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Raithx
10-25-2009, 10:52 PM
Hello. I had a few quick questions about what are the 'good' heroes and such. Before you flame me, let me explain.

I have only played EM games, because that what most of my buddies were doing. Now we are starting to play NON-EM games, and we are getting somewhat ROFL'd.

I was wondering if there was a Hero Tier Guide/List strictly for NON-EM games, because we are quickly finding out that being able to pick a few AGI carries and faceroll our way to 25 with the best items in the game doesn't happen in non-EM games.

Is it as simple as "pick Tempest+Magmus" or something else?

Thank you in advance.

ZombieFewd
10-25-2009, 10:54 PM
Tiers are for queers. Any hero, given the right circumstances, can be played just as well as any other. It all depends on the players themselves.

Raithx
10-25-2009, 10:55 PM
Thank you for that useful and enlightening post.

Wihl
10-25-2009, 11:06 PM
Tiers are for queers. Any hero, given the right circumstances, can be played just as well as any other. It all depends on the players themselves.
Erm, not really no. See: Chronos / KotF / old Kraken / old scout etc.

On-topic:
There are some "bad" heroes that might be situational at best. My advice would be to check out some of the competitive videos (like those made by Glorify) and see what lineups that are used in those videos. It's not so much about the individual heroes but more how those heroes work together, and of course how they counter the enemy lineup.

In RD games you often see very aoe-centric teams, this doesnt seem to hold true for banning draft though as those heroes (tempest, behemoth, kraken (to a lesser degree), magmus etc) tend to be banned almost automatically. Plus, we now have silencer that might change the game around a bit as well.

EDIT:
Also I'm pretty sure there are some general guides in the guide forum that you might want to check out.

Raithx
10-25-2009, 11:08 PM
Where would one go to see these videos?

Wihl
10-25-2009, 11:11 PM
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=33500
That's one, there's a whole bunch in the fan media forum - of varying quality.

nublard
10-25-2009, 11:12 PM
Tiers are for queers. Any hero, given the right circumstances, can be played just as well as any other. It all depends on the players themselves.

Aside from this doing nothing to answer the question, I don't believe it is true. There is a reason why some heroes are consistently picked / banned in organized or pro games.

I believe there is someone on the forums who compiled some stats that shows win/loss percentages among other stats for all heroes. Search the forums to find it.

To answer your question briefly, I would suggest strong heroes that are of medium difficulty to play. A few come to mind:
Pestilence - AOE stun, haste for ganking and fleeing, and spammable ult that lets you focus fire and keep vision on opponents.
Defiler - Spammable nuke for lane control, silence for team fights, and an ult that rapes everything in sight (don't forget to right click to target pwnage). Learn to rune control.
Tempest - Elementals provide pushing power and jungling ability. Make sure enemies don't feed them. Blink dagger and ult for win.
Magmus - Blink/AOE stun, sandstorm to buy time for allies to help you out, and blink ult for win.

Finally, I'd strongly suggest you watch a few progames (e-rev.tv) to get a good grasp for how to use top-tier picks.

Good luck!

ZombieFewd
10-25-2009, 11:22 PM
This is almost going into the Super Smash Brothers era of sillyness (where the characters are organized into tiers, and often players pick only those that are "top" tier). Characters that are picked often are usually deemed "better" for some reason, while characters that aren't end up not having a developed metagame. This usually means that some sort of balance is required, but that is something hard to do with players of different skill levels and characters with different skills.

Take, for example, Ophelia, who is an amazing pick, but few people do pick her because they tend toward carries instead of direct support heroes. A non-em Ophelia can be a game breaker, but she gets left behind. With a smart one, you get 6 -8 seconds of AoE stun, all of which requires a little micro.

Each hero has advantages and disadvantages; a good player will play on their advantages while trying to itemize to either make those advantages even better or covering up a weakness.

EDOCSlicer
10-25-2009, 11:39 PM
This is almost going into the Super Smash Brothers era of sillyness (where the characters are organized into tiers, and often players pick only those that are "top" tier). Characters that are picked often are usually deemed "better" for some reason, while characters that aren't end up not having a developed metagame. This usually means that some sort of balance is required, but that is something hard to do with players of different skill levels and characters with different skills.

Take, for example, Ophelia, who is an amazing pick, but few people do pick her because they tend toward carries instead of direct support heroes. A non-em Ophelia can be a game breaker, but she gets left behind. With a smart one, you get 6 -8 seconds of AoE stun, all of which requires a little micro.

Each hero has advantages and disadvantages; a good player will play on their advantages while trying to itemize to either make those advantages even better or covering up a weakness.

Ophelias army still gets countered by usual Aoe teams. Heros are far too varied to be equal on all sides. Some strategies are stronger than others and some heros are better at facilitating those strategies. Your smash brothers analogy is an apt one, as far as a tier system goes it is like that, just in a different context.

