the variables do match, where the situation does occur, and where you catch your enemy's mistakes? Will you instead fail to capitalize on it? Rather than blaming those factors for your hero not being able to do what it potentially can, instead create a scenario advantageous for yourself and and win the same way competitive players do, by controlling the game. Enemy heroes not blind enough? Go behind them. Runs away from your Voodoo Puppet and Puppet Show combo? Use Puppeteer's Hold. Blinks away? Recruit a stunning or silencing ally for the gank.

And if I may add, whatever mechanical quirks I mentioned with the accompanying relevance that you questioned cannot possibly be any less useful than, rarer than, or more obscure than:


Also, this skill can act as shallow grave, only difference is that you would cast it on the hero attacking your ally/self rather then casting it on your ally/self. Personally I find the cooldown and the offensive uses of puppet show to exceed this aspect of puppet show, but it is nevertheless a nifty trick that should be acknowledged.

This nifty trick of yours will work when your ally is going to die on the next hit to an enemy hero and he or she is the unit Puppet Show will force target and your Puppet Show hasn't already been expended and Puppeteer's Hold will for some reason not also allow your ally to escape (possibly against a long-range caster) and after Puppet Show expires said enemy will cease attacking your ally and none of the other four enemy heroes and none of the creeps on the map are attacking that one health hero on your team. How's that for "There is a damn good reason I didn't include any of what you suggested ... It is rare."?


In addition, you may want to look into the possibility of using Puppet Show together with Voodoo Puppet to force your opponent to attack a Voodoo Puppet strung to him or herself.
can someone confirm if this is possible or not? it would be awesome cause then the victim will leave the voodoo puppet at 1 hp, leaving room for incredible possibilities such as the level 5 codex. this would allow for huge potential maximum damage if pulled off correctly.

It's like I'm being echoed. I kind of like it.

[Lethe]

^ Read what I wrote about the shallow grave trick, the next paragraph. Actually with the being said, you are right, I shouldn't be mentioning the shallow grave trick if I'm not mentioning the +2k dmg potential or the "stop killing yourself" trick on voodoo puppet. I've played enough games with puppet master that I honestly do not believe in either being a "go-to" strategy on puppet master. Removed, hope you are satisfied.

I'm sorry if I came off as defensive, believe me, I certainly didn't want to appear as such and with premium status on all 4 guides I am committed to keep them all in top-notch quality. If you have something constructive to say, I heavily appreciate your comments and concerns. Your comment made me realize what a waste of space the shallow grave trick was, and as such my guide is better then before (although technically I didn't have the trick in my guide initially).

I want my guides to be top-notch. Forumers want to read from top-notch guides. We are all in the same boat, so let's work towards the same goal :)

[FunkyMonkey]

Isn't runed axe better then shieldbreaker for puppet?
And should i get bottle?

[Shadowcamsy]

Isn't runed axe better then shieldbreaker for puppet?
And should i get bottle?

I'm going to go ahead and say no.... since Runed Axe has a Melee cleave and all...

Search this thread for instances of "bottle" to see why or why not you should go for it, it's a personal choice really.

[jay`t]

just wanted to toss a quick thank you for your guides... !

[Stergeary]

^ Read what I wrote about the shallow grave trick, the next paragraph. Actually with the being said, you are right, I shouldn't be mentioning the shallow grave trick if I'm not mentioning the +2k dmg potential or the "stop killing yourself" trick on voodoo puppet. I've played enough games with puppet master that I honestly do not believe in either being a "go-to" strategy on puppet master. Removed, hope you are satisfied.

I'm sorry if I came off as defensive, believe me, I certainly didn't want to appear as such and with premium status on all 4 guides I am committed to keep them all in top-notch quality. If you have something constructive to say, I heavily appreciate your comments and concerns. Your comment made me realize what a waste of space the shallow grave trick was, and as such my guide is better then before (although technically I didn't have the trick in my guide initially).

I want my guides to be top-notch. Forumers want to read from top-notch guides. We are all in the same boat, so let's work towards the same goal :)

I don't see why you would eliminate valid information concerning the hero from your guide. I was making a point by pointing out the fact that you included a tidbit in your own guide that dealt with a maneuver that would require an abnormal situation. But doesn't playing a hero at an advanced level require the ability to deal with those abnormal situations? In attempting to keep your guide concise, you instead risk blotting out potentially useful information from your viewers.

[Lethe]

well I've used the shallow grave trick mb like 3 times out of all the games I've played with puppet master. I've probably used the "stop killing yourself" trick twice. Know that while viable, the circumstances are extremely rare. You can be completely oblivious to these strats and still play a grade-A Puppet Master.

[_swEEt]

depending on the game i either go codex straight up and own early then go inot support late and hope my pub team carrys otherwise i go

max whiplash at lvl 7 2 lvls of hold 1 ulti 1 show then the rest is self explanitory.
items
3 nullies (int +6 +3 other stats)
steamboots Str
ripshard
hyperstone(+55 attack speed)
mask of madness
Demonic breastplate
shield breaker
Buriza(not sure of the hion 2.2x crit name)
then either sny or skadi either are good


also if i need the hp i go skadi early as his farm is so good.



a tip. stack the ancients up from early game it is really good once u can go there and farm up 2k really qucikly jsut keep a ward there to make sure it dont get stolen

[YellowJello]

I have absolutely no idea how this hero is balanced in any sort of way.

Insane damage/ridiculous creeping ability/ridiculous control.

Where are the nerfs?

[EEZ]

Does whiplash work on images? If it does wouldn't manta be a decent item.

[Lethe]

It did but after recent patches I don't know if it still does.

Even still, ranged images are easy to kill, and in puppet master's case there is no exception. Remember that currently manta does NOT give +250 hp on completion like it does in Dota.

[EEZ]

that currently manta does NOT give +250 hp on completion like it does in Dota.

wtf? -.-

On a separate note, I read somewhere that orb effects stacK? is this true? o.O

[Lethe]

yep orb effects stack. only deso and skadi will not stack (shieldbreaker and frostwolf skull)

I assume that they manta thing is an oversight and will be fixed soon.

[Ligr]

Great guide, I followed it and mayhem happened. I had 24:1. Yes, yes, pub(noob) game, as I'm just starting HoN. But it showed me just how much potention the PM has.

Thank you for the excellent guide.

[WalrusTusK]

This guide worked for me.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5893/imawesomep.png

[Kitad1]

I still don't understeand what purpose Puppet serves in a game.

The guide makes it seems like he is a functional but inferior disable to other choices, and that his strength is in his farming. However, what should be the main role? Ganker, Carry, pusher?

[sexxyback]

This guide worked for me.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5893/imawesomep.png
Agi steamboots ftw!

[Lethe]

I still don't understeand what purpose Puppet serves in a game.

The guide makes it seems like he is a functional but inferior disable to other choices, and that his strength is in his farming. However, what should be the main role? Ganker, Carry, pusher?

he is...a unique hero. Decent disables, decent nuke (the cd balances it out), decent farming and decent carrying potential. You are right when you say that he does not specialize in anything. Pubs like to play pure dps with him, I like to build kuldra for the real disable asap. Following that I end up building dps the vast majority of the time. Let's face it, with 2 psuedo disables, kuldra, and 150 sec cd nuke, there's not alot of options. So with that being said I consider Puppet Master a Semi-carry.

