Hero Development WIP: Druid #3

[Nome]

http://www.nomeswisdom.com

The twilight of Artemis!
She dies.

[mcslave198]

first?

Anyways, it's a shame that you had to pull the plug. Good read.

[LOQ]

first?

posting for mizzet

[Skyve]

Pretty sure there's original ways of making her viable, without using stuns or escapes :(

[Cichy133]

Nice.

[Nome]

Pretty sure there's original ways of making her viable, without using stuns or escapes :(
There are, and I explored several ways, but they all seemed to put her at a level of complexity I wasn't satisfied with.

[LonelyQueen]

Late?

[Skyve]

There are, and I explored several ways, but they all seemed to put her at a level of complexity I wasn't satisfied with.

I kinda liked the idea of the magic missiles she fires when using skills. I hope that makes it onto another hero at least.

I guess it's good though that we are getting a couple not as complex heroes in the closer future, since Silhouette, Master of Arms, Monkey King and Gemini all are pretty "complex" heroes (interestingly enough they also are all agility).


Late?

Pretty sure you can see this as a small "preview" on Sylph :D

[_Gjallar]

sadface :(

[skeloperch]

Awww. I kinda disagree with the public, though. It's not stuns/escape mechanisms that are unfun (I mean, Valky, DR, and Bubbles all have stuns, range, and escape mechanisms), it's flash farming. I love some of your designs, but Midas and MK are kinda poopy because of how easily they can comeback from getting owned. It's the reason flash farming is a problem. If you keep a Flint down, he stays down. If you keep a Midas down, he comes back with 300 GPM.

Also, it's alright to give heroes escape mechanisms and cc, but when you give them range, it becomes rather irritating. I don't think anyone complains about Dampeer having mobility and a pseudo stun, and that's because you guys did it in a fairly unique way. My 2 cents.

[argnoferich]

Good thing she died!!! Seriously, now to REAL heroes!

[Reimu]

I can't help but look at this in two ways, and I really don't mean any direct offense to one of these but it's just the timing is too perfect for it.

First I'm sad to see a hero project being shut down, by your own choice, although I'm glad you felt you could salvage some of it onto a different project, which by the sounds of it might be seen soon (well I guess 3½weeks from now)?

Second... the timing for the reasons you give in comparison to the recent rise in complaints regarding hero design just feel like they are too closely related that you are taking advantage of the situation and trying to get some people to cease their whining (for now) about versatile/'complex' heroes that can do everything. Also partly you make it sound like it's our (as in the community) fault you had to shut it down because there's been an increasing outcry that majority of heroes lately have been too effective multiple aspects compared to the already available hero pool.

But maybe I'm just reading too much into it. Looking forward to this Sylph hero!

[Nome]

I can't help but look at this in two ways, and I really don't mean any direct offense to one of these but it's just the timing is too perfect for it.

First I'm sad to see a hero project being shut down, by your own choice, although I'm glad you felt you could salvage some of it onto a different project, which by the sounds of it might be seen soon (well I guess 3½weeks from now)?

Second... the timing for the reasons you give in comparison to the recent rise in complaints regarding hero design just feel like they are too closely related that you are taking advantage of the situation and trying to get some people to cease their whining (for now) about versatile/'complex' heroes that can do everything. Also partly you make it sound like it's our (as in the community) fault you had to shut it down because there's been an increasing outcry that majority of heroes lately have been too effective multiple aspects compared to the already available hero pool.

But maybe I'm just reading too much into it. Looking forward to this Sylph hero!

It's not a matter of fault, it's a matter of wanting to appease and listen to the community. Don't assume that because we listen, we're placing blame!

[February`]

Good read. I like that you mentioned you will avoid escape mechanisms and stuns for this hero, it means that you read the feedback from players of all levels. It is a shame we will not see this hero in HoN.

PS good luck with your new job, the community will miss you.

