Balance Dump

[Hsssh]

I think you should make a new Engi thread with those strong arguments.

[XFlame]

Didn't china once approve of a retarded thread just so people could have a laugh?

[Hsssh]

I remember something like that too, just can't remember about what hero it was.

[Skyve]

We should turn engineer into an Int hero, that way the non-dps hero can start building items that he couldn't before to boost his auto-attack, and it doesn't make sense for engi to get wards as long as he's agi, because agi = carry and int = support.

The only reason to make Engi an int hero is to reduce his agility gain by 0.7 and put that 0.7 onto his int gain.

:D

[PzKw]

We should turn engineer into an Int hero, that way the non-dps hero can start building items that he couldn't before to boost his auto-attack, and it doesn't make sense for engi to get wards as long as he's agi, because agi = carry and int = support.

Give this man a salary S2.

Because honestly, it's the next logical step.

Apart from Invoker...

[pewpewstar]

I have one more, STR = tank

[Juuto]

If Tanky Carries exist because of Burst Heroes, and we take care of Tanky Carries with Helm of the Black Legion nerfs... What will happen? Will tanky carries still be the main carries except this time they afk farm for longer? Or will S2 fully address the Burst heroes that are the problem too (nice joke, I know)?

I'm curious :(.

[Anakha]

If HotBL was somehow gutted beyond all recognition, you'd either see a resurgance of Icebrand tank carries, or the next most noticeable thing held in check by HotBL's existence currently - which could be any number of ****tarded things, considering how many really really bad design decisions that are underpinned by its existence at the strength it is at.

I'd hazard a guess at those being either Nullstone->Shieldbreaker/Savage Mace evasive DPS "semi"-carries (which are still ridiculously strong), or nil-to-kill gankers.

[Mediocre]

Atleast nullstone is over double the cost of hotbl, and we all know Hotbl is only good cause its so cheap (relative to its effectivness).

Icebrand could be a intresting pick-up instead of hotbl, would maybe hold people from buying shieldbreaker tho (which could be a good thing).

Also, I wouldnt see Zephyr or RA being to effective without hotbl. Cant really find another item of choice on those heroes.

[Alten]

There are other items that provide incredibly high health (and other stats) with cheap and easy build-up. Zeph and Ra don't need damage, just more tankiness to be effective. Some of these items have incredible synergy with their role....

[Connect]

When the **** are you people gonna nerf RA.. ****ing annoying seeing any trash player pick up RA and have full item by the 25 min.

[LegoPirate]

genjuro still insanely gay.

[Ekamo]

If HotBL was somehow gutted beyond all recognition, you'd either see a resurgance of Icebrand tank carries, or the next most noticeable thing held in check by HotBL's existence currently - which could be any number of ****tarded things, considering how many really really bad design decisions that are underpinned by its existence at the strength it is at.

I'd hazard a guess at those being either Nullstone->Shieldbreaker/Savage Mace evasive DPS "semi"-carries (which are still ridiculously strong), or nil-to-kill gankers.

(:flin::fors::valk::mast:)

Back to ranged carry meta game shall we?

[Anakha]

(:flin::fors::valk::mast:)

Back to ranged carry meta game shall we?

Took the words right out of my mouth~

[Anakha]

OH OH OH OH i have a new goal soon. Keep your eyes glued to the stat page. You know who you are.

[GregerMoek]

I think we need more sex in the game, it's not balanced when Arachna has to compete with Empath and Legionnaire.

[Skyve]

(:flin::fors::valk::mast:)

Back to ranged carry meta game shall we?

I honestly doubt that would happen. Magebane and Chronos for instance would probably just shift to getting Icebrand first - it's a good substitute for HotBL, and especially Chronos makes pretty good use of that.
Also we might end up seeing more Madman and TDL then - two carries that never even get HotBL.

[commy]

What's wrong with hotbl on madman.

[GregerMoek]

What's wrong with hotbl not being wrong on anyone.

[Skyve]

What's wrong with hotbl on madman.

The fact that you usually gain more out of a fast nullstone, and before that you get your Chalice/Bottle/PSupp/Steamboots combo anyways.

[china]

What's wrong with hotbl not being wrong on anyone.

Survivability is always good, that's why!

[Mjmacka]

When Zypher gets ulted by Parasite why doesn't he lose his cyclones?

[Ekamo]

When Zypher gets ulted by Parasite why doesn't he lose his cyclones?

Parasite with cyclones, what a sight! :D

[MadPsycho]

When Zypher gets ulted by Parasite why doesn't he lose his cyclones?

Because it's not a buff. Would be even funnier if he kept said cyclones when he jumps into a creep.

[xJoe]

Exact opposite really. I only really manage to beat her as Monkey King/Panda.

Monkey rapes anyone, even panda :P

[PzKw]

People are having a WoW argument.

Alliance is better!

No Hoard!

Fml...

[Alten]

No one really PLAYS WoW anymore, so....

[Launders]

When Zypher gets ulted by Parasite why doesn't he lose his cyclones?

I was playing Witch Slayer once, and a Parasite was mid-ult on a friend of mine. Before he made contact, I tried to hex Parasite, naturally, but since he was latched on at that moment, it was my friend who got hexed.

He goes "WHAT THE **** JUST HAPPENED?".

I pretended like I had no idea and just laughed.

[skeloperch]

I was playing Witch Slayer once, and a Parasite was mid-ult on a friend of mine. Before he made contact, I tried to hex Parasite, naturally, but since he was latched on at that moment, it was my friend who got hexed.

He goes "WHAT THE **** JUST HAPPENED?".

I pretended like I had no idea and just laughed.

Oh god, it's almost as good as when you smitten him mid jump, and he transfers it over to your Arachna, and she dies because she can no longer lifesteal thanks to no damage. So good.

[Juuto]

Okay gais. Since they released a pretty Martyr skin, I have come obsessed with the hero. From what I can tell, he's actually a really good hero or at least decent. What do you guys think?

[Reldnahc]

Okay gais. Since they released a pretty Martyr skin, I have come obsessed with the hero. From what I can tell, he's actually a really good hero or at least decent. What do you guys think?

My favorite support because I actually do better when I get harassed and clutch ults are the best. His third skill though needs a remake, it is just there...

Btw, I've become increasingly frustrated with every single abomination Nome put into the game.

[Juuto]

Psh. Nome ain't got **** on Magebane.

[Launders]

Oh god, it's almost as good as when you smitten him mid jump, and he transfers it over to your Arachna, and she dies because she can no longer lifesteal thanks to no damage. So good.

^_________________________________________________ _________^

[kidicarus`]

My favorite support because I actually do better when I get harassed and clutch ults are the best. His third skill though needs a remake, it is just there...

Btw, I've become increasingly frustrated with every single abomination Nome put into the game.

I really liked the idea behind Martyr, but his abilities are far too costly (mana + health or negative secondary effects) to play "safely" and require too many items to reach their greatest potential.

When someone like Dsham can heal more effectively, and potentially deal more damage, without the 20% current health cost and virtually even mana costs/cooldowns, it's not a great skill. Not to mention the secondary effect from it requires that you die, and that's poor design. Dsham also has higher int gain and starting int, and has generally better stat gains across the board.

I guess I'm saying Martyr is easily replaced with other support heroes in his current form and very little is lost, and much can typically be gained.

[Mediocre]

Okay gais. Since they released a pretty Martyr skin, I have come obsessed with the hero. From what I can tell, he's actually a really good hero or at least decent. What do you guys think?

Hes the worst hero in the game in my opinion.

Hard-support (baby sitter) that needs alot of farm?

I'd pick ANY other hard-support hero before martyr (demented/nymph/monarch/glaci ...).

[ShenziLaRue]

Hes the worst hero in the game in my opinion.

Hard-support (baby sitter) that needs alot of farm?.

agree. i dont like it when a support need carry like farm without any farming mech.

[kidicarus`]

Martyr's a retardedly strong early game harasser, with a very aggressive playstyle, but outside of laning, he can be quite fragile and easily ignored as long as you can interrupt his ultimate, or keep him low enough that his ultimate is useless.

[Jakks]

Mk is seriously the most unbalanced hero in history. His damage output on ONE of his spells is more than Witch slayers ulti at level 6 (500 dmg that is). And his escape-abilities are way too many. If he gets caught by a 5-man gank with a stunner, he just does his slam and then leaps away, leaving the entire team mini-stunned by the second stun from the slam. Or he just dashes through them (dashing through the snow, lalalalaaa).
Teaming Mk with either flux or ANY kind of slower/physical drag and you will have guaranteed victory at 15 min. That's just sick..

NERF THAT F-ING MONKEY! Or just complete remove him, either way i'll be happy.

[PzKw]

Martyr's problems stem from his heal being trash. Utter trash.

You can empically show that it's inferior to pretty much every heal in the game for most of the game in most situations, and the situations it's better in are rare and even then it's not better by much. Sure, it has an on death effect - we all know how well they work...

[XFlame]

Since when is Martyr supposed to be played as a hard support that babysits someone? Tbh I see him more as a solo laner that can destroy most other solo lanes while he gets some farm going, eventually supporting his team with game changing ults, heals and making sure the carry essentially gets twice the HP.

[PzKw]

You're overstating the impact Martyr has, as well as his ability to disrupt other solos. Other heroes bring more to both arenas, particularly because you could run a semicarry in the solo lane, and then you get twice the HP and damage output on your "carry".

It's not outside the realms of possiblity, but it's like... Why bother when there's a more reliable option than an extremely mediocre hero who requires farm which he gets relatively slowly to reach a relatively mediocre and unreliable peak?

[XFlame]

Then that's an issue of balance, not concept.

[Ekamo]

Since when is Martyr supposed to be played as a hard support that babysits someone? Tbh I see him more as a solo laner that can destroy most other solo lanes while he gets some farm going, eventually supporting his team with game changing ults, heals and making sure the carry essentially gets twice the HP.

This.

Who cares if his heal is utter thrash when three fourths of his abilities aren't? He's a beast in solo side lane and scales extremely well into the game. Calling him extremely mediocre seems extremely unfounded. Give him the chance to shine and I think he will.

[PzKw]

Then that's an issue of balance, not concept.

