Puppet Master

[KEENGAMER]

You said that it wouldn't add 680 at level 16 but it might at 25, im just saying the damage that shroud alone adds, so it doesn't matter what level you are as long as your have the level 3 puppet and whiplash up

[Lethe]

You said that it wouldn't add 680 at level 16 but it might at 25, im just saying the damage that shroud alone adds, so it doesn't matter what level you are as long as your have the level 3 puppet and whiplash up

holy **** no. You do realize that as you level up you get more damage due to stat increase? That since in any case using this combo shroud+whiplash will kill a voodoo puppet instantly with the shroud+ shieldbreaker setup? And that since all damage goes through the puppet regardless of remaining health there will be a difference between this combo at different levels?

I don't even know why I'm trying to explain this to you. This is dota mechanics at the most basic level.

If you are going to reply on this thread again, reply with PROOF that shroud adds a constant 680 dmg to the whiplash+voodoo puppet combo at any level between 16-25. To be honest 680 damage seems skewed it shouldn't even be that high. Even in the most skewed scenerio where the damage is in the lower range in one trail and in the higher range then other trial, since puppet has a damage range of 14 which is really quite diverse.

In fact, let me give some math lessons.

Damage amplifier on level 3 puppet is a pure 2.1x regardless of what the source of damage is. Armor of puppet is 0, when hit by shieldbreaker the amplifier is now 1.31x. PM with shieldbreaker + shroud has a damage range of 258-272 at level 25. Magic reduction we will assume is 25%. Voodoo puppet is inflicted as magic damage. Shroud adds 125 damage on break that can be amplified by whiplash. Puppet Master has an int gain of 2.9/level. Whiplash at level 4 has a multiplier of 2x if it procs.

Using these numbers, prove to me that shroud alone deals 680 damage extra. It doesn't. Also prove to me that levels don't make a difference. They do.

The only way your argument possibly makes sense is if you did one trail where a level 25 puppet master has a shroud + shieldbreaker, and then another trail where the puppet master just had shieldbreaker. Which needless to say is incredibly biased, retarded and is not a practical calculation in any scenerio.

[KEENGAMER]

At level 16 with just a shroud you do 780 damage on your whiplash ult hit, with nothing you do 250. Granted that with just a shroud you only just one hit the puppet so it's not much more damage than just autoattacking it down with no items. However with a SB/Shrunken + Ult hit you do 780 damage. Adding a shroud to that makes it do 1480.


Using these numbers, prove to me that shroud alone deals 680 damage extra. It doesn't. Also prove to me that levels don't make a difference. They do.


Shroud = +38 damage + 125 bonus damage

163 damage

163 * 2(whiplash) = 326

326 * 2.1(Voodoo Pupppet) = 684.6

Admittedly I completely forgot to add in the Magic Armour, which makes it

513.45

When you have a shieldbreaker the number is around 700.

Where have I used his base int in this calculation?

I really don't understand why you think puppet masters base damage would affect how much bonus damage shroud gives him. His base damage could be 1,000. Shroud would give the same damage bonus. It could be 1. Shroud would give the same damage bonus.

[Lethe]

Sigh. I don't know what you are trying to get at, but I have a 3 letter word that will some up my feelings toward this whole subject. Meh. I. Don't. Care. Am I going to run this in a test to see if I get an extra 680 dmg to ult+ whiplash? No, because if I am right, that doesn't change my view on anything, and if I am wrong, I still won't care. In a very short period of time anyway the item build with puppet master will be much more straightfoward with the buff to harkon's.

Like I said, if you want to go shroud, THEN GO SHROUD. Nobody's stopping you.

Edit: If you actually care that much than YOU can run some tests and prove to me that shroud adds 680 dmg to the combo when combined with shroud+ shieldbreaker, where level is not a factor.

[Lethe]

At level 16 with just a shroud you do 780 damage on your whiplash ult hit, with nothing you do 250. Granted that with just a shroud you only just one hit the puppet so it's not much more damage than just autoattacking it down with no items. However with a SB/Shrunken + Ult hit you do 780 damage. Adding a shroud to that makes it do 1480.



Shroud = +38 damage + 125 bonus damage

163 damage

163 * 2(whiplash) = 326

326 * 2.1(Voodoo Pupppet) = 684.6

Admittedly I completely forgot to add in the Magic Armour, which makes it

513.45

When you have a shieldbreaker the number is around 700.

Where have I used his base int in this calculation?

I really don't understand why you think puppet masters base damage would affect how much bonus damage shroud gives him. His base damage could be 1,000. Shroud would give the same damage bonus. It could be 1. Shroud would give the same damage bonus.

Fair enough I think I finally see the discrepancy.

1) The bonus damage applied exclusively from shroud's backstab damage you calculated before did not consider magic reduction.

2) What I meant earlier was that the total damage from the combo (~1.6k or w.e) would not be consistent between level 16 and 25 because while the damage from shroud stays the same, the raw damage gained from level gain does not.

That's that. Like I said earlier I have never liked shroud on puppet master, and with the upcoming patch (24-36 hrs) I will like it even less. I think we've both wasted enough time on this issue, so if you reply again on this thread, do so on another topic of interest.

[Mikdette]

thanks for the guide dude, especially on the creep stacking thing. I definitely appreciated it.

[Ernie888]

Dropping their carry on inc then following up with 2 disables is about the best way to play puppet

Please dont take offence. I'm not a "top player" but with this strategy of using Asn's Shroud for bonus dmg on the ult is interesting and does have a place in some games. But a huge assumption is made that their carry does not have shrunken head. Since you want puppet's ult off immediately to "drop them on inc", It will be at the start of the team fight, usually when carry's will hit their Shrunken.

Naturally im making an assumption (since im not sure) that when puppet puts Ult on Carry, IF carry then uses Shrunken. Am i right to assume that he's immune to the dmg taken from the puppet Ult? but will take dmg from the whiplash splash if close enough.

Anyways i do like shroud on puppet and get it most times. But then again i play in the 1550+ to 1650+ bracket pub games. And generally in the lower brackets ppl aren't team players and no one will buy dust on invis wards :D Each to his own, what works for some doesnt work for others.

[Lethe]

Please dont take offence. I'm not a "top player" but with this strategy of using Asn's Shroud for bonus dmg on the ult is interesting and does have a place in some games. But a huge assumption is made that their carry does not have shrunken head. Since you want puppet's ult off immediately to "drop them on inc", It will be at the start of the team fight, usually when carry's will hit their Shrunken.

Naturally im making an assumption (since im not sure) that when puppet puts Ult on Carry, IF carry then uses Shrunken. Am i right to assume that he's immune to the dmg taken from the puppet Ult? but will take dmg from the whiplash splash if close enough.

Anyways i do like shroud on puppet and get it most times. But then again i play in the 1550+ to 1650+ bracket pub games. And generally in the lower brackets ppl aren't team players and no one will buy dust on invis wards :D Each to his own, what works for some doesnt work for others.

