Balance Dump

[china]

Now China will write how everyone knows that Gemini is broken.

:madm:

[Meatsmoosh]

plague rider is the most annoying hero ever in the laning phase outclassing vindicator in that regard. Might as well not have any hard carry bottom with a plague on the other team. keeping the creep wave at his tower 24/7, while keeping u underleveled and having infinite mana.. yea...
Oh and plague + bulwark/breastplate + RotT is 15 free armor to the whole team.

[skeloperch]

http://puu.sh/cpon

Well ****, this game is smart. I wanna go help Kenji build his anti-feminist fort. Also, that little twat owes me 10 dollars.

On an unrelated note, how do you guys feel about Devo? Considering this meta-game is tanky deeps, we should be seeing more of him.

[Anakha]

Yet when something like this was said in the supposed balance thread for Gemini, all the tryhards came out of the woodwork to let us know that "u mad cuz u bad" and "another pub smashed by a good Gemini player". Conclusion? Gemini's balanced. Funny how that works.


Now China will write how everyone knows that Gemini is broken.

Not like a child couldn't see it. Meh, Gemini's getting what he deserves coming to him.

[china]

Not like a child couldn't see it. Meh, Gemini's getting what he deserves coming to him.

Is it a he? Always thought it was bigender. :>

[Reldnahc]

Is it a he? Always thought it was bigender. :>

Maybe a she-wolf. /Shakira

[Anakha]

Is it a he? Always thought it was bigender. :>

I always Gemini a prick, not a ****. :3

[pewpewstar]

So if he/she/it splits and fire has sex with ice, would it be homosexual?

[Anakha]

Masturbation, really.

[commy]

This thread is reaching new highs.

[Vekinqt]

Remove :gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi:

[pewpewstar]

I think there's way too much sustaining power at the moment with healers and rings of sorcery. Is it a good thing you don't have to go back to fountain as often?

[dandylion]

I think there's way too much sustaining power at the moment with healers and rings of sorcery. Is it a good thing you don't have to go back to fountain as often?

It certainly makes the game more exciting. Both teams have similar access in any given match, at least to items (Mana Ring/Astrolabe) and there are plenty of heroes in the pool if you're running that kind of lineup (Jere/Accursed/Dsham/Martyr/Monarch/VJ/Empath/etc.)

Edit: It also encourages the bursty heroes making an appearance (Fayde/Midas/Pebbles/Etc.) If that's the direction they want things to go, I guess they're getting what they want. Is it the best for the game? I couldn't say.

[Penetrerad]

Nerf that :trem: please, way unbalanced

[dandylion]

Nerf that :trem: please, way unbalanced

Let's not forgot some of the other half-baked Nome heroes: :monk::noma::lord:

Imbalanced? Maybe not. Problematic design? Most definitely.

[Zilrax]

No Ra in your list? I am disappoint.

[dandylion]

I didn't want to jump on that bandwagon.

Besides, the whole "Problematic Design" part of :amun: can be summed up with Nome's own words:


I am a strong believer of “gimmick” heroes (http://nomeswisdom.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/hero-development-amun-ra/)

[Reldnahc]

I didn't want to jump on that bandwagon.

Besides, the whole "Problematic Design" part of :amun: can be summed up with Nome's own words:

He loves his heroes to have unique features.

:trem::I CAN BE EVERYWHERE AND YOU CAN NEVER ESCAPE, DONT FORGET THE SIXTH HERO TO OUR TEAM, SHUDDER!

:monk::A unique hero who made passives intriguing in the form of Harlequin? Better rework it into a wombo combo physical damage hero who can jump over stuff.

:amun::What is mana and why do I need it? Oh, most heroes who can burn my mana must use their skills 3-4 times before it has any use on me.

:emer::Auto pilot engaged. Why can't I outrange 99% of the pool, have a bird that harasses anyone who attempts to get within range, and has longer range spells than most nukers. I always wanted a "pet" that doesn't die and does its entire job effortlessly and better than anyone could micro with it.

:noma::I'm a unique carry who uses movement distance to fill out a traveling "nomad" approach to the role. Oh wait, I'm a physical burst carry who relies on anal devastation with :SolsBulwark::Shieldbreaker:.

:mida::Ranged heroes are good right? Blinks are good right? Stuns are good right? Heals are good right? AoE nukes are good right? Let's mash all that together and call it a day.

[Zilrax]

And don't forget the next one. The nuker equivalent of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE

[pewpewstar]

If Ra's skills had manacosts, how much would you give them?

[Skyve]

If Ra's skills had manacosts, how much would you give them?

75 for meteor, 50 for W. Would be enough to make continuously spamming his skills in lanes not feasible, but wouldn't restrict him much in teamfights.

[Lethe]

75 is a bit much. I'd be ok with 50 for both though.

[dandylion]

He loves his heroes to have unique features.

:trem::I CAN BE EVERYWHERE AND YOU CAN NEVER ESCAPE, DONT FORGET THE SIXTH HERO TO OUR TEAM, SHUDDER!

:monk::A unique hero who made passives intriguing in the form of Harlequin? Better rework it into a wombo combo physical damage hero who can jump over stuff.

:amun::What is mana and why do I need it? Oh, most heroes who can burn my mana must use their skills 3-4 times before it has any use on me.

:emer::Auto pilot engaged. Why can't I outrange 99% of the pool, have a bird that harasses anyone who attempts to get within range, and has longer range spells than most nukers. I always wanted a "pet" that doesn't die and does its entire job effortlessly and better than anyone could micro with it.

:noma::I'm a unique carry who uses movement distance to fill out a traveling "nomad" approach to the role. Oh wait, I'm a physical burst carry who relies on anal devastation with :SolsBulwark::Shieldbreaker:.

:mida::Ranged heroes are good right? Blinks are good right? Stuns are good right? Heals are good right? AoE nukes are good right? Let's mash all that together and call it a day.

I've never really had a problem with EW/Midas. Midas obviously does too much (heal, stun, high burst, mobility, slow), but number changes and little snips would be just fine. And EW is easily handled. Maybe a little too easy to play, but not outrageous.

[XFlame]

75 for meteor, 50 for W. Would be enough to make continuously spamming his skills in lanes not feasible, but wouldn't restrict him much in teamfights.
Going to play devils advocate here, but is it not enough that he already has to blow his own health to use a spell? Many people complain that he farms too fast, so why not just go the Zephyr route and nerf the damage that he does to creeps?

[dandylion]

Going to play devils advocate here, but is it not enough that he already has to blow his own health to use a spell? Many people complain that he farms too fast, so why not just go the Zephyr route and nerf the damage that he does to creeps?

Pretty soon every hero will be dealing half damage to creeps!

I don't feel that changing abilities to deal damage differently to creeps is ever the right way to go, but that's just me. It just seems more like a bandaid fix than a real solution.

Edit: And surprise surprise, no balance changes whatsoever.

[Skyve]

I don't feel that changing abilities to deal damage differently to creeps is ever the right way to go, but that's just me.

It's not always wrong. For instance with Rhapsody, it was the right thing to do, because it already affects creeps/heroes differently (more or less, considering creeps are more likely to take the full damage/heal).
Other than that though i dislike that unless it is done with good reason.

[dandylion]

It's not always wrong. For instance with Rhapsody, it was the right thing to do, because it already affects creeps/heroes differently (more or less, considering creeps are more likely to take the full damage/heal).
Other than that though i dislike that unless it is done with good reason.

To be fair, the Rhapsody scenario is the equivalent of saying "For instance with Midas, it would be the right thing to do, because it already affects creeps/heroes differently (more or less, considering creeps can't dodge the skillshots and are more likely to take the full damage/heal)." It's not a particularly strong case.

Besides, what makes it reasonable that heroes like Midas and Ra can instagib entire creep waves with two spell casts (and Midas can heal his own for that matter), and heroes like Rhapsody are relegated to dealing half damage to creeps because they "push too well". Demented Shaman can essentially do the same thing (every 6 seconds for that matter), and he's never really been put under scrutiny for it. It's not as much of a health differential between heal/nuke, but it's pretty massive.

[Mediocre]

Ugh...



Whats the point in discussing balance when s2 doesnt belive in balance changes.

[XFlame]

Pretty soon every hero will be dealing half damage to creeps!

I don't feel that changing abilities to deal damage differently to creeps is ever the right way to go, but that's just me. It just seems more like a bandaid fix than a real solution.


The real solution would be to remove all of the recent instant-creepwave-killers from this game. But that's never going to happen. And stuff like giving creeps more health is only going to throw balance out of the window even more. So this is the next best thing to do.

If Ra's problem is that he farms too fast, nerf his farming. I don't mind it that he deals tons of aoe in a teamfight. He also kills himself while doing it. He has **** armor and relies on his massive hp regen to keep him alive, so he already has enough counters. It's just that he can compensate for his weaknesses so fast (getting destroyed by -armor? np Bulwark in 4 minutes. magic damage? Shrunken/barrier in 8 minutes. Etc). That's what seems to make him a stupid hero.

On a personal note, I enjoy Ra's concept and I think he's a great addition to HoN. He's essentially Insanitarius in a hero format: kill yourself to kill others. The concept rewards risky play, allowing crazy balls-to-the-wall fights, which is just what HoN needs.

[Lethe]

oh cool, no balance changes. Typical $2.

[Launders]

Shocker

[XFlame]

Blood Hunter is perfectly balanced already, obviously.

Speaking of weak heroes, what would Nighthound need to become more viable, aside from not being considered as a dumb hero by 99% of the community?

[Mediocre]

Nighthound is fine. The hero is in my opinion insanely good. Blink+backstab deals so much damage.
His cloud is one of the more powerful teamfight abilities.

Its not the hero that needs changes, its bound eye that needs to be nerfed.

The same applies to all invis heroes: scout, madman and nomad (for instance)

[GregerMoek]

Insanely good is a bit much to say about that hero, I don't think he's awful but insanely good is on Drunken Master level and that he isn't.

[Machiavelli`]

S2 heroes(or almost full reworks) with any form of disables
:noma::ramp::empa::nymp::alun::pupp::silh::mona::m onk::trem::chip::zeph::fors::damp::gemi::gaun::eng i::myrm::cthu::fayd::emer::elec::mora::rhap::drun: :keep::pand::geom::mast::bomb::mida::amun:

S2 heroes without any disables
:dark::reve::para::lord::mart::madm:

Of course we could argue that Parasite can infest a creep with a stun, but that's another story.

People have been whining for too many stuns on S2 heroes even a couple of months ago, but since then we got braced by the presence of awesome heroes like Monarch, MK, GEMINI, DM or Midas. True blessings to the game.

[PzKw]

I didn't want to jump on that bandwagon.

Besides, the whole "Problematic Design" part of :amun: can be summed up with Nome's own words:

It can be better summed up with the assertion that Nome never (and probably still doesn't) understand the difference between designing a hero around a gimmick and a unique capability.

[YoshiO]

Holo!

Played a game last night and couldn't use Cthuluphant's Hook'em on Tremble's summoned minion, Shudder? Cthuluphant can use it on neutrals/enemy creeps but can he not use it on any user controlled non-hero unit i.e. Ophelia's Commanded Creeps, War Beasts Hellhounds, Whispering Helms Dominate?????

If this is the case, I think it should be changed.

[Mediocre]

Shudder is more like booboo. You cant control/purge or kill him in any instant way.

Which is wierd considering you can purge-kill malphas which is on a whole diffrent cooldown.

This is one of the things that make shudder so damn powerful (no proper counter).

[YoshiO]

Shudder is more like booboo. You cant control/purge or kill him in any instant way.

Which is wierd considering you can purge-kill malphas which is on a whole diffrent cooldown.

This is one of the things that make shudder so damn powerful (no proper counter).

Thanks! That does seem crazy powerful.

Does Electrician's Cleansing Shock not work either?

[Mediocre]

No it doesnt do any damage to shudder. When tremble was first released purges used to kill shudder.

It does, however, slow him.

[GregerMoek]

Shudder is like a global Arachna ult with HP instead of ammount of hits to die.

[Lethe]

A few of my thoughts:

1. Zephyr's stat gains are way to high given how strong his skillset is. I don't know why windshield gives +10% MS on attack as well. Not necessary.

2. Ra farms way too fast given that Q and W cost no mana and have negligible HP penalties combined with hotbl, E and headdress, which are very easy to farm up. This is really such a shitty concept.

3. Monarch still too good.

4. Would like to see Gemini reworked so he's stronger in non-ult form and weaker in ult form. Since that's probably not going to happen, I honestly think the only nerf he needs right now is for recombine to take the average value instead of the highest.

5. I feel a lot of good concepts like Geo and Moraxus have potential, yet are outshone by other heroes or have bad numbers, which is a huge shame.

6. I believe Nullstone is too cheap for what it gives, and am particularly annoyed by the 200% mana regen, which is simply ludicrous. %-based mana regen probably has the highest yield for investment put in, so it's a bit ****ed up when heroes buy nullstone without a thought about the other team (i.e. it's not even situational) and voila, can also cast freely to boot. By extension, it is also strong enough that it makes sac stone **** by comparison. This is something Dota did right.

[Launders]

Nh has such insane base armor its disgusting.

Random thoughts while in class:
Agonizing bonds is a little too strong considering the damage, pull, effective radius and cooldown. It makes him very hard to beat in most laning situations.

Midas needs the heal on Lions Pride removed.

Kraken is like Tidehunter's wet dream (and a totally retarded hero to boot)

Drunken Master needs his ult toned down, in either duration, or capping the number of spells he can block.

Shadowblade's Q should cost a little bit less mana.

