Balance Dump

[Lethe]

Simple. I made a minor mistake though the dps boost from crit is actually 1.28, not 1.24. The difference between twin strikes and a crit like SB's is that twin strikes does not suffer from diminishing returns.

This equiv to 1.25(dps boost from twin strikes)*1.28(dps boost from crit alone)=1.6.

Breaking it down, dps boost on normal attack is 0.8+(0.2*2.4)=1.28.

Dps boost from 2nd attack (assuming level 4 twin strikes) is therefore 1.28*.25=0.32.

Therefore we get a sum of 1.6, implying that every point of damage you get minus proc items is being amplified by 60% once you have crit level 4 and twin strikes level 4.

By comparison, getting crit level 4 on SB would increase his total dps in this context by 53.6%

[Glibber`]

I'm pretty sure though that you can't out-run his attack animation

Bit late response, but I've outrun nomad's illu quite a few times with ghost marchers activated.. So I was wondering a bit about what the properties on it are.


And errr.. the theoretical total damage on gemini.... that will almost never happen... Unless you have someone to stun the target for you for over 5 seconds, since the splitting and the charge are clunky/slow.

[skeloperch]

Honestly, the only problem I have with Gemini is his E, but his E is made up for by his other skills. I mean, his twin strikes is probably the most OP ability in game (bar Warbeast's ultimate with like 50 wolfmen), but all of his other stuff is super avoidable, and S2 made him feel horrible by putting fang on W. Seriously, he feels SO much better with fanq on Q and breath on W.

Gladiator is so annoying to fight. Srsly. The only hero who can push him out of lane easy peasy is Nomad, because if you try to stand between him and a targettable creep, he will Q you (unless he sucks at landing the skill) and kill you. If you try to stand out of the way, you well end up playing ring-a-round-the-rosey with him around the creeps. Even Kraken gets torn up by a good Gladiator. I kinda feel that Gladiator is OP, it's just that some people can't play him well. He's not as easy as Valkyrie, but he can potentially put out more reward than any other hero in the game. Even pre-nerf Ophelia that could control ancients doesn't have the same amount of reward. I like Gladiator, but I haven't lost a single match on my Gladiator only account in-so-far. And it's not just that they're noobs; some of them were very good, it's just that they can't live through 600 damage whips every 4 seconds. Gladi has it all, afterall. He has a long range AoE stun and slow, amazing ricing abilities, a humongous AoE ultimate that makes you a Juggernaut for a couple of seconds, and built in bulk. I mean, he might not as tanky as Devo or Zephyr, but he's got some definite beef. He's also one of the hardest heroes to kite in the game because of X-marks-the-spot. I've fought Valkyrie's, Hags, Repulsors, Bubbles, and Flints, and none of them could kite me to death. His only downside is that he becomes easier to fight once you get Shrunken Head, but he is still a pain with those 600 true damage whips.

Tl;DR: Good Gladiators are OP. Agree/disagree?

[Lethe]

I dunno, the key to soloing against Gladiator is to bear in mind the cooldown of his whip. I have always found it easier to play aggressive against him, which should give you a clear edge until at least level 5.

By the time he hits level 7 it's very hard to lane against him but by that stage laning usually breaks down anyway.

Gemini has insane dps potential thanks to E. Once people begin picking up the holy trinity (charged hammer, savage mace and riftshards) they will realize just how much dps this hero is capable of.

[china]

I think the design of a number of S2 heroes are breaking the game.

[Imjelly]

would of thought they'd make his E a proc chance rather than a one point wonder

[HahaYouDied]

I think the design of a number of S2 heroes are breaking the game.

The number of S2 heroes that are just about to kill you without you being able to do anything is getting pretty ridiculous.

You get people like Deadwood, Chipper, the new fayde, tremble and to a further extent rampage. They are counterable but much harder to do on a non-competitive tier basis, despite that most of these heroes can kill you with ease (and you can't do much to stop it once they've jumped on you) if they have a brain.

The only Dota counterpart I can think of that instashots easy would be pebbles, and he at least needs either a invis/haste, a pk, or when ganking, come around from behind (in which case you can just juke around or else he cant combo).

I get that they are trying to promote the ganking metagame, but eh.....

[Dawnbringer]

The number of S2 heroes that are just about to kill you without you being able to do anything is getting pretty ridiculous.

You get people like Deadwood, Chipper, the new fayde, tremble and to a further extent rampage. They are counterable but much harder to do on a non-competitive tier basis, despite that most of these heroes can kill you with ease (and you can't do much to stop it once they've jumped on you) if they have a brain.

The only Dota counterpart I can think of that instashots easy would be pebbles, and he at least needs either a invis/haste, a pk, or when ganking, come around from behind (in which case you can just juke around or else he cant combo).

I get that they are trying to promote the ganking metagame, but eh.....
:souls: :witc: :pyro: :blac: :thun: :behe: :fayd: :moon:

I mention Fayde because she is all but Nerubian Assassin.

[skeloperch]

The number of S2 heroes that are just about to kill you without you being able to do anything is getting pretty ridiculous.

You get people like Deadwood, Chipper, the new fayde, tremble and to a further extent rampage. They are counterable but much harder to do on a non-competitive tier basis, despite that most of these heroes can kill you with ease (and you can't do much to stop it once they've jumped on you) if they have a brain.

The only Dota counterpart I can think of that instashots easy would be pebbles, and he at least needs either a invis/haste, a pk, or when ganking, come around from behind (in which case you can just juke around or else he cant combo).

I get that they are trying to promote the ganking metagame, but eh.....

Valkyrie, Hag, (farmed)Gladiator, Thunder Bringer, Behemoth, Huskar, Tuskarr(WALRUS PUNCH), Pyromancer, Ursa, Blacksmith, and many more.

[china]

:>>>

[Juuto]

these escape mechanisms are obscene as ****.

like umm...

[skeloperch]

these escape mechanisms are obscene as ****.

like umm...

