Engineer Item Build

[Nieve]

So I've been playing a lot of Engineer lately, and I noticed that the best core items for me so far in early game were definitly ring of sorcery, plated greaves, tablet of command, and then spellshards.
But if the game goes for an extended period of time, I find myself in a situation where I have too much gold even while warding, and eventually want to make use of engi being a ranged Agi Hero and semi-carry.

So, I have a few questions what you guys think.
First, should I drop the plated greaves for steamboots just in general? I need some survivability on my boots, so ghost marchers are out of the question.
Steamboots feel too slow, but plated greaves give me a bit of both, good movement with extra armor and few stats for everything. But doesnt help me semi-carry later. Or should I just swap them for post haste later on?

Second, what should be the first luxury for me to pick up? We're talking mostly later into the game here, when no team makes big progress.
Frostburn for extra survivability and slow modifier?
Or make extra use of those spellshards and go for a thunderclaw? Should I upgrade it into a charged hammer then immediatly or go for other items?
Is Wingbow a good idea? Or Savage Mace?

Or do you guys think I should stay true to a support/initation role and get a sheepstick?

Give me some ideas, thank you.

[Ackwell1]

ive had some good games with steam boots--> shroud---> frostburn----> savage

[Remaissance]

Same problem.

Been playing quite a bit of Engi and there's a lack of decent (up to date) guides out there.

I think it really depends on how you play him. Being so versatile, so many different builds are 'viable'.

When i play early mines i go ring of sorc, spell shards etc.

However, lately i've tried doing the semi carry right off the bat. Lack of mana early game really hurts him.

I'm still testing!
------------

In response to the boots, i've always gone marchers. I need the extra speed but i'd like to try steam followed by shroud.

Once again, more testing!

[Roefl]

I usually go for:
RoTt
Power supply
Steam
Energizer
Tablet

[Farosarg]

Important things for Engineer:

1. Positioning.
2. Mana/Manaregen.
3. Lining up skills.

Stormspirit helps up with them all, Tablet is also a good item. If you are going for more damage, Nullfire is really good on him as it helps a ton with lining up the skills and is a really underestimated item.

Thing is, you can't just go for a set item-build like you go on say Maliken. With Engineer you have to build according to what you need.

[PrestonLee]

First, should I drop the plated greaves for steamboots just in general? I need some survivability on my boots, so ghost marchers are out of the question.
Steamboots feel too slow, but plated greaves give me a bit of both, good movement with extra armor and few stats for everything. But doesnt help me semi-carry later. Or should I just swap them for post haste later on?I'd personally prefer Ghosts all the time on him because of the positioning capability early on, but the choice between Plated and Steams is situational/preference; you pick whether you want the armor and extra movespeed+pushing utility, or you want more attack speed on Steams and stat manipulation+bottle/regen abusing.

Just keep in mind that if you're picking up a bottle, Steamboots stat manipulating makes bottle+Chalice pickup MUCH more efficient (put on Strength when using Chalice, agi when sipping bottle, and Int when casting spells, you get tons more mana efficiency that way).



Second, what should be the first luxury for me to pick up? We're talking mostly later into the game here, when no team makes big progress.
Frostburn for extra survivability and slow modifier?
Or make extra use of those spellshards and go for a thunderclaw? Should I upgrade it into a charged hammer then immediatly or go for other items?
Is Wingbow a good idea? Or Savage Mace?

Or do you guys think I should stay true to a support/initation role and get a sheepstick?

Give me some ideas, thank you.:HackNSlash:is decent if you want to take a more semi-carry approach; especially if you're going Steamboots or Plated instead of Ghosts because it helps a lot with the extra movement speed, and also synergizes well with Steams to give nice attack speed. But again I don't rely on it too much for movement speed as I usually take Ghosts and just am more careful with positioning play so I don't take damage.