[IsmaelVera]

Looking forward to Sylph.
:balp:

[FINAL_MIX]

Nome, Will there ever be a night and day hero? I remember u originally made elephant to b...

[Nome]

Nome, Will there ever be a night and day hero? I remember u originally made elephant to b...
Cthuluphant was DivA's, and it never had a night/day mechanic. In fact, that hero went from concept to completion without any ability changes... might be the only hero we've done so smoothly.

Idejder has been musing over a night/day hero for a while now. You should bother him to complete it!

[MrSnowball]

"...she will also be the final hero I design for HoN."

Noooo, Nome! :(
I'll miss your heroes.

[iJusti]

Best of luck Nome you're awesome.

[King_Tiger]

that is really sad that they are laeving gb and farewell

[SmashNess]

I's sorry Nome but many of ur arguments are just a pile of a logic only existing in ur own head.
I'd build an enormous text here to explain how ur point of view that "have everything heroes doenst mean a bad thing" is wrong, but this would be really exhausting.

I'll point out just the "too many heroes with escapes/stuns is a faulty argument". I remember back in DotA where there was a just a few heroes with "blink-like" abilities, and the bans were all around those heroes. It's pretty obvious why, positioning is like THE thing on the Action RPS scenario, wich explains why portal key is so popular and needed many nerfs such as the combat dmg cooldown. You can't build all heroes around it cuz then all others becomes crap. Myrmydon makes others good gankers/supports/lane controllers become silly at the same time because he can do all of those roles VERY WELL. Why do even question urself about picking it instead of Glacius for example? I'd only pick glacius if i get bored to play myrm, not for any other reason.

Talking about the stuns, it's kinda the same for slows too. Just take a look at Master of Arms, the best example of a "WTF IS THIS HERO" u guys made. It really is not OP, but what is the god damn fun on building a nice team if in general all the heroes look alike in functions? Tempest is an unique type of hero cuz he offers unique situations on the battlefield and those are useful. What is unique about Master of Arms? This is just the first problem, because if you take a look at Voodoo Jester for example it's an awesome hero, but comparing a caster like him to Master of Arms for example is really fun, because to form a team, the agi "have everything" guy is far better than the int "agressive support" guy simply because he has far more disable forms and escape mechanisms that counts far more on serious games. VJ isn't a bad hero, but his unique -but risky- playstyle is far compensanted by the vast functions newer heroes have wich can be more useful and far more solid in teambattles.

I hope you're not leaving S2 because people can't understand your logic, that would be idiotic and shows you really don't deserve to be designing heroes. You should be able to look at other's POV since ur science on hero design is very well thought, but not necesseraly correct.

[Oh_My_Gah]

In a non mean kind of way im glad you're finished designing heroes. Honestly nothing is more annoying than monkey king being impossible to target while he uses a wealth of skills and you're stuck in a confused state not knowing what to do because HE'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TARGET.

Also Heroes with escape mechanisms are generally toxic to game play. Giving almost every hero a " get out of jail free card " only pushes back the viability of heroes without one. I think eventually S2 will need to tone down heroes like magebane whose blink is probably one of the most overpowered escapes in the game. Lowers the risk of farming BY A LOT which further pushes back the viability of other melee heroes.

While monkey king is melee, you hardly ever find yourself using your auto attack more than your skills.

[DrScout]

"Mandala: This alchemical circle is imbued with harmful seals that punish the aggressive. Enemies standing on the mandala will receive an attack and movement speed slow."

...

"Maṇḍala (मण्डल) is a Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) word that means "circle". In the Buddhist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) and Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism) religious traditions their sacred art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_art) often takes a mandala form. The basic form of most Hindu and Buddhist mandalas is a square with four gates containing a circle with a center point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindu). Each gate is in the shape of a T."

A Mandala has nothing to do with Alchemy.

