Savage Mace vs Charged Hammer vs Shieldbreaker vs Riftshards - Mathcraft

[MacroHard]

Updated as of v3.1.1

Introduction:


The calculations and resulting charts factor in attack speed, damage, physical armor, and magic armor. All graphs and comparisons are also normalized by gold cost. It does not include incidentals such as synergy with lifesteal, splash, ally attacks and spells, occupation of attack modifier, other proc items, or ease of buildup.


The Acronyms and Variables:


TC = additional damage per second from Thunderclaw
CH = additional damage per second from Charged Hammer
RS = additional damage per second from Riftshards
SB = additional damage per second from Shieldbreaker
SM = additional damage per second from Savage Mace
HB = additional damage per second from Harkon's Blade

TCv = value of TC = TC/2900
CHv = value of CH = CH/5400
RSv = value of RS = RS/5400
SBv = value of SB = SB/4600
SMv = value of SM = SM/5400
HBv = value of HB = HB/4775

D = Damage BEFORE purchasing any of the items or components
Ap = Physical Armor of the target you are attacking
Am = Magic Armor of the target you are attacking
S = Attack speed bonus BEFORE purchasing any of the items or components
(includes everything... so if you have 80 agility and +30 attack speed worth of items, S = 110)

P = Damage Factor from Physical Armor = 1/(1+.06Ap)
M = Damage Factor from Magic Armor = 1/(1+.06Am)
Q = Damage Factor from Physical Armor after Shieldbreaker debuff = 1/(1+.06(Ap-6)), Ap > 6


The Formulas:


General Formula = [(D*P + itemdamage*P + magicproc*M + physicalproc*P)*(100+S+attackspeed)-D*P*(100+S)]/itemcost

TCv = (2760P+3450M+24PS+30MS+15PD)/2900
CHv = (5100P+6800M+30PS+40MS+70PD)/5400
RSv = (10240P+28PD+102.4PS+0.28PDS)/5400
SBv = (100QD+7000Q+QSD+70QS-100PD-PDS)/4600
SMv = (12300P+123PS)/5400
HBv = (110MD+MDS+2970M+27MS-100PD-PDS)/4775 (for Agi/Str heroes)
HBv = (110MD+MDS+6820M+62MS-100PD-PDS)/4775 (for Int heroes)

The Method:


For any two items*, equate the value equations and solve for S in terms of D, Ap, and Am.
*For Harkon's solve for Ap in terms of D, S, and Am
The result is the line where both items have equivalent DPS per gold.
Most graphs have multiple lines with each line representing fixed values for the remaining variables.


The Results:


Thunderclaw vs Charged Hammer
http://i.imgur.com/HdNYJ.png
Charged Hammer is obviously more DPS. What this shows is that Charged Hammer is also more efficient than Thunderclaw.
Charged Hammer vs Shieldbreaker
5.5 magic armor-
http://i.imgur.com/6Xytq.png
10.5 magic armor-
http://i.imgur.com/GCxI2.png
15.5 magic armor-
http://i.imgur.com/j5uKw.png
Generally favors Charged Hammer. Very high attack speed combined with low enemy physical armor and high magic armor favors Shieldbreaker.

Charged Hammer vs Riftshards
http://i.imgur.com/aB2wTTa.png
Generally favors Charged Hammer. High attack speed combined with low enemy physical armor and high magic armor favors Riftshards.

Charged Hammer vs Savage Mace
http://i.imgur.com/oSD7ZG6.png
Generally favors Charged Hammer. Low damage and high attack speed, combined with low enemy physical armor, favors Savage Mace.

Shieldbreaker vs Savage Mace
http://i.imgur.com/m2QrZSR.png
Generally favors Shieldbreaker. Low damage and high enemy physical armor favors Savage Mace.

Riftshards vs Savage Mace
No graph required!
Since neither of these items factor in attack speed nor armor...

Savage Mace adds 123 damage
Riftshards adds 102.4 + .28D damage

Riftshards out-damages Savage Mace when D > 73.6

Riftshards will always exceed Savage Mace for pure DPS.