He's immune to the dmg from voodoo puppet. Splash damage is pure and will still apply (assuming the voodoo puppet was the target).

I understand why some people may like shroud, and yes, each to their own. I am more then open to discussion. Keengamer just came into this thread with a terrible attitude "shroud>all on puppet master l2guide" so yea.

[Ernie888]

Yes definitely, a proper discussion / debate rather than a b c is right because stone cold (steve austin) said so. lol - that takes me back 10 years.

Thats the problems with forums, its pretty anonymous unless you choose to make urself known or you become known due to competitive play. Manners is somewhat lacking in this game because everyone can have 10 beta accounts. I guess once people buy the game and have their own single account things improve. Well i've gone way off topic now lol. peace out.

[a_cloth]

Alright Tiny! time to hear your new opinion on builds including harkons :DDDD

[Lethe]

it owns dude. I'll update guide today if possible.

Edit: K I've updated this guide as the recent patch has huge implications on puppet master item build. I am aware that just about all of my other guides are outdated, but the playstyle /item/skill build in those guides has not changed so I am willing to leave them as they are atm. Very minor stuff like using slither's wards to slow down chasers and using glacius ice imprisonment to reduce damage (which in my honest opinion has VERY little implications on practical play) are changes that people can figure out for themselves.

Edit 2: Someone sent me a link to a replay last night but I unknowingly deleted it after my inbox was full. If you are reading this, you know who you are, so you can pm me again. Sry about the inconvenience.

[Lethe]

Puppet Master guide updated! Enjoy.

[hnmAck]

Tnx 4 the update :.)

What do you think about going for some stat points, before fixing the 2 disables?

[Ernie888]

i think the disables even when both at level one are so invaluable that you gotta get them. Often puppet will be solo and being quite squishy early on you will be targeted. Puppet needs no mana to farm so can blow all his mana on both lvl 1 disables to save his life from a gank.

/edit Do you mean "before finishing the 2 disables" ? i think thats what u mean. didnt read it properly at first hehe

[Marmalade]

thanks for the quick update and the new item builds. :pupp:

[Bli]

i still think geometers bane is good. 2 snares gives sick image potential. plus whiplash on images. it's basically a DD rune on command, better than harkons if you ask me.

[Nopattern]

i was using harkons a lot yesterday and its a good item but i prefer my shieldbreaker geo combo

[Drakie]

loving your guild and this hero!

Harkons is pretty damn nice, ofcourse going shieldbreaker/geo if you're up against squishy enemies might be better in that cause but lets leave that discussion to personal preferences :)

I was wondering how easy do most of you guys farm with puppet?
I actually don't farm as fast as you make it sound, but often other ppl ninja the ancients so I miss out on those :( ...

I usually get about 2~3 last hits with puppet when laning solo (newbie pub games so that means that ur often the only (viable) option for mid).
Do you guys really manage to get (almost) all the last hits?

[Lethe]

basically yea. Practice makes perfect.

[Testknight]

I'm very annoyed that it's been 3 days and its stilll giving me that "Check for File" nonsense on the replay...

[Killamonjaro]

21954639

31 minute game with 401 gold per minute non EM. Might not be what you're looking for but there is a replay for you none the less

[Eldest]

I have been using the geometer's + shield breaker build for as long as I can remember, I guess I will try your suggested build out now :)

[TruffleS]

Laning: Puppet is not a strong solo despite what people think, sending him mid solo is a one-way ticket to being crushed by soloes who will surely abuse bottle in much stronger ways then puppet can. These heroes include:

Thunderbringer, Soulstealer, Defliler, Torturer, Pharaoh, Voodoo Jester, Pollywog priest, Moon queen and even Pyromancer. Other heroes that don't need bottle but that can likely outsolo a puppet master anyway include Hellbringer and Blood Hunter.

"So where should we send Puppet Master? Long story short, the side lanes. If he can solo, great, if not, that is fine too. Focus on last hitting over harassing, because harassing is not a good idea when you have pseudo-disables and no nukes. If the enemy is slow to retreat from a creep wave, cast puppeteer's hold or puppet show."

WHAT!? you lose mid vs heroes with no disables and a lot lower base damage? also saying puppet has no nuke, well last hit on his whiplash will at level 3(level 2 whiplash) be dealing dmg close to a level 2 nuke spell, meaning you got a free nuke, better last hit.
Also against bloodhundter i never seem to have a problem, just be insanely aggresive, remember 2 hits from you is the amount he heals at level 1 from a dying creep. also make sure to pull so he cant deny you out early, by level 3 he shouldnt be allowed close to creeps anymore.

Last, dual laning with puppet you SHOULD harass to the max as your base damage is vastly higher and you by level 4(with 2 in whiplash for base dmg) have 5 second disable meaning you and your lane partner should be able to take atleast a half hp hero out.

Item build: well it's situational, but i only get harkons against high armored teams, i.e. they got plague/keeper or got a lot of agi heroes. Also allways shrunken before harkons/sheildbreaker or what ever item you get after whispering helm, because your dmg is incredible anyway.

[Tbake]

What are the initial items bought at the start of the game for
1) sidelanes
2) Middle

And can you give me with curior and w/o curior items.

Thanks

[Lethe]

...I'm not a big fan of listing down initial items. Everyone has their own personal preferences. Some players might get more/less circlets (or w.e the +2 to all stats is called) or minor totems then others, you may want to bring a mana supply against a slither who wards or a thunderbringer, a mix of health regen, etc. Basically as long as you are not buying boots, bottle or like 12 runes of blight from the start you should be fine. Also, don't buy hatchet on puppet, it's not worth its cost.

On a totally unrelated note I was unaware that images carry the properties of harkon's over (the attacks deal magic damage) which means that the damage potential if you can keep your images alive is much stronger then most other image builds on other heroes. Moving geometer's bane to a more suitable spot in my guide.

[Lethe]

Puppet Master guide has gone through some minor updates including a replay. Enjoy!

[`warchild`]

Yes they are... Levels one and two should very well be put into his disables. End of story.
How narrowminded of you! It is never end of story. Whip lash taken instantly in fountain has enough time to count down from 5 to 1 by the time u walk to your lane point. Just wait for your creeps or allied hero to hit a few enemy creeps, auto-attack a creep using your last count on whiplash, boom almost insta-level. (plus this is an extra @130 gold that u can use to buy a manna battery or tp stone). Then i go puppet show then puppet hold then another whiplash. Very unlikely to get a blood lust with one point in hold, unless other team our morons, in that case have fun farming kills all game.:smile: love,
the puppet:pupp:masta

[ToxicMonkey]

Regarding his ulti
"Finally this spell's damage does not go through magic immunity."

"Team fights: Ult either the carry or a caster, this spell goes through magic immunity."

Wut?