[Kraivyne]

Thanks for the guide. PM is my favourite hero and I really want to get better with him.

Hopefully your guide will help me accomplish that.

Cheers!

[Whalecore]

whiplash's splash deals 100% of the 200% damage.

Yes it sounds pretty good but the radius is only 200 at all levels so you will be incredibly lucky if you ever hit more then 1 hero with this skill. The use of the splash is essentially restricted to farming.
I got a hat-trick yesterday because 3 of their heroes bunched up. Whiplash proc + crit = lots of damage :D

Love this hero in pub games.

[Whalecore]

Sorry if this has already been answered but is it possible to overkill the puppet on the ulti to deal more dmg than the puppets health?

I love puppet master, my fav hero for sure! :D

[Lethe]

Sorry if this has already been answered but is it possible to overkill the puppet on the ulti to deal more dmg than the puppets health?

I love puppet master, my fav hero for sure! :D

Absolutely. You can bring the puppet to 1 hp, nuke it with codex 5 and all the damage would still transfer over. It's in the tooltip actually.

[dendenmushi]

IMO the disposition of your tutorial is good but your layout is bad, try a smaller font.

[Clyne]

whiplash + doubledamage rune = win. did a 1000 damage hit on a magmus the other day :D

[Gallifrey]

whiplash's splash deals 100% of the 200% damage.

Yes it sounds pretty good but the radius is only 200 at all levels so you will be incredibly lucky if you ever hit more then 1 hero with this skill. The use of the splash is essentially restricted to farming.

a snared Opponent next to his Own Ultimate Puppet will result in a nearly Double Damage Whipslash - it will damage Puppy and AE will damage Hero.

saw Wildsoul die in less then 2 Seconds from 100% cuz of that.

[Nedrapter]

TinyBlkTears can I have some comments on the following build:

-Alchemist Bones
-Steamboots (on str in battles, on agil while farming)
-Totem Of Kuldra
-Nullfire Blade
-Savage Mace
-Daemonic Bp
-If game goes on even more, replace, Alchemist bones with another Savage Mace.

(with the given order)

[thegravity]

Thank you for this interesting guide and discussion that followed.

Ive become pretty comfortable with Arachna, Jeraziah and Glacius. Puppet Master and Demented Shaman are my next two goals.

[tastive]

I noticed the following playing Puppet lately:

When a carry-style melee is on you, you can drop your ult on him then immediately Puppet Show and run past the Voodoo Puppet. When you run the carry PAST the puppet, he'll switch targets to the puppet if he wasn't already attacking it. Hard melee carries will usually instagib themselves.

I had the pleasure of watching a Madman just blow himself up (literally 1-2 seconds from ult to death) the other day. It's pleasurable to see. :D

Another thing I noticed - not that it happens often, but if you're about to die to just one hero chasing you, even if no other targets are in range, you can Puppet Show him. He'll keep attacking you, but his attacks [for the duration of puppet show] won't reduce your hp below 1. You can pretty freely Puppeteer's Hold him and get away if the cd for it is up/you have mana, or give yourself a few seconds for your teammates to catch up and save you.

[Capricious]

that it happens often, but if you're about to die to just one hero chasing you, even if no other targets are in range, you can Puppet Show him. He'll keep attacking you, but his attacks [for the duration of puppet show] won't reduce your hp below 1. You can pretty freely Puppeteer's Hold him and get away if the cd for it is up/you have mana, or give yourself a few seconds for your teammates to catch up and save you.

Good point.

[Knaselibrak]

Awesome guide. Totally dominated 5 pub games.. Have just played Puppet Master 2 times before those so not much experience on my side. 5/5

[RadialAngel]

great guide :] thanks for this :]

[RogueR]

seriously wtf is Alch Bones

[Mizaru1]

I noticed the following playing Puppet lately:

When a carry-style melee is on you, you can drop your ult on him then immediately Puppet Show and run past the Voodoo Puppet. When you run the carry PAST the puppet, he'll switch targets to the puppet if he wasn't already attacking it. Hard melee carries will usually instagib themselves.

I had the pleasure of watching a Madman just blow himself up (literally 1-2 seconds from ult to death) the other day. It's pleasurable to see. :D

Another thing I noticed - not that it happens often, but if you're about to die to just one hero chasing you, even if no other targets are in range, you can Puppet Show him. He'll keep attacking you, but his attacks [for the duration of puppet show] won't reduce your hp below 1. You can pretty freely Puppeteer's Hold him and get away if the cd for it is up/you have mana, or give yourself a few seconds for your teammates to catch up and save you.


This means puppetshow + homecoming stone is a good way to avoid a single enemy.

[Servitor]

Absolutely. You can bring the puppet to 1 hp, nuke it with codex 5 and all the damage would still transfer over. It's in the tooltip actually. O.0 You can use spells on it? I learned something cool.

Btw, when, for some idiotic reason, you re soloing mid. Illusion rune + Pshow = Instadeath for the weak squishy int that's dueling you. Your illusions share your whiplash. :p Much win.


seriously wtf is Alch Bones
I think it's under initiation. It looks like a hand. It gives you +30 Attack speed (O_O OMFG) and it's active is a targeted transmute spell that kills the target creep for 300% gold. (I.E. Gold gained X3) Very, very awesome early game item for puppet. Just don't play easymode.

[Sc_0pe]

Well hi to author, I rememeber you from dotaportal, we had a nice discussion at the time Invoker was introduced and you wrote a guide for him, back then if you remember I was Sc0peD. Keep up the good work, nice guide, good player!

[Lethe]

lol i never wrote a guide to invoker.

[V0ldemort1]

Would you change anything in this build? Such as the order that I build the items? Btw these are just core items ill still get regen/tp stuff.

1) Enhanced Marchers- For chasing/escaping. Maybe I should use steamboots instead for str+armor but I like the small boost, could save me.

2) Elder Parasite - I tried this and the huge burst of ias is really useful for taking down towers or killing, and the life steal is a bonus. can heal you quickly.

3) Shieldbreaker -Cheap damage / -shield

4) Hellflower - For the big damage boost as well as ias boost

5) Totem of Kuldra - For the damage+health boost and mainly the disable. Considering getting this before Hellflower.

Unsure: Restoration stone good for PM? The ult is almost a guaranteed kill most of the time...so would 2 ults / 40 dmg / 5 hp regen / mana regen be worth the 5,000 gold? If so, when would you get this?

If the other team is mostly melee I get puppet hold first. If they are nukers/blinkers/disablers I get puppet show first.


By the way, the guide is awesome :)

[dumblydore]

Would Geometer's Bane be a good item on Puppet master? Apparently the illusions make the whiplash counter go down...resulting in more frequent whiplashes.

[`M`ao]

Solid guide.
interesting pub build.
Got some new facts off here.

Bump!

[Thade]

Love this guide. Made Puppet Master one of my favorites to play.

[SutekiCrazy]

nice guide ;)

[Run_Faster]

Btw, could som1 plz tell me how well the new hellflower works with puppet. I was aware the last 1 (old hellflower) gave him the ability to 2 shot tanks (if used correctly) but how well does the new hellflower work with him?

[Lethe]

? it hasn't changed irrc.

[Run_Faster]

? it hasn't changed irrc.

Hellflower has changed. It use to be a silence with a debuff that made the target receive a % increase from spells (cant remember exact figure). Now its changed to basically a weaker version of vodoo's curse.