Riftshards vs Shieldbreaker
http://i.imgur.com/27a41Tj.png
Generally favors Shieldbreaker. Enemy armor higher than ~14 favors Riftshards.

Harkon's Blade vs Charged Hammer
http://i.imgur.com/rJypF.png
For Agi/Stri Heroes, generally favors Harkon's Blade when Physical Armor is more than 18 higher than Magic Armor (uncommon).
For Int Heroes, generally favors Harkon's Blade when Physical Armor is more than 7 higher than Magic Armor (common).

Harkon's Blade vs Savage Mace
http://i.imgur.com/Di670NJ.png
For Agi/Stri Heroes, generally favors Harkon's Blade when Physical Armor is more than 12 higher than Magic Armor.
For Int Heroes, generally favors Harkon's Blade when Physical Armor is more than 6 higher than Magic Armor.


Explanation of 2-Dimensional Graphing Involving Three or More Variables:



Since Macrohard didn't explain it maybe I'll take a stab for him. Maths and Stats graph time!

Basically graphs only plot the relationship between 2 variables. For example, how (1) Total Damage scales with (2) Armor reduction. After all, the graph only has 2 axes, and can therefore only show 2 things.

In some situations, like this, Macro is trying to show the relationship of (1) Total Damage against... several things. Basically (2) Current Hero Damage before buying item, (3) Current Hero Atk Speed before buying item, (4) Enemy Physical Armor and (5) Enemy Magic Armor.

If we really wanted to plot this, we would need a 5 dimensional graph, which would make your head explode. We need to get rid of 3 dimensions to bring it back to something we can represent on a 2 dimensional chart.

The first two dimensions (physical armor and magic armor) are easy. All he did was plot the same thing multiple times - so there are many lines of different colors to show the various graphs. The problem with this is that it's not exact - you can only pick and choose several values, rather than have a graph that shows you clearly what the relationship between the dimensions are and where the cross-over points are.

The way Macrohard got rid of one more dimension is a clever bit of work that is pretty standard in statistics - instead of plotting the relationship between two factors that are the axes on the graph, Macro instead plotted the line where the damage contribution from both items being compared is exactly the same. Each line therefore shows all the combinations of Attack Speed and Damage for which both items being compared are exactly the same - and from this contour, we know any points lying above the line favour one item, while points lying below the line favour the other item.

And that's how to compress a 5 dimensional graph down to a 2 dimensional graph =)


Incidentals:


+ Positive Side Effects
Charged Hammer has an activatable that punishes attackers
Charged Hammer also hits nearby enemies with lightning
Charged Hammer has a guaranteed proc on first attack between fights
Riftshards can lifesteal from critical strikes
Riftshards critical strikes apply to splash attacks
Shieldbreaker lowers enemy armor such that allied attacks and physical spells also benefit
Shieldbreaker and Riftshards have easier build up
Savage Mace removes all chances to miss
Savage Mace interrupts enemy attacks and stops channeling abilities
Harkon's Blade lowers enemy magic armor such that allied spells also benefit

- Negative Side Effects
Charged Hammer loses effectiveness against Magic Immunity
Shieldbreaker occupies an attack modifier which may be needed for slow or lifesteal
Harkon's Blade occupies an attack modifier which may be needed for slow or lifesteal
Harkon's Blade requires mana to use


Ignorant Generalization:


Notwithstanding reality, when it comes to pure DPS per gold cost for most Damage and Attack Speeds...
Harkon's Blade (int) > Charged Hammer > Riftshards > Harkon's Blade (agi/str) > Shieldbreaker > Savage Mace


My Recommendation:


Screw math. Do what feels right.

