TBT's runthrough for the one and only Madman

[Lethe]

Madman link (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroview.php?hid=42)http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroview.php?hid=42

for all of Madman's stat info and skills.

Disclaimer:
This runthrough will analyze Madman's skills, skill build, core analysis, and most importantly his item build, which is the reason I made the poll. Feel free to discuss my item build amongst yourselves. This runthrough has been updated to match the .30 version.

Notes on Skills:

Stalk:


The main benefit of leveling stalk is the cooldown decrease, which has a huge impact on your offensive and defensive capabilities. Never get just one level of this skill, get all 4 unless you like the noob label.




This skill has a 0.5 second fade time. Many people overlook this but it is huge. Unless you are running directly away from a hero while spamming stalk at the exact moment he casts a targeted stun it is virtually impossible for you not to get stunned. Even with godly reflexes you are likely to get stunned due to the fade time, even if you are invis.



Some people like to use this skill to harass/creep farm early game. Don't overdue it. Madman's base int and int gain are far to low to use this frequently. Personally I would advocate never using stalk to grab creep kills early game unless you can ensure at least 2 with a single stalk.


Barrel Roll:


Think of it as impale with displacement thrown in. You can dodge stuns with a well-timed roll, and honestly you have a much better chance dodging a stun with barrel roll then you do with stalk. The skill that Madman is feared for early game, stalk is just the icing on the cake.



Gash:



Crit skill, not much to say. Combined with his high agi gain and ult this is a strong tool for dps mid-late game, amplifying all dps affected by armor reduction, damage and attack speed by 24%



Berserk:



Identical to Troll Warlord's old ult before it got changed. Steroid skill, nuff said.


Core analysis:



Let's clarify one thing, Madman is a carry that is useful all game, in fact he is noctorious for it.




His stat gain and base stats are rather stereotypical for a hard agi carry, but stalk and barrel roll open a world of opportunities for him from the get-go.



However, his agi gain, crit and ult make him deadly under the right hands when late game rolls around. At that point you will be focusing on his hard carry aspect.



His base int and int gain are terrible.



Therefore, it should not come as a surprise that you should consider all these aspects of Madman as you build him, both skill wise and itemwise.



Skill build:
1: Stalk
2-3: Barrel Roll
4: Stalk
5: Barrel Roll
6: Stalk
7: Barrel Roll
8: Stalk
9: Gash
10-11: Berserk
12-14: Gash
15: Stats
16: Berserk
17-25: Stats



Barrel Roll and Stalk have full priority over anything else early game. Berserk only costs 50 mana at level 1, but honestly the mana spent on it can be used for an extra stalk that will likely save you/grant you a kill. You can max out stalk over barrel roll if you want at level 7, but personally I prefer the extra benefit of an additional level of an aoe stun over 2 seconds off stalk cooldown. Take your pick it shouldn't make a significant difference.





As of the recent patch, taking berserk earlier is much more feasible. However, Stalk and Barrel roll still have priority over it. Taking level 2 berserk at level 11 should not hinder your mana pool and should give you sizable dps boost, certainly enough to make a difference.



Item build:



Did you scroll down to this section? No surprise, you need to build this hero properly to get the most out of him.


- Logger's hatchet, minor stat items, both health and mana regen



No surprise here. Stereotypical opening carry build which focuses on farm.

- Mana battery/Power supply/Bottle



You can take any of these, or even none if you want. You need to address Madman's heavy dependence for mana this early.

-Sustainer



The regen is very applicable to Madman, and relating to the above, he needs it too.

-Steamboots



Set on strength mode, if you feel you can sacrifice vitality for some needed mana during certain ganks turn it on int in certain scenerios. Enhanced Marchers is useless on Madman, we don't need the early damage, or the phase, or the attack speed. We just need vitality and mana.

-Glowstone



Further reinforce Madman's hp and mana needs. This item is noctorious for being the best item for hp and mana for its price.

-Runed Axe (Bastard Sword and Broadsword)



We have the stats required to play Madman early game/mid game with the glowstone and steamboot combination. That aspect of him is covered, and done with. Runed axe will let us scale late game, into a great farmer and a late game carry that the other team should rightfully fear.


Projected Time to farm this much in an ideal game: 30 mins


-Shrunken Head



Physical dps carry, need magic immunity, nothing more to say.

Following this, you can build several items for Madman. This is what I use.

- Frostwolf Skull (2x blessed orbs, recipe)



More then enough physical dps already, we just need to effectively deal it. Magic immunity? Check. Stats? Check. Enough mana that you will never run dry again? Check. Slow that allows you to effectively deal your dps under magic immunity? Check and mate.

- Savage Mace



It's either this or wingbow. Savage Mace actually deals more dps then wingbow, and as you usually won't face off against more then one carry I heavily favor Savage Mace to Wingbow, especially with truestrike as a perk.

- Symbol of Rage



The best vitality item available this late in the game with the nerf to behemoth's heart. Depending on the type of lineup you can take whispering helm earlier, at the very earliest after you complete shrunken head.

Other items, and why I hate most of them. Orange items means that they can be viable, Red items make me puke when I see a Madman with one.

- Sacrificial Stone



This item takes care of stats and regen, but completely neglects Madman's ability to carry late game. With the most recent nerf to this item I have no idea why you would build this item. I enjoy killing my enemies in seconds rather then chasing them down over the course of a team fight, thank you.

-Hellflower



This item is even more disgusting. Costs alot of gold, buildup has no real vital components other then mana regen, gives no hp, and has a single-targeted silence. You may get more mana regen out of it then a runed axe, but with a runed axe you don't have to use stalk/barrel roll as much anyway to farm. People that go hellflower on Madman due to its stats are clueless. Instead of either of these **** items, try:

-Kuldra's Sheepstick



You like mana regen? You like to "semi/pseudo carry?" You want a disable that far outdoes what Hellflower's silence could ever dream of? Go kuldra. If you intend to build Madman as a semi-carry there is absolutely no reason you should be taking sacrificial stone or Hellflower over Kuldra, ever.

- Nullfire Blade



Not that this item is bad, but it doesn't bring out Madman's potential as a hard carry. It's like going nullfire on tDL over Runed axe. If you need it that bad draft a SW or Valk who can get this item and use it more effectively with respect to their playstyle. Or even the newly buffed Electrician.

- Shieldbreaker



Damage? Oh yea. Lack of everything else Madman needs? Unfortunately. I used to take Shieldbreaker over Runed axe if my team had a Glacius, but since then Glacius has went from being a top hero to a mediocre one. Shieldbreaker is less effective as enemies stack more armor, so by the time you finish shrunken head there are quite a few items that are far more deadly, aka wingbow, savage mace or frostwolf skull.