[Jager]

Needs a Portal Key or Shroud Imo for survivability/ganking.

[Lethe]

Hellflower has changed. It use to be a silence with a debuff that made the target receive a % increase from spells (cant remember exact figure). Now its changed to basically a weaker version of vodoo's curse.

no it has always been this way (referring to the latter).

And yea portal key/shroud is a possibility, it depends on how the game is going.

[Lethe]

updated to match the recent patches, enjoy.

[Sirschmoopy1]

it doesn't take a genious to figure out the lasting longer so that you can dps=good.


spelling genius wrong when calling others stupid doesn't make you look to good, but besides that it was an excellently made guide, bravo to you. :D

[Avius1]

Excellent guide, I just used the pubstomper build and destroyed everyone. Cheers to you!

[iareownage]

hey great guide but the recent patch means that if you stop attacking for 12 seconds you will get a charge removed every 5 seconds or something, didn't see that in there but aside from that good guide.

[audr3y]

Ok guide, helped me out when i JUST started playing HoN, however, i have a great deal of trouble justifying ur build. Bones = yes, and then that's it. Prolly. Did u ever consider getting charged hammer? And, odd as it may seem, codex? The charged hammer is a no brainer (attack speed+chainlighting with ulti = epic), but with codex i instagib my puppet and then have 3 additional seconds to smack a held player. Anyway, items are subjektiv ofc, but i would love if u considered this/tested it in pubs. Again, would like proper justification for ur buils (other than GIEF ATTACKSPEED).

[sHoWTiMe]

Yeah I agree with getting a charged hammer. I was playing vs a puppet, I was arachna. And he one shotted me, I still don't know how that happened but I think the charged hammer got activated on his ultimate...

[Ghop]

I loved this build, funnily enough, despite your comment about being incredibly lucky to hit 2 heros with whiplash, I managed to pull off a tripple double kill with one whiplash on a creep.

<3 puppetmaster

[audr3y]

I actually forgot something - the mantastyle equivilant (can't remember the name right now) giefs you two extra whiplashed at an ok amount of damage; i tested it out and it's bloody sick.. however, this item is pretty expensive compared to the effect of it, but it's still rly, rly, rly good on him. In a 5v5 situation u are rly smacking out some heavy aoe dps.

Ok guide, helped me out when i JUST started playing HoN, however, i have a great deal of trouble justifying ur build. Bones = yes, and then that's it. Prolly. Did u ever consider getting charged hammer? And, odd as it may seem, codex? The charged hammer is a no brainer (attack speed+chainlighting with ulti = epic), but with codex i instagib my puppet and then have 3 additional seconds to smack a held player. Anyway, items are subjektiv ofc, but i would love if u considered this/tested it in pubs. Again, would like proper justification for ur buils (other than GIEF ATTACKSPEED).
Charged Hammer is a foolish choice. Whiplash increases your TOTAL damage when it goes off, meaning it doesn't synergize with Charged Hammer in any way. It's nice that it CAN hit your ult in SOME circumstances, but those situations will be few.

[Lethe]

spelling genius wrong when calling others stupid doesn't make you look to good, but besides that it was an excellently made guide, bravo to you. :D

o.0 haha thx for the typo.

Dunno where I was calling anyone stupid but whatever.

Codex is not a cost efficient item on PM, he isn't really a nuker since his ult has 150 sec cd. Charged Hammer is unnecessary, as PM as a fine farmer anyway and charged hammer does not do significant dps for what you pay for it.

Basically pub dps build -> alch bones, either boots, shieldbreaker, daemonic breastplate, flayer (the triple dps build)

Higher build -> either boots, kuldra, Shamans headdress/shrunken head, harkon's blade.

There are alternatives though, these aren't absolute builds, but you still have to justify why you might or might not get a certain item. As an example I already demonstrated why codex and charged hammer aren't too hot on PM.

[Jucc]

Bravo, well done Tiny =)

[Madlobster]

Nice guide, learned alot about Puppet Master.
Thanks

I like.

[Nigma]

Linked to this guide in my video guide. Hope you don't mind.

[Lethe]

Linked to this guide in my video guide. Hope you don't mind.

nah man be my guest.

Nice vids btw, keep up the good work.

[Griddler]

Been playing puppet a lot since patch and have some comments/questions:

Skills:
- Make sure lanemate understands you only have 1 disable until level 4, and if he really wants to gank at 3 wait until level 4 for rank 2 whiplash and get your 2 disables.

- Where does voodoo puppet sit in priority list to attack for a puppet showed enemy? i.e. he will hit the puppet before he will hit me, whill he select the puppet ahead of creeps?

- Does voodoo puppet work on a char who stealths while under its effect? (I can still hit the puppet I've just never killed anyone yet after they stealth, could be bad luck)

- Will puppet master automatically attack voodoo puppet after casting it or do I have to manually click it? (I always click but in 1 game team said i dont have to - could be because it will always be the closest to me?)

- Targeting strong enemies with puppet show can actually dish out some very nice damage. I nailed a ultimated-elderparasited hammerstorm who brought his madman ally down to like 15% in the few seconds it was on him.

Items:

Okay this is where I've been experimenting since reading this guide and the comments. I used to go steamboots-str and 2x fort bracers followed by shieldbreaker and then if game drags a demonic breastplate. After reading this guide I've been going alch bones - elder parasite - phase boots - shieldbreaker which makes for dps hilarity, but has the glass cannon effect. Popping parasite then getting stunned means dead in 2-3 hits which is not cool.

What would be the best compromise in these items? 2x bracers seems like the obvious solution to the glass cannon issue but when should i put them together? I'm rushing the bones, and once I've got them I want parasite asap to allow me to jungle a bit (speed + lifegain) when I go to use them, and I can't delay boots much longer at that point...

slots then look like this:
2x fort bracer
1x elder para
1x boots
1x shieldbreaker
X homecoming stones

Then I guess if I pull together a totem or breastplate I sell a bracer

Should puppet ever get shrunken head? I was thinkin it gives some stats/str and will keep me from getting stunned at least when I pop parasite?

[Lethe]

Been playing puppet a lot since patch and have some comments/questions:

Skills:
- Make sure lanemate understands you only have 1 disable until level 4, and if he really wants to gank at 3 wait until level 4 for rank 2 whiplash and get your 2 disables.

- Where does voodoo puppet sit in priority list to attack for a puppet showed enemy? i.e. he will hit the puppet before he will hit me, whill he select the puppet ahead of creeps?

- Does voodoo puppet work on a char who stealths while under its effect? (I can still hit the puppet I've just never killed anyone yet after they stealth, could be bad luck)

- Will puppet master automatically attack voodoo puppet after casting it or do I have to manually click it? (I always click but in 1 game team said i dont have to - could be because it will always be the closest to me?)

- Targeting strong enemies with puppet show can actually dish out some very nice damage. I nailed a ultimated-elderparasited hammerstorm who brought his madman ally down to like 15% in the few seconds it was on him.

Items:

Okay this is where I've been experimenting since reading this guide and the comments. I used to go steamboots-str and 2x fort bracers followed by shieldbreaker and then if game drags a demonic breastplate. After reading this guide I've been going alch bones - elder parasite - phase boots - shieldbreaker which makes for dps hilarity, but has the glass cannon effect. Popping parasite then getting stunned means dead in 2-3 hits which is not cool.