Salforis should get an actual nuke for his Q and his aura should be reworked.

Rampage should just be removed from the game completely. I might actually hate him morre than batrider.

[Imjelly]

nerf monarch's silence to 450-500 you'll see a whole lot less amun-ra/monarch lanes and give back vision on pod, I miss that

[Anakha]

I see a lot of whining about things that are currently being, or have already been addressed. Funny that.

[McNasty1]

DUDE ..... :ramp: <---- DELETE THIS ****ING HERO JESUS CHRIST

.........................................

it's been broken for over 10 patches now ... without balance ... just like .. don't even rework it completely ****ing remove it it's by far the most game breaking bullshit scrub noob ****ery of all time, people are starting to call heroes "S2 heroes" because it seems every new hero you create or rework is ****ING RIDICULOUS

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Cyber_Kun]

You mean Rampage needs buffs?

I agree, he does. His only use is stomping noobs but in real matches he is quite lackluster.

[Shadeward]

You mean Rampage needs buffs?

I agree, he does. His only use is stomping noobs but in real matches he is quite lackluster.

Superior stun with a drag ability?

That's really, really strong.

[Cyber_Kun]

You mean the one that can get canceled with a Pushstick or Stormspirit that Rampage has no means to stop?

Because, let me tell you a hint because a lot of people don't know it. Even if Rampage picks up Shunrken and runs around Magic Immune, your friend getting dragged... well YOU CAN USE Pushstick/Stormspirit on. I know this is a surprise to you but it completely wastes Rampage ult.

[XFlame]

I wouldn't know how to buff Rampage really. He's a little too one-dimensional for my liking, but his ability to stun a single target for such a long time shouldn't be underestimated.

[GregerMoek]

He's also good at being ****ing annoying. :P

[Abi`Dalzim]

:gemi: not OP ?
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6914/gemw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/gemw.jpg/)

K/D: 6.24 and 81% win at 1700+ mmr range

[creepSG]

[QUOTE=Lethe;14770218]A few of my thoughts:

4. Would like to see Gemini reworked so he's stronger in non-ult form and weaker in ult form. Since that's probably not going to happen, I honestly think the only nerf he needs right now is for recombine to take the average value instead of the highest.



+100000000000000000000000000000000:gemi::gemi::gem i::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi::gemi:

[ShanoX]

:emer::drun::gemi: Nuff said. Is it possible to lose game with gemini? Not unless your team is bunch of mutated chernobyl chickens.

[Tedde]

Hah, :emer:

[changlingbob]

Because I am interested in people's perceptions on overall balance, I have produced a poll! It is here (http://is.gd/shtqTC)!

[Mediocre]

Because I am interested in people's perceptions on overall balance, I have produced a poll! It is here (http://is.gd/shtqTC)!

"peoples perceptions"

That form was pretty biased towards your thoughts.

By reading the posts in this forum, you should get a clear view on what people think about the overall balance...

[china]

It's an obvious troll.

[Mediocre]

Yea, my troll-radar isnt to effective in this part of the forums. ;)

[changlingbob]

Aside from gemini, notroll.

[skeloperch]

Aside from gemini, notroll.

Gemini isn't much of a problem besides the fact that his ulti is a little bit too powerful. And by a little bit, I mean a crap ton.

But yeah, if S2 nerfs HotbL, the era of Valkyrie returns. Do we really want to trade Valkyrie and Gemini for Zephyr and Ra?

Also, I think S2 should make more items less effective for ranged heroes. Like Shield Breaker not going through HotbL on ranged heroes, or just reducing less armor.

[changlingbob]

Gemini is a problem because statsbuild and blessed orbs.

Also, ra is being discussed in every thread. Its like he's ridiculous **** du jour.

[Zilrax]

Valks era never leaves. Change just determines if she's at the front or to the side slightly.

[skeloperch]

Gemini is a problem because statsbuild and blessed orbs.

Also, ra is being discussed in every thread. Its like he's ridiculous **** du jour.

You build a bunch of stats and then fall of because you didn't build proper items, and the enemy Valkyrie/MoA/Silly Hat/Wild Soul picks up a core and rape you. I'll admit he is pretty bullshit, but that's because his ulti was horribly designed, what with getting maxed regular skills in ulti without having to level them up, and movement speed and etc.

[Time`]

I have to wonder about the complete lack of balance changes by S2. There has been very little in the last 3 months. Heroes like Gemini and monarch largely stay the same despite community backlash. I understand they don't want to have to constantly jump back and forth on balance changes because of flavour of the month heroes, but seriously give the community something. It largely seems like they don't give a ****. The changes may have sometimes been unnecessary or implemented to counter flavour of the month heroes, but they did help mix up hero lineups, and they kept the game feeling fresh (Newly buffed heroes were almost as fun to play as 100% new heroes).

[`11411181]

I don't think I can hint any more than I already have.

[Myspacetom]

Balancing doesn't make S2 money.

Releasing shitty alt avatars and even more imbalanced heroes does. S2 is letting their game go to **** even though a lot of us prefer it to DOTA 2 which is quite horrible atm.

[Juuto]

I am so stressed and fed up with the "HoN Super Crew" of ridiculously overpowered heroes that make the majority of this hero pool useless. Like I understand how something can be "much better", but I think it's reached a point where you simply cannot afford to have fun with this game anymore. Sure, you'll get the games where people have fun with the picks within reason, but there are also a **** load of games where you are forced to pick one of the overpowered heroes in order for you to have a chance at winning against this ****.

It's tiring as hell. Sometimes, I want to try my hardest... ON A FUN HERO. But you can't afford to do that anymore when it seems like there are overpowered heroes in this game so strong that the only way to win vs them is to pick when of the other overpowered heroes. Not to mention that most of these overpowered heroes are boring as hell.

[Myspacetom]

I am so stressed and fed up with the "HoN Super Crew" of ridiculously overpowered heroes that make the majority of this hero pool useless. Like I understand how something can be "much better", but I think it's reached a point where you simply cannot afford to have fun with this game anymore. Sure, you'll get the games where people have fun with the picks within reason, but there are also a **** load of games where you are forced to pick one of the overpowered heroes in order for you to have a chance at winning against this ****.

It's tiring as hell. Sometimes, I want to try my hardest... ON A FUN HERO. But you can't afford to do that anymore when it seems like there are overpowered heroes in this game so strong that the only way to win vs them is to pick when of the other overpowered heroes. Not to mention that most of these overpowered heroes are boring as hell.


RaaaAaAaAaAAaAAAAAAAaaaaAaaAaAaAaAAaaaAaaAAAAAaaa!

S2 can go suck a dick at this point. Been playing three years and they've turned this game to ****.

[skeloperch]

RaaaAaAaAaAAaAAAAAAAaaaaAaaAaAaAaAAaaaAaaAAAAAaaa!

S2 can go suck a dick at this point. Been playing three years and they've turned this game to ****.

Oh, so you're one of those people. I would like to remind you how retarded the last 15 heroes IceFrog has implemented are, compared to the last 15 S2 heroes. S2 at least has the consideration to give us decent heroes periodically.

[Juuto]

Oh, so you're one of those people. I would like to remind you how retarded the last 15 heroes IceFrog has implemented are, compared to the last 15 S2 heroes. S2 at least has the consideration to give us decent heroes periodically.

Why is everything that you say completely stupid? JS.

A good load of the discussions on this forum are of people addressing one of your stupid comments.

[Benny0]

Oh, so you're one of those people. I would like to remind you how retarded the last 15 heroes IceFrog has implemented are, compared to the last 15 S2 heroes. S2 at least has the consideration to give us decent heroes periodically.

At least those 15 heroes don't go into the competitive hero pool after 4 (now six) weeks.

[`11411181]

Kinda going to side with skeloperch on this one. s2 do kinda smash IceFrog in terms of quality of initial introductions of heroes.

[Juuto]

Kinda going to side with skeloperch on this one. s2 do kinda smash IceFrog in terms of quality of initial introductions of heroes.

Pretty sure they both suck balls.

[`11411181]

Pretty sure they both suck balls.

That's your opinion. I see some decent heroes coming out of s2 at least, whereas almost all the newest dota heroes are remarkably useless or incredibly overpowered/situationally unfair.

[skeloperch]

Cough cough, Tresdin.

I understand sentiments against S2 heroes, it's just that I feel it's unfair that S2 gets the burden of everyone whining. When Icefrog poops out another hero, only a few people even question it.

Anyways, I do feel that S2 has been getting better with each release of a hero, with some oddities like Shadow Blade. Artesia was surprisingly fun to play, and didn't feel too powerful or weak.

[Theburned]

That's your opinion. I see some decent heroes coming out of s2 at least, whereas almost all the newest dota heroes are remarkably useless or incredibly overpowered/situationally unfair.

I don't see how this is different from HoN heroes...
I stopped playing HoN due to it being overfilled with blink heroes, half of the support heroes becomes useless, and the other half is not even good. I don't see this game being good anymore.

[Hsssh]

What support heroes are useless?

[XFlame]

Soul Reaper, clearly.

[iNsania]

I wouldn't consider Soulreaper as support hero though, imo, it's like saying Soulstealer is useless support^^

[XFlame]

Is your sarcasm meter off today? :/

[`11411181]

He's not from around these parts.

EDIT: BAT COUNTRY

[Hsssh]

I hope he sticks around, didn't look like a retard in c&c forum.

[`11411181]

I PM'd him once with constructive criticism (i know, right? ME) for something he did ages ago, and he was nice about it. Then again, he might be just randomly browsing forums like I occasionally do.

[dandylion]

Back when I played DotA, all of my friends would ***** "THIS GAME IS SO IMBALANCED! **** THIS GAME. ICEFROG CAN'T BALANCE ****".

Then when they played LoL, all of my friends would ***** "THIS GAME IS SO IMBALANCED! **** THIS GAME. RIOT CAN'T BALANCE ****. DOTA'S BALANCE WUZ SO MUCH BETTER".

Then when they played HoN, all of my friends would ***** "THIS GAME IS SO IMBALANCED! **** THIS GAME. S2 CAN'T BALANCE ****. LOL'S BALANCE WUZ SO MUCH BETTER".

Then when they played DotA again, all of my friends would ***** "THIS GAME IS SO IMBALANCED! **** THIS GAME. ICEFROG CAN'T BALANCE ****. HON'S BALANCE WUZ SO MUCH BETTER".

So in essence, when they were losing the balance was "terrible". There's too many factors in a game like this to balance everything perfectly, but they can try to get close. There's nothing glaringly imbalanced that hasn't been fixed in a *mostly* reasonable amount of time. As there is rarely a topic that *everyone* can agree on as being one way or another, it's probably a reasonable sign that things aren't that out of whack.

[LoveIsDead]

i'm hating what they've done to bubbles, first take cover now shell surf.

bubbles isn't RA, WHY NERF PERFECTION.

[Mediocre]

i'm hating what they've done to bubbles, first take cover now shell surf.

bubbles isn't RA, WHY NERF PERFECTION.

The take-cover duration was pretty imba combined with :Portalkey: :/

[XFlame]

Seems like Artesia is well designed. We need an 'Artesia Speculation' thread.

[PzKw]

I'm dissatisfied with the rate of change at the moment. I can't think of any good reasons why the development has been at a rate so much lower than competitors in the genre.

That being said, I have a hunch that the next changelog is going to be huge. We might be getting a proper realignment. Dat metagames breaker...

[Ekamo]

Seems like Artesia is well designed. We need an 'Artesia Speculation' thread.

Said and done. :)


I'm dissatisfied with the rate of change at the moment. I can't think of any good reasons why the development has been at a rate so much lower than competitors in the genre.

That being said, I have a hunch that the next changelog is going to be huge. We might be getting a proper realignment. Dat metagames breaker...

Or maybe the game just is perfectly balanced? ;)

[XFlame]

It's pretty balanced thus far, but there are still heroes out there that need some fixing (balph/mq/bh/etc).

[man_guy]

I'm dissatisfied with the rate of change at the moment. I can't think of any good reasons why the development has been at a rate so much lower than competitors in the genre.

That being said, I have a hunch that the next changelog is going to be huge. We might be getting a proper realignment. Dat metagames breaker...

Community reactions in the past have scared them into this excessively long testing cycle and they insist on waiting to see major competitions with hero X before they actually do something with them.

[Binket]

****... Fix gemini


kthnxbye

[PzKw]

Cough cough, Tresdin.

I understand sentiments against S2 heroes, it's just that I feel it's unfair that S2 gets the burden of everyone whining. When Icefrog poops out another hero, only a few people even question it.

Anyways, I do feel that S2 has been getting better with each release of a hero, with some oddities like Shadow Blade. Artesia was surprisingly fun to play, and didn't feel too powerful or weak.

The whine is universal. Conversely, S2's last few releases have been good, while Ice's have been bad. I think Icefrog drew inspiration from hon's design direction for them to be honest.


Community reactions in the past have scared them into this excessively long testing cycle and they insist on waiting to see major competitions with hero X before they actually do something with them.

Long test cycles are good as long as you are testing enough changes to justify it. I like the idea of treating the beta version as a complete release candidate, rather than a progressive test bed, because it puts the focus onto the effect on the game of given elements you're testing, as opposed to them in isolation. Large patches with a mix of new content, huge amounts of gentle balance and a few partial remakes and overhauls are the best ones because they force people to relearn portions of the game, which encourages the development of new play styles and strategies, which then meet and interact in interesting ways by virtue of their novelty and asymmetry.

This is the reason why the period a few weeks after a big patch is the most fun and interesting...

