Balance Dump

[Benny0]

Glacius now has the highest win percentage. Back when Plague was there he was considered underpowered and received a huge movespeed buff. When can we expect this for Glacius? I'd love to play 320 ms Glac.

[Skyve]

And I thought I was being silly when I considered his new ult too good.

Might just bee a tad bit too strong now :P

[skeloperch]

And I thought I was being silly when I considered his new ult too good.

Might just bee a tad bit too strong now :P

Silly Skyve.

Whelp, Dampeer just got used; twice. Balpha got used in the tournament. Anyone we haven't seen...? BLOOD HUNTER?!

[Anakha]

Seems Nome deleted his wordpress blog. What a shame.

[BigBoss00]

Why is it that my highest apm is on Balphagore?

[Tedde]

Seems Nome deleted his wordpress blog. What a shame.

He forgot his password .__.

[GregerMoek]

Saw Blood Hunter before the change against a DR mid. 15sex silence is sex.

[XFlame]

Seems Nome deleted his wordpress blog. What a shame.
We also have most of his blogs on HonReplays.Org (http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/portals.php?show=blogs).

/shameless promotion post.

[Anakha]

He forgot his password .__.
http://sentientsec.org/~anakha/dontbuyit.jpg
Not hard, doesn't constitute a deletion of your entire blog.


We also have most of his blogs on HonReplays.Org (http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/portals.php?show=blogs).

/shameless promotion post.
Thanks, luckily it had the one I wished to link to someone (http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/portals.php?show=page&name=heroes-of-newerth-nome-blog-the-next-generation-moba-1)

[Benny0]

Huh, that's a shame, I love Nome's design philosophy.

Certain European Teams (okay, Era), like to use Dampeer on occasion. He really isn't a bad hero, his design is just rather clumsy, I feel. That, and perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel the hero relies so heavily on doing well in lane without many tools to do well in lane that it's really far too high of a risk to pick up.

Balphagore is a great hero, always love to watch him.

Also, flint still needs his dota nuke. If you want to rebuff him because yes, that's an enormous nerf, give him larger sight range at night like he has in dota. AFAIK in HoN at night you can't stay out of tower range and attack towers, I'm pretty sure you can in DotA.

[dEph_]

Random thought here. Ra's passive Ashes to Ashes at lvl1 gives +1 Health Regeneration. Granted you don't get the +dmg or +hp but that would take about +33 strength. That seems high at such a low level considering you get the +atkspd and aoe dmg.

[Benny0]

Empath gives that globally at level 1, and Knight Davion's Passive gives 2 hp at level 1, as well as 2 armor. I really don't think Ashes to Ashes at low levels is the problem with Ra. I think it's Ashes to Ashes + the melee regen buff...

[Anakha]

HP regeneration through strength gain is a fairly bad comparison to make, since FWS itself only gives 0.9 hp regen through its str attribute, and flat regen (trinket of resto) is 350g for +2.
A better comparison will always be to flat regen, since Ra only buys mostly flat HP and HP regen rather than strength.
+1 from ashes and +1 base melee regen is effectively +2, so you've got 350g of free benefits there.

Now compare this to Tremble's mounds at level 1, which are the equivalent of thousands of gold in benefits.


As for Nome's design philosophy:
"There exists an overemphasis placed upon the picking phase; that is to say, your hero picks represent a disproportionate contributor to the result of a match versus how well the heroes are actually played and strategies are executed."

So wrong in so many ways.

[Anakha]

<pewpewstar> YES
<pewpewstar> I'M ALIVE
<pewpewstar> THANKS TO THE AIRPORT SHUTTING DOWN
<pewpewstar> WHICH DELAYED THE PARCEL
<pewpewstar> WHICH ENABLED ME TO RECALL IT
<pewpewstar> YEEEAAAAAAAAAA

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[skeloperch]

HP regeneration through strength gain is a fairly bad comparison to make, since FWS itself only gives 0.9 hp regen through its str attribute, and flat regen (trinket of resto) is 350g for +2.
A better comparison will always be to flat regen, since Ra only buys mostly flat HP and HP regen rather than strength.
+1 from ashes and +1 base melee regen is effectively +2, so you've got 350g of free benefits there.

Now compare this to Tremble's mounds at level 1, which are the equivalent of thousands of gold in benefits.


As for Nome's design philosophy:
"There exists an overemphasis placed upon the picking phase; that is to say, your hero picks represent a disproportionate contributor to the result of a match versus how well the heroes are actually played and strategies are executed."

So wrong in so many ways.

I would agree with Nome. Hero picks are vital to how the game goes. A team of :pebb: :krak: :dead: :ramp: :pest: is gonna fall flat, while a team of :mast: :amun: :para: :deme: :glac: will own face. It's true that good players could beat team 2 with team 1, but, assuming equal skill level, team 2 will always win, because it is a setup that has a balance of roles. This is at least what I interpret out of what Nome is saying.

Anyways, how do we buff DW to be more viable? Is he already viable, just extremely niche? Is there a way to buff him so that he isn't OP in pubs or comp play, and yet he is still worth picking over Pebbles/Tundra/Midas?

[Anakha]

I'm not debating that picking isn't influential. He's saying in that article that it shouldn't be as influential as it is, which is rubbish. You don't get to pick 5 farm dependent melee heroes and win a game now, and you shouldn't ever be allowed to do that - reducing the emphasis on the picking phase reduces the depth of the game tremendously on a strategical level (which we are seeing now).

[Hsssh]

If your picks don't matter much then it's easier to play well with them and execute your strategy. In short it dumps down the game on every front.

This reminds me LoL a bit, i remember when playing 5 melee against 5 ranged i never felt that we were ****ed in the laning phase and got kinda decent farm. Of course i never bothered to get to ranked games there so maybe things change at some point.

[changlingbob]

The LoL picking phase is nice and straight forward though; a jungler, an AD carry to solo short, an AP carry to solo mid, a carry and a support for the long lane. As long as you know which champion is which, you can't go wrong! Of course, this means there's precisely one viable strategy, and the champions that are less good at a specific role are actually useless, as they don't have niche uses (barring a couple of exceptions).

So its possible to make the picking phase less influential, but why would you ever want to?

E: Details may not quite be right, as I don't play straight up LoL because see conclusion above. Dominion is good fun though.

[GregerMoek]

Kinda dull to only see the same thing all the time, I mean because the spells are not as powerful in LoL compared to HoN trilanes, 2 vs 1 and stuff like that are harder to execute and AFAIK there are barely any benefits from doing that.

I must admit I haven't played LoL much so basically there might be some hero there who's like Andro with a super-strong stun at level 1, I doubt it though.

[Anakha]

LoL has no real way of controlling your opponent's income from 0:00 so it just becomes an economy race for the first 20min.

[skeloperch]

Meh. I play LoL semi-decently in ranked. My nub friends still wonder why I'm better than them when they play LoL 10x as much as me.

Basically, strategies evolve in LoL, but the main setup is: a jungler, a tanky dps to solo sidelane, a support, a 'tank' and either another AP or AD, depending on what you're lacking. Roaming in LoL is null, because all that matters is damage because of a little thing called tenacity. There are champions that have strong stuns at level one, but tenacity prevents them from staying low leveled. The stat reduces the duration of all debuffs, and stacks with natural tenacity some champions get (Irelia has a passive that gives you 10/25/40% tenacity based on how many enemies are around you, which completely stacks with Mercury Treads to give you something like 70% reduced duration of debuffs). The picking phase is dull; only a few champions in every 'role' are viable. Do we want the game to be like LoL?

[Skyve]

I'm not debating that picking isn't influential. He's saying in that article that it shouldn't be as influential as it is, which is rubbish. You don't get to pick 5 farm dependent melee heroes and win a game now, and you shouldn't ever be allowed to do that - reducing the emphasis on the picking phase reduces the depth of the game tremendously on a strategical level (which we are seeing now).

Well, yes and no. I'm pretty sure that his idea wasn't to make 5 melee hardcarries viable, but rather to make "5 melee hardcarries" non-existent, by making every hero a somewhat "hybrid" between multiple/every role.
The problem is that you can't do that with HoN, instead it takes a new game to do that, because HoN already has it's basic "set of rules" established.

Although I wouldn't mind if a team of 5 melees would be as viable as a team of 5 ranged heroes.
:P

[TRYTROUSERS]

I think S2 painted themselves into a corner when they gave too much lane control to the popular hard supports like plague and slither. I know we are supposed to talk about the game on a competitive level, but it's really not fun to sit down and play one game of hon, pick a melee hero you actually enjoy, and have some random dude 100 - 0 attack walk you out of the lane without taking a single hit from the creeps.

Supports are always going to be viable just because of their click stuns and low income requirement, but letting them do the equivalent of a drow ranger orb walk was just too much. Pub games were being won and lost simply because one team had a guy who was willing to be that turbonerd who instant locks in the plague rider and gaurantees EZ farm to his lane by right clicking and hitting Q when its up.

The end result was that melee heros were basically pigeonholed into a very small amount of lane configurations that almost always required someone else to play a hard support for you, or to stick them in the middle lane. So what does S2 do, make the creeps more responsive? Nah, let's just release melee heros whose abilities are so ridiculous that they can start to carry with a set of red boots and a vanguard. After that things just started to spiral out of control and it seemed like every hero was being released with the mindset that the hero should be able to be played solo, as if the game was Call of Duty in Newerth.

[Nine_Cloak]

Jeraziah, Plague Rider, Kraken, Predator are all broken in as many ways as you can possibly imagine.

MMR system is broken.

Fayde's little strong.

Chronos and Sand Wraith need beneficial changes.


I think S2 painted themselves into a corner when they gave too much lane control to the popular hard supports like plague and slither. I know we are supposed to talk about the game on a competitive level, but it's really not fun to sit down and play one game of hon, pick a melee hero you actually enjoy, and have some random dude 100 - 0 attack walk you out of the lane without taking a single hit from the creeps.

Supports are always going to be viable just because of their click stuns and low income requirement, but letting them do the equivalent of a drow ranger orb walk was just too much. Pub games were being won and lost simply because one team had a guy who was willing to be that turbonerd who instant locks in the plague rider and gaurantees EZ farm to his lane by right clicking and hitting Q when its up.

The end result was that melee heros were basically pigeonholed into a very small amount of lane configurations that almost always required someone else to play a hard support for you, or to stick them in the middle lane. So what does S2 do, make the creeps more responsive? Nah, let's just release melee heros whose abilities are so ridiculous that they can start to carry with a set of red boots and a vanguard. After that things just started to spiral out of control and it seemed like every hero was being released with the mindset that the hero should be able to be played solo, as if the game was Call of Duty in Newerth.