[LegoPirate]

some thoughts.

im pretty sure sheildbreaker is worse then riftshards after 23 armor( i thought it was more around 19armor, but i could be wrong), your graph says the other way around. typo or ? (also, if im correct either way, then deso is much weaker then rift based on your graphs.

also, the graphs should really show much higher damage values. you go up to ridiculous armor values like 40, but stop at a fairly paltry 250 dmg.

you should toss in wingbow and hellflower if you have time :D

[ElementUser]

We might need a new subforums for graphs lol

:)

[MacroHard]

some thoughts.

im pretty sure sheildbreaker is worse then riftshards after 23 armor( i thought it was more around 19armor, but i could be wrong), your graph says the other way around. typo or ? (also, if im correct either way, then deso is much weaker then rift based on your graphs.

also, the graphs should really show much higher damage values. you go up to ridiculous armor values like 40, but stop at a fairly paltry 250 dmg.

you should toss in wingbow and hellflower if you have time :D

You are half correct. I had a typo underneath the RS/SB graph that said higher armor favors Shieldbreaker. Thank you for catching this. The graph itself is correct; the higher the armor value the more area that favors Riftshards. Some people might find it peculiar that the graph of Riftshards vs Shieldbreaker changes with attack speed, seeing as neither item contains attack speed. The reason for this is that higher attack speed benefits from higher damage.

Since when was 40 armor ridiculous? Very high, yes, but no more uncommon than 3000 HP. As for the damage being paltry, consider that the damage listed on the graphs is BEFORE purchasing these items. Since most of these items are around 70 damage, that would bring you to ~320 damage after purchase. If you still think this is paltry I can re-scale the graphs to 300 damage or even higher.

I didn't add Wingbow or Hellflower because a significant portion of the gold cost goes to the other benefits (armor/evasion and mana/mana regen/silence). Since these graphs show pure dps divided by gold, these two items would be unfairly disadvantaged.

[LegoPirate]

showing that hellflower and wingbow are compareable (just in terms of dps, which they very much are) will go a long way in showing how really good they both are.

the upper end of the graph should end at 350 dmg imo.

the attack speed portion is redundant and obvious (more attack speed means that more damage will do more damage? derp?)

and the fact that desolator takes up an orb slot is insanely huge. means no fws/lifesteal

[Octavia]

I've never seen anyone get Riftshards when they have less than 250 damage so your graphs are fairly biased towards your idea that Charged Hammer is better. I still don't get how the graphs work anyway though, considering you've just plotted damage against attack speed (what this is trying to prove is beyond me).

For any two items, set the value equations and solve for S in terms of D, Ar, and Ap.This is also confusing since you haven't defined what Ar is.

[PRETENT10uS]

You didn't factor the AOE damage from Charged Hammer procs bouncing at all, correct?

[MacroHard]

I've never seen anyone get Riftshards when they have less than 250 damage so your graphs are fairly biased towards your idea that Charged Hammer is better. I still don't get how the graphs work anyway though, considering you've just plotted damage against attack speed (what this is trying to prove is beyond me).
This is also confusing since you haven't defined what Ar is.

Typo. Meant Am.

[MacroHard]

You didn't factor the AOE damage from Charged Hammer procs bouncing at all, correct?

Correct. Only the lightning proc on the primary target.

[CodexLevel6]

Agree, would be interesting to see Wingbow and Hellflower too.

Although clearly SM>Wingbow (pretty much SM > everything...) unless you have a very unusual combination of very high damage yet extremely low Attack Speed (both items are equally affected by armor).

[xdvesper]

I still don't get how the graphs work anyway though, considering you've just plotted damage against attack speed (what this is trying to prove is beyond me).

Since Macrohard didn't explain it maybe I'll take a stab for him. Maths and Stats graph time!

Basically graphs only plot the relationship between 2 variables. For example, how (1) Total Damage scales with (2) Armor reduction. After all, the graph only has 2 axes, and can therefore only show 2 things.

In some situations, like this, Macro is trying to show the relationship of (1) Total Damage against... several things. Basically (2) Current Hero Damage before buying item, (3) Current Hero Atk Speed before buying item, (4) Enemy Physical Armor and (5) Enemy Magic Armor.