:dead: :silh: :bloo:(kinda) :doct: :monk: :trem: :mali: :swif: :magm: :magm: :wret: :myrm: :mage: :phar: :madm: :bubb: :wild:(kinda) :mida: :krak: :scou: :pand: :geom: :noma: :dark: :sand:

It's a part of the game, yo. If a hero doesn't have mobility, they are boring, or they are Devourer. Mobility is fun, it increases the importance of crowd control, and it makes competitive play more interesting. I have nothing against heroes with escape mechanisms, but I do have a problem with heroes that have 451+ range and a mobility spell, namely Valkyrie, Hag, Bubbles, and DR. Those heroes are complete and utter bull **** and should get slammed into the dumpster harder than King Raven does.

[TRYTROUSERS]

I don't know how anybody can think that this trend of "blink on everything" is healthy for the game. All it is doing is watering down the strategy because a) every other hero can now put themselves in a retarded position and blink over trees or a cliff to get away b) the only thing you can do to stop it is to chain stun and c) most of the heros with reliable stuns are pretty low-skill intestive and dull (witch slayer and hammerstorm for example). For all the game people talk about LoL being lame with every hero flashing away from everything, this game plays EXACTLY the same way now.

[Bojangles15]

Who says you have to win games by catching one person out of position and effectively winning the team fight because it's already 4v5? Isn't it more fun when people live by a shred of life because of a clutch play and can still have an impact on the fight? Turn around into turn around into turn around. Guess it sucks if you only want to have to play well for 3 seconds at a time but is awesome for anyone who can manage to concentrate longer =/. I'm blown away at the way pro teams play, and it's a hell of a lot more fun than watching Chronos annihilate the enemy inside Sphere after afk ricing for 68 minutes.

[ChillyWater]

Or how about replacing Geo's ulti with Ancient Apparition's ulti from Dota? *ninja9

I must admit that I never played Dota and I have only ever seen the Tournement (a while ago) of DotA 2. But when I saw Ancient Apparition I liked him... I would like to play him in HoN.

[HahaYouDied]

:souls: :witc: :pyro: :blac: :thun: :behe: :fayd: :moon:

I mention Fayde because she is all but Nerubian Assassin.

I cant argue against int nukers like pyro, witch, but its the more dumbing down of the whole hero as a ganker is the point im trying to get across. Try dodging a fayde combo, or even better, try dodging a tremble combo, once these guys have you on the hook it gets pretty difficult to counter. But you can at least make an attempt to dodge soulstealers hands, valks arrow, pyros stun, blacksmiths ult doesnt 4x every time, stay around creeps with moon queens ult etc so that they dont kill you every time.

[HahaYouDied]

But then again, if these heroes were any weaker, they wouldn't get picked at all. :/

[ChillyWater]

The Game

:scou:

[Hsssh]

How Tremble is killing people without them being able to do anything?

[Dawnbringer]

Nerubian Assassin is basically Fayde HahaYouDied. Except the mana burn is 10x gayer lategame v.s. int heroes and 3rd skill > Fayde's third skill.

[Skyve]

I must admit that I never played Dota and I have only ever seen the Tournement (a while ago) of DotA 2. But when I saw Ancient Apparition I liked him... I would like to play him in HoN.

Pretty sure AA would easily be horribly OP in HoN. He's already more or less borderline OP in DotA.

[Dawnbringer]

If S2 created AA as a HoN original hero the community would chuck a spaz. I am glad that he isn't in HoN and hope that he never will be >:/

[Launders]

I have to peel my hand off of my face when I play against Kraken because I'm usually at a loss for words with how stupid he is in his current state.

[Dawnbringer]

The -1 armor was pitiful :(

[Juuto]

:dead: :silh: :bloo:(kinda) :doct: :monk: :trem: :mali: :swif: :magm: :magm: :wret: :myrm: :mage: :phar: :madm: :bubb: :wild:(kinda) :mida: :krak: :scou: :pand: :geom: :noma: :dark: :sand:

It's a part of the game, yo. If a hero doesn't have mobility, they are boring, or they are Devourer. Mobility is fun, it increases the importance of crowd control, and it makes competitive play more interesting. I have nothing against heroes with escape mechanisms, but I do have a problem with heroes that have 451+ range and a mobility spell, namely Valkyrie, Hag, Bubbles, and DR. Those heroes are complete and utter bull **** and should get slammed into the dumpster harder than King Raven does.

Except when everybody has a god damn crazy good escape mechanism, ganking happens less, and the game is 100x less fun.

Tremble doesn't really have that much. Swift kinda, sorta works. A lot of those are stretches, but the point is, there are plenty of heroes without real escape mechanisms that work perfectly fine.

Escape Mechanisms definitely do not make the game more fun. It just means that you need like 4 ****ing people to gank an S2 hero.

[Hsssh]

It just means that you need like 4 ****ing people to gank an S2 hero.

You need 4 people to gank Warden...?

[skeloperch]

Except when everybody has a god damn crazy good escape mechanism, ganking happens less, and the game is 100x less fun.

Tremble doesn't really have that much. Swift kinda, sorta works. A lot of those are stretches, but the point is, there are plenty of heroes without real escape mechanisms that work perfectly fine.

Escape Mechanisms definitely do not make the game more fun. It just means that you need like 4 ****ing people to gank an S2 hero.

And you have no problem with Valkyrie, Hag, Bubbles, DR, Magmus, or Sandwraith?

As I said, it increases the importance of crowd control. If no one had an escape mechanism, :chip: would be top dog. If everyone had an escape mechanism, :poll: would reign supreme. I find that HoN has a nice balance of escape mechanisms so that Chipper isn't completely useless, and disablers still have a purpose.

Besides, a lot of S2 heroes have escape mechanisms that follow pathing. I don't think that makes them too bad.

[Juuto]

And you have no problem with Valkyrie, Hag, Bubbles, DR, Magmus, or Sandwraith?

As I said, it increases the importance of crowd control. If no one had an escape mechanism, :chip: would be top dog. If everyone had an escape mechanism, :poll: would reign supreme. I find that HoN has a nice balance of escape mechanisms so that Chipper isn't completely useless, and disablers still have a purpose.

