Pandamonium - Atomic Collider

[Travakh]

Guide is current as of 1.50.1. I apologize for the bad screenshots but I took them from a laptop, on which I set HoN to minimum settings. I'll update the pictures to be pretty in time.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/FireballX301/panda/panda1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/FireballX301/panda/panda2.jpg


Panda is a quintessential team battle and control hero. All of his damage and spells are physical, his damage is inflicted in an aoe on demand, and he has a stun plus two single target disables. This hero is neither for the faint of heart or for the less experienced player, because his playstyle requires timing and high amounts of map and battle awareness.

His strengths are his scaling damage (Flurry and FaceSmash both scale with base/attack damage extremely well) and his ability to lockdown priority targets and control fights because nothing he does is affected by magic immunity.

His weaknesses are his difficulty to play, large battle presence (he will likely be the first target in many team battles), and critical lack of mana to fuel his 4 activated abilities in the early game, as well as not-very-good tankability.

--

Stats



STR: 23/+2.7
AGI: 17/+1.7
INT: 15/+1.8


Low starting int and mediocre growths overall mean you'll need a decent investment in early stat items to be at all useful in lane and early fights.

--

Skills



Flurry


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/FireballX301/panda/panda5.jpg

30 mana/charge, 1/2/3/4 charges stored on 4 second cooldown per charge. Flurry is an independently triggered damage instance (meaning crit/lifesteal/etc dont work) that inflicts your attack damage +15/25/35/45% base damage in a 150 aoe in front of you, then moves you and all affected units a distance of 100 in the direction you're facing, disabling all affected units for a short period of time (about a third of a second per flurry). Flurry is your scaling damage-on-demand skill that allows you to manipulate fights to your advantage - you can push heroes out and away from fights, you can quickly clear waves of creeps, and you can deal heavy frontloaded damage within a short timeframe. The difficulty of this skill is making sure you're facing the right direction, as otherwise you can flurry into air and do nothing but burn mana and disable yourself for the short duration.


Flick


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/FireballX301/panda/panda3.jpg

65 mana on 24/22/20/18sec cooldown. Flick repositions an enemy within 350 range to flip them behind you. Panda will jump forward and flick someone; they will land after roughly a second, at which time they are debuffed with -2/4/6/8 armor and a -20/30/40/50% slow which fades over 6 seconds. This skill is first and foremost a *disable*, and is built to stop runners and chain with the other two skills. The -armor and ms is a bonus but don't use it randomly - this attack stops channeling spells and goes through immunity without a sweat. In addition this ignores disjoints - the moment panda's jump goes off, the reposition is *forced*, allowing you to ignore the effects of a kraken's charge or a magebane's blink.


Cannonball


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/FireballX301/panda/panda4.jpg

100 mana on 14 second cooldown. Cannonball launches you into the air for about a second and lands you at any point within the 600 cast range, dealing 75/125/175/225 physical damage to all enemies in a 400 radius and stunning the ones within 200 for .75/1.25/1.75/2.25 seconds, and dealing an additional 25/50/75/100 physical damage to them (325 total damage at level 4 on a direct hit). If you miss and fail to hit anyone you're stunned yourself for 1.5 seconds. This spell is very hard to initiate with and is best used after an allied initiation or immediately after your flick, because it's not very difficult to see it coming and dodge. On the other hand it's an aoe stun and personal reposition, which gives it superb utility for team battles and blazing escapes. The combo here is to use it immediately after your flick; flick an enemy then cannonball right behind you; the flick slow will ensure that the cannonball will hit, and upon landing the stun you can wail away or ult the target at your pleasure.


Face Smash


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/FireballX301/panda/panda6.jpg

100/175/250 mana on 120sec cd. You channel for 4.5 seconds on an enemy within 100 range - for the duration of the channel the target is completely disabled and you inflict one pulse of damage each second for your attack damage plus 40/80/120% additional base damage. Contrary to my picture, this is NOT a hard hitting ult - it's actually inferior to devourer's ult for damage until much later on in the game. This is instead a hard disable that is broken in ganks (flicking someone and immediately facesmashing them on landing is roughly 6 seconds of disable) and can handily lock down priority targets in team fights. The scaling damage is simply a bonus, but this skill is first and foremost a channeled disable and should be treated as such. Unlike flurry attack modifiers do in fact work during face smash, meaning debuffs such as shieldbreaker will apply on the hits and lifesteal will take effect.

--

Skillbuild




Flick
Flurry
Cannonball
Cannonball
Flurry
Face Smash
Cannonball
Cannonball
Flurry
Flurry
Face Smash
Flick
Flick
Flick
Stats
Face Smash
Stats to 25

Why: Flick has a similar mechanic at all levels - taking it at the first level allows pathetically easy first bloods, as the armor debuff has great effect. Cannonball's mana cost no longer goes up as you level it making it superior to flurry for the early game, as having a 2.25 second stun dealing 325 in an aoe at level 8 is simply too good to pass up. One level in flurry is taking for last hit assisting and minor positioning shenanigans (specifically, unlocking the flick->flurry in lane at level 2, but it's usually unlikely you'd ever get more than two of them off in the early game.