If we really wanted to plot this, we would need a 5 dimensional graph, which would make your head explode. We need to get rid of 3 dimensions to bring it back to something we can represent on a 2 dimensional chart.

The first two dimensions (physical armor and magic armor) are easy. All he did was plot the same thing multiple times - so there are many lines of different colors to show the various graphs. The problem with this is that it's not exact - you can only pick and choose several values, rather than have a graph that shows you clearly what the relationship between the dimensions are and where the cross-over points are.

The way Macrohard got rid of one more dimension is a clever bit of work that is pretty standard in statistics - instead of plotting the relationship between two factors that are the axes on the graph, Macro instead plotted the line where the damage contribution from both items being compared is exactly the same. Each line therefore shows all the combinations of Attack Speed and Damage for which both items being compared are exactly the same - and from this contour, we know any points lying above the line favour one item, while points lying below the line favour the other item.

And that's how to compress a 5 dimensional graph down to a 2 dimensional graph =)

[CodexLevel6]

You could add Thunderclaw, e.g. :mast: usually won't upgrade it.

Also, another positive sideeffect of Riftshards is that they propagate to illusions.

Great work you got there btw. :)

[Octavia]

Since Macrohard didn't explain it maybe I'll take a stab for him. Maths and Stats graph time!

Basically graphs only plot the relationship between 2 variables. For example, how (1) Total Damage scales with (2) Armor reduction. After all, the graph only has 2 axes, and can therefore only show 2 things.

In some situations, like this, Macro is trying to show the relationship of (1) Total Damage against... several things. Basically (2) Current Hero Damage before buying item, (3) Current Hero Atk Speed before buying item, (4) Enemy Physical Armor and (5) Enemy Magic Armor.

If we really wanted to plot this, we would need a 5 dimensional graph, which would make your head explode. We need to get rid of 3 dimensions to bring it back to something we can represent on a 2 dimensional chart.

The first two dimensions (physical armor and magic armor) are easy. All he did was plot the same thing multiple times - so there are many lines of different colors to show the various graphs. The problem with this is that it's not exact - you can only pick and choose several values, rather than have a graph that shows you clearly what the relationship between the dimensions are and where the cross-over points are.

The way Macrohard got rid of one more dimension is a clever bit of work that is pretty standard in statistics - instead of plotting the relationship between two factors that are the axes on the graph, Macro instead plotted the line where the damage contribution from both items being compared is exactly the same. Each line therefore shows all the combinations of Attack Speed and Damage for which both items being compared are exactly the same - and from this contour, we know any points lying above the line favour one item, while points lying below the line favour the other item.

And that's how to compress a 5 dimensional graph down to a 2 dimensional graph =)
Thanks for that, makes a lot more sense now. I think MarcoHard should put this description in his original post. :jera:

Would be nice if he could protrude the graph out a bit though, since realistically some people will get beyond the areas shown way before buying a Riftshards or Charged Hammer.

Consider playing as The Dark Lady: before buying Riftshards you'd have at least Runed Axe, Ghost Marchers and Shrunken Head. Dark Lady has base damage 24 (average of 23-25), base agility 23 and agility gain of 2.9. At about level 20 when you'd be thinking about this next item purchase, she'd have (24+23+20*2.9+5*2) = 115 base damage. All bonuses including Dark Blades bring her attack damage up to (115*1.8+60+24+24) = 315 damage. With Charging Strike, she has (100+23+20*2.9+75) = 256 attack speed. It seems odd that he's graphed attack speed all the way up to 400, which is fairly unrealistic, while damage only goes up to 250 which is very frequently attained.

Other things to note: Charged Hammer is very inferior on Melee heroes because their capacity to deal out DPS is severely stunted by them often being unable to hit people -- in general more damage is superior to attack speed because the timing between each attack is needed to close distance. If your delay between each attack is smaller than the time needed to reach your target between attacks, any increase in attack speed has zero effect on total DPS. I would maintain that regardless of what the maths says, Charged Hammer is an extremely poor choice on any melee carry because of this. (That said, I wouldn't get Riftshards on many melee carries either.)