Also, this x4000

[Hsssh]

I think S2 painted themselves into a corner when they gave too much lane control to the popular hard supports like plague and slither. I know we are supposed to talk about the game on a competitive level, but it's really not fun to sit down and play one game of hon, pick a melee hero you actually enjoy, and have some random dude 100 - 0 attack walk you out of the lane without taking a single hit from the creeps.

Aren't they stronger in Dota?

[Anakha]

Lane control means a lot less in DotA than it does in HoN, as heroes don't ramp up as quickly as they do in HoN. Having said that, he's grossly exaggerating.

[XFlame]

So, is Magic Vestments way too good for its cost, or is it because too many viable heroes deal magic damage atm?

[Anakha]

Both?

[GregerMoek]

While that might be the case I don't think that Shaman's headress is too cost efficient, mayhaps it has become stronger now when all the nukers of Newerth arrived, but still.

I guess that in a way this promotes even more the "tank-carry" pickups, as they are the ones most likely going for such items anyways and also being able to endure some spanking and burst.

Edit: However just picking up a Mystic vestments often means your hero got pretty much for the gold spent, won't really say that's not true.

[Skyve]

So, is Magic Vestments way too good for its cost, or is it because too many viable heroes deal magic damage atm?

Most items that you more or less should pick up every game can be argued to be too good.

Vestments, Mana Battery/Power Supply, Boots (+Steamboots/Ghost Marchers), Sheepsticks, HotBL are definitely in spots that might require some rethinking.

[Shadeward]

Most items that you more or less should pick up every game can be argued to be too good.

Vestments, Mana Battery/Power Supply, Boots (+Steamboots/Ghost Marchers), Sheepsticks, HotBL are definitely in spots that might require some rethinking.


Sheepstick is fine. The heroes that benefit most are heroes that tail off in the later parts of the game, and this item requires significant farm to get it before they start their downslide. It's also countered by Shrunken.

HotBL would be fine if there wasn't a bunch of heroes that have unbelievably powerful abilities without needing good regen or having many survivability issues. Heroes like Zephyr, Amun-Ra, Kraken, Electrician and Cthulhuphant could use a re-tooling if not a nerf. Shieldbreaker rework was at the very least a good start.

[SmurfinBird]

Sheepstick is fine. The heroes that benefit most are heroes that tail off in the later parts of the game, and this item requires significant farm to get it before they start their downslide. It's also countered by Shrunken.

HotBL would be fine if there wasn't a bunch of heroes that have unbelievably powerful abilities without needing good regen or having many survivability issues. Heroes like Zephyr, Amun-Ra, Kraken, Electrician and Cthulhuphant could use a re-tooling if not a nerf. Shieldbreaker rework was at the very least a good start.

Also countered by Nullstone/stormspirit (on your team)

[Hsssh]

So glad that lots of things got changed in new hero and he isn't very close to dream hero Necromancer. That thing was broken on multiple levels.

[Anakha]

I would have liked a severely toned down version of the heals->damage part on the hero in some way, even if just converting your regeneration to 200% damage or something like that. Something else unique, rather than slither's old passive revisited.

[GregerMoek]

I miss Slither's old passive, but on Slither!

[Skyve]

Sheepstick is fine. The heroes that benefit most are heroes that tail off in the later parts of the game, and this item requires significant farm to get it before they start their downslide. It's also countered by Shrunken.

HotBL would be fine if there wasn't a bunch of heroes that have unbelievably powerful abilities without needing good regen or having many survivability issues. Heroes like Zephyr, Amun-Ra, Kraken, Electrician and Cthulhuphant could use a re-tooling if not a nerf. Shieldbreaker rework was at the very least a good start.

I honestly feel like Shieldbreaker might be a tad bit too good too.

At least it's getting picked up like crazy on most RANGED carries nowadays.

[GregerMoek]

http://nomeswisdom.wordpress.com/

Blog is up again!

Edit: I still don't like how powerful Ophelia is currently, sure she has some kind of "counter picks" in Parasite and Chtul but still.

[Skyve]

Is there any reason at the moment to pick a Deadwood over Kraken? I kinda feel like Kraken makes a lot of other heroes, and Deadwood especially pretty useless.

[GregerMoek]

Ehummmm...

Now when you mention that Kraken can probably "instagib" certain targets just as good as Kraken can. Or maybe not, but Kraken is more useful overall at least and doesn't need -that- much of a level advantage to stay relevant.

Deadwood is I guess supposed to work like Pebbles, Devourer, Gauntlet or Fayde in a sense, but he doesn't work as well. Pebbles has shorter cooldown on his ****, Fayde is not as desperate in need of a PK, Gauntlet is like a small mix between Devourer and Pebbles in item needs.

As ****ing awesome the Willowmaker animation is, probably one of the best smackdown skills side on side with Legionnaire's ult or Gauntlet's Power glove thing, It's just a Physical-melee version of Pyromancer's ultimate along with a stun and -strength. Basically everything mashed into one skill. He's less useful than the others with the Willowmaker on cooldown, and it has an awful long cooldown early on IMHO.

But I don't play the hero much, nor do I play Pebbles a lot either. I might be wrong.

[skeloperch]

OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD NOME AND PUDDIN' ARE LEAVING!

RIP Nome, Ms. Pudding, and Nig4m.

Also, Salforis looks like the most interesting hero to have come out in the past 2 months.

[Ekamo]

Ehummmm...

Now when you mention that Kraken can probably "instagib" certain targets just as good as Kraken can. Or maybe not, but Kraken is more useful overall at least and doesn't need -that- much of a level advantage to stay relevant.

Deadwood is I guess supposed to work like Pebbles, Devourer, Gauntlet or Fayde in a sense, but he doesn't work as well. Pebbles has shorter cooldown on his ****, Fayde is not as desperate in need of a PK, Gauntlet is like a small mix between Devourer and Pebbles in item needs.

As ****ing awesome the Willowmaker animation is, probably one of the best smackdown skills side on side with Legionnaire's ult or Gauntlet's Power glove thing, It's just a Physical-melee version of Pyromancer's ultimate along with a stun and -strength. Basically everything mashed into one skill. He's less useful than the others with the Willowmaker on cooldown, and it has an awful long cooldown early on IMHO.

But I don't play the hero much, nor do I play Pebbles a lot either. I might be wrong.

What I think DW got going for him is that with early farm such as Ghost Marchers his combo damage exceed what Pebbles possible is on low armor targets, as well as DW scaling much better as a ganker midgame. I mean, he can still drop people at 1400 ish hp without having any additional items at lvl 16, which is basically 400 more then Pebbles can hope to achieve.

Pebbles got his benefits though but I would say DW got some things going for him that no other ganker can offer.

[Anakha]

Deadwood is intended to be the physical version of Pebbles, with the ability to control a lane by simply CK and CD'ing every single creep with mega damage.

(not saying it's good)

[Skyve]

My point was though that DW gets obsoleted by Kraken. Pebbles has little to do with that.

[Ekamo]

My point was though that DW gets obsoleted by Kraken. Pebbles has little to do with that.

1400 damage in 3 sec, as well as 3 sec of secure disable with PK is not comparable with Kraken imo. They fill completely different roles. DW might be picked to counter Hag, while a hero like Kraken doesn't really excel at that for obvious reasons.

Feel free to inform me why you would compare those heroes.

[Skyve]

Because Kraken can just PK in and run Hag into a tree, use his ult to further disable her, and his torrent plus splash to burst her down.

And then he's still much better in teamfights. And imo much better early on. DW needs to take off and get a level advantage, while Kraken can just live off of teamfights/small skirmishes.
I mean 350 magic damage, 180 bonus damage from splash, 260 from torrent, ~500 from ult, an escape for the laning phase, much more set-up abilities to gank rather easily, especially with help, and better carry potential (higher primary attribute gain, Splash scales decently with attack speed, and lots of time to put in auto-attacks). Also less reliant on a PK, tankier, and just a safer solo lane. More teamfight presence too, and better farming.

[Bullship]

i think DW is highly underestimated in his utility.

the tree throw is a good anti nullstone ability, and kiting ability otherwise.

root has good mid game teamfight potential. its a 3 second snare that lowers armor and does 300 damage.

treewalking is great for wasting time during bad situations. in fact on a couple occassions with dw i beat characters that are supposed to hard counter me played by players that are supposedly better than me


one instance was a predator that had heart sny and demonic with alchemist. at 30 minutes. had only an average dw game pk at 16 minutes or something. nothing crazy

but i farmed a mock on DW with my teamfight gold and tower gold and soon after got a void talisman. anytime pred jumped me it was void, into the trees. if he chased me he'd just waste his time. if not id follow him and ulti him and use all my dps on him if the circumstances meant he could be put down.

later in the game my mock pretty much outfarmed predator with alchemist because i was a ganker who could pick on supports while also using mock to farm lanes and jungle.


i grabbed comparable farm to predator near the end of the game. i had a basher and shieldbreaker pickup. was hitting for over 400. and we won

if he had build a nullstone. i wouldve just farmed a tablet to put it on cd. and the tablet also wouldve helped me to escape at other times.

anything i put on dw, predator cant really do the same cause hes a linear hard carry.

[dEph_]

Empath gives that globally at level 1, and Knight Davion's Passive gives 2 hp at level 1, as well as 2 armor. I really don't think Ashes to Ashes at low levels is the problem with Ra. I think it's Ashes to Ashes + the melee regen buff...


HP regeneration through strength gain is a fairly bad comparison to make, since FWS itself only gives 0.9 hp regen through its str attribute, and flat regen (trinket of resto) is 350g for +2.
A better comparison will always be to flat regen, since Ra only buys mostly flat HP and HP regen rather than strength.
+1 from ashes and +1 base melee regen is effectively +2, so you've got 350g of free benefits there.

Now compare this to Tremble's mounds at level 1, which are the equivalent of thousands of gold in benefits.


As for Nome's design philosophy:
"There exists an overemphasis placed upon the picking phase; that is to say, your hero picks represent a disproportionate contributor to the result of a match versus how well the heroes are actually played and strategies are executed."

So wrong in so many ways.

Thanks for clearing up the Regen comparison, makes a lot more sense. Maybe that's what it is Benny, his hp regen with 1 in ashes to ashes really makes you feel safe in the lane as I can watch his health come back quite fast.

Anakha re: Nome's design philosophy, perhaps thats why heroes like :mida:, :mast:, :alun: have all seen both semicarry and supportive roles in competitive games. While I definitely applaud S2's efforts in making more heroes top level viable, in doing so they've also made them viable in multiple roles.

Is this a good or bad thing? Does it really bring down the importance of drafting? From recent matches it doesn't appear so at all. Does it make the heroes too easy to use? Well at least with the 3 examples this also doesn't appear so as they are imo quite fun and do require a fair amount of skill. Does it make them too strong because of the flexibility? I think this really depends on what you compare it to.