See.


Martyr's problems stem from his heal being trash. Utter trash.

You can empically show that it's inferior to pretty much every heal in the game for most of the game in most situations, and the situations it's better in are rare and even then it's not better by much. Sure, it has an on death effect - we all know how well they work...

Because honestly, what else are you sinking the farm into him for? (Continued below)


This.

Who cares if his heal is utter thrash when three fourths of his abilities aren't? He's a beast in solo side lane and scales extremely well into the game. Calling him extremely mediocre seems extremely unfounded. Give him the chance to shine and I think he will.

His orb nuke that is great at level 1, but by level 7 is starting to pale, quite apart from the fact that it doesn't let him do his job better, and doesn't tie in with any of his offensive options.

Which brings us on to Guardian. The thing about this is that a team pretty much gets the same utility out of it no matter what farm they've sunk onto Martyr, since the team benefits from him not being particularly close to the person he's got it on. Saying Martyr needs farm to use this effectively is like saying you need farm to make best use of Repel. Even just carrying pots makes more sense for a team than sinking 2200+boots onto Martyr so that he finds it easier to use this ability. The passive is great, don't get me wrong, but having a survivable person who doesn't do a whole lot doesn't add much to a team.

Finally. Ult. Situationally gamebreaking, but counterable, difficult to get the most use out of, and most importantly, doesn't scale with farm. There's nothing wrong with any of these things, but there is something wrong with it when you want to hog XP and gold over someone like a Torturer, or a PWP who could use the gold, the XP and even the lane way more effectively to do things for their team.

I really think it stems back to the heal, which is meant to be his scalar ability that ties the synergies of farming survivability items to the natural EHP on Guardian and the brinksmanship required to get much of anything out of Retribution to a means of actually exploiting the farm, rather than reaching base levels of proficiency with it.

If heal weren't trash, putting that farm of Martyr might be more justifiable because he might be able to actually have a significant impact on the game by virtue of the farm. As it stands right now, you'd be mad to spend the opportunity on him when so many better heroes exist for it...

[skeloperch]

Why are some heroes completely forgotten, balance dump? I mean, there are some heroes that don't suck enough to be renowned, like BH, some aren't easy enough to be renowned like EW, and some aren't strong enough to be in the spotlight. Heroes like Succubus, Moraxus, Cthulhu, Blacksmith, Gladiator, and TDL aren't ever in the spotlight. I mean, I hear about Moraxus once every 2 weeks or so. Back when he was released there was a bunch of hype about him being OP (not true), and then he died off. Succubus isn't even remembered by half of the community, and same with TDL. I'm not sure about Cthulhu, but I hear more about Parasite than him. Gladiator seems to have died off since MSI stopped tri-laning him, and Blacksmith just hasn't caught on since his OP days. What gives? Or am I mistaken, and just, by sure luck, end up not watching matches with them in them?

[Shadeward]

Why are some heroes completely forgotten, balance dump? I mean, there are some heroes that don't suck enough to be renowned, like BH, some aren't easy enough to be renowned like EW, and some aren't strong enough to be in the spotlight. Heroes like Succubus, Moraxus, Cthulhu, Blacksmith, Gladiator, and TDL aren't ever in the spotlight. I mean, I hear about Moraxus once every 2 weeks or so. Back when he was released there was a bunch of hype about him being OP (not true), and then he died off. Succubus isn't even remembered by half of the community, and same with TDL. I'm not sure about Cthulhu, but I hear more about Parasite than him. Gladiator seems to have died off since MSI stopped tri-laning him, and Blacksmith just hasn't caught on since his OP days. What gives? Or am I mistaken, and just, by sure luck, end up not watching matches with them in them?

Most of these heroes have are respectably balance compared to the power level the game is 'supposed' to be.

Cthulhu is pretty much the only I feel is actually quite powerful, but he's overshadowed by garbage like Ra, Kraken, Zephyr­.

[PzKw]

You don't see TDL because Fray isn't on honcast enough...

[HappyCup]

The main reason I quit this game for LoL/Dota 2 is the fact that S2 can NOT make a balanced hero to save their life. What is their problem? Why does every new hero need one ability to do 4 different things? Why aren't you comfortable with clear support/carry roles?

I never cared about the comp scene that LoL had, and even DOTA 2 is full of bugs right now but atleast both games balance frequently.

[skeloperch]

The main reason I quit this game for LoL/Dota 2 is the fact that S2 can NOT make a balanced hero to save their life. What is their problem? Why does every new hero need one ability to do 4 different things? Why aren't you comfortable with clear support/carry roles?

I never cared about the comp scene that LoL had, and even DOTA 2 is full of bugs right now but atleast both games balance frequently.

S2 balances heroes better than Riot/IF. Lolinvoker, LolVladimir

[Anakha]

^ pretty much.

[Shadeward]

S2 balances heroes better than Riot/IF. Lolinvoker, LolVladimir

Saying they balance better when the walking herpes that is Zephyr exists makes me giggle.

:/

[Anakha]

I'd much prefer Zephyr over Invoker, just saying.

[Shadeward]

I'd much prefer Zephyr over Invoker, just saying.

Honestly, I don't really mind Invoker that much. Other than that EMPnado turtle bullshit, he's manageable to deal with.

There's a lot of BS in Dota, but to say that S2 balances better, I find that very hard to understand.

[Hsssh]

Because honestly, what else are you sinking the farm into him for? (Continued below)

boots+pk+astro+heart turns him into a rather situational but effective hero.

[skeloperch]

Honestly, I don't really mind Invoker that much. Other than that EMPnado turtle bullshit, he's manageable to deal with.

There's a lot of BS in Dota, but to say that S2 balances better, I find that very hard to understand.

The only reason Zeph is good right now is because HotbL and healers are out of control. It's not Zeph that is OP, it is the stuff that enables him that is.

[Shadeward]

The only reason Zeph is good right now is because HotbL and healers are out of control. It's not Zeph that is OP, it is the stuff that enables him that is.

:sand:

[skeloperch]

:sand:

That's because S2 nerfed SW into the ground. I mean, he has 1 skill that isn't sub-par, and his stat gains are also pretty bad (compared to Arachna, Valkyrie, Flint, PM, and most any other carry). Not to mention the fact that they made illusions not have attack modifiers, and they lowered the duration of illusions, making mock rush even worse. Like, I can't go back to playing SW after playing Spectre. It's like living in Norway for a year and then moving to New Zealand.

[Hsssh]

Frankly i doubt that anyone really wants SW to be viable ever again baring some rework in his concept. Period when he was dominating games was one the gayest things to ever happen in HoN, current situation doesn't even compare.

[J3rk]

Can we rant about nomad and tremble now please?

[kidicarus`]

Saying they balance better when the walking herpes that is Zephyr exists makes me giggle.

:/

It's a little sad when your balance complaint revolves around Zephyr of all heroes.

[Hsssh]

Can we rant about nomad and tremble now please?

Nome is an idiot sums it up pretty well. Just read his blog about Nomad and Tremble being unfinished heroes, it's full of derp. Like how he hates one-shotting but gave Nomad crit and made it work with his charge. What were you expecting to happen there? That people won't try to make most out of his crit/charge combo?

[XFlame]

Will we see an appearance of Lord Salforis with the tanky metagame? His ult kinda sounds just what the doctor ordered.

[china]

Frankly i doubt that anyone really wants SW to be viable ever again baring some rework in his concept. Period when he was dominating games was one the gayest things to ever happen in HoN, current situation doesn't even compare.

Making his passive dispersion a 1:1 (20% of damage returned to the target who dealt the damage, not in an AoE), his passive bonus damage deal damage to any units affected/targeted by his dagger, and revamping to make his ult low CD and single target: a hero more easily balanced and suitable for aggression.

also, I think old-tdl was far gayer. global-can't-see-anything, anyone? hero is so underrated, even in its current state.

[Skyve]

Making his passive dispersion a 1:1 (20% of damage returned to the target who dealt the damage, not in an AoE)

Seems like it would ruin one major thing tht allows the hero to carry :/

Probably better if it was 20% reduction, 20% to attacker, 10% in AoE or smth like that.

[china]

Seems like it would ruin one major thing tht allows the hero to carry :/

Probably better if it was 20% reduction, 20% to attacker, 10% in AoE or smth like that.

nah, it's the fact that it reduces damage as well as reflecting it. 20% less damage from all sources? Reallllyyyy? It's why he's virtually untouchable with HotBL. Damage block, more HP, along with % reduced damage, then tree-walking.

He'll be ass-hard to kill, and his deserted will proc on anyone he's chasing after daggering them. Coupled with what could be a 60 or so second CD on a single-target ultimate, he could gank extremely well.

Not going to further expound on something I didn't mull over enough to guarantee that it's a good idea.

[Juuto]

S2 balances heroes better than Riot/IF. Lolinvoker, LolVladimir

That really is the depressing part rofl.

[Shadeward]

That's because S2 nerfed SW into the ground. I mean, he has 1 skill that isn't sub-par, and his stat gains are also pretty bad (compared to Arachna, Valkyrie, Flint, PM, and most any other carry). Not to mention the fact that they made illusions not have attack modifiers, and they lowered the duration of illusions, making mock rush even worse. Like, I can't go back to playing SW after playing Spectre. It's like living in Norway for a year and then moving to New Zealand.

???

I was merely presenting what my face looked like as I read your post.


It's a little sad when your balance complaint revolves around Zephyr of all heroes.

Is this serious?

There's a bunch of things that irks me, but Zephyr, Kraken, Ra and Elec are pretty much the most annoying of all things.

[Launders]

nah, it's the fact that it reduces damage as well as reflecting it. 20% less damage from all sources? Reallllyyyy? It's why he's virtually untouchable with HotBL. Damage block, more HP, along with % reduced damage, then tree-walking.

He'll be ass-hard to kill, and his deserted will proc on anyone he's chasing after daggering them. Coupled with what could be a 60 or so second CD on a single-target ultimate, he could gank extremely well.

Not going to further expound on something I didn't mull over enough to guarantee that it's a good idea.

This sums up why I hate Sand Wraith.

[skeloperch]

There's a bunch of things that irks me, but Zephyr, Kraken, Ra and Elec are pretty much the most annoying of all things.