[Juuto]

Free Warchamp.

[`11411181]

**** Warchamp.

[TRYTROUSERS]

actually i was playing ursa in dota 2, and i was thinking how if he was in hon he would go negative in every single game just because 2/3 of the hero pool can blink/charge/leap/monkey king away from him.

[Hsssh]

Escaping from Zephyr isn't that hard either, problem is taking him down.

[dandylion]

actually i was playing ursa in dota 2, and i was thinking how if he was in hon he would go negative in every single game just because 2/3 of the hero pool can blink/charge/leap/monkey king away from him.

I've always felt the "OMG EVRY HERO HAZ BLINK" argument was far overplayed.

Counting exclusively heroes with blink/charge/leap abilities (including those that can be used on allies):
:magm::wret::gemi::myrm::mage::cthu::bubb::mida::k rak::shad::dark::geom::valk::chro::nigh::doct::mal i:
17/96 total heroes = 17.7%

DotA (port/partial port)heroes:
:magm::wret::mage::bubb::valk::chro::nigh::doct:
8/51 dota heroes = 15.686%

Iffy heroes:
:andr::phar::sand::pebb::devo:
(terrain walking, situational "blink" use, uncommon position modifying "saves" ie. Devo hook to ally, pebbles toss to creep wave)

HoN exclusive heroes:
:gemi::myrm::cthu::mida::krak::shad::dark::geom::m ali:
9/45 hon heroes = 20%

Iffy heroes:
:drun::monk::gaun::amun::silh::pand:
(terrain walking, situational "blink" use, very low range blink, uncommon position modifying "saves" ie. Gauntlet Grapple)

MK/DM ommited primarily because of the miniscule range on their "blinks", which could be comparable to that of a tablet push.


I may have missed something, but I think it's pretty close.

[skeloperch]

I've always felt the "OMG EVRY HERO HAZ BLINK" argument was far overplayed.

I may have missed something, but I think it's pretty close.

On top of that, a lot of DotA heroes have multiple escapes, or have extremely strong escapes (Valk has both). And you're being nice.

The reason Ursa is so stronk in DOTA2 right now is because the truly op heroes haven't made it in yet, but I can't honestly say Ursa is, or was, ever weak. He is strong as ****, and can farm easily and safely, knowing that he is tanky, and almost always has his aegis.

[sho_Opao]

nerf Gemini so that when he recombines from ult, the hp is the average of the two

OR

if one wolf is disabled, he wont be able to recombine.

[innova3]

Dota has bigger problems than hon when its about balance i think.
just look broodmother,lich,prophet, anti-mage, night stalker, and some other ones.
dota has big balance probs. Some heroes cant be played against cuz of the superduper opness(Antimage, prophet,broodmother...)

[KingKay]

Just came up with an idea. Make gemini lose double the gold (or a percentage more) if he dies while in ult form. AoE teams counter him already, I think that nerf would lower his overall farming capabilities as well.

[Antimodus]

Just came up with an idea. Make gemini lose double the gold (or a percentage more) if he dies while in ult form. AoE teams counter him already, I think that nerf would lower his overall farming capabilities as well.

silly idea for a nerf IMO.
For one thing, it's inconsistent. Wildsoul, Tremble, and Sil don't lose double the gold, nor should they. Also it's an on-death nerf. This requires that the 15 minute 2x2k HP Gemini dies, already a fail assumption.

The point is that with stats maxed and unparallelled xp farming ability, he will easily be level 16-17 (with +stats maxed so effectively like another hero would be at 20 stats-wise) while the 9 other heroes in the game are somewhere between 8 and 14. It's not even about the gold, 5bracer + abyssal is honestly a cheap core, those items + a good level advantage is all he really needs to AHUAEHUAEHUAE all over the game

[TheJohns]

Maybe make Fire & Ice's breath & stun scale with Gemini's instead of ult alone? Would make stat build less effective.

[Benny0]

My goodness, I haven't played Dota or HoN or anything in quite a while, and I finally check everything and notice HoN hasn't had a balance change in months (okay, monarch got poked) and Dota decided to screw nerfs and upwards balance every single hero except antimage.

Perhaps I'm happy S2 hasn't balanced much recently, because I'm terrified it'll be as abusrd as Dota's.

[china]

I'll leave this here: http://www.dotallyrad.com/2012/01/warchamp-calls-out-diva-maliken-honcast-in-big-cryfest/#more-11977

=)

[`11411181]

daggius' response is pretty much 100% what I think about the whole thing.

[Tedde]

Agree with daggius. Son is butthurt.

[Hsssh]

You have to be slightly retarded(or know some super inside info of Maliken raping black kids) to have different opinion on this matter.

[china]

Office politics influence the game so negatively (see: Maliken's greed). It stagnates the development of anything else.

(Yes, I have insider infos, considering I was somewhat close to a number of S2).

[Reldnahc]

I'll leave this here: http://www.dotallyrad.com/2012/01/warchamp-calls-out-diva-maliken-honcast-in-big-cryfest/#more-11977

=)

Did he honestly think Nome did the game better? He was a nice guy, but come on.

[Monkeydash]

Nerf gemini A LOT... DO IT NOW..
PS. NERF

[Scoffers]

Nerf gemini A LOT... DO IT NOW..
PS. NERF
http://i.imgur.com/OzA3s.png
yes please do

[Antimodus]

http://i.imgur.com/OzA3s.png
*lowers sunglasses*
problem, officer?

[TRYTROUSERS]

I've always felt the "OMG EVRY HERO HAZ BLINK" argument was far overplayed.

Counting exclusively heroes with blink/charge/leap abilities (including those that can be used on allies):
:magm::wret::gemi::myrm::mage::cthu::bubb::mida::k rak::shad::dark::geom::valk::chro::nigh::doct::mal i:
17/96 total heroes = 17.7%

DotA (port/partial port)heroes:
:magm::wret::mage::bubb::valk::chro::nigh::doct:
8/51 dota heroes = 15.686%

Iffy heroes:
:andr::phar::sand::pebb::devo:
(terrain walking, situational "blink" use, uncommon position modifying "saves" ie. Devo hook to ally, pebbles toss to creep wave)

HoN exclusive heroes:
:gemi::myrm::cthu::mida::krak::shad::dark::geom::m ali:
9/45 hon heroes = 20%

Iffy heroes:
:drun::monk::gaun::amun::silh::pand:
(terrain walking, situational "blink" use, very low range blink, uncommon position modifying "saves" ie. Gauntlet Grapple)

MK/DM ommited primarily because of the miniscule range on their "blinks", which could be comparable to that of a tablet push.


I may have missed something, but I think it's pretty close.

You conveniently fail to mention stuns and knock backs, which could also be used to distance oneself from ursa. I don't know why people don't count them as escapes. If hammerstorm stuns you and galvanizes you aren't going to catch him as a melee hero without a blink or gap closer up. Compare ganking a hero like MK to ganking a hero like Lina, its a joke.

[PanicBomber]

S2 please, my account is morgan_6

I am sick and tired of picking gemini every game just because i dont want to play against it cus its so stupid and broken. The only way to lose with it is to have a HORRIBLE team who feeds the 5 enemy players huge items in short time.

The hero is ****ing riddiculous, and u should really lower its stats gain + the ulti hp gain.

[kessu1]

S2 please, my account is morgan_6

I am sick and tired of picking gemini every game just because i dont want to play against it cus its so stupid and broken. The only way to lose with it is to have a HORRIBLE team who feeds the 5 enemy players huge items in short time.

The hero is ****ing riddiculous, and u should really lower its stats gain + the ulti hp gain.
Banning pick says hi )

[Hsssh]

Office politics influence the game so negatively (see: Maliken's greed). It stagnates the development of anything else.

(Yes, I have insider infos, considering I was somewhat close to a number of S2).

Hay guys, i ahve super secret info but i won't share, i'm just mentioning it so you know that i know **** and i'm right.

In other news HoN is charity.

[XFlame]

Playing DotA2 makes me realize what improvements S2 has made to certain dota heroes. Axe without Legio's charge just doesn't seem right.

[PzKw]

I think he's right though. S2 appears to have really deep corporate problems, but I've had that suspicion since a few months after beta when the development of the game got really schizophrenic.

[PzKw]

Edit: F2P isn't one of those problems.

[china]

Speculation:

Decision making is probably far too centralized, and the team sports little in ways of agility. It's pretty obvious they're mired in what's possibly an unhealthy atmosphere filled with cliques and clashing visions/ideas. That's how it always is when a company experiences huge success: some attribute it to growing pains, but I attribute it to growing greed.

[PzKw]

Speculation:

I don't think it's growing pains or greed, I think it's misallocated resources ie. bad management. I don't think there's enough programmers to compete with the rate of change in other games in the genre. When the shop was first released, I thought it was to soak the art team's time while they wrote another engine for a new project, now I realise it's because their art team is so big compared to the rest of the company. You could put that decision down to greed, but at the end of the day, no one likes to fire people who've been with you from early on, and you could pretty strongly argue it's unethical practice.

I'm near to certain Nome and Diva had very different ideas about the direction of the game, and my assessment is that both had/have some pretty serious flaws. Nome was never cut out to be a designer in a competetive MOBA, and Diva is a little too rigid in his view of viability. This basically combined to lead to a year of designs that were centered on gimicks that either incidently became capability which was broken, or were downplayed in order to cram big numbers onto the hero. The net effect of this was a generation of heroes that felt really samey and templated, or which were just stupidly unfair in certain ways that themselves weren't very well thought out or original.

Mind you, this is based on a single conversation with Diva and reading Nome's blog. My opinion is that Diva is very intelligent, but limited by some flawed implicit assumptions he's not fully aware of, and Nome is genuinely just a self impressed idiot who insists on trying to apply largely self invented principles to a genre their importance is grossly secondary to design principles and conventions established by people who floor him for understanding of the game.

(I can't even emphasise the point on Nome enough - every time I read his blog my opinion on him drops a little more - I actually quit the game for a month when he released Tremble because it was such a terrible idea, and he came out in a blog recently and says that he thinks its because mounds are destroyable but take too long etc which frustrates people, rather than the free RoHx1.5+Yasha+NH ulti+Furion TP+Skadi+Duplicate hero from 6+EZmode last hitting. Tremble is honestly the most ****ed up backwards design I've ever seen post 5.x series DotA, rivaled only by Death Ward SA, Invoker V1 and Gambler. And you know what? They were all removed for a reason.)

[PzKw]

Also, the biggest travesty of the shop, worse than the 10USD skins, is the fact that the worst skin in the game, Warbeast, not only hasn't been remade so it doesn't look ****ing retarded, it hasn't even had an alt avatar released yet.

Seriously, what the ****?

[dandylion]

You conveniently fail to mention stuns and knock backs, which could also be used to distance oneself from ursa. I don't know why people don't count them as escapes. If hammerstorm stuns you and galvanizes you aren't going to catch him as a melee hero without a blink or gap closer up. Compare ganking a hero like MK to ganking a hero like Lina, its a joke.



blink/charge/leap/monkey king away from him


Your words, not mine.

You didn't specifically mention stuns and knockbacks either, but if that's something that you would like to cry about, there are plenty of heroes in DotA that disable as well. Let's count movement speed boosts too. And evasion. And invisibility. And items. And oh dear, now every hero in the game has a way to stop Ursa! It's too bad he can't do things to avoid those too...

[Hsssh]

That's how it always is when a company experiences huge success: some attribute it to growing pains, but I attribute it to growing greed.

I don't know, could you like write what exactly you think is greedy about S2 or Maliken? HoN must make money, if not there is no reason to develop it further, this is not charity. One time pay wasn't giving enough money so they added item shop and EA heroes to increase profit. With more money game can be supported better and stuff like hon tour can be organized.

I too would have preferred if f2p/EA wasn't introduced and HoN was left on life support. /sarcasm


Nome is genuinely just a self impressed idiot

Amen. But i heard China likes him :(


and he came out in a blog recently and says that he thinks its because mounds are destroyable but take too long etc which frustrates people

What do you think about his explanation that he hates one-shotting and how he is sad that Nomad is built like this?

[Reldnahc]

:madm: bring back his stun

Heroes like :gemi::amun: get their retarded stuns and are still able to carry. I truly loved the playstyle of the hero with his stun. Was the definition of manning up and was a hell of a lot of fun to play.

[skeloperch]

:madm: bring back his stun

Heroes like :gemi::amun: get their retarded stuns and are still able to carry. I truly loved the playstyle of the hero with his stun. Was the definition of manning up and was a hell of a lot of fun to play.

You have to be a certain distance away from :gemi: to be stunned, and same with Ra. On top of that, they get completely shut down by Shrunken Head, while Madman doesn't. MM can go mid and gank easily with just a bottle, and has the luxury of building every carry item in game and still be useful. MM is also running at max movespeed with close to 60% up time. Madman was even better when he got his stun removed, and had to be nerfed to what he is now.

[Launders]

^ that was because the barrel roll removed attackspeed iirc

[`11411181]

It removed % of aspd, rather than flat -aspd. (back then)

[PzKw]

What do you think about his explanation that he hates one-shotting and how he is sad that Nomad is built like this?
It's fair analysis, but it's a common fault shared by several physical damage melee semicarries at the moment, and it's one of his less significant design problems (Miragespamlol).

I've posted a lot about what I think needed to be done to shore up Nomad design wise. Remove charges on Wanderer from hitting, remove Wanderer from Mirage and reduce the cooldown on it (leave Truestrike as it is), increase MS gain from Sandstorm.

Then sit and see how he plays, buff/nerf as required, but at least you have the concept shored up then, and the design is consistant and workable.