-Abysmal Skull



Lifesteal is good. Mana regen isn't needed though, especially since it is fixed and we are concerning ourselves with scaling mana regen while using bottle/mana battery to keep ourselves up and ready early game. Get whispering helm over this.

-Brutalizer



I don't care if you are playing pubs. Learn how to carry properly.

-Harkon's Blade



This one is very situational. Used properly it can double or even triple your dps. Used without thought, it is pointless. Take Harkon's as a 6th item when shrunken head isn't needed. As strong as harkon's may be, it cannot replace lifesteal, nor runed axe, nor frostwolf skull, and personally I think the savage mace+ runed axe combo gives you enough dps even before armor reduction. If you absolutely do not need shrunken head, take harkon's as a 6th and final item.

- Post Haste



Stats are far more important early in the game. TP is worth the cost on some heroes, but Madman is certainly not one of them. You can replace steamboots with post haste if you have like a 75 min game with a full item build.

- Daemonic Breastplate



Wildcard of any carry hero. Often you won't need it, sometimes you will. The more noticeble perks are the armor reducing aura that works on structures...and, well, that's about it. Armor and the warpcleft component won't make Madman much stronger then he already is, at least as far as vitaility and dps is concerned.


Frostburn


Frostburn is quite a strong item for certain heroes, but I find it personally redundant on madman. A maxed out madman deals out over 1k dps with this build, but that is under the most ideal conditions; it is much easier to apply the dps with a 30% slow rather then a 15% slow. Furthermore the MS gain is wasted. Frostwolf is 1100 g more expensive but as a hard carry money shouldn't really be an issue. Some carry heroes use frostburn better then frostwolf, like swiftblade and magebane. As for incredibly high single-target dps heroes like madman and tdl...stick to frostwolf.


Charged Hammer


Basically there are better items out there, the IAS boost is really redundant when we already have berserk. Buying it for the extra farm is a bad excuse for it as runed axe is infinitely superior and getting both for farming purposes is overkill. Not a bad item overall but I would take savage mace before wingbow on madman, and wingbow before charged hammer. Too bad there are only 6 item slots in HoN.


- Mock of Brilliance



This item just doesn't fit Madman's playstyle. This isn't exactly a hero that farms up 3800 gold early in the game. Completely neglects mana regen, vitality, mana pool. Not worth the mock+ stalk synergy. This item worked on weaver in dota, but is far less practical on Madman.

- Alchemist Bones



There are far too many things you should worry about early game then rushing Alchemist bones. Luckily I have never seen a Madman go Alchemist bones, but there is a first for everything.

- Riftshards



You already have a crit. Get Savage Mace instead.

-Rushed Shrunken head



This hero builds as a carry later in the game, he isn't war beast or something. Believe me when I say no enemy will care that you're magic immune when you are struggling to manage your own mana.

-Rushed Runed Axe



Mana regen is nice, you still need to concern yourself with vitality and a bigger mana regen pool as well. Boost in farm that early from a runed axe is hardly noticeble. If you can rush a runed axe in 15 mins then you certainly do not need it to reinforce your creep stats, follow my core build and finish runed axe when it is actually useful. With that being said you shouldn't be rushing any dps items on Madman.


Replays

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=34972669 is one I played today, I kinda feel bad about joining a 1550+ rated game for the purpose of getting a quick replay but w/e it turned out better then I expected. I kinda get pissed off near the end after our vindicator does an incredibly stupid move...yea I might have overreacted a bit but I have lost so many games due to single individual mistakes you couldn't even believe it >.<. Overall it shows this build in effect, note though I didn't go shrunken head in this game as it should have been theoretically unnecessary with vindicator and a strong hp pool.

That's all folks. Hope you learned a thing or two. TBT out, I wish you all the best with your future endeavors.

[ColdBreeze]

first

[Akavir]

Thank you. I found out that all this time i had been getting a couple of reds =S, so yeah I learned a few things.

And no i'm not blindly agreeing with him, his descriptions on what items not to get made sense to me.

Only thing that I (i'm not an expert) would question is whether or not get at least a hungry spirit just a tad earlier, since it really helps heaps when farming neutrals and ancients.

OH and one last thing if by any chance you read this, Quelling Blade -> Logger's Hatchet in HoN. Not really a huge deal but since the rest of your guide is in HoN terms i'd say, spend a few more seconds to make the guide completely consistent.

[a_cloth]

You will be missed, you're a genius at this game, ecspecially the carrying aspect.

I'll really miss your posts :(

Thank you for this guide and all of its insight.

bye:(:(:(:(:(:(

[Stalker]

YEAY! madman guide!
Any way, why level barrel roll before stalk? I always like to level stalk asap.

[a_cloth]

YEAY! madman guide!
Any way, why level barrel roll before stalk? I always like to level stalk asap.

He explained why barrel roll is superior to stalk in that the fade time on stalk makes it less useful and how barrel roll dominates early game.

he also said you can go either way before level 7 it doesn't make a huge difference

[Volcarr]

aww i like the glowstone build, because runed axe is great but you dont have the mana to support your abilities and mana regen isnt very effective without a larger mana pool which glowstone and eventually skadi/frostwolfts skull will give you. Pretty good build thank you.

[Drasha]

Pretty solid nothing i was not already doing. Why did you buy loggers hatchet at the shop instead of in lane at the outpost?

[Mabey]

What do you think of Eldar Parasite on him? :)

EDIT: For pubs that is, obviously, it probably sucks in higher lvl play.

[Madlobster]

To be brutaly honest I think this hero sucks hard early and midgame. And as everyone know, any lategame carry will be utterly pawned by sheepsticks and disables.
I find Madman to be very very weak :(

[a_cloth]

To be brutaly honest I think this hero sucks hard early and midgame. And as everyone know, any lategame carry will be utterly pawned by sheepsticks and disables.
I find Madman to be very very weak :(

shrunken head is in that build for a reason

[Tardcore]

Good guide/walkthrough imo. I use a very similar build to this. Hadnt ever tried the glowstone before though cos I usually build my whispering helm, shrunken head and savage mace before skadi and usually dont get around to farming skadi.

[jay`t]

will try this tonight, been shying away from madman as I have no idea how to build him

thanks for the runthru

[Jeza]

Identical to my current stat and item build for him, apart from glowstone. I dunno, I was kind of hoping that I would learn some new tricks from something that had this much fuss over it, but I suppose I should be satisfied I was almost building him ideally.