Flurry is maxed after cannonball for expedited farming, flick is then maxed. Facesmash is always levelled when you get it but keep in mind the only thing that improves is the damage - the duration remains the same.

--

Items


Starting build:
http://www.hondb.com/img/items/basic/pretenders_crown/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/basic/pretenders_crown/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/basic/minor_totem/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/basic/minor_totem/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/basic/runes_of_the_blight/icon_96.png

Why: +6 stats is a very generic loadout that improves your lane presence greatly. Buy a power supply as soon as you can from the sideshop. For early game roams and ganks, feel free to switch out pretender's crowns for more totems and regenerative consumables (healing pots and mana pots).

Build into:
http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/pneumatic_bracelet/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/pneumatic_bracelet/icon_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/steamboots/icon_int_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/power_supply/icon_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/basic/bottle/icon_3_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/shrunken_head/icon_96.png

Panda relies entirely on base damage, something enhanced marchers do not improve. Str steamboots yield 12 base damage, which has far superior yields on flurry and facesmash than the non-base damage on enhanced marchers. Panda does not scale at all with attack speed. Power supply and bottle are taken to maintain your mana pool.

Shrunken Head/BKB is *crucial* on panda. There is never, ever a reason not to take this item - it yields moderate damage, and for you to be able to chain disable enemies, it's critical that you not be disabled yourself. The hard counter to a rushing panda is simply to stun or otherwise disable him, then maintain distance and kite - this is no longer possible if the panda has magic immunity, and during those few seconds he can flick, cannonball, and face smash with complete and utter impunity. Completing BKB finishes your core build.

Panda allows a great number of build paths from here. I've listed a few choices with justifications:

http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/insanitarius/icon_96.png
Insanitarius has superb damage yield on panda, 25 str and 31 damage = +56 damage to all attacks, 56+11 bonus damage to flurry hits, 56+30 bonus damage to each swing of your ult. If you want cheap and easy damage, pick up the armlet.

http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/shieldbreaker/icon_96.png
Shieldbreaker is inadvisable if new to the hero because it yields no hp and requires careful use of Insanitarius; armor reduction makes all hits hit that much harder though, again, superb damage.

http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/wolf_of_the_wilds/icon_96.png
Frostwolf means no more hp or mana issues. Slows on hit allowing easier time in terms of landing flurry hits. +stats contribute to base damage boost, so item yields 25+11 bonus on flurry and 25+30 bonus on each swing of ult, making it more damaging than first glance.

Games should never get to this point, but here are other good (though usually not as good as the aforementioned) items on panda:

http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/doomshards/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/behemoths_heart/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/frostfield_plate/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/puzzlebox/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/totem_of_kuldra/icon_96.pnghttp://www.hondb.com/img/items/basic/portal_key/icon_96.png

Critstick has 59% chance of at least 1 proc during the ult and will eat enemies alive if it does - 1k crits are never anything to scoff at. Heart's benefits are obvious. Cannonball+frostfield activation can rout a position and allow for great initiates. Puzzlebox has good yields on panda (activate immediately before facesmashing someone, have puzzlebox minions beat on the target). Sheepstick is another disable, allowing piss easy flurry strikes and making you more of a threat on the field. Portal Key allows additional positioning shenanigans.

Avoid these items:
http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/runed_axe/icon_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/geometers_bane/icon_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/savage_axe/icon_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/torgashs_mock/icon_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/harkons_blade/icon_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/elder_parasite/icon_96.png http://www.hondb.com/img/items/recipes/symbol_of_rage/icon_96.png

Runed axe's utility is cleave but your flurries already cleave, meaning there's almost no improvement to farming from the battle fury. Images do nothing because most of your team battle damage is from activations of flurry. MKB and radiance do not improve base damage, radiance does not improve your farm significantly. Panda does not have the mana to sustain Harkon's Blade. Panda has minimal damage improvement from increased attack speed (he scales better with raw +str), making eldar parasite a not very good item. Panda is not a particularly good autoattacker and lifesteal does not have very good yields on panda, making the 3 seconds of 150% lifesteal wasted on him.

--
In-game Strategy

Unlike other gankers and carries panda's battling ability is quite complex and detailed - Panda is very strong all-game with several skill combinations that can be used to rout enemies.

In the early game it's best that you lane with a partner, because a flick and cannonball can easily set up kills for you. Lane as you would with any melee hero, use Flurry to pick up last hits that you miss. You can't afford to try to randomly cannonball, so instead wait for them to close range, then execute a quick flick followed by however many flurries you have available to push them behind your creep line. Being able to push someone that far guarantees a good number of hits while they run and will pick up an easy kill if you're laning with any direct damage.

From the moment you get your bottle you need to begin roaming ASAP to take advantage of your hero. In this case the combination is simple - cannonball on someone and immediately flick-facesmash them, and you have 4 seconds of leisure while your teammates kill whoever you've facesmashed. You can use flurry in a pinch to clear creep waves and neutral camps in the downtime while your ult isn't up, but your ult is too good - always gank whenever it's up.

Press the advantage in team battles. You should not be initiating fights, the stun radius on your cannonball is too short. What you should be doing is locking down priority targets - enemy carries or CC. Once your team initiates cannonball your target and flick-facesmash them to disable them. Mop up by using flick-flurry to stop runners and kill people.