They are, honestly, not as annoying as Valkyrie/Doctor Repulsor/MoA/Silly Hat/PM/Bubbles/WH.

[Shadeward]

They are, honestly, not as annoying as Valkyrie/Doctor Repulsor/MoA/Silly Hat/PM/Bubbles/WH.

No, they are more annoying than those by a mile.

At least, I know if I catch those with some disables I can kill them. The other ones, you can pretty much mail it in at 20 mins if you haven't managed to disturb them.

[skeloperch]

No, they are more annoying than those by a mile.

At least, I know if I catch those with some disables I can kill them. The other ones, you can pretty much mail it in at 20 mins if you haven't managed to disturb them.

Choose the former, get FWS, and kite the hell out of them. Also, Arachna.

[Shadeward]

Choose the former, get FWS, and kite the hell out of them. Also, Arachna.

So, the aforementioned heroes have no teams?

It's not a 1v1 here. The time it takes you to kite them to death is more than enough for their team to kill your whole team and come back to keep you in place.

Not to mention a 6k gold item isn't much of a remedy to fight against heroes who annihilate you and your team 15 mins in with 5k worth of items.

[Reldnahc]

nah, it's the fact that it reduces damage as well as reflecting it. 20% less damage from all sources? Reallllyyyy? It's why he's virtually untouchable with HotBL. Damage block, more HP, along with % reduced damage, then tree-walking.

He'll be ass-hard to kill, and his deserted will proc on anyone he's chasing after daggering them. Coupled with what could be a 60 or so second CD on a single-target ultimate, he could gank extremely well.

Not going to further expound on something I didn't mull over enough to guarantee that it's a good idea.

I get why everyone hates Dispersion when facing SW but my hate stems from the fact that he's so damn hard to gank. Team fight mid, hurr I'm SW farming top/bot and I can immediately tp in with no downtime on farm. Hurr, you're coming to get me? Everythingwalking On! Mirage to an unsuspecting hero not part of the gank and walk away! He doesn't farm harder, he farms longer. They should just give him a turtle shell alt avatar because he's the embodiment of the turtling metagame.

[kidicarus`]

There's a bunch of things that irks me, but Zephyr, Kraken, Ra and Elec are pretty much the most annoying of all things.

Annoying does not equate to imbalanced. I personally find very little difficulty in handling Zephyr. I don't recall there being a thread here in the forums about Zephyr for some time. The last Zephyr thread was in 2.2.1 and had a whopping 7 posts, where everyone but the OP said he was fine. The last serious post ended in August of this year, and nearly everyone posting felt he was UNDERPOWERED if anything.

Just saying, you won't find allies in your Zephyr rage here, and the general consensus seems to be that he's a manageable hero.

[phiz]

Rampage needs a serious rework. I shouldn't have to begin to explain this. He should not be able to continuously auto attack while his enemy is being pushed back by his 3rd skill. It allows him to pump out 2 extra auto-attacks while the other player has no possible way of returning fire or attempting to escape. In the early game just a simple pushback proc along with auto attacking can equate to an easy 300+ damage, and he still has his other skills to utilize for the finishing touch. Maybe a simple stats nerf might do the trick, otherwise i suggest revamping his 3rd skill.

[Juuto]

Annoying does not equate to imbalanced. I personally find very little difficulty in handling Zephyr. I don't recall there being a thread here in the forums about Zephyr for some time. The last Zephyr thread was in 2.2.1 and had a whopping 7 posts, where everyone but the OP said he was fine. The last serious post ended in August of this year, and nearly everyone posting felt he was UNDERPOWERED if anything.

Just saying, you won't find allies in your Zephyr rage here, and the general consensus seems to be that he's a manageable hero.

You missed the FWS nerfs and the fact that everything favors tanky carries.

[skeloperch]

Rampage needs a serious rework. I shouldn't have to begin to explain this. He should not be able to continuously auto attack while his enemy is being pushed back by his 3rd skill. It allows him to pump out 2 extra auto-attacks while the other player has no possible way of returning fire or attempting to escape. In the early game just a simple pushback proc along with auto attacking can equate to an easy 300+ damage, and he still has his other skills to utilize for the finishing touch. Maybe a simple stats nerf might do the trick, otherwise i suggest revamping his 3rd skill.

You is stupid. Not being able to fight someone back who is attacking you? Well, I guess that :blac: :chip: :swif: :behe: :mart: :poll: :magm: :gaun: :gemi: :engi: :succ: :arma: :plag: :myrm: :fayd: :witc: :cthu: :elec: :emer: :arac: :phar: :mora: :bubb: :pest: :drun: :soulr: :vood: :flux: are OP then.

[phiz]

In other terms, he's the highest single damage output without retaliation considering his lengthy and repeatable pushback skills.

Coupled with any other hero a competent rampage can dominate a lane through simple ck/cd advantages and continuous auto-attack pushback.

[skeloperch]

In other terms, he's the highest single damage output without retaliation considering his lengthy and repeatable pushback skills.

Coupled with any other hero a competent rampage can dominate a lane through simple ck/cd advantages and continuous auto-attack pushback.

Rampage deals most of his damage through auto attacks. You know what than means? HotbL, armor, and etc. And no, Rampage doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as other single-target monstrosities, like :para: :bloo: :blac: :pest: :drun: :gaun: :succ: and :lord:.

[skeloperch]

1337 is claimed in the name of Skeloperch!

[Haruhi_sos]

I think that for Rampage, that the target being charged should have an indicator at 2000/2500 range like it did the past. I also think that in this range is only when invis units become revealed. It's so stupid when a Rampage at his base, in his pool, is able to help ganking when he's not even there

[phiz]

The key words were "without retaliation". Basically he can output his huge damage capability with minimal fear of being stopped by the person who's targeted.

On the other hand some of the heroes you mentioned above don't have the tanking potential that rampage does, and the latter have a break between their skill usage and in that time they are able to be stunned or silenced preventing them from obtaining the kill.

[Juuto]

I don't think I can take another game of RA. xxoo

[skeloperch]

The key words were "without retaliation". Basically he can output his huge damage capability with minimal fear of being stopped by the person who's targeted.

On the other hand some of the heroes you mentioned above don't have the tanking potential that rampage does, and the latter have a break between their skill usage and in that time they are able to be stunned or silenced preventing them from obtaining the kill.

DM, Parasite, Pestilence, Monkey King, DW, Gauntlet, Behemoth, Tundra, Pollywog Priest, etc. etc.

[changlingbob]

Rampage is only good if piloted by a good player in bad pub games. If you hate rampage and someone picks him, don't be solo, place plenty of wards and pick something with stuns for when your lane partner gets hit by him. Don't blow your stuns while he's charging, wait until he's done the leap then just kill him. NB: this requires someone to actually buy and place wards, so if don't pick a carry and pick a good support. This may be the thing you are struggling with.

[Hsssh]

"- Last Word now functions while Silencer is stunned/silenced"

Awesome.

[Alten]

The DotA balance patch was ridiculous in so many ways.



"Hurrrr, let's make a Guinsoo's for carries that has bash!"

The only thing that keeps this item in check is the Ancient Relic component. :/

[Ekamo]

Sven starts to resemblance Hammerstorm more and more...

[Hsssh]

Serious question. Why the **** courier was changed like that? I can somewhat understand that invincibility was removed so that it would be harder to scout out lanes with him and block neutrals but whole items being returned after 3 minutes is just full of derp to me.

And yea, i think i prefer super assassin's shroud to super brutalizer.

[skeloperch]

Oh god, all 4 new DotA heroes are completely ****, and what is with Ice Frog and stealing skills? That Goblin fag has Silhoutte's grapple, Tresdin has Poppy's ultimate from LoL, Xin has a cross between MM's Barrel Roll and TDL's charging strikes, and the Sky mage fag has Chipper's shield + DoT.

Also, Ursa buffs are delicious, and Axe still sucks ass. Riki got a huge buff. Bloodseeker is still ass. Abaddon got a huge buff. Mirana got a huge buff (ffs). Necro got huge buffs, Tiny got a nice buff *wasn't needed*. Bristle Back got tiny buffs. Bane Elemental now has amazing starting stats. Doom, Clinkz, and Davion buffs are retarded.

TLDR: Icefrog's heroes are even more imba than S2 heroes.

[Tupimus]

Oh god, all 4 new DotA heroes are completely ****, and what is with Ice Frog and stealing skills? That Goblin fag has Silhoutte's grapple, Tresdin has Poppy's ultimate from LoL, Xin has a cross between MM's Barrel Roll and TDL's charging strikes, and the Sky mage fag has Chipper's shield + DoT.

Also, Ursa buffs are delicious, and Axe still sucks ass. Riki got a huge buff. Bloodseeker is still ass. Abaddon got a huge buff. Mirana got a huge buff (ffs). Necro got huge buffs, Tiny got a nice buff *wasn't needed*. Bristle Back got tiny buffs. Bane Elemental now has amazing starting stats. Doom, Clinkz, and Davion buffs are retarded.

TLDR: Icefrog's heroes are even more imba than S2 heroes.
Morphling...

Icefrog seems to be hellbent on making DotA into HARD GAY LoL.

[Launders]

The range on Davions stun was the only thing keeping that spell in check and I almost spit out my water when I saw that change.

[Alten]

Oh god, all 4 new DotA heroes are completely ****, and what is with Ice Frog and stealing skills? That Goblin fag has Silhoutte's grapple, Tresdin has Poppy's ultimate from LoL, Xin has a cross between MM's Barrel Roll and TDL's charging strikes, and the Sky mage fag has Chipper's shield + DoT.

Also, Ursa buffs are delicious, and Axe still sucks ass. Riki got a huge buff. Bloodseeker is still ass. Abaddon got a huge buff. Mirana got a huge buff (ffs). Necro got huge buffs, Tiny got a nice buff *wasn't needed*. Bristle Back got tiny buffs. Bane Elemental now has amazing starting stats. Doom, Clinkz, and Davion buffs are retarded.

TLDR: Icefrog's heroes are even more imba than S2 heroes.