Some other pickups that could work well with him going semi-carry are :NullfireBlade:, it synergizes well with his skills and also gives him mana burn and some good damage. :Puzzlebox: is also great, and can be a monster pickup if you can use it well. Engineer's ult just traps people in it/slows them if they try to get out (if they do follow up with a Turret/Keg that pushes them back in/traps them there), so Puzzle can molest them. Even without ulti, just nailing a good Turret is good enough to make Puzzle raping a breeze,

Also it's a lot of farm but :HackNSlash:+:NullfireBlade:+:Puzzlebox: all work REALLY well with each other for semicarrying, especially on Engineer. They just work so well in combination with each other, and give Engineer a buttload of auto attack damage and utility as well. Nullfire stops a target in their tracks, Frostburn autos slows them and makes Keg/Turret placement a breeze, and then your Puzzle minions can just do their thing without any effort and rape. :p

The other pickups to mention are obviously Portal Key and maintaining your supportive initiation role. Some good combos with those are :Portalkey:+:KuldrasSheepstick:/:FrostfieldPlate: (both are obviously great), and then top it off with a Spellshards after for magic armor cut and reduced cooldowns on everything. Spellshards are amazing as a later luxury on him, just don't rush it first item though because he needs those other utility pickups first for Engi to function really well. Keep in mind that Spellshards+Sheep/Frostfield give him a basically unlimited mana pool to spam all his skills at his leisure, which is obviously a good thing.

..Then throw in that Thunderclaw if you still want it as it synergizes with Spellshards. In general though, he doesn't need Thunderclaw to farm at all because he's capable of flash farming with his skills (alternate between mine+turret and mine+keg to kill a creep wave) for great farm. Again, getting the mana regen to spam your skills over and over will help more than rushing a Thunderclaw pretty much always. Thunderclaw is honestly pretty crappy on Engineer, people are just used to getting it because it used to work so well with his OP turret, and people think it as core when it's not that great at all on him now.

:AssassinShroud: is, meh, decent. It could add to your arsenal for more movement speed/positioning and some damage. He should prioritize on dealing with his mana pool problems first though because it's already bad as it is, and throwing in a Shroud to soak up more of his low mana pool early on doesn't make things any better. You could say the same thing for Portal Key I suppose, but at least Portal key doesn't get countered by detection and is instant.

:Nullstone: is situationally nice for the regen and survivability via single target spell negation, but it's a pretty expensive and selfish pickup whereas Engineer should usually either not be taking any damage at all or disintegrating in a team fight fast because he got focused. Grab it if you notice that Parasite/Pebbles/Fayde constantly jumping you all the time or something if you can manage it. But then again this is only if you just have tons of cash saved up, don't afk farm for 20 minutes just so you can rush this, that's obviously bad unless you're carrying in horribles 1300 land or something :p

:RingOfSorcery: :Energizer: :NomesWisdom: :BarrierIdol: are always nice for your team as well.

and :TabletOfCommand: :Stormspirit: are givens on him imo, they both just work so well on him, I always consider rushing either tablet or Stormspirit as his first "big" pickup just because he needs the mana pool and the utility on either of those just synergizes so well with him. especially Tablet, it's a monster on him if you can use it well, it gives him SOOO much more options and gives him a better mana pool as well.

[zOle`]

So I've been playing a lot of Engineer lately, and I noticed that the best core items for me so far in early game were definitly ring of sorcery, plated greaves, tablet of command, and then spellshards.
But if the game goes for an extended period of time, I find myself in a situation where I have too much gold even while warding, and eventually want to make use of engi being a ranged Agi Hero and semi-carry.

So, I have a few questions what you guys think.
First, should I drop the plated greaves for steamboots just in general? I need some survivability on my boots, so ghost marchers are out of the question.
Steamboots feel too slow, but plated greaves give me a bit of both, good movement with extra armor and few stats for everything. But doesnt help me semi-carry later. Or should I just swap them for post haste later on?

Second, what should be the first luxury for me to pick up? We're talking mostly later into the game here, when no team makes big progress.
Frostburn for extra survivability and slow modifier?
Or make extra use of those spellshards and go for a thunderclaw? Should I upgrade it into a charged hammer then immediatly or go for other items?
Is Wingbow a good idea? Or Savage Mace?

Or do you guys think I should stay true to a support/initation role and get a sheepstick?

Give me some ideas, thank you.

Support/miner semi-carry

1.:Steamboots: 1.:EnhancedMarchers:
2.:Stormspirit: 2.:AssassinShroud:
3.:SacrificialStone: 3.:Nullstone:
4.:KuldrasSheepstick: 4.:ChargedHammer:
5.:Nullstone: 5.:SavageMace:
6.:FrostfieldPlate: 6.:Wingbow:

[Cranium]

This is the silliest thread I have ever seen.