These combinations become intuitive in game. The critical point here is that panda is a *disabler*, not a carry, not a tank, and should be played as such.

-

Thoughts/comments?

[sYthex]

Finnaly someone has written a guide on Panda that isn't terrible. Great Guide, and the screen-shots spice everything up.
/Premium

[ElementUser]

Wow those hero models look so distorted lol.


Insanitarius has superb damage yield on panda, 25 str and 31 damage = +56 damage to all attacks, 56+15 bonus damage to flurry hits, 56+25 bonus damage to each swing of your ult. If you want cheap and easy damage, pick up the armlet.Not 100% true, Flurry deals an extra 15% of your base damage. Since Insanitarius grants +25 strength during the time it's activated, the +25 damage from the strength is factored into the base damage. The direct + damage from items won't let Flurry deal extra damage.

Flurry & Face Smash both deal damage based on base damage.

Other than that, not much to say.

[Travakh]

Wow those hero models look so distorted lol.

Not 100% true, Flurry deals an extra 15% of your base damage. Since Insanitarius grants +25 strength during the time it's activated, the +25 damage from the strength is factored into the base damage. The direct + damage from items won't let Flurry deal extra damage.

Flurry & Face Smash both deal damage based on base damage.

Other than that, not much to say.

If I'm reading the skills properly, they deal your attack damage, with *bonus* damage being determined based on your base damage. Improving your non-base attack damage still improves the total damage from a flurry cast, it just doesn't improve the specific bonus damage that flurry and facesmash yield.

If this weren't true, those 1500 crits I took screenshots of would not be possible, as his base damage was something like 250 with that loadout.

Also yes, the models look like that at minimum settings. About half the heroes are straight up missing their models, with only the model doodads (colored shoulderpads and such) showing up properly.

Just tested. So insanitarius yields +25 str and 31 damage on activation. Assume panda's base damage is 100 with armlet turned off. A flurry deals 145 damage with armlet off.

Turn it on. Panda's base damage improves to 125, his attack damage is 156. Flurry would deal 156 + (.45*125=56.25) = 212 damage.

[ElementUser]

If I'm reading the skills properly, they deal your attack damage, with *bonus* damage being determined based on your base damage. Improving your non-base attack damage still improves the total damage from a flurry cast, it just doesn't improve the specific bonus damage that flurry and facesmash yield.

Yes, that was what I implied. The way you worded it made it sound like Insanitarius was stronger than it actually is on Panda though.

[Travakh]

Yes, that was what I implied. The way you worded it made it sound like Insanitarius was stronger than it actually is on Panda though.

It is flat out the most cost effective damage item on him though, even moreso than shieldbreaker.

[Azmodai]

I just tried this build now. Very very nice and well written. Runed Axe provides so little for this hero indeed, going for frostwolf seems to work best for me :)

[Flair]

Wow those hero models look so distorted lol.

Not 100% true, Flurry deals an extra 15% of your base damage. Since Insanitarius grants +25 strength during the time it's activated, the +25 damage from the strength is factored into the base damage. The direct + damage from items won't let Flurry deal extra damage.

Flurry & Face Smash both deal damage based on base damage.

Other than that, not much to say.
It's 45% at max level.

[ElementUser]

It's 45% at max level.

Oh, that was referring to his example in Insanitarius. He put +15 damage, so I assumed he meant one of the lower levels. In the end I thought the +15 damage was +15%

[Travakh]

Oh, that was referring to his example in Insanitarius. He put +15 damage, so I assumed he meant one of the lower levels. In the end I thought the +15 damage was +15%

Flurry was 60%, I forgot to revise that from the draft. 60% of 25 additional base damage is 15.

[RogerDodger]

I normally go BKB, Shieldbraker, Heart and if the game is still going on Demonic Breastplate for a mega -18 armor. Also Steamboots are a 100% must for him, Enhanced Marchers do nothing for him as his agility is very low.

[Credge]

I'll have to give not getting cannonball until 7 for a change.

[CommunismNow]

Hey there, I'm having a lot of fun playing panda. I enjoy melee heroes but panda seems a lot more interesting than most as you don't auto-attack much in fights which makes for much more enjoyable micro, combos are fun :)

I have a question though, I've read a few guides which say that cannonball is guaranteed after flick. It certainly seems to be this way when I have lvl4 flick, but I usually only get lvl1 at the start and the 20% slow doesn't seem to be enough to be guaranteed to hit cannonball if I do it straight away, I'm having to guess which direction they are going in to be more certain of a hit. Am I doing the combo wrong? It doesn't seem to be possible to do it any earlier than I am so is it actually not guaranteed until you have leveled flick up a bit more?

[Chong_Li]

Cool guide, though I don't recommend using 6 items (unless you get post haste). One item slot should always be reserved for a TP stone.

Edit: Also, you might try cranking up the graphics settings for your screenshots. It doesn't really matter if the game is unplayable at those settings, you can never tell with screenshots.