[Hsssh]

From those 3 heroes Nome made only Midas(and blink wasn't his idea).

[GregerMoek]

Apparently he's not gonna work for S2 any longer though.

[AdolfSlither]

Why would not he work for S2 anymore?

[SmurfinBird]

Why would not he work for S2 anymore?

Marrying Pud, is the rumour.

[Hsssh]

So married people can't work anymore..?

[Zilrax]

Nope. They get vacuum sealed into a bag and mailed to the marriage fridge. If it goes bad, the bag is removed and spilled on the floor, and if the contents roll away from each other, a divorce is filed. If the contents bounce, or have multiplied, they are transferred to the freezer.

Or people just latch onto the most obvious attempt to be funny.

Also, it's ElementUser who started the rumor.

[Hsssh]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=1652405

[SmurfinBird]

Basically, one leaves = both leave is the point of the marriage being quoted as the reason. Pudding is leaving and thus Nome is.

[PzKw]

Same Nome that used to pretend to be a chick on BNet to get admin rights?

Maybe that's just me.

[Anakha]

Anakha re: Nome's design philosophy, perhaps thats why heroes like :mida:, :mast:, :alun: have all seen both semicarry and supportive roles in competitive games. While I definitely applaud S2's efforts in making more heroes top level viable, in doing so they've also made them viable in multiple roles.

Is this a good or bad thing? Does it really bring down the importance of drafting? From recent matches it doesn't appear so at all. Does it make the heroes too easy to use? Well at least with the 3 examples this also doesn't appear so as they are imo quite fun and do require a fair amount of skill. Does it make them too strong because of the flexibility? I think this really depends on what you compare it to.

Many heroes fulfilling multiple roles within less than half of a standard deviation of power = you pick the best heroes and then shape them ingame to what you want them to be = redundant picking phase = redundant strategy = one dominant strategy.

All kinds of bad.

[ElementUser]

I never said why they left, or that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's not the reason they're leaving and it doesn't imply that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my words these days.

[Skyve]

I never said why they left, or that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's not the reason they're leaving and it doesn't imply that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my words these days.

You did say they were engaged actually :P

[Zilrax]

I never said why they left, or that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's not the reason they're leaving and it doesn't imply that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my words these days.

Somebody clearly has never played Telephone as a child.

[PzKw]

I never said why they left, or that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's not the reason they're leaving and it doesn't imply that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my words these days.
New game. We each change one word in this post until we end up with the sentence we want.


I never said why they left, or that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's basically the reason they're leaving and it doesn't imply that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my words these days.

[Benny0]

I never said why they left, and that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's basically the reason they're leaving and it doesn't imply that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my words these days.


I think this is a positive step.

In other words, seriously, can we just increase the cast time on Torturer's **** again and make it have full radius? I'd much rather that to tiny radius.

[GregerMoek]

I never said why they left, and that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's basically the reason they're leaving and it doesn't afraid that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my words these days.

:scou:

[pewpewstar]

LOL wasn't expecting that. LOOOOOOOOOL

[Zilrax]

I never said why they left, and that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's basically the reason they're leaving and it doesn't afraid that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my nipples these days.

I'm such a good influence.

[skeloperch]

I never said why they left, and that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's basically the GAME they're leaving and it doesn't afraid that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my nipples these days.

I'm such a bad person.

[Whip]

I always said why they left, and that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's basically the game they're leaving and it doesn't afraid that they will be married.

People should stop twisting my nipples these days.


Please continue, gentlemen.

[GregerMoek]

I always said why they left, and that they were even married. Yeah they're in a relationship, that's basically the GAME they're leaving and it doesn't afraid that they will be married.

People should start twisting my nipples these days

4char

[china]

Got myself removed from competitors after stating that it's no longer exclusively for competitors and that dumpsters are invited, the competitive ring isn't kept up to date, and the amount of feedback garnered there whether offered by players or actively pursued by developers is pretty much zero.

Also, SBT will continue being trashy trash trash bad. :>

How are you fellas doing?

[Bojangles15]

Got myself removed from competitors after stating that it's no longer exclusively for competitors and that dumpsters are invited, the competitive ring isn't kept up to date, and the amount of feedback garnered there whether offered by players or actively pursued by developers is pretty much zero.

Also, SBT will continue being trashy trash trash bad. :>

How are you fellas doing?

Don't worry, balance forums to the rescue! *Superman*

[Zilrax]

Doing alright, China. Playing Telephone. Your turn?

[skeloperch]

Got myself removed from competitors after stating that it's no longer exclusively for competitors and that dumpsters are invited, the competitive ring isn't kept up to date, and the amount of feedback garnered there whether offered by players or actively pursued by developers is pretty much zero.

Also, SBT will continue being trashy trash trash bad. :>

How are you fellas doing?

To be honest, I would've rather had you/Chu/Warden.The entirety of MSI hired over DivA. Srsly. Nothing against the guy, it's just that him and Kaiser are horrible at balance.

[Hsssh]

Not sure why you'd want someone as stupid as Chu designing the game.

[Skyve]

Not sure why you'd want someone as stupid as Chu designing the game.

It's skelo, just don't take anything he says too seriously :)

[skeloperch]

Not sure why you'd want someone as stupid as Chu designing the game.

Me and him are the only people who play Maokai in LoL. That's why.

[Ekamo]

To be honest, I would've rather had you/Chu/Warden.The entirety of MSI hired over DivA. Srsly. Nothing against the guy, it's just that him and Kaiser are horrible at balance.

Design = Balance

You heard it here first!

[Anakha]

Balance is an integral part of design, or should be (and isn't in HoN).

[Ekamo]

Balance is an integral part of design, or should be (and isn't in HoN).

Should have mentioned added in HoN I guess.

Do you think Dota is any better at that?

[GregerMoek]

In other news: If Nome had to delete one hero from HoN it would be Ophelia. Discuss.

[skeloperch]

In other news: If Nome had to delete one hero from HoN it would be Ophelia. Discuss.

I thought that was kinda dumb. She isn't the only hero based on creep spawns/map sides. Other examples are :para: and :cthu:.

Anyways, I, myself, would go back in time and remove Valkyrie before Silly Hat was conceived. It would save us so much stress.

[Zilrax]

I would remove... Jeraziah. Because I have too much fun with him, has to be illegal.

[Skyve]

Balance is an integral part of design, or should be (and isn't in HoN).

Let's see what Nome has to say about that:


The key to generalist heroes is to make sure they don't do something better than a specialist. If they do, that's a numbers/balance concern, not necessarily a design concern. Design does include numbers, but in a vague sense; ie, Armadon's Q and W having low cooldowns and mana costs is a design directive, not a balance directive. An Armadon with double the damage but double the cooldown on W would be a vastly different hero.

:(

It's not like a lot of issues could be resolved if their "generalists" were more nieche and less all encompassing, right?

[skeloperch]

:(

It's not like a lot of issues could be resolved if their "generalists" were more nieche and less all encompassing, right?

Nome told you off good, Skyve.

Anyways, I think he is still part of the brainwashed masses that think that generalist heroes are okay when they're like Valkyrie. That would explain why a lot of his more recent designs are kinda bullshit (:mida: :mida: :mida: :mida: :mida: :mida: :mida: :mida: :mida: :mida: :mida: :mida:), and it's because he feels he needs to make them better than a role Valkyrie fills, which means every new hero will either be insane at carrying, ganking, supporting, or farming, or they will be Salforis.

[GregerMoek]

Midas is not that much of a generalist however, in my eyes. Compared to, say, Silhouette or Aluna.

IMHO

[Skyve]

Midas is not that much of a generalist however, in my eyes. Compared to, say, Silhouette or Aluna.

No, he's more the result of pushing heroes beyond what's needed so he can do his job better than heroes like Silhouette and others.

I'd so have loved to see him more as an initiator with ganking potential (like Bubbles) with one more large AoE "set-up" ability that allows him to apply his reagent to a large number of heroes in a teamfight, and then two different abilities that allows for more or less precise triggering of his ultimate.

And less 900 nuke damage spam on low cooldowns :(

[GregerMoek]

Aye, not gonna deny he's too much with the current numbers, or at least he feels very cheap with the current numbers. But I thought bringing him into the generalist pocket wasn't right. I might have misunderstood the post though.

[skeloperch]

Aye, not gonna deny he's too much with the current numbers, or at least he feels very cheap with the current numbers. But I thought bringing him into the generalist pocket wasn't right. I might have misunderstood the post though.

I was saying that he is far greater than we he needs to be because he has to be better than Valkyrie at his role.

[GregerMoek]

I know I'm gonna hate the upcoming reworks! *growls*

[Skyve]

I hope they sticked more or less with the first rework for Vindicator (1st skill is an AoE nuke with small damage and int steal, although I'd like it if it only damaged heroes).
2nd remained the same.
3rd gave extra attack speed whenever someone casts a spell.
4th remained the same.

Sure, he doesn't have any mobility, but maybe it's time we tried out a carry without that :)

[GregerMoek]

Well, I pretty much like his current skill-set, except for the first skill. Still is great harrassment. >.<

[Anakha]

Vindicator rework is an abomination.

[Skyve]

Have you seen it? :(

[Anakha]

It's been leaked already, and hasn't changed significantly from that yet.

[changlingbob]

If its the leak I saw, its pandering to the competitive heroes who don't like their pubstomp combo-ing heroes getting shut down. That's the entire point of silencer, is to counter combo-ing heroes. The fact his Q is annoying is part of the point.

[Skyve]

Well, if it's still close to that, then safe for the AoE nuke it's fine I guess.

Although I dislike the loss of the intstealing and the silence aura. That was kinda more what made Vindicator what he was than his ultimate.

[Anakha]

Q being annoying tends to be more of a side-effect of attempting to be an ability that takes the teeth out of a kill-lane (and trilanes with its better numbers in dota).

It's eternally frustrating, but it works - but the hero suffers as a result of it either "working or not" - digital effectiveness as PzKw calls it.

The changes to Aura are probably the worst thing to ever happen to the hero, tbh.

The nuke+INT steal makes a less annoying version of Lore, since it directly removes mana potential (will be interesting to see how that's actually played out mechanically; i.e. will it be more like swapping away steamboots from int - or just flat take max mana).
Whether it allows him to control a lane or not will remain to be seen, but I'm unsure it'll keep him out of being a support who needs a solo lane.

[PzKw]

They're taking Last Word off Vindicator?

Ugh.

I never wanted that change, but it's sort of been on the cards forever. The ability is so difficult to balance a hero around. To be perfectly honest, I quite liked it on him, since it had such a strong counter-synergy with pretty much the rest of the hero, while also thematically working and providing a useful capability.

I just get the feeling that S2 doesn't like things being different from a functionally simple norm. Like there's a problem having truly unique capabilities. Sadface.