Semi-Carry Engi

:ChargedHammer: :HarkonsBlade: Spellshards :Hellflower: :Steamboots: :Wingbow:

Who needs the old turret?

[wulfgar863]

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroesguide_view.php?gid=33601

[PrestonLee]

Support

3.:SacrificialStone:
ohh i cringed a little inside

[CroWke]

:Nullstone: is situationally nice for the regen and survivability via single target spell negation, but it's a pretty expensive and selfish pickup whereas Engineer should usually either not be taking any damage at all or disintegrating in a team fight fast because he got focused. Grab it if you notice that Parasite/Pebbles/Fayde constantly jumping you all the time or something if you can manage it. But then again this is only if you just have tons of cash saved up, don't afk farm for 20 minutes just so you can rush this, that's obviously bad unless you're carrying in horribles 1300 land or something :p

Wouldn't a shrunken head do better? Just to keep you alive after you jump in and ult. This way you're more likely to get a good keg off.

[PrestonLee]

Wouldn't a shrunken head do better? Just to keep you alive after you jump in and ult. This way you're more likely to get a good keg off.well yeah, but usually you're getting the Nullstone because of the regen. The extra agi and mana pool also help. Engi's main problem is keeping that mana pool up and obviously Nullstone helps with this, and also gives you that extra spell negation for survivability.

Shrunken is obviously situationally good, but that's a lot of farm you're blowing assuming you're playing a more ganky/supportive role, and it's not doing anything for your mana pool. Great after you've gotten all your other stuff already though and you're using Pkey for initiations.

Think Magmus/Behemoth, sure Shrunken's great for surviving initiations later but after he's gotten his other stuff already.

[Nieve]

Thanks for everyone's input!


I'd personally prefer Ghosts all the time on him because of the positioning capability early on, but the choice between Plated and Steams is situational/preference; you pick whether you want the armor and extra movespeed+pushing utility, or you want more attack speed on Steams and stat manipulation+bottle/regen abusing.

Just keep in mind that if you're picking up a bottle, Steamboots stat manipulating makes bottle+Chalice pickup MUCH more efficient (put on Strength when using Chalice, agi when sipping bottle, and Int when casting spells, you get tons more mana efficiency that way).

:HackNSlash:is decent if you want to take a more semi-carry approach; especially if you're going Steamboots or Plated instead of Ghosts because it helps a lot with the extra movement speed, and also synergizes well with Steams to give nice attack speed. But again I don't rely on it too much for movement speed as I usually take Ghosts and just am more careful with positioning play so I don't take damage.

Some other pickups that could work well with him going semi-carry are :NullfireBlade:, it synergizes well with his skills and also gives him mana burn and some good damage. :Puzzlebox: is also great, and can be a monster pickup if you can use it well. Engineer's ult just traps people in it/slows them if they try to get out (if they do follow up with a Turret/Keg that pushes them back in/traps them there), so Puzzle can molest them. Even without ulti, just nailing a good Turret is good enough to make Puzzle raping a breeze,

Also it's a lot of farm but :HackNSlash:+:NullfireBlade:+:Puzzlebox: all work REALLY well with each other for semicarrying, especially on Engineer. They just work so well in combination with each other, and give Engineer a buttload of auto attack damage and utility as well. Nullfire stops a target in their tracks, Frostburn autos slows them and makes Keg/Turret placement a breeze, and then your Puzzle minions can just do their thing without any effort and rape. :p

The other pickups to mention are obviously Portal Key and maintaining your supportive initiation role. Some good combos with those are :Portalkey:+:KuldrasSheepstick:/:FrostfieldPlate: (both are obviously great), and then top it off with a Spellshards after for magic armor cut and reduced cooldowns on everything. Spellshards are amazing as a later luxury on him, just don't rush it first item though because he needs those other utility pickups first for Engi to function really well. Keep in mind that Spellshards+Sheep/Frostfield give him a basically unlimited mana pool to spam all his skills at his leisure, which is obviously a good thing.

..Then throw in that Thunderclaw if you still want it as it synergizes with Spellshards. In general though, he doesn't need Thunderclaw to farm at all because he's capable of flash farming with his skills (alternate between mine+turret and mine+keg to kill a creep wave) for great farm. Again, getting the mana regen to spam your skills over and over will help more than rushing a Thunderclaw pretty much always. Thunderclaw is honestly pretty crappy on Engineer, people are just used to getting it because it used to work so well with his OP turret, and people think it as core when it's not that great at all on him now.