[EroticMonkey]

sorry sir but you only failed with the skill build is better get

1:flick/cannonball/flick
2:cannonball/flick
3:flick
4:cannonball
5:flick
6:ult
7:flick

flick then,at level 7 is less -8 of armor, pwn low armor heroes,cannoball and ult kill 99.99% that work

[myproxy]

Thanks for the guide Travakh

[Travakh]

Hey there, I'm having a lot of fun playing panda. I enjoy melee heroes but panda seems a lot more interesting than most as you don't auto-attack much in fights which makes for much more enjoyable micro, combos are fun :)

I have a question though, I've read a few guides which say that cannonball is guaranteed after flick. It certainly seems to be this way when I have lvl4 flick, but I usually only get lvl1 at the start and the 20% slow doesn't seem to be enough to be guaranteed to hit cannonball if I do it straight away, I'm having to guess which direction they are going in to be more certain of a hit. Am I doing the combo wrong? It doesn't seem to be possible to do it any earlier than I am so is it actually not guaranteed until you have leveled flick up a bit more?

At level one it requires prediction, but when in lane at the creep line it's fairly simple to predict where they're running - back to their creeps, away from you.

But yes, the combo isn't too reliable at one and cannonball doesn't do much until you have it levelled, so it's simpler and potentially more damaging to just flick then turn around and flurry them back once or twice.

At maxing flick at 7: Flick is a single target disable that doesn't scale that much (10% improvement to slow each level, the flip time remains the same at all levels). Cannonball is an aoe disable, the stun duration improving as you level it. Maxing flick before cannonball is fine if you spend all your time solo ganking, but solo ganking as a panda is not what happens outside of EM pub games.

@ six item core build: You build BKB in the stash with the sixth slot used for TPs. When you finish the bkb you swap it out for a bracer. Bracers are disposable.

[CommunismNow]

sorry sir but you only failed with the skill build is better get

1:flick/cannonball/flick
2:cannonball/flick
3:flick
4:cannonball
5:flick
6:ult
7:flick

flick then,at level 7 is less -8 of armor, pwn low armor heroes,cannoball and ult kill 99.99% that work

Then what do you do while your ult is on cd? That's all very well if all you want to do is get solo ganks now and again but having some levels of flurry is very useful for all sorts of things. Without that Panda is pretty useless in early fights when his ultimate isn't ready. I'd definitely prefer to get some levels of flurry too, its a cheap manacost move that is useful in lots of situations.

[Blockk]

You should mention that a Cannonball in unenterable terrain with a homecoming scroll is always nice.

[NyRe]

This guide somewhat misses the main strengh of panda - he's really an AoE DPS'er and stunner much more than a disabler. Panda can and should be playing ganks in many lineups, but it's true strength is the synergy with heroes who can gather the opposing team in one spot - Tempest or Kraken. Panda is among the few characters whose AoE DPS scales infinitely, and is still more AoE-oriented than, say, Hammerstorm and in real games you should abuse primarily this, not your disables. It only takes a farmed panda and a good tempest blink to genocide a team and that is what makes this character so good.

Also, with panda's ridiculous farming (4 flurries kill a creepwave in like 2 seconds for 120 mana, which outshines even Soulstealer) he's much more a carry than you state. Also, stacking ancients and maybe Legion yellow camp deserves a special mention since panda will probably be able to kill those stacks at least as early as a moon queen if not earlier.

Stuff that also deserves mention: Panda has several hard counters. The number one counter will be Vindicator - his aura will passively(!) shut down your whole arsenal, since you cannot combo your skills, you cannot spam flurries, you cannot do practically anything. Unless you're 100% sure that someone kills Vindicator early in a teamfight, picking panda with him on the lineup is unadvisable. Laning vs him is a breeze though since his harassment will do literally nothing to you as you can flurry the very second he casts his curse. So, in case you end up vs him, take his lane and try to gank him whenever possible so that he dies fast in teamfights later. Another hero you wouldn't wanna have on the enemy lineup is Jeraziah with his ult that makes your whole AoE arsenal worthless. This is all for late-game, ofc, Panda can still gank early-game vs such lineups, but if you see Jeraziah or Vindicator, there are really better picks than Panda.

P.S:

Someone should really do tests on Flurry thoroughly. This skill in battle feels much stronger than it does from it's stats and I'm under a strong impression that it can either hit twice or doesn't disable normal attack (it sometimes looks like he's still attacking in flight, just without his attack animation). In the latter case which I find likely there's really a point in getting a Runed Axe because it bolsters your AoE and gives much-needed mana regen. Also, you can do a simple trick - if you barely miss a flurry and you're sliding just at the edge of an enemy unit, you can still land a hit by rightclicking ground near him in-flight.

[sieneh]

I disagree with one portion of the guide, the skill build.

Depending on your lane partner, you may max out flick or Cannonball first(though I always put skills into Cannonbal, flick/flurry are optional depending on my lane).

If you are in a lane with Andromeda or say Demented, getting Flick maxed will be far more beneficial than flurry or in some cases, Cannonball.

Again, the skill build should be done on a game-to-game basis and not something thats set in stone.
Overall, pretty good.

[EroticMonkey]

Then what do you do while your ult is on cd? That's all very well if all you want to do is get solo ganks now and again but having some levels of flurry is very useful for all sorts of things. Without that Panda is pretty useless in early fights when his ultimate isn't ready. I'd definitely prefer to get some levels of flurry too, its a cheap manacost move that is useful in lots of situations.


get a mana tube,and later a runed axe mana all problems resolved,imo the level 1,2 of flurry is pretty useless

[NyRe]

get a mana tube,and later a runed axe mana all problems resolved,imo the level 1,2 of flurry is pretty useless

Level 1,2 flurry is a godly lasthit/harass instrument. Not in every lane, but if you're against double melee or someone who denies well, it's very good.