What would be the best compromise in these items? 2x bracers seems like the obvious solution to the glass cannon issue but when should i put them together? I'm rushing the bones, and once I've got them I want parasite asap to allow me to jungle a bit (speed + lifegain) when I go to use them, and I can't delay boots much longer at that point...

slots then look like this:
2x fort bracer
1x elder para
1x boots
1x shieldbreaker
X homecoming stones

Then I guess if I pull together a totem or breastplate I sell a bracer

Should puppet ever get shrunken head? I was thinkin it gives some stats/str and will keep me from getting stunned at least when I pop parasite?

Voodoo puppet has creep priority for a hero affected by show. Hero priority is first, and if there are no allied heroes around, he will attack the puppet if there are no close allied creeps.

voodoo puppet works through invis. Blame bad luck.

Voodoo puppet will register as an enemy, as such you will automatically attack it if it is the closest thing to you. You should try to cancel out the long animation though by attacking the puppet as soon as you cast your ult.

If you want to use that build I would personally recommend that you delay parasite in favor of alch bones, bracers, and boots in that order. Alch bones rush is already a huge risk that has huge potential gain, but you have to make up for your immediate weaknesses that come about by rushing alch bones ASAP.

If you play him to dps carry shrunken head is practically a requirement. If you aren't being focused its fine to skip, but most of the time the other team is not going to let you hammer away at them with 600 range attack.

[Draken1]

not bad, talking more about harkons would be nice, since its so OP.

[TheLastOpus]

great guide just an FYI if u want to fix u have the prices switched for steamboots and enhanced marchers. It's 1490 for steam, 1500 for enhanced

I've played exactly one game with Puppet Master (starting by reading this guide at hero selection screen after randoming him!), so my experiences and thoughts mean very little. But I was extremely surprised by how ridiculous my damage was once I got Shieldbreaker. It felt to me like I was much more effective by eschewing spells entirely, and just auto-attacking everyone to death in team fights/ganks. Is my experience consistent with reality, or is this just a case of me not using my spells to their fullest due to my n00b-factor?


"The 0.1.48 patch means you can go into a fight knowing that your first attack will hurt."

Having a semi-guaranteed whiplash on initiation due to the new automatic countdown mechanic would seem to boost the desirability of Assassin's Shroud: You'll get an almost guaranteed +125 bonus to the whiplash AoE coming out of invis.... not to mention a bit of gank protection/escape mechanism, and a little move speed bonus. It seems like you would pretty much auto-cast this as you move between each and every creep wave / neutral camp / gank / team fight.


"talking more about harkons would be nice"

Harkon's seems like a bit of a waste since it has not-particularly-needed mana regen. But, on the other hand, since I'm reading that it consumes mana with every attack, I guess in a roundabout way, this gives you a use for your copious mana? There is also sort of an implication that it must have a higher resultant DPS, if the game designers felt is necessary to charge a mana cost associated with its usage.

I'm a bit confused as to how Harkon's would inter-operates with whiplash, since the latter is physical. But on thinking about it, I guess this is just a red herring, and there's not actually any particular dis-synergy there? In other words, all that matters is how much you end up hitting the initial target for - whether it be puncturing magic armor with Harkon's, puncturing regular armor with Sheildbreaker, or raw damage with Rift Shards is irrelevant, what gets reflected is the end result damage amount, and thus all that really matters is the eventual DPS. (That said, if you do go Harkon's, Daemonic Breastplate becomes decidedly non-synergistic.) Howe much mana does Harkon's drain on each attack, anyway?

I would really love it if someone could tell me how to decide between Sheildbreaker/Harkon's/Rift Shards! They all seems to fulfill the exact same role with upsides/downsides that I have no way of really effectively comparing. I hate just guessing; I want numbers! How do I know which weapon has the highest DPS?

Does the Shieldbreaker debuff apply before the damage for the first hit is calculated, or only start working on the second hit? What armor do creeps have?

The one weapon item that really stands decidedly apart from the above pack is Hellflower, because it comes with a free built-in disable mechanism and 30 attack speed boost. Except those effects are probably not truly "free" -- I have to think I'm paying for that 225% mana regen and INT, one way or another. Is losing the -6 armor for Shieldbreaker versus the 30 atk speed for Hellflower a fair trade, or a terrible deal? I don't know the game mechanics well enough to answer.

[KainTheReape]

riftshards and sheild breaker complement each other especially if you start a fight at 2 in which case you break their armor then deal a ton of damage

I only play pubs. I have seen some puppet master players that specifically request to go mid, but on the two or three occasions I tried it, I had a great deal of trouble. I can outplay many pub goobers using some other int casters. But with puppet I felt helpless; the same kind of feeling I have when I'm on a two-melee team against a two-ranged team in a side lane. It's like none of my spells do anything during the laning phase in a 1v1 situation. Even if I'm wining the last hit/deny war, the opponent is free to walk up, nuke me, walk back, as often as his bottle allows. Eventually this leads to me abandoning some XP/denies/lasthits to facilitate survival.

Do you have any advice for the situation where I am forced to solo mid because my facepalm-o-rific teammates pick entirely heros not up-to-task?

[Magil]

I only play pubs. I have seen some puppet master players that specifically request to go mid, but on the two or three occasions I tried it, I had a great deal of trouble. I can outplay many pub goobers using some other int casters. But with puppet I felt helpless; the same kind of feeling I have when I'm on a two-melee team against a two-ranged team in a side lane. It's like none of my spells do anything during the laning phase in a 1v1 situation. Even if I'm wining the last hit/deny war, the opponent is free to walk up, nuke me, walk back, as often as his bottle allows. Eventually this leads to me abandoning some XP/denies/lasthits to facilitate survival.

Do you have any advice for the situation where I am forced to solo mid because my facepalm-o-rific teammates pick entirely heros not up-to-task?

The only things I could think of to help in that situation would be to make sure you use a courier to bring you things like health boosters and an early bottle, then do the best you can to win the war over rune control (or have your allies grab the runes for ganks, or gank mid, etc.).

[akitoes]

I only play pubs. I have seen some puppet master players that specifically request to go mid, but on the two or three occasions I tried it, I had a great deal of trouble. I can outplay many pub goobers using some other int casters
I'm quoting just so you realize what you said.




Anyway Puppet is a **** solo mid, so if you're laning against anyone decent you're ****ed.
If he's a bad player/has a bad hero too (80% of the times), you play safe, get the lasthits and do your thing

[jay`t]

I can outplay many pub goobers using some other int casters. But with puppet I felt helpless;


here's the dig: puppet mid blows, and puppet on the side lane has some serious fb potential

[jobeeEZy25]

When do we get harckon's blade?

[ForTheSwarm]

If they run up to you, puppet show them, nail them a couple of times, then run back.

[Fr0stN0va]

Quick question me and my friend are having a debate regarding if the overkill damage the puppet takes is also transfered to the hostile hero?


i.e. the puppet has 950 HP and if I somehow manage a 1K crit does the damage cap at 950*210%? or 1K*210%?

[lutzz]

Quick question me and my friend are having a debate regarding if the overkill damage the puppet takes is also transfered to the hostile hero?


i.e. the puppet has 950 HP and if I somehow manage a 1K crit does the damage cap at 950*210%? or 1K*210%?