[Valor2002]

I build him the following:

Iron Shield
Bottle or Power Supply
Steamboots
Soulscream Ring x2
Shrunken Head
Shieldbreaker or Diffusal or Savage Mace

end of game

[sHoWTiMe]

I play him just like this!

So, nice guide!

Edit: although I like to get symbol of rage (whispering helm) before frostwolfs skull.

And I DO get shieldbreaker when they have a lot of squishies since it adds the best dps/gold in the game and you literally three hit them. And since you already have about 2 k health because of the symbol of rage and some stats.

Edit: I'm talking about pubs though


And lol @ people who think madman is weak in early/mid game.... Every played vs a decent madman? I get almost all my kills in midd game, can escape a lot of narrow situations. And in the end dominate with him.

Also the guide of 'Madman: Insanity at it's best' is actually very similar and also very good.

[Czech0]

I build him the following:

Iron Shield
Bottle or Power Supply
Steamboots
Soulscream Ring x2
Shrunken Head
Shieldbreaker or Diffusal or Savage Mace

end of game

You say that like your build is better than the guide above. lol

[Glorify1]

-Hellflower



This item is even more disgusting. Costs alot of gold, buildup has no real vital components other then mana regen, gives no hp, and has a single-targeted silence. You may get more mana regen out of it then a runed axe, but with a runed axe you don't have to use stalk/barrel roll as much anyway to farm. People that go hellflower on Madman due to its stats are clueless. Instead of either of these **** items, try:



This made me lol, madman's best item, allows him to both initiate and counter opposing initiators. The only reason you rarely see this item on me when I play him is due to laning with fairy.

[Demetrious]

Why do you say that Shieldbreaker is less effective as enemies stack more armor?

[Stickyrolls]

Just tried out your starting build and it did wonders. Finally did good w/mm. He farms so freakin well once you get some good gear on him. Makes me wish there were like 20 ancient camps side by side :D

[Voidi]

Shieldbreaker is less effective as enemies stack more armor

No, since positive armor scales linear. I agree with most of the rest of your post, especially his need for mana early-mid game and your skill build.

[Tardcore]

No, since positive armor scales linear.
If I remember right you gain armour linearly but its effect does not scale linearly. ie. you have 5 armour and you get 5 more, the % damage reduction given by that 5 extra armour will be more than if you have 20 armour and get 5 more. So if the enemy has low armour, shieldbreaker increases your damage by more than if they high armour.

[dreamex]

No, since positive armor scales linear. I agree with most of the rest of your post, especially his need for mana early-mid game and your skill build.

This is true,

But the percentage benefit is less valuable when considering DPS improvements.

Shieldbreaker is MOST effective against low armor high HP heroes.

Shield breaker reduces effective HP by 36% of their MAX HP against all heroes that have positive armor after it's reduction.

Against a hero with 8 armor and 5000 HP he has effectively 7400 e.HP, Shieldbreaker will deprive him of 1800 e.HP.

Against a hero with 48 armor and 3800 HP he has effectively 14,744 e.HP, a shieldbreaker will deprive him of 1368 e.HP.

Stacking armor makes shieldbreaker less effective as a DAMAGE option, though the effect it has does not diminish.

The time to die and effective HP benefits remain the same, but against high armor heroes options like Riftshards begin to outshine it.

[kuroYMT]

Enemies buying armor is not a counter to shieldbreaker. Not many players buy armor to mitigate shieldbreaker, and it would be quite dumb to do that on all heroes. What can you make with the +14 armor item, assault cuirass or shiva's guard? Yeah and if the enemy does buy armor, they would have bought the armor regardless if the enemy had a shieldbreaker.

Shieldbreaker is by far the best gold per dmg item.

[Hurfdurf]

You made a big deal over such a shitty guide? Nice job :D

[Voidi]

Stacking armor makes shieldbreaker less effective as a DAMAGE option, though the effect it has does not diminish.

The time to die and effective HP benefits remain the same, but against high armor heroes options like Riftshards begin to outshine it.

I'm not following. Are you referring to the flat +60 damage increase as part of the item?

[ElementUser]

Bye TBT :(

[Extreme_Cake]

Why do you say that Shieldbreaker is less effective as enemies stack more armor?
Meh, easy mistake to make if you don't care about the armour mechanics. Also, bye TBT and thanks for all the guides.

[Volcarr]

Enemies buying armor is not a counter to shieldbreaker. Not many players buy armor to mitigate shieldbreaker, and it would be quite dumb to do that on all heroes. What can you make with the +14 armor item, assault cuirass or shiva's guard? Yeah and if the enemy does buy armor, they would have bought the armor regardless if the enemy had a shieldbreaker.

Shieldbreaker is by far the best gold per dmg item.

don't forget that damage isn't the only thing madman requires...

as well there are better damage items, they may cost more but regardless deso/shieldbreaker is not that amazing of an item and is overrated imo, its good for games that seem to be ending soon and you just want to get the most out of your money before it does. but Mkb or butterfly give more than a shieldbreaker, more damage and/or other things.

with this build going frostwolfs skull, first game i played i went 17 - 1 in a non-em game. my hp was sitting at about 2.5k with lifesteal. i think once you have the health and mana to support a pure damage item deso is great though.

[dreamex]

Enemies buying armor is not a counter to shieldbreaker. Not many players buy armor to mitigate shieldbreaker, and it would be quite dumb to do that on all heroes. What can you make with the +14 armor item, assault cuirass or shiva's guard? Yeah and if the enemy does buy armor, they would have bought the armor regardless if the enemy had a shieldbreaker.

Shieldbreaker is by far the best gold per dmg item.

This is an old hyperbole, Shield Breaker is good gold for damage but it's not far and away better than everything out their. The ratios are pretty close for the most part actually.

It is not about armor items, it's about base armor the opponent has and their potential loadout.

Agi heroes have high armor growth and often buy wingbow and other raw agi items taking their armor through the roof.

Heroes like Lich, Dazzle, etc have big armor buffs that greatly reduce the effect of Shield Breaker relative to other damage items

Simple linear equation of a typical target with around 2k health (pretty average for most heroes to make by end of game) and we'll model it around madman since he's the topic at hand who has about 135 average damage per hit naked at level 25. We'll assume that you have your crit and ult skills learned and equate Savage Mace to Shieldbreaker to Wingbow in terms of value.

