Pushing early - bad?

[Deoin]

Hi!

So I went mid (as legion) with :poll: and when I hit 6, ran top to gank, killed 2 people and proceeded to take the tower with my ulti.

Some ten minutes later the two guys who went top in my team, has died a lot, and says it is my fault. That I should have, by taking the tower, lost them a lane to farm.

At first I dismissed this as generic whine since they did pretty badly even before the tower was down, but afterwards I figured there might be something behind it after all. So here I am, asking you folks, are pushing towers that early stupid? (I proceeded to take the bot tier 1 tower next ulti, and mid ulti after that)

Thanks in advance.

[Kurpajura]

If your team is completely stupid and full of inactive, passive pushers, don't even bother to push. But if your team doesn't suck, or is atleast avg. skilled yes, you should push early
----> For the cash and experience benefit.

[Ol`Yojimbo]

Nope. You just happened to have downies.

[Demonwing]

Pushing, on the contrary, takes away a lot of map control from the other team (for example, taking hellbourne top tower takes away a lot of their control over the forest). This makes it more difficult to farm for the enemy in that area.

Of course, pub players tend to be more passive than sloths when it comes to that type of thing, so the map control is generally wasted and the only result is a pushed creepwave because no one static farms.

Still, pushing is almost always better than not pushing even with the above issues.

[HollowMask]

Hi!

So I went mid (as legion) with :poll: and when I hit 6, ran top to gank, killed 2 people and proceeded to take the tower with my ulti.

Some ten minutes later the two guys who went top in my team, has died a lot, and says it is my fault. That I should have, by taking the tower, lost them a lane to farm.

At first I dismissed this as generic whine since they did pretty badly even before the tower was down, but afterwards I figured there might be something behind it after all. So here I am, asking you folks, are pushing towers that early stupid? (I proceeded to take the bot tier 1 tower next ulti, and mid ulti after that)

Thanks in advance.

In my own opinion you played your cards incorrectly. They in fact are right to SOME degree.

In my own opinion, again, an ex-dota veteran, I would have taken the mid tower first and foremost, and I wouldn't have even gone to ANY other lane until that tower was demolished.

Then I would have examined the situation and seen whether or not the other lanes NEEDED assistance, because if they don't NEED a gank or a tower push, it's far more effective to continue pushing the mid lane. Pollywog is after all the single most effective 1v1 hero in the game, and can really only be matched by somebody who knows precisely what they are doing at all times, are = or > more skilled than you, and a small luck factor (IE: :moon::plag::devo:)

Removing the 2nd mid tower early on (you technically don't even have to destroy it, as long as you place offensive wards after destroying the first) gives you a much stronger position on the map as you're allowed to place offensive wards and gain a stronger position. I know what I just did.

As Pollywog mid, it's really up to YOU to carry your team to mid game and depending on your skill level, even late game. It all comes down to WARDS - WARDS - WARDS.

Skill Build: Max Lightning, 2 skills into tongue tie, Ultimate, 1 skill into Hex, max tongue tie, then max Hex (DO NOT LEVEL UP YOUR ULTIMATE A 2nd or 3rd time, Pollywog is one of the only heroes in the game who receive a MASSIVE drawback mana requirement from levelling his ultimate, and his skill points are MUCH MORE effective into being placed into enchancing his disability spells)

1st ward (purchase with start gold, only buy 1 then) place on the Hellbourne's mid ledge overseeing the top rune @ 1:30 - 2:00. This will barely give you sight of the rune, and will give you sight of the jungle ramp and the area across the river (so there is no guessing game as to where your opponent is). Focus on denying and last hitting/harassing with lighting bolt.

2nd ward (I assume you are able to destroy the tower within the first 6-8 minutes) Put outside of the tower range of the middle tower down the center lane, (Southwest of the jungle ramp, in front of the trees) and then place a 3rd ward in the jungle plateau overseeing the camps / short lane. Then place a 4th ward on the plateau overseeing the top rune / camp (the peak, not the same place as the first ward..never place your wards in the same place throughout the game, always move them around)

Proceed to gank and then take towers, you should be able to farm a bottle to runewhore, and Post Haste for offense/defense purposes.