Besides, a lot of S2 heroes have escape mechanisms that follow pathing. I don't think that makes them too bad.

... Did you kind of not see the part where I ****ing said "too much escape mechanisms" cause a problem?

Also, if you haven't realize by now, Hag has to get to very close range to use one of her nukes, and she is squishy as hell. It's not surprise she has a blink. Magmus is a squishy melee hero and Sand Wraith is a hard carry with absolutely no early game.

Again, I don't know why I have to re-state this but the problem isn't that escape mechanisms exist, too many of them exist.


You need 4 people to gank Warden...?

Sigh, this was referring to the ones with the crazy good escape mechanism. But nice reading comprehension.

[Kumduh]

I wanted to cry playing Pharaoh when half the heroes I isolated just magicked their way out of mummies :(

[skeloperch]

I wanted to cry playing Pharaoh when half the heroes I isolated just magicked their way out of mummies :(

I wanted to cry as Pharaoh when Kraken pushed heroes out of my mummies ;-;


Pharaoh is still pretty rape, though.

[Hsssh]

Probably if more heroes weren't introduced with mobility skills then Pharaoh would have been nerfed by now.


Sigh, this was referring to the ones with the crazy good escape mechanism. But nice reading comprehension.

I guess you shouldn't call them S2 heroes then because lots of dota heroes are harder to kill than majority of new s2 heroes.

[Juuto]

Probably if more heroes weren't introduced with mobility skills then Pharaoh would have been nerfed by now.



I guess you shouldn't call them S2 heroes then because lots of dota heroes are harder to kill than majority of new s2 heroes.

The point is that they are introducing MORE and MORE heroes now that have crazy good escape mechanisms. It doesn't matter if Dota had/has more, the point is that they are introducing more and more. Ridiculously good escape mechanisms are best kept at a low number.

See recent S2 heroes: :myrm::reve::mast::drun::amun::krak::geom::monk: :silh::para::alun::mida::noma:Gemini

[Ekamo]

The point is that they are introducing MORE and MORE heroes now that have crazy good escape mechanisms. It doesn't matter if Dota had/has more, the point is that they are introducing more and more. Ridiculously good escape mechanisms are best kept at a low number.

See recent S2 heroes: :myrm::reve::mast::drun::amun::krak::geom::monk: :silh::para::alun::mida::noma:Gemini

Please share these "ridiculously good escape mechanisms" that :alun:, :noma:, :reve: and :mast: have.

I would diiiiiie to know that.

[Skyve]

Please share these "ridiculously good escape mechanisms" that :alun:, :noma:, :reve: and :mast: have.

I would diiiiiie to know that.

To say nothing about Parasite or Drunken, and even Midas' isn't that great, since you can stun him out of it (you basically can't use Midas' 3rd ability against a farmed Flint afaik).

[Hsssh]

At least he didn't mention Rhapsody there.

[Dawnbringer]

inb4 Morphling... or Batrider, or Weaver, or Darkseer, or Ymir, or Akasha (since hag is a dota port), or Antimage (magebane but passive spellblock is sex), or PotM (valk), or Furion, or Void, or Windrunner, or Storm Spirit, or Meepo, or SK.

And there are probably heaps I have forgotten too.

[CpK_Echo]

Every time I go against Ra i want to rip my hair out

[GregerMoek]

I think Dampeer could use a mechanic similar to Hatchet's when it comes to his essence gathering.
When used on creeps or neutrals it has a 10seconds cooldown, when used on heroes 30.

This might make him OP as he gets "staying power" in drawn out team fights I guess...

Either that or something similar to Bloodhunter, that it leaves a debuff on the target if it does not kill, that is, if the target dies with said debuff Dampeer gets essences.

I just Played Dampeer and won!!!!!!

[Zilrax]

You won?! I don't believe you. Dampeer can't win, it's not possible. Must be trolling.

[PzKw]

Dampeer is like... Too homo to be worth buffing... When they fix his dumb**** concept I'll be in favour of making him viable...

As I've always said, he's Bloodseeker if S2 made him... AOE, pseudoblinks, nukes, some carry capability... All on a solid base of homo...

[GregerMoek]

If I got to design a hero she/he'd probably be pretty lame too. Cause I like features such as manaburn/drain and silence more and more for every escape ability there is. Stuns are lame, silence is the ****.

[Hsssh]

As I've always said, he's Bloodseeker if S2 made him... AOE, pseudoblinks, nukes, some carry capability... All on a solid base of homo...

He shares like zero similarities with him ffs.

[pewpewstar]

They're both vampires? ;)

[Zilrax]

If I designed a hero, it would probably be even more brainless than EW. Except as a support. Q would ward for you, e would heal stuff, w would stun someone and r would make the enemy rage on command and try to dive into your fountain.

Kinda like Tundra, but with a heal.

[GregerMoek]

I would make a hero that has an ultimate that grants you the ability to give gold to others. Cool right? No more dispute about kill stealing, the gold could go to ze carry instead.

Oh and his other abilities would be single target nukes specifically designed for kill stealing, while another one grants immunity on allies for 2 seconds but disarms and silences them.

[pewpewstar]

Reposting what I said in the 'Design your ultimate hero' thread which magically disappeared from the C&C forum

ELEPHANT CHARGE x 4

RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Skyve]

Reposting what I said in the 'Design your ultimate hero' thread which magically disappeared from the C&C forum

ELEPHANT CHARGE x 4

RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Still want my Scout Q, Puppet E, Gemini E, Pebbles ult hero :(

[PzKw]

He shares like zero similarities with him ffs.
Yeh. None at all.

...

[Ekamo]

I really think her strength is simply in her consistency to perform well, rather than her capacity to reach a great ceiling. Even in hard games, she can still do extremely well. Really don't find her broken :< o well. All I play is warbeast anyways.

The more thought I put into this statement, the less I can agree with it.