[skeloperch]

Wait what? The rework was leaked? I need links/summary please.

Anyways, I hope that Smitten eventually gets changed to another skill. It's so bland and worthless unless the enemy carry is stupid enough to forego Shrunken Head.

[Tupimus]

Wait what? The rework was leaked? I need links/summary please.

Anyways, I hope that Smitten eventually gets changed to another skill. It's so bland and worthless unless the enemy carry is stupid enough to forego Shrunken Head.
Not supposed to be used on the carry, unless it's to disable a Nullstone...

[GregerMoek]

Yeah, fixing something that isn't a problem. I guess they are thinking "Hmm, this hero doesn't get picked up, let's make him more normal"

[Hsssh]

They're taking Last Word off Vindicator?

Ugh.

I never wanted that change, but it's sort of been on the cards forever. The ability is so difficult to balance a hero around. To be perfectly honest, I quite liked it on him, since it had such a strong counter-synergy with pretty much the rest of the hero, while also thematically working and providing a useful capability.

What exactly "counter-synergy" means here?


I just get the feeling that S2 doesn't like things being different from a functionally simple norm. Like there's a problem having truly unique capabilities. Sadface.

S2 likes heroes casting skills and comboing them. Vindicator doesn't allow that, removal of his aura sounds like natural solution for this "problem".

[Skyve]

What exactly "counter-synergy" means here?

Probably giving a hero with no innate survivability strong targeting priority.

[Anakha]

They're not removing it, but making it tied to a charge based system that caps at 2sec silence per enemy cast. Charges are accumulated by spellcasts, including uses of W. Aura also would give +as on the same system.

[GregerMoek]

So basically a nerf to his potential against combo-shitcans?

[Anakha]

yup.

[GregerMoek]

Sigh, can we make a protest-list?

[pewpewstar]

Hey it's good for spectators as well! (Apparently ;p)

[GregerMoek]

LOL, yeah "If MK can't get his combo off the entertainment value will be less!"

[GregerMoek]

Seriously I think this is the rework I'll hate most, and hate forever and ever. Even the Kraken one is better.

RRRAAAAAAAGGGEEE

[Skyve]

He was annoying to go against though, and he kinda was a big "stop" to the overall game flow (with his Mana Drain, since no mana = no action).

Just saying :P

[GregerMoek]

Yeah, disables stops action, that's their whole point. Same with all kinds of mana-burn. Puzzlebox.

[Zilrax]

He is annoying yes. But he's not overhwhelming either. I don;t see why we're making a niche hero that has a very useful niche... not so.

[Skyve]

Well, his ability to stop action was particularly high, while stuns usually lead into action, rather than stop it.

The reason they are reworking him (most likely) is because his skills don't necessarily agree too well with each other. I always found that he could be more effective if his int steal and 2nd skill were put onto a different hero and the rest reworked into a "proper" support hero.

[GregerMoek]

Causing someone's initiation or combination to fail usually leads to counter-action from my experience.

Burning someone's mana means they can't cast spells which means Vindicator will deal heavy damage to heroes, I don't see that as action-prevention. It's as action filled as watching a jungler jungle.

[Zilrax]

Well, besides the part where you yell at Vindicator to stop farming and do something. Actually...

[pewpewstar]

True, I can't remember a game in my bracket where a Vindicator didn't go butterfinger ;)

[Anakha]

He slows the flow of teamfights down rather dramatically, which I feel is simply another way of fighting. Soul Reaper is another hero who benefits from dragging a fight out as long as (in)humanly possible, because the compound effects of what Judgment does really add up to significant changes.

[Zilrax]

Yes but slow is bad. Our attention spans won't last long enough if they aren't jangling keys in front of us.

[GregerMoek]

This is worse than EA.

[TRYTROUSERS]

Soul reaper has to have farmed a decent amount of HP and mana to cause a big effect on the game; a vindi sitting behind his team with boots and a power supply can completely take heros like panda, pebbles, mk, chip out of the game without actually doing anything. I think it's cool to have counters in the game, but vindi is probably too extreme in the sense that he either grants you a free win or is completely useless depending on what the enemy picked. He's also probably the worst pub hero to play, being locked into a really boring play style that involves sitting in fog and hitting Q to dominate the first 10 minutes while praying your team mans up for the next 35.

[Shadeward]

Soul reaper has to have farmed a decent amount of HP and mana to cause a big effect on the game; a vindi sitting behind his team with boots and a power supply can completely take heros like panda, pebbles, mk, chip out of the game without actually doing anything. I think it's cool to have counters in the game, but vindi is probably too extreme in the sense that he either grants you a free win or is completely useless depending on what the enemy picked. He's also probably the worst pub hero to play, being locked into a really boring play style that involves sitting in fog and hitting Q to dominate the first 10 minutes while praying your team mans up for the next 35.

Or you could farm up a Tablet and Hex and destroy everything.

[Ctrl_Alt_Del]

Except when you get Hex and Linken's resulting in an almost infinite mana pool.

EDIT: Midgame you should be able to get off 2 - 3 even depending on your items and farming is no issue for Tinker.
You gotta wonder, how would s2 implement tinker into the game in the first place. How could you possibly recreate heatseaker missiles into something elsw

[XFlame]

Meh. If S2 pulls through with this, I'll start using the term 'S2-hero' from that point on. I never particularly liked the term, but the change to Vindicator is simply retarded.

[GregerMoek]

Anyone knows if this was something they come up with themselves or if there are many players behind this in among the SBT's?

I have a feeling they are all a bunch of crybabies who played Panda/Chipper/MK/Torturer/Pyro/whatever and got outpicked and hates the fact that you can get outpicked.

If you don't ban Vindicator if he could be a possible counter to your line-up then you shouldn't whine.

[Skyve]

I think it's more that S2 dislikes situational picks or smth. I'd rather have more situational picks and less universally useful ones, but who am I?

[changlingbob]

Anyone knows if this was something they come up with themselves or if there are many players behind this in among the SBT's?

I have a feeling they are all a bunch of crybabies who played Panda/Chipper/MK/Torturer/Pyro/whatever and got outpicked and hates the fact that you can get outpicked.

If you don't ban Vindicator if he could be a possible counter to your line-up then you shouldn't whine.

This.

[Shadeward]

I think it's more that S2 dislikes situational picks or smth. I'd rather have more situational picks and less universally useful ones, but who am I?

Considering Nigma's ungodly post, I think it's probably more related to the fact that since people have a hard time using Vindicator (no escape mech and stun) AND he can't run around killing people with Chalice and Bottle/Mop the floor with opposing team with HotBL and Sol's Bulward, he was considered obsolete/waste of space.

Anyone who's played (or played against) Vindicator/Silencer in organized games/scrims can tell you his value to the hero pool as he is. I have not a single clue what made them want to change him except the possible one I explained above.

[Antimodus]

They destroyed :vind: because he was the last thing to stand in the way of the :monk:s and the :mida:s and geminis and keeping them from rolling their face on the keyboard to win
HUEHUEHUE
S2'ed

[Launders]

Playing the devils advocate here, Vindicator's aura is an obscenely strong skill, and has an averse affect on more than just combo reliant heroes. I dont think you guys are getting the big picture here.

You get silenced for 3 seconds, simply because Vindicator is STANDING THERE. The only effort required to even make use of the skill would be to put points into it. You, and situationally your team, get 3 seconds of silence for casting a SINGLE spell. This means that you and your team have to be extremely picky and decide which spell(s) have priority and are useful in that given situation. His presence alone limits your ENTIRE team in a literal sense, unlike a Magmus where you have to assume he's hiding somewhere and waiting to blink in and crap all over your team. Vindicator is standing right there, and your options are already slashed in terms of what you can do depending on your team lineup.

To quote one of my favorite Incubus songs:
"On a burning bridge, your options are minimal at best.
Depending on where you're standing
and how much breath is in your chest.
If it came down to it
would you high-tail home and hide?
Or dance on fire and enjoy the ride?"

Sage's Lore is really good against the majority of the hero pool, and straight up destroys some heroes in lane (Sand Wraith).

Incantation allows for good harrass, as well as late game snowballing should the situation allow. Not to mention its TRUE damage and goes through magic immunity.

The ultimate rivals Malphas in terms of counterinitiation on top of the fact that its global.

Taking this all into account it would make sense that Vindicator is extremely squishy, however that is a weakness that can be offset by item pickups.

And by item pickups I dont mean:
Red Boots > Alch Bones > Hellflower

Now I may be a bit biased because I'm a fan of Chipper, but I think that Vindicator is strong, almost broken because as a counter-pick and as a single entity since he forces a gameplay change that is massive and potentially crippling to team lineups, something that could be avoided only by a ban in a BP situation.

[GregerMoek]

However, anti-cc items such as SHRUNKEN HEAD and NULL STONE, are very popular on heroes that doesn't wanna get stunned/silenced during a combo, MK and Panda WOULD GET THESE ITEMS ANYWAYS IN MOST SCENARIOS. Moreover, his aura can be "countered" with silence and hellflower too.

He farms badly and dies quickly without farm. His mobility is not that good either, he rewards good picking and positioning and punishes bads of both of those 2 aspects.
The fact that he isn't isnta-win against any of the combo-heroes makes him a pretty fair hero in my opinion.

Malphas can't be stopped.

You say that his weakness can be offset by item pickups, but so can his strengths by the other team. Sounds pretty fair and balanced to me IMHO, yes this can be said about basically any hero, however Vindi's Aura CAN NOT happen before you use a spell and it's basically you that activate it as his enemy.

[Anakha]

Thing is, Last Word is situationally unfair - yes. What it offers to the game on that hero is just simply too good to ever really tamper with to that extent in this game.

[GregerMoek]

In DotA it gets disabled by stuns along with silences AFAIK. It's more powerful in HoN, but I don't think it's impossible to deal with as the opposing team. Silences/Shrunken will still help and in most games 5 seconds is all you need to deal with this hero. His ultimate can counter this, yep.

Still don't like changing it, I don't like chaaaange!!!1111oneone.
Nerf it's numbers to the same as DotA (3.25sec to 3) or something instead IMHO. But I don't think he even needs a nerf.

[Launders]

However, anti-cc items such as SHRUNKEN HEAD and NULL STONE, are very popular on heroes that doesn't wanna get stunned/silenced during a combo, MK and Panda WOULD GET THESE ITEMS ANYWAYS IN MOST SCENARIOS. Moreover, his aura can be "countered" with silence and hellflower too.

He farms badly and dies quickly without farm. His mobility is not that good either, he rewards good picking and positioning and punishes bads of both of those 2 aspects.
The fact that he isn't isnta-win against any of the combo-heroes makes him a pretty fair hero in my opinion.

Malphas can't be stopped.