You're forgetting that the Sky Mage also has (essentially) Warden's wolves and silence. The fog component is honestly the only real difference between the wolves and the balls.

[man_guy]

Serious question. Why the **** courier was changed like that? I can somewhat understand that invincibility was removed so that it would be harder to scout out lanes with him and block neutrals but whole items being returned after 3 minutes is just full of derp to me.
So late game secret shop courier snipes don't immediately end the game? As to early game, removing the shield ofc removes scouting / creep wave manipulation.

[Alten]

So late game secret shop courier snipes don't immediately end the game? As to early game, removing the shield ofc removes scouting / creep wave manipulation.


Competent players would always simply shield the cour as it approaches the shop, though.


The early game scouting/manipulation reduction was a good change, though.

[_Snow]

Seriously, Gemini is incredibly broken. Like, beyond belief.

[Hsssh]

PzKw got his question answered by xander, what a lucky guy.

[Mediocre]

The DotA balance patch was ridiculous in so many ways.



"Hurrrr, let's make a Guinsoo's for carries that has bash!"

The only thing that keeps this item in check is the Ancient Relic component. :/

60 sec CD, 150 mana for a 2 second stun, still alot worse than guinsoo. Yet, i dont think its a good thing to make a siituational pick-up (such as basher) into a useful upgrade.

[Haruhi_sos]

Kraken ------------------------- -S2 Hero -Higher movement speed -Escape Mechanism -2 Stuns -2 Slows Huge AOE -Ulti is like a non chanelling Tempest Elemental Void because it's superior magic. Anyone caught in it without a blink will be pulled towards its centre where they will be stunned and nuked for even further damage. Because you'll be too busy trying to escape it with the reduced movement speed, you'd be too busy to fight back. -Passive farming ability -DPS Tank -Very strong early game -Strong mid game -Strong late game Why does this hero have so much? I know he received a minor nerf from starting armour, but I still think he's too strong the way he is right now. PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS HERO!!

[Cencenlol]

WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH GEMINI?

It has more health than most of strength carry, with 4+ armor, the wolves never run oom, and the hero is basically unkillable unless chained with 5 stuns

**** you S2, **** you.

[XFlame]

I kinda like the changes to Necrolyte. But I never played DotA before so I'm probably retarded for liking them.

[Alten]

60 sec CD, 150 mana for a 2 second stun, still alot worse than guinsoo. Yet, i dont think its a good thing to make a siituational pick-up (such as basher) into a useful upgrade.

It works on magic immune units, though, and the natural bash component is also physically based. Now almost every melee carry will get it, and acquire significant disabling ability. Giving a carry significant disabling ability is NOT a good idea, and must generally be compensated by not giving that carry unsituational/good steroids (PM, Chronos, etc.).


Again; the only thing that will keep this thing somewhat in check is the high price.

[KeepStay]

guys, can someone tell me: why tb is so bad this days?

350 m.dmg nuke with 7 seconds cd, 700 range - so worthless
1.54 armor
295 ms
41-49 dmg
awful stats gain
nerf'ed passive

really love this hero, but its impossible to win mid and do proper gangs...

even nomad with hatchet win "lasthit" fight at middle, and doing much more haras on u, is it joke?

[Skyve]

TB doesn't have much over Bombardier, but gets outclassed in some areas (AoE damage/farming).
And since Bomb is primarily useful as a midlane solo, you won't see much of TB either.

[Hsssh]

Dota buffed him so his passive damages creeps, in other words made him better farmer/pusher. Power Creep is marching on.

[china]

lol.. sven's changes basically 1:1 of hon's...

[Anakha]

TB is inferior because he is outshone in almost every possible realistic way by Bombardier, on top of Bomb flashfarming much better, having more reliable static damage, a better laning phase, and is not soft-countered by Nullstone.

[Hsssh]

lol.. sven's changes basically 1:1 of hon's...

I heard someone saying that Hon stole it from dota.

[PzKw]

Honestly, that's a tough argument to make, because it's an intuitive buff to make. I think it's convergent design, it was probably in a beta build for both before it went public for either, and I doubt it was malicious...

[china]

I think it's convergent design, it was probably in a beta build for both before it went public for either, and I doubt it was malicious...

beta build? things get play-tested for a week before they get pushed through.

at least those hammerstorm changes were. it was pretty fast - as were most changes in beta.

[Alten]

It's just convergent design. Some changes and implementations are so sensible that they will always be eventually placed into a game. Many of the heroes across LoL, DotA, and HoN have similar abilities, for instance. It's unreasonable to state that each developer is actively copying from eachother (except for DotA to HoN, but that is no longer occurring); many ideas are simply a part of basic human thought processes, and extensions of these ideas in a creative aspect tend to engender similar creations.

[Anakha]

The Hammerstorm cleave changes were made completely independent of any kind of pending dota changes. Mostly stemmed from a discussion about how cleave sucks in hon compared to dota as a mechanic.

[Alten]

Oh my god.... You acquired a new icon. O.o


This is going to take some getting used to.

[Mediocre]

Oh my god.... You acquired a new icon. O.o


This is going to take some getting used to.

It stares into my soul.





Make it stop...

[Anakha]

You've got to press it on you~
You just think it~
That's what you do, baby~
Hold it down, DARE~

[Mediocre]

Ahhh


So its a cartoon from Gorillaz? I should have known.

[Anakha]

Yeah, was either a cropped version of this scene (http://sentientsec.org/~anakha/noodle.png) or this one (http://sentientsec.org/~anakha/russel2.png). I like this one though.

[PzKw]

beta build? things get play-tested for a week before they get pushed through.

at least those hammerstorm changes were. it was pretty fast - as were most changes in beta.

DotA has a much longer beta cycle... There's a good chance it was being tested as much as months ago.

[china]

Maybe it's because I detest the idea of 'converging' design. Things can only converge if they are similar, and I would venture to say both games are so dissimilar that you can consider each their own entity at this point.

It's certainly not 'converging' design if they could have done to Sven what they did with Magnataur. There's also so many more creative routes, such as making God Strength a state for X number of hits on a low cooldown, etc.

I don't believe in that 'converging' design stuff. I would if they games were the same or bubbles existed.

(Note: I think it would be silly to believe that there's zero staff on either side eyeing the other game and what changes are made. I can tell you for sure that any remotely wise company keeps tabs on its competitors. This leads me to think, yes, they're aware.)

[Tedde]

beta build? things get play-tested for a week before they get pushed through.

at least those hammerstorm changes were. it was pretty fast - as were most changes in beta.

I can tell you that things have been tested a lot longer since they slowed down hero releases to every 3 weeks :)

[china]

I can tell you that things have been tested a lot longer since they slowed down hero releases to every 3 weeks :)

Poll: Balance was better in beta, y/n?

[Alten]

Well... We had that really broken Chronos, and Magmus with a stun long enough for him to channel his ult -- there was, of course, the old Fayde... And the Engineer, who could essentially annihilate a team with his turret once he got Charged Hammer/Savage Mace/etc....

[Launders]

Dont forget FA's manaburn skeletons

[CrimsonAdder]

and Magmus with a stun long enough for him to channel his ult
The armor... Don't forget the fist****ingly high base starting armor...

[Skyve]

Dont forget FA's manaburn skeletons

+ DoT

Also Madman with Magmus' stun. MQ with orbstacking and orbs on each bounce iirc. Keeper with Deadwoods tree carrying ability. Keeper with armor that worked on towers (which healed them). Succubus with 100 mana ultimate cost.

[skeloperch]

+ DoT

Also Madman with Magmus' stun. MQ with orbstacking and orbs on each bounce iirc. Keeper with Deadwoods tree carrying ability. Keeper with armor that worked on towers (which healed them). Succubus with 100 mana ultimate cost.

PR ult with splash, Electrician with 320 base ms, SB critting with counter-attacks, and Malicrit.

[GregerMoek]

Why was it bad to be able to put keeper armour on towers?

[Alten]

It wasn't, really.

[PzKw]

It wasn't, and kotf could do it forever and a bit....

[Skyve]

Why was it bad to be able to put keeper armour on towers?

It wasn't really bad, just interesting :)

[CrimsonAdder]

Why was it bad to be able to put keeper armour on towers?
Well I think it was a faggot strategy employed by people who couldn't deal with strong pushing lineups otherwise.

[Brannock]

Amun-Ra's Q is completely unacceptable, the hero is completely unacceptable, when is he getting a severe nerf?

:rage:

[ElementUser]

Amun-Ra's Q is completely unacceptable, the hero is completely unacceptable, when is he getting a severe nerf?

:rage:

Never.

Blame Nome for leaving S2!

:amun:

[Ekamo]

Amun-Ra's Q is completely unacceptable, the hero is completely unacceptable, when is he getting a severe nerf?

:rage:

Of all retarded things with that hero, you choose his Q???

Not sure if you're serious or not.

[Anakha]

I'd say his Q is one of the more outstanding retarded things on that hero. It's basically a free 320 aoe nuke with a 1sec stun, and a deceptively large area.


Poll: Balance was better in beta, y/n?

dem rose-tinted glasses.

[Hsssh]

Well it could always go back to how it was on release when nobody managed to hit it.

[XFlame]

PR ult with splash, Electrician with 320 base ms, SB critting with counter-attacks, and Malicrit.
Also Puppet Master critting on his splash with Riftshards, and Chronos' ult not freezing his teammates.

[china]

Well... We had that really broken Chronos, and Magmus with a stun long enough for him to channel his ult -- there was, of course, the old Fayde... And the Engineer, who could essentially annihilate a team with his turret once he got Charged Hammer/Savage Mace/etc....

I think maybe a couple of those were broken in any version of HoN. Now we have the silliness of bulwark-DPS, vanguard-DPS, a staggered desolator (which I still think was/is a bad idea), Genjuro (joke item thats only good because of all the stats in one slot), and all the heroes that can clear creep waves pretty much instantaneously.

All of the mentioned bits were obvious issues that inevitably got fixed. But the current issues? Intended.

[Reldnahc]

Of all retarded things with that hero, you choose his Q???

Not sure if you're serious or not.

I would agree that his Q is a major contributor to what makes him broken. When it was facing direction rather than targeted, it was much harder to land. Now it is so much harder to dodge and can easily be used to scale terrain.