Let's just think about it. Two out of her four abilities thrive on opponents being at a disadvantage, both in terms of gold and map control. You won't land any arrows vs any competent team with a huge map control advantage, unless they like running into arrows. The only way to land an arrow vs a team with much vision is to have a hero to pre-disable the target for you. Typical examples of this are :doct::hamm::magm: which are very common to pick up in conjunction with :valk:, just for this specific reason.
When her team is at an advantage though it is much easier to land arrow after arrow, since the opponents can't see them coming when they lack map control. Many times with a hero that does the pre-disable for you this is a surefire 5 sec stun - no questions asked. But also when the enemies supports have farmed important items like Tablet and Stormspirit, this type of initiation gets countered more and more. If her team is winning though, they delay the buying of such items further and further which makes her arrow if so much more dangerous.

Her ultimate is extremely strong when the opponents simply can't afford putting counterwards wherever you want to farm or can't afford/can't hold a Bound Eye. It is one of the most scary abilities to go up against when you are losing, but also one of the most easy to counter when winning since it doesn't give any extra advantages than simple invisibility.

Valkyrie puts fear into opponents, simply by being on the map.

What can be concluded from this?
I would say a hero like :valk: THRIVES on being at an advantage, since that opens up so many new advantages for her. You could say that every hero is better when winning, but :valk:'s effectiveness simply skyrockets at this point and deserves every comment that people have about her being OP, since at this point you arrow is in fact a 5 sec stun, and not a "maybe 5 sec stun" that it turns into in most games. On the contradictory, when she is losing she isn't bringing a whole lot to the table VS COMPETENT TEAMS. We have all seen those 5 sec arrows that turns games that shouldn't be able to be turned, but in most competitive games this isn't allowed to happen.
When at a disadvantage she is turned from a monster that excels at everything to simply a highly mobile 300 AOE nuke. Nothing more.

If you compare this to a very similar hero in their playstyle, in this case :alun:, you notice that all in the aforementioned rant about :valk:, doesn't apply to her. She will still always have a pretty reliable stun, and a long range nuke that doesn't need to put her out of position. She is still a valuable asset to the team. On the contradictory when her team has an advantageous position she still brings the same things to the table, with no extra perks other than straight up more farm.
She doesn't EXCEL in winning situations like :valk:, and that is something I never hear when having balance discussions about her.

She is very much a jack of all trades, and when simply looking at what she can do in an optimal situation she looks extremely strong. What never is brought up though is that in most cases this isn't the case. She will miss arrows. Her ultimate will be countered. Her leap will be predicted and pretty much worthless many times.

And on the other side of the spectrum she will dominate a lot of games - and that is simply how she is designed as a hero. I think it is fair to say that :valk: haven't been picked up as much lately than if you compare to maybe 6 months ago.
Is there a reason for that or is it just competitive players not realizing how strong she actually is?

Personally I think it is a combination even though I do not feel :valk: is a huge issue at the time. I have simply seen her be worthless on a high level of player too many times to think so, compared to heroes like the pre nerf :keep: who always seemed to perform well, no matter what.

And no, I never played Dota and couldn't care less about her balance in that game. I am NOT saying "Valk is balanced cuz she balanced" so don't even try that on me.

[Denord]

Delete parasite now. Had it with public games getting ruined by parasites RAPING half my team that cant deal with him. If not give him a pushing ability and a carry ability so we can comence and bring him to oblivion with nerfs after the rage storm. ****ing low risk high reward bullshit jungling burst hero!

[skeloperch]

Delete parasite now. Had it with public games getting ruined by parasites RAPING half my team that cant deal with him. If not give him a pushing ability and a carry ability so we can comence and bring him to oblivion with nerfs after the rage storm. ****ing low risk high reward bullshit jungling burst hero!

Parasite is **** when compared to Prophelia, sorry. If you've seen a good Ophelia, you won't bother whining about Parasite again. Parasite has mediocre burst and relies heavily on his team to pull of early ganks, and he doesn't even scale that well.

[Zilrax]

Parasite is threatening? News to me. I find him more irritating. Stealing the buffs I painstakingly place on allies.

[Skyve]

Parasite snowballs really well though. He could even carry if he had more mobility.

[skeloperch]

Parasite snowballs really well though. He could even carry if he had more mobility.

Not with being melee. I mean, his 27% damage steroid is stronk, but then again, Ophelia also has a 'steroid' that is ranged and 28% and slows.

[Dawnbringer]

24% damage steroid.

Also, Ophelia > Parasite. She may not be able to nuke people down as fast but her pushing power is unrivaled. With Bulwark and 3 minions, she outpushes even Keeper.

[ChillyWater]

Parasite is **** when compared to Prophelia, sorry. If you've seen a good Ophelia, you won't bother whining about Parasite again. Parasite has mediocre burst and relies heavily on his team to pull of early ganks, and he doesn't even scale that well.

This I don't like :madm:
I kinda wish HoN's metagame would evolve to deal with such heroes (maybe even imbalances).

[HungryGandhi]

I had a red partyhat a while back

[Dr_Hobo`]

Blue party hat > Red.

[Tiinu]

Christmas cracker > all rares

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[skeloperch]

24% damage steroid.

Also, Ophelia > Parasite. She may not be able to nuke people down as fast but her pushing power is unrivaled. With Bulwark and 3 minions, she outpushes even Keeper.

Why stop at three? Get a whispering helm, 3 catmen, a wolf, and a snotter and you're the ultimate tower killing hero.

[ChillyWater]

I had a red partyhat a while back


Blue party hat > Red.


Christmas cracker > all rares

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

lold @ all



Why stop at three? Get a whispering helm, 3 catmen, a wolf, and a snotter and you're the ultimate tower killing hero.
Why not 3 mino's? I love Oph but I couldn't (and haven't) played her

[skeloperch]

lold @ all



Why not 3 mino's? I love Oph but I couldn't (and haven't) played her

Because 6 seconds of stun is worthless if you can't deal any damage (to towers, atleast). Catman is usually the best mob to get for his insane damage output, and his high damage AoE slow. Skeleton King can suffice in place of a minotaur with his ministun. Vulture Lord kinda sucks. Vagabond helps yous beat up Kongor. Wolf gives you a massive + damage aura. Snotters give you movespeed. Don't grab anyone else*.