Notice on Boots:
Post Haste = Best Mobility
Steamboots = Best 1v1
Ghost Marchers = Unitwalking / Good Ganking
Striders = Good Mobility / Good Ganking

Conclusion: See in my opinion your method of taking the outside towers before you took the inside towers was a strategic flaw. Especially considering the defenses in the center lane are (usually) less than that of the outside lanes, considering there is (generally) one hero defending it, if that hero isn't off ganking giving you complete freedom. You want to strike them from the core of their base rather than backdoor them from the outside. Pollywog doesn't scale into late game WITHOUT items, and WITH items he scales extremely well.

The fastest i've ever won a game with Pollywog (legitimatelly won) was in 24 minutes. I took every single outside tower plus the center lane tier 3 tower within 13 minutes, took a break to recouperate my strengths and my teammates, and proceeded to push out the center raxes by 22 minutes, and taking the throne at the 24th minute.

I finished with Post Haste / SotM / Refresher / Bottle.
AGAIN NOTE: If you decide to get a Refresher to double cast ult, whatever you do, DO NOT continue levelling up your ultimate until you have a very large mana pool. If you want to practice when you can you need to mathcraft it or have a brain like mine. :P

Best of luck, sorry for taking over.

[lemonface]

lol no. thats why polly is awesome. if he wins mid you will be eating towers like pacman. and you should do so.

[Demonwing]

In my own opinion you played your cards incorrectly. They in fact are right to SOME degree.

In my own opinion, again, an ex-dota veteran, I would have taken the mid tower first and foremost, and I wouldn't have even gone to ANY other lane until that tower was demolished.

Then I would have examined the situation and seen whether or not the other lanes NEEDED assistance, because if they don't NEED a gank or a tower push, it's far more effective to continue pushing the mid lane. Pollywog is after all the single most effective 1v1 hero in the game, and can really only be matched by somebody who knows precisely what they are doing at all times, are = or > more skilled than you, and a small luck factor (IE: :moon::plag::devo:)


No half-way reasonable team will allow you to take 1st tier middle tower alone let alone 2nd tier middle tower. Regardless, this thread is not about Pollywog priest. It is about pushing.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff154/SinfulXero/HoNpaths.jpg

Let's say you are on Legion. You have a choice between outer top, bot, or mid tower.

Killing mid doesn't actually give you that much. As a result of taking mid, you have better access to the ramp leading to HB jungle and very slightly better control over your river jungle entrance, but that is it. Mid T2 after that gives almost nothing. Slightly more control over that same ramp, but as long as the other towers are up that is about it.

Taking top tower, on the other hand, gives you control over a very wide and important area of HB jungle, giving you a big foothold in the area and preventing junglers or any type of farmer to farm top easily without a full set of defensive wards. Furthermore, if you take tier two top tower, you have complete control over the jungle.

Mid towers provide HB some map control in the area, but threaten your own jungle more than provide support for HB. If your own bottom tower is up, it is very little threat.

If you take out mid, you must immediately also plan to take bot. Taking those towers is only useful if they are both down as they serve relatively redendant purposes (although not exact, of course. Mid is a more defensive tower for HB and bot is a more offensive tower).
Taking bottom tier 2 makes pushing mid tier 2 much easier. mid t2 makes pushing bot t2 easier, but not nearly as much. As such, bot t2 should be taken out before mid t2

So, for most games the order of importance for towers should be
For pushers/gankers:
Top T1, Top T2, Mid T1, Bot T1, Bot T2, Mid T2
obviously this is not always possible. You may need to take out Mid T1 before tackling Top T2, for example. This is just a very broad order to follow
For tutlers/farmers
Bot T1, Mid T1, Bot T2, Top T1, Mid T2, Top T2

[Pogona]

Sort of agree with what MaJYNA said, but I think its situational.