With Savage Mace:
e.HP = 2000 * [1 + (0.06 * armor)]
dmg = 135 + 115
attacks per second = 2.02

With Shield Breaker:
e.HP = 2000 * [1 + (0.06 * armor - 6)]
dmg = 135 + 60
attacks per second = 1.93

With Wingbow:
e.HP = 2000 * [1 + (0.06 * armor)]
dmg = 135 + 60
attacks per second = 2.29

Damage to kill is given by:

e.HP = (Dmg) * modifier * attacks

Time to kill is given by:

attacks / attacks per second

@10 Armor (pretty much everyone will have this off stat growth alone)

e.HP = 3200 (2480)

Naked:

3200 = (135) * 1.28 * x
x = 3200 / 172.8
x = 18.5 attacks to kill in 9.57 seconds

Savage Mace:

3200 = (135 + 115) * 1.28 * x
x = 3200 / 320
x = 10.0 attacks to kill in 4.94 seconds
48.35% improvement for 5400g or 0.90% / 100g

Shieldbreaker:

2480 = (135 + 60) * 1.28 * x
x = 2480 / 249.6
x = 9.9 attacks to kill in 5.13 seconds
46.35% improvement for 4400g or 1.05% / 100g

Wingbow:

3200 = (135 + 60) * 1.28 * x
x = 3200 / 249.6
x = 12.8 attacks to kill in 5.60 seconds
41.45% improvement for 6000g or 0.69% / 100g

@15 Armor (Most heroes have this by end of game)

e.HP = 3800 (3080)

Naked:

3800 = (135) * 1.28 * x
x = 3800 / 172.8
x = 22.0 attacks to kill in 11.36 seconds

Savage Mace:

3800 = (135 + 115) * 1.28 * x
x = 3800 / 320
x = 11.9 attacks to kill in 5.87 seconds
48.35% improvement for 5400g or 0.90% / 100g

Shieldbreaker:

3080 = (135 + 60) * 1.28 * x
x = 3080 / 249.6
x = 12.3 attacks to kill in 6.38 seconds
43.89% improvement for 4400g or 1.00% / 100g

Wingbow:

3800 = (135 + 60) * 1.28 * x
x = 3800 / 249.6
x = 15.2 attacks to kill in 6.65 seconds
41.45% improvement for 6000g or 0.69% / 100g

I hope you notice a trend on the effectiveness of Shieldbreaker with respects to DPS, since its benefit comes from chopping a PERCENTAGE of a person's MAX HP from their Effective HP as you see their e. HP rise but m. HP stay consistent you'll see that the benefits of its effect start to diminish.

I'm getting lazy so I'm running this through a spreadsheet now:

@20 armor (Most agi heroes have this by end of game)

SM - 48.35% (0.90% / 100g)
SB - 42.10% (0.96% / 100g)
WB - 41.45% (0.69% / 100g)

@25 armor (Anyone who buys frostfield/demonic or has Lich on their team)

SM - 48.35% (0.90% / 100g)
SB - 40.74% (0.93% / 100g)
WB - 41.45% (0.69% / 100g)

@30 armor (Anyone who buys one of the aforementioned items and has lich and other armor buffs on their team, or agi heroes with lich on their team)

SM - 48.35% (0.90% / 100g)
SB - 39.67% (0.90% / 100g)
WB - 41.45% (0.69% / 100g)

@35 armor (Pretty much the most you'll ever see in a game and should include the buff given by Dazzle as well as other effects)

SM - 48.35% (0.90% / 100g)
SB - 38.81% (0.88% / 100g)
WB - 41.45% (0.69% / 100g)

So you can see that although it's fairly unlikely you'll see people with 30 or 35 armor in a typical game (where shieldbreaker breaks even and then loses ground respectively in our model) -- you can expect that the margin of gap is not gigantic when considering gold per damage spent as many people often phrase.

I attached the spreadsheet I mixed up below.

It can be used to model all different heroes and weapon choices against average targets within a game, just change things like BAT, base damage etc.

Right now it doesn't support modifiers applied to base damage only (ie arachna aura, hammerstorm ulti, etc) but you can just apply those to the calculated base damage ahead of time and factor that in manually. I'll expand it later on.

Fill in the pink fields with what your target looks like and the green fields with what you look like.

For Charged Hammer, I took the 200 damage proc @ 20% chance as an average 40 Magical damage per attack modified by your target's magic armor (base is 25%, making it 30 damage). Then I extrapolated that as a percentage of your target's Max HP (in the case of 2000 HP like in the example that 30 damage done is equivalent to a loss of 1.5% or 0.015 modifier) and then multiplied that against your target's Effective HP (in the case of 15 armor that would be 3800 e.HP) to calculate your damage against e.HP with the Charged
Hammer proc (in this case it would be 3800 * 0.015 = 57)

Against high armored opponents Charged Hammer is one of the best items you can buy to improve your DPS.

Let me know what you guys think.

Edit: Messed up the charged hammer calculation in the spreadsheet.

Added Mock, Runed Axe, Doombringer.

Mock is calculated as its DPS over your attack speed so that it's applied as bonus damage to your attacks for the purpose of accurately calculating your number of attacks required to kill a target even though the effect of Mock goes beyond needing to attack.

The blue fields can be filled in with the same digits if you wish to calculate for another item and factor in Mock/Charged Hammer already (add 40 to the blue column corresponding and add the base stats to your green stats.)

[`Cherry`]

pretty good guide, liked it.. except the item build part that was a bit weird =o

[Aeonstorm]

I always used to get whispering helm, then shieldbreaker, then symbol of rage. I can see why the sustainer and glowstone is good, but is the runed axe necessary? I reckon the shrunken head is also somewhat situational: if you're pwning lots of heads, there's not that much need, cos you're so high lvl. Also, is symbol or frostwolf's better for lategame? To me, symbol seems a bit more useful, cos if ur facing a carry 1v1, the lifesteal will win the fight for you, whereas the frostwolf seem's more useful when you're ganking a weaker hero who's trying to run away.

[china]

This made me lol, madman's best item, allows him to both initiate and counter opposing initiators. The only reason you rarely see this item on me when I play him is due to laning with fairy.

Since when does silencing a single hero = initiating? Stunning/hard disabling = initiating.

I don't play Silencer and ult saying "I initiated." Madman can initiate with his stun. All that Hellflower does is redirect gold better spent elsewhere. You can counter opposing initiators by killing them in 4-5 hits, after stunning them, when you build a DPS core item.

Otherwise, the point stands. I don't silence one person and say I've initiated with Hellflower.