You say that his weakness can be offset by item pickups, but so can his strengths by the other team. Sounds pretty fair and balanced to me IMHO, yes this can be said about basically any hero, however Vindi's Aura CAN NOT happen before you use a spell and it's basically you that activate it as his enemy.

When you say Malphas can be stopped, do you mean stopped by things such as immunities? There is no arguing that Malphas is undeniably stronger in that sense, I made the point of Vindi's ult rivaling it because in some cases it is advantageous to have a global silence (case in point being a Tempest or something, or even a buyback to ult) to counter-initiate. Because stopping Malphas would mean preventing HB from even casting it (at least that's how I read it), which, ideally is killing him. In which case it would be considerably harder for gankers/assassins (whose job it is to kill people such as HB/Vindi before the fight really starts; Fayde, Pebbles) to do so because they come with some kind of wombo combo that is essentially crippled because of the aura.

On the topic of him being insta-win vs combo heroes, I'd tend to disagree to some extent. He isnt insta-win, but he definitely sways the tide in his team's favor. If you play Chipper or Bombardier, you cast one spell and have to dance around for 3 seconds, Bubbles can cast his shell but he cant port to it (which I personally think is BS).

[GregerMoek]

When you say Malphas can be stopped, do you mean stopped by things such as immunities? There is no arguing that Malphas is undeniably stronger in that sense, I made the point of Vindi's ult rivaling it because in some cases it is advantageous to have a global silence (case in point being a Tempest or something, or even a buyback to ult) to counter-initiate. Because stopping Malphas would mean preventing HB from even casting it (at least that's how I read it), which, ideally is killing him. In which case it would be considerably harder for gankers/assassins (whose job it is to kill people such as HB/Vindi before the fight really starts; Fayde, Pebbles) to do so because they come with some kind of wombo combo that is essentially crippled because of the aura.

On the topic of him being insta-win vs combo heroes, I'd tend to disagree to some extent. He isnt insta-win, but he definitely sways the tide in his team's favor. If you play Chipper or Bombardier, you cast one spell and have to dance around for 3 seconds, Bubbles can cast his shell but he cant port to it (which I personally think is BS).


Yeah well, I tunnel visioned a bit there. My apologies, and it's definately in most times as useful as that ulti.
Just saying there are means to deal with him and his ult, even Malphas can actually get insta-killed so.

[Launders]

Yeah well, I tunnel visioned a bit there. My apologies, and it's definately in most times as useful as that ulti.
Just saying there are means to deal with him and his ult, even Malphas can actually get insta-killed so.

No biggie <3

[PzKw]

Sigh.

S2 spreading those goal posts like Kim Kardashian's legs.

Edit: is it fair to blame CKMO for this?

[GregerMoek]

Goal posts? What is this ****?

[Skyve]

Sigh.

S2 spreading those goal posts like Kim Kardashian's legs.

Edit: is it fair to blame CKMO for this?

What?

[Anakha]

Goal posts are what you aim between to score. Broadening the goal posts means it's easier to score. Scoring in this case is making a good game. Simple analogy.

[GregerMoek]

I thought it was actually a post somewhere about their goals in design. lulz.

[Anakha]

can mean anything you want it to, really.

[Skyve]

I thought it was actually a post somewhere about their goals in design. lulz.

Yeah, me too. English people and their stupid language :(

[intothebOng]

nerf mage bane~~ this hero is ridiculous

[Shadeward]

nerf mage bane~~ this hero is ridiculous

CC, Hex, Hellflower, there are harder carries, etc.

[ChillyWater]

This is a real noob question but... CC means what exactly?
Other than concede

[Benny0]

crowd control. Refers to things like stuns, silences, slows to an extent, basically things that disable people.

[ChillyWater]

oh ok :) Thanks

[Skyve]

CC, Hex, Hellflower, there are harder carries, etc.

I honestly don't really think there are harder carries, unless you count TDL which somewhat counters him (silence > blink).
His 1.45 base attack cooldown makes him scale extremely well with attack speed/agility, and on top of that he has the bonus damage from his Q, which again scales well with attack speed.

[Ctrl_Alt_Del]

Me and him are the only people who play Maokai in LoL. That's why.
You play LoL? D: was not aware of that. Does chu still play? Do you still play? Add me.

[Anakha]

I honestly don't really think there are harder carries, unless you count TDL which somewhat counters him (silence > blink).
His 1.45 base attack cooldown makes him scale extremely well with attack speed/agility, and on top of that he has the bonus damage from his Q, which again scales well with attack speed.

The hero only really works when he's mobile though. I say this as someone who had an alt with 100% magebane usage when people considered him gutter trash, and the only times people could consistently counter me was when they could remove my mobility and then sweep my team out from under me, or just burst me down with 2-3 full pyro/gauntlet/deadwood combos at a time.

Imagine TDL without her 2 gap closers, and you have a hero similar to Magebane whose extra damage doesnt come from them having the mana to retaliate at least once. Difference is, Magebane has a single point-of-failure like any hero built around blink.

[Skyve]

Well, sure, he needs his mobility. That doesn't make him any less of a hardcarry though.

[Anakha]

The idea behind a hard carry is that they'll just shred a team and end a game past a certain point. Magebane's orb peaks at level 7, Mana Rift will only do so much damage, Blink is hard-countered by the instant nature of blinkhex initiation and the range of sheep/orchid, and aspd scaling through BAT is severely limited by inventory restrictions on him because of a requirement that he cant build pure damage even under favourable circumstances because of such.
He's a midgame carry that snowballs off early survivability that doesn't taper off as quickly as others (zephyr) but needs more help to carry than them.

The hero's greatest strength limits him so hard.

[Bob_Sagtits]

And that is a good thing right? To have heroes who have obvious weaknesses I mean

[Anakha]

Sure. It makes the game less derp.

[Launders]

The idea behind a hard carry is that they'll just shred a team and end a game past a certain point. Magebane's orb peaks at level 7, Mana Rift will only do so much damage, Blink is hard-countered by the instant nature of blinkhex initiation and the range of sheep/orchid, and aspd scaling through BAT is severely limited by inventory restrictions on him because of a requirement that he cant build pure damage even under favourable circumstances because of such.
He's a midgame carry that snowballs off early survivability that doesn't taper off as quickly as others (zephyr) but needs more help to carry than them.

The hero's greatest strength limits him so hard.

He's still viable within his limitations though.

After playing Dota 2 a bit I cant really be sure if he's better with the passive magic resist (in Dota 2) or the mobile Nether Ward (HoN).

[Anakha]

He's still viable within his limitations though.

After playing Dota 2 a bit I cant really be sure if he's better with the passive magic resist (in Dota 2) or the mobile Nether Ward (HoN).

Didn't say or imply he wasn't.

[Cyber_Kun]

Flux got a massive buff.

He can now push/pull allies. This might be the best change ever besides making it also mini-stun enemies.

[Launders]

Didn't say or imply he wasn't.

touché.

[Anakha]

I'm almost 100% certain that was not supposed to be in the retail client. They were not meant to be making any balance changes before DHW.

[skeloperch]

You play LoL? D: was not aware of that. Does chu still play? Do you still play? Add me.

I do play LoL, although I never got to a really high level. I mostly play HoN, same with Chu, but we also like to play LoL from time to time.I believe the farthest I've ever gotten was level 17 or something, but I have played against Flashmetagolem.

[Anakha]

Also, forgot to add: Blink as a concept is incredibly powerful, I think we can all agree on that. Having said that, the measures in the game that are in place to deal with Blink are quite severe, and often ruin the hero's ability to be effective on top of disabling it.
If they weren't, Blink as a skill would be horrendously overpowered for the heroes that had it or could use it.

LoL's Flash is a really good example of this.

[Skyve]

Also, forgot to add: Blink as a concept is incredibly powerful, I think we can all agree on that. Having said that, the measures in the game that are in place to deal with Blink are quite severe, and often ruin the hero's ability to be effective on top of disabling it.
If they weren't, Blink as a skill would be horrendously overpowered for the heroes that had it or could use it.

LoL's Flash is a really good example of this.

Clairvoyance would be a good example too. Providing vision without the requirement of going somewhere or the possibility to deny it isn't exactly that balanced either :D

[Anakha]

So Pharaoh's Tormented Soul is overpowered? ;)

[Skyve]

I was more thinking along the lines of Tundra's Bird, Pharaoh's missile at least has travel time, and is more or less predictable, and doesn't have that huge AoE.

[skeloperch]

The reason CV was bullshit was because is saw through fog and brush, and it had a really low cooldown, and support heroes could get it to check for ganks, which made it almost mandatory. In it's place, Ignite became even more bullshit. Herp derp I can't finish you off, so I'm going to nuke you for a shitton of damage and remove your healing, and then I get bonus damage when it's on cooldown.


Also, CV, Flash, and Ignite are bullshit as they are extra spells, so anyone could have them.

[Juuto]

lol, I just looked at the leaked Vindicator rework. It couldn't be anymore obscenely boring and stupid than what S2 did. I'm just baffled at how unimaginative and cheap it is.

"We want him to carry so we'll rework two of his spells, and make both of them give him attack damage/attack speed and give him an aoe farming tool". Wow lol. Such a rework.

[skeloperch]

NH only is unbeatable. Holy **** this game is hilarious

[GregerMoek]

Nighthound need to get his death ward back.

[PzKw]

Can anyone confirm/deny that
Nome was behind the direction of the Vindi remake?

[Bremm]

:tort:

Yea, one of my favorite heroes' especially before (but somewhat less after) the well-known tweaks. Every now and then I read things like him being so goddamn broken and overpowered, that you're almost inclined to suggest nerfing all of his skills at once. Therefore I'm struggling with proper balance-tweaks...


Since Torts base AGI/AGI gain are pretty high in comparison, why not reducing one of these in order to buff his STR gain a little?

:tort: 23 + 1.7
:defi: 14 + 1.4
:soulr: 16 + 1.5

:doct: 22 + 1.8
:wret: 18 + 2.0

Base armor values not included, and he doesn't really rely on his auto-attack or IAS.

Quoting myself from a very old (1.0.1) thread. And since Chain Reaction now scales both in duration AND radius I'll give Anakha some food :D


Quote from my top secret Balance List that S2 doesn't implement:


:tort: Torturer:

- Chain Reaction cast point to 575ms from 500ms. Total cast time becomes 925ms (from 850ms)

Justification:


Currently, Pyro 450ms cast point, 500ms delay on affector impact, so 950ms total cast time.
Tort has 500ms cast point, 350ms delay on affector impact, so 850 ms total cast time.

So Torturer's stun easiness to land becomes more comparable to Pyromancer.

0 bias when a mechanical approach is used.

By the way, it was 1050ms total cast time before Torturer was changed.