:AssassinShroud: is, meh, decent. It could add to your arsenal for more movement speed/positioning and some damage. He should prioritize on dealing with his mana pool problems first though because it's already bad as it is, and throwing in a Shroud to soak up more of his low mana pool early on doesn't make things any better. You could say the same thing for Portal Key I suppose, but at least Portal key doesn't get countered by detection and is instant.

:Nullstone: is situationally nice for the regen and survivability via single target spell negation, but it's a pretty expensive and selfish pickup whereas Engineer should usually either not be taking any damage at all or disintegrating in a team fight fast because he got focused. Grab it if you notice that Parasite/Pebbles/Fayde constantly jumping you all the time or something if you can manage it. But then again this is only if you just have tons of cash saved up, don't afk farm for 20 minutes just so you can rush this, that's obviously bad unless you're carrying in horribles 1300 land or something :p

:RingOfSorcery: :Energizer: :NomesWisdom: :BarrierIdol: are always nice for your team as well.

and :TabletOfCommand: :Stormspirit: are givens on him imo, they both just work so well on him, I always consider rushing either tablet or Stormspirit as his first "big" pickup just because he needs the mana pool and the utility on either of those just synergizes so well with him. especially Tablet, it's a monster on him if you can use it well, it gives him SOOO much more options and gives him a better mana pool as well.

Ill keep that steamboots/bottle trick in mind. And I guess Ill give ghost marchers a shot on him after all then.
I basically rush Tablet on him every single game, and it feels like a PK on top of it would be overkill.
I'm not really a fan of shroud. Certainly good on some heroes, but I just dont think Engi is one of them.
I will certainly give Nullfire and Puzzlebox a shot though!


Anyway, just in general, would you guys rather see a Wingbow or a Sheepstick on Engineer Lategame?

[Zuran]

I saw a good engi the other day. :TabletOfCommand::EnhancedMarchers::NomesWisdom: for escaping,, kiting to mines worked good. I'd say for luxury why not pick :KuldrasSheepstick:. I haven't checked agi gains or anything but the attack animation just blows atleast in early game so I don't like the idea of autoattack based semicarry engi.

[Phase1Skeith]

Dear god, don't play him as a carry-type hero.

Engineers build is quite versatile however be sure to get his mana and initiation capabilities up.

Your first items should be :RingOfTheTeacher: and :RingOfSorcery: to secure your mana a good portion.

For boots definetly choose :EnhancedMarchers: or if you're epicly overfarmed :PostHaste: since Engi needs to be able to run into melee range for mine-into-face action however is a serious slowpoke in fights with any other boots.

The following item is up to you, you should go for :TabletOfCommand: to get basic stats and the extra mobility which Engi lacks himself.
:Portalkey: for strong initiation, and surprise ganks.
Or :Stormspirit: for more mana, easy to time Kegs and mobility/survivability.

You can make :RingOfTheTeacher: into :NomesWisdom: if nobody else gets it.

Luxuries are depending on what you and your team needs most.
If you die too much just go for more armor/magic armor items.

If you're good enough with your survivability go for :Hellflower:, :FrostfieldPlate:(also includes a lot of armor) or :KuldrasSheepstick:.

[TitsOrGTFO]

just remember 1 thing

ulti then stormspirit yourself is a very usefull combo with enemies around. if you blink in or walk in with shroud

[kingcools]

WARDS WARDS WARDS WARDS WARDS WARDS

oh and maybe

chalice -> striders -> tablet -> pk

[man_guy]

:LoggersHatchet::ManaPotion::ManaPotion::ManaPotio n::RunesOfTheBlight::HealthPotion:
Rush to enemy jungle and place mines within spawn radius, but in a way that the tree's radius, when respawned, will block whoever walks by to trigger the mine. You are able to block four camps if you are quick about it.