Elfmo
10-26-2009, 03:09 AM
This is almost going into the Super Smash Brothers era of sillyness (where the characters are organized into tiers, and often players pick only those that are "top" tier). Characters that are picked often are usually deemed "better" for some reason, while characters that aren't end up not having a developed metagame. This usually means that some sort of balance is required, but that is something hard to do with players of different skill levels and characters with different skills.

Take, for example, Ophelia, who is an amazing pick, but few people do pick her because they tend toward carries instead of direct support heroes. A non-em Ophelia can be a game breaker, but she gets left behind. With a smart one, you get 6 -8 seconds of AoE stun, all of which requires a little micro.

Each hero has advantages and disadvantages; a good player will play on their advantages while trying to itemize to either make those advantages even better or covering up a weakness.

Not that I like Smash Bros at all, but coming from the competitive fighting game scene, individual character tiers are waaaay more important and it shines way more than in a team-based game like DotA. Like, you can say that characters get deemed "better" for no reason, but it's usually pretty obvious. In DotA and HoN, this can still be seen, but the individual matters less than the team synergy as a whole (i.e Tempest may be top tier, but having Tempest doesn't guarantee a win).

It may be that in the Smash scene, no one knows anything about crappy characters, but in a lot of fighting games, characters are understood as the best and the worst for the exact opposite - it's because they HAVE been studied at length. I'm certain this is true for DotA and HoN too, but since frequent updates are made, tiers can shift a lot from one update to the next. So, it's more important to understand what team strategies are the most effective.

Avi1231
10-26-2009, 03:14 AM
I put a link at the end of my guide to support heroes to QuC|Angel's tier guide. Hit the link in my signature and scroll way down.

Sagat
10-26-2009, 06:05 AM
Public game tier list:

God tier
Scout
Arachna
Puppet Master
Pestilence

Good tier
Rampage

Average tier
everyone else

HolyBlade`
10-26-2009, 06:17 AM
It's hard to create a tier list for a game that emphasizes teamwork. Even the "best" heroes in one team can get shut down easily by a smart 5 man team of "lesser" coordinating together. Any hero is good if they have the right items and are fed enough.

akitoes
10-26-2009, 07:41 AM
Tiers are for queers. Any hero, given the right circumstances, can be played just as well as any other. It all depends on the players themselves.
lemme guess, you wanna become a politician ?

or are you just ignorant ?

Ragnarok17
11-03-2009, 12:06 AM
@ZombieFewd

Lol SSBB silly tier arguments XD.

Ok again to prevent myself from writing a page i'll list some things quickly.


Many people claim they know what a Tier List is.

Many people who claim that Tier Lists exists have totally different ideas of what a Tier List is or should represent.

Tier Lists are not facts. They are opinions.

Tier Lists are supposed to show whatever character/hero has the most influencial presence in a high level tournament scene. The way you want to judge this is completely up to you, from deciding how much a tournament ways, how much more winning as a first place team is than a second place team is, etc.

Other claim that Tier Lists organize the characters in groups that show how good they are at their full potential.

Some of these organize them into groups considering future potential.

Others just organize them into groups considering only current metagame.

Even others organize them into groups considering only the current metagame, but the character/hero played at its absolute best.

Still, others organize people in Tier Lists with Difficulty as a factor.


Anyways, Tier Lists are opinions and people can generally agree that some hero is better than another generally, but it is not and will never be fact.

Thus, Tier Lists are opinions and should not be treated as facts and flamed on by others.


But especially since this game is a team game, Tier Lists would probably make more sense if they categorize the heroes into groups of teams of 5, instead of individually, although organizing them by teams would produce like thousands of combinations XD.

_Archangel_
11-03-2009, 12:21 AM
This is almost going into the Super Smash Brothers era of sillyness (where the characters are organized into tiers, and often players pick only those that are "top" tier). Characters that are picked often are usually deemed "better" for some reason, while characters that aren't end up not having a developed metagame. This usually means that some sort of balance is required, but that is something hard to do with players of different skill levels and characters with different skills.

Take, for example, Ophelia, who is an amazing pick, but few people do pick her because they tend toward carries instead of direct support heroes. A non-em Ophelia can be a game breaker, but she gets left behind. With a smart one, you get 6 -8 seconds of AoE stun, all of which requires a little micro.

Each hero has advantages and disadvantages; a good player will play on their advantages while trying to itemize to either make those advantages even better or covering up a weakness.

Here (http://www.playdota.com/guides/competitive-heroes-in-post-6.6x[/url) is a very good (Though now outdated) tier list for DotA heroes. Heroes in DotA are sorted in tiers this way because, whether you like it or not, some heroes ARE superior to others in the hands of players of similar skill. Some heroes are more versatile, fit the metagame better and are generally better picks than others.

Naturally, this applies to HoN because the two are very similar games. Some heroes are simply more effective at their roles than others. Some heroes are "God Tier" because they are hard to play against, while some heroes are downright "Unplayable", with high likelihood that they will be more of a liability than an asset for their team. (Devourer, Chronos...)