[Akavir]

^ I think what he means is he silences the enemy initiator and then beats the enemy team to the initial hits himself. But if that's the case i don't understand why he doesn't just build sheepstick instead, if disabling the initiator is what he wants then kuldra should be 10x better than a mere silence.

[Demetrious]

^ I think what he means is he silences the enemy initiator and then beats the enemy team to the initial hits himself. But if that's the case i don't understand why he doesn't just build sheepstick instead, if disabling the initiator is what he wants then kuldra should be 10x better than a mere silence.

Because Kuldra's lasts 3.5 as opposed to 5 and gives less attack speed and less damage, in addition to being harder to buy in small pieces (which also helps keep yourself low on gold in case you die) and providing the 20% damage boost?

[Volcarr]

Because Kuldra's lasts 3.5 as opposed to 5 and gives less attack speed and less damage, in addition to being harder to buy in small pieces (which also helps keep yourself low on gold in case you die) and providing the 20% damage boost?

silencing the initiator means that your initiating.. madman is not the first one to go in, unless you are against no nukes like pyro, behemoth, tb, etc.. you will die surely if you go in first with an orchid and no health items. And either way it is not madmans job to initiate or to silence their initiator seeing as hes the carry not the support making kuldra also a bad choice. if you really need a silence to beat a team then you have a bad makeup, very bad.

[TurpinoS]

Since when does silencing a single hero = initiating? Stunning/hard disabling = initiating.

I don't play Silencer and ult saying "I initiated." Madman can initiate with his stun. All that Hellflower does is redirect gold better spent elsewhere. You can counter opposing initiators by killing them in 4-5 hits, after stunning them, when you build a DPS core item.

Otherwise, the point stands. I don't silence one person and say I've initiated with Hellflower.

Ahaha thanks for that comment, someone had to laugh about the ''initiating with hellflower''.

Always love how hellflower is always the item of : '' Hey, my hero needs mana regen and his a carry, but I really dont know what to get, oh wait, its written damage, attack speed, mana regen and more damage on that item, ILL GRAB IT''

Spending over 5K gold on an item that nearly doesnt give any dps and doesnt give any form of HP on a Agi Carry (squichy maybe ?). Always made me laugh..


OT. Ever since you first told me about the fact you considered Runed Axe + Shrunken Head + Frostwulf on Madman Ive been using it and its done wonders. Thanks for the Walkthrought

[Akavir]

Because Kuldra's lasts 3.5 as opposed to 5 and gives less attack speed and less damage, in addition to being harder to buy in small pieces (which also helps keep yourself low on gold in case you die) and providing the 20% damage boost?

The Dps increase you should be getting somewhere else, and if you're "initiating" with an item that means you'll be moving in immediately after using it, so i doubt the duration is too big a deal. (also i think carries should always have the most gold the possibly can at all times, especially when they die because their team will need them to buy back or else the huge rez timer might mean gg)

But remember that this is just in the hipothetical case that the madman would even WANT to disable. I completely agree with other posters that if madman needs to disable/initiate himself then the team makeup is just bad.

[Tasdingo1]

well one thing fo so with this build is that madman can only start jungling when he gets his battlefury which is by around level 12 or so.
I actually play the same itembuild but i just replace glowstone with a bracer so this build isnt anything special at all

[Mueslio`]

Good guide, will try it out when the EU servers are fixed.

[thugg_life]

Come back soon.

[Clup]

What about Charged Hammer on Madman.

thoughts?

[eyahm8]

Good guide except i wouldn't go for runed unless you are farming/ganking, really, really well.

[Taffer]

You list Hellflower as a horrible choice, yet top players (watch finals) use it to transition into carry. Doesn't give you much credibility.

[sr8]

Who is a top player? Glorify? ROFL.

If by top player you mean Loda, who utterly destroyed fyc (You call them top team?) with runed axe Madman (steamboots, runed axe, shrunken head, wingbow, daemonic breastplate in under an hour), then yea ok.

The competitive scene for HoN is still piss weak. But unfortunately people are too dumb to realize this, hence why we have people like Glorify who have a couple of good tourney games and then instantly say "We are a top-tier team, I am one of the best players in the world, bow down to me since HoN is likely the only thing I will ever be good at in my own miserable lifetime".

Bloody pathetic. I am looking for players with reputation who I know from experience can play properly, not new people on the block. Loda plays Madman properly, because he actually plays him LIKE A HARD CARRY. Chu` plays SW properly, none of this rushing hotbl bullshit just because Solace happened to turn around one game against WHP with it which caused everyone to instantly believe this item was core on SW.

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=7542650

Also check out all the games in the WHP vs. Five finals, AFAIK WHP is the only team that heavily favors steamboots to EM, basically because they know that survivability is HUGE, but ofc we still have a bunch of retards living in another time where EM was core on every hero and as such are now using EM on heroes on SW and PR and wondering why they die in 3 seconds. Which just goes to show the weakness of the competitive scene.

O that's cute I was browsing through the replay section and guess which item is a core on Madman by competant carry players like Testie, Loda, Tabako and dodo` 99% of the time?

Runed axe.

How many times have I seen hellflower in those replays?

Like 0.

[Pheesh]

It is curious to see enhanced marchers on madman though...I wouldn't think he needs the unit walking or attack speed.

[Wolfsong]

What about Charged Hammer on Madman.

thoughts?

Yes I am surprised that TBT hasn't considered Charged Hammer. It scales well with MM's ultimate: the faster the attack speed the higher chance of lightning proc within a given time.

A MM quad kill Succ + Elec + Tree+ Voodoo Jester within 6 seconds with runed axe + charged hammer at 43mins:

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=10940018

:)

[sr8]

Charged hammer is just an item that isn't particularly strong in general. You can get it if you want, but the boost in farm is absolutely minimal if you already have runed axe. That is not to dismiss it completely, but the bottom line is, are you willing to spend that kind of gold for the effect that charged hammer brings to the field? Is it worth the gold over other items Madman could be going after his core (can it ever replace wingbow/savage mace/frostwolf skull?). Typically, no.

Steamboots runed axe shrunken head is an absolute core, glowstone is thrown in there for good measure, it is not absolutely required to succeed but it is highly recommended given Madman's playstyle. The frostwolf skull+ savage mace combination isn't core, it is luxury, but it is a logical luxury, so if you don't want to use those items, then don't, use whatever works for you, and your team, just use your head and it will be fine.

[Extreme_Cake]

The only 'top' Dota players who've touched HoN are Loda and Remstar, aren't they? And BTW, Glorify is a good player. Not one of the very best, but he still deserves credit as being an extremely good player, just as QuC are a genuinely good team.