[PrestonLee]

I basically rush Tablet on him every single game, and it feels like a PK on top of it would be overkill.
I'm not really a fan of shroud. Certainly good on some heroes, but I just dont think Engi is one of them.getting both is a great idea because it just gives you more options. You can pkey in, ultimate, and immediately tablet out, which keeps you relatively safe, or vice versa, or even just save your tablet for a better situation to use it. Same thing with shroud, it just gives you more options for initiation and running out of tight situations. and again, with those phase boots gives you some crazy mobility. but it's really up to you and your play style preference, engi is one of those heroes that is very versatile and can be played in many different styles, my personal style is just high mobility (and using A LOT of activatable items on him :p) again to give him a lot more options and make him be able to deal with any situation thrown at him and his team.


Anyway, just in general, would you guys rather see a Wingbow or a Sheepstick on Engineer Lategame?it just depends how much you need engi to be carrying in that particular game. it's very situational IMO, get sheep stick if you feel your mana regen isn't enough or your team is having trouble with locking down a certain hero in the other team. One thing I'd say though is I'd take frostburn/geos most of the time over wingbow if I didn't have that yet, movement speed is always valuable, and that disjoint on geos or slow on frost urn is going to be more useful than dodge on wingbow in most cases. Sure if you already have frost/geos I'll take the wingbow over sheep though because you're already super farmed and can carry decently with it :p

[Icaruk]

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroesguide_view.php?gid=41202

[wulfgar863]

If you're not maxing mines first you are doing it wrong.

[kingcools]

If you're not maxing mines first you are doing it wrong.

Do not listen to this guy. Maxing mines (first) is the worst way to play engi.

[Underwejs]

I know that you're requesting a build for carry-engi(or semi), but I really want to make a point!
First of all, maxing mines first is next to NEVER a good option, it is simply too mana intensive, requires you to leave lane and lose xp/potential gold if you are last hitting (>.<).
I have been playing with 3. different skillbuilds lately, but this one I had the most succes with:
Lane control, push ability and semi support engi:
1. Keg
2. Turret
3. Turret
4. Keg
5. Turret
6. Ult

With this build I would normally go offensive lane with another / slow / stun that can also push decently. I would get 4 x Minor Totems, 1 x Guardian ring( into RoT asap), and 6 x Runes.
As soon as you have turret lv2-3 and a RoT you can potentially start pushing towers, turret can push well and with RoT you are looking at some tower dmg early on.
It is also very hard to kill a lane that has a engi with high lvl turret because of the knockback/slow it does, while is still deals decent dmg when coupled with auto hits from 2 ranged.
With this build I normally get RoT -> Power supply -> Steams -> Tablet -> Energizer -> PK/Stormspirit/frostfield(good farm)/shroud(rarely).
For laning partners I would go offensive lane with another ranged, where you can split farm or atleast be allowed to get some lasts.
Reason for this amount of pseudo support items is that with a stun, a slow/knockback and an ultimate that limits your enemies mobility he can control teamfights, tablet and energizer gives yet more control and makes you able to net kills for the team/save enemies when coupling your spells with items.. Some might say it's overdoing his niché but from my experince he can become a deciesive factor in team fights by slowing enemies -> posistioning them in such a way that your teams carries can chew on them.
Apologies for the wall of text + typos.

TL:DR with turret/keg he becomes a force to be reckoned with on the lane and in teamfights/ganks.. He is also able to solo push lanes fairly well - providing a decent cashflow.

[DeepWaters]

well yeah, but usually you're getting the Nullstone because of the regen. The extra agi and mana pool also help. Engi's main problem is keeping that mana pool up and obviously Nullstone helps with this, and also gives you that extra spell negation for survivability.

Shrunken is obviously situationally good, but that's a lot of farm you're blowing assuming you're playing a more ganky/supportive role, and it's not doing anything for your mana pool. Great after you've gotten all your other stuff already though and you're using Pkey for initiations.

Think Magmus/Behemoth, sure Shrunken's great for surviving initiations later but after he's gotten his other stuff already.

considering his utli is a silence - he doesnt need magic defense right?

[TheHammer3]

After reading this, I now remember why I hate the strategy forum. Portal key.

[wulfgar863]

Do not listen to this guy. Maxing mines (first) is the worst way to play engi.

Considering that keg is a skill shot that can be easily avoided, it is safer bet to max mines over keg or turret. Also calculate in that each rank of Keg only grants an additional 50 damage and .25 sec stun. The point of keg is to be a follow up. Very rarely will you open with keg as its reward is greater when landed correctly.(pushing them in a direction derp)


Maxing turret is bad also early, enemies just walk out of the turret. It's that simple. And the way it works now, it just pushes them out of the way of it by itself.