According to Paracelsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus), the Three Primes or Tria Prima are[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol#cite_note-Eric_John_Holmyard_1990._p.153-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol#cite_note-1)


Salt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_%28chemistry%29) (base matter) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/46/Line_within_circle.svg/20px-Line_within_circle.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Line_within_circle.svg)
Mercury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28element%29) (fluid connection between the High and the Low) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Mercury_symbol.svg/30px-Mercury_symbol.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercury_symbol.svg)
Sulfur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur) (omnipresent spirit of life) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Sulphur.svg/20px-Sulphur.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sulphur.svg)

... They have their own signs.


And if you would make a circle and read it counterclockwise with the actual fire, water, ..., ingredients, it at least would make sense.




But that's just pathetic bullshit you came up whilst dating an Buddhist girl and watching Fullmetal Alchemist.

[DutchFlame]

I think both pudding and nome had to leave like from 1 hero per week it went back to like 2 per month max? So yeah they have too many free space and nothing else to do i guess.. that just seems like it. I mean theres no proper words on what they're going to do or whatever.. well bye bye

[Kudas]

Spoilers.

[Testingrani]

Hey Nome, do you have a list of all your implemented HoN heroes?

[Adastraa]

A great read. (: Thanks.

[AsianHero]

ur a fkin awesome c u nt s2 pay nome and pudding more plz, is hard to find talented people like these guys

[Driziationz]

Cthuluphant was DivA's, and it never had a night/day mechanic. In fact, that hero went from concept to completion without any ability changes... might be the only hero we've done so smoothly.

Idejder has been musing over a night/day hero for a while now. You should bother him to complete it!

Cthuluphant was DivA's? i've just known that.
and btw nome why r u leaving. i haven't seen lord salforis' spotlight yet so i dont know the matter at hand. just curious that's all. :)

[HawkeyeBR]

Nome, if you start a company with Ms pudding to develop a game like Hon, I'll play for sure.

[EvilStealer]

I was waiting for this hero so much and so long, and now you tell us, that he wont be released... I hate you.

[whistle]

Wow. I wish I was better at writing speeches, because I'd really like to recall all of the good times. Old beta OT mostly I guess...

What i'd like to say most is that I still love playing Meepo, and Monkey King is the only hero keeping me playing HoN. :monk:

You've done this gaming genre one of the biggest services, and I want you to make sure to keep up the outstanding innovations.

[Galneryus]

Nome, me and a couple of friends will bring you the new Druid on the next few weeks. Just wait and you'll see our tribute to you :)

[GrimmShado]

A shame you must leave s2 nome, you are a good, solid designer and your influence in the long term would have made hon into a better game. Good luck in your endeavours and please, do as much as you can before you leave.

[Nome]

I's sorry Nome but many of ur arguments are just a pile of a logic only existing in ur own head.
I'd build an enormous text here to explain how ur point of view that "have everything heroes doenst mean a bad thing" is wrong, but this would be really exhausting.

I'll point out just the "too many heroes with escapes/stuns is a faulty argument". I remember back in DotA where there was a just a few heroes with "blink-like" abilities, and the bans were all around those heroes. It's pretty obvious why, positioning is like THE thing on the Action RPS scenario, wich explains why portal key is so popular and needed many nerfs such as the combat dmg cooldown. You can't build all heroes around it cuz then all others becomes crap. Myrmydon makes others good gankers/supports/lane controllers become silly at the same time because he can do all of those roles VERY WELL. Why do even question urself about picking it instead of Glacius for example? I'd only pick glacius if i get bored to play myrm, not for any other reason.

Talking about the stuns, it's kinda the same for slows too. Just take a look at Master of Arms, the best example of a "WTF IS THIS HERO" u guys made. It really is not OP, but what is the god damn fun on building a nice team if in general all the heroes look alike in functions? Tempest is an unique type of hero cuz he offers unique situations on the battlefield and those are useful. What is unique about Master of Arms? This is just the first problem, because if you take a look at Voodoo Jester for example it's an awesome hero, but comparing a caster like him to Master of Arms for example is really fun, because to form a team, the agi "have everything" guy is far better than the int "agressive support" guy simply because he has far more disable forms and escape mechanisms that counts far more on serious games. VJ isn't a bad hero, but his unique -but risky- playstyle is far compensanted by the vast functions newer heroes have wich can be more useful and far more solid in teambattles.