[Testknight]

Great guide, but couldn't you use Geometer's in a way similar to Puzzlebox? Pop images, ult, go to town?

And in this case, would it be a viable luxury? (I know it was mentioned in rejected but you didn't mention this capacity)

[CommunismNow]

yeah I somewhat disagree with my earlier post you just quoted now. I think now I go flick cannon cannon flurry cannon ult cannon flurry flurry flurry ult flick flick flick stats ult stats. That is prioritising flurry over flick but not cannonball. Because the 325 damage from cannon should be got asap.

Something I've noticed about flurry is that after you finish it you always hit whoever you flurried before they hit you. later on I'm going to try flurryhit flurry hit etc. could be ridiculous if it works.

[sieneh]

Also, has anyone tested if Hatchet is amplified BEFORE or AFTER flurry?

I didn't run any proper tests in practice mode, but from what I can tell hatchet stacks with flurry, I can't can't figure out if its applied before or after. Some concrete evidence would be nice.

[audr3y]

insanitarious gets a little too much credit here. It's easy too build and yes, it rocks, but its basically better on heros like rampage if u ask me. The SH is waaay better and i've actually had some awesome results with hack and slash (i knooow, it's not even that good an item, but given ur argumentation, it's kinda justified by the str and movement speed. This item is also **** fast to build)

[Skull4er]

hack and slash costs more then a shielbreaker which greatly increases your dmg. there is always an better option to get before you start thinking about hack and slash. just my opinion.

[Hatsim]

Would like to say one thing, u suck... i play panda mostly all the time. and i find your items bad exept for 2 riftshard and heart, the other items fail

get phase boots so u can land your flick, flurry the way backwards and attack during the reduced speed and armor time, if you dont kill them yet, you suck usually takes lvl2flick and 3x flurry attacks to kill any int hero.

my fun runs ends up like this "Pwnage" http://img145.imageshack.us/i/pandaownage.jpg/ was fun :)

[Travakh]

Also, has anyone tested if Hatchet is amplified BEFORE or AFTER flurry?

I didn't run any proper tests in practice mode, but from what I can tell hatchet stacks with flurry, I can't can't figure out if its applied before or after. Some concrete evidence would be nice.

It doesn't make a difference because both modifiers are multiplicative.

Re panda as carry: Panda's role in team battles is a point disabler. His role as an aoe-carry with flurry comes into play *after* he's ulted and flick-cannonballed. You'll be playing him as a ganker/disabler no matter how well you farm with him (and I agree he is a superb farmer, but he should not be spending time farming, he's simply too good a ganker).

[CommunismNow]

Would like to say one thing, u suck... i play panda mostly all the time. and i find your items bad exept for 2 riftshard and heart, the other items fail

get phase boots so u can land your flick, flurry the way backwards and attack during the reduced speed and armor time, if you dont kill them yet, you suck usually takes lvl2flick and 3x flurry attacks to kill any int hero.

my fun runs ends up like this "Pwnage" http://img145.imageshack.us/i/pandaownage.jpg/ was fun :)

why would you get riftshards on panda? Do crits proc on flurry or his ult? Otherwise the extra damage is pretty bad value for money. Ideally you want to get strength items as it's only his base damage that is multiplied. Using panda's autoattack seems like silliness as he has piss poor agility and his combat skills have low cool downs.

[Hatsim]

why would you get riftshards on panda? Do crits proc on flurry or his ult? Otherwise the extra damage is pretty bad value for money. Ideally you want to get strength items as it's only his base damage that is multiplied. Using panda's autoattack seems like silliness as he has piss poor agility and his combat skills have low cool downs.


It works with Facesmash, and 1xxx hits is good to kill enemies with :) and its cheap.

[Xylias]

Panda is an energy glutton, and the only solutions you provide to that is the Power Supply, which is dependent somewhat on your allies wailing on you, and Frostwolf's Skull, implying that higher max mana is some kind of energy management.

lol

Put a Sustainer or something in your guide. Some kind of extra mana regen is damn near essential on Panda, if you don't want to be going back to the base every three minutes, after every gank, or every team fight.

[Ozzzzz]

Panda is an energy glutton, and the only solutions you provide to that is the Power Supply, which is dependent somewhat on your allies wailing on you, and Frostwolf's Skull, implying that higher max mana is some kind of energy management.

lol

Put a Sustainer or something in your guide. Some kind of extra mana regen is damn near essential on Panda, if you don't want to be going back to the base every three minutes, after every gank, or every team fight.

bottle+powersupply+stats from steamboots and bracers are MORE then enough.

[Travakh]

Put a Sustainer or something in your guide. Some kind of extra mana regen is damn near essential on Panda, if you don't want to be going back to the base every three minutes, after every gank, or every team fight.