Clarify this please.
(I haven't read all the comments, maybe someone has pointed this out already. But it hasn't been changed, so here it is.)

[Nani`]

@warchild: the usual build is "one of the disables-->whiplash-->whiplash....."
simply because of the fact that a disable can potentialy save your life/ your teammates life or get you bloodlust due to a enemy making a mistake or so. I honestly would always take any of his disables over one lvl of whiplash, if i play against some rather skilled guys. Probably doesnt rly matter in your average pub though.

@ToxicMonkey: I think it doesnt go through magic immunity anymore, but it did earlier. He probably jsut forgot to change it.

[`warchild`]

Concerning the Guide:

Something you may want to keep in mind is that the mechanics of Voodoo Puppet implies that the death of the puppet and the total damage that has been dealt are independent. This allows for variations of killing the puppet that makes it a stronger ability than you may imagine it to be, and justifies its 150 second cooldown for being just a "single-target nuke".

There are obviously going to be many low-level variations of the mathcraft I'm about to pull, but lets analyze the maximum potential of that particular mechanical nitpick, which is that the damage dealt and the death of the puppet are independent.

Imagine you cast a Level 3 Voodoo Puppet on a hero. You can choose to deal 949 damage to said Voodoo Puppet however you choose. This amounts to 949 * 2.1 = 1993 raw magical damage. Assuming that target is a hero, this amount becomes 1993 * 0.75 = 1495 net magical damage to that hero, since the basic 5.5 magical armor for heroes confers 24.8% magical reduction.

Now, concerning the Voodoo Puppet that is still alive with 1 health, let us take a Level 5 Codex and attack it for 800 magical damage. The Voodoo Puppet has 5.5 magical armor, reducing the damage to 800 * 0.75 = 600. The Voodoo Puppet amplifies this damage into 600 * 2.1 = 1260 magical damage, and the hero's own 5.5 magical armor reduces this into 1260 * 0.75 = 945 post-reduction damage. The total maximum potential damage dealt by Puppet Master himself is 2440 magical damage, a sizable amount.

If instead the Voodoo Puppet is broken at 1 health with a Staff of the Master Blazing Strike rather than a Level 5 Codex, it will deal 1250 raw magical damage instead of 800 raw magical damage. The math comes out to a potential total of 2972 net post-reduction magical damage to the hero victim.

Even though for ingame scenarios, this maximum potential will not be reached, Voodoo Puppet should still not be overlooked as a "150 seconds cooldown single-target nuke" the same way you would not dismiss a single-target spell with nearly a 3000 burst damage potential.

And of course, the second most important thing you forgot, Voodoo Puppet and the target hero take damage independently. I have killed a Thunderbringer I was soloing against middle lane from full life with a Level 1 Voodoo Puppet. After taking him to half health and the Voodoo Puppet almost expiring, the last attack was a Level 4 Whiplash proc that hit both him and the puppet on the same strike. The net damage dealt by that single Whiplash attack equaled to a 5.6x critical strike (This value accounts for the 200% damage dealt by the Whiplash damage, the 100% splash damage, the 210% damage bonus taken by the Voodoo Puppet, and the 24.8% magical reduction of the victim from translating the Voodoo Puppet's raw magical damage. This value does not account for the 24% damage bonus passive from Whiplash nor for physical damage reduction of the victim). This of course translates to all other area effect abilities. If you, for example, hit a Voodoo Puppet with a Wave of Death while hitting the victim with the same Wave of Death, the damage becomes 300 * 0.75 * 2.1 * 0.75 = 354 along with 300 * 0.75 = 225, totaling 579 damage for a single 300 raw damage nuke that would have otherwise dealt only 225 damage.

In addition, you may want to look into the possibility of using Puppet Show together with Voodoo Puppet to force your opponent to attack a Voodoo Puppet strung to him or herself.

So though I have not read the contents of the replying posts in this thread extensively, the opening topic post seems to omit some very important mechanical implications for the Puppet Master.

This is cool but VERY VERY situational, and rare. the T-bringer part: If you were to hit TB and your voodoo puppet ulti with one whiplash, then that requires u to be with in a 200 radius of TB when u cast your ulti, since whiplash only has a 200 aoe radius... I could see this in a test game, since the thunder bringer would not be moving, but a semi-skilled TB would not allow himself to be put in position to be right next to puppet. I like where u are going with this though, it could happen. If you play an inexperienced player that gets "showed" and ulti'd, then it serves him right to get smashed with that move. I would not aim to do this in every game, and therefore is probably why he did not mention this in his guide. GOOD IDEA THOUGH :pupp:

[redemption99]

loving your guild and this hero!

Harkons is pretty damn nice, ofcourse going shieldbreaker/geo if you're up against squishy enemies might be better in that cause but lets leave that discussion to personal preferences :)

I was wondering how easy do most of you guys farm with puppet?
I actually don't farm as fast as you make it sound, but often other ppl ninja the ancients so I miss out on those :( ...

I usually get about 2~3 last hits with puppet when laning solo (newbie pub games so that means that ur often the only (viable) option for mid).
Do you guys really manage to get (almost) all the last hits?

I recently went mid with pmaster in a pub game(no one else could/would do it) and managed to get almost every last hit/deny(if i missed a last hit then it usually got denied) which was good since i was up against SoulStealer. He didn't do a good job harrassme with his nukes, he managed to get me low a few times but then i just healed up. If you care enough send me an IM and i'll find the game ID for you. Also just as a warning we ended up losing this game because A: I was lagging near the end and got killed first a lot of times. B: forgot to get shruken head.

[Komte]

I recently went mid with pmaster in a pub game(no one else could/would do it) and managed to get almost every last hit/deny(if i missed a last hit then it usually got denied) which was good since i was up against SoulStealer. He didn't do a good job harrassme with his nukes, he managed to get me low a few times but then i just healed up. If you care enough send me an IM and i'll find the game ID for you. Also just as a warning we ended up losing this game because A: I was lagging near the end and got killed first a lot of times. B: forgot to get shruken head.

Looks like a shitty 1400 player owned you with :blac:

Were you trying to stomp as a 1600+ player in a ap newbs game?

[`warchild`]

@warchild: the usual build is "one of the disables-->whiplash-->whiplash....."
simply because of the fact that a disable can potentialy save your life/ your teammates life or get you bloodlust due to a enemy making a mistake or so. I honestly would always take any of his disables over one lvl of whiplash, if i play against some rather skilled guys. Probably doesnt rly matter in your average pub though.

@ToxicMonkey: I think it doesnt go through magic immunity anymore, but it did earlier. He probably jsut forgot to change it.

it depends who u play and what u are doing, i like a whiplash first becuse if you are heading to lane right away, u can level up in about what...16 seconds? If your going to rune check then get a show or hold first. your teammate is dumb if he is goin to die before anyone has even hit level 2. I was just saying that instead of ALWAYS going hold/show, like that guy said, is not wise

[Lethe]

it depends I guess. Although I recommend getting hold at level 1 in the guide, you will see that in my replay I was laning with soul reaper top, where there was almost 0 chance of getting an early bloodlust, so i just went whiplash. I also didn't go shrunken head as the other team was so far behind by that point that I could just invest my gold into dps.