It's really almost never a bad thing to take a tower. Like 99% of the time its a great thing. However if the lane you are referring to had a hard carry in it, doing his best to farm, maybe it would have been a better idea to try pushing down another lane. Not a huge deal though because what you did benefits your whole team directly.

Now what happens after that is not your fault. The responsibility was on them to adapt, and if they couldn't static farm the lane well enough so that they weren't farming right next to the enemy jungle (or even put up some wards and buy tps so that they could do it safely), then that is their problem, not yours.

So I guess in short, it does matter what lane you push sometimes. It sounds like you saw an opportunity and went for it, and I'm not sure I would have done anything differently. If you have the luxury though, check out who is in the lane and think about what might happen in that lane after the tower goes down.

[DeepWaters]

In my own opinion you played your cards incorrectly. They in fact are right to SOME degree.

In my own opinion, again, an ex-dota veteran, I would have taken the mid tower first and foremost, and I wouldn't have even gone to ANY other lane until that tower was demolished.

Then I would have examined the situation and seen whether or not the other lanes NEEDED assistance, because if they don't NEED a gank or a tower push, it's far more effective to continue pushing the mid lane. Pollywog is after all the single most effective 1v1 hero in the game, and can really only be matched by somebody who knows precisely what they are doing at all times, are = or > more skilled than you, and a small luck factor (IE: :moon::plag::devo:)

Removing the 2nd mid tower early on (you technically don't even have to destroy it, as long as you place offensive wards after destroying the first) gives you a much stronger position on the map as you're allowed to place offensive wards and gain a stronger position. I know what I just did.

As Pollywog mid, it's really up to YOU to carry your team to mid game and depending on your skill level, even late game. It all comes down to WARDS - WARDS - WARDS.

Skill Build: Max Lightning, 2 skills into tongue tie, Ultimate, 1 skill into Hex, max tongue tie, then max Hex (DO NOT LEVEL UP YOUR ULTIMATE A 2nd or 3rd time, Pollywog is one of the only heroes in the game who receive a MASSIVE drawback mana requirement from levelling his ultimate, and his skill points are MUCH MORE effective into being placed into enchancing his disability spells)

1st ward (purchase with start gold, only buy 1 then) place on the Hellbourne's mid ledge overseeing the top rune @ 1:30 - 2:00. This will barely give you sight of the rune, and will give you sight of the jungle ramp and the area across the river (so there is no guessing game as to where your opponent is). Focus on denying and last hitting/harassing with lighting bolt.

2nd ward (I assume you are able to destroy the tower within the first 6-8 minutes) Put outside of the tower range of the middle tower down the center lane, (Southwest of the jungle ramp, in front of the trees) and then place a 3rd ward in the jungle plateau overseeing the camps / short lane. Then place a 4th ward on the plateau overseeing the top rune / camp (the peak, not the same place as the first ward..never place your wards in the same place throughout the game, always move them around)

Proceed to gank and then take towers, you should be able to farm a bottle to runewhore, and Post Haste for offense/defense purposes.

Notice on Boots:
Post Haste = Best Mobility
Steamboots = Best 1v1
Ghost Marchers = Unitwalking / Good Ganking
Striders = Good Mobility / Good Ganking

Conclusion: See in my opinion your method of taking the outside towers before you took the inside towers was a strategic flaw. Especially considering the defenses in the center lane are (usually) less than that of the outside lanes, considering there is (generally) one hero defending it, if that hero isn't off ganking giving you complete freedom. You want to strike them from the core of their base rather than backdoor them from the outside. Pollywog doesn't scale into late game WITHOUT items, and WITH items he scales extremely well.

The fastest i've ever won a game with Pollywog (legitimatelly won) was in 24 minutes. I took every single outside tower plus the center lane tier 3 tower within 13 minutes, took a break to recouperate my strengths and my teammates, and proceeded to push out the center raxes by 22 minutes, and taking the throne at the 24th minute.

I finished with Post Haste / SotM / Refresher / Bottle.
AGAIN NOTE: If you decide to get a Refresher to double cast ult, whatever you do, DO NOT continue levelling up your ultimate until you have a very large mana pool. If you want to practice when you can you need to mathcraft it or have a brain like mine. :P

Best of luck, sorry for taking over.