*: Unless you don't have PR and want Ice Ogre.

I'm an avid Ophelia player, it's just that I'm not too great at microing the Zerg Swarm I amass.

[ChillyWater]

Because 6 seconds of stun is worthless if you can't deal any damage (to towers, atleast). Catman is usually the best mob to get for his insane damage output, and his high damage AoE slow. Skeleton King can suffice in place of a minotaur with his ministun. Vulture Lord kinda sucks. Vagabond helps yous beat up Kongor. Wolf gives you a massive + damage aura. Snotters give you movespeed. Don't grab anyone else*.

*: Unless you don't have PR and want Ice Ogre.

I'm an avid Ophelia player, it's just that I'm not too great at microing the Zerg Swarm I amass.

Thanks :) Though a friend of mine get whispering helm to block creep waves.... Then unleashes all hell

[Ekamo]

No PzKw, China or Anakha response to my Valkyrie rant?

I have succeeded at life!

[Sudigummi]

tremble seriously needs a buff, hes utterly useless and is never picked though hes an immensely fun hero to play.

[ChillyWater]

tremble seriously needs a buff, hes utterly useless and is never picked though hes an immensely fun hero to play.

No... No... No... Tremble does not need a buff!
He is a powerful carry regardless of how much he is picked.

[skeloperch]

No... No... No... Tremble does not need a buff!
He is a powerful carry regardless of how much he is picked.

Oh bull ****. Valkyrie can outcarry him.

[ChillyWater]

I honestly believe that tremble doesn't need a buff... Regardless who can out carry him within the right line up Tremble can be a powerful, game changing carry (as all should be)

[changlingbob]

Oh bull ****. Valkyrie can outcarry him.

....

[Dawnbringer]

Why stop at three? Get a whispering helm, 3 catmen, a wolf, and a snotter and you're the ultimate tower killing hero.
Except by the time you get both the snotter and wolf (5 minutes extra for both, not including time required to farm helm) people will be nuking down all your effort. Also pushing wise, Bulwark will aid in terms of pushing far more.

[skeloperch]

Except by the time you get both the snotter and wolf (5 minutes extra for both, not including time required to farm helm) people will be nuking down all your effort. Also pushing wise, Bulwark will aid in terms of pushing far more.

Barrier Idol



I honestly believe that tremble doesn't need a buff... Regardless who can out carry him within the right line up Tremble can be a powerful, game changing carry (as all should be)

He isn't so much of a carry as he is a ganker. He doesn't even have a steroid (his E can only be applied once every 2 seconds). Albeit he is a really strong solo ganker, he can't kill more than one person at a time due to being prone to CC, and once you disable him, he can't catch back up.

[Skyve]

I hate Ra :(

[skeloperch]

I hate Ra :(

Yeah, he is a jerk to fight if he gets levels over you. My suggestion is to pick up Predator and kick his dick in. He can literally do NOTHING to you while you chomp his ass back to the grave. If you are unfortunate enough to have to lane against him, make sure you avoid his stuns. They are really easy to dodge because of the huge ****ing warning they give you. Fun to animation cancel, though.

[PzKw]

Just flicking through the GR usage stats (lol at their interpretation of a specialist) and parasite has 86% usage but 22% wins. Lol.

These stats can be hard to use though. They don't tell you what a team sacrificed in order to get some of these god tier heroes.

[Skyve]

So, why is Myrmidon not picked up much anymore? He's a pretty strong hero, not even too bad of a solo (and if you have a jungler like Parasite that ganks, you can easily get 1-2 kills everytime) - and is still a great support, even when not tri-laning.

[Tantolos]

Low range. And people got used to the magic carp and in most cases avoid the stun. Also he seems to have a worse midgame/lategame usefulness than other supports(e.g. vodoo)

[Skyve]

His ult is really, really strong, he has 2 slows (ult and 3rd skill), 2 stuns, and high survivability (for a support hero).

The only problem he has would be the range, but unlike andromeda, his skills do have really high range to make up for that somewhat.

[Ekamo]

Neither Andro or Myrmidon are picked for 2vs2 lanes since their range really cripples them. Simple as that, doesn't matter how strong of a skillset they got.

[ChillyWater]

Neither Andro or Myrmidon are picked for 2vs2 lanes since their range really cripples them. Simple as that, doesn't matter how strong of a skillset they got.

You sound like you are switched on.... Please enlighten me on when they would be used :andr: :myrm:

[Ekamo]

You sound like you are switched on.... Please enlighten me on when they would be used :andr: :myrm:

Still strongest trilane heroes in the game :)

[PzKw]

No PzKw, China or Anakha response to my Valkyrie rant?

I have succeeded at life!

Wait. Where!?

[Ekamo]

Wait. Where!?

I win!

[Dawnbringer]

Barrier Idol

/snip

The gold you spent on Whispering + Barrier would be far better spent on getting a lvl 3 pbox. Or a Bulwark and lvl 1 pbox which you would then upgrade.

Why would you get whispering helm when someone else on your team who could actually make use of the lifesteal/armor etc portions of it could get it?

EDIT: For general knowledge, he/we were refering to Ophelia.

[PzKw]

I win!
Now that you linked me it, it's because I didn't disagree with any of your observations, just the conclusion you drew from them.

[Ekamo]

Now that you linked me it, it's because I didn't disagree with any of your observations, just the conclusion you drew from them.

And that is the interesting part. No comments on my conclusion then?

[PzKw]

And that is the interesting part. No comments on my conclusion then?
The fact that Valk can lose, and that there are more overpowered heroes than her doesn't mean that she's fine as she is. The argument has always been that on an absolute power scale, Valk sits right at the first point that you can clearly gesture at and say "That's ****ed. It's too strong, and heroes shouldn't be able to do the things she can."

[PRETENT10uS]

re Ekamo: arguing that a hero is deadweight/bad when your team is losing is...pointless? Silly? Not really sure how to describe it.

It'd be like saying Magmus or Behemoth are bad heroes because if your team is losing they'll have tons of trouble getting a pkey.

[XFlame]

I think Deadwood needs a buff. Just not sure how to do it without making him retarded.