:madm: bring back his stun

Heroes like :gemi::amun: get their retarded stuns and are still able to carry. I truly loved the playstyle of the hero with his stun. Was the definition of manning up and was a hell of a lot of fun to play.
Are you ****ing retarded? Firstly, Axe and Lego are the definition of manning up, secondly, a line stun on an agi carry with incredible positioning and mobility is the definition of derpery.

[Reldnahc]

It's fair analysis, but it's a common fault shared by several physical damage melee semicarries at the moment, and it's one of his less significant design problems (Miragespamlol).

I've posted a lot about what I think needed to be done to shore up Nomad design wise. Remove charges on Wanderer from hitting, remove Wanderer from Mirage and reduce the cooldown on it (leave Truestrike as it is), increase MS gain from Sandstorm.

Then sit and see how he plays, buff/nerf as required, but at least you have the concept shored up then, and the design is consistant and workable.


Are you ****ing retarded? Firstly, Axe and Lego are the definition of manning up, secondly, a line stun on an agi carry with incredible positioning and mobility is the definition of derpery.

1 second is more than enough. :silh:

[Skyve]

Why can't they just make the attribute bonus into a passive ability so it simply deactivates when gemini enters his split form?

[skeloperch]

Why can't they just make the attribute bonus into a passive ability so it simply deactivates when gemini enters his split form?
That's not even the most significant of his design flaws. He needs a total rework on his ulti for him to be balancable.


I've posted a lot about what I think needed to be done to shore up Nomad design wise. Remove charges on Wanderer from hitting, remove Wanderer from Mirage and reduce the cooldown on it (leave Truestrike as it is), increase MS gain from Sandstorm.

Then sit and see how he plays, buff/nerf as required, but at least you have the concept shored up then, and the design is consistant and workable.

No. No no no no no no no no. That isn't shoring up the design, that's dumbing the game down. Nomad, like other physical dps monsters like DW, DM, and Tremble, are supposed to be nigh-unfightable in a 1 on 1 close range fight. What you're doing is completely changing his role. He sits in a really good spot right now, from what I can tell, if not being a little under powered. He is easily counter-able (ring mail, RotT, Greaves, Bracers, Grave Locket), but he packs quite a punch. He is a one trick pony, true, but that doesn't mean we go and change him. I mean, for how long have Pebbles, Pyro, and etc. stayed one-trick-ponies? If they don't get worked-around, than neither should Nomad.

Furthermore, his main design flaw is that he is too easily countered, but is a monster if left uncountered. I don't have problems fighting Nomads, since I know all of his tricks, but that's because I'm more experienced than most pub-trash. Plus, when you look at it objectively, he has a lot more flaws than strengths. Despite all of his flaws, though, your suggestions would turn him into a snore-fest and nerf him at the same time, which is horrible.

[Qpo]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=381132

^ this is nice and all, BUT:
1) Slowpoke. All changes done could probably have been made in a week or so (by someone capable).
2) Nerfing Zephyr's heal at the same time as HotBL is INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO GET JUST RIGHT. Why not start with nerfing only HotBL, since that item is a problem on more heroes than just Zephyr, and then see how Zeph turns out, and then take it from there?

Large patches with low frequency goes against everything that has to do with troubleshooting. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If the changes are introduced one by one — as in first introduced, tested, analysed, then the next one goes through the same steps, and so on and so forth — then I can understand releasing them all at once to the public in one big pack, in a sort of "first let them suffer, then treat their pain — *****es love to be treated like that" kind of way, but it'd still be more effective to launch any change that is for the better.

The reasoning probably goes something like this: "Since people need lots of time to get used to, and understand a new patch, it's better if we introduce lots of changes at once, to speed up the process", but that's completely lol since the more changes included in each patch, the longer it takes to find out if it was good or not. And since every change affects everything else, the time it takes to test a new patch increases exponentially as the number of changes increases.

If it has to do with downtime and they not wanting to interrupt games, well, they could just have a certain hour each day (like 5 am or some ****) that would be the patch slot, giving people a chance to work around it.

[`11411181]

People whine if balance patches are slow, people whine if balance patches are scattered and fast. Can't please everyone.

[skeloperch]

People whine if balance patches are slow, people whine if balance patches are scattered and fast. Can't please everyone.

This.

I would much rather have deliberated balance patches every month and a half than knee-jerk nerfs/buffs every week or two.

[Qpo]

Pleasing everyone is the most stupid goal imaginable, and is certainly not what I'm after — I only care about them making a good game (note that what I call good, scrubs call bad).

[PzKw]

That's not even the most significant of his design flaws. He needs a total rework on his ulti for him to be balancable.



No. No no no no no no no no. That isn't shoring up the design, that's dumbing the game down. Nomad, like other physical dps monsters like DW, DM, and Tremble, are supposed to be nigh-unfightable in a 1 on 1 close range fight. What you're doing is completely changing his role. He sits in a really good spot right now, from what I can tell, if not being a little under powered. He is easily counter-able (ring mail, RotT, Greaves, Bracers, Grave Locket), but he packs quite a punch. He is a one trick pony, true, but that doesn't mean we go and change him. I mean, for how long have Pebbles, Pyro, and etc. stayed one-trick-ponies? If they don't get worked-around, than neither should Nomad.

Furthermore, his main design flaw is that he is too easily countered, but is a monster if left uncountered. I don't have problems fighting Nomads, since I know all of his tricks, but that's because I'm more experienced than most pub-trash. Plus, when you look at it objectively, he has a lot more flaws than strengths. Despite all of his flaws, though, your suggestions would turn him into a snore-fest and nerf him at the same time, which is horrible.
I give up, I'm putting you on my ignore list because you don't understand the design intent of Nomad. Which is what we were talking about. I've tried for as long as I could to avoid doing this, but I really just can't be ****ed reading your drivel anymore.

[Hsssh]

Pleasing everyone is the most stupid goal imaginable, and is certainly not what I'm after — I only care about them making a good game (note that what I call good, scrubs call bad).

In other words they should please you.

[Qpo]

Any change one can't understand one will likely call "knee-jerk", but that doesn't mean that those that DO know what needs to be done should stop their work, just because someone who DOESN'T understand whines. It's like a small child going: "Why are you doing that? Why is this a good thing? Where are we going? Why must I come along? Why must I wear these shoes?" etc. etc. The teacher/parent doesn't have to explain anything, the best (i.e. most effective) solution is probably to just punch the child in the face, and then drag it along to the doctor to cure whatever (perhaps fatal!) disease it has. If you, in your weakness, couldn't ignore the child's queries you might've even let it die! — omg! Won't someone for the love of god PLEASE think of the children?!?!

Convincing people is a waste of time, it's better to just get the job done. The only people worth spending time explaining for, is those who can contribute to the work in progress.

The reason why you, skeloperch, don't want efficient, short-cycle patches — AGILE patching, if you will — is because you are stupid, and as such don't want the game to have too much skill (other than perhaps the PEWPEW type of skill, which there's plenty off in e.g. Bloodline: Champions, so you could try that out (it's actually fun, for a while at least)), as that would, no doubt, work in your disfavor. You will never be able to realize this, but the knowledge is always present in your mind, subconsciously, and it is what guides your actions and words. It's what motivates you against a more efficient way of improving the game. (Note that I haven't read much you've written, but all I need to make this judgement is the attitude towards you from those I respect. If you were smarter you would, for example, ask PzKw for more reasoning behind why those changes to Nomad were the best way to go, instead of going "nonoonoonononono" and saying that his suggestions dumbed the game down, something which isn't possible in all but the rarest cases (even the best of us makes mistakes occasionally), since what PzKw wants and the game improving are more or less exactly the same thing — indeed, the latter can even be defined with the former. This is because he is smarter than you, and as such wants — needs — a more challenging game to sustain his interest.)

So, S2, when reading this thread for example, has to decide which "side", so to speak, they want to go with. Since noobs obviously can't balance for high-level play (since they've never played at it, lol), and experts get physically nauseous from purposely making a game worse (though that could possibly be compensated with money), it really comes down to what level S2 are at themselves, and what their intentions are (they obviously want to make money, but the question is WHOSE money they are after). They can't go out and pick a side openly though, as that would alienate a large part of their potential customers, so we have to try and "read the signs" as some sort of digital mystics, lol. Perhaps fun, in a way, but really, I just want to play a good game, so if there's no hope of this ever becoming one (though that depends on how picky one is: some might be satisfied with "80% expert + 20% casual", while others want "100% expert"), then I would immediately stop writing and reading about it (at the moment playing is out of the question).

[Qpo]

In other words they should please you.
That is of course what I want (it's what everyone wants, lol (themselves that is, not me, hahaha)), but the question which decides if it's worth hanging around to find out if they ever will or not is: ARE THEY EVEN TRYING? That is, what is their goal with this game? A game with high mental skill (as e.g. Chess or Go)? A game with a high cap for technique (e.g. micro + macro in SC:BW)? ... or neither? (LoL!)

It's not like I'm alone in what I want, or that I have some CRAZY design goals which would make this a completely different game (those kinds of ideas are best explored in — you guessed it — A NEW GAME, instead of REPLACING the current one with them). Basically everyone that isn't a scrub wants the exact same thing, it's just that some of us have sacrificed more time than others to analyse how to make it possible, i.e. what changes are required. It's not rare at all that some guy I've never seen in this forum before (probably because he's busy playing) jumps in and takes something right out of my mouth.

Edit: Note that even if I was completely alone in what I wanted, I would still advocate just that. But that situation is pretty pointless, and if that was the case I'd be better of making a game of my own, since that would be a lot more likely to give the results I was looking for.

[changlingbob]

Since noobs obviously can't balance for high-level play (since they've never played at it, lol)

Strongly disagree :)

People who are bad at balancing will be bad at balancing; have you heard some of the suggestions that come out of the competitive forum?

[Hsssh]

The reason why you, skeloperch, don't want efficient, short-cycle patches — AGILE patching,

Software development is on another level than balancing games or game development in general. Asking it to be done in same efficiency is mistake because that will result, mostly, in bad decisions. After 30 years? It should work but it creates big problems at the moment.

[PzKw]

Big patches with stable fallback versions that tournaments are played on are the best way to shape how people play the game, which is half the battle developing this genre. Email me, it's a topic worthy of more discussion than I can be arsed producing on an iPhone.

@QPO btw.

[changlingbob]

So basically the opposite of 'we won't make any balance changes while $tournament_name is on', because hey! there's always the next tournament.

[Qpo]

Strongly disagree :)

People who are bad at balancing will be bad at balancing; have you heard some of the suggestions that come out of the competitive forum?

You're not really disagreeing with me, you're talking about the reverse of what I'm saying. I'm only saying that noobs balancing for experts is impossible, not that "highly competitive players" always know balance best — indeed, they often seem to ****ing SUCK at improving (i.e. balancing) a game. I talk about this at some length in "Who Is The Real Expert? (http://culture.vg/features/commentary/who-is-the-real-expert.html)".

What can be seen from the outside (here (http://culture.vg), clicking on Features and scrolling down a bit):


But while having superior execution (http://insomnia.ac/commentary/domination_101/so_you_want_to_be_a_dominator_part_1/) often is enough to win, it alone doesn't make an expert on the game any more than winning a fist fight by being physically superior makes someone an expert on boxing. Freddie Roach isn't a reigning world champion, but he is an expert on boxing.

I'm putting things in a general way, so that it'll be useful in more than one instance, but for HoN, basically this: "Stupid people can learn how to last-hit well. If a team is dependent only on last-hitting, then they will want the game to be balanced around ONLY that, to increase their chances of winning, whether it actually makes a more fun game or not." (Though HoN is obviously about more than just last-hitting, etc.) In other words, MSI and whoever else is fagging around in the "Competitive Discussion" forum can suck my dick. (Note that I've never read a single post in that forum, but I'll take PzKw's word for it (this is also what prompted me to write what I just linked): "Silo could be fixed so easily by being given TA like range and altering the cap/CD on Salvo to compensate, but she would instantly be considered "unviable" and MSI would probably cry until they circlejerked one another off.")

And just for the record, whoever the devs listen to regarding balance (i.e. incremental design) are the actual designers of the game.



Software development is on another level than balancing games or game development in general. Asking it to be done in same efficiency is mistake because that will result, mostly, in bad decisions. After 30 years? It should work but it creates big problems at the moment.

You might have a point, since if we are dissatisfied with a dish we might have to change more than one spice at once to move it in the right direction (since the balance between them is important), but it is also true that sometimes simply increasing or decreasing the amount of salt is all that needs to be done.

Also, balancing a game (i.e. changing variables, i.e. changing the game) IS game development which IS software development. It's true that the levels are different — we might call the basic framework "software development", while at the alpha stage it becomes "game development", and after release it's "balancing" — but it's really the same thing (methodology might change at different stages, though).

Developers do seem to always try a lot of things at once, but while I don't know if that's due to development cycles or whatever, I am convinced that it's not the most effective way. I'm suspecting hype has a lot to do with it: "Hey guys! We have a great patch ready! But we're not going to release it yet!!! In 3 weeks it'll be out!!" <- this buys 3 weeks of hype/excited expectation/happy fans, but if they released it right away instead (assuming it's ready) then they'd be 3 weeks ahead in the balance marathon. At any rate, if devs fixed small issues continually it would have A LOT less PR-value, since it'd be more or less "invisible" — especially for noobs, which is often the same group that is easily swayed with hype (since they don't know the game intimately enough to form their own opinion), HMMM...