However, in my guide I say get hold at level 1 and shrunken head is core. Am I hypocritical? No...what I have listed is a guideline that is as strict and accurate is possible, but is not going to apply for every single game, as my replay shows.

For those of you who have a good feel for this hero, I recommend you take notes on replays, watch what they do well, and what they do not. Somethings I felt I did very well this game, like balancing out farming/ganking and my item choice was extremely logical and served me well. Somethings I did not do as well...look for them, that is how you will learn. Examine the game with a fine comb...I could have gone 20-0 easily if I had been more aggressive at some points, and I didn't use kuldra particularly well, for example.

[Nani`]

yeah-yeah, thats true. it rly depends if you go to the rune spot very early on or not. it is a option, sometimes a rather good one, but i have never found myself doing it so far, simply because im paranoid ;D.

@tinyblktears: you missed a kill on pesti early on in that game, because you didnt use hold. thats pretty much the most obvious one. just wanted to sound smart ;D

[Fluke101]

22494002 not an excellent game by me, but shows the ancient stacking and harkon/geo pwnage 22-3-9 or something around that. on a side note i hate legions ancient creeps los is a pain in the arse. That and they seem to love running into the lanes when i kite them

[WhoIsMrBlack]

Love this guide, I've always wanted to hone Puppet Master and this certainly puts me in the right direction.

One question, what items do you usually go for with starting gold?

[ShoopDaWhoo1]

I want pictures so boring to read all this **** when U just need to know what it is when ur ingame and u know what I shall get in 1 s

[Eindbaas]

AFAIK you cannot screenshot by pressing prt scr like you could in wc3, yes I realize there is probably software that would allow me to post screenshots of HoN but I do not have alot of surplus time and the link should give you everything you need to know.

I didn't check if it was mentioned here but you can screenshot by pressing control + f5

[Lethe]

yea i figured it out since my last post. However I am still a strong believer that the best way to learn is to watch other people, and then apply what you have seen, which applies not only to HoN but alot of other things like cooking lol.

[Tbake]

24122350 is a prety good replay of what u want.

Did stacks at about 14 or 15min, went harkons build.

One part I died kinda greedily, but the rest is fairly solid.

I think a 1800 or higher raged at 15 min, but we kicked our engineer cause he was stealing my stacks =). Game is decent, about 30-40 min

[RealTechN9ne]

Add some pictures, for example in the items section. Guide doesnt look very appealing.

Other than that, I would add Savage Mace as an optional luxury to counter Wingbow.

[Lethe]

Lol, updated my guide to match the current version, and with replays proving that this hero is broken beyond comprehension.

[Kekoticmyth]

Edit: never mind figured out I had to go through the game to DL replays.

[BarneyGumbal]

Nice guide, I like it. The only problem I had was remembering to stack ancients. I had a creep dominated and in position, but I'd always forget to stack. Do you have any techniques on remembering to stack? I also had the problem of a (already farmed) Zephyr stealing my stacks that I did remember to do. :mad:

In regards to Geometer's, is the item wasted if you can't keep your illusions alive?

[resp]

Lol, updated my guide to match the current version, and with replays proving that this hero is broken beyond comprehension.
that means before nerfs he was truly broken :O and still I see more PM picks now than before xD

[Paris`]

So I've always wondered when its a good idea to start trying to take down ancient creep stacks. Like what items should I have what level should I be? When can I most effectively do this without taking up too much time away from the rest of the game?

[xyooboo3]

Hey man, this is a great guide. I'd have to agree with your skill build set too, going whiplash early. Puppet Master has a range of 600, so why not abuse it? I like to play aggressive with him early game because his whiplash can deal a fair amount of damage to enemy laners, especially melee heroes. On top of that, it's easy to use whiplash to scare away enemy heroes to deny them exp. Once again, excellent guide. Oh and I love your Voodoo Jester guide too :)

[Kekoticmyth]

So I've always wondered when its a good idea to start trying to take down ancient creep stacks. Like what items should I have what level should I be? When can I most effectively do this without taking up too much time away from the rest of the game?

I usually go like this for items (don't be hatin on my alchemist bones btw 330g for Vagabond leader at the click of a button )

1.Power Supply
2.Steamboots
3.Alchemist bones
4.Whispering Helm
/Great Arcana

by the time I have great arcana and whispering helm I have stacked 2 ancient spawns, and that is quite easy to take down with those items, also I try kill before another spawn / I'll stack 3 and do some kiting to kill them, but I prefer starting off with 2 camps at those items (probably about level 14)

When I get Harkons though, I stack 3 camps, and when I upgrade to Symbol of Rage I'll just pretty much stack about 4-5 camps.
Although really the game should be over if you have those items so stacking is irrelevant.

[chaurx]

what is the optimal level to clear say 4 stacks? i usually wait to about lvl 15 before clearing because it will be alot more effective and wont leave the team hanging.

[HosainH]

savage mace + harkons blade is also an epic combo. 2 Shotted quite a few level 20+ with it. Mind explaining why savage mace isn't recommended? Don't quite understand your reasoning.

[Lethe]

savage mace + harkons blade is also an epic combo. 2 Shotted quite a few level 20+ with it. Mind explaining why savage mace isn't recommended? Don't quite understand your reasoning.


Harkons is better then savage mace no doubt. As far as dps goes, geo is better, as far as survivability goes, shrunken head and symbol of rage is better.

I can't stress this enough, not that savage mace is bad on puppet, it's just not ideal. If I were to finish a 6 item build on puppet, it looks like steamboots, symbol, harkons, shrunken head, geometer's and hellflower/kuldra. Where in that perfect build can savage mace fit in/replace? None that I can see.

[Xizel]

This guy would be WAY more easier to get into if there were icons and fanciful things. The guide may be good, but it's hard to keep on reading with the boring look of things.

[fonkey123]

Harkons is so lol powerful on puppet it's pretty ridiculous.

[Mr`Imperator]

excuse me, I looked through the first pages, but I could not find any refernce to the item puzzlebox (necronomicon) what is your opinion of this item? and what is the reson for why you consider him a good carry? :) if you could elaborate more on the team battle of Puppet master that would be great.
nice guide I liked it.

[Adrenao]

why would bottle be a bad choice in the beginning in case you're going mid?

[Harmonium]

because puppet doesn't need the regen provided by a bottle

[Mr`Fantasy]

great guide, thanks.

[Chronotek2]

Puppet Master is without doubt my fav Damage Hero.
Though since I have a supportive nature in my playstyle I often play Puppet asa disabler hero. Not very rare that I have a stormspirit in my inventory for that extra 3'rd disable option, basicly turning the 5vs5 to a 5vs2 fight for the first part of the clash.