[CodexLevel6]

It seems odd that he's graphed attack speed all the way up to 400, which is fairly unrealistic, while damage only goes up to 250 which is very frequently attained.

:silh: :mast: can get such quick attack speed (temporarily). I agree though that the dmg range could be increased.

[`Shagroth]

... (That said, I wouldn't get Riftshards on many melee carries either.)

:glad: Hi.

[MacroHard]

Later today I'll reprint the graphs out to 350 damage. Not sure why this is necessary but it seems to be popular demand.

Thank you for the explanation xdvesper.

[Red``]

What a post! This is very informative! :dark:

[MacroHard]

Graphs now go to 350 damage, with the exception of Riftshards vs Savage Mace (because that graph has a single line that drops to negligible levels past 250 damage).

[iruul]

Can someone tell me what typical attack speeds and damages are for carries at various levels with common items? Otherwise, this graph does not mean much to me.

[MacroHard]

100 to 200 attack speed, depending on boots/abilities
100 to 250 damage, depending on how early you look to buy these items

[Nyandex]

>Screw math
THEN WHAT ELSE DO YOU HAVE, MACRO? ;n;

[BigBoss00]

Why no doombringer? Great work nonetheless.

[FiskOgHon]

Later today I'll reprint the graphs out to 350 damage. Not sure why this is necessary but it seems to be popular demand.
I agree with you. I don't see how anyone would deal 300+ damage without having equipped either Savage Mace, Shieldbreaker or Rift Shards.
Unless of course we are talking exceptionally late game and a lot of other items have been bought.

Considering Savage Mace > anything else and high AS favors it, Charged Hammer appears to be an obvious choice either before or after. Depending on your hero and point in the game.

Edit: You should take damage block into account when calculating SB :)

[MacroHard]

Savage mace wins, not just because of the DPS/gold, but because true strike and mini-stun are so very, very useful.

Shieldbreaker has a major setback in that it occupies an attack modifier slot (so no slow/lifesteal). It is very useful if you can stack more -armor abilities though. At <10 armor it is the DPS king. Also goes thru HOTBL.

Charged Hammer beats out Riftshards for sure, though many people have disagreed with me on this. Magic Damage is stronger late game and it chains to allies. The whole "one attack at a time" argument is largely invalid. 1) You can animation cancel more with faster attack 2) if you get interrupted for an attack its not as significant 3) if you cant stay still and attack for 2 or 3 seconds at a time then you are not carrying properly anyhow.v

[HowHigh2]

I think my brain just died..... lol :P what was the point ? i saw that some items do more damage with certain hero than same items on that another hero. so ill do like your recommendation ;)

[Coolcollo]

Savage Mace on Melee > Charged Hammer even if the damage was less.

As Octavia said, you have to be able to hit your target. The ministuns will stop them moving long enough to stay in position to make an attack. :3

It also has no counter aside from stacking armor.


about the 40 armor comment. My :keep: usually has way more than 40 armor and more than 2k hp :3

[powerofbr]

It really depends on the game.
my line of thought its kinda like this:

Savage mace does the most reliable damage, and the true strike and ministun its just too good to pass on and lol its not even an attack modifier.

Shieldbraker the sooner you get the better, you can literally one shot someone with some heroes. and its a great counter to tanky heroes. BUT its an attack modifier.

Riftshards have its value increased when a hero have some kind of bonus damage, like nomad gladiator etc. And for me its basically a " oh crap " item, when I have to believe my RNG chances and kill a hero VERY fast with 2-3 procs, like when im getting outcarryed but some other hero.

Charger hammer I think its the most debateable one, it can be great with some heroes like chronos, that can literally kill a whole team with it inside the chronosphere, or wildsoul to put the buff on the bear so no one attacks him.

sry for some english erros.

[Meganews]

Be a boss and get them all. thats my tips.

[Lord_Iuly]

Nice math and stats by the way ^^

I'm curious about Doom Bringer's DPS. I mean how much attack speed is sufficient to buy one ?