Not to mention that the health cost was reduced and he doesn't really use mana. The hero is just a giant can of worms that was opened.

[china]

Also, its pretty much a given Magmus/Plague. Keeper with tree-ability wasn't strong at all. Keeper armor on towers was broken?

I could count on both hands the severe issues that were present in beta in its meager competitive scene.

Engineer turret.
FA skeletons.
Fayde.
Chronos immediately after S2 decided he needed to get remade (for some absurd reason?)
Puppet (in general, not just crit stack, or harkons + LL)

Oh yes, and DotA-bloodstone, if I recall.

So I'm the only one that thinks that huh? :(

[Hsssh]

Chronos immediately after S2 decided he needed to get remade (for some absurd reason?)

Not sure what is absurd about trying to fix a broken design.

Also you're in essence comparing broken heroes with items that you don't like.

[GregerMoek]

Well I think it was a faggot strategy employed by people who couldn't deal with strong pushing lineups otherwise.

Wouldn't help that much against a "strong pushing lineup", besides, counter strategies aren't bad for the game, and one skill can barely be called a strategy.

If you are a strong push lineup you'll push again before the tower has regenerated 100hp unless you're ****ing retarded. Moreover 300hp on a tower isn't gonna ruin the pushing anyways. It's a small bonus and surely helps, however I think the skill would be stronger against something which isn't heavy push.

Are you saying you played strong push and failed because of keeper? :Genjuro:

[changlingbob]

Also you're in essence comparing broken heroes with items that you don't like.

oh so you've met china then

[china]

Not sure what is absurd about trying to fix a broken design.

Broken design? Old rewind and bash were broken design?

I've harped on it before, but let me do it again. Design and balance, while both can be objectified to some extent, are largely subjective as well as inseparable.

What they did when they remade Chronos was create an issue from what was basically a non-issue. Why? Well, lets look at Tablet and Eul's, which are both huge counters to Chronos. Guess what happened in DotA? They buffed Void (Tablet unusable on units in Ult). But S2? Remakes Void, makes him incredibly broken, then nerfs him into the ground leaving him with the scars of a terrible Rewind and heavily nerfed Bash. (Anecdotal note: I remember seeing Void played by Yamateh (Yaphets?), and he was largely a nonfactor, even with good ultimates.)

It's the same thing with wards. S2 took ward stacks and singled them out, which created the an issue that was further compounded by free courier, which they had to inevitably bandage with an initial delay to blue wards early-game.



Also you're in essence comparing broken heroes with items that you don't like.What I don't like happens to be in line with what a lot of competitive players don't like. When you encounter vanguard-DPS like Zephyr or Kraken, you're facing essentially the same issue that was faced back in beta with old SW, except at the 10 minute phase of the game. If you don't kill him, he'll do insane amounts of damage. If you do kill him, it'll take too many resources to do, and as a result, you lose the fight. That's what happened in the era of Bristle/Mercurial. Toss in heroes like Tremble/Ra (and especially Zephyr since he can heal once, ult, then heal again) and you have a bad brew. You can't simply get a vanguard on Glad/Kunkka, or a vanguard on Chronos and expect to succeed - the damage isn't there, as it needs to be supplemented by items. Then there's the kiteability (lets not forget the viability of old vanguard on ranged heroes)

What's more, there's even more incentive to have tanky-dps carries due to the presence of high-damage nukes. There's no point in stacking 12k gold on a Flint if he faints in the face of a blink stun/hex.

I can go and write an essay on the issue of timing with an item like vanguard. If the timing is right (see: sub 10), the team can force fights, or alternatively, farm without recourse. Hell, this post isn't even as succinct as it could be, since I'm just babbling as I go along.

Continuing:

Why should Bulwark aura (iirc) grant assists?

Genjuro is a bad solution because there is no problem that the item solves. Lack of upgrade for Shroud? Shroud is already a niche item on x or y hero.

Why was sb staggered? Why was sb weak to begin with? (See: Frostburn -> Skadi) Why did S2 make it, essentially, the best orb in the game, shifting the balance from a heavy slow that punishes melee to a heavy dps that punishes everything, and an item that succeeds especially on agi carries with escapes (see: Valkyrie/Silhouette).

Instead of making late-game items pertinent through staggering in the early-game (see: shieldbreaker/bulwark bought in 12~ minutes every game), why not make early-into-midgame items, that drop off in value but augment support heroes? Why create a selfish item like Locket? So you can have it function as a component for another late-game item? (See: Sacrificial Stone).

joke.

If I had it my way, SB wouldn't be staggered, simply buffed from -6 to -8 and increased duration, maybe reduced recipe cost. Instead of making mid-into-late-game effects accessible in the early-into-mid-game, I'd make items accessible to the vast majority of heroes in the 200-1.8k range with dualistic effects (see: powerful debuffs or effects with large cost ), or consumable items with powerful effects but large cooldowns. I'd return bottle-ferrying with 2/3rd charges, make courier cost gold again. Bound eye would be equivalent to a doombringer, dropping on death, indestructible, and in the game permanently, with only one per team (Hello crow-carrying-gem). There'd be an defensive HP/armor bubble rune. Heroes wouldn't have frivolously large cooldowns (See Hammerstorm's Galvanize, unless S2 has finally decided to listen to me). Only select heroes will be able to one-shot creep waves. Bloodhunter's ultimate would actually trigger on movement-based spells (Tablet, Valk leap, kraken Charge, TDL charge, etc.), which has been an issue since beta. Spellshards would be a moderate-cost item that removes target-MA, instead of a staggered moderate-high cost item valuable only to the hero using it (See: how to make items team-oriented).

But then again, that's my opinion. The same opinion that said creep gold values should be static, which echoed the thoughts of 99% of other people in the competitors forum. But S2 said it takes away some flavor from the game. Because we get excited when we see different numerals pop up. The same opinion that mattered for dozens of changes and implementations. The same opinion that over and over again echoed the thoughts of competitors 90% of the time, and who contributed more in way of analysis and opinion than anyone else.

The same guy who got kicked from the private forums because I flamed S2 and essentially called them dumpsters. Who was also the same guy that Nome largely agreed with on many things - you know, the guy who inevitably left for reasons he will not disclose.

Jk, he thought they were dumpsters too. Not all S2 are bad. Some of the S2 I know recognize that some other S2 are bad though. It's the way of any business. There's bad apples everywhere, and always there are some people who really [I]really shouldn't be an influential factor in anything.

Don't get me wrong. The game is fun - better than DotA 2. But (barring the recent DotA 2 patch) more balanced? Probably not.

/rant. back to debugging archaic js.

[Mediocre]

Nome made some of the most troublesome heroes in the game. But from what I read in a thread on reddit, where nome and pudding answered questions, he said that some of the heroes he made came out to early, un-finnished, and he would have wanted changes on them.

He proposed some changes to EW and Nomad (for instance) that sounded pretty good.

[Hsssh]

Not really in the mood, so i'll keep this short.


Broken design? Old rewind and bash were broken design?

I've harped on it before, but let me do it again. Design and balance, while both can be objectified to some extent, are largely subjective as well as inseparable.

What they did when they remade Chronos was create an issue from what was basically a non-issue. Why? Well, lets look at Tablet and Eul's, which are both huge counters to Chronos. Guess what happened in DotA? They buffed Void (Tablet unusable on units in Ult). But S2? Remakes Void, makes him incredibly broken, then nerfs him into the ground leaving him with the scars of a terrible Rewind and heavily nerfed Bash. (Anecdotal note: I remember seeing Void played by Yamateh (Yaphets?), and he was largely a nonfactor, even with good ultimates.)

Not sure what to even say. I gave a reason why Chronos needed rework and thats about it, was it instant hit? No it wasn't nor did i say anything like that.


What I don't like happens to be in line with what a lot of competitive players don't like.

Cool, comparing broken heroes with items that competitors don't like. Doesn't change much.


Why should Bulwark aura (iirc) grant assists?

Sounds like a bug.


Genjuro is a bad solution because there is no problem that the item solves. Lack of upgrade for Shroud? Shroud is already a niche item on x or y hero.

So having bad item that is barely good due to stats it provides somehow makes balance worse? If nobody buys it then what ch


Why was sb weak to begin with?

I guess because nobody bought it. In dota it also was buffed by being able to reduce armor of towers and in latest patch price went down by 300. If nobody buys it in both games then maybe it isn't good?

[ElementUser]

But......china I like the new Shieldbreaker!

It's finally seeing some use now :P.

On a serious note, the negative armor has a diminishing effect in terms of damage coefficient so that's why it used to be considered an "inferior orb" - because it was only good early/mid and tapered off very fast late-game. Now you can have the effect quite early.

I don't know if it's "balanced" or not, but from a mechanics point of view it is certainly better designed to fit the game with the current "staggered" recipe.

[china]

Did you not see my hint? SB was weak because other orbs were better. Its easy enough to put SB in any lineup with armor reduction. SB is not only good mid-game if you have simply a Pestilence or Andro in your lineup.

I'm not going to further expound my point. Fact is, game balance could be leaps and bounds better. You shouldn't implement **** that doesn't increase the depth of the game, a la genjuro. The game should be balanced and built upon its competitive scene, because players constantly improve and will nevertheless veer closer to that pinnacle.

In short, I think you're not worth my time responding to. cya.

[Cyber_Kun]

You think Nome has a good idea about balance, so I honestly don't see why we should care if you ignore any of us.

[Alten]

Game Master indirectly stating Nome is bad at balancing?! Blasphemy!

[Hsssh]

tldr; i dislike the direction that game is going so balance is worse.

[skeloperch]

I dunno China, I quite like where this game is heading (with the exception of Grave Locket, Shadow Blade, and Gemini). Staggering SB was my idea to begin with. My reasoning is that it was too expensive for what it offered, and it still is worse than it's DotA counter part. You're paying for pure damage. It is one of the few complete items in game that doesn't add survivablity (the others being Elder Parasite, Thunder Claw, Doom Bringer and Codex, all of which are rarely, if ever, picked up). It is good to have a pure dps item in game, as it DOES add depth. If you think about it, why blow a little over 2000 gold early on for Shield Breaker? Why not buy a Bulwark, or an Insanitarius, or a Icebrand? The only answer is that it is a direct counter to HotbL (which is too strong, but I do concede the point that SB direct countering HotbL is stupid). If you took away the ignoring block tidbit, SB would be completely fine.