But indeed Harkons Blade is a really nice item on puppet, aswell as keeping an Alchemist Bones in your inventory, both for the attackspeed it provides but it helps building up money for those luxury items.

[MajuiF]

Would Alchemist Bones be a viable item?
Gives a nice gold bonus (+300 gold if cast on vagabond leader) every 100 seconds and it gives you +30 attack speed, which is a great addition to Steamboots.

Would it be viable or is it just a luxury pub-game item?
*Talking about non-em, obviously.

[MajuiF]

why would bottle be a bad choice in the beginning in case you're going mid?
Puppet doesn't have enough Base damage (even though he was whipslahs) to be efficient at last hitting/denying creeps if he has bottle. You better get some stats items to give you more chances of surviving in your lane. Plus you don't need that much mana regen, as you shouldn't be using your spells as harassing spells (since they do no damage and are kinda useless if used on their own).

[Lethe]

Alch bones is decent, it's just risky. By rushing it you are more prone to ganks, and as a hard-carry that just isn't cool.

With that being said it can work in pubs just fine, maybe in higher level games as well but it's just risky, thats all. It can work.

[Aeonstorm]

Is elder parasite at all viable after the recent patch? And I'm talking about pubs of course, where they probably won't target puppet master as effectively to stop his dps.

Oh, and for the ganking part, isn't is possible to go behind them, cast puppeteer's hold, autoattack, wait til they run past you slightly, cast puppet show, autoattack, start chasing them and then cast puppeteer's hold a second time? Also, I've found that his ult is really good for finishing off - it may do more dps to attack the puppet, but I usually cast my ult, autoattack them til they're out of range or sight and then abuse the 1500 range of my ult to keep attacking.

[Lethe]

^ I usually initiate with puppet show, but yea that can work 2.

Elder parasite works in pubs I actually see it quite a bit. Like Alch bones it's just risky, that's all, so it isn't included.

[Aeonstorm]

Actually, ur right, show comboed with hold and ult is usually enough to kill anyway. I still prefer elder as I'm not too great at stacking; i keep forgetting, and i can't set the cycle fast enough.

Btw, how exactly do you kite stacked ancients in a decent amount of time? I know I'm pretty bad at it cos I just started, but it took me 5 minutes to kill ancients that had been stacked 4 -5 times.t I was lvl 11 with whispering helm and steamboots, and it took 2 trips back to the fountain to kill them all. I guess if I kited a bit better I wouldn't have had to go back, saving me at least a minute and a half, but that would still take like 3 minutes to kill them all. Prior to that, I had been 2 - 3 lvls ahead of everyone (as i had been forced to go mid), but afterwards, i was only 1 lvl ahead of my team, and our elec was even the same lvl as me due to some kills. I know it gives you quite a bit of gold, but how do you speed it up to make it worthwhile experience-wise?

Edit: Also, I've tried using whispering helm to dominate a creep and then disassembling it to make elder parasite. It works pretty well for me (only lose 475 gold) as long as I manage to keep the creep alive.

[skyways]

Can anyone share what a good starting item build would be on puppet whose not solo mid? I feel mine which is, circlet, 2x minor totem, 2 tree eatting things, and a manapot is not efficient.

[Kableblah]

thnx for the guide , it's this guide that made puppet my fav character :o

a few small questions:
-if you manage to get a decent farm and get harkons and geo, do your geo-images also do magic dmg?

-I see ppl talk about how puppet got nerfed, I just wonder, how was he nerfed? just being curious :)


thnx

[Lethe]

thnx for the guide , it's this guide that made puppet my fav character :o

a few small questions:
-if you manage to get a decent farm and get harkons and geo, do your geo-images also do magic dmg?

-I see ppl talk about how puppet got nerfed, I just wonder, how was he nerfed? just being curious :)


thnx

The images do magic damage, but the -magic armor debuff does not stack.

He's got a few nerfs over the last few patches but nothing major. check the changelogs for yourself to find out.

[`Meebit`]

aren't they posed to be your replays, not some1 elses vids and replays?

[Donn]

aren't they posed to be your replays, not some1 elses vids and replays?

first of all, some of it ARE his own replays, though on a different account. second of all, they are supposed to show you how EFFECTIVE this build/strat is. that doesnt mean it HAS to be played by him.

[Nani`]

How much impact on ancient stacking with puppet do the recent changes to creep stacking have?

[Lethe]

How much impact on ancient stacking with puppet do the recent changes to creep stacking have?

not a huge one. Puppet Master never needed ancients to farm, he can just farm in-lane and stuff. With that being said you can delay whispering helm for other items like shrunken head and harkons.

[pk_thunder]

now should I just skip whispering helm or shrunken head then go to harkons?
or should I still get whispering helm and then just use it's atk mod until I have harkons?

[Donn]

now should I just skip whispering helm or shrunken head then go to harkons?
or should I still get whispering helm and then just use it's atk mod until I have harkons?

Harkons stack with whispering, for some strange reason

[pk_thunder]

Harkons stack with whispering, for some strange reason
rly?!?!?!

hell yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ur post made my day (if u lie I will kill you)

[JumboJoe]

can you update this guide with the lifesteal an exclusive attack modifier change?

[Lethe]

Lifesteal stacks with harkon's. No need to update

[Jayykob]

Bump

[Redix]

Bump

[PixelCombat]

Thank you very much for this guide. It really helped me out.
First game after reading this, I got a really nice score.

1354018

Ended up with 15-1-6

I failed with the ult sometimes though, but I'll practice. :)
Used your item guide and skill setup guide.


Again, thanks. :D

[Lethe]

glad i could help :)

[Ghazalan]

Harkons no longer stack with lifesteal. What's the general thought of upgrade?

[s3r1al1337]

Harkons no longer stack with lifesteal. What's the general thought of upgrade?
:pupp:
yeah, im thinking about that too... skip whispering and go directly to shrunken/harkons, or take whispering just for stacking?

[Ghazalan]

Well i did notice that stacking the ancients 3x made em quite hard to kill between lvl8-15. So its not like your going to be concentrating on it unless you have a really easy lane as imho it takes too much time to kill them and get back.
The G/XP boost is handy but what im primarly concerned about is the lifesteal itself. With Puppets high dmg it sucks a good bit of life out of the target giving you very good staying capabilitys.

If your in the lane you can stack the ancients yourself without much issue wile rune checking.

Im not sure how to replace the lifesteal yet, im figuring a pure dmg item like savage mace or something along those lines. Not sure what currently stacks and what does not.

- Addition: Elder Parasite, no creepcontrol but i can see this work wile ganking early in lanes/jungle. Tower pushing would become easyer too if you can manage aggro.