It seems logic to me that if you have < 250 damage --> Doom > Rift (i think when your attack speed is 2xx or 0.8 attacks per second). Please correct me if i'm wrong !

[MacroHard]

Nice math and stats by the way ^^

I'm curious about Doom Bringer's DPS. I mean how much attack speed is sufficient to buy one ?

It seems logic to me that if you have < 250 damage --> Doom > Rift (i think when your attack speed is 2xx or 0.8 attacks per second). Please correct me if i'm wrong !

Doombringer is more cost effective than Riftshards until your damage is 534, at which point Riftshards is more cost effective. However, at that damage Harkon's would most likely be your best choice. Doombringer is also very high risk.

Speaking of Harkon's, I will be adding Harkon's to this thread for comparison to the other 4 items sometime next week.

[Lord_Iuly]

Doombringer is more cost effective than Riftshards until your damage is 534, at which point Riftshards is more cost effective. However, at that damage Harkon's would most likely be your best choice. Doombringer is also very high risk.

Speaking of Harkon's, I will be adding Harkon's to this thread for comparison to the other 4 items sometime next week.

How did you came up with the 534 number ? I want to see some graphs or formulas to see the difference between rift vs doom.( Take your time, i'm not in a hurry)

And Harkon's is an op item... that should be in a graph ^^

Cheers !:+1luck:

[pechkin]

dmg+DB dmg <(RS dmg+dmg)*crit chance*crit multi +(RS dmg + dmg)*(1-crit chance)
aka DB dmg + +RSdmg < (rs dmg+dmg)*crit chance*crit multi + 0.8(rs dmg+dmg)
aka 250 + x < (75+x)*0.2*2.4 + 0.8(x + 75)
aka 250 < 15*2.4 + x/5*2.4 - 0.2x + 0.8*75
aka 154 < x*0.48 - 0.2x +
aka 154 < x*0.28
aka 154/0.28 < x
so x >= 550 dmg . *i may be wrong somewhere tho, but cant find it* didnt add modifier for when riftshards doesnt proc, now fixed :/

[MacroHard]

dmg+DB dmg <(RS dmg+dmg)*crit chance*crit multi +(RS dmg + dmg)*(1-crit chance)
aka DB dmg + +RSdmg < (rs dmg+dmg)*crit chance*crit multi + 0.8(rs dmg+dmg)
aka 250 + x < (75+x)*0.2*2.4 + 0.8(x + 75)
aka 250 < 15*2.4 + x/5*2.4 - 0.2x + 0.8*75
aka 154 < x*0.48 - 0.2x +
aka 154 < x*0.28
aka 154/0.28 < x
so x >= 550 dmg . *i may be wrong somewhere tho, but cant find it* didnt add modifier for when riftshards doesnt proc, now fixed :/

This is correct, gold not taken into account. When you consider RS costs 5500 and Doom costs 5600, the damage per gold break point is 534.

RS = (75 + 21 + .28D)/5500
Doom = 250/5600

(75 + 21 + .28D)/5500 > 250/5600
75 + 21 + .28D > 245.5
.28D > 149.5
D > 534.1

[MacroHard]

Added Harkon's versus Savage Mace and Charged Hammer. I'll get to Harkon's versus Shieldbreaker and Riftshards sometime this week.

[MacroHard]

Updated for 2.5.8

[DirecTwiX]

Hi... I was comparing SB with SM... And I have concluded that usually i should go SB (especially against str and int heroes, coz they have lower armor)..
Can u please check if its correct?)
And I'm sorry for my english :P
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43161184/SBvsSM.PNG
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43161184/SBvsSM.xlsx

[FiskOgHon]

Incidentals:


+ Positive Side Effects

Charged Hammer has an activatable that punishes attackers
Charged Hammer also hits nearby enemies with lightning
Riftshards can lifesteal from critical strikes
Riftshards critical strikes apply to splash attacks
Shieldbreaker lowers enemy armor such that allied attacks and physical spells also benefit
Shieldbreaker bypasses blocking from items
Savage Mace removes all chances to miss
Savage Mace interrupts enemy attacks and stops channeling abilities
Harkon's Blade lowers enemy magic armor such that allied spells also benefit



You forgot to remove this.