[sr8]

The only 'top' Dota players who've touched HoN are Loda and Remstar, aren't they? And BTW, Glorify is a good player. Not one of the very best, but he still deserves credit as being an extremely good player, just as QuC are a genuinely good team.

Glorify is the same person that never go inhumane nature on SR, maxes out blade before taunt on legionaire, and rushes mock on maliken, which is amusing seeing how whispering helm -> creep stack -> shrunken head is a million times better.

Luckily there is a natural selection in HoN/dota, where the people who think they are better then they actually are die out rather quickly. Glorify, Fenald and Poolshark are some of the most arrogant players I have seen, especially given their level of skill, but they won't be finishing top in any tourneys any time soon. A real shame since the rest of QuC are chill people.

[TurpinoS]

You list Hellflower as a horrible choice, yet top players (watch finals) use it to transition into carry. Doesn't give you much credibility.

Wait
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
LOL

If ''ONE'' player of a team that is doing ''okay'' (this is not an opinion on the team in question, it is just to state that theres better and theres worse) on the competitive HoN scene which is pretty small is what you call ''TOP PLAYERS'', well I just dont know what to tell you.

Off topic : There is probably not more then 10 players that play HoN and that managed to play in IHCS (where the top dota players were when it was alive) or that did any real big achievements in DOTA, so dont go spreading the world ''TOP PLAYERS'' everywhere just for people that scrim a lot. I know this is not DOTA, but I dont think someone that wasnt TOP in Dota can be considered TOP in HoN.

[McManBag]

If I'm wanting to utilize gank burst dmg via roll/stalk early, then sustainer and treads are the way to go. Fast way to outlvl the opposition.

If wanting to farm your face off, then go 2x stalk and max barrel, but go for early crit and rush Whispering Helm. Use either a dominated Ice Ogre to help your team whilst you're farming and leaving them to defend/push, or get a catman/mino and stack ancients asap. Once stalk is maxed and you have your first item + boots you can get a little gungho and farm the opponents neuts, leaving your own for another hero.

Either way, Shrunken Head is a no brainer, just as Runed Axe/Lifesteal + Crit is a no-brainer.

Frostwolf is good for hunting, whereas Savage is better for toe2toe standoffs with other DPS heroes. Breastplate ensures your DPS output is superior. Geometers Bane stops you getting Immobilised as well as giving stats and DPS.


And sometimes, it's better just to get a Heart and outlive them cos you crit that..much...harder... than the rest. If Shrunken Head doesn't fix your problems, then it's a ball breaking decision.. do I out Hit them, or do I out Live them?

Last but not least, I'd never overlook Barbed Armour on ANY hero.. the amount of times Torturer/Puppet/Arachna/Chronos/Magmus/Sand or any crit wannabe has killed themselves.... :)

[Proph3t1]

You list Hellflower as a horrible choice, yet top players (watch finals) use it to transition into carry. Doesn't give you much credibility.



If the top DotA teams switched and played HoN on a full time basis (unlike Loda), practiced, etc. they would easily beat any team right now that HoN has to offer (no disrespect to 5, whp, etc.)



KS, AEON, Puppy's new team, etc. would all just torch the field.




Hellflower is useful in certain situations on certain heroes. For example, Yamateh went Hellflower/Blink/Guinsoo against AEON at SMM, because there were alot of blinkers in that game that he needed to catch.

[Lethe]

I still believe Hon's competitive side is underdeveloped. Not that I expected more, given it is in beta, but I think this is obvious.

[kuroYMT]

pretty useless guide

[sr8]

meh was never intended to be a guide. Basically an item build with logical justifications. I don't want to exactly teach people how to play madman not hard to figure out, just practice.

[Extreme_Cake]

May I ask why this guide dismissed Shieldbreaker? It's more damage than a savage mace if they don't have evasion.

[Stickyrolls]

Frost wolf on mm when he doesn't need a slow??? Hellflower is bad on him when it actually gives him everything he needs? Bad guide is bad. Oh yeah shield breaker is DEVASTATING on him. I do build runed axe on him though. After this if im getting disabled or nuked a lot I go for shrunken head. If not I go for whispering helm than shrunken head. Shrunken head+runed axe+symbol of rage=UNSTOPABLE! Litterally 3v1 the enemy.

[Integria]

Harkon's Blade isn't useless on him -- it's just entirely situational.

[Codex5scout]

i really like the build's focus on rune axe as it gives a lot of farming power, but i can never get madman to survive regardless of how much damage i output. one game i had (don't know all the names of the HoN items) vladimir's offering, and rune axe, and 2 wraith bands, and when i go into a team clash, no matter what i would die. maybe i would either kill one guy or dish out a lot of damage, but no matter what, madman WILL die. Is getting Vanguard or Cloak any good? cause that money spent on that stuff will hinder potential sheildbreaker or brutilizer money

[Green_Ghost]

I build him the following:

Iron Shield
Bottle or Power Supply
Steamboots
Soulscream Ring x2
Shrunken Head
Shieldbreaker or Diffusal or Savage Mace

end of game

steamboots (first int, agi after)
whispering helm (15% lifesteal :P)
brutalizer (stun)
charged hammer ( do you remember the old imba STEAM TURRET?)

optional:
frostburn

[RogerDodger]

steamboots (first int, agi after)
whispering helm (15% lifesteal :P)
brutalizer (stun)
charged hammer ( do you remember the old imba STEAM TURRET?)

optional:
frostburn
And you'll hit 150dmg with 15k of items.

[kirbyruled]

Wow I can't believe this invaluable guide is 3rd page. Bump. People need to know how to build MMan right.

[Kjaska]

you should post a couple of exemplary madman replays, kirby IMO

[kirbyruled]

you should post a couple of exemplary madman replays, kirby IMO

Here's two old games (I don't Madman as much these days, waiting for S2 to undo some of those unneeded nerfs :3):

Scrim against QCo:
http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=21205446
21205446

Scrim against PIK: http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=21189095
21189095

If you want more my history has plenty. These are the only old replays of me I've bothered watching so far.

[Kjaska]

which carry do you prefer now?

[kirbyruled]

which carry do you prefer now?

Chronos is pretty imba (at the moment, next patch will tone him down a bit I'm sure), so when I try hard I usually play Chronos. Otherwise, I'm a fan of Swiftblade these days, although I doubt I'll ever use im 40 times like I did for The Madman...

Next patch if I'm pleased with the buffs to Madman I'll probably start playing him almost every game again, right now its just really uncomfortable in a lot of ways. You have to switch your treads @ the end of every non-contact stalk, and the hero feels weak, slow and archaic...