[pk_thunder]

maybe puzzlebox?

works well with his pseudo disables and if u desperately need money

also nullfire blade is nice

[Lethe]

The damage potential of harkon's outweighs the lifesteal of helm unfortunately.

This means that whispering helm early will no longer be needed.

Standard build looks like steamboots -> shrunken -> harkon's (either harkon's or shrunken can be switched depending on game).

This makes stacking of any sort rather unnecessary. I can't justify spending 2k gold to stack camps when I can have shrunken head of harkon's that much earlier.

The lifesteal active of SoR still works through any orb, additionally, it proves useful late-game as a quick burst heal, i.e. enemies are dead, you are pushing the enemy base, and need hp back, turn off harkon's and kill creeps to get hp back.

Will update guide now.

[MtX`]

I still don't fully understand PM's ult. When I ult, do I attack the puppet in all cases, regardless?

[Skull4er]

if you puppet show an enemy to attack the puppet, then focus on the hero, as the controlled hero can not kill the puppet but deals full dmg to himself/his ally.

[Lethe]

I still don't fully understand PM's ult. When I ult, do I attack the puppet in all cases, regardless?

Math proves that attacking the puppet will always deal more damage the attacking the target.

If you're afraid that the target will get away, continue to attack him a few times, and when he is out of attack range, start hitting the puppet.

[_ClayDavis]

Why does puppet show sometimes wear off too early even when the affected target is standing near someone?

[Lethe]

Why does puppet show sometimes wear off too early even when the affected target is standing near someone?

I've actually had this happen to me a few times. I honestly have no idea but it's a pissoff.

I should really ask Elementuser about that. I haven't had it happen to me since retail, but somehow I don't find it surprising it still occurs on occasion.

[kirbyruled]

Do you still feel that Puppet is not a very strong solo?

[Lethe]

Do you still feel that Puppet is not a very strong solo?

I'd say he's niche. He can work against heroes/players that are going to try a balls to the wall ricing contest mid against him. A properly played enemy solo hero, especially one that is keen on controlling the runes, is likely going to cause problems. Most heroes go mid to control the early game/runes and gank. Puppet Master goes mid to just farm up a storm. That's not to say that you can control runes and gank as puppet, but it isn't nearly as impressive as a TB/hag/defiler/bubbles/pp/ss/valk/cd/pharaoh/fayde/elec/succ etc etc that does this.

Even in competitive games atm, when puppet is used, rarely will you see him solo mid. If anything, he might solo the safe lane if there is a jungler/trilane elsewhere. Here, his harass is much more applicable and he is relatively safe from enemies who use runes. You only really see puppet mid if the player playing him has a significant skill advantage, like chu or testie.

[ElementUser]

I've actually had this happen to me a few times. I honestly have no idea but it's a pissoff.

I should really ask Elementuser about that. I haven't had it happen to me since retail, but somehow I don't find it surprising it still occurs on occasion.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=106620


The point is that Puppet Show checks for the valid targets to attack on impact. This means that if no enemies are within 250/300/350/400 range at the time Puppet Show impacts, Puppet Show is essentially wasted/useless for the duration even if you get into range of a valid target after it impacted.

That's how the skill works - this is important to understand why Puppet Show may end prematurely.

Basically, if the "attacked unit" due to Puppet Show dies, then the unit with Puppet Show on him is free from the force attack command because the unit it has to attack is gone.

[Lethe]

Thank you Element you are awesome.

Just to make sure I understand, Puppet Show is wasted if there are no enemies in the 250/300/350/400 radius when cast, and if the target that the puppet show'd hero is attacking dies, it breaks puppet show.

100% consistent with all cases I've ever had regarding this.

[ElementUser]

Yeah basically.

It also stops if the unit it was forced to attack becomes an invalid unit (ie, via Stormspirit)

[pk_thunder]

it doesn't switch targets?

[Lethe]

it doesn't switch targets?

Nope. I saw it a few times and always thought it was a bug or something. Didn't seem to make sense to me the way it was written in the tooltip. The way it is coded though, it works as intended.

[bfbfbfbf]

New item build will look like Whispering helm -> steamboots -> harkons (great arcana first, acolyte's staff is relatively useless until you complete harkons) -> shrunken head -> Symbol of Rage -> true luxury (kuldra, hellflower, frostwolf skull).
whispering helm does not stack with harkons

[Lethe]

yea i need to update guide a bit, will do in near future

[S3LO]

i rly dont think harkon is viable anymore, still good, but without lifesteal u just cant carry well ( except with mega feed )
now i always go steamboots > alchemist bones > whispering helm > bkb > thunderclaw > charged hammer > savage mass

[pk_thunder]

i rly dont think harkon is viable anymore, still good, but without lifesteal u just cant carry well ( except with mega feed )
now i always go steamboots > alchemist bones > whispering helm > bkb > thunderclaw > charged hammer > savage mass
harkons still works, the problem is the fact that it's pretty hard to farm without it (neuts/ancients)

[NiGHTsC]

Harkons is better then savage mace no doubt. As far as dps goes, geo is better, as far as survivability goes, shrunken head and symbol of rage is better.

I can't stress this enough, not that savage mace is bad on puppet, it's just not ideal. If I were to finish a 6 item build on puppet, it looks like steamboots, symbol, harkons, shrunken head, geometer's and hellflower/kuldra. Where in that perfect build can savage mace fit in/replace? None that I can see.How about now? would you still suggest symbol(or maybe elder?) after the lifesteal becomes a modifier?
cause having both harkon and symbol means two exclusives modifiers.

[pk_thunder]

How about now? would you still suggest symbol(or maybe elder?) after the lifesteal becomes a modifier?
cause having both harkon and symbol means two exclusives modifiers.
EP is just bad

with the patch I think whispering helm is the way to go and then get a savage mace now because it isn't an atk mod

also thunderclaw doesn't seem too bad...

harkons is more situational

[Thehummel]

After i've seen some replays from the top players ( ect Dodo ), They dont go harkons anymore.. I think Dodo one game went Whispering -> Shurken -> Savage mace.

Is that viable or is the rushed Harkons best?

[pk_thunder]

After i've seen some replays from the top players ( ect Dodo ), They dont go harkons anymore.. I think Dodo one game went Whispering -> Shurken -> Savage mace.

Is that viable or is the rushed Harkons best?
it really depends on the lineup

whispering helm is important but if ur team has tons of magic dmg harkons could be gotten

the thing is whispering helm is just so valuable to puppet that it's hardly ever skipped

[Thehummel]

What about this build,

Whispering
Shurken
Savage
Symbol of Rage
Geometers?

Would that even be viable?

[Lethe]

The main benefit of lifesteal has always been the increased ehp you get from actively attacking an enemy unit. The savage mace+ geo bane+lifesteal combo is strong however, and while it certainly doesn't deal nearly as much damage as harkons+geo, it can work if you need the lifesteal.