1k*210%

[Bullbaz]

Don't know if it's been mentioned but I usually rush Hold / Whiplash with focus on the hold, at least when I'm going solo mid. Waiting until they get close enough and pop a hold + ulti so that your tower can dps the voodoo doll = Bye bye

[Lethe]

K first of all I have to mention this guide needs some work. Things have changed over a few versions and puppet master is now clearly a carry hero with disable potential, nuff said. I'm busy with other stuff, but I will be revamping this guide within the next 2 weeks or so to reflect how puppet master should be played. For now take my guide with a grain of salt, but take my word that I will get around to it.

Also I'm aware my Elec guide needs updating too, yes I will get around to that to.

[Meetshield]

I have a delima, I have a much much better build on puppet than this, and my puppet is a carry. But If I post it, I'm afraid I'll start having to fight against it. How do you guys ever post guides...

I do want to argue that puppet is a good lane hero. He can range harass, escape 1 or 2 chasers, and ever 5 attacks he gets a free mini nuke on a hero if he needs to keep them at bay. I realize that I am mostly speaking from pub experience so your results may vary as they say.

I would certainly not say that puppet is destroyed mid vs bottling nukers. Those nukers are also glass cannons and if you see them leave for a rune location just head to the other one, 50% chance you deny their bottle and since puppet doesn't need the regen he will win that matchup over time, unless very unlucky.

To start boots of speed for running in and whiplash running out, max whiplash first push attack speed, and get a few runes to start the game. Not hard.

[JoeMartin]

I guarantee you there's no build you're running that everyone else doesn't already know about.

[sr8]

I guarantee you there's no build you're running that everyone else doesn't already know about.

So that means I shouldn't revamp my guide? I wrote this guide in july u know.

Guides are meant for new players, and new players are going to need help with puppet master as he is not an easy hero.

Thanks for your concern, you can go away now.

[JoeMartin]

So that means I shouldn't revamp my guide? I wrote this guide in july u know.

Guides are meant for new players, and new players are going to need help with puppet master as he is not an easy hero.

Thanks for your concern, you can go away now.


What? My comment was in response to:


I have a delima, I have a much much better build on puppet than this, and my puppet is a carry. But If I post it, I'm afraid I'll start having to fight against it. How do you guys ever post guides...

But thanks for your concern.

[Doubles]

What about elder parasite for puppet? The other day I was messing around in a pub. I managed to get an early blood lust and a lot of last hits etc. My first trip to buy I finished of my bracer bought marchers and decided to go with elder for shitsngigglez. Later in the game I had the 2 pieces for shield breaker. When I went to gank I was doing crazy dmg to enemies when activating elder. Not to mention it helps you to farm really fast. The game ended b4 I could get demonic. You should give it a try sometime and let me know what you think. Great guide btw

[Nopattern]

i used to run an elder parasite build, but the damage you take was affecting my game too much. I switched to a whisper/geometer buid and im much more successful. Maybe ill try it again, ive gotten better since that time.

[Lethe]

Guide has been updated.

[ForTheSwarm]

Removes one charge every 12/8/10/6 seconds when not attacking.

I think you flipped some numbers around. ;)

[_Redeye]

Really nice guide.

If faming well early would alch bones be an option ?

or just rush the helm from side shops ?

I think its best not to pick a skill at first. If FB is an option or you need to save someone in rune fight pick hold.. if not pick whiplash for lvl 1 harassment. Just a thought.


Wish the replay section was working so I could watch those replays.

Hopefully theyll have that up soon =)

[Blazeinferno]

2 questions, at what level do you start fighting the ancients and if you don't stack ancients, wouldn't Elder Parasite be better due to IAS bonus which substantially benefits whiplash?

[Nopattern]

i think alchemist bones is good for heroes with shitty farm capabilities and Puppet isn't one of them.

yea elder parasites is double edges maybe elder + barbed armor works well?

[sr8]

eldar parasite is essentially suicide on puppet master. Rly risky.

My old build "pub" build had alch bones in it when he was weaker, but since then, PM has been defined as a ricing hard carry and is much stronger, and there is no real good reason to get alch bones on him anymore.

[Cow]

I luv that you update the guide! There are premium guides wich are VERY outdated. Keep up the good work!

[tzenes1]

Its not that I believe puppet is a bad carry (just the opposite his great ricing abilities make him a great carry), the problem I have with your build is the following:
I just got out of an AR game with the following on my team:
Magebane
Nighthound
Chronos
Puppet
Demented (me)

As DS I have 1 stun and some dr and heal. The puppet master on my team went a pure dps build loosely based on your guide (IB1) and got as far as half way through the breastplate before we were stomped.

The issue I have is not that puppet can't make a good carry, its that sometimes he shouldn't. If you're in a team fully of agi carries, building a 4th carry isn't going to help the team as building a disabler (sheep, hellflower, etc); and while you do have those items in your guide, I feel like the impression most new players get from you guide is: build another agi carry... who happens to be int...

[KillerBeeNL]

very nice guide, will try this tonight maybe i will play better this time :D

[frenzy_one]

I have to disagree getting Whispering helm. Elder parasite does much more synergy with your spells. Getting whispering helm might give you better farm but it also requires you to spend more gold for the same efficiency so it?s just not worth it.

[tastive]

Its not that I believe puppet is a bad carry (just the opposite his great ricing abilities make him a great carry), the problem I have with your build is the following:
I just got out of an AR game with the following on my team:
Magebane
Nighthound
Chronos
Puppet
Demented (me)

As DS I have 1 stun and some dr and heal. The puppet master on my team went a pure dps build loosely based on your guide (IB1) and got as far as half way through the breastplate before we were stomped.

The issue I have is not that puppet can't make a good carry, its that sometimes he shouldn't. If you're in a team fully of agi carries, building a 4th carry isn't going to help the team as building a disabler (sheep, hellflower, etc); and while you do have those items in your guide, I feel like the impression most new players get from you guide is: build another agi carry... who happens to be int...

You had four carries. What did you expect?

[iEmTii]

wow nice :D

[Stickyrolls]

To bad the replay links are not replays. Just match stats.

[sr8]

replays aren't up yet when they are you will be able to dl from those links.

[Stickyrolls]

Nice! Didn't know could watch replays of games before the replay system.

[Vim]

http://cs10013.vkontakte.ru/u237486/97088112/x_da65c3de.jpg

[Tbake]

Is going 2 x bracers not a good idea for early core?
I generally go
2x crowns/ 1 hp pot/ 1 set runes
Steam boots
>Finish 2 x bracers
Whispering Helm
Shield Breaker

So is/when is getting 2x bracers acceptable?

[sr8]

with steamboots that should be enough str combined with pm's str gain and initial str. If not then get 2 bracers before whispering helm.

[Exceptionz]

now to wait till replays come out :(

[AequitaZ]

Nice guide, probably perfect skill build (I do that too) but I prefer Assassins Shroud rush, because in early game you don't have much damage anyway and Assassins is nice for ganging/surviving and the more you gang and survive the faster you'll have Deso and Lifesteal

[Cryptic]

Hrm, I've had a lot of xp w/ PM and I can't say that I follow the same item or skill build as your guide suggests. I find the range on puppeteer's hold is pathetic at best, making it a poor choice for early game disable.