[skeloperch]

I think Deadwood needs a buff. Just not sure how to do it without making him retarded.

Auto attack removed. Ulti scaled to 1000/2000/3000 True damage. Fixed?


Can we get a rework on Legionnaire finally? Pretty please? Atleast a minor buff to his whirling blades? Yesterday I raped the **** out of him as Dampeer because my auto attacks gave me more life than he could take away.

[Skyve]

I just played Windrunner, and god, I missed Aluna's ult :(

But still, >3 second semi-skillshot stun and windrunn is sooooooo good.



I think Deadwood needs a buff. Just not sure how to do it without making him retarded.

For starters, he needs a new ultimate. Like no damage, reduces strength by 50% and stuns, instead of what it does now, that kinda would help him not being viable lategame A TON.

[Ekamo]

re Ekamo: arguing that a hero is deadweight/bad when your team is losing is...pointless? Silly? Not really sure how to describe it.

It'd be like saying Magmus or Behemoth are bad heroes because if your team is losing they'll have tons of trouble getting a pkey.

It is?

So a heroes true balance can only be seen when both teams are completely even?

I do not agree since I think the power level of a hero is dependent on how well the hero performs and contributes to the team on AVERAGE in most games.
Not the game where there hero performed best, neither where it performed worst but the AVERAGE. And what I basically said is that Valkyrie on average isn't this OP "can-do-everything" monster I have seen people refer her to a lot of times. The sum of her performance in a lot of games where she is played in is usually simply... average.

[PRETENT10uS]

No, my point is that when your team is doing bad every hero looks bad. Because that's what happens when your team is losing. You don't get the money you need, heroes can't do what they are supposed to do, etc.

Much like how 1-sided stomps make heroes look overpowered.

Also, I don't agree that Valk is so much weaker than comparable substitutes when her team is behind. Whether or not you get 5 second arrows has to do with your team composition and coordination (does Valk have someone to set her up consistently) - it's not determined by map control. Even without support, Valk should still be able to get 1-3 second arrows relatively easily.

You also seemed overly dismissive of her ultimate, as well. Yes, it's counterable, but every rev ward the enemy team is forced to pick up is 100 gold they could have spent elsewhere.

[Ekamo]

No, my point is that when your team is doing bad every hero looks bad. Because that's what happens when your team is losing. You don't get the money you need, heroes can't do what they are supposed to do, etc.

Much like how 1-sided stomps make heroes look overpowered.

Also, I don't agree that Valk is so much weaker than comparable substitutes when her team is behind. Whether or not you get 5 second arrows has to do with your team composition and coordination (does Valk have someone to set her up consistently) - it's not determined by map control. Even without support, Valk should still be able to get 1-3 second arrows relatively easily.

You also seemed overly dismissive of her ultimate, as well. Yes, it's counterable, but every rev ward the enemy team is forced to pick up is 100 gold they could have spent elsewhere.

So you would say a Valkyries ability to turn the game is comparable to an Aluna that is trying to turn a game? Does she still have her core strengths that she so much relies on to be effective?

And tell me what those 100 gold better could be spent on then making sure you don't f-ed in every teamfight?

[skeloperch]

So you would say a Valkyries ability to turn the game is comparable to an Aluna that is trying to turn a game? Does she still have her core strengths that she so much relies on to be effective?

And tell me what those 100 gold better could be spent on then making sure you don't f-ed in every teamfight?

:BoundEye:

How do you guys feel about giving ranged heroes miss chance/% lowered damage based on how far their projectile has traveled? Like, at 600 range a projectile has 50% chance to hit, at 300 it has 100%, and at 900 it has 0%? Do you think that it would over nerf some ranged heroes, or would it bring some in line?

[Dawnbringer]

It would overnerf some that didn't need it. Also that would completely defeat the point of picking a ranged hero. It would be retarded. So no, that shouldn't ever happen.

[GregerMoek]

Your latter point is the most valid one.

[PRETENT10uS]

So you would say a Valkyries ability to turn the game is comparable to an Aluna that is trying to turn a game? Does she still have her core strengths that she so much relies on to be effective?

And tell me what those 100 gold better could be spent on then making sure you don't f-ed in every teamfight?
Valkyrie's pretty good in situations where her team is doing poorly. She can farm safely because of Leap and she can farm quickly because of Starfall.

She's probably comparable to Aluna. Aluna can stop pushes and turtle really hard with Power Throw, but Aluna is much more vulnerable when she leaves the safety of the base because Deja Vu is much weaker as an escape.

I'm not saying the 100 gold could be better spent elsewhere, but my point is that having a Valkyrie forces people to spend 100 gold (fairly often) to not get murdered in a teamfight, and yet you seemed very dismissive of the skill.

[MKMaxthrotle]

zephyr is to good early game he dont need farm and can win 1v1 any time

[skeloperch]

It would overnerf some that didn't need it. Also that would completely defeat the point of picking a ranged hero. It would be retarded. So no, that shouldn't ever happen.

Alright, how about it's based off of the distance between you and the target when it connects? That way heroes like Silly Hat and Flint can't always kite you from max range. They have to get up close and personal to start a fight. Some ranged heroes (DR, Hag) already do this, and the only heroes it would really affect are some support heroes.

[Dawnbringer]

No, that idea won't be implemented. There are other ways of reducing ranged/melee imbalance.

[Skyve]

That manacost nerf on tundra feels a bit too high :(

Should have been somewhere between 30-40 if anything.

[Juuto]

I don't get what the Nymphora nerf is supposed to do besides make her very slightly less stronger when she's apparently God Tier... She's supposed to be getting much larger nerfs than that.

[ChillyWater]

That manacost nerf on tundra feels a bit too high :(

Should have been somewhere between 30-40 if anything.

They nerfed tundra.
I am :madm:.

[iamjerry]

what the **** nerfing mk..

[china]

y no new balance mod?? y forum suck??

y u all fail application?????/?

[Reldnahc]

y no new balance mod?? Y forum suck??