Not enough for a whole discussion, but what do you guys think? Since Impalement or Torment were never the real issue plus Bonds toned down in multiple ways (still a great spell for both harrass- AND farming).

[Anakha]

I hate on Torturer, and yes I agree with that cast point increase (since i've seen it before)

[Hsssh]

After watching dhw casts and replays i started thinking that MoA probably should be played like soft support. He simply fails as carry or even semi carry, his ulti is 9/10 better used on someone else than himself and due to his low mobility and survivability he can't really stay in one place and do damage. Sure if he gets 6 premium items then he rapes people, but someone like DL will rape him harder and even with less items.

In other words bdiz was right: MoA can and probably should be played as secondary support who gets 1-2 items for utility.

[Skyve]

He's just being used too much as a sidelane solo when he's a great mid (cheap spells that can be spammed with rune control). He also doesn't really "fail" as a carry - he carries harder than Arachna at least :D

[Zilrax]

He's better than most ranged carries with no mobility at the moment.

[PzKw]

Can we hate on the Vindi rework some more?

[Anakha]

What more is there to really hate on, other than it being the worst thing in existence?

[Hsssh]

He's better than most ranged carries with no mobility at the moment.

Better than Valkyrie and Shil? K_K

[ChillyWater]

I personally have never(maybe... It's more of a tentative never rather than a definite never) a sil, that has hard carried. Maybe once... ever

[Zilrax]

Valk and Sil have mobility. MoA... I dunno, he falls under that generalist area again like Valk, but he's not as mobile as Valk.

Pretty sure he does everything, he's just not as safe as Valk. So people probably would rather force him into support then have a generalist that has a weakpoint.

[Skyve]

MoA doesn't really need to be mobile. His push is pretty strong and he still has an AoE slow.

Also his ultimate IS mobility :)

But yeah, he needs lvl6 for that.

[Hsssh]

You will use your ultimate 9 times out of 10 for someone else than yourself so it's void point.

Edit:
In teamfights if someone gets jumped or is in the middle of action you'll use shield on him because a) fighting 4vs5 is big drawback b) you want focused ally to survive as long, bait as many abbilites as possible and get off few of his own out.
In laning phase you won't save it for yourself if someone else is getting ganked so often when enemy goes for a gank on you you won't have your ulti ready.
If it's not solo gank and done by competant gankers you won't escape with shield/ms boost or you are hoping that gankers have zero slows/stuns/blinks? Something as simple as Valkyrie's leap will save you more often than his shield/ms boost.

[Skyve]

Didn't say his ultimate was better to escape with than Valks leap, but it's still better than Aluna's escape, and hey, she can decently solo :D

(And escape often enough)

[skeloperch]

Didn't say his ultimate was better to escape with than Valks leap, but it's still better than Aluna's escape, and hey, she can decently solo :D

(And escape often enough)

I wouldn't say his ultimate is better than Aluna's escape mechanism at all.


MoA is fine until Valkyrie gets nerfed. He is a strong generalist, but he isn't the best generalist. He has the worst stun in game (1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8 seconds, huge travel time, disjointable, deals forgettable damage. Basically a worse version of Andro's stun), he has a tapering 1.5 (?) second slow, a single target knock back that deals unimpressive damage, global life saving buffs on a low cool down, and a huge AoE farming tool that really isn't impressive until level 3/4 when you can farm creeps with it. He's a generalist that isn't a fail safe. He's a generalist you have to pick around to get the fullest effect.

He's more balanced than Valk is what I'm saying.

[Shadeward]

I wouldn't say his ultimate is better than Aluna's escape mechanism at all.


MoA is fine until Valkyrie gets nerfed. He is a strong generalist, but he isn't the best generalist. He has the worst stun in game (1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8 seconds, huge travel time, disjointable, deals forgettable damage. Basically a worse version of Andro's stun), he has a tapering 1.5 (?) second slow, a single target knock back that deals unimpressive damage, global life saving buffs on a low cool down, and a huge AoE farming tool that really isn't impressive until level 3/4 when you can farm creeps with it. He's a generalist that isn't a fail safe. He's a generalist you have to pick around to get the fullest effect.

He's more balanced than Valk is what I'm saying.

So he should have a strong stun, strong slow/AoE nuke, a strong knockback, a strong AoE/-amor ability on top of a global ultimate and a DPS boost in either procs or base damage/range increase?

My god. Now, for a hero to be balanced, he can have absolutely everything for the price of a blink/pseudo-blink?

[Launders]

I wouldn't say his ultimate is better than Aluna's escape mechanism at all.


MoA is fine until Valkyrie gets nerfed. He is a strong generalist, but he isn't the best generalist. He has the worst stun in game (1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8 seconds, huge travel time, disjointable, deals forgettable damage. Basically a worse version of Andro's stun), he has a tapering 1.5 (?) second slow, a single target knock back that deals unimpressive damage, global life saving buffs on a low cool down, and a huge AoE farming tool that really isn't impressive until level 3/4 when you can farm creeps with it. He's a generalist that isn't a fail safe. He's a generalist you have to pick around to get the fullest effect.

He's more balanced than Valk is what I'm saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

[TRYTROUSERS]

still think MoA is the worst hero design I've ever seen, with the exception of the laughably broke original tauren chieftan. "hur lets make a hero with 8 bogus abilities, but the balance will be that he can only use 4 of them at a time, just like EVERY other hero in the pool"

[Mediocre]

Maybe its time to revert the walking pugna-ward on magebane... for starters?

Now when the tri-lane meta is gone teams are calling magebane OP. Hes first pick OR banned in every DHW game. He is MUCH better than AM from dota and AM is considered OP in dota2 (which is because he doesnt have so much counters to him yet, such as NA).

I've seen threads under the tri-lane metagame time where people wanted buffs on magebane *sigh* and he recived the un-nessecary aura buff (people wanted more)...

Magebane doesnt need to skill a 3rd skill to get magic armor as AM do... and Magebane will be blinking in teamfights etc so he gets the "same" passive reduction as AM.

The pugna ward is insane, people dont realise how effective it is. It also has huge radius (900), which potentially can cancel portal-keys (for magmus etc..)


People saying AM > Magebane are narrow minded.

EDIT: and yea, magebane's mana-drain isnt an orb (which is.. somewhat ok with me) and it works on illus (which is good for fayde, but bad for anyone facing a magebane who buys geometers)

[Skyve]

I wouldn't say his ultimate is better than Aluna's escape mechanism at all.


MoA is fine until Valkyrie gets nerfed. He is a strong generalist, but he isn't the best generalist. He has the worst stun in game (1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8 seconds, huge travel time, disjointable, deals forgettable damage. Basically a worse version of Andro's stun), he has a tapering 1.5 (?) second slow, a single target knock back that deals unimpressive damage, global life saving buffs on a low cool down, and a huge AoE farming tool that really isn't impressive until level 3/4 when you can farm creeps with it. He's a generalist that isn't a fail safe. He's a generalist you have to pick around to get the fullest effect.

He's more balanced than Valk is what I'm saying.

I already told you that MoA's stun isn't the worst in the game...

It costs 5 more mana on lvl4 of the ability than Andromeda's stun does, 25 less on lvl1 on a hero with higher int gain.
It also has 50 more range on a hero with higher attack range - which brings the overall damage of the ability basically on par with Andromeda's because MoA can get in more auto-attacks than Andro during a stun.

[skeloperch]

I already told you that MoA's stun isn't the worst in the game...

It costs 5 more mana on lvl4 of the ability than Andromeda's stun does, 25 less on lvl1 on a hero with higher int gain.
It also has 50 more range on a hero with higher attack range - which brings the overall damage of the ability basically on par with Andromeda's because MoA can get in more auto-attacks than Andro during a stun.

Andro's stun can still operate well as a one point wonder, and her mediocre range is a balancing point. 50 more range and .05 seconds longer duration on a stun isn't really a benefit, especially considering Andro and MoA function differently. Plus, the travel time on her stun is shorter than the travel time on MoA's stun. Plus, saying that MoA's stun is stronger on him than on Andro is a folly, as she is tankier (all things considered) than MoA, and she functions as a group supporter. MoA does have longer range and +32% base damage, but Andro has the same thing, but in an aura, and it applies to all units. My main point is that Andro's stun is better in general, as it functions as a one point wonder, whereas MoA's is crap unless you pour points into it.

I can't think of an actual 'stun' that is worse than it, unless you want to contend Behemoth's W as a an actual stun. I'm not saying that he needs to have his stun buffed (I already know that having a stun on a ranged carry is a badbadbadbadbad idea, a la Valkyrie), but he isn't as strong of a generalist as Valkyrie.

Also, Launders is another scrub that thinks Valk is balanced and hates on S2 heroes for the same reason he praises DOTA heroes.

[GregerMoek]

still think MoA is the worst hero design I've ever seen, with the exception of the laughably broke original tauren chieftan. "hur lets make a hero with 8 bogus abilities, but the balance will be that he can only use 4 of them at a time, just like EVERY other hero in the pool"

I think the original Invoker was a bit worse.

[Zilrax]

Worst designed hero? I dunno honestly. I think I prefer MoA to Sil, simply because I prefer heroes to have an actual point of failure besides lapse of judgement or lack of competence.

[PzKw]

I think the original Invoker was a bit worse.

Gambler.

Also, I've always felt Magebane was stronger than AM.

[GregerMoek]

Because he can buff his team and has a minor netherward?

BTw, fray (most likely) in the finals, nerf all the heroes they used.
And what hero do you think they'd make an alt avatar for? If the same goes as last year, MSI got Slither.

[Chingizzka]

Null stone is unbalanced... here is situation! :wret: have :Nullstone: ! :deme: removes :Nullstone:! then after 7-10 seconds :elec: holds :wret:! when :wret: holded by :elec:! the coldown of :Nullstone: refreshes! and :wret: goes away...i think they must nerf :Nullstone:! Like that when :wret: holded by :elec: or anyone with holding ability ! coldown of :Nullstone: must freeze...:elec:'s ends...and coldown of :Nullstone: activated again!

[Anakha]

^ You haven't played much HoN.

Magebane gains access to his full magic armour much much quicker than Anti-Mage, and 800 range -castspeed is huge for non-instant disables.

[argnoferich]

Is anyone counting Zephyr's winning rate at Dreamhack?

I'm sure it's disturbingly high... Reason(s): Hotbl in my opinion, I mean if S2 simply made it block only 20 damage when used by agi heroes, I think it would be a little balanced.

[Skyve]

Is anyone counting Zephyr's winning rate at Dreamhack?