+15 int from items and a bottle allows for as many ganks as you want (if you're ganking, you have map control and rune control and thus will be bottling) and not heading back to base after a major team battle + push is *stupid* unless you're pushing for the win, in which case the game is nearing its conclusion and you're high level enough to have decent base mana regen anyway.

[Neescher]

Would like to say one thing, u suck... i play panda mostly all the time. and i find your items bad exept for 2 riftshard and heart, the other items fail

get phase boots so u can land your flick, flurry the way backwards and attack during the reduced speed and armor time, if you dont kill them yet, you suck usually takes lvl2flick and 3x flurry attacks to kill any int hero.

my fun runs ends up like this "Pwnage" http://img145.imageshack.us/i/pandaownage.jpg/ was fun :)
Riftshards does only one thing: Improve your ult. It's way too expensive to do that, considering that in ganks your target dies from the ult and follow-ups most of the time, and in team fights your ult is primarily a disabler. Riftshards is a fun item, but not one you want to waste money on if you're up against a good team.

Runed Axe only improve your mana regen... you can get a mana tube, sustainer or ring of the teacher if you really have mana problems. But with Steam Boots, Bracer, Bottle and Mana Supply you won't have mana problems. Runed Axe is a waste of gold.

Phase Boots: Again, the only thing about that item that's better than Steam Boots, is a speed boost for 5 seconds every 15 seconds. Steam Boots on the other hand give you a better passive speed, along with 6 int to help your mana pool and 12 str to greatly improve your HP (which you need) and lots of base damage, which scales with Flurry and your Ult.

And about that screen... I think everyone could do that with 99% of the heroes, when playing with players who are much less skilled than yourself.

[AtroCty]

Well, I disagree with the skill build. Skilling ultimate at lvl 6 is a waste, because you have a bad manapool. Instead of that you better can skill up your basic combo (like on pebbels) which is A) more effective at the begin and B) better recastable.


Flick (Initiate, and insane Firstblood skill [Demented Shaman and Flick him in your own creeps... Heal wave = gg])
Flurry
Cannonball
Cannonball
Cannonball
Flurry
Cannonball
Flurry
Flurry
Face Smash
Face Smash
Flick
Flick
Flick
Stats
Face Smash
Stats to 25

[Ozzzzz]

Well, I disagree with the skill build. Skilling ultimate at lvl 6 is a waste, because you have a bad manapool. Instead of that you better can skill up your basic combo (like on pebbels) which is A) more effective at the begin and B) better recastable.


Flick (Initiate, and insane Firstblood skill [Demented Shaman and Flick him in your own creeps... Heal wave = gg])
Flurry
Cannonball
Cannonball
Cannonball
Flurry
Cannonball
Flurry
Flurry
Face Smash
Face Smash
Flick
Flick
Flick
Stats
Face Smash
Stats to 25



i could be wrong here but i'm pretty sure you cant get cannonball 3,4,5

[Mark`]

i could be wrong here but i'm pretty sure you cant get cannonball 3,4,5

You are wrong here. the required skill levels go 1/3/5/7 for every non-ult. So you could get cannonball 3 at level 5.

[ImWithStupi1]

I prefer having flick and flurry maxxed out over cannonball due to insane more damage those skills do. If you have higher lvl flurry you'll have enemies disabled for longer duration then lvling that stun. Not even magebane can blink out while you spam flurry.

[SmokeShow]

Great Guide, good job. I read some things NyRe said and would agree with most of it.

The only thing I would disagree with (maybe I dunno) is that Runed axe is a bad item...

You're correct that his furries do cleave and this may be all you need however I find that Flurry really sucks up the mana in a hurry.

The Runed axe satisfies two things but first and foremost it ups his much needed mana regen which I love!

Secondly, if you attack a creap wave once a few times and soften them up you can smash them all into oblivion with ONE flurry rather than 3-4. This further saves his mana.

Getting a runed axe as opposed to the insanitarius though is questionable.

[ImWithStupi1]

Nyre said well btw. Dont ever EVER pick panda when you have vindicator in opposite team. Renders you totally useless :mad:

[Hi]

up!!

[Flesseck]

So with the new boot changes, what item builds would you get now? Would you still get Steamboots?

[Travakh]

So with the new boot changes, what item builds would you get now? Would you still get Steamboots?

Enhanced is better this cycle, the IAS on steamboots is irrelevant, and 10 base damage on the steamboots is outdone by the +24 attack damage on enhanced.

But in my opinion going straight for the travels is better on this hero, as of this cycle. None of the boots right now are well optimized for panda.

[Wtsfireballs]

Uhm, is Abyssal skull good for panda? Like more base dmg and some mana reg too, seems good to me atleast.

[Oblivion291]

Uhm, is Abyssal skull good for panda? Like more base dmg and some mana reg too, seems good to me atleast.
Decent, but its better that your other teammates are better off getting it.


Panda's main purpose is to disable the other team and stay alive, so you can further continue that disabling. Your better off getting defensive/tanking items.

If you get that item, it's for your teammates only. Most of the time though, they will get it. If you have 3 melee including you, then it's a good item. Most of the time though, you'll be paired off with someone who can get the item like Pestilence, Madman or something.