... (<- represents the time passed as I wrote the above)

PzKw, will do.

Also, I am 100% for not changing anything (i.e. changing the game) while a major tournament is going on (as then the tournament would change, and be for another game, in the middle of it, lol!) Though with fallback versions, as PzKw mentions, it shouldn't be a problem to release a new patch "for the public" while the tournament keeps playing the one before it (this way devs can also safely ignore tournaments and focus on their game).

[Mediocre]

I give up, I'm putting you on my ignore list because you don't understand the design intent of Nomad. Which is what we were talking about. I've tried for as long as I could to avoid doing this, but I really just can't be ****ed reading your drivel anymore.

You havnt done that yet? ...

[Hsssh]

You might have a point, since if we are dissatisfied with a dish we might have to change more than one spice at once to move it in the right direction (since the balance between them is important), but it is also true that sometimes simply increasing or decreasing the amount of salt is all that needs to be done.

Then we pretty much agree, it depends on situation.


Also, balancing a game (i.e. changing variables, i.e. changing the game) IS game development which IS software development. It's true that the levels are different — we might call the basic framework "software development", while at the alpha stage it becomes "game development", and after release it's "balancing" — but it's really the same thing (methodology might change at different stages, though).

Maturity level is different. While game development is software development it's less evolved and is surrounded by lots of bad **** that doesn't allow it to reach high quality/efficiency levels. Also lots of arguments can be made that quality of game development actually decreased in recent years. In other words what works for middle aged man might not work for slightly retarded young kid.


Though with fallback versions, as PzKw mentions, it shouldn't be a problem to release a new patch "for the public" while the tournament keeps playing the one before it (this way devs can also safely ignore tournaments and focus on their game).

Tournament mode should use last stable version at least for one week till we know that **** ain't broken.

[china]

"- Gold gained from creeps and neutrals now normalizes over time
* An example: Two heroes farm a lane for 20 minutes getting equal creep kills. Before, their gold values would have differed greatly. Now, they will have nearly equal amounts of gold."

I flamed and insulted Deejay, and in extension DogKaiser, for actually believing random gold was good for the game. n1 s2.

[Skyve]

They have been planning to do that for quite some time now afaik.

[china]

They have been planning to do that for quite some time now afaik.

I've been pushing for this since the dawn of time, even though their iteration is an agile shift between three scenarios, I vied for static values.

My latest push for it was sometime in September/October. And there was no iteration of it in the client. I think six months prior to that I pushed for it as well.

So yeah, looks like someone saw logic. Finally.

[Tedde]

What do you think of damage range on attacks, china? Would normalizing damage ranges on all hero attacks create problems?

[Zerazar]

What do you think of damage range on attacks, china? Would normalizing damage ranges on all hero attacks create problems?

I'm obviously not China but I can explain some of it.

High damage ranges are bad at last hitting. Assuming the same average, considering that you should last hit according to your minimum damage, having a high range makes you have to last hit later, which makes it easier to disrupt. Thus giving heroes high damage ranges can make them great at harassing without making them great at farming. (Obviously low damage ranges gives higher minimum damage and thus better last hitting, but doesn't make you better or worse at harassing).

That said, I'd really like to see damage ranges getting normalised. The above is a fine sacrifice for reducing random luck into the game (ever lost mid because of firstblood given away with >10 hp differential? Because I have. Plenty a times. At that point RNG (luck) is actually a real, probably deciding factor).
But I'm afraid too many will compare to LoL and say no entirely because of that =(.

Generally I prefer static/normalised numbers when possible. Certain mechanics require chance because of the way numbers work (for instance it's required on HotBL to not be actually, 100% immune to creep damage, rather than just 80%).

[skeloperch]

I'm obviously not China but I can explain some of it.

High damage ranges are bad at last hitting. Assuming the same average, considering that you should last hit according to your minimum damage, having a high range makes you have to last hit later, which makes it easier to disrupt. Thus giving heroes high damage ranges can make them great at harassing without making them great at farming. (Obviously low damage ranges gives higher minimum damage and thus better last hitting, but doesn't make you better or worse at harassing).

That said, I'd really like to see damage ranges getting normalised. The above is a fine sacrifice for reducing random luck into the game (ever lost mid because of firstblood given away with >10 hp differential? Because I have. Plenty a times. At that point RNG (luck) is actually a real, probably deciding factor).
But I'm afraid too many will compare to LoL and say no entirely because of that =(.

Generally I prefer static/normalised numbers when possible. Certain mechanics require chance because of the way numbers work (for instance it's required on HotBL to not be actually, 100% immune to creep damage, rather than just 80%).

I don't think people comparing HoN to LoL is a problem; they're in the same genre, so of course people will. You just ignore those people, because they also probably wear tinfoil hats.

But still, LoL had way more RNG than HoN. Both games have been working to eliminate some of the randomness of RNG, while DotA has been adding even more RNG. I don't think we should normalize attack damage completely, but no hero should have >9 damage differentials on their auto-attacks. That is dumb.

Also, RNG is a deciding factor for quite a few heroes. I don't think you could remove all of it from HoN without ruining certain aspects of it. Certain heroes will be broken, towards which end of the scale I don't know. :warb: :pest: :flin: and :wild: would probably need huge nerfs if RNG were removed (and they obtained that spell on every x amount of hits or something).

[Zerazar]

Yea, I'm aware that all RNG obviously can't be removed lest whole ability concepts and mechanics be ruined.

I'm just talking about not having it without it being necessary, or at least minimizing it so that it's only as random as is necessary. For instance the duration on Booboo root could be decreased while proc chance was increased, same average uptime but generally more 'reliable' or "calculable", both when playing as and against him.

That said, delete Blacksmith. Instantly. At the very least rework his ult to just get increasingly reliable x2 multicast rather than friggin' ****in' stupidly retardingly getting random FOUR times moronic multicasts. So mad :madman:.

[skeloperch]

My thoughts exactly. RNG should be minimalized, but not removed. HoN has some pretty tricky to balance heroes if you remove RNG (Torturer, Pharaoh, Wildsoul), but it's mostly DotA heroes that are that way. You know S2 can't change them without everyone crying that S2 dared to touch their favorite pubstomper.

[Ekamo]

I've been pushing for this since the dawn of time, even though their iteration is an agile shift between three scenarios, I vied for static values.

My latest push for it was sometime in September/October. And there was no iteration of it in the client. I think six months prior to that I pushed for it as well.

So yeah, looks like someone saw logic. Finally.

They listened to you, since your argument was solid. Plus someone also came up with a way of making it being seemingly random while it actually is not, a solution that was never brought up in discussions you had before.

I just think the part where you called the developers idiots and monkeys were where they disagreed with you >)

[Ekamo]

A post I earlier made about the random gold issue in a private sub forum.




I have an issue with removing randomness entirely.

This is not what we have discussed so far, what we have discussed is ONE instance of an illogical mechanic opposed to all of the random mechanics that actually make sense and add a layer of depth to the game.

Miss Chance
25 % miss percentage when it is uphill is a mechanic that enforces strong lane control in midlane and it also serves a purpose by helping to fend of pushes.
A valid reason for randomness with no real replacement solution.

Attack Damage Range
By differentiating harassing and killing with last-hitting you can give a hero different purposes with a spread attack damage. Balances out a lot of heroes that would be with a static base damage extremely strong in the laning phase. In this case I can see the argument for RNG creating more diverse game play since a last-hit battle should never be decided only on the hero with the highest base damage but also on skill.
This was for reasons beyond me removed in Dota2, and I think the game as a whole will suffer from it (even though slightly).
A valid reason for randomness with no real replacement solution.

Ophelia's Judgement (the old version)
It gave a high damage window that meant that this skill with some luck could be one of the most damaging skills in the game, but if you were unlucky most heroes could just shrug it of. There was or is no justification for having the older version of the skill.
A non-existant reason for randomness that later resulted in this skill being reworked.

Critical Hits
This is actually way more complicated than one might think initially. We could compare heroes such as :pest: and :chro: with both having a passive bash, where one is reliable and one is not. And we could also compare heroes like :madm: and :pupp: with both having a passive crit, where one is reliable and one is not. The main think that stands out when comparing this is the numbers. The reliable skills have considerably lower proc rate (20 % vs 30%) than the average of the other skills. Even though one might argue that the comparisons are between completely different heroes which makes it invalid I would say that the numbers show us one very important thing:
Reliability > Randomness
Reliable skills can be used and abused by skilled players on a completely different level compared to unreliable ones where a pub will proc on average the same amount of times as a competitive player. Chronos MUST have lower values on his passive bash, since time has shown that when that was not the case, he was extremely broken.
This topic though is far more complicated than I have shown here and I have no intention on wasting more time than necessary on it.

If you went through all of the random instances in the game you could probably create a pretty decent list. The final judgement on most of them is based on objectivity in almost all of the cases. And this is also how I think the foundation of the game should be built upon; "Is this bringing the game in the right direction?" is a question that constantly must be asked when making changes to it, and the answer to it can not be built on personal bias. It must have strong, supportive arguments to validate it.


No unique rune can spawn twice in a row.
No unique creep camp can spawn twice in a row.
Creeps now give flat gold.
Neutrals now give flat gold.
Kongor now gives flat gold.


When it comes to random mechanics in this game it is these that stand out. They make no sense, and from an objective point of view I simply can't see the reasons why any of these suggested changes shouldn't be put it, or why they weren't like this to begin with.
I can absolutely understand Mr. X's standpoint and am not saying it is just complete BS. But are we willing to sacrifice balance and consistency for an opinion that I honestly don't think a lot of players (and especially competitive ones) share?

When reliability is put into place instead of RNG it can be abused by skilled players. And when it comes to it, this game should be decided upon skill, whether it is skill in picking phase, teamplay or just simply a matter of individual skill.
Less unnecessary random variables --> More skilled gameplay --> Better game from both a viewer perspective and a player perspective.
A game that strives for being as competitive as possible should try to remove unnecessary RNG from the game, or otherwise it will never reach it's full potential.

* Mr. X is obviously not really named Mr. X.

[Tedde]

It is not removed in DotA2 btw.

[changlingbob]

Yeah, attack ranges are in dota 2, just not displayed by default

[PzKw]

You havnt done that yet? ...

I really felt bad, because he was pretty much already talking to himself without realising it. He's been ignore listed by at least 90% of the semi-regular posters here, and I had this horrible image of a little kid pulling at the trousers of grown ups in a conversation and talking, only to not even be acknowledged, so instead, going and having a full blown tea party conversation with stuffed animals and growing up to be a timid social retard.

But I'm over it now. He hasn't made a post that wasn't either completely incorrect or too far from the actual topic of conversation to be useful in as long as I can remember.

And nothing of value was lost.

[Ekamo]

It is not removed in DotA2 btw.


Yeah, attack ranges are in dota 2, just not displayed by default

My bad then, didn't know that.

[Cyber_Kun]

Hey, I still like Skeloperch. He tries to improve, and that is a rare quality here.

I am never going to ignore him!

[Ekamo]

Or you just don't ignore people and be nice, like me :).

Report inappropriate or plain out bad posts. I'll try to keep deleting posts that bring nothing to threads but hard to keep up sometimes.

Can we please get back on any sort of topic, regarding the game we're all playing, instead of flaming other users?

K, ty.

[`11411181]

Stupidity or repeated lack of understanding isn't reportable.

[changlingbob]

Neither is refusal to listen to cogent arguments.

[skeloperch]

Hey, I still like Skeloperch. He tries to improve, and that is a rare quality here.

I am never going to ignore him!

<3

Also, on the randomness thing, I at least think MM's crit and SB's crit should get reworked. Scout's I'm a little on the fence about because of how powerful it is, but meh.

[PzKw]

Most of the problems with randomness that keep being brough up could have been solved ages ago with a PRD model similar to DotA's. This was one of the biggest areas that I felt S2 cut off the nose to spite the face. The fact is that PRD worked very well, and refusing to substitute the systems we've been through for PRD was an example of refusing to pick a better solution because 1: DotA had it and 2: Purely on paper, a proper randomness system was as good or better, so in the almighty quest to outdo DotA, HoN couldn't be seen to retain "Heirloom mechanics".

If I had a dollar for every heirloom mechanic that S2 should have ported, but didn't because they didn't understand the underlying reasons why it existed, I could probably pay all my traffic offenses for the Christmas period. >: (

Edit: DotA/WC3 replace as necessary.

[Hsssh]

What is this PRD you speaking about?

[Lethe]

pseudo-random

[PzKw]

Pseudorandom Distribution.

As an example, an ability that in DotA says "5Y chance to deal a 2x crit on hit" will actually accross multiple hits have:

1Y on the first hit
3Y on the second hit
4Y on the third hit
6Y on the fourth hit
8Y on the fifth hit
10Y on the sixth hit

And if you hit, it reverts to the start of the number sequence...

Blah blah blah, I'm making the numbers up, but it's the general gist. You have a lower chance than the stated amount on the early hits, and a higher amount after the average number of hits it should have taken. This prevents chains of procs and chains of misses... Doesn't exist on all chance based abilities (some have true random distribution a la HoN)...

Where I first started looking into it was when HoN was having trouble with its randomness distribution and was habitually landing chains of procs, which was actually a serious problem with CH and Thunderclaw because it would never proc, then proc 3-5 times in a row on a high IAS hero, and nearly instantly win a teamfight (and often the game)... Because this never happened in my tens of thousands of games of DotA, and statistically should have been highly improbably, and was happening fairly frequently, I looked into it more... Not that PRD is a secret in DotA, it's well known to most people who know anything about mechanics, I just hadn't counted on HoN adopting an alternative that swung the other way. Afaik, the new randomness model avoids this phenomena.....