Maxing mines allows rune control, counter gank control, and hero killing. The only reason to play engineer is his mines and energy field, his other abilities are just nice to have. Also ranks in mines allow you to store more, which is great for when you do return to base, you come back to lane with 2-3 mines ready to be planted.

Rule of thumb 5 mines = a kill always

[kingcools]

Considering that keg is a skill shot that can be easily avoided, it is safer bet to max mines over keg or turret. Also calculate in that each rank of Keg only grants an additional 50 damage and .25 sec stun. The point of keg is to be a follow up. Very rarely will you open with keg as its reward is greater when landed correctly.(pushing them in a direction derp)


Maxing turret is bad also early, enemies just walk out of the turret. It's that simple. And the way it works now, it just pushes them out of the way of it by itself.

Maxing mines allows rune control, counter gank control, and hero killing. The only reason to play engineer is his mines and energy field, his other abilities are just nice to have. Also ranks in mines allow you to store more, which is great for when you do return to base, you come back to lane with 2-3 mines ready to be planted.

Rule of thumb 5 mines = a kill always


turret is very strong early on. You obviously use it wrong.

fact is: i see engi leave for placing mines, i buy counter ward
awww there it goes the work of 5 mins.

[PrestonLee]

I personally do 1/4/4/1, maxing Turret over mines and mines over Keg. Reason being Turret is really strong early on, mines are great for map control/just laying all over the map and also as a nuke that is guaranteed to hit after nailing a well placed Turret. Leveling mines early allows the cooldowns on them to be more bearable, and keeping Keg cheap in mana cost is very nice because it's your stun and you can use it for the utility rather than damage, still fulfills its purpose at level 1.

With that said even though I level mines, I'm not one of those Engi's that spend 2 minutes sitting in 1 spot laying mines likea derp, I actually lane (usually go safe lane and do pulling duties/set up a 5 mine field to protect your pull so if they try to stop you they get a surprise :p). Engi's skillset makes defending your pull really easy so I tend to feel he should lane jungle pulling and abuse his strengths that way.

tl;dr - Keg is great at level 1 as a very cheap mana stun/push, I'd rather put points into mines which make the cooldowns on mines bearable early on and also serve as a good burst nuke in combination with your turret or ulti. it's also your farming tool with its low cooldown, so why wouldn't you level it? stop being close-minded :p

leveling mines does not mean spam them all in one place and wait for a stupid kill (or get counterwarded/swiftblade spinned/illusion suicide etc. and fail); use your mines better :p

[Nieve]

Well, I usually max out mines/keg first. Even if I dont max out mines first, I get them at level 1 anyway, just to ward around or block spawns with it. I basically ALWAYS take the short lane. I use the mines as wards and defensive tools in case they want to gank me, not to derp around on them forever. Walking a bit to the side, placing a mine and walking back to your lane doesnt hurt your lane presence in the least.
Most of the time, starting at 3, I just throw a keg in a good situation, pushing the enemy to me, run up to him while he is stunned and place a mine on his face. It just does so much damage, if my lane partner is half-decent, it usually ends up in a kill.

Anyway, my original question was not about early or mid game, but late game. Ill try it again:

I now have my boots, my Tablet, my Spellshards, Im warding, and I still have 5000 gold to burn since Im farming like a boss.

My teams carry is not doing so well, I have twice his GPM.
The enemy team is outfarming everyone on my team except me.
What items should I buy now to safe the game?

Also, I wouldnt ask this question if that situation didnt happen too often already.

[st0n3y]

personally i max mines first cos if you want lane control/slow/disables there are way better heroes to pick... and if you're one of those that just mines the shops you're doing it wrong...

engi's a support hero so if you have gold you should be buying out wards and initiation items (pk and tablet, shroud?). pk in, tablet to push enemy to your ulti (not just for escape/initiation). if you're still pimpin gt disablers (cyclone, kudras). if you're outfarming your carry you probably need to babysit more...

i carry sometimes but i thnk his attack animation looks pretty slow... get icebrand and work slowly to a :FrostwolfsSkull: or maybe :FrostfieldPlate: which gives you decent survivability while the slow helps you/your carry chase down enemies (babysit!)