This is all from a competitive point of view though. In pubs, skill levels differ between players greatly and so tier lists aren't an accurate indicator of who's strong and who's not.

Thus my advice for the OP is try picking heroes other than carries (Pyromancer, Thunder Bringer)

The``Master
11-03-2009, 12:25 AM
IMO, there are 3 tiers.

God Tier, which includes heroes that are banned every game, such as Tempest/Behmonth

Great Tier, which is the majority of the heroes. Just knowing how to play a particular hero can put him on the same level as any other hero.

Good Tier, Heroes that require either luck, aka BlackSmith, or can only do one roll. These would be heroes like armadon, whose only role is really to tank.

Basically, If not banned, all heroes in God Tier will be picked. After all the heroes in God Tier are picked, everyone chooses from the large and vast Great Tier. Then theres the occasional guy who comes along thinking he is all good by picking a hero in the good tier.

Spectral
11-03-2009, 12:29 AM
Doomguy, how can your lowest tier be "good" when its clearly the worst tier :P

Ernie888
11-03-2009, 08:22 PM
God tier: magmus, tempest, behemoth, jereziah, sand wraith, pest, demented shaman, hell bringer, pharoh, hammer storm, valk

V Good: Pyro, androm, plague, pollywog, TB, madman, maliken, soul stealer(hands guy - think i got the right name) succ

This is a list from my exp and a few competitive games i've seen. Ofc most of god tier is banned but the rest are picked. Excuse the spelling mistakes.

blumpster
11-03-2009, 08:32 PM
God tier: magmus, tempest, behemoth, jereziah, sand wraith, pest, demented shaman, hell bringer, pharoh, hammer storm, valk

V Good: Pyro, androm, plague, pollywog, TB, madman, maliken, soul stealer(hands guy - think i got the right name) succ

This is a list from my exp and a few competitive games i've seen. Ofc most of god tier is banned but the rest are picked. Excuse the spelling mistakes.

Madman not god tier? What now? I like the idea of a tier list, it gives you an idea of what a hero is capable of...but it doesn't mean a whole lot when considering an entire team composition. You need heroes that work well together and compliment each other while providing a well rounded team. You can't focus entirely on one aspect of the game or you will get crushed, as do many Tempest/Magmus/moreAEheroeshere pub teams.

A hero may not be considered "god tier" but that does not mean he is useless. He may very well be the key component to winning a match given certain circumstances.

dune
11-03-2009, 09:06 PM
The problem with creating a list in such a manner is that each hero is given a set block; a discrete position. Meanwhile, in actuality, the system is much more a continuous set of data. It is rare to find any two heroes which are equally valued on the team in all respects and you will find that it is more a case of a quantitative scale which not only is based on opinion but also the 'popular build' of the time (a good example for any DotA-ers would be the sudden rise of Morphling in competitive DotA several months ago without really receiving any particular buff to trigger it).

Generally one can get a feel for what heroes are the better ones by studying the higher-level play, where the skill of the players is much less diverse than your average pub. Examining the effectiveness of the heroes as well as the frequency of choice are all factors which should be considered in determining how powerful a hero is in comparison to its colleagues.

sam_jackson
11-03-2009, 11:43 PM
For tiers to be effective, they have to be constantly updating.

Take for instance Street Fighter and other fighting games. In competitive levels of these games, the tiers are constantly being updated. There are high level players sending their tiers in and they are being merged with other high level players tiers to be weighed out.

Hell, in SFIV I've seen Geif and Sagat change places more then most people change their underwear.

So in general, I'd be wary of tiers as the meta game is constantly changing. People think up new combos and strats quite often. Until we see a living tier, it's going to be hard to point people towards one.

g1mpie
11-04-2009, 12:48 AM
Here is a semi out-dated guide but is still great.http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=29225

Distort3d
11-04-2009, 01:00 AM
Tier lists are generally useless, because they give a representation of what a hero is capable of, but there's a way to play every hero to win.

Hero Capability != Player Skill

People who rely on tier lists are scrubs.

The``Master
11-04-2009, 01:03 AM
Doomguy, how can your lowest tier be "good" when its clearly the worst tier :P

Because they are still good heroes, just not as good as all the others :p

Crapload
11-04-2009, 01:26 AM
Tier lists are generally useless, because they give a representation of what a hero is capable of, but there's a way to play every hero to win.

Hero Capability != Player Skill

People who rely on tier lists are scrubs.

No, they're good players.

BIGWANG
11-04-2009, 01:38 AM
Public game tier list:

God tier
Scout
Arachna
Puppet Master
Pestilence

Good tier
Rampage

Average tier
everyone else

I would put Behemoth, Tempest, Plague rider or Nymphora, Thunderbringer or a carry, and Magebane/TDL/Madman against you. Who would win? Your god tier or my average tier?

Just because a hero is good in high skilled play doesn't mean it is bad in pubs.