Any competent player runs from PM + xxx because of outstanding disable and pretty high damage, and unless you're coming out of the forest RIGHT on top of them, the 400 range is essentially giving them a free ride home, better yet is taking at least one level in Puppeteer's show to give you enough time to run up and cast Hold on them, although I have - on more than one occasion - skipped hold altogether in the early game, favoring to harass when I know Puppeteer's show will keep them there.

I use a completely different item build than your guide's, but that is more personal preference than anything.

[Tbake]

Hrm, I've had a lot of xp w/ PM and I can't say that I follow the same item or skill build as your guide suggests. I find the range on puppeteer's hold is pathetic at best, making it a poor choice for early game disable.

Any competent player runs from PM + xxx because of outstanding disable and pretty high damage, and unless you're coming out of the forest RIGHT on top of them, the 400 range is essentially giving them a free ride home, better yet is taking at least one level in Puppeteer's show to give you enough time to run up and cast Hold on them, although I have - on more than one occasion - skipped hold altogether in the early game, favoring to harass when I know Puppeteer's show will keep them there.

I use a completely different item build than your guide's, but that is more personal preference than anything.

You are supposed to lvl Show early, and not get hold until lvl about 7
I generaly go show/crit/show/crit/show/ulti/hold

[TheBusDriver]

What does everyone think of Codex on Puppet?

[Magil]

Hrm, I've had a lot of xp w/ PM and I can't say that I follow the same item or skill build as your guide suggests. I find the range on puppeteer's hold is pathetic at best, making it a poor choice for early game disable.

If you have both Hold AND Show you can lead with Show, then close the gap and Hold when Show is about to wear off. It's a much longer disable than simply putting more points in Show.

Since Puppet's very early game damage isn't so hot, this is great for pinning someone down while your lane partner beats on them. And it's not terribly mana-intensive. So I'd say grabbing at least one rank in Hold early (level 2 or 4, depending) is certainly a good choice.

[Tbake]

What does everyone think of Codex on Puppet?

Its not what you should be aiming for. You have 2x hold/Ulti that flow well with dps. Going codex is an item not meant for holding, and as such their is no reason for this item.

Codex wont scale late game, and Puppet is a good carrry

[BiG_i]

Riftshards.

[akitoes]

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/player_stats.php?aid=699935

I noticed angrytestie often got Riftshards ?
Is it still good after the critstack nerf ?

[sr8]

Riftshards was ok before the nerf, now its completely unnecessary and there is almost always something you should get instead.

[Verith]

I just started trying out the things I read in this guide, including the ancient stacking and the item build. Before reading this I had been going elder parasite and then thunderclaw (these are pretty low level pub games), and since I've been trying out both the first and second item builds.

The thing is that while I'm farming faster due to the ancient stacking, I find that I don't win games nearly as often. Most of the fights I only really manage to get one or two whiplash attacks off (until I get my bkb at least), and while I've noticed that desolator makes them do HUGE damage, I was getting much more whiplashes off with elder parasite and destroying the enemy team.

I understand that in higher level games this build would definitely be better, but I'm just wondering if anybody has noticed that the item build just doesn't seem to cut it in bad pubs where you need to destroy the other team? Or am I just doing something wrong?

Also out of curiosity what levels of gold/min are people seeing with puppet master and ancient stacking in a game where they don't dominate in kills (preferably losing games)?

[SandroPDa3mn]

Hmm. I used to go boots-lifesteal on him, till i got into discussion with a 1800+ clan, ( tbh i forghot the name). Only one guy was talkin to me, but the others all agreed one one thing: they use HotBL to stack creepcamps, and they do not get lifesteal till much later. As in boots, vanguard, shieldbreaker, shrunken, sheepstick, lifesteal.

They loled at me when i said he doesnt need the 300 extra hp and lifresteal is just fine.. So what is ur opinion on that, pls enlighten me as i own with both builds in pubs of my lvl (max 1750 mostly just 1550+)..

Tnx

[Lethe]

That doesn't even make sense. With whispering helm I can stack ancients while doing something completely unrelated across the map. Let me let you in on a little secret, hotbl is only good when it is quite literally rushed as a first item, otherwise it is a waste of gold.

Done properly it does not take long to farm steamboots shieldbreaker shrunken head whispering helm and a bracer or two. Like 30 mins. If people are having issues surviving with puppet master, such that they spend 2k gold on hotbl on him, I have to wonder how they fare with other int heroes that are far, far easier to kill then puppet master.

Long story short, hotbl on pm = no.

[Alamandaros]

Is there a limit to how many Ancient Creeps you should be stacking prior to trying to kill them?

Just played a game earlier where I had maybe 4 stacks (pre-shieldbreaker) and it seemed like it took forever and then some to kill them, using the kiting method).

[Lethe]

Is there a limit to how many Ancient Creeps you should be stacking prior to trying to kill them?

Just played a game earlier where I had maybe 4 stacks (pre-shieldbreaker) and it seemed like it took forever and then some to kill them, using the kiting method).

~4 and kite is actually what I typically use its fine I'll address it If I haven't already

[Hi]

Works well. Make sure u creep stack right :P

[Le0n2]

Thanks, extremely informative guide and has won me a few games now :)

[sidsavierre]

is now riftshard still viable with puppet master?

[Lethe]

is now riftshard still viable with puppet master?

almost never. Puppet Master's dps is actually average all things considered, the only time you should ever go crit is if your dps is through the roof. Through the roof= a tDL with runed axe+ crit+ zeal+ dark blades or a madman with runed axe savage mace or a hammerstorm with heart insanitarius EP shrunken head.

Now puppet master farms extremely well and usually fares better then the above heroes. In any case, there are almost always better items then riftshards, but if you insist on taking them, as a 5th or last item plz.

[Meat_Puppet]

Some folks have brought it up before, but I don't think anyone really directly addressed it: what about elder parasite?

I know, squishy hero + 30% more dmg = suicude, but what about paring it w/ Barbed Armor? I did this for a few games today, and it worked out beautifully. With Shrunken Head and/or Shroud, it seems Parasite can really shine.

Thoughts?

[Padawanabee]

Ehh, Whispering Helm is a good item on him, so I rarely bother with the parasite.

Both give life steal, parasite gives you crazy atack speed but you receive 30% more damage, while Helm gives you a creep you can stack with in addition to armor and damage.

Edited for a typo, I'm like that.

[Lethe]

It's decent but creep stacking is just way too important on puppet master not to be used. I don't think it is ideal...why not go warpcleft barbed armor etc i just think it's impractical on a hero that HAS to carry the game. The builds I listed are imo a safer bet, but it's just a guideline, based on the enemy lineup you should adapt.

[Blizzinam]

Here's some details concering teamkilling during puppet show you may find interesting. All this is tested by me in practice mode.

Sand Wraith's Deserted will teamkill and so will predator's carnivorous. Puppet's whiplash will not. Magebane's manaburn will not. Vindicator's orb will not trigger, nor will any form of skill based bash (brutalizer wont kill them either). Lightning will procc but bounce onto "real" enemies without killing your mate. Savage mace will kill your mates! Oh, and if your teammate triggers blademail while you are beating on him, dont worry, it wont hurt you.

[F3rnseher]

I'm really sorry if this has been adressed earlier, but I wasn't going to read those 11 pages just to give you a little heads up.

His ultimate doesn't work through magic immunity anymore, you should correct that. Other than that, very helpful guide.