I'm sure it's disturbingly high... Reason(s): Hotbl in my opinion, I mean if S2 simply made it block only 20 damage when used by agi heroes, I think it would be a little balanced.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AglVsjMLH9oydGFmNXhWRllPYTZ6cWNQSGpfRVU5V 0E

[argnoferich]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AglVsjMLH9oydGFmNXhWRllPYTZ6cWNQSGpfRVU5V 0E

Guess I was pwn'd by math, nice work whoever is counting but my opinion remains the same, hotbl too stronk

[Skyve]

Well, I didn't make that 100% accurate (8 picks misteriously missing, completely messed up Nymphora (counted 1 game twice apparently, but also messed up her deaths), but ~280 of 290 picks should be displayed accurately.

[Hsssh]

I already told you that MoA's stun isn't the worst in the game...

It costs 5 more mana on lvl4 of the ability than Andromeda's stun does, 25 less on lvl1 on a hero with higher int gain.
It also has 50 more range on a hero with higher attack range - which brings the overall damage of the ability basically on par with Andromeda's because MoA can get in more auto-attacks than Andro during a stun.

MoA stun:
cd 12
mana cost: 85/95/105/115
stun: 1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8
damage: 75/125/175/225

Andro stun:
cd 10
mana cost: 110/120/130/140
stun: 1.75
damage: 100/175/250/325

Mana cost is irrelevant when you realise that Andromeda's aurora and void rip combined costs less than MoA's R before we get level 2/3 ultis.
Only arguable advantage is 50 more range which considering travel time and amount of disjoints can often be a negative thing.

MoA has **** stun, not sure how you can argue otherwise.


Also, I've always felt Magebane was stronger than AM.

AM is easier to play so that might be the reason why everyone considers him stronger.

[Skyve]

Mana cost is irrelevant when you realise that Andromeda's aurora and void rip combined costs less than MoA's R before we get level 2/3 ultis.No, it's hardly irrelevant because it means how active she can be early. And it is a huge drawback for andro, not so much for MoA because he has the bigger mana pool and the lower manacost.

If you can constantly pressure the opposing lane it kinda is a pretty great advantage, and often all you need is a 1 second stun.

[Pork`Chop]

:silh::monk::amun::drun::noma:

These heroes.. All have at least one ridiculous move, and everyone knows it. I play against nomad or mk every second game. I'm getting sick of 1800's just facerolling pubs with nomad. Even if you harass him off and he gets zero farm, at lvl 5 his image half healths you, for almost no mana cost or cooldown.

Ridiculous.

[skeloperch]

:silh::monk::amun::drun::noma:

These heroes.. All have at least one ridiculous move, and everyone knows it. I play against nomad or mk every second game. I'm getting sick of 1800's just facerolling pubs with nomad. Even if you harass him off and he gets zero farm, at lvl 5 his image half healths you, for almost no mana cost or cooldown.

Ridiculous.

That's Nomad's job. He is pretty bad at everything else. Also, NH's blink can often times deal 1/3rd of someone's health and has a 5 second cd. I don't see the problem with Nomad having a killable illusion to deal damage to you.

[Haruhi_sos]

Someone for the love of god please nerf Armadon. The patch a while back to balance him actually made him stronger, now I see him in every game.

He's such a gay hero. You can't kill it because its tank. You can't ignore it because of it's damage output via spines and relentless. You can't chase it because it has its insane movement speed via spines and it will end up killing you by simply spamming W.

This hero is stupid. It's almost like Rampage, once it gets its Q ability on you, you're screwed. I know that a tp stone will save, but in comparison to heroes who you tp from when they hunt you down (e.g. bh, arachna, pred) this hero adds so much to the team.

[GregerMoek]

But he destroys keyboards and mouses.

[nevergg`]

i wish that soulstealer was as effective as he was in beta, all the popular pub mid heroes **** on him nowadays

[pewpewstar]

i wish that soulstealer was as effective as he was in beta, all the popular pub mid heroes **** on him nowadays

Agree, I like the hero's design.

[Skyve]

i wish that soulstealer was as effective as he was in beta, all the popular pub mid heroes **** on him nowadays

Polly is still as strong as he was way-back-when, and he is more or less the strongest mid hero atm :P

[XFlame]

You can't kill it because its tank. .
I heard HoN has heroes designed to destroy tanky heroes.

[GregerMoek]

Spellshards Armadon for less cooldown.

[Zilrax]

And Assassin's Shroud for more survivability!

[commy]

I'm slightly worried that sr hasn't been picked up of late becausehe should be an effective counter to thetanky heroes that keep cropping up. I can only thinks its the combination of a lot of factors - low rangeaura, astro nerf, melee HP regen increase, strong semi carries just being flat out 'better'.

Then again, nomes is a decent sub for astro if not quite as good and I've seen dota games where he goes toe to toe with call no problem. Someone care to enlighten me?

[PzKw]

Most of the tank carries at the moment are built primarily around mitigation, which SR isn't amazing at dealing with. Also, regeneration has generally increased a tonne which decreases the relative value of his aura.

But.

I've wondered the same thing. I called him out as the game's best kept secret when we were verging on the push meta, and I honestly can't formulate a particularly good understanding of why his usage stats suggest he's so bad. He certainly has very well defined weaknesses - he's naturally slow, fragile and lacks disables, but people have consistantly worked around these flaws for about 5 years in DotA and he's remained consistantly middle to high tier the whole time with reasonably little in the way of changes (apart from the never-ending tweaks to his aura that finally settled down a while ago).

Once he gets his core, AFAIK he's the fastest farmer in DotA bar none (except Tinker on a miraculous day), who still sits on the highest CS record for any competetive DotA game. He also carries like a mofo, and will consistantly outcarry so called "hard carries" in the late game assuming his early and midgame went to plan.

I think it might be that he favours a slow tempo, and HoN has a much higher tempo than DotA, but I really don't know. I've been puzzling over it for a long time.

[Shadeward]

Same reason you don't see SS anymore. He's just going to be camped and will take off too slowly. His lack of mobility and CC abilities means he's going to be a liability for too long to be worth the pick.

He's hardly picked anymore in DotA because he's going to get wrecked early. Not to mention Medallion has pretty much rendered tanky carries extinct (his main opponents).

And I still feel that Nome's is subpar. After trying the Nome's build, I actually think HotBL to sheep while picking up vestments on the way is probably the strongest carry build on him without Mek. Maybe Frostfield first against a melee heavy team.

But he's just a hard hero to get to optimal form since the HotBL/Headdress/Bulwark isn't quite efficient and he can't produce Tort's damage output early on. He's just in a bad spot compared to melee tank carries/Int tank-built DPSers.

[Haruhi_sos]

... RAMPAGE.

HI. I'm also as bad as Armadon. I require 3 apm. I aim Q at someone from across the map, I hit them, I press R someone dies. Yay. Once I combo you you have no escape. I will stun you dealing massive damage, stun bash you again dealing more massive damage, I will chain you so you can't move while reducing the cooldown on my bash, I will then stun you again, and then I will charge you once more. I do this entire combo and make sure you can't move for a solid 10 seconds. Oh did I mention I do massive damage and have magic immunity?

I don't care what they do to it as its nerfed. Make it so when you charge you're more susceptible to damage like Pestilence's flight. Make it so that once the enemy team picks up Rampage the concede button is available at 00:00.

[Rkey]

Spellshards Armadon for less cooldown.

Omg yes

[Anakha]

Didn't think Tablet/Void/Stormspirit were so hard to pick up.

[GregerMoek]

Would this game be imbalanced if one could "hard-target"(dno how to put it) someone? As in if you target a unit and press a single target ability the ability will aim at the target you have targeted instead of asking for a target first. Just talking about the option to do so not actually having it as default for players.

[XFlame]

Didn't think Tablet/Void/Stormspirit were so hard to pick up.
Instead of arguing, you should consider (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=290811).

[Anakha]

I get bored and occasionally check people's posts from time to time.

[skeloperch]

I get bored and occasionally check people's posts from time to time.

Have you blocked me yet?

I honestly feel that Swift Blade is under powered. Anyone else? I mean, he's a 'hard carry' without a single stun/slow/mobility spell to his name, he has average movement speed for carry (Scout 315; MB 320; WS 315; Nomad 310; Tremble 310; Kraken 310; Swift blade 305; BH 320; Moon Queen 320), his burst damage is highly situational, he doesn't carry too hard, he is easy to counter all game, and he is stupidly easy to kite. What gives? Can we make him better?

[Hsssh]

I mean, he's a 'hard carry'

o rly?

[PzKw]

Have you blocked me yet?

I honestly feel that Swift Blade is under powered. Anyone else? I mean, he's a 'hard carry' without a single stun/slow/mobility spell to his name, he has average movement speed for carry (Scout 315; MB 320; WS 315; Nomad 310; Tremble 310; Kraken 310; Swift blade 305; BH 320; Moon Queen 320), his burst damage is highly situational, he doesn't carry too hard, he is easy to counter all game, and he is stupidly easy to kite. What gives? Can we make him better?
MK 305, Gemini 300, Chronos 300, TDL 305, SW 295, MM 300, Pred 300, Arma 295, Hammer 295, Tree 300, Pesti 300, Mali 300, Ra 290, DM 300, Glad 300, Panda 295, Lego 295.

I think you just cherry picked the carries with highest MS to try and support what I believe to be an incorrect assertion (and yes, I'm accusing you of something).

Granted, not much in the way of mobility - instead incredible burst, and a lot of immunity to ****...

[pechkin]

ye lets ignore uber ulti, crits and built in barbed armor

[soitcause]

MK 305, Gemini 300, Chronos 300, TDL 305, SW 295, MM 300, Pred 300, Arma 295, Hammer 295, Tree 300, Pesti 300, Mali 300, Ra 290, DM 300, Glad 300, Panda 295, Lego 295.

I think you just cherry picked the carries with highest MS to try and support what I believe to be an incorrect assertion (and yes, I'm accusing you of something).

Granted, not much in the way of mobility - instead incredible burst, and a lot of immunity to ****...

Note, though, that out of all of those only Gladiator doesnt have a gap closer. And even Glad has showdown which'll keep people still while you beat on them. Think that's what he was referring to about the kiting issue. If SB can't catch up, no ulti or spin.

[Skyve]

Note, though, that out of all of those only Gladiator doesnt have a gap closer. And even Glad has showdown which'll keep people still while you beat on them. Think that's what he was referring to about the kiting issue. If SB can't catch up, no ulti or spin.

SB ult does work as a gap closer though to a degree :D

[Anakha]

Have you blocked me yet?

I honestly feel that Swift Blade is under powered. Anyone else? I mean, he's a 'hard carry' without a single stun/slow/mobility spell to his name, he has average movement speed for carry (Scout 315; MB 320; WS 315; Nomad 310; Tremble 310; Kraken 310; Swift blade 305; BH 320; Moon Queen 320), his burst damage is highly situational, he doesn't carry too hard, he is easy to counter all game, and he is stupidly easy to kite. What gives? Can we make him better?

Do you really want an answer to that?