[Kjaska]

don't you like zephyr? or is he banned every time you play?

[kirbyruled]

don't you like zephyr? or is he banned every time you play?

Whenever I play Zephyr, children weep and then suddenly start laughing everytime I misclick Gust...so no, I don't play Zephyr.

[kirbyruled]

bump

[arieLOL]

Hatchet + health regen (dont buy ****in mana regen early, if you are spamming your skills in lane you are doing it wrong)
Iron Shield - optional if you are taking harass to get farm can be built at shop, I find it more effective at getting CS than a bracer
Bottle + Steam Boots
Shrunken Head

Congrats, with your crit and ulti you are already tearing up their team in battles with shrunken. Focus their int/support heroes, their team wont have the auto attack damage to drive you off and once you take them out your team can push the lane / clean up the opposing teams carries if they are dumb enough to stick around with their steamboots + sustainer->runed axe.

Icing on the cake:
Savage Mace, no reason to get a wingbow first, savage mace gives better damage especially since you have ridiculous attack speed and thus proc rate when completed and also during buildup.You dont need the attackspeed from a wingbow or the evasion in most cases.

you shouldnt be building anything afterwards cause the game should be over, if for some reason it isnt, go symbol of rage.

Subpar item builds:
Not getting a shrunken head first-- you are target #1, if you dont have magic immunity you will get focused and raped. You can skip this if you have a jere keeping shell on you and watch people cry when madman starts unloading on them 25 minutes in with a mace.

Getting lifesteal before shrunken/savage-- this early its your supports job to keep you alive and you shouldnt be getting in extended auto attack battles with opposing carries, its your job to put out as much damage as possible preferrably on disabled targets.

Buying a brutalizer/frostburn/skadi. you have a great chase mechanism and an aoe stun, why are you getting a stun/slow. If you had more damage you wouldnt be needing to chase down idiots waiting for a bash proc. While the Skadi gives health it costs way too much, put the money into a symbol of rage once you have your core items (bottle, steam boots, shrunken, savage).

Item builds that can work but that I feel arent cost/time effective:

Runed axe, ya you heard me, a bottle gives you all the mana/hp regen you need. I feel a sustainer is a crutch for people who spam their skills to farm. Mana management + better damage item = win. Madmans AoE stun makes him effective earlier than other carries, the onyl threat to him are high powered nukes/disables, runed axe doesnt address this, shrunken does. A runed axe delays your peak effectiveness although eventually makes up for it with enough hard farming. I'd consider it agaisnt a team with a lot of turtle potential with their own carry who is avoiding ganks well and a team that is utter fail. Other situations also arise where it can be effective, ie. having a tempest, having ophelia stack the ancients for you (i dont think its cost-time effective for you to stack/farm the ancients, you need runed axe+ helm and that just sets back your core items so much)Toss the money from this into getting your shrunken fast.

Bloodstone, with the recent buff this can be viable again but requires way to many conditions, I'd only consider it with a strong jungle carry on the team getting good farm where I would be more effective spamming spells and supporting him than going DPS carry.

Nullstone: again I have seen this work wonderfully in the past against lineups with limited disable and with the recent buff I think it became slightly more viable. Really though its way too much money to spend on a survivablity item especially when a shrunken is so effective. I have only seen this work against unorganized teams with limited aoe stuns but with high powered nukes.I have a feeling any decent team even lacking aoe stuns will have the foresight to burn the nullstone with a worthless spell.

[kirbyruled]

What's the point of writing all this up when TinyBlkTears run through is better and doesn't recommend Brutalizer? :O

[Afasia]

I really prefer rushing that runed axe. Its not like you can do anything before 25 minutes anyways. And by farming runed axe under twenty minutes you come way ahead instead of spending money on hp/mana you wont need. This will bite you back of course if your team is doing what ever. Then again. If you do have madman in your team you probably built your team around it. Lifetube helps to lane early on, manatube gets those berserks off so you can forest/lane after sending your sitter away. The way I see it you wont be much use in big fights early on so just being mia and farming for the very last moment or even skipping a whole fight will benefit your team more. Your farm gets that much better with cleave and thus you will finish your items faster making you able to push for a victory faster, something you want from a hard carry: as fast farm as possible.
If you get dominated early on in the lane, your team gets picked off in a limbo line and towers pop everywhere you would had probably lost anyways. On a dead even games I'd say it is really important to work that runed axe to get go. If you gave your enemy the advantage you dont run madman.

But this is just a small aspect of your guide. I learned a lot and I always had troubles justifying any one skillbuild, yours is a really solid one I can now base my own adjustments on, and yeah. The barrell roll range is really nice and stalk does not do that much more damage.

Good read!

[TKDSUSDK]

I'm pretty sure I've seen some really high level players using Hellflower on madman..

[kirbyruled]

bump. And no QuC Angel isn't a really high level player.

[TKDSUSDK]

no clue who quc angel is

[kirbyruled]

no clue who quc angel is

Only guy to ever get Hellflower on Madman in comp.

[Atrim]

Very nice MM build, a bit different to my own, but I can understand why now. Will go put into action..

[Hi]

I agree with the skill build, but however i strongly suggest using the 2x bracers, steamboots, bottle, shrunken head, whispering helm, runed axe build more.

For your survivability ur relying on glowstone, which is 1200 gold, meaning u must farm. 2x bracers u can build steadily.

[kirbyruled]

bump

[Juke_Box]

I notice frostburn was not mentioned at all in this guide. I'm expecting this is because it was yet to be implemented. anyone care to comment on it? I like the idea of splitting it into frost wolfs and geomancers later. makes it sound viable for sure.

[Juke_Box]

Hatchet + health regen (dont buy ****in mana regen early, if you are spamming your skills in lane you are doing it wrong)



I stopped reading your post as soon as you said that.

honestly, how can you justify that? a few barrel rolls will harass many lane opponents off lane, and secure your farm for quite some time. this equals a) less cash spent on hp regen items, b) less chance dying and c) a gold gap between you and the enemy. thats what you want. early game the harass can send the weaker players back to their fountain, also giving you a level advantage, which most people know can significantly tip a game's outcome.

[kirbyruled]

I stopped reading your post as soon as you said that.

honestly, how can you justify that? a few barrel rolls will harass many lane opponents off lane, and secure your farm for quite some time. this equals a) less cash spent on hp regen items, b) less chance dying and c) a gold gap between you and the enemy. thats what you want. early game the harass can send the weaker players back to their fountain, also giving you a level advantage, which most people know can significantly tip a game's outcome.