Also, lol at your point of Flint having spent 12k gold and not oozing survivability. It's like you don't even remember FWS + Geos even exists. For shame, China, for shame.


Is it just me, or has the QQ about Parasite/EW died down by a massive amount? The only ones that people cry about now are Rampage, Ra (I admit Q is too strong), and Gemini.

[KrollTing]

Wait, wait. Did China just try to improve a point by bringing in Nome to his argument? I honestly Tremble at what the guy will try to accomplish in LoL.

[skeloperch]

Wait, wait. Did China just try to improve a point by bringing in Nome to his argument? I honestly Tremble at what the guy will try to accomplish in LoL.

He's not on the balance team, as far as I know.

Also Genjuro is ****ing funny on Ra. I farmed mine in like 10 minutes, so I was walking around 2 shotting Chipper and WS, and they were so poor they could only afford enough invis detection for one lane. I just shat all over them, and was even killing their Legio. I love Ra so much. As much as I know he needs to be fixed, I love playing him. Anyone else have some experiences with Genjuro on unusual heroes?

Here's my reasoning for getting it: it provides windwalk, which gives Ra much needed mobility, and it gives him huge auto attack damage. Ra scales because of W's extra damage, and E's extra attack speed, so Genjuro only increases Ra's efficiency. It also gives Ra a load of extra armor, attack speed, and damage, on top of the maim, windwalk, and invis. If you're doing your job and keeping people down, then they shouldn't be spending money to counter your invis, because they will either be rutted, or they have to save up to counter your AoE damage. It makes Ra so much harder to kill, without making him kill himself faster. I absolutely love this item coupled with Symbol of Rage. I can go toe to toe with pretty much any hero but Zephyr.

[XFlame]

Gemini being able to combine while one of his wolves is stunned makes me cry.

[Mediocre]

I belive that most of Nomes creations can be balanced with number changes. Except tremble, that hero needs some serious rework.

Divas heroes on the other hand has serious design flaws that cant be addressed properly with number tweaks (silh, gemini, old monarch, midas...).

[`11411181]

Midas is a Nome hero, and one that can be addressed through number tweaks, because it's just that his damage numbers are far far too high, while offering as much survivability through str and str gain with his blink as he does.

Funnily enough, I think almost the exact opposite to you of Nome and DivA heroes. DivA's heroes are ones with a mostly decent concept (bar Gemini) that just have 1-2 things about them tacked on that are so overpowered that they can't be ignored.

Nome's heroes for the most part are just an entire hero built around a gimmick (hit with 2 spells and gain bonuses; uses HP instead of mana; hero based off spells that literally cant fail; interactive placeable buildings aka nydus canal; spells that look the same but are dealt with in different ways; a mobile hero with a fixed combo that looks visually confusing and appealing) and whether that gimmick works or not in a constructive way for the game is secondary to intangible cosmetic crap.

[Hsssh]

I remember when Diva wanted to make DM with charges instead of mana, realized that it is a stupid idea and made him with mana. Same thing should have happened with Ra.

[Ekamo]

Am I the only one not having a problem with RA? I mean, sure Hotbl enables him to do some pretty stupid **** but as a whole, I don't really see it.

[pechkin]

problem is that hero with so much low cooldown aoe dmg should not have so much mobility.

[Hsssh]

i think people dislike him because he is derp, not because he is some uncontrollable monstrosity.

[Mediocre]

Am I the only one not having a problem with RA? I mean, sure Hotbl enables him to do some pretty stupid **** but as a whole, I don't really see it.

He can snowball out of control if he gets fed in the laning phase.

But really, against competent players he is no problem at all.

Monarch + RA seems to be a popular pub herpaderp combo with some potential, but if that lane fails to get kills he wont be a problem.

Most of the whine against RA comes from bad players who cant dodge his stun or dont know how to counter him.

He has low ms, unless he uses meteor, and his armor is 1 which makes him easily harrassable before he gets hotbl.

[STFU`BEAR]

The problem with Ra is how easy he is to play.

I don't find him overpowered at all, but he always seems to get 300 gpm and a lot of kills no matter how bad the player is.

[skeloperch]

problem is that hero with so much low cooldown aoe dmg should not have so much mobility.

He doesn't have a lot of mobility, though. He has 290 base ms, and relies on his Q to give him mobility, but it only lasts for like 2/3 seconds, and costs him 15% of his spell to cast. The only thing ridiculous about him is how his meteor hits a creep wave for full damage.

[pechkin]

it has low cooldown, it grants terrain walk, it gives 522 movespeed even before meteor hits, which is not in description, it grants additional movespeed and heal after you got hit by meteor. now compare him to legio, who has to get pk and phase boots or else he is a walking piece of meat.

[skeloperch]

it has low cooldown, it grants terrain walk, it gives 522 movespeed even before meteor hits, which is not in description, it grants additional movespeed and heal after you got hit by meteor. now compare him to legio, who has to get pk and phase boots or else he is a walking piece of meat.

Legio pretty much gets free +500 ms from charge, assuming you maxed it, which you should always max first. Plus Legio doesn't scale backwards, and attacking him kills you more than him, which is the other way around for Ra. Plus Ra doesn't deal 300% of his auto damage with Meteor. If Ra's meteor gives him max ms, I'm pretty sure its a bug.

[Haruhi_sos]

. The only thing ridiculous about him is how his meteor hits a creep wave for full damage.

I like this idea. Maybe meteorite should get reworked like Rhapsody's Dance floor in how it much damage it deals / hp regen for creeps

Not suggestion thread but meh, I liked it

[Haruhi_sos]

double post

[sexconker]

Nerf Monarch. Nerf Fayde. Nerf Pebbles. Game fixed.

[Tedde]

Nerf Monarch. Nerf Fayde. Nerf Pebbles. Game fixed.

Nerf the gankers and buff helm. Game fixed :bomb:

[PzKw]

Legio pretty much gets free +500 ms from charge, assuming you maxed it, which you should always max first. Plus Legio doesn't scale backwards, and attacking him kills you more than him, which is the other way around for Ra. Plus Ra doesn't deal 300% of his auto damage with Meteor. If Ra's meteor gives him max ms, I'm pretty sure its a bug.

Lego's mobility is utterly one dimensional...

I can't believe you bothered to post this....

[PzKw]

Also, the problem with ganking isn't that it's mechanically too hard to do against good teams (pre hotbl, because it's nearly impossible post - and good teams should be hard to gank against early), it's that the payoff isn't there vs the resources and risk there.

Carries have access to too many means of coming back from a gank to make ganking a viable option when it needs to be. Instead, the best bet is to have your own carries maintaining comparable farm...

[skeloperch]

Lego's mobility is utterly one dimensional...

I can't believe you bothered to post this....

Mobility is mobility. Even if he can only charge at enemies, there is usually something to charge at, no matter where he is. You wouldn't say Rampage is immobile, would you?

[skeloperch]

Also, the problem with ganking isn't that it's mechanically too hard to do against good teams (pre hotbl, because it's nearly impossible post - and good teams should be hard to gank against early), it's that the payoff isn't there vs the resources and risk there.

Carries have access to too many means of coming back from a gank to make ganking a viable option when it needs to be. Instead, the best bet is to have your own carries maintaining comparable farm...

This problem exists in the other ARTS games as well. Carries ALWAYS have a lot of stuff enabling them, and if they can't make good use of that, they have ridiculous numbers.

[STFU`BEAR]

Just remove cliffwalking from his Q, there's no reason it's there.
When you are a hero that stacks tanky items and has a ult that revives, you don't need such a good escape spell.

[skeloperch]

Just remove cliffwalking from his Q, there's no reason it's there.
When you are a hero that stacks tanky items and has a ult that revives, you don't need such a good escape spell.

His ulti is basically 50% extra EHP, as long as you can keep half of your mana or more. That's why he has an escape mechanism. His ulti is kinda crap.

[STFU`BEAR]

His ulti is basically 50% extra EHP, as long as you can keep half of your mana or more. That's why he has an escape mechanism. His ulti is kinda crap.
522 movespeed is all the escape he needs, if he gets caught in a spot where neither that or his ult can save him he deserves to die.

[ElementUser]

Did you not see my hint? SB was weak because other orbs were better. Its easy enough to put SB in any lineup with armor reduction. SB is not only good mid-game if you have simply a Pestilence or Andro in your lineup.

I'm not going to further expound my point. Fact is, game balance could be leaps and bounds better. You shouldn't implement **** that doesn't increase the depth of the game, a la genjuro. The game should be balanced and built upon its competitive scene, because players constantly improve and will nevertheless veer closer to that pinnacle.

In short, I think you're not worth my time responding to. cya.

I never said anything about Genjuro though, or anything else.

:/

[Volume]

eat foot, sex spouse.

wait what's this thread about?

[Negativity]

stat stacking Gemini is OP

nerf his ult, seriously why does he get full abilities on his wolves if the main body doesnt have it. 1k hp+ sub 10minutes on both wolves with innate magic armor.

imba.

[Tedde]

You need a lot of AoE to address a stat stacking Gemini. It's not impossible, but very frustrating.

[Tupimus]

And just how much better you have to be than that stat-stacking Gemini player to actually be even capable of winning a match like that. It's a ridiculous effort to either chew through the OVER NINE MILLION THOUSAND EHP he has or just to play so much better that he can't abuse the everloving nooblube that is the ultimate endlessly.

Getting seriously tired of Valkyrie, Monarch, Ra, Zephyr, Nomad, Emerald RITEKLIRK and Gemini.

[china]

Ra: He two-shots creep waves, and if you gank him, his GPM doesn't take a hit. He will almost always have good or very good farm, and can easily recover in jungle.

[china]

Hi S2.

I know this was brought up in Beta only a few dozen times, but why you no make all pseudo-blinks + tablet cause BH ult to damage target? I mean, that's the functionality.