[abadgaem]

Seconding the point in the post above about Panda's role: He's a melee crowd control / tank and hardly a carry. The way I play him is as kind of like a quarterback in picking the most threatening hero to disable and otherwise locking up as many heroes as possible with cannonball --> flurry. BKB is a core item for Panda because it allows him to pull off his skills uninterrupted.

I go heart instead of shieldbreaker's though, to maximize his ability to tank and survive autoattacks while cc-ing enemy heroes.

What's funny is that it was through empirical practice that I realized the most effective build to complement his role is almost the same as the maker of this guide. I used to get runed axe but I found that power supply + bottle is cheaper, better suited for the kind of regen Panda needs, and contributes better to his survivability. Powersupply more often then not has saved my ass in hairy situations, giving me just enough to cannonball in the middle of trees or some other unassailable position for me to TP or run from.

To start I get a mana battery, 2 runes of blight and 3 minor totems. Then depending on how I feel I get a hatchet, then bottle, then boots. From here I go directly to BKB, skipping bracers. As long as you play smart I think getting bracers on him is unnecessary, and I already have enough trouble with inventory space to hold dust and TP's.

[Oblivion291]

Seconding the point in the post above about Panda's role: He's a melee crowd control / tank and hardly a carry. The way I play him is as kind of like a quarterback in picking the most threatening hero to disable and otherwise locking up as many heroes as possible with cannonball --> flurry. BKB is a core item for Panda because it allows him to pull off his skills uninterrupted.

I go heart instead of shieldbreaker's though, to maximize his ability to tank and survive autoattacks while cc-ing enemy heroes.

What's funny is that it was through empirical practice that I realized the most effective build to complement his role is almost the same as the maker of this guide. I used to get runed axe but I found that power supply + bottle is cheaper, better suited for the kind of regen Panda needs, and contributes better to his survivability. Powersupply more often then not has saved my ass in hairy situations, giving me just enough to cannonball in the middle of trees or some other unassailable position for me to TP or run from.

To start I get a mana battery, 2 runes of blight and 3 minor totems. Then depending on how I feel I get a hatchet, then bottle, then boots. From here I go directly to BKB, skipping bracers. As long as you play smart I think getting bracers on him is unnecessary, and I already have enough trouble with inventory space to hold dust and TP's.

Works well. Bottle isn't really needed once you get two bracers though. Better let the good roamers bottle the runs you know?

[Eightingco]

i used to get steam boots ... but with the patch steam boots only give +65 speed while the others give +70 and up. Its hard for me to catch ppl and flick. Thats why iono if I should get phase or still stick with steam. The extra movespeed helps. its like +25 movespeed i think. Can some1 answer me :) itll be helpful.

[sieneh]

Either that or plated greaves, both work now, mostly because of more MS.

Also, it would be nice if you included Tablet, its one of the best items in terms of price<->usefulness on him with the recent change(s).

So many interesting things to do with it :)

[Ilfirin]

I start with 2 runes, 2 crowns, and a mana pot. I get a hatchet from the outpost asap, and either a mana battery or a shield depending on my enemies in the lane. (i always get the mana battery eventually, though i pretty much never bother upgrading it). I work on getting ghost marchers and finishing bracers, then go ganking. I get shrunken head next, then heart. I haven't had a game last much past that, but I guess Id prolly get a demonic breastplate next as ganking is way over and teamfights are more helped by that then much of anything else, especially since if theres no serious initiator on my team I just do it lol.

[MagicPness]

mmm... I play panda ALOT, and I often do well with him as a DPS / disable - tank. I never solo with Panda, simply because he's much more powerful with a lane partner.

Skills
1. Flick
2. Cannonball
3. Cannonball
4. Flurry
5. Cannonball
6. Ulti
7. Cannonball
8. Flurry
9. Flurry
10. Flurry
11. Ulti
12. Flick
13 -> stats / flick alternately
--> Reasoning: if you're against 2 melee, or even one, you can time a cannonball when they're moving in to deny, dealing dmg while they're stunned with lane partner, as they run away, you can land a few more hits, and then flick them back to your team mate, landing a few more hits. If you can't catch them focus on the other teammate, if done properly your cannonball should be out of cool down again, and if mana willing, throw a cannonball and smash some more faces in or use it to run.

The cannonball stun with 1 level of flick works well, especially with a lane partner, because with enough practice & timing, you can flick & stun (for ~2 seconds), flurry once for 0.3 seconds, and face smash if necessary, totally ~7 seconds of disable with a teammate, for almost your whole mana pool, even the flick stun combo is 165 mana that can do up to 300+ dmg with a lane partner, and reducing the enemy hero's armor and MS.

As for items, I start with hatchet, 2 minor totems, 2 sets of blight, leaving you with ~97 gold left, with 3-5 early creep kills in the first minute you can buy your mana battery, then go for power supply, 2 bracers of str, steam boots on str, mana tube -> sustainer -> rune axe if necessary, or shrunken head.
-> Insanitarious (with rune axe or shrunken head dmg boost, near level 15-19, base dmg will be ~170, attack dmg ~200, yielding anywhere from 250-400 dmg flurries with insanitarious activated and w/e -armor bonus's)
--> with insanitarious activated near mid/late game, your health with runed axe decreases a lot slower, plus your attack dmg nears 300 dmg, making flurries deal ~350, with ulti hits doing ~450-600 / hit, any low hp INT or agil char is dead meat, especially if you can combine insanitarious with a shrunken head.