[Genjuro]

Oh you gotta be joking. I just wrote a big fat message about all of the different items which should elaborate some discussions.. Oh boy oh boy..

Sorry, really cba doing it again -it'l have to wait till later.

[MacroHard]

You forgot to remove this.

Thank you. It's fixed now

[MacroHard]

Hi... I was comparing SB with SM... And I have concluded that usually i should go SB (especially against str and int heroes, coz they have lower armor)..
Can u please check if its correct?)
And I'm sorry for my english :P
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43161184/SBvsSM.xlsx

It appears that you did total damage divided by cost of item. This tends to skew results towards the inexpensive item. Imagine minor totem: would its k factor be 101/0,053 = 1905?

I recommend comparing additional damage per gold.

[DirecTwiX]

I recommend comparing additional damage per gold.
Thanks.. And last question... Should I buy SB against STR and INT heroes rather than against AGI?

[BigBoss00]

Agility heroes don't end up with insane amounts of armour unless they get alot of it, you would be better off looking at their base armour or trying to predict their item builds.

[MacroHard]

I am the only person on HON who believes SB is far too overrated. It is so easy to counter and nearly every other straight dps item offers more efficiency and better side benefits (except riftshards).

That being said, sb counters low armor. Agi heroes tend to have the highest armor unless the enemy str heroes are smart and went daemonic/barbed/plated/frostfield etc.

[pechkin]

on agi heroes nullfire is a much better pickup, burn mana, slow, dispell, dmg, attack speed, not only dmg liek shieldbreaker does.

[SmurfinBird]

I am the only person on HON who believes SB is far too overrated. It is so easy to counter and nearly every other straight dps item offers more efficiency and better side benefits (except riftshards).

That being said, sb counters low armor. Agi heroes tend to have the highest armor unless the enemy str heroes are smart and went daemonic/barbed/plated/frostfield etc.

I've gone off shieldbreaker since the last change to it. I find myself hating the frostburn modifier too, neither of them seem to shine anymore. There are obviously some situations that they are better but I won't pick them as a safe bet anymore.

[MacroHard]

Updated for 2.5.18 (Charged Hammer now 5400g instead of 5500g).

[MonsterTrike]

Charged Hammer beats out Riftshards for sure, though many people have disagreed with me on this. Magic Damage is stronger late game and it chains to allies. The whole "one attack at a time" argument is largely invalid. 1) You can animation cancel more with faster attack 2) if you get interrupted for an attack its not as significant 3) if you cant stay still and attack for 2 or 3 seconds at a time then you are not carrying properly anyhow.v

1) This isn't true. The opposite is true, actually. I think you want to say that the back-swing on animations is shorter with faster attack speed?

2.) This is very true, but isn't going to have an appreciable effect unless we're talking about Pebbles vs. Pharoah. ;)

3.) The idea that a good carry must be able to stand still and attack for 3 seconds without moving is pretty silly. While easier for ranged carries, even they will frequently be in team fights that require them to constantly re-position themselves, and this doesn't mean taking one step, it usually means taking several.

What the numbers suggest is relevant only to games played in Practice Mode. ^^ There's a reason Charged Hammer is so unpopular in high-level play, and it's not because they just haven't seen your graphs yet. ;)

If you really want a test of the damage, get a friend of equalish skill to 1v1 you.


Both of you play Valk.
You get power-supply, steamboots set to agi (for no HP advantage), and a charged hammer.
Your friend gets power-supply, ghost marchers, and lvl 4 riftshardrs.
You both are quarantined to the legion jungle.
You may both go wherever you want, and fight however you want, so long as you don't leave the legion jungle.


Tell us the results of 10 rounds. :)

My money is on riftshards winning with superior kiting, and zero arrows landed. But, if you both just stand in front of each other and auto-attack, Charged Hammer would win (unless very unlucky lightning proc streak).