[ElementUser]

The Dumpster Taunt is in HoN

All balance problems solved by putting it in this dumpster

:devo:

[Rean]

i want it ;<

[pewpewstar]

Hi S2.

I know this was brought up in Beta only a few dozen times, but why you no make all pseudo-blinks + tablet cause BH ult to damage target? I mean, that's the functionality.

Think BH's the least worry of anyone right now, balance wise ;p

Or, like, ever really.

[GregerMoek]

Would be hilarous, a team of 5 tablets and a BH

[china]

Think BH's the least worry of anyone right now, balance wise ;p

Or, like, ever really.

Terrify in conjunction with his ult, along with all other displace skills (including those that can be used to escape), is pretty critical to the skill. Hero would at least be 76% better to pub stomp with. But it really is such a huge gap in functionality. It really really is.

[XFlame]

Could also mean that he becomes a counter to blink/charge heavy teams, ie a team that picks up Kraken and Magebane.

[china]

Has to be a pseudo-blink.

Tablet is bought so often, it'd make the skill so much more potent. :[ but o well.

[PzKw]

This problem exists in the other ARTS games as well. Carries ALWAYS have a lot of stuff enabling them, and if they can't make good use of that, they have ridiculous numbers.

This use of the word enabling is getting beyond a ****ing joke, as are your posts Skelo. Carries have not always been batshit overpowered and indispensable. In fact that's a moderately recent thing in the genre as a whole.

Carries have always needed monitoring, and were always the canary that showed imbalances first, but up until a few years ago, they were pretty heavily marginalised and broadly useless in most dominant metagames...

You can easily point to the gameplay mechanics that make carries completely indispensable, and frankly, stronger as heroes than straight up supports and sane gankers, as I have done on many occasions. Sure power creep made these concepts obsolete, but carries led the curve on power creep every time, and (I'm going to use this word properly this time) it is very obvious which factors enable carries to loleasymode into the items they need in order to carry.

Carries almost never compete with anything but other carries and semi-carries and this is a legitimate problem, which has existed in HoN forever. Supports et al still get "outcarried" before 20 minutes and all the comfortably overpowered but non scalar 2000 gold items in hell won't change this as long as no reliable mechanisms exist to take gold off carries and/or outright stop them exploiting their scaling mechanics. But surely I've ranted enough about this that I'd anyone were prepared to sit up and listen, they would have instead of dallying for, what, three ****ing years over these problems.

Leaving carries effectively unchallenged in their ability to carry, except by being outcarried by semicarry gankers and other types of carries, does _not_ make the game faster, it makes it dumber...

[PzKw]

Protip: X (mechanic) enables Y (noun) to Z (verb).

Not: X is an enabler (of what, how?).

The term enabler is virtually meaningless outside of psychology (where it describes a particular type of causal relationship) unless the various terms around it are at least defined in a cursory manner.

Using it as it is used above is akin to saying "X causes!" which only serves to obfuscate otherwise clear arguments.

Edit: this reminds me of a post in the hotbl thread I meant to reply to, but never did... Hmmm...

[skeloperch]

This use of the word enabling is getting beyond a ****ing joke, as are your posts Skelo. Carries have not always been batshit overpowered and indispensable. In fact that's a moderately recent thing in the genre as a whole.

Carries have always needed monitoring, and were always the canary that showed imbalances first, but up until a few years ago, they were pretty heavily marginalised and broadly useless in most dominant metagames...

You can easily point to the gameplay mechanics that make carries completely indispensable, and frankly, stronger as heroes than straight up supports and sane gankers, as I have done on many occasions. Sure power creep made these concepts obsolete, but carries led the curve on power creep every time, and (I'm going to use this word properly this time) it is very obvious which factors enable carries to loleasymode into the items they need in order to carry.

Carries almost never compete with anything but other carries and semi-carries and this is a legitimate problem, which has existed in HoN forever. Supports et al still get "outcarried" before 20 minutes and all the comfortably overpowered but non scalar 2000 gold items in hell won't change this as long as no reliable mechanisms exist to take gold off carries and/or outright stop them exploiting their scaling mechanics. But surely I've ranted enough about this that I'd anyone were prepared to sit up and listen, they would have instead of dallying for, what, three ****ing years over these problems.

Leaving carries effectively unchallenged in their ability to carry, except by being outcarried by semicarry gankers and other types of carries, does _not_ make the game faster, it makes it dumber...

I never stated otherwise. All I really said (implied) is that in every ARTS game, there is something that enables carries to be as effective as they are early on. In HoN, it's cheap survivability. In LoL it's everything giving EHP and damage at the same time. In DotA, it's pretty much the same as HoN, but there have existed other items in the past that have enabled carries to surpass support. All I'm saying is that this is going on in ever ARTS game at the moment, so that's something to consider. I'm not placing any stock into whether it is good or bad, just that this isn't HoN specific.

Now that there is finally an avatar out for BH, maybe S2 will buff him so we can actually use the avatar.

[Ekamo]

China, how the hell did you get that fancy green shield? What have I missed?? :(

[china]

its the emerald color that s2 is swindling us with. next month itll be red. and the month after that, indigo. all at increasing prices.

[PzKw]

Happy New Years #balance.

[Rean]

its the emerald color that s2 is swindling us with. next month itll be red. and the month after that, indigo. all at increasing prices.
the most funny part in this is that it sounds very plausible

[Ekamo]

its the emerald color that s2 is swindling us with. next month itll be red. and the month after that, indigo. all at increasing prices.

Just by having this you become 1600 % more awesome.

I want haz!

[Mediocre]

its the emerald color that s2 is swindling us with. next month itll be red. and the month after that, indigo. all at increasing prices.

Nerf useless colors.

[Zilrax]

Buff non useless colors! Like Yellue and Gred and Purown.

[changlingbob]

But why would you want a colour other than purple (or, gold if you're into being elitist, I guess)?

[Skyve]

its the emerald color that s2 is swindling us with. next month itll be red. and the month after that, indigo. all at increasing prices.

I doubt they are going to sell red, maroon or orange anytime soon...

Also green is still cheaper than purple used to be (1250 vs 900).

[Cyber_Kun]

HAI GUZ, WHAT ABOUT MAROON?

I wanna know

[XFlame]

Happy New Year Balance Forum.

And to make this thread on-topic: Balph's charged ult needs a serious cd reduction. 120 seconds is way too long, and a Balph without an ult in a teamfight is a useless Balph.

[`11411181]

I'm still banned, apparently.

Also, happy new years everyone - and happy birthday to me for yesterday (31/12 baby, awwww yeah)!

My protip for the year: Don't drag home an orange ***** to ****, even if she does have legs that go on forever, and is hot as ****. Leave it as a fingerbang and forget on the dance floor. Hope everyone had/is having a good new years :)
I'll be back to being a caustic lovable **** for 2012 <3

[Alten]

What? You brought home a player?


How the hell did you even convince her you weren't a :pred:?

[Vermillion_]

I have a feeling there is a story behind that tip...

Also happy new year to everyone and let's hope there's a new balance patch to bring in the new year :P

[Mediocre]

I have a feeling there is a story behind that tip...

Also happy new year to everyone and let's hope there's a new balance patch to bring in the new year :P

I hope so too, but I dont belive so.

Its dollarsign2 afterall.

HNY

[PzKw]

I have a more compelling tip. 30mg of codeine synergises with the OTC herbal pills called zonk to reduce breathing to <6 breaths per minute in a healthy, fit 85kg male who may or may not have had a lot of experience with doses of codeine a lot higher than that recreationally before being subjected to regular drug tests.

Also, vomiting, disorientation, dizziness, vertigo, lapses of consciousness accompanied by total loss of breathing until consciousness was restored. For about four hours.

Worst New Year's Day yet. The hangover WAS better than the cure.

[XFlame]

And there I was, with the biggest annoyance I had was having to pay €1,50 just to hang my coat.

[changlingbob]

We had some friends over and played board games and got a bit sozzled on bubbly. This seems like the more optimal plan here.

[Ekamo]

Completely sober and still ended up in some random girl's arms the first two hours of the new year. Me gusta!

Pzkw, something you should try next time? ;)

[Hsssh]

Important question is, was that girl drunk?

[`11411181]

He's Swedish, according to the stats she doesn't need to be.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL <3

[GregerMoek]

AFAIK he doesn't live in Sweden though, but I may be wrong.

[Ekamo]

I'm a Swede living in America. Best pickup line ever (confirmed, it works!):

"Hey, I'm Swedish, what's up?"

[snae]

Ra: He two-shots creep waves, and if you gank him, his GPM doesn't take a hit. He will almost always have good or very good farm, and can easily recover in jungle.
Yeah just like Soulstealer. Only difference is how SS is not tanky-style hero and he needs mana. Ra is str hero and doesn't need mana. Hell, Ra even has some sort of build in escape mechanism. Here is the thing why I find most dota heroes better desinged.

I have played Dota 2 for a while now I cant say which game is more balanced but at least I found dota's balance changes and dota only features more intelligent. But the game itself is far less responsive than Hon and some (beta) mechanics make me mad while playing it.

Direct item counters are stupid like the new Shildbreaker counters Hotbl.

Also china I really like pretty much all your opinions on balancing the game, makes me wonder why are these balance changes somewhat dumb when we have great opinions on balance available.

[Zilrax]

I think because not every suggestion that seems great, is. And who determines what a great opinion is? Everyone has one. Who's is great?

[Anakha]

Mad props to Rawn.

[pewpewstar]

Thank goodness, to think all the effort we'd put in went to waste... ;);)

[Hsssh]

Thoughts on Nome's last hero? I think ulti is stupid while her passive will probably transform her into tanky magic dealer.

[XFlame]

So they made another walking fountain. Meh.

In completely unrelated news, I quit as the Administrator for HonReplays today. More time for the Balance Forum, yay.

[Hsssh]

Are HonReplays even alive anymore? You got that competitive wiki but that looks more like a side project and that nice plugin where you can see who is streaming at the moment. Other than that, nothing?

[Anakha]

So they made another walking fountain. Meh.

In completely unrelated news, I quit as the Administrator for HonReplays today. More time for the Balance Forum, yay.

How come?