I would really love a replay of you taking a tower in 6 min. Otherwise its just hard for me to buy it...

[HollowMask]

No half-way reasonable team will allow you to take 1st tier middle tower alone let alone 2nd tier middle tower. Regardless, this thread is not about Pollywog priest. It is about pushing.

Unfortunately, I haven't exactly met anybody that had enough balls to stop me. I'm not fighting my opponents for the lane, i've already claimed ownership of it. I'm a very aggressive type of player and I force the game to revolve around me. You're right when you say that no responsible team would allow me to take control, and well that is true. I tend to find myself the target of the majority of my opponents, if not all of them, having 0 dependancy of my hero role or who i'm playing. ****, they would even focus fire me if I was playing Legionaire, I wouldn't even have to level up Taunt.

If I could use your map to draw what i'm trying to describe it would be a hell of a lot easier, but I don't really have access to that kind of software (nope, don't even have paint) Precisely right where your red line is pointing to would be exactly where I would put a ward (before or after taking the tier 1 tower) It's just of range of tower sight, and gives you vision of anybody 'walking' to the towers through the lane, gives you an idea of whether your opponent is hiding behind the bushes, or going to the forest and you can set up a gank on him based upon that.

Destroyind mid, takes the focus from the entire map, and focuses it on the 3-5 screens from your tier 1 tower into their base, and will draw the aggro from all of the players on the map towards the center allowing more successful team fights (considering their towers are already destroyed), giving your team's carry or your team's jungle a safer and more effective farm.

[HollowMask]

I would really love a replay of you taking a tower in 6 min. Otherwise its just hard for me to buy it...

If you're that interested I still remember the game.

It was where I tore blood hunter a brand new hole, denying and last hitting everythign that he could hit, tongue tieing him with my creeps to auto attack, and bolting him for a kill @ abotu level 2.

Oh, if you're completely interested why don't you search on the forums;
Tempest farms PK in 5:40, that's one of my greatest accomplishments.

[bigtfatty]

Pushing early isn't bad against the majority of teams. Taking the first set of outer towers makes TPs much less useful and allows you to control the map by pushing them in. You also get an early gold lead, especially the heroes who get the killing blows on the towers. Just go to jungle (maybe both heroes from top gang each camp together) to keep up your farm until the enemy pushes the lane back to you (MOST games people can't static farm). One thing to keep in mind, you do NOT get an XP lead. You are all gathered to push the towers while they keep heroes in the other lanes to get stronger. You make up for this with a substantial gold lead, but you have to make sure to not fall too far behind in levels, otherwise the team you pushed in will come back and roll you.

[Farosarg]

It is to your benefit always when you take a tower. Always. Not only does it give you map control and access deeper into their side, it gives them less places for them to TP, thus making the farming a lot more safer for your carries. If you take their long lane tower, just place a ward at the end of the river to that side to spot any people incoming and if some guy decides to try gank your farming carry, just kill him off. If there's too many, you can easily back out and kill a tower somewhere else.

And if they can't control the lane well enough to keep the lane close to the t1 then that's too bad. They shouldn't need handholding with that kind of trivial things...

[Ridemed]

Skill Build: Max Lightning, 2 skills into tongue tie, Ultimate, 1 skill into Hex, max tongue tie, then max Hex (DO NOT LEVEL UP YOUR ULTIMATE A 2nd or 3rd time, Pollywog is one of the only heroes in the game who receive a MASSIVE drawback mana requirement from levelling his ultimate, and his skill points are MUCH MORE effective into being placed into enchancing his disability spells)

I don't know how to respond to this immensely bad skill build :/

Maxing hex last?

Not leveling ultimate?

:confused:

[creefer]

I don't know how to respond to this immensely bad skill build :/

Maxing hex last?

Not leveling ultimate?

:confused:

He's right about the ultimate getting mana heavy very quickly. Level 2 too early and PW basically becomes a "one and run" hero. Hit ult, go back to pool.