Er I don't know Barrel Roll isn't really the most economic move ever, better to stalk for safe CK for double CK while harassing heroes and saving 130 mana. Mana Pots are fine on Madman either way though, he does have mana problems after all...

Oh and as for the above post by you Frostburn < Frostwolf on Madman, basically. The mana/HP boost of Frostwolf is good, so is the IAS slow (weakens ability to fightback), and the benefit Madman gets from the +ms of Frostburn is low.

[Chubs`]

Hi, nice guide.

I'm sorry, i'm not complete sold on getting runed axe first. In my opinion, it slows down your core essential (shrunken head) too far. I do realize that runed axe will spead up your farming, but wouldn't that delay your shrunken head and thus your effectiveness in team battles. I feel like if you get runed axe, you wouldn't get shrunken head until 25~30 minutes in, barring deaths from ganks. By then, I feel that the opposing team would have a solid advantage.

[Blessed_]

Most of your damage will come from stalk/barrel roll early on, so you really want the Mana regen, whereas Shrunken head would give you really little advantage when you have it at 20 since your attacks don't do too much damage.

[kirbyruled]

Most of your damage will come from stalk/barrel roll early on, so you really want the Mana regen, whereas Shrunken head would give you really little advantage when you have it at 20 since your attacks don't do too much damage.

This. Also TinyBlkTear's explanation quoted off the top of my head with probably some errors: "Rushed Shrunken Head: 'Believe me when I say that your enemies will not care that you are magic immune if you are still struggling with your own mana."

[MintPanda1]

This build really works wonders. Going for a glowstone is a really top notch idea, and it covers a lot of mm's weaknesses. The only bad thing is that I find mm to be quite a weak hero until he's farmed up runed axe, which can be a very hard thing to do considering all the pre-requisites, and if the opposing team consists of hard pushing heroes, it's quite difficult to pull off.

I simply think mm lacks a lot of advantages other semi carries have during mid game, and I don't know how to cover this aspect, or is his role simply more of a late carry?

[kirbyruled]

This build really works wonders. Going for a glowstone is a really top notch idea, and it covers a lot of mm's weaknesses. The only bad thing is that I find mm to be quite a weak hero until he's farmed up runed axe, which can be a very hard thing to do considering all the pre-requisites, and if the opposing team consists of hard pushing heroes, it's quite difficult to pull off.

I simply think mm lacks a lot of advantages other semi carries have during mid game, and I don't know how to cover this aspect, or is his role simply more of a late carry?

Well pre patch like, he was a hard carry who had a good stun early game and was very mobile, so he was strong all game. Now he's just a forgotten relic of a hero, overnerfed while everything is buffed into stupidity. Madman is basically never picked in the BD games I see...let alone BP. So he's kinda like :dark::sand: I guess, except from what I've seen even less popular.

[jay`t]

kirb i wonder if that forgotten relic you speak of is player perception as opposed to actual weakness

[kirbyruled]

kirb i wonder if that forgotten relic you speak of is player perception as opposed to actual weakness

No he actually sucks, its not just perception. Why do you think he's never picked in good games (not even BD games where the pool is limiting)? Because he is bad right now.

[jay`t]

no idea, just wondering your opinion, sir

[kirbyruled]

no idea, just wondering your opinion, sir

Opinion given :3

[bunnyhunter]

i wonder how u carry with:
symbol and frostwolfs, those ones are bad dps items,
btw frostwolf already gives hp and durability(or symbol does, whatever u got)
madman can chase and he got a stun to get out enough damn damage with 2 savage maces instead of those 2 useles items..

im not the madman player but thats my opinion.

furthermore -.- u say sheepstick and daemonic is viable but shieldbreaker and basher not (with madmans imense atk speed)

dont u like carry items?

[kirbyruled]

Um you get Runed Axe and you have a crit and treads and your ult so you can get the items you're talking about because your DPS is fine.

[Mindfucked1]

most of the guide is still up to date, but i would prefer it if tiny could update some minor things, like the new frostburn and the changed recipe of frostwolfs skull.

[Blessed_]

steamboots, runed, whispering, shrunken, frostburn, disassemble frostburn for either skadi or geo as first, use the other part for the other one, satanic (out of whispering obviously)

leaves you open with that one utility slot you need, i.e. token or tps

[kirbyruled]

Bump, Madman will be a bit more like before next patch (OMG SPOILERZZZ) so people need to know how to play him.

[Lethe]

Okie time to check up on this guide lol.

Agree with Kirby here Madman does kinda suck atm but hey he's getting some deserved buffs soon. Item-wise Madman hasn't changed much, if at all, realize that once maxed out Madman's dps is only beaten by tDL's and a Puppet Master with Harkon's. This dps comes exclusively from auto-attack with berserk, so you need to be able to deal that damage effeciently. In this scenerio, 30% ms slow ultimately gives you more then 15% ms slow and +12 % ms to yourself.

A pretty good perk of frostburn is the ms boost, which is already not a huge deal on Madman. Frostburn is ok but I just feel frostwolf skull is better on Madman.

Carrying is not all about dps. Many people think it is, which is why you see Chronos players rush in with like 1200 hp, die and then proceed to blame their team. Surviving is just as important as dps, and anyone who has seen me play a carry hero know I rarely have less then 2k hp on the said hero by 50 mins. Aka i hate playing a glass cannon. If you're forced to do something like rush runed axe on a carry hero you damn better take care of your vitality immediately after, all competitive carry players do this, and with good reason. Runed axe alone will last you for a damn long time dps wise, frostwolf skull and shrunken head will allow you to deal dps easier. Finish savage mace and max out levels and we are looking at ~1100 dps through two dps items. For the sake of striking a balance between dps and vitality, that is as good as it gets.

[Lethe]

Runthrough updated, hopefully it'll tide us all over for a while

[kirbyruled]

I find it kind of sad how I haven't played Madman in god knows how long and yet he is still my most used hero. I need to play him this patch, good to see him back up to speed (okay invulnerability on barrel roll would be nice but whatever). But yea good update, not much changed but then again the hero itself was barely used (pubs/inhouses/scrims/tournies, incredibly low usage) at all for the longest time so thats not suprising.

edit: Hurray, MSI used Madman in GR tournament and won!

[Lethe]

^ Ye lol. The previous nerf on madman just made us realize that with the debuff madman was complete crap.

Now that he's brought up to speed and can take berserk much easier at level 11 I personally think he's a decent carry.

But besides that nothing has really changed, pretty ez update on my part