[KEENGAMER]

Shroud + Shieldbreaker + Ult = 1.6k damage l2guide

[Lethe]

rofl do you understand the concept of a glass cannon? Much less the concept of an invisible glass cannon?

If it works in your pub smash go for it. There are many items for puppet master that work, I just find that some are more ideal then others. others -> shroud alch bones etc.

[KEENGAMER]

rofl do you understand the concept of a glass cannon? Much less the concept of an invisible glass cannon?

If it works in your pub smash go for it. There are many items for puppet master that work, I just find that some are more ideal then others. others -> shroud alch bones etc.

Dropping their carry on inc then following up with 2 disables is about the best way to play puppet, and why are you talking about glass cannons when one of your suggested builds is 2.8k more for +15 strength and less burst damage

[Lethe]

cause magic immunity and split are both more reliable ways to stay alive then shroud against competent opponents.

My listed core build is steamboots whispering helm isn't it? Everything else I mentioned are items you can mix and match to see what you come up with. Most players aren't dumb enough to not drop a ward of revelation before every fight if the other team has a player with assassin's shroud.

I don't get what is so hard to understand about the concept of retarded players. It's like in MW2 when you call in a pave low in a pub and the other team will die like 2x each before it flies away, while competent players will whip our their stinger if the have it (or switch to class after death) and blow the choppa out of the sky.

The shieldbreaker bkb etc build is the most effecient against skilled opponents, not idiots.

The geo mkb build is the one you use against retarded players to kill them in seconds. I don't need a crutch like shroud to be stealthy and 1v1 their carry.

In any case while the core build is always the same the luxury items will be changing after the upcoming patch, but I will not be updating any of my guides. I can expect most players have enough of a brain to piece together what is still valid and what is outdated.

[KEENGAMER]

cause magic immunity and split are both more reliable ways to stay alive then shroud against competent opponents

Yea, except your illusions get AoE'd away and don't even split you properly like in DotA, so it's obvious which one is you. Great survivability item there.


Most players aren't dumb enough to not drop a ward of revelation before every fight if the other team has a player with assassin's shroud.

Oh no, they'll be able to see you for the one second you're stealthed after you ult.


I don't need a crutch like shroud to be stealthy and 1v1 their carry.

You don't get it for the stealth you get it for the burst damage.....

[Lethe]

What do you not understand about retarded players? You pub smash with stealth, I pub smash with images savage mace.

They'll be able to see you from a mile away because there is a 90% chance in any competitive game that there is a ward of revelation dropped and I can see this puppet master attempting to run up and ulting, so he gets nuked/disabled down and dies. How this is hard to understand I will never know.

Why the hell do you think burst damage is so great? You know I can go codex 5 on deadwood and do like 2k burst damage and yet even in many of the inhouses F8, chu', testie, and shpee play in, NO ONE goes codex on deadwood because burst damage is certainly not the be all end all, especially when it comes to carry heroes. Hmm I wonder why codex isn't used more SUCH A GREAT BURST DMG ITEM RIGHT?

I use the first build most of the time. Difference is I know it will work unless the other team has spells that go through magic immunity, which just means I have to play my cards carefully. I also deal far more damage in the long term because I don't get disabled. Hence why Shrunken head > Shroud. Assassin's shroud is an item that fares extremely poorly in competitive play. I laugh whenever an idiot tries to change that.

You're not going to change my view on this, and I doubt you will change mine. Going to work now bye go express your views on this game in another thread.

[KEENGAMER]

They'll be able to see you from a mile away because there is a 90% chance in any competitive game that there is a ward of revelation dropped and I can see this puppet master attempting to run up and ulting, so he gets nuked/disabled down and dies. How this is hard to understand I will never know.

Honestly.
Ill try to explain this again.
1: TEAM FIGHT HAPPENS
2: You(Puppet) use your ult on whoever needs to die first.
3: AT NO POINT HAVE YOU USED SHROUD AND RAN IN.
4: THEN you use shroud, AFTER you've ult'd
5: You hit the puppet STRAIGHT AFTER you use shroud.
6: Bonus shroud damage + whiplash damage does 1.6k damage to your target.

How this is hard to understand I will never know. Really.

[KEENGAMER]

Why the hell do you think burst damage is so great? You know I can go codex 5 on deadwood and do like 2k burst damage and yet even in many of the inhouses F8, chu', testie, and shpee play in, NO ONE goes codex on deadwood because burst damage is certainly not the be all end all, especially when it comes to carry heroes. Hmm I wonder why codex isn't used more SUCH A GREAT BURST DMG ITEM RIGHT?

because Codex is terrible value for money, however when you have an on demand 2.0 crit and an ult that amplifies your damage by 210% spending 3.4k on an item that has an easy build up and gives you an extra 163 damage to stack on top of all of that is good value for money. This really isn't hard to understand. You're literally just ignoring what i'm saying seeing the word shroud screaming pub stomp. Anyone who needs to read a guide to know how to play a hero is going to playing in pubs. I somehow doubt Loda checked DotA strategy before a tournament for advice on how to play Nevermore. Cheers. Beg you stop being such a moron

TL;DR

Assassins shroud adds 680 damage to your ult+whiplash hit for 3.4k.

That's why you buy it. Not for the stealth.

[Lethe]

So I misunderstood you, nevertheless that still does not change my opinion on anything. Also, these numbers you are pulling, please tell me they are not at level 25 are they? Jking I know they are because I know you would not deal an extra 680 damage at level 11 or even level 16.

I'd rather go shrunken head so i can continue to deal dps after i use voodoo puppet. Iono maybe I'm the only person who worries about disables? O and doesn't voodoo puppet have a 150 second cooldown that is migated by magic immunity? HMM? 3400 Gold wasted on extra burst damage every 150 seconds or more. Holy ****. How you carry anyone is beyond me. I am amazed that you have the brains to analyze that codex is terrible for its cost yet you cannot see how spending 3.4k to deal extra 680 damage (at level 25 mind you) every 150 seconds or more is not. You don't get assassin's shroud for its stealth, you get it for its burst damage every 150+ seconds. ROFL K. Gold may come easy for puppet master but even still there are always better items to get. Whispering helm is core and as far as I'm concerned if you can't ancient stack with puppet master go play another carry. Early damage via shieldbreaker/harkons (in the next patch)/savage mace/hellflower far outdoes what rushing assassin's shroud does.

Why people focus on ONE aspect of a hero when there is so much about the hero is beyond me. Puppet Master is not about destroying a hero every 150+ seconds, even though he certainly is capable of doing that. Puppet Master is about ricing creeps like there is no tomorrow, stacking ancients and blowing them apart, farming 500 creeps/hr np, and blowing apart the other team with nothing short of brute force, assisted by his spells which can be quite lethal.

Go teach Testie or 'dodo how to play puppet master. Honestly. You clearly have more knowledge of this hero then all of us combined.

As far as "pub stomps" go my point is just that I sure as hell don't need assassin's shroud to pub stomp. I can just go savage mace geo and watch every enemy I focus die in 2-3 seconds. Rather then burst one opponent and then be extremely vulnerable for the rest of the fight. What a great strat. Shouldn't even work in pubs.

Funny you mention Loda. Have you ever played with him? I have played several games with and against him in IHCS.