Y u all fail application?????/?

y u no answer

[china]

I think Repel should be made to grant +1000 magic armor to the target, and rebuffed to a 20 second duration, 20 second cooldown. That way you can stunlock targets, though it'll deal them no damage. It can also be seen as a rework, in that although the skill is nerfed by allowing stuns, it is also buffed by allowing some spells to be irretrievably wasted on a target essentially immune to spell damage. :> I'd like that a lot more than the current iteration but what do I know.

[Skyve]

I don't get what the Nymphora nerf is supposed to do besides make her very slightly less stronger when she's apparently God Tier... She's supposed to be getting much larger nerfs than that.

The only skill she has that's too good is her ult though. I personally thought it should be 120/90/60, but w/e.


I think Repel should be made to grant +1000 magic armor to the target, and rebuffed to a 20 second duration, 20 second cooldown. That way you can stunlock targets, though it'll deal them no damage. It can also be seen as a rework, in that although the skill is nerfed by allowing stuns, it is also buffed by allowing some spells to be irretrievably wasted on a target essentially immune to spell damage. :> I'd like that a lot more than the current iteration but what do I know.

Funny, because when I suggested a hero who's ult "split" him and made one half immune to physical damage, and the other immune to magic damage (<- main body), with a shared health pool (so damaging one = damaging the other) people were immediately saying that it was OP and made the hero unstoppable (even though the hero was more or less a hardcarry with no great nuking potential early, safe for one skill that dealt ~200 bonus physical damage).
^ I want that in the game, was something original.

Also here:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=353344
Something new and original :D

[china]

The only skill she has that's too good is her ult though. I personally thought it should be 120/90/60, but w/e.



Funny, because when I suggested a hero who's ult "split" him and made one half immune to physical damage, and the other immune to magic damage (<- main body), with a shared health pool (so damaging one = damaging the other) people were immediately saying that it was OP and made the hero unstoppable (even though the hero was more or less a hardcarry with no great nuking potential early, safe for one skill that dealt ~200 bonus physical damage).
^ I want that in the game, was something original.

Also here:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=353344
Something new and original :D

Suggestion plug-in.

Heathen. Only I am allowed to engage in such sinnery.

[Skyve]

Heathen. Only I am allowed to engage in such sinnery.

Hush. You no longer reign here.

[Bojangles15]

y no new balance mod?? y forum suck??

y u all fail application?????/?

It is pretty funny isn't it. Half a dozen common poster here all tried to get mod and none succeeded. On a related note, I miss the golden era of Balance with China modding. qqq

[Skyve]

I haven't applied to be mod yet.

But I'm afraid of IRC. It's the work of the devil :(

[Ashitaka]

Am I the only one bothered by Bubbles' nerf to his shell? It no longer hits units behind him, so his initiation Behe-style only deals damage to the front and it's much harder to farm with him (attack camp, give back to its creeps, throw shell to another camp, wait for all the creeps to be together, use song of the sea).

He's always been my favourite hero so I may be biased here but I hated this change. I know you're supposed to be ganking, not farming, blah blah whatever. Am I really the only one who noticed this?

[skeloperch]

QQ. Nymphora has always been my favorite support hero. First they came for the stun and I said nothing because the stun was pretty bull ****. Then they came for the heal, and I said nothing because I was not a support player. Then they came for the mana and I said nothing because I was not a support player. Then they came for the ulti, and there was nothing left to defend her because it had all been nerfed.

Srsly. Turn her heal back to the way it was before that one second load time or whatever. I prefer my 360 heal with huge AoE and long detonation time to this new crappy one. Oh yeah, and make the stun go out faster, remove the damage, and lower the mana cost. I want original Nymphora back :(


Zephyr changes I'm impartial to because I don't stomp with him anymore, Ra changes were lol, MK changes were pretty significant. MoA changes were a step in the right direction. Hag changes were weird, to say the least. DM changes were saddening. Parasite changes feel weird to me, because outside of competitive games, he is one of the worst heroes out there (Slow, single target, low damage). Polly Wog changes were well deserved. No Valkyrie changes put her even farther into broken territory. No Kraken changes yet Zephyr, DM, and Ra got nerfed. Tundra nerf was well deserved, if not a little harsh.

Yeah, some of S2's balance decisions are bull ****. I haven't felt that a patch was this much of a downer since the Electrician shield change. Oh yeah, and Elec got nerfed this patch too. It's like S2 are purposely making heroes have no competition in their role (Kraken, Valkyrie, Magmus). If Ice Frog starts balancing the game a little more like he has been in the past couple of patches, I might just switch over to DOTA2 for real. At least there some heroes have competition for top dog in their role.

[Skyve]

It had a 2.5 second timer with the 360 heal/damage and was really horrible to land.

[Juuto]

Original Nymphora had more flavor definitely. This one feels like the "fun" was compromised for being a ridiculously strong her, and for that, I am not appreciative.

I like how the stun is very good and hard to hit now. But i just wish the heal had flavor. It's just boring.

[ElementUser]

Am I the only one bothered by Bubbles' nerf to his shell? It no longer hits units behind him, so his initiation Behe-style only deals damage to the front and it's much harder to farm with him (attack camp, give back to its creeps, throw shell to another camp, wait for all the creeps to be together, use song of the sea).

He's always been my favourite hero so I may be biased here but I hated this change. I know you're supposed to be ganking, not farming, blah blah whatever. Am I really the only one who noticed this?

Yes.

It was a bug.

[Bojangles15]

I thought this patch was awesome with lots of good changes across the board. Lots of stat changes which I'm all for, and no knee-jerk, unnecessary garbage. I'm looking forward to a few weeks of similar patch notes.

[Skyve]

The Tundra manacost change kinda is big :(

[Bojangles15]

I honestly thought the vision radius was more significant, but I don't ever play him, so I'm not sure how mana changes affect him. I know it was super cheap before, so you could keep it up pretty much 24/7. The double nerf will be interesting, could completely trash the hero since pets is arguably his best skill.

[Skyve]

Well, the vision change was needed though.

[skeloperch]

It had a 2.5 second timer with the 360 heal/damage and was really horrible to land.