As for Swiftblade, correct facts (even if tunnel-visioned heavily) but flawed basis and thus flawed conclusion. Swiftblade isn't a 'hard carry', insofar as any other midgame snowball carry. Strong spells, static numbers, benefits from a level advantage, only benefits slightly more than most in terms of items when using his main advantages.

[Shadeward]

Do you really want an answer to that?

As for Swiftblade, correct facts (even if tunnel-visioned heavily) but flawed basis and thus flawed conclusion. Swiftblade isn't a 'hard carry', insofar as any other midgame snowball carry. Strong spells, static numbers, benefits from a level advantage, only benefits slightly more than most in terms of items when using his main advantages.

Yup that crit and scaling counter-attack sure don't make him a DPS juggernaut with good farm.

:phar:

[Skyve]

Yup that crit and scaling counter-attack sure don't make him a DPS juggernaut with good farm.

:phar:

Well, compare Swiftblade to Madman who has more or less the same crit and a pretty strong steroid. Already carries much harder.
That was more or less his point - Swiftblade doesn't carry as hard as "real" hardcarries - to a degree it's also because Swiftblade doesn't have it as easy as carries to apply his attackdamage.
I mean you could also say Pebbles is a hardcarry because of his ultimate, which makes him function very well with items that benefit from having high damage (attackspeed, crit, also base damage increase), but since he has no way to actually stay on an enemies ass, he won't carry too hard.

[GregerMoek]

The counter attack also only deals 100% of Swiftblade's Base damage, meaning it scales more poorly than for example crits, attack speed increases or most steroids. Not saying it's bad by any means but still. AFAIK they also removed the proc chance from items on the Counter attack, however cleave will still work. The cleave area will happen somewhere between the target and Swiftblade if it's a ranged attacker far away however. The mechanic of cleave is quite odd and will not center at the landing position.

But I might be wrong.

[skeloperch]

MK 305, Gemini 300, Chronos 300, TDL 305, SW 295, MM 300, Pred 300, Arma 295, Hammer 295, Tree 300, Pesti 300, Mali 300, Ra 290, DM 300, Glad 300, Panda 295, Lego 295.

I think you just cherry picked the carries with highest MS to try and support what I believe to be an incorrect assertion (and yes, I'm accusing you of something).



Legio isn't much of a carry, to be honest.

But that kinda was my point. SB only has average movement speed among carries, and all of those have some sort of gap closer (ranged slow, leap, charge, ms increase, X-Marks-the-spot...). Swiftblade has nothing. He has to get in close to deal any amount of damage, and, even then, he doesn't deal an incredible amount.

@ Anakha:

Swift blade isn't a hard carry per-se, but if you split up carry into hard/soft(semi)carry, he falls into the prior category more often than the latter. His ultimate and Crit are really strong scaling abilities, and his crit is 36% chance at level 4, so I wouldn't say it isn't a proper steroid. He definitely scales better than Chronos (albeit not having a proper gap closer).

I just don't think SB is that good. I mean, coupled with the right heroes he can dominate, but those heroes are themselves OP as well (with the exception of Empath). He is a niche hero whom is very kitable. He's the only hero in this game that suffers from kiting so immensely. On top of that, it becomes increasingly harder to play SB with each additional patch a hero is added with some way to circumvent his spin's damage. Every new hero with a blink/mobility spell/wall/damage mitigating spell nerfs Swifty ever so slightly.

[Anakha]

<pewpewstar> like this is worse than your typical balance forum argument/reasoning
<pewpewstar> it's **** like this that gave birth to invoker
<pewpewstar> ****ing rednecks
<pewpewstar> made invoker

[Skyve]

Swift is great for a dominant lane, can snowball easily, and has lots of earlygame stuff. And he has to "pay" for that by not having a gap closer. Nothing wrong with that.

[ChillyWater]

Who is the best Snowballer and do you think that it is OP?
Cause normally snowballers are ussually STR heroes dw, midas, pebbs come to mind and I think it works fine for them, but agi snowballers im not to sure about because they can still be very powerful late game

[GregerMoek]

<pewpewstar> like this is worse than your typical balance forum argument/reasoning
<pewpewstar> it's **** like this that gave birth to invoker
<pewpewstar> ****ing rednecks
<pewpewstar> made invoker

LOL4char

[Zilrax]

One of these days I'll remember to add that channel onto my mirc.

[PzKw]

Legio isn't much of a carry, to be honest.

But that kinda was my point. SB only has average movement speed among carries, and all of those have some sort of gap closer (ranged slow, leap, charge, ms increase, X-Marks-the-spot...). Swiftblade has nothing. He has to get in close to deal any amount of damage, and, even then, he doesn't deal an incredible amount.

@ Anakha:

Swift blade isn't a hard carry per-se, but if you split up carry into hard/soft(semi)carry, he falls into the prior category more often than the latter. His ultimate and Crit are really strong scaling abilities, and his crit is 36% chance at level 4, so I wouldn't say it isn't a proper steroid. He definitely scales better than Chronos (albeit not having a proper gap closer).

I just don't think SB is that good. I mean, coupled with the right heroes he can dominate, but those heroes are themselves OP as well (with the exception of Empath). He is a niche hero whom is very kitable. He's the only hero in this game that suffers from kiting so immensely. On top of that, it becomes increasingly harder to play SB with each additional patch a hero is added with some way to circumvent his spin's damage. Every new hero with a blink/mobility spell/wall/damage mitigating spell nerfs Swifty ever so slightly.
Do you really still need to be told why he doesn't have a gap closer?

It's because he has the highest damage spell in the game at level 1.
It's because with even moderate support, a pro team will ABANDON a lane against him rather than try to contest it unless they have the right counterpicks.
It's because his "highly situational" burst relies on easily fulfilled situations.

He's hardly FOTM, but he brings plenty of strengths to the table. Why should all carries have gap closers anyway? There's some kind of horrific assumption that underpins that, and I'm pretty sure I've raged about samey heroes in other threads.


Also. Most importantly. Can everyone get out of the habit of throwing out "Ra ra ra is a niche hero." as though it's some kind of a bad thing from a design or balance standpoint? It's pretty much a really good thing unless you follow that statement with "And he can't fulfill his niche, and doesn't have another one he can be used in, and this is because he is too weak (as opposed to others being too strong)."

k?

[ChillyWater]

I thought Tunra's 1st skill had most dmg...

[PzKw]

Lol

Swiftblade's does more at level 1 than Tundra's Q at level 4.

[Benny0]

Lol

Swiftblade's does more at level 1 than Tundra's Q at level 4.

lmao

btw, to people who are saying Swiftblade doesn't have a stun, his ulti does ministun.

And yes, it's only a ministun, but when you're level 16 and doing 8 of them, that's a lot of ministuns.

[Skyve]

lmao

btw, to people who are saying Swiftblade doesn't have a stun, his ulti does ministun.

And yes, it's only a ministun, but when you're level 16 and doing 8 of them, that's a lot of ministuns.

I thought it works like Plague Rider? Ministun on initial cast, no stuns afterwards?

[Imjelly]

I believe the ulti applies a ministun on the first target only, unless I'm mistaken

[Anvy]

^ true dat

[skeloperch]

Do you really still need to be told why he doesn't have a gap closer?

It's because he has the highest damage spell in the game at level 1.
It's because with even moderate support, a pro team will ABANDON a lane against him rather than try to contest it unless they have the right counterpicks.
It's because his "highly situational" burst relies on easily fulfilled situations.

He's hardly FOTM, but he brings plenty of strengths to the table. Why should all carries have gap closers anyway? There's some kind of horrific assumption that underpins that, and I'm pretty sure I've raged about samey heroes in other threads.


Also. Most importantly. Can everyone get out of the habit of throwing out "Ra ra ra is a niche hero." as though it's some kind of a bad thing from a design or balance standpoint? It's pretty much a really good thing unless you follow that statement with "And he can't fulfill his niche, and doesn't have another one he can be used in, and this is because he is too weak (as opposed to others being too strong)."

k?

While it's true that he has the most damage at level one, it's 400 magic damage over 5 seconds that is somewhat easy to avoid. You're forgetting all of the heroes that have escape mechanisms to get away from him. You're overlooking the fact that there are tons of heroes that are strong against him because of that. Also, Voodoo Jester's curse is the most damaging level on skill, being able to put out well over 400 damage with the right setup. I'm not saying he has bad early game, but he just seems lackluster compared to a lot of other heroes, and it's obvious that Valkyrie isn't getting nerfed with DOGKaiser in charge of balance. As I said, the only heroes who can set up a perfect SB spin are overpowered themselves, with the exception of Empath and Voodoo Jester. You can't say a hero is balanced when the heroes they rely on to help them are overpowered themselves. That is just bad design.

Also, am I the only one who finds Rampage underwhelming? He just lacks something that I can't place my finger on. He feels like a crappy version of Pestilence that is supposed to be more reliable.

[Skyve]

While it's true that he has the most damage at level one, it's 400 magic damage over 5 seconds that is somewhat easy to avoid.

Getting hit for 2 seconds already makes it one of the strongest lvl1 spells. And 2 seconds is hardly a long duration. 2.25 and it's on par with the strongest lvl1 spell.


You're forgetting all of the heroes that have escape mechanisms to get away from him.

You're forgetting all those that don't have that, of which there are more.


Also, Voodoo Jester's curse is the most damaging level on skill, being able to put out well over 400 damage with the right setup.

So first you're talking about situational, and then you pull out the most situational damage skill? You could as well use Demented Shamans then for comparison...
Also Voodoo Jesters cursed ground on level one is actually pretty weak (deals ~30% of any damage the target received during the duration iirc, so if you actually deal >400 damage in total with it, chances are your target would be dead quite long before that).

[skeloperch]

Getting hit for 2 seconds already makes it one of the strongest lvl1 spells. And 2 seconds is hardly a long duration. 2.25 and it's on par with the strongest lvl1 spell.



You're forgetting all those that don't have that, of which there are more.



So first you're talking about situational, and then you pull out the most situational damage skill? You could as well use Demented Shamans then for comparison...
Also Voodoo Jesters cursed ground on level one is actually pretty weak (deals ~30% of any damage the target received during the duration iirc, so if you actually deal >400 damage in total with it, chances are your target would be dead quite long before that).

Tort's W. That is all.

[Tupimus]

Tort's W. That is all.
Deals mixed damage, shat on by Swift.
EDIT: You can also split the damage with your lane partner, the creeps or both, doesn't make Torturer immune to magic and doesn't belong to an agi carry with agility armour.

[Tupimus]

Forums are bonkers, editing became a reply. Disregard.

[PzKw]

It also deals less damage at level 1...

[Skyve]

Tort's W. That is all.

300 on lvl1 vs 400...

Also MUCH more situational.