I invite you to play with bei/shpee/myself/f8/testie/speedohdk and some others in an ih one of these days. You're pretty high rated so you should be good. So you can prove to me just how useful this burst damage of assassin's shroud on puppet master is.

Unless of course you've never actually tried using shroud against skilled opponents? Oh dear what a problem. Guides may be meant for pubs and beginners but pub-stomping via a retarded build is certainly not helpful.

[whodeyis]

Honestly.
Ill try to explain this again.
1: TEAM FIGHT HAPPENS
2: You(Puppet) use your ult on whoever needs to die first.
3: AT NO POINT HAVE YOU USED SHROUD AND RAN IN.
4: THEN you use shroud, AFTER you've ult'd
5: You hit the puppet STRAIGHT AFTER you use shroud.
6: Bonus shroud damage + whiplash damage does 1.6k damage to your target.

How this is hard to understand I will never know. Really.

And the other team just stands there and lets you attack your ult I assume. No one cares how you pubstomp.

[KEENGAMER]

Interesting to see TibyBlackTears having the same argument with this Keengamer guy as I.....

Except the argument with you was

H: Shieldbreaker Shroud doesn't do 1.6k damage
K: Yes it does
H: No it doesnt
K: Test it
H: I did it doesn't do that much damage
K: Test it properly
H: Oh ok it does alot of damage but not 1.6k
K: It does 1.6K.
H: Oh it does do 1.6K
H: But it only does 1.8K if you puppet near the hero and cleave
K: That's because you arn't hitting the puppet

[Lethe]

The reason it took me so long to figure out how how u use assassin's shroud on puppet master is a) because as a former highly competitive player I am very, very biased against shroud and b) The idea of how you used it as you described crossed my mind, but it is so impractical for anything other then burst damage that I just discarded it. You actually think dealing 1k+ dmg instantly and then being vulnerable for the rest of the fight until you farm shrunken head is a good idea? If I were to ever use assassin's shroud I would probably end up just using it to break focus on me if I had the chance in a teamfight.

Savage mace+ geo pretty much crushes any hero you focus in 2-3 seconds. Like I said it is my pub bash build of choice though if the opponents show some form of competence I will switch to my first build. In fact you know savage mace+ geo is the strongest build on Chronos atm and Chronos is one of the easier carry heroes to kill while under focus fire even with rewind. Puppet Master doesn't have rewind, but he has 2 disables and 600 range. Hmm.

You explained to me how shroud puppet master works. If that is your goal, then it is done and you can leave. However saying stuff like "omg shroud+shieldbreaker =1.6k dmg l2guide" is quite offensive, shows immaturity and while it may work against other guide writers, I will not let people get away with it that easily. There have been some scenerios in my other guides where someone has brought up an item which I left out and I agreed with him that the item has potential. And also other times (like this one) where you can bombard me with arguments and I will not change my mind. There are always better items for puppet master then shroud.

Give this a try, the next time you start an argument with someone, be more civil and they will respond in kind. As a former ihcs/na-ihl player I will not take **** from some random player who says "shroud> all l2 guide."

If you have anything further to say, keengamer, pm me. Enough spamming of this thread.

[Lethe]

Error on the post refer to my last post on page 12 for my final comments on this issue.

[KEENGAMER]

So I misunderstood you, nevertheless that still does not change my opinion on anything. Also, these numbers you are pulling, please tell me they are not at level 25 are they? Jking I know they are because I know you would not deal an extra 680 damage at level 11 or even level 16.

Assassins shroud + Level 4 whiplash + Level 3 voodoo puppet.

Being level 25 would make this do more damage how? You could do it at level 1 if you could somehow get those skills at that level

I never said that I don't get shrunken, obviously if they're a stun heavy team and team fights start early ill get an early bkb after my boots/mb alche/helm if no one else can stack then go shield, but i'd probably still get a shroud because the bonus damage for the price is really good, long cooldown or not it lets you put their carry to 10%, or outright one shot him if they don't have anything that goes through shrunken so you can just show, run up to him ult and get him with the whiplash cleave too. I literally just wanted to explain how I use shroud. I'm not trying to claim that it's better than shrunken. I've never played against Loda, though one of my friends who's as good as me beat him in some gather thing, I can't remember how it came about and he's not online to ask. We've also played against FFS twice though they actually destroyed us. I'm obviously not claiming to be some amazing player, I just wanted to explain how I use shroud and I really don't know why it took you so long to get that.



Guides may be meant for pubs and beginners but pub-stomping via a retarded build is certainly not helpful.


Item build 2:
- Savage Mace
- Geometer's Bane

?

[sHoWTiMe]

I agree with TinyBlkTears.

Although I have one question: the only problem i've been having with puppet is that he's very slow, if a fight happens and we're losing and for example one of our team gets killed and we run away, I'm just too slow to escape.

That's why I was trying enhanced marchers and the new hack and slash.
Results were ok I guess but i'm not really an experienced puppet player so perhaps you can help me with this problem.

[Nani`]

Interesting to see TibyBlackTears having the same argument with this Keengamer guy as I.....

[MyShoes]

I used this build myself, and have for a few months - only problem I have with it is that puppet attacks SO slow with it. Just my 2 cents.

[Lethe]

I used this build myself, and have for a few months - only problem I have with it is that puppet attacks SO slow with it. Just my 2 cents.

That's relative. He isn't going to hit as fast as an agi hero but he will still hit damn hard. I build him ias on him later anyways.

[KEENGAMER]

So I misunderstood you, nevertheless that still does not change my opinion on anything. Also, these numbers you are pulling, please tell me they are not at level 25 are they? Jking I know they are because I know you would not deal an extra 680 damage at level 11 or even level 16.

You understand why you're wrong here though right?

[Lethe]

That isn't wrong. You get more damage as you level up due to stat increase. You can test it out for yourself I guarantee you will not be hitting 1.6k at level 16. Assuming of course if that is what you meant.

[Lethe]

I agree with TinyBlkTears.

Although I have one question: the only problem i've been having with puppet is that he's very slow, if a fight happens and we're losing and for example one of our team gets killed and we run away, I'm just too slow to escape.

That's why I was trying enhanced marchers and the new hack and slash.
Results were ok I guess but i'm not really an experienced puppet player so perhaps you can help me with this problem.

The only thing I don't like about enhanced marchers is that it doesn't grant you extra hp. With the str nerfs puppet master isn't the most durable hero so I am willing to sacrifice damage and movespeed for more vitality.

Frostburn is meh. Getting nerfed soon anyway and is really quite a general item even after the remake. Puppet Master is a carry in the traditional sense so I find it unnecessary.

You are talking about escaping teamfights that don't go your way, but if you're that disadvantaged then it won't matter if you do escape, i.e. a madman who escapes a bad fight won't be able to do a 1v3. Despite puppet master having no real escape mechanisms I don't really have that much of a problem surviving with him if things go bad. Juke, use puppet show to prolong your life if possible and puppeteer's hold to buy some time. And he isn't really slow. 300 base movespeed is pretty much average.

[KEENGAMER]

That isn't wrong. You get more damage as you level up due to stat increase. You can test it out for yourself I guarantee you will not be hitting 1.6k at level 16. Assuming of course if that is what you meant.


I know they are because I know you would not deal an extra 680 damage at level 11 or even level 16.



Assassins shroud adds 680 damage to your ult+whiplash


That's what I meant......