[DeepWaters]

Ive came across a difficulty while trying to read this thread:http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?344735-Savage-Mace-vs-Charged-Hammer-vs-Shieldbreaker-vs-Riftshards-Mathcraft

What does it mean values above curve favor riftshards? Where the curve beings and ends?

[ElementUser]

Example graph:

http://i52.tinypic.com/2qk05uc.png

The blue curve (lack of a better word) on the graph is considered "the curve" that you are referring to in this graph. Every point above (and to the right) of the curve is considered "values above curve" and such points/values means that mathematically (and under the assumptions that the graph maker makes in his briefing) Riftshards gives more DPS than Savage Mace.

The blue curve in this graph represents the curve where the DPS of Riftshards equals the DPS of Savage Mace as a function of both damage (x-axis) and attack speed (y-axis).

To explain it graphically, the red shaded area of the following graph is considered the "points above the curve" or "values above curve":

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3103/2qk05uc.png

[ShAdOw_LaNcE]

So it would seem that it's a fools move to get riftshards before late game.

[SmurfinBird]

So it would seem that it's a fools move to get riftshards before late game.

After some core items and maybe one luxury item some carries are close to the threshold.

[torfteufel]

i love this! being a thunderhammer fanboy makes me sleep well at night again :D

also i really dont like shield breaker very much. you just buy a ringmail (550gold) and laugh plus its just doesnt scale very well into late game (too much armor).

the main reason to why i like getting thunderhammer is you just shred their support while focussing whatever you want...bzzz.bzzz
also, once you have seen a legionnaire with the charged hammer buff initiate...priceless!

[Clytemnestra]

hello.can you do the same thing for hellflower on both int and nonint heroes?(not with the added bonus damage ofcourse)

[Marach]

yea, it would be interesting to see where items like nullfire blade, hellflower, wingbow and others stand...

[Ahimtar]

i think it would be pretty interesting to add doombringer there :)

[Aghny]

So, new graph for charged hammer ?

[MacroHard]

Updated for the recent buff to Charged Hammer and not-so-recent buff to Riftshards.

[Clytemnestra]

still,can we see old vs new charged hammer?

also i think i am reading these wrong.say,i am looking at sb vs savage 200 attack speed and 160 damage.Do i have to have these values before i buy the item or after?(because these items also give damage themselves)

[Necroth]

also i think i am reading these wrong.say,i am looking at sb vs savage 200 attack speed and 160 damage.Do i have to have these values before i buy the item or after?(because these items also give damage themselves)

Before.

[sabuk]

recomendation was the best :D

[Marach]

it seems the OP was not updated for HoN 3.1 (the runic shift). can we please get an update? would be interesting to see how the items stand now.

[MacroHard]

Finally updated. The 15% attack speed turned out to be substantial.

Even though Savage Mace is no longer king when it comes to DPS, it still has the best intangibles of all the items granting True Strike and Mini Stun without occupying an attack modifier.

[Clytemnestra]

LOL
Niiiicee, we might see more riftshards. Although, the ministun and ts from savage seems too good to miss...(and there are heroes that already have crit)

[Petzi`]

LOL
Niiiicee, we might see more riftshards. Although, the ministun and ts from savage seems too good to miss...(and there are heroes that already have crit)

idk why you call it too good to miss. Looking at the updated graphs, Savage mace, in my book atleast, recieved a substantial nerf, reducing it to a sub-tier item that i would rarely pick up unless i was vs zephyr/NH or a hard carry with Wingbow.

[Clytemnestra]

idk why you call it too good to miss. Looking at the updated graphs, Savage mace, in my book atleast, recieved a substantial nerf, reducing it to a sub-tier item that i would rarely pick up unless i was vs zephyr/NH or a hard carry with Wingbow.
When going toe-to-toe with a hard carry, you can really feel those ministuns killing your dps. It's like a weaker flint. It also lets you push base towers from a safe range.