[Hsssh]

Oh, was aware of that mechanic in dota, just didn't know what it was called. Thanks for clarification.

[pewpewstar]

Might as well rename this forum to 'shitty pub anecdotes forum'

[PzKw]

Holy ****ing ****, every game I've had today, undone by teams with no apparent concept of what's going on.

Every. Single. One.

[Skyve]

Attack Damage Range
By differentiating harassing and killing with last-hitting you can give a hero different purposes with a spread attack damage. Balances out a lot of heroes that would be with a static base damage extremely strong in the laning phase. In this case I can see the argument for RNG creating more diverse game play since a last-hit battle should never be decided only on the hero with the highest base damage but also on skill.

If you read through that, do you not realize that that is complete bullshit? How does randomness create more diverse gameplay or make the whole thing any more skill reliant?

[`11411181]

You must overcome randomness with surety aka overplan something. This is a gameplay trait that fosters absolutes, as opposed to 'hope for the best, owell gg random'

[BustaBust]

fix gemini u fkn retards

[Skyve]

You must overcome randomness with surety aka overplan something. This is a gameplay trait that fosters absolutes, as opposed to 'hope for the best, owell gg random'

You'd still have to do that with static numbers... and it doesn't have anything to do with randomness.

[PzKw]

Oh god this game sucks when it goes long, it's not because of the rebuy changes, it's because teams fall apart lategame. Supports aren't designed to function at 70 minutes, and all the farm in the world doesn't let them do their job when carries are 1shotting them.

The other problem is that even mid-lategame, it takes way too much to crack a base, even twenty kills ahead if the other team has a reasonable stalling draft, and you don't have a basecracking team. The actual lead required is huge to nail a base when you start throwing heroes like Flint and Slither into the mix with some meat in front of them. It's indecisive and a pain in the arse, particularly when you consider eyes being thrown around which stop you from gaining a big eco advantage by eating their forest behind offensive wards.

I really think this is still the game's big weakness; when 2-3 heroes on both teams get huge midgame farm and the game enters a stage of brinkmanship and who flinches first loses.

I still think there's something to be said for removing more defending advantages, or introducing the equivalent of the timer in fighting games (ofc nothing so inelegant) to reward more aggressive play in uneven mid-lategames. At the moment, getting either a really important pick, or 2-3 picks is the only way, and it doesn't take a whole lot to avoid that happening.

I mention this not because I just lost a very long game (77 minutes) but because looking back, we clearly lost it because we tried to press an advantage that wasn't large enough. At the time I was about 22 5, and we had two other carries running positive KDRs and >300GPM with multiple high tier items (Nomad, Ra, FA, Midas, Glacius v Magebane, Flint, Slither, Electrian, Dsham). Even at the end of the game, their Flint was wearing the scars of the huge midgame rape we served him with a negative KDR.

The issue I take is that hard initiators don't exist anymore. The concept of blinking a Centaur/Magnataur etc in and kicking down their door is dead, in all games in this genre, and while HoN has picked the tempo up enough that it's very rare to see the long games that are common in DotA 2 (largely due to global pressure to cover other hardcarries, Furion's doling out a lot of it at the moment), when it does go long, it falls apart, and the precepts of the genre really strain under the huge numbers being thrown around.

I think this is squarely a design issue that's been overlooked for a very long time, and is something that the genre needs to address. Some bold innovation is needed here, the game would greatly benefit from a new mechanic or set of mechanics that are harder than the base entrances being wider and regen tweaks to buildings (though these were necessary steps forward).

The thing that convinces me of this is that all of the uber long games I've ever been stuck in have had this slightly comical and retarded feel to them, where stupid **** has always happened. It's easily the weakest point of DotA, DotA 2, HoN and even LoL. When the game goes late, good sense goes out the window unless it was carefully drafted for, and the superlate is not something people should or do draft for, and if there were any merit to the idea of decreasing the importance of the draft phase, it's in decreasing the need to run base crackers to get in the door.

Tenacious defences make this game un-fun because they take the game places it's never been steady on its feet in.

[Hsssh]

There is this freeware strategy game Wesnoth where **** is random as it gets and in essence general idea in community is(or was few years ago, haven't revisited it for ages) that you have to apply enough force that even random element can't stop you from winning.

This add another layer when you have to decide if odds are good enough or do you need to get more stuff in position. With statics numbers you'd always know that if x then do y.

Sure it resulted in some wtf games but it had rather well defined group of top tier players who managed to consistently win games due to them being good at "overplanning".

[Hsssh]

I think this is squarely a design issue that's been overlooked for a very long time, and is something that the genre needs to address. Some bold innovation is needed here, the game would greatly benefit from a new mechanic or set of mechanics that are harder than the base entrances being wider and regen tweaks to buildings (though these were necessary steps forward).

I played rise of titans(i think? chinnese dota clone) beta and it had boss fights(like Kongor) that if you killed boss then in mid lane your own boss would spawn and push them ****ers to the throne.

Haven't played it a lot(iirc beta ended shortly) but it felt like it was introduced for this exact reason- to let winning team get into the base.

Obviously i'm not sure how effective it is since i played like 15-20 games of it but sounds like a possible solution.

[changlingbob]

Lategame base fights are the worst

So what are the actual problems here? From my understanding of what you've said:

Combined with defenders advantage, lategame carry numbers are excessive;
Hard initiators (other than, like, ES) are absent to jump in and stop such a defense;
Base crackers don't exist to ignore such a defense;
Game mechanics don't exist to bypass such a defense.

Does that more or less sum it up?

E: lategame carry numbers may be excessive anyway, but lets stick to a single thing here

[`11411181]

Have inner towers and buildings tick down armour as a function of time passing. Start at 30min (ideally you want base sieges to really start being productive around then), and then every x minute, both bases start losing 1 armour on all their inner buildings. This makes pokes far more effective, and backdooring becomes much more viable.
Secondary effects from this is that a team with an advantage WANTS to force teamfights as opposed to farming out more, as a team with any kind of backdoor advantage (lolnymph or pwp double ults) will easily start cleaning up a base, one rax at a time.

[Mediocre]

Oh god this game sucks when it goes long, it's not because of the rebuy changes, it's because teams fall apart lategame. Supports aren't designed to function at 70 minutes, and all the farm in the world doesn't let them do their job when carries are 1shotting them.

The other problem is that even mid-lategame, it takes way too much to crack a base, even twenty kills ahead if the other team has a reasonable stalling draft, and you don't have a basecracking team. The actual lead required is huge to nail a base when you start throwing heroes like Flint and Slither into the mix with some meat in front of them. It's indecisive and a pain in the arse, particularly when you consider eyes being thrown around which stop you from gaining a big eco advantage by eating their forest behind offensive wards.

I really think this is still the game's big weakness; when 2-3 heroes on both teams get huge midgame farm and the game enters a stage of brinkmanship and who flinches first loses.

I still think there's something to be said for removing more defending advantages, or introducing the equivalent of the timer in fighting games (ofc nothing so inelegant) to reward more aggressive play in uneven mid-lategames. At the moment, getting either a really important pick, or 2-3 picks is the only way, and it doesn't take a whole lot to avoid that happening.

I mention this not because I just lost a very long game (77 minutes) but because looking back, we clearly lost it because we tried to press an advantage that wasn't large enough. At the time I was about 22 5, and we had two other carries running positive KDRs and >300GPM with multiple high tier items (Nomad, Ra, FA, Midas, Glacius v Magebane, Flint, Slither, Electrian, Dsham). Even at the end of the game, their Flint was wearing the scars of the huge midgame rape we served him with a negative KDR.

The issue I take is that hard initiators don't exist anymore. The concept of blinking a Centaur/Magnataur etc in and kicking down their door is dead, in all games in this genre, and while HoN has picked the tempo up enough that it's very rare to see the long games that are common in DotA 2 (largely due to global pressure to cover other hardcarries, Furion's doling out a lot of it at the moment), when it does go long, it falls apart, and the precepts of the genre really strain under the huge numbers being thrown around.

I think this is squarely a design issue that's been overlooked for a very long time, and is something that the genre needs to address. Some bold innovation is needed here, the game would greatly benefit from a new mechanic or set of mechanics that are harder than the base entrances being wider and regen tweaks to buildings (though these were necessary steps forward).

The thing that convinces me of this is that all of the uber long games I've ever been stuck in have had this slightly comical and retarded feel to them, where stupid **** has always happened. It's easily the weakest point of DotA, DotA 2, HoN and even LoL. When the game goes late, good sense goes out the window unless it was carefully drafted for, and the superlate is not something people should or do draft for, and if there were any merit to the idea of decreasing the importance of the draft phase, it's in decreasing the need to run base crackers to get in the door.

Tenacious defences make this game un-fun because they take the game places it's never been steady on its feet in.

If you have an advantage, counter-ward (buy eye if nessecary) and kill kongor. After that you can force a teamfight at their base to get raxx, or farm/gank/push outer towers (to get more mapcontrol) for 6 mins then go for raxx.

Mapcontrol is the key to everything in the mid-to-lategame.

All competitive teams does this. Thats why kongor is so important to kill when you have an advantage (or use it to GET an advantage)... and the other team must do what they can to stop it.

[changlingbob]

Only if an extra life on one hero and sacrifice of an item slot can overcome the force-multiplier of a defenders advantage. Some non-trivial proportion of the time, and attacker with a token ends up in a position that getting killed means he's in a bad position and dies again, 'wasting' the token.

[Mediocre]

Pubs tend too throw away an early advantage by not getting kongor and superior mapcontrol, which gives the other team a chance to come back into the game... thus the game will last much longer than it "should have".

Competitive players are much better at keeping the advantage, which is why most competitive games dont go into super-lategame.


Games are not "supposed" to last forever, unless the teams have "equivalent" hero compositions and the players average skill is about the same (equal amounts of throws occur).

[`11411181]

You talk about map control, but there comes a point where your supports even slightly out of position will get solo'd in 1 second by anyone with any amount of farm, an Eye is common and there are very very few warding spots that are sight-proof, and they are all very traditional open spots that are easily checked.

The only consistent map control that is possible at that point is by simply forcing a DOL situation (defend or lose) by pressuring a rax with enough heroes to warrant the involvement of every single person there.
This point can occur as early as 30min into the game right now, and eventually it becomes an arms war - because you're unable to teamfight successfully at a disadvantage (uphill miss, lack of sight, tower, lack of flanking options - and only blind initiation except through certain skills (snotrocket etc.).
If teams can't teamfight or crack a base, they farm.

You massively overstate how much influence a token has against a team properly set up to defend with a minimum of farm.

[PzKw]

I should add that two games earlier, my game went superlate in DotA as well. We found ourselves as Sven Wr Lion CW QoP against Drow DP Rhasta Tidehunter Sniper, as another sidenote, I play Chinese DotA, and the lategame effectively entered the buyback cycle period, until my team, by their own admission, became bored and tried a push on their third rax without buybacks, and found ourselves counterpushed (mid was down both sides, we had top as well) before they had respawned (I bought back). We'd gotten the other rax through a mix of base trades and forced buybacks and cooldown, but if they actually defended, there was almost nothing we could do no matter how well we initiated.

Overwhelmingly though, the game was silly. Every super late game I play is silly. Having played DotA for nearly as long as it's been around, I can't remember a super late game that wasn't silly.

In the HoN game, the distance to fountain was actually a huge factor - as Nomad, I physically needed more space to kill Flint. If Magebane jumped FA and he wasn't screened, he would balk halfway accross the map, but I only had a few thousand units to harry him before I had to give up and accept joining battle with Flint chasing me back in. That's beating a dead horse though - defending is easier, not just in HoN and DotA, but in nearly every game ever.

And yes, we tried tokens, but by that stage it was pretty much a pitched fight. The really telling thing was that when we were 2 rax down we then did the same thing to them a few times.

[skeloperch]

Ohhey, I got my question answered by S2. Looks like S2 has nothing in particular in mind for meta-game shifts.

[PzKw]

I was trying to keep myself off HoN tonight by playing CoH. But I can't find CoH. Why would I have deleted it; I decided a long time ago I wasn't going to give up on it until they release the new balance patch, or add the ability to play without ToV and OF additions, and since one of those two things was eventually going to happen, it stands to reason that I never would have deleted it.

:(

[Hsssh]

Heartbreaking story.

[Livers]

Said and done. :)



Or maybe the game just is perfectly balanced? ;)

Yes balphagore and salforis are perfectly balanced and aren't underpowered in any way you ****ed up retard.

[Hsssh]

Where that came from?

[XFlame]

Mad.

Balph still needs fixing though. I heard Gravekeeper uses corpses as well, so I'm interested to see how he works in combination with Balph.

[`11411181]

Balph and Gravekeeper will directly compete for corpses in a lane. I don't think Balph needs anything at all.

[Launders]

I was trying to keep myself off HoN tonight by playing CoH. But I can't find CoH. Why would I have deleted it; I decided a long time ago I wasn't going to give up on it until they release the new balance patch, or add the ability to play without ToV and OF additions, and since one of those two things was eventually going to happen, it stands to reason that I never would have deleted it.

:(

Oh man CoH turtling is infinitely dumber than HoN turtling, no doubt, though I still LOVE CoH. You dont know choke points until you've spent the better part of a 2 hour game trying to kick down the door to someone's HQ (and by that I mean trying to cross the bridge on the Hochwald Gap, and by THAT I mean getting your tanks blocked by the remains of enemy tanks and your infantry getting pelted by mortars and artillery, the biggest cluster**** in an RTS, ever).