[changlingbob]

11:35 < cbob> oh sweet, a hero spotlight
11:35 < cbob> time to rip it to pieces
11:37 < cbob> low cooldown, low manacost
11:37 < cbob> these are going to be broken as ****
11:37 < cbob> low damage, low cooldown spells
11:37 < cbob> and a passive that does damage when you cast spells
11:37 < cbob> HMMM
11:38 < cbob> a homing skillshot?
11:38 < cbob> gg
11:39 < cbob> forced synergy on E, k
11:39 < cbob> and its a heal and a mana regen and tanky dps while casting
11:39 < cbob> double damage output on ult
11:39 < cbob> welp
11:39 < cbob> gg
11:40 < cbob> oh god this is hideous
11:40 <&RazielXYZ> cbob, <3
11:40 < cbob> next you're going to tell me the obellisk can heal itself as you cast your heal
11:40 < cbob> see, spectre has global teamfight presence
11:40 < cbob> but is also a ****ing hard carry
11:40 < cbob> instead of an early game ganker

[XFlame]

Are HonReplays even alive anymore? You got that competitive wiki but that looks more like a side project and that nice plugin where you can see who is streaming at the moment. Other than that, nothing?
Visitor-wise, HoNReplays is still very much alive. The livestreams + wiki are good for raw visitor numbers. Content-wise however, it is pretty much dead. Staff are quite inactive despite my best efforts to keep the section alive. I've been told that there might be a turn-around in the future, but nothing is solid as of yet.


How come?
Personal reasons, mostly. I'm a more of a traditional content writer and never fully adapted to the new style of content (regular tournaments with big prizes + casting + coverage). And then there's the reason that I (http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showuser=92917) decided that after more than 3 years of staff, it's time to visit the magical land they call real-life and start working on things that actually matter, like a job and a social life.

[PzKw]

Clearvision on Magic Missile. Why?

I don't object in concept to the hero, but why does EVERY ****ING HERO need clearvision? Are we deliberately destroying the concept of juking, or is it just a prerequisite for producing a hero who is supposed to be able to gank.

Once upon a time, getting information without putting yourself in harm's way was a niche skill only a few heroes enjoyed. It even saw wide nerfing because it's a really potent thing to put on a hero. But seemingly EVERY ****ing hero gets a dib into this pie these days in some limited form. It's not like any of these heroes needed it to function, there's just no reason why everyone should get the ability to see incoming ganks.

Christ's sake. There's just too much of it going into the game. Far too much... Look back at the past heroes who have been added, and just how much clearvision has been added as an extra effect on spells. Clearvision along paths, lingering clearvision, clearvision in radiuses. It's ****ing stupid because it's not being added as a well thought out element of the hero, it's just being thrown on, presumably so that people can see if their skillshot hit or not., but perhaps just because of the mistaken belief that it will encourage faster play.

Ironically, despite intensely disliking EW, I think the clearvision on her is one of the few things done well because it is an integral part of the ability. I think having vision of wolves isn't, on the other hand...

As a high priority, clearvision should be removed off the abilities that it's not absolutely necessary on, because it's such a difficult balance factor to quantify, but none the less is clearly a strong thing to have. It's not that clearvision is a bad thing to have, it's that it's a bad thing to have on every swinging dick.

[china]

Hi.

Gemini is broken because a Gemini with 5 Bracers 7 minutes in makes it feel like you're 40 minutes in and were afk for 35 of it. Yes, he will tower dive three of your heroes and kill two of you and go huehuehue all the way home.

Kookiez is a dog picker. You dirty man.

[Reldnahc]

Hi.

Gemini is broken because a Gemini with 5 Bracers 7 minutes in makes it feel like you're 40 minutes in and were afk for 35 of it. Yes, he will tower dive three of your heroes and kill two of you and go huehuehue all the way home.

Kookiez is a dog picker. You dirty man.

I think they picked the wrong Zodiac sign to name him after. They should have chosen Cancer.

zing

[_Snow]

nerf gemini. PLEASE.

[china]

Sub-lvl 10 respawn timers should be longer by 5-15 seconds.

[changlingbob]

Sub-lvl 10 respawn timers should be longer by 5-15 seconds.

context?

[china]

You gank two, but you can't do anything because they're up in the amount of time it would take for you to push creeps up the lane. Prevalent when there's a low-level high-impact hero like Magmus/Behemoth (with blink).

Frankly, I've found myself in some games where I literally tell my team: Just farm, wait til they get a higher level so when we win a teamfight we can actually push with it. That is unless you have the HoN equivalent of a terran bio-ball.

[Anakha]

I think they picked the wrong Zodiac sign to name him after. They should have chosen Cancer.

zing

i rate this

[changlingbob]

11:35 < cbob> oh sweet, a hero spotlight
11:35 < cbob> time to rip it to pieces
11:37 < cbob> low cooldown, low manacost
11:37 < cbob> these are going to be broken as ****
11:37 < cbob> low damage, low cooldown spells
11:37 < cbob> and a passive that does damage when you cast spells
11:37 < cbob> HMMM
11:38 < cbob> a homing skillshot?
11:38 < cbob> gg
11:39 < cbob> forced synergy on E, k
11:39 < cbob> and its a heal and a mana regen and tanky dps while casting
11:39 < cbob> double damage output on ult
11:39 < cbob> welp
11:39 < cbob> gg
11:40 < cbob> oh god this is hideous
11:40 <&RazielXYZ> cbob, <3
11:40 < cbob> next you're going to tell me the obellisk can heal itself as you cast your heal
11:40 < cbob> see, spectre has global teamfight presence
11:40 < cbob> but is also a ****ing hard carry
11:40 < cbob> instead of an early game ganker
UPDATE:

17:49 < cbob> HAHAHA
17:49 < cbob> hhaha
17:49 < cbob> ahahaa
17:49 < cbob> i only just realised that obelisk has a heal aura
17:49 < cbob> welp
17:49 < cbob> that's OP as ****
17:49 < cbob> ggggg
17:49 < cbob> who let this thing exist

[XFlame]

Was watching Moonmeanders stream today while he played Salforis. Between his usual G dropping he said that while Salf is tanky enough, he just doesn't deal enough damage to be considered viable.

[Cyber_Kun]

Anti-scaling on Q yall. Ruins that hero.

[XFlame]

I haven't played him myself yet, but it seems that not being able to get close to an enemy is his main problem.

[china]

I haven't played him myself yet, but it seems that not being able to get close to an enemy is his main problem.

that's the short of it.

[Cyber_Kun]

Meh. Even if he gets close, what damage does he do? Not enough.

[Skyve]

Thoughts on Nome's last hero? I think ulti is stupid while her passive will probably transform her into tanky magic dealer.

I made a hero with a similar ultimate once upon a time.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=22028&highlight=monk

I kinda feel like the regeneration on it is a bit too much though, although it's hard to say really without having the numbers.

[Faeros]

i dont know why people think salforis is not fast enough, if he had even 5 more run speed he would be too fast, ive seen a lot of salforis lately and none have built him to his strength. He is a chasing hero, nothing more, nothing less. Life steal on hit to chase passed towers and slow people, quick cd burst for a finisher, ulti is situational. try this, get scarab and runes, level 3,2,3,2,1,4,3,1,3,1,4 etc etc. You only need 2 levels in the regen, build ghost marchers, buy a single mana tube, build firebrand, finish SS if the game isnt over finish frostburn. If you have decent farm which is hell easy with him in lane by lvl 10ish you should have 496 run speed indefinately. once you get ss it goes up to 522 for 5 seconds every 10 seconds or so but hangs on 496 the rest of the time, finish frostburn, gg. ive chased pestilance down + slow = you freaking win, rampage chasing you, other than the half second animation cancels on your speed up you go just as fast as him and warbeast. this hero is designed for speed not burst dps and not tankyness, diveing towers AS the enemy creep wave goes across so you can lifesteal a creep. Also, nerf RA.

[argnoferich]

Respawn times (11+) should be increased, there's never enough time for settling the game after ganks or teamfights. Nothing too drastic tho, sometimes 5-8 seconds should suffice.

[skeloperch]

I think that we should just increase the respawn time by 10 seconds to lessen the impact of Grave Locket, or just nerf -respawn time on Grave Locket. Either or.

Why do I have a feeling that Artesia is going to be underpowered unless the numbers are stupid high like they will be? I have a feeling that her Q is gonna be something close to 100/120 damage at max level, whereas it could probably be 60-80 at max level and be balanced. W is probably gonna deal a max of like 250 or so damage, or have a stupid high mana-cost. I'm pretty sure Dance-of-Death will heal for around 200 or so health as well. The Obelisk seems like a good idea, minus the healing aura. It's a global spell that takes skill to use (the only one, other than Bomba's). Just be glad S2 isn't porting in Furion. ****ity **** ****.

Also, KS just got released tonight. Gonna try for the 'No-arms-to-hug-you-with' route.

[XFlame]

This forum needs at least the option to turn the damn profanity filter off. You can't even use words like wardb!tch (ahem: ward*****). It makes me mad.

[Hsssh]

I'm sorry, pushing is too hard so we need longer respawn timers on early levels? What?

[skeloperch]

I'm sorry, pushing is too hard so we need longer respawn timers on early levels? What?

It's not that. It's the fact that early-game based heroes have a much shorter time period to be effective, whereas Valkyrie, Midas, and Kraken have all game to be effective. If anything, it brings down the effectiveness of said heroes, as it gives them less time to farm/project their presence in a team fight. Perhaps make base respawn time an actual stat? That way we can give non-issue heroes a low respawn time, and other annoyances penalties for actually dying (who actually dies as Valkyrie/Kraken without going balls-to-the-walls?).

[Antimodus]

Hi.

Gemini is broken because a Gemini with 5 Bracers 7 minutes in makes it feel like you're 40 minutes in and were afk for 35 of it. Yes, he will tower dive three of your heroes and kill two of you and go huehuehue all the way home.

Yet when something like this was said in the supposed balance thread for Gemini, all the tryhards came out of the woodwork to let us know that "u mad cuz u bad" and "another pub smashed by a good Gemini player". Conclusion? Gemini's balanced. Funny how that works.

[Hsssh]

Now China will write how everyone knows that Gemini is broken.