I hope you're not leaving S2 because people can't understand your logic, that would be idiotic and shows you really don't deserve to be designing heroes. You should be able to look at other's POV since ur science on hero design is very well thought, but not necesseraly correct.

You're missing the point. If there were only two heroes with blinks/stuns in the game, then yes, those two heroes would be dominant. That's not the case, however. Stuns (and escapes) are widely available. It's to the point where having more of them doesn't make the previous ones any worse for the aforementioned reasons.



"Mandala: This alchemical circle is imbued with harmful seals that punish the aggressive. Enemies standing on the mandala will receive an attack and movement speed slow."

...

"Maṇḍala (मण्डल) is a Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) word that means "circle". In the Buddhist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) and Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism) religious traditions their sacred art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_art) often takes a mandala form. The basic form of most Hindu and Buddhist mandalas is a square with four gates containing a circle with a center point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindu). Each gate is in the shape of a T."

A Mandala has nothing to do with Alchemy.

According to Paracelsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus), the Three Primes or Tria Prima are[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol#cite_note-Eric_John_Holmyard_1990._p.153-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol#cite_note-1)


Salt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_%28chemistry%29) (base matter) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/46/Line_within_circle.svg/20px-Line_within_circle.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Line_within_circle.svg)
Mercury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28element%29) (fluid connection between the High and the Low) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Mercury_symbol.svg/30px-Mercury_symbol.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercury_symbol.svg)
Sulfur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur) (omnipresent spirit of life) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Sulphur.svg/20px-Sulphur.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sulphur.svg)

... They have their own signs.


And if you would make a circle and read it counterclockwise with the actual fire, water, ..., ingredients, it at least would make sense.




But that's just pathetic bullshit you came up whilst dating an Buddhist girl and watching Fullmetal Alchemist.
Yeah, I did name that spell based on FMA. Also, neither MsPudding nor I are Buddhist.

[SmashNess]

You're just not trying to see my point. I'm not talking under ur logic because it fails on my concept.
Just because there's a wide set of stuns on the scenario does not mean blinks are less effective. On praxis this isn't as simple as a regular equation, it's not like Stun = 1 and Blink = -2 so if we have 4 stuns on the pool then 2 heroes with blink are not overpwoered anymore.

This necromancer hero is a proof that good heroes can be made without the need of having every type of ability on the same character. He doesn't have stuns or heavy disables, but if well played and the right items he is just as good as any other hero. And that's it, that's what we need.

[Nome]

You're just not trying to see my point. I'm not talking under ur logic because it fails on my concept.
Just because there's a wide set of stuns on the scenario does not mean blinks are less effective. On praxis this isn't as simple as a regular equation, it's not like Stun = 1 and Blink = -2 so if we have 4 stuns on the pool then 2 heroes with blink are not overpwoered anymore.

This necromancer hero is a proof that good heroes can be made without the need of having every type of ability on the same character. He doesn't have stuns or heavy disables, but if well played and the right items he is just as good as any other hero. And that's it, that's what we need.
So your point is basically the point of my blog post? :P

[Adastraa]

You're just not trying to see my point. I'm not talking under ur logic because it fails on my concept.
Just because there's a wide set of stuns on the scenario does not mean blinks are less effective. On praxis this isn't as simple as a regular equation, it's not like Stun = 1 and Blink = -2 so if we have 4 stuns on the pool then 2 heroes with blink are not overpwoered anymore.

This necromancer hero is a proof that good heroes can be made without the need of having every type of ability on the same character. He doesn't have stuns or heavy disables, but if well played and the right items he is just as good as any other hero. And that's it, that's what we need.

Your posts make no sense.