I think people are in the mindset that lifesteal is a requirement to carry just because it wasn't too long ago where you could stack lifesteal with just about any orb in HoN. Lifesteal typically tends to be only mandatory when you have a hero who will get into the thick of things while attacking, in dota, this included heroes like luna, PA and troll. Puppet has 600 range, and 2 long duration disables. Lifesteal is definitely not a mandatory attack modifier on Puppet.

To be honest though, as harkon's is relatively stronger the higher the enemy's physical armor value is, I tend to go steamboots-> shrunken -> harkon's now. Puppet has dropped in popularity, as the nerfs, the metagame, and the huge increase of gankers like Fayde, Chipper, Tundra and Bubbles makes him a risky choice, even though he still is more useful then most hard carries.

[Swadloon]

I like your guide, but there are a few things I'd like to address.

You don't mention dominating a creep with whispering helm for any reason besides stacking (even before lifesteal became a modifier) even though ice ogre is imba, wolf commander is helpful to have around, and minotaurs can often net kills. (I am aware that whispering helm is not as viable anymore, but I still feel it's a good item on puppet)

One other thing I'd like to address is using your voodoo puppet with puppet show. Even if you won't ever use this combo in a team fight, it is brutal in 1v1s as they will continue to hurt themselves even if the voodoo puppet reaches 1 hp (as long as no one else touches it).
(Good way to do this is open with hold -> walk up to them -> chain voodoo puppet followed by puppet show -> Auto-attack to death)

I am not a especially good player, and I would like to hear your reasoning with these things. I hope I didn't miss these in your other posts as I did not read through all the pages.

[skyways]

I saw this build in some high ladder replay.

Marchers-->Assigns Shroud--> Shrunken Head--> Bone Crusher-->Shield Breaker

Once he got shroud he was able to farm so effectively as he was able to stealth and attack on a Crit and kill full creep waves. By the time he got shrunken crits were in the 800's. In addition with good timing he was able to cast vodoo puppet, go invis and 1 shot almost full hp opponents. What are your thoughts on this burst build? I recently have been having a fair amount of success after switching from the fast harkons build.

[Lethe]

I saw this build in some high ladder replay.

Marchers-->Assigns Shroud--> Shrunken Head--> Bone Crusher-->Shield Breaker

Once he got shroud he was able to farm so effectively as he was able to stealth and attack on a Crit and kill full creep waves. By the time he got shrunken crits were in the 800's. In addition with good timing he was able to cast vodoo puppet, go invis and 1 shot almost full hp opponents. What are your thoughts on this burst build? I recently have been having a fair amount of success after switching from the fast harkons build.


What is bone crusher?

With the nerfs though I'll have to admit shroud is more viable, since puppet has no real escape mechs and is forced to farm in lane. Link me the replay plz.

[skyways]

What is bone crusher?

With the nerfs though I'll have to admit shroud is more viable, since puppet has no real escape mechs and is forced to farm in lane. Link me the replay plz.

Sorry I meant Savage Mace.

In this replay he went this item build, slightly different then what I posted:

Steam Boots --> Shroud --> Savage Mace --> shield breaker.

The build I posted is what I am tending to lean on, as I feel shrunken gives me much more durability in fights.

Replay:
http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=1093311

[kiru]

harkons still works, the problem is the fact that it's pretty hard to farm without it (neuts/ancients)

what? puppets passive skill makes him fine at farming, what makes it hard to farm nuets / ancients is not having lifesteal.. not not having harkons..

[Lethe]

Sorry I meant Savage Mace.

In this replay he went this item build, slightly different then what I posted:

Steam Boots --> Shroud --> Savage Mace --> shield breaker.

The build I posted is what I am tending to lean on, as I feel shrunken gives me much more durability in fights.

Replay:
http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=1093311

That was an incredibly bad choice to go shroud in that case. Against not only Pestilence, but a Hellbringer with Puzzlebox. It was a deserved loss.

Pros sometimes do bad item choices and this one is no exception. His item build makes no sense whatsoever. Not only the issue with shroud, but also going shieldbreaker after savage mace, which is an incredibly inefficient way to maximize dps, he should have gone Harkon's, even riftshards would have been a better choice then shieldbreaker.

This follows the basic principle that an early shieldbreaker >> a late shieldbreaker. If you can't finish shieldbreaker before 30 mins, get a different dps item instead. This is the same idea as Scouts that go savage mace -> harkons after runed axe rather then shieldbreaker if they know they can't farm steamboots runed axe shieldbreaker before 30 mins.

[Thehummel]

Lethe, could you maybe add a alternative build for non-harkons users?

[Lethe]

Lethe, could you maybe add a alternative build for non-harkons users?

yea I'll try to I've been incredibly busy with work lately.

[BubbleZ]

You were probably doing nice dmg bec you had :andr:and:arac:with their dmg % increase skills.. Also you were using assassin shroud to increase your dmg, and I guess to gank. But in team fights you would need it to escape so I can't rely on it as a source of dmg increase.

[pk_thunder]

what? puppets passive skill makes him fine at farming, what makes it hard to farm nuets / ancients is not having lifesteal.. not not having harkons..
try to tank neuts at lvl 7-10 (which is when u should have whispering), it's hard without lifesteal and the nice regen, which is helpful for laning

lifesteal even gets better later on, it's pretty amazing for hard carries and since puppet is ranged abby skull doesn't work and u are a hard carry so >.>

[Thehummel]

That's why i've started to go Whispering helm and Savage mace.. Works quite nicely, and you can even stack ancients again, which is always a nice gold boost.

[Donn]

after trying out physical dps puppet again last game, i found that it's just so vastly inferior to the harkons build :\

so many times i'm just standing there auto attacking the enemy when I'm thinking "oh, if i got a harkon's instead of this whispering helm he would be dead already." even with the increased difficulty in jungling, i now firmly believe that harkons is completely worth it :<

[Lethe]

^ Well that's the thing with harkon's. By converting your damage to magic and reducing the target's magic armor you are effectively dealing 2-3x dmg late game then you would be if you were just using physical dps.

[skyways]

I just don't like rushing to harkons build that much. It used to be my standard build but i just don't find it that effective anymore, I feel to squishy even when I get bkb. I really do feel that shroud should be first item you should get as it just vastly increases your farm rate.

If your able to get a 20 min shroud, you are able to 1 shot (shroud + whiplash) creep waves and greatly increase your farm rate. In addition you now have a 600 dmg crit on a 13 sec cool down. Allowing plenty of burst dps in addition to a escape mechanism. Being able to open on support and 2 shotting them during the mid game really gives your team control.

With this control of the mid game + your increased farm rate farming your 2nd luxory item is effortless. Which allows you to continue your dominace into the late game. In addition in the late game shroud + whiplash can crit in the 1000's+. Cast that on vodoo puppet and you can one shot the majority of support, and cripple carry s.

My new item build goes:
Steam-->shroud-->shurken-->shield breaker--> geometers bane-->demonic breastplate.