After reading what you described earlier, I kind of feel like CoH has that same effect, the game is great and feels Saving Private Ryan epic up until the point where someone decides to lame it out. As you also said, fighting games dont have this problem because there is a counter ticking it down from the get-go, but obviously that doesn't really work here. Interestingly enough, in one of the DOTA2 tourneys I watched on joindota, there was a tie for placement, so in order for the team who was playing the game to advance, they had to beat the previous team's time of like 38 minutes. It was a very interesting game because the team who had to beat the clock had to play ballsy and take risks or they would lose by default. They ended up winning, doing it a couple minutes faster than the previous team, but it wasnt a stomp by any means.

I also agree with the notion that it is harder to attack than defend in pretty much every game. 9/10 times attacking puts you at a disadvantage position wise and probably hinders your ability to defend yourself depending on what game youre playing.

[changlingbob]

I also agree with the notion that it is harder to attack than defend in pretty much every game. 9/10 times attacking puts you at a disadvantage position wise and probably hinders your ability to defend yourself depending on what game youre playing.

This is actually good balancing, as it means you need to be n ahead of your opponent to attack, instead of just getting lucky in the push, to win. The problem comes when it is hard to get n ahead, and that problem is rife in this genre by going uphill being such a huge struggle when someone doesn't want you to.

[Launders]

I mean both have their pros and cons, but as its been stated, its kind of demoralizing to have an advantage, and then try to press the advantage by pushing, only to be met by a defense that is brutally efficacious considering what they're working with.

[Hsssh]

It's not only that fighting games have timer but trying to play defensive often is not even viable when you are getting rushed. Like try to play KoF98 defensive, you'll be put into corner in 2 seconds and raped shortly. When you have to constantly guess if next attack will be high or low then you can be pretty sure that you'll get hit after few attempts.

I believe this is main reason why lots of old gamers were like "wtf is this ****" when they saw SF4 and its ultra system.

[Hsssh]

Balph and Gravekeeper will directly compete for corpses in a lane. I don't think Balph needs anything at all.

Sorry for double post, but are you saying that Balph is at good place right now?

[Anakha]

Yes. He's a buffed version of the hero that saw successful niche play, after intiial nerfs saw him almost universally touted as gutter trash.

[Skyve]

I also really don't think Balph needs much more than a team that picks him.

[PzKw]

Oh man CoH turtling is infinitely dumber than HoN turtling, no doubt, though I still LOVE CoH. You dont know choke points until you've spent the better part of a 2 hour game trying to kick down the door to someone's HQ (and by that I mean trying to cross the bridge on the Hochwald Gap, and by THAT I mean getting your tanks blocked by the remains of enemy tanks and your infantry getting pelted by mortars and artillery, the biggest cluster**** in an RTS, ever).

After reading what you described earlier, I kind of feel like CoH has that same effect, the game is great and feels Saving Private Ryan epic up until the point where someone decides to lame it out. As you also said, fighting games dont have this problem because there is a counter ticking it down from the get-go, but obviously that doesn't really work here. Interestingly enough, in one of the DOTA2 tourneys I watched on joindota, there was a tie for placement, so in order for the team who was playing the game to advance, they had to beat the previous team's time of like 38 minutes. It was a very interesting game because the team who had to beat the clock had to play ballsy and take risks or they would lose by default. They ended up winning, doing it a couple minutes faster than the previous team, but it wasnt a stomp by any means.

I also agree with the notion that it is harder to attack than defend in pretty much every game. 9/10 times attacking puts you at a disadvantage position wise and probably hinders your ability to defend yourself depending on what game youre playing.
I only play ranked 1v1, because the game is a lame cheesefest in 2v2 3v3 etc. It doesn't help that half the 2v2 map pool is bridge maps that let you choke it down and turn the game into an arty party.

If you stick to 1v1 VP and the game is solid, apart from the niggling design problems on PE and Brit that force THEM to play cheese strats and everyone else to adopt cheese in return. I just veto Industrial Riverbed, the map with a huge bridge in the middle and Semois, depending on the rotation, in that order of priority.

As I said though, playing Annhilation on any bridge map is pretty much ticking a box prematch that says "I want to play a 2 hour arty party." I don't consider it a problem, because the game was designed for 1v1 VP, and (insulting generalisation incoming) the sort of people who play team matches are generally the sort of people who argued for not fixing the glaring problems with bridge maps and fixing team resources, pop caps etc because they actually enjoy that style of play. I think these people are close to the lowest form of life.

So yeh, 1v1 VP CoH, Wehr vs Ami, no ToV units is pretty much the best RTS experience on offer. No word of a lie.

[Launders]

I only play ranked 1v1, because the game is a lame cheesefest in 2v2 3v3 etc. It doesn't help that half the 2v2 map pool is bridge maps that let you choke it down and turn the game into an arty party.

If you stick to 1v1 VP and the game is solid, apart from the niggling design problems on PE and Brit that force THEM to play cheese strats and everyone else to adopt cheese in return. I just veto Industrial Riverbed, the map with a huge bridge in the middle and Semois, depending on the rotation, in that order of priority.

As I said though, playing Annhilation on any bridge map is pretty much ticking a box prematch that says "I want to play a 2 hour arty party." I don't consider it a problem, because the game was designed for 1v1 VP, and (insulting generalisation incoming) the sort of people who play team matches are generally the sort of people who argued for not fixing the glaring problems with bridge maps and fixing team resources, pop caps etc because they actually enjoy that style of play. I think these people are close to the lowest form of life.

So yeh, 1v1 VP CoH, Wehr vs Ami, no ToV units is pretty much the best RTS experience on offer. No word of a lie.

When I do play a team match its usually an in house sort of thing with a few friends. I'm not some masochist who likes to watch his overpriced units blow up in a shitstorm of arty shells at the hands of someone I cant walk over and beat the **** out of. I totally agree though, 1v1 is the way to go, and Panzer Elite is admittedly, a guilty pleasure of mine.

[PzKw]

When I do play a team match its usually an in house sort of thing with a few friends. I'm not some masochist who likes to watch his overpriced units blow up in a shitstorm of arty shells at the hands of someone I cant walk over and beat the **** out of. I totally agree though, 1v1 is the way to go, and Panzer Elite is admittedly, a guilty pleasure of mine.

PE is a guilty pleasure of mine as well, but they make no sense and only have one viable early, mid and endgame strat, which is PG spam with counter vehicles.

[WiLd_LiF3]

I'm going to start this post off with a question. "If people get insta-gibbed by Monkey King pre-nerf, and complain, then why don't they complain when Pebbles does so?"

Let's look at the hero I liken to Monkey King the most in terms of damage output (Pre-Nerf), laning, and skill usage: Pebbles.

:pebb: Pebbles (At level 8, maxed out Q and W) does somewhere in the order of 900 damage, plus an auto attack that deals at least 80+. Effectively, this kills most people instantly.

:monk: Monkey King (At level 8, maxed out W and E) does somewhere in the order of 900+ damage, and a sub-par auto attack. The combo being used is "W+Shift E+Shift W".

Both Combos deal the same damage approximately, and are used in the same way with two abilities, while Monkey Kings take a little bit more time to input.

In a lane between Pebbles and Monkey King, pre-nerf, it was about who could land the combo first. Pebbles has the advantage with a ranged stun. Each combo cost almost the same amount of mana, (Pebbles costing 40 more, but with a 2 second stun).

This leads me back to my question, why was Monkey King's combo reworked when it did the same damage as Pebbles combo? He's an agility hero that did a combo, Fayde is like this aswell.

Monkey King's combo was fun to watch, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjkyAjyxZSQ (Skip ahead to 1.02)

TL;DR

Monkey King's Combo did the same as most other heros combos like Pebbles, Dampeer, and Fayde. So please, reinstate the combo, it was fun to watch. If you still don't agree with the damage, then nerf the damage on the combo, don't just utterly remove it. Thank you.

[Cyber_Kun]

Monkey King also carries much harder. Also has a lower cooldown on combo. Also is more mobile.

Yes, please give Monkey King as much burst as other heroes that are only known for burst, and give him as much carry also Chronos. Please?

[WiLd_LiF3]

Monkey King also carries much harder. Also has a lower cooldown on combo. Also is more mobile.

Yes, please give Monkey King as much burst as other heroes that are only known for burst, and give him as much carry also Chronos. Please?

He can't carry as hard as Chronos. He doesn't have any scaling abilities aside his Q, which scales rather mildly, unlike other heros. He was a Semi Carry that dominated early and mid game, and fell off late game like Pebbles.

[WiLd_LiF3]

He can't carry as hard as Chronos. He doesn't have any scaling abilities aside his Q, which scales rather mildly, unlike other heros. He was a Semi Carry that dominated early and mid game, and fell off late game like Pebbles.


They're are a lot of heros currently in game that have an early game advantage like Monkey King used to possess. For example, Midas does exceptional damage, has an escape, a good aoe stun, and heals allies in mass (Getting nerfed after a long time). Tremble has surviveability through mounds, and very powerful harass through his imaplers. Rampage has his natural tankiness, and his powerful E harassing tool (With powerfull ganks from charge). Gemini is just Gemini, needs hella nerfs.

[Cyber_Kun]

2.8 agi growth per level. Q allowing two attacks in AoE. The general mobilty on R. These are things that make him into a semi-carry.

[SirVH]

All I gotta say is: nomad with genjuro is so ****ing bullshit.

[Antimodus]

Yea, apparently Nomad wasn't bullshit enough with sol's and shieldbreaker so they needed to add Genjuro to the game as well.

It's quite expensive tho. and shroud isn't that great on him, after all, you're already supposed to get invis counters vs Nomad so the ordinary shroud doesn't actually offer much value to him until he finishes genjuro. and it's a 6300 gold item, mind you.

[WiLd_LiF3]

2.8 agi growth per level. Q allowing two attacks in AoE. The general mobilty on R. These are things that make him into a semi-carry.

Trust me, the mobility on R isn't all that great, sure, it helps you get around. But Pebbles can easily match Monkey King's Mobility with Striders, and later exceed it with Portal Key/Blink Dagger.

[WiLd_LiF3]

2.8 agi growth per level. Q allowing two attacks in AoE. The general mobilty on R. These are things that make him into a semi-carry.

You still don't get the point that a lot of heroes do his job better and have a STRONGER lane presence. Monkey King can't compete with a Nomad or Tremble in his current state. The Old combo damage would give him a chance. Also, Succubus just shits on him. Monkey King will always lose to a decent Succubus due to her unorthodox lane capability.

[skeloperch]

Don't forget that Pebbles will always be tankier/have more damage, because Pebbles. Really, Pebbles is probably just as OP as Midas, it's just that people are used to him. No hero should have 900 burst at 8 and also hit that hard.

Also, I think that the argument that MK scales harder than Pebbles is a joke. MK has to build mana, EHP, and damage. Pebbles doesn't need much mana past Blood Chalice, doesn't need EHP since he already has a shitton, and only need attack speed, which is ludicrously easy to get.

[WiLd_LiF3]

Don't forget that Pebbles will always be tankier/have more damage, because Pebbles. Really, Pebbles is probably just as OP as Midas, it's just that people are used to him. No hero should have 900 burst at 8 and also hit that hard.

Also, I think that the argument that MK scales harder than Pebbles is a joke. MK has to build mana, EHP, and damage. Pebbles doesn't need much mana past Blood Chalice, doesn't need EHP since he already has a shitton, and only need attack speed, which is ludicrously easy to get.

Wonderful points. Pebbles being a STR hero, gives him an advantage, and him building frostfield plate often is pretty much a dead give away Monkey King is falling behind even the oldest of heros.

[PzKw]

Furion is like a win button in DotA 2.

20 second CD global TP?

Ulti that adds at least 200 GPM?

It's damned near impossible to push mid and late game against him with even half decent wards and half a brain on Furion. And to boot, he can jungle, push, solo and dual lane respectably.

I'm not going to lie, KotF is a lobotomised version of him, and worse players can do better on KotF, but once you reach a negligible level of play, Furion becomes a joke.

I went 0 16 18 on Furion before, and still topped the GPM with 550, the next highest being 380 (playing SEA - 2 heroes would abstain from teamfights to ambush me on sidepushes and minimum 3 big ults, like SK and Axe would be used on me if I showed my face in a teamfight).

This hero's absurd. DotA 2 needs to bring on some more of the solo gankers ASAP, because the current hero pool doesn't cope with his devastating strat level antipush particularly well.

[Hsssh]

So how you exactly counter this 20cd port in dota1?

[GregerMoek]

With a 3sec cd Boots of Travel Tinker

[Launders]

^ and you counter that with doom

[GregerMoek]

Yeah. :P

[Hsssh]

New spotlight is out, gonna throw some zombies soon.

[Theengstrom]

:wild: is way to powerful in the lategame. I feel its not very uncommon for a good :wild: to be able to carry the whole team alone at the very end

[WiLd_LiF3]

:wild: is way to powerful in the lategame. I feel its not very uncommon for a good :wild: to be able to carry the whole team alone at the very end


MEGA DERP. HE NEEDS SO MUCH FARM THIS NEEDS TO BE BUFFED. LAWL.

But seriously, it's what hard carries are SUPPOSED to be able to do. It's the reason he's there.

[PzKw]

So how you exactly counter this 20cd port in dota1?
Ehh.

Tinker is only a mediocre counter, since they essentially do the same thing (keep all lanes pushed), but Furion does it better and fits into early game pushes better to open the space for it.