[Furbag]

In casual mode, the earlier you push the better, apparently. I've seen people completely abandon their lanes by 9 minutes and 5 man rush a single lane. Pollywog is just one of those heroes where people expect you to use your ultimate to knock down towers for the early bounty gold. It works just as well in normal mode as it does in causal.

As far as the people who said you were bad for pushing early... buy some wards for them to shut them up. If they skill get killed in the pushed-in lane with 100% vision, tell them to uninstall the game.

[shadodark]

My opinion is that it is not always good to take towers.

I think its bad to push a tower if its early game and you are below level 6...you don't yet do that much damage and you will tend to be forced to creep farther away from safety (assuming your enemy is about as good as you at last hit/deny) making you more prone to dieing to gank.

On the otherhand, if you are dominating your lane, pushing the lane may be good.

But, if you are just running from mid to a sidelane and warding to help your sidelane push the tower...then go back to mid...you may find your sidelane die to ganks more easily as they are pushed farther than they want to be early game.

[Demonwing]

My opinion is that it is not always good to take towers.

I think its bad to push a tower if its early game and you are below level 6...you don't yet do that much damage and you will tend to be forced to creep farther away from safety (assuming your enemy is about as good as you at last hit/deny) making you more prone to dieing to gank.

On the otherhand, if you are dominating your lane, pushing the lane may be good.

But, if you are just running from mid to a sidelane and warding to help your sidelane push the tower...then go back to mid...you may find your sidelane die to ganks more easily as they are pushed farther than they want to be early game.

You are mistaken. It is not your own lane that is more unsafe. It is the enemy lane. They no longer have a tower to tp to, so they cannot go out as far without being unsafe. The lane is also much easier to gank for your team for the same reason. You, on the other hand, still have your tower to tp to.

[shadodark]

You are mistaken. It is not your own lane that is more unsafe. It is the enemy lane. They no longer have a tower to tp to, so they cannot go out as far without being unsafe. The lane is also much easier to gank for your team for the same reason. You, on the other hand, still have your tower to tp to.

I certainly agree once you get to mid game (after lvl 7-8), but in early game, I think an early pushed tower is more difficult for the pushing team to maintain. It will allow the defending team to static farm in a safer position closer to base. If the pushing team stays near defending 2nd tower, they are open to ganks, from mid especially.

All bets are off once you get to mid game and laning is no longer required. Then it is definitely an advantage to push.

[Mental_Block]

Oh, if you're completely interested why don't you search on the forums;
Tempest farms PK in 5:40, that's one of my greatest accomplishments.

I'd like to see that, fastest I've farmed that was 6 minutes and 30ish seconds, but that was with first blood for extra ++, SD mode.

[Silphid]

In my own opinion you played your cards incorrectly. They in fact are right to SOME degree.

In my own opinion, again, an ex-dota veteran,
yeah right... dota veteran huehuehuehue

[Xanuben]

Nothing wrong in killing an early tower. That's 200 gold for everyone. That's wards for your support. 2 wards will control whole hellbourne jungle. That's more then enough to keep your farming secure on that lane.
Map control is important. They can't port to gank top lane that easily anymore.
Also, it decreases the morale of your opponents more then you'd think.

[SheepTamer]

If you're that interested I still remember the game.

It was where I tore blood hunter a brand new hole, denying and last hitting everythign that he could hit, tongue tieing him with my creeps to auto attack, and bolting him for a kill @ abotu level 2.

Oh, if you're completely interested why don't you search on the forums;
Tempest farms PK in 5:40, that's one of my greatest accomplishments.

I think i remember you from a thread where you claimed to be the number one tempest player in the world or something. Right?

[Matsuchi]

In my own opinion you played your cards incorrectly. They in fact are right to SOME degree.

In my own opinion, again, an ex-dota veteran, I would have taken the mid tower first and foremost, and I wouldn't have even gone to ANY other lane until that tower was demolished.