I usually go runed axe simply because your farming / regen goes up a lot (though sustainer works too), so you can alternate pushing lanes and jungling, or sustained ganks without going back, as moving from one side of the map to another usually is a full heal with a power supply.

[W1S3B0Y]

and the screen-shots spice everything up.
/Premium

Actually made me LOL.

Yah good guide - but please replace the screenies xD.

[Stickyrolls]

Plz dont level flurry in the lane.

[Baltie]

umm dont gohst marchers contribute to the flurry or face smash damage?

it says in ur guide that flurry does damage equal to one attack (and
your attack damage is increased by the +16 damage in ghost marchers) plus
a percentage of your base damage.

same thing applies to face smash

[KEENGAMER]

it says in ur guide that flurry does damage equal to one attack (and
your attack damage is increased by the +16 damage in ghost marchers)

Base damage is increased by boosting your primary attribute so steamboots are better.

Also, that's a bad skill build, flurry/cannonball/cannonball/flurry etc with ult at 6 is much better.

[telra]

Ghostmarchers VS Steamboots

Taking into accout max. level Flurry/Face smash

Dmg impact item -> skill


Skill / Item Flurry (45%) Face smash (120%)
Ghostmarchers 24+0.45*0=24 24+1.2*0=24
Steamboots 10+0.45*10=15 10+1.2*10=22


As can be seen, for both flurry and face smash, ghostmarchers ARE superior in direct dmg.

IAS sint really that needed for panda (but would be nice)

Ghostmarchers
+dmg
+huntdown/escape ability
-stats

Steamboots
+Stats

Ghostmarchers allow you to hunt down enemies and do slightly more dmg (10dmg difference on lvl 3 U), but steamboots give you more HP/HPregen, you can change stats from STR to INTfor that little boost when you are just 10mana short for a skilll/combo

But after all, its situational....The portal boots are surrelly the bet (MS, port to whole map to push, gang, defend,escape) but cost 1200 more

[MegaPot]

runed axe can be useful of mana regen

[telra]

runed axe can be useful of mana regen
runed axe not really so great, doesnt give him hp. The 125% is nice but for just 325g he can get just an scarab and he is ok. Fr hp regen insanitarius is more then enough + bottle and power supply
the dmg is not base so not that great for flurrry and face smash

[MegaPot]

oh....ok thanks for the tip ^^

[Vendor]

I hate iron tager,
you dodge? ATOMIC COLLIDER

you are a second rate soldier

[Hi]

upupup

[TheFGA]

good guide

[CupONoodle]

Nice guide, btw might wanna try my item build for playing mind games.

-Double Bracers (First of all bracers cover his lack of hp which is sort of a problem)

-Power Supply (Grants the little mana and hp you need for durable battles (essential to mindgame playing imo)

-Ghost Marchers (Marchers helps you juke alot easier (walking through units can really shake off players + grants extra damage for your spells which bases on base dmg )

-Stormspirit (Storm spirit can do 2 things for you, 1st option: it lets you disable 1 hero if you by any chance are opposing 2 enemies at once, which lets you play with one of the heroes awhile. The 2nd option is catching up with running heroes, since flick has such a short range its hard to use it on running heroes and cannonball is only worse because the air time takes too much time and if you by chance miss, theres always a lost delay. However with storm spirit you can wait for them to land again and flick + cannonball and if neccessary flurry/face smash.


Also i usually go for flurry last since the base dmg is better then. I always level flick first if i am not solo, since the armor debuff helps you score an easy first blood. An early flurry can be good however for getting last hits on creeps and breaking channeling spells.

[DOnTAsk]

Why wait to cannonball after flick with stormspirit? I'm sorry, but if you know exactly when they are going to land, you can nail them every time with the cannonball and just save flick for when they recover from the stun. Much better.

[CupONoodle]

Well depends on the situation ofc, but if its a full hp hero. Thats the way you wanna go.

[wala]

Stormspirit sucks on panda, because it has limited synergy. It lets you

a) gain a small movement advantage, which may be enough to land a flick,

and b) lets you get a cc possibly for landing a cannonball.

I advice against it for two reasons: it delays your shruken head, which is so vital on panda, and it doesn't counter-synergizes (?) with you flick because the minus armor boosts all your other skills for 6 seconds.

Panda is used to gank when not teamfighting and cc when teamfighting.

During ganking phases, it's unlikely you'll have stormspirit, unless you skip bracers/power/boots/bottle, which won't make you useful (needs mana regen and +str) so it's not useful there. If you don't surprise the enemy by coming out of woods or using haste/invis, you're not going to make a successful gank anyway.

During teamfights, a shruken head is much more useful then stormspirit.

Perhaps during mid-lategame stormspirit might be useful, but a portal key would be much better, with the only downside being it doesn't come in parts. The extra movement speed isn't that useful, the cc isn't very useful (you don't solo gank 100% of the time), and the mana regen is fully covered by bottle+ps.

[BananaRUSH]

I always thought runed axe would be good but now I know i was wrong thx :D

[_5p1t_]

panda roxx

[Nakke`]

portal key + shrunken head = win

[SReis]

what about Frostburn?