There are two main ways to beat a strat based around Furion: outcarry or crush him in the early-mid phase. There's only enough farm on the map for two people if you're running a Furion, since only he can really farm the pushed sidelanes, which only leaves the jungle.

Normally you'll see him picked up in between a harder carry, who he stops the other team from drawing out of farming to defend, and some kind of dominant early-mid hero like a Rhasta, who'll tide the team over with the two supports until the Furion can maintain map control on his own. If you can overmatch Furion's team in either of these areas, and come through the laning phase even or on top, you're in a decent position. It's a pain to push against him, but until he gets his second major item, he's a liability in teamfights, and even fully itemed out, real carries cum in his eye sockets 1v1.

That's on a strategic level.

On a tactical level, you basically can't unless you ambush him when he TPs. You see it happen now and again, team sits in smoke where they think Furion will TP, Furion TPs into the middle of 5 people.

[AsslessChaps]

Introducing a concept to reduce the amount of gold carries are able to accrue, delaying the "cold war" scenario postulated by PzKw and Anakha:

Heroes can no longer buy items into their stash when stunned / silenced. This would stop the buttonmash of item purchasing when a carry is being ganked, and will likely delay gold accumulation to stop the bomb from being built.

Thoughts?

[GregerMoek]

I don't think it would affect the overall game that much. Feels like a "meh" change.
I might be wrong but those are my thoughts on that.

[TRYTROUSERS]

Furion is like a win button in DotA 2.

20 second CD global TP?

Ulti that adds at least 200 GPM?

It's damned near impossible to push mid and late game against him with even half decent wards and half a brain on Furion. And to boot, he can jungle, push, solo and dual lane respectably.

I'm not going to lie, KotF is a lobotomised version of him, and worse players can do better on KotF, but once you reach a negligible level of play, Furion becomes a joke.

I went 0 16 18 on Furion before, and still topped the GPM with 550, the next highest being 380 (playing SEA - 2 heroes would abstain from teamfights to ambush me on sidepushes and minimum 3 big ults, like SK and Axe would be used on me if I showed my face in a teamfight).

This hero's absurd. DotA 2 needs to bring on some more of the solo gankers ASAP, because the current hero pool doesn't cope with his devastating strat level antipush particularly well.


a lot of things are really broken in dota 2 right now, mostly because the average beta tester is horrible. gondar = god dar when no one knows to buy wards dust or eye.

[PzKw]

Introducing a concept to reduce the amount of gold carries are able to accrue, delaying the "cold war" scenario postulated by PzKw and Anakha:

Heroes can no longer buy items into their stash when stunned / silenced. This would stop the buttonmash of item purchasing when a carry is being ganked, and will likely delay gold accumulation to stop the bomb from being built.

Thoughts?
I want more limits on which items you can crash buy. That was something that I never appreciated about moving the secret shop until I started playing DotA a bit more again and realised I'd grown accustomed to clutch buys of whatever I wanted.

More broadly, I want more mechanisms for shaping which heroes on the other team get gold. That's something DotA used to do quite well - you could actually control heroes' build-ups with kills...

[Hsssh]

Used to? As in it doesn't work in DotA anymore?

[Anakha]

Hasn't worked for a very long time now.

[XFlame]

Any of you interested in a DotA2 key? I have one left, might as well give it to one of the Balance Forum regulars.

On that note, DotA2 is mediocre and I prefer HoN a gazillion times over it.

[WiLd_LiF3]

Any of you interested in a DotA2 key? I have one left, might as well give it to one of the Balance Forum regulars.

On that note, DotA2 is mediocre and I prefer HoN a gazillion times over it.


I'll take it, my friend needs it!

[dandylion]

Any of you interested in a DotA2 key? I have one left, might as well give it to one of the Balance Forum regulars.

On that note, DotA2 is mediocre and I prefer HoN a gazillion times over it.

Agreed.

[Launders]

Any of you interested in a DotA2 key? I have one left, might as well give it to one of the Balance Forum regulars.

On that note, DotA2 is mediocre and I prefer HoN a gazillion times over it.

I'd be extremely grateful, my friend got a key the other day and now I have nobody to plan HoN with :/

[Hsssh]

Hasn't worked for a very long time now.

For similar reasons why it doesn't work in HoN or some other problematic things were implemented?

[Brannock]

On that note, DotA2 is mediocre and I prefer HoN a gazillion times over it.

I've spent about 80 hours on Dota2 and everything about the game just feels off. I can't describe it very well. It's like consistently playing with 350 ping in HoN, feels like you have to fight the engine to do what you want.

Valve's art team is amazing, but their animations are horrible. S2's art team is decent, passable really, but their animations really sell HoN for me. Everything feels great, meaty, like it's actually happening. Take :ramp: for example - on charge, he rears back, shouts, stampedes towards an enemy, then leaps and crushes their goddamn skull. It's incredibly satisfying. Barathrum's charge in Dota2 is stupid as all hell. He freezes still for the cast animation, then immediately cuts into a charge. When you hit a target - nothing happens. They just stand there for 1.5 seconds until Barathrum's attack animation kicks in and you swing slowly through your target. It's lazy and boring, and every time I've brought this up the Dota grognards scream THIS IS HOW IT WAS IN DOTA1! HOW DARE YOU CHANGE MY GAME, HONTARD!

Attack animations are also very poor in Dota2, so many of them feel extremely disjointed. Melee animations swing through the target, ranged animations are piddly as **** and look like creep animations. :deme: :vood: have great and satisfying animations, Dazzle and Witch Doctor feel like they just wave their hands and a tiny beam of energy shoots out. Piddly.

I really, really like Valve's art direction and I honestly think Dota2 balance is in a better spot right now than HoN's balance (though 6.73 seems to be pushing tanky dps as the new meta with all the hyperefficient midgame items - Dragon Knight and Skeleton King in particular benefiting disproportionately). The voice work is mindblowingly good, and the spectator system they have set up is revolutionary. The L4D AI is better at showing the game than any caster I've ever seen.

The prolbem is that Dota2 just feels like absolute **** to PLAY, which is what's important to me as an actual gamer. =\ HoN has its many flaws, but the game is amazingly responsive to controls and with feedback. When I click on the screen, I know something will happen right away without me having to wrestle the engine around it and force my hero to walk to that spot or cancel his animation.

When even League feels more responsive than Dota2 then you know something's wrong.

[Tupimus]

Dazzle is excused for being Dazzle. DAZZLAAYY

But yeah, Valve really needs to start making better animations. Doombringer gives me the chills.

Most of the voice acting is also poor (although there are some very brilliant exceptions). Take Pudge for example. Sniper Pudge is a nice reference to TF2, but honestly, he should sound like a near-mindless abomination, not like the calculating House of assassins.

[Hsssh]

I watched few casts/streams and as a spectator i didn't really enjoy it visually due to:
Size of creeps compared to some heroes, Venomancer IIRC was smaller than lane creeps.
Terrible animations. Lich's ulti hitting few people and nobody really understanding if it's his auto attacks or ulti. It wasn't that bad but you know that its close. I believe there is a middle ground between over the top HoN's style and making it underwhelming like Dota2.
Bad hero designs. Don't get me wrong, Slardar definitely looks awesome but compare him as a whole to Pestilence who "spreads his wings" and actually flies, impales you with bugs from underground or with his horn and sends small bugs to keep and eye on you and lower your armor. On the other hand we have awesome looking Slardar who waves his tail, splashes water and casts some fairy could thing. What? I understand that it was like this in Dota(probably) but for ****s sake, it was a mod of WC3 so things like this were tolerable while this is a brand new game with new engine.

[pechkin]

you saw ursa in dota 2? when he activate enrage, his 3d avatar in ui actually roars and rages and **** like that.

[Tedde]

you saw ursa in dota 2? when he activate enrage, his 3d avatar in ui actually roars and rages and **** like that.

When the game feels like syrup, that is not a deciding factor to me.

[skeloperch]

you saw ursa in dota 2? when he activate enrage, his 3d avatar in ui actually roars and rages and **** like that.

I play Ursa almost as much as I play Brood, and even he feels poorly designed. He's got a couple of good lines out of the entire package, whereas HoN heroes have maybe one or two bad lines. Quality > Quantity.

Besides, DOTA2 fails hard in the designs department. Storm Spirit and Puck especially feel underwhelming and boring, whereas Furion and Chen look derpy as all hell. The only designs that I actually like in DOTA2 over HoN are QoP over Hag, and Silencer over Vindicator. All of the other ones are crap, or don't make any sense. Why is Earth Shaker a wookie again?

But yeah, DOTA2 is the most imbalanced game in the genre so far because of lack of important counter heroes, but even then, it'll only be slightly better than LoL. IceFrog wants to balance upwards, S2 wants to keep the balance level the same. I don't want to even play a game where there are heroes with Sillyhat's W on a 4 second cd.

[XFlame]

I've spent about 80 hours on Dota2 and everything about the game just feels off. I can't describe it very well. It's like consistently playing with 350 ping in HoN, feels like you have to fight the engine to do what you want.

It's why I quit DotA2 after just a week of playing. I will never hate on Soul Reapers attack animation after trying out Necrolyte in DotA. It felt like you were trying to swim in

syrup

[Anakha]

Pretty much my thoughts on DotA2 as well.

[dandylion]

I've spent about 80 hours on Dota2 and everything about the game just feels off. I can't describe it very well. It's like consistently playing with 350 ping in HoN, feels like you have to fight the engine to do what you want.

Valve's art team is amazing, but their animations are horrible. S2's art team is decent, passable really, but their animations really sell HoN for me. Everything feels great, meaty, like it's actually happening. Take :ramp: for example - on charge, he rears back, shouts, stampedes towards an enemy, then leaps and crushes their goddamn skull. It's incredibly satisfying. Barathrum's charge in Dota2 is stupid as all hell. He freezes still for the cast animation, then immediately cuts into a charge. When you hit a target - nothing happens. They just stand there for 1.5 seconds until Barathrum's attack animation kicks in and you swing slowly through your target. It's lazy and boring, and every time I've brought this up the Dota grognards scream THIS IS HOW IT WAS IN DOTA1! HOW DARE YOU CHANGE MY GAME, HONTARD!

Attack animations are also very poor in Dota2, so many of them feel extremely disjointed. Melee animations swing through the target, ranged animations are piddly as **** and look like creep animations. :deme: :vood: have great and satisfying animations, Dazzle and Witch Doctor feel like they just wave their hands and a tiny beam of energy shoots out. Piddly.

I really, really like Valve's art direction and I honestly think Dota2 balance is in a better spot right now than HoN's balance (though 6.73 seems to be pushing tanky dps as the new meta with all the hyperefficient midgame items - Dragon Knight and Skeleton King in particular benefiting disproportionately). The voice work is mindblowingly good, and the spectator system they have set up is revolutionary. The L4D AI is better at showing the game than any caster I've ever seen.

The prolbem is that Dota2 just feels like absolute **** to PLAY, which is what's important to me as an actual gamer. =\ HoN has its many flaws, but the game is amazingly responsive to controls and with feedback. When I click on the screen, I know something will happen right away without me having to wrestle the engine around it and force my hero to walk to that spot or cancel his animation.

When even League feels more responsive than Dota2 then you know something's wrong.

This is absolutely how I feel about DOTA 2's play right now. The art is alright with me, but the edges of everything are so soft that it's sometimes difficult to determine where the end/begin and makes warding particularly tedious. I'm sure with time I would get used to it, but it's a far cry from the sharp edges in HoN, which I certainly prefer when it comes to terrain.

[Wisienkas]

Gemine needs a seriusly nerf

[Zilrax]

Aunt Gemima needs a nerf? Nooo, my pancakes!

[PzKw]

I think there's some rose tinted glasses between some of these posts and HoN... Some of the models and animations are pretty average in DotA 2, but they’re WIP and constantly being updated. HoN has some of the most hit and miss art assets I’ve ever seen – there are some first rate, amazing models, sounds and animations out there like DW and Fayde, but there are also some ****ing horrendous ones that shouldn’t have been allowed into a retail game like WB and the SR alt avatar, and there appear to be no plans to fix them. There are also still animations that outright don’t line up properly with their effects, like Defiler’s wave.

Some of this is true for DotA 2 as well. AA’s ulti has some amazing animations, likewise Skeleton King’s ulti, and the unit taunts and responses with each other are very well implemented (SK kills Mirana: “Bow before me!” – “I will… Never… Bow…”), but some animations don’t properly line up with abilities (Venomous Gale is horrible for this), and abilities have this horrible habit of dropping levels on cliffs and ramps in such a way that they appear to change direction. There are also some models that are too similar to each other (DK Silencer, urgh), and some animations that are very underdone (Mjollnir is barely noticeable, unless my graphics are just set too low).

The clunkiness is an engine problem which also existed in the other source games. It’s an unresponsive engine that syncs players badly to the game world. It’s the reason I hated CS: Source, DoD etc and can’t bare to play them for more than a few minutes. It’s also the reason I gave up on Dystopia, despite being a fantastic game. They’re also working on improving it. HoN has never gotten enough credit for the ground work on the engine, which is fantastic. HoN’s biggest problems have always been limiting itself to 20 frames/second which causes all manner of problems, and eternal problems with pathing, which to this day produce exploitable and ****ing stupid bugs.

The thing is, we’re all used to HoN’s flaws, and have adjusted. If you stopped playing HoN for a few months in favour of DotA 1 or 2, you’d come back and find the art style garish, and some of the bugs intolerable, the same way you find DotA unresponsive and dull. Honestly, I think it’s too early to call DotA 2, but there’s no question that there’s a lot of work to do.