[Darkblade010]

I realize that input on this after the hero has already been scrapped doesn't help much but I wonder if you had explored a design model for the hero that instead of balancing between 2 forms with a set of 4 powers for each (a lot of powers.) Instead went to 3 forms each with 1 power and an ultimate which acts as a fusion of them all or perhaps augments the existing 3 powers.


First break Q W and E powers into a form for Int, Agi, and Str and then while in the appropriate form substitute the trasnformation ability for an active power. IE if already in Int form then the button for the int transformation becomes a moderate damage AoE attack, the Agi becomes a MS/AS buff, and the Str becomes an AoE slow, you've now simplified the design tremendously while still retaining the concept of a multiform hero.

You could retain the powers which are triggered by the transformation such as Int form having an AoE heal around itself or Str form creating a damage shield you've now also preserved the heroes ability to be played in multiple styles depending on which forms are leveled at what priorities.

Was this form of power segregation of 1 per form(or potentially 2 if one includes the power which is triggered by the transformation itself) ever explored in the design?

[Xemeo]

Hey Nome, I was thinking of trying my hand at hero design. What would you suggest to be the best way to go about designing, proposing, and coding/executing a hero concept? I have a very specific design concept I want to capture and was hoping you could provide some advise.

[Pazuzu]

Nome I'll miss you, your heroes, and items you could have made. Of all the designers You were my favorite.

[FINAL_MIX]

Hey Nome, I was thinking of trying my hand at hero design. What would you suggest to be the best way to go about designing, proposing, and coding/executing a hero concept? I have a very specific design concept I want to capture and was hoping you could provide some advise.

... Hero Draft?

When does it hero Slylph come out QQ. Necro is cool but i dont like humanoid heroes.

[Kokuyo]

Lame.

[SmashNess]

So your point is basically the point of my blog post? :P

hmm no

you defend that multitask heroes are not bad while for me they are

you defend many blinkers on the pool aren't good if there are many stuns on the pool, but for me this is absolutely wrong, specially if many of those blinkers are stunners as well (dota ports Hag, Magebane, Bubbs, Valkyrie, Chronos and Nighthound doesn't have stuns except for some real superficial/hard do land ones, while cthulaphant, myrmidon, gemini, midas all have.

[Uthere]

Thx Nome ! :scou::scou::scou:

[Nome]

hmm no

you defend that multitask heroes are not bad while for me they are

you defend many blinkers on the pool aren't good if there are many stuns on the pool, but for me this is absolutely wrong, specially if many of those blinkers are stunners as well (dota ports Hag, Magebane, Bubbs, Valkyrie, Chronos and Nighthound doesn't have stuns except for some real superficial/hard do land ones, while cthulaphant, myrmidon, gemini, midas all have.
The first point I did make, correct.
I did not make the second point in any form.

[Drasha]

Lol at the list of dota prots "with out stuns" nighthound and hag are the only ones with out one and bubbles, valk, and chronos all have much longer stuns then any one you listed.

[ChillyWater]

Also, neither MsPudding nor I are Buddhist.
I saw that... You sly dog...

[Slut]

I don't really see the point of this thread since Druid was scrapped

[FINAL_MIX]

The point is one or two of Druids skill is going to slyph. Slyph is last Nome hero

[HowHigh2]

she will also be the final hero I design for HoN. I hope you guys will enjoy her!

You and pudding leaving us...... you're hero better be freaking awsome. if you could bring a new hybrid's hero that would let new kind of hero to be design it would be asome. Im tired of new tank carry having 2-3 ability in 1 damn spell. also bored of hard carry = procs & escape mechanism + Scaling ability trough item's.



Ill miss you Nome : i very like d what you were trying to do. i Just you ull be able to pass that to a HON designer. You had awsome idea don't give up your dreams.


we fan will still be behind you W/E you go ^^.

[Anaklu]

We english speakers should probably just come to terms now with the fact that no one is ever going to spell sylph right.