Then I would have examined the situation and seen whether or not the other lanes NEEDED assistance, because if they don't NEED a gank or a tower push, it's far more effective to continue pushing the mid lane. Pollywog is after all the single most effective 1v1 hero in the game, and can really only be matched by somebody who knows precisely what they are doing at all times, are = or > more skilled than you, and a small luck factor (IE: :moon::plag::devo:)

Removing the 2nd mid tower early on (you technically don't even have to destroy it, as long as you place offensive wards after destroying the first) gives you a much stronger position on the map as you're allowed to place offensive wards and gain a stronger position. I know what I just did.

As Pollywog mid, it's really up to YOU to carry your team to mid game and depending on your skill level, even late game. It all comes down to WARDS - WARDS - WARDS.

Skill Build: Max Lightning, 2 skills into tongue tie, Ultimate, 1 skill into Hex, max tongue tie, then max Hex (DO NOT LEVEL UP YOUR ULTIMATE A 2nd or 3rd time, Pollywog is one of the only heroes in the game who receive a MASSIVE drawback mana requirement from levelling his ultimate, and his skill points are MUCH MORE effective into being placed into enchancing his disability spells)

1st ward (purchase with start gold, only buy 1 then) place on the Hellbourne's mid ledge overseeing the top rune @ 1:30 - 2:00. This will barely give you sight of the rune, and will give you sight of the jungle ramp and the area across the river (so there is no guessing game as to where your opponent is). Focus on denying and last hitting/harassing with lighting bolt.

2nd ward (I assume you are able to destroy the tower within the first 6-8 minutes) Put outside of the tower range of the middle tower down the center lane, (Southwest of the jungle ramp, in front of the trees) and then place a 3rd ward in the jungle plateau overseeing the camps / short lane. Then place a 4th ward on the plateau overseeing the top rune / camp (the peak, not the same place as the first ward..never place your wards in the same place throughout the game, always move them around)

Proceed to gank and then take towers, you should be able to farm a bottle to runewhore, and Post Haste for offense/defense purposes.

Notice on Boots:
Post Haste = Best Mobility
Steamboots = Best 1v1
Ghost Marchers = Unitwalking / Good Ganking
Striders = Good Mobility / Good Ganking

Conclusion: See in my opinion your method of taking the outside towers before you took the inside towers was a strategic flaw. Especially considering the defenses in the center lane are (usually) less than that of the outside lanes, considering there is (generally) one hero defending it, if that hero isn't off ganking giving you complete freedom. You want to strike them from the core of their base rather than backdoor them from the outside. Pollywog doesn't scale into late game WITHOUT items, and WITH items he scales extremely well.

The fastest i've ever won a game with Pollywog (legitimatelly won) was in 24 minutes. I took every single outside tower plus the center lane tier 3 tower within 13 minutes, took a break to recouperate my strengths and my teammates, and proceeded to push out the center raxes by 22 minutes, and taking the throne at the 24th minute.

I finished with Post Haste / SotM / Refresher / Bottle.
AGAIN NOTE: If you decide to get a Refresher to double cast ult, whatever you do, DO NOT continue levelling up your ultimate until you have a very large mana pool. If you want to practice when you can you need to mathcraft it or have a brain like mine. :P

Best of luck, sorry for taking over.
You mind Posting a photo of were you meant these wards to be placed? Also that thing about not maxing your ultimate i never thought of it thanks for that:)

[Omgopolis]

In casual mode, the earlier you push the better, apparently. I've seen people completely abandon their lanes by 9 minutes and 5 man rush a single lane. Pollywog is just one of those heroes where people expect you to use your ultimate to knock down towers for the early bounty gold. It works just as well in normal mode as it does in causal.

As far as the people who said you were bad for pushing early... buy some wards for them to shut them up. If they skill get killed in the pushed-in lane with 100% vision, tell them to uninstall the game.
Yeah, early pushing is pretty solid. It's only a problem if your teammates are stupid enough to try to farm the pushed lane without ward coverage when the creep wave is too far out. That's not a problem with pushing though; that's just bads being bad.