Thoughts on the build? Obviously I go harkons vs certain teams but, I just don't feel its that effective in the mid game.

[pk_thunder]

MONEY CRIT xD

but u shouldn't plan on finishing ur build, u'd get to shieldbreaker and win/lose by then generally

but harkons still outweights shieldbreaker in dps for puppet, only get shieldbreaker if ur going a -armor strat

[skyways]

MONEY CRIT xD

but u shouldn't plan on finishing ur build, u'd get to shieldbreaker and win/lose by then generally

but harkons still outweights shieldbreaker in dps for puppet, only get shieldbreaker if ur going a -armor strat

My questions is say I go harkons instead of shield which is fine by me. On a crit however will my + dmg from shroud be factored in with the addition of using harkon attack on my opponent? Like is the harkon + dmg only physical so it wouldn't be factored in a magic attack? I played a game and i could of sworn that this was happening... Can anyone confirm?

[TheVeronicas]

...wt bout harkons blade...it rapes

[Foul]

tried physical puppet for a while after the nerfs, I used to love Puppet but I could just never justify it when I could just pick Archna/FA/SS. Played him again recently and need a Null Stone, ended up going ~


:Steamboots::Nullstone::HarkonsBlade::SavageMace:

It actually went really well and was the closest I've found to the old puppet. You have ridiculous regen for harkons andthe health regen lets you jungle pretty easily too if needed. The biggest benefit though is that it actually gives you back that bit of survivability I find him to be lacking.

It's a bit situational, though I might also try swapping null for sheep, Geo Bane would also be nice but for that much I see more benefit in Sheep.

Also guide needs to be either updated or removed, it's way too outdated.

[Octavia]

Honestly, I think Puppet Master simply needs Whispering Helm too much, making Harkon's impractical. Considering how much Hellflower has gotten buffed recently (Cheaper steamstaves, silences through immunity) it works really well on Puppet.

I think :Steamboots: :WhisperingHelm: (:ShrunkenHead:) :Hellflower: :SavageMace: is the most optimal build in the current patch.

[Azura]

Nice guide but i tend to max out Puppet show before whiplash because its better for ganking

[Foul]

Honestly, I think Puppet Master simply needs Whispering Helm too much, making Harkon's impractical. Considering how much Hellflower has gotten buffed recently (Cheaper steamstaves, silences through immunity) it works really well on Puppet.

I think :Steamboots: :WhisperingHelm: (:ShrunkenHead:) :Hellflower: :SavageMace: is the most optimal build in the current patch.

Hadn't thought of hellflower, looks nice.

[Drasha]

This guide needs images displaying skill ranges and 3 or more replays.

[Jack_Parow]

Yo iv taken quite a liking in puppet wat i discovered works well wen targetting 1 or 2 heroes is to puppet show the one and imediately ulti him. That way he attacks his own puppet and u cn attack him or the other hero directly :) I dnt hav a match reference but trust me it works time and again.

[`BlueBeard`]

hmm I find ThunderClaw a really good intermediate item for him, going straight for Harkon could be hard as you won't have any escape mechanism during mid game, where puppet will be ganked alot.

if you went for Shrunken headress after steamboot, it adds only mediocre dmg so you will be so so mid game.

[`BlueBeard`]

.
...
My new item build goes:
Steam-->shroud-->shurken-->shield breaker--> geometers bane-->demonic breastplate.

Thoughts on the build? Obviously I go harkons vs certain teams but, I just don't feel its that effective in the mid game.

not so sure why shroud then shruken as they don't provide constant dmg in team fights, seems one of them is enough, then go straight for a better dps item.

[Noteboom]

Hi folks,
i have a question concerning Puppet Master's value in competitive matches. I read, that he is only a situational pick. I'm wondering why, i find him generally really balanced and almost always worth picking. Could someone explain it to me?

[iVhae]

I feel Whispering Helm is still useful on him even though it doesn't stack with Harkons anymore. I play puppet as a team player who is always present in ganks and team clashes, so I rush WH and Shrunken Head on him to get HP as I attack, to AA freely on the battlefield without fear of getting disabled. Also because WH is just a nice item to have when farming if there's nothing better to do and creep stacking. I really don't mind Harkons not stacking with WH so I still build it for late game carrying. I totally agree with the OP on the Charged Hammer part. It's too useless when you're going Harkons route. If you're looking for ASPD then go for Hellflower instead.

*EDIT* I did that lately and really felt useless when I got caught up midgame with no farm and SH not completed

[BlueWand]

If i cast voodoo doll on an enemy carry, and then cast puppet show on the enemy carry standing next to the puppet, will he attack the puppet?

[`shook]

yes he will

[`shook]

Hi folks,
i have a question concerning Puppet Master's value in competitive matches. I read, that he is only a situational pick. I'm wondering why, i find him generally really balanced and almost always worth picking. Could someone explain it to me?

He has too many downsides as a carry, no escape mechanism, very squishy, and needs a lot of farm to be useful. His disables aren't really disables and in a lot of situations aren't even worth using.

Problem is there are ranged carries with out his downsides and plenty of heroes with solid hard disables that are always effective. He is a really good hero and can completely destroy people in pubs.

[Sophos]

Pro tip: Walk up to an enemy, hold him, show him into attacking something whatever, then ult him, and splash both of them. Dead hero.

P.S. Sorry if this was mentioned anywhere was in a rush when typing.

[iVhae]

Pro tip: To look cool, don't apologize

[JEWJEWLZRGN]

He has too many downsides as a carry, no escape mechanism, very squishy, and needs a lot of farm to be useful. His disables aren't really disables and in a lot of situations aren't even worth using.

Problem is there are ranged carries with out his downsides and plenty of heroes with solid hard disables that are always effective. He is a really good hero and can completely destroy people in pubs.

u srs? not like puppet show is the longest disable/silence in the entire game....aren't even worth using... FML

[Sophos]

Protip:Get a sig that actually makes sense, if you're gonna get one at all.

[TheMackem]

Pro tip: Walk up to an enemy, hold him, ult him, then make him attck the puppet and splash both of them. Dead hero.

Let hilarity ensue as he insta-died and even helped you kill himself.

FYP. :D

[Nadcel]

Steamboots>WH>SH>HellFlower>Warpclef>Charged Hammer>SoR vs normal team. Steamboots>SH>Harkon>Hellflower>Warpclef>Charged Hammer vs tankies

[KEENGAMER]

Just thought i'd roll back into this thread many months later to laugh at how I was right about puppet shroud uhuhuhuh

[Dawnbringer]

Just gonna say, puzzlebox on puppet master can be a great pickup. It serves a similar idea to getting it on elec/succubus/tundra in that while held/disabled the minions just destroy, add to that the fact you can force them to destroy the melee summon dealing heavy damage to themselves why you whack away.

edit: woops, gravedig :/