I'd much rather play aggressively rather than trying to lane after the tower is down. Take advantage of the extra gold and push more towers; it should be pretty easy if they let the first one drop early. You can just keep pushing and bring the game to a close early. There's no reason every game has to be 60+ minutes of farming.

[Auboss]

He's right about the ultimate getting mana heavy very quickly. Level 2 too early and PW basically becomes a "one and run" hero. Hit ult, go back to pool.

Yea for sure, get level 2 ult at 15 then level 3 at 16 usually works well.
An extra hex is worth much more than level 2 ult instead of 1 most of the times.

[Auboss]

As far as the whole pushing early.
It is always a good thing.
But once you have done that early push you can't really go back to trying to farm a lot of the time.

Top lane should have starting roaming with you for ganks and pushes and then quick farms between ults.

[RocketMan05]

depends on the team, if they need to dig in and farm, yes pushing early is bad. its better to have 3 farming and you roaming as polly ganking. creep kills + hero kills = gold

if your team are active gankers, simultaneously warding and pushing early gives you map control, so its a good thing.

[Mankrik]

Pretty funny that everyone keeps saying it's always a good thing. It's not. It is usually a good thing, but different heroes and comps all peak at different times. If your top lane is something that requires experience to dominate, you're going to severely cripple them by killing top. Now what can they do? 5push for crappy experience? Jungle? Sometimes it's not correct. If your team has very little earlygame power and will lose teamfights if they force them, that bounty is not worth the complete loss of a lane's experience and gold income.

Map control is very important. Not at 8 minutes. Map awareness and lane control are important at 8 minutes. If your team can't follow through, you will lose them more than you gain by getting 200 gold to everyone. Sometimes it's better to let the lanephase resolve when it naturally would (use your wards to gank top instead) and THEN establish early map control by taking top tier 1 and possibly 2.

I know exactly what you all mean when you say that taking that tower makes their jungle unsafe for any junglers/farmers. But just as often as that's the case, I've had games where I was hellbourne and they pushed tier1 top quickly, so I static farmed next to my tower for 10 mins (this happened a ton when I was playing hard carries) while my team defended the other two lanes. Then we won, because I had 450 gpm at 20 minutes. When you take top tower you make it so that YOU have to cross over into dangerous territory in order to execute a gank. So if the legion team sees me static farming as scout top, what are they going to do about it? There's about a 3% chance that they'll successfully make it to me without crossing one of my wards and kill me before I'm able to escape - and if they do, they're right next to my tower where my teammates would be happy to port in and clean up.

It is not always the correct thing to do. Consider whether your team can handle it. However, pushing the short lane is fine. It's always exposed enough that you can continue to gank off of it, and players will rarely sit at it anyways.

What I'm getting at is pressure. If you can take top tower and then your team can continue to pressure their jungle, go for it. But if they're just going to back off when you eliminate that lane, you're actually giving the other team *protection* by pushing the creep line deep into their territory. Two wards at jungle entrances can give them plenty of protection, so they can feel confident remaining in the lane until you start pressuring again.

[MiniDon]

Pushoing and then not doing anything is bad.

Pushing and warding aggresively and then ganking them is good, because u can push the next tower.. Towers give map control, how? simple TPS. If u gank someone his team can help by tping 2 the nearest tow, theres a huge difference between tping next to him to having to run for 5 seconds to reach them.

If your team is smart pushing early is amazing, gives u money for wards, gives whole team money so they can keep pushing.. it is only bad when u push 1 tower and forget about that lane completetly cu then the other team free farms there.

[pechkin]

if carry doesnt know how to deny creeps so they dont push line and stay near his tower even if there is no enemy tower anymore, then its his fault.

[Epidemilk]

I would really love a replay of you taking a tower in 6 min. Otherwise its just hard for me to buy it...

That's just one person and sounds quite doable with a good pushing ulti and maybe a head start damaging it early on...get the whole team behind your push and you can take rax in 6 minutes (and lose anyway because you come out all being level 2-3) :P


...that might have been before keeper and rhapsody nerfs, but I'm pretty sure everyone saw that game...was it team EZ? I forget