It wasn't that hard to land. In fact, I think it's a bit harder to land now. Team mates won't know where it's at and run right out of the radius, and the detonation is so short that they can't get back in. I liked her the way she was before they over buffed her stun, then nerfed everything that was good about her except her ultimate and mana, and now they nerfed her ultimate too. It's sickening to watch what has been happening to Nymphora. She is a very niche hero and only really good in a dual lane metagame, but there are better dual lane supports (:deme: :jera: :vood: :rhap: come to mind). The only thing she really had going for her over other supports was her mana heal and her ultimate. Now I can't honestly say that I would prefer her ultimate over, say, Jereziah's or Martyr's ultimate. 90 seconds of CD is really harsh, especially considering she only has to combative spells, and both of those are stupidly slow/weak. I know Pit Lord had the same ability, but he was actually able to FARM and be useful. Nymphora? Slow, decent range stun, slow crappy heal nuke, decent mana pump and movement speed buff, and a group TP stone every 90/75/60 seconds. Nymphora is just a shadow of her former self, and she really doesn't look like a viable choice over other dual-lane support heroes.

Now that that is done with, when can we see a nerf to Valkyrie, Kraken, Magmus, Pebbles, and Midas? Everyone else is getting nerfs, which brings them more into line, but these few heroes haven't been touched and still remain the top of the top. This game can never be good if S2 nerfs one hero and lets another offender go free. Everyone of these heroes has had their competition nerfed, and yet they received no nerfs. It's getting to the point where S2 are just nerfing FOTM heroes instead of heroes that actually need a nerf.

[Bojangles15]

I was actually hoping for a nymph ult buff. Her stun and heal offer a retarded amount of disable and nuke which, when coupled with another reliable stunner, can all but guarantee a kill. Combined with a 60 second CD on ult meant she could, theoretically, put any hero on the enemy team, in vision, in direct threat of dying every minute. No amount of warding can counter this, and it forced players to farm in groups or risk dying. The cooldown needed to be changed at low levels.

[jellYMADness]

I hate how tremble rapes scout in mid.

And damn balphagore shits on everyone with his q ability so bad he can take half ur hp plus he got 50% more health than you.

[Gropemaster]

lets put a carry in the game that has double the range of all int heroes, passive mini-stuns, a slowing nuke, and witchslayers ult but triple the range and half the cooldown

:flin:

[Skyve]

lets put a carry in the game that has double the range of all int heroes, passive mini-stuns, a slowing nuke, and witchslayers ult but triple the range and half the cooldown

:flin:

Pretty sure it's more like 1/8th the cooldown (160 vs ~20?)

[Benny0]

lets put a carry in the game that has double the range of all int heroes, passive mini-stuns, a slowing nuke, and witchslayers ult but triple the range and half the cooldown

:flin:

If he just had Sniper's nuke, he'd be in so much better of a spot...

[PzKw]

Quitting smoking is going well, but my tolerance for bullshit is waning. Fast. Apply some harsh moderation to the forum before I crack!

[TRYTROUSERS]

so uh... wheres the kraken nerf?

[Launders]

ra got tickled by the nerfbat

[Skyve]

ra got tickled by the nerfbat

Not like he's OP.

I still hate him though :(

[Dawnbringer]

just gonna put it out there we now have a #balance channel on irc.

simply open irc, connect to the S2 server and type /join #balance

That is all, good day :). Please note this channel will be no cakewalk. I will be cracking down hard on people who make retarded comments/troll. Soapz will back me up on dis.

[Ekamo]

just gonna put it out there we now have a #balance channel on irc.

simply open irc, connect to the S2 server and type /join #balance

That is all, good day :). Please note this channel will be no cakewalk. I will be cracking down hard on people who make retarded comments/troll. Soapz will back me up on dis.

I've heard from pretty reliable sources though that a Balance Mod is on the way :)

[Ashitaka]

Yes.

It was a bug.

ElementUser answered me *gasp*!

Hey, haven't you ever heard "it's not a bug, it's a feature?" :P I really liked that aspect of Bubbles' shell but oh well. I guess you'll never revert it back to what it was :(

[GregerMoek]

Pretty sure it's more like 1/8th the cooldown (160 vs ~20?)

And it's like 1/5.5 the cooldown if both level 16.

[Bleeding_Me]

Pretty sure it's more like 1/8th the cooldown (160 vs ~20?)

I still can't believe the cd on flints ult hasn't been nerfed. CD is 10 seconds at level 3. 10 seconds lmao. Singled dumbest spell in HoN IMO. I understand the mana cost is kinda high but late game you can spam it pretty easy.

Compare it to Pyro and Witch.

Level 2 Deadeye is 505 superior magic for 275 mana and a 15 second cd.

Level 2 Blazing strike is 675 magic damage for 420 mana and a 90 second cd.

Level 2 Silver Bullet is 650 magic damage for 420 mana and a 90 second cd.

Obviously level 3 Blazing strike and Silver Bullet take a much larger jump in damage but you can see my point. Lets not forget the 2k range at level 2 Deadeye vs 600 and 700 for Pyro and Witch.

Oh yeah, there's also a .2 second stun, which Witch and Pyro don't have.

[Zwox]

Flint's range should be maxed out by default, and the range passive replaced with a 2,000 range blink that does a 5 second stun on landing, and his ultimate should turn his entire team invisible.

[Frogmunster]

I still can't believe the cd on flints ult hasn't been nerfed. CD is 10 seconds at level 3. 10 seconds lmao. Singled dumbest spell in HoN IMO. I understand the mana cost is kinda high but late game you can spam it pretty easy.

Compare it to Pyro and Witch.

Level 2 Deadeye is 505 superior magic for 275 mana and a 15 second cd.

Level 2 Blazing strike is 675 magic damage for 420 mana and a 90 second cd.

Level 2 Silver Bullet is 650 magic damage for 420 mana and a 90 second cd.

Obviously level 3 Blazing strike and Silver Bullet take a much larger jump in damage but you can see my point. Lets not forget the 2k range at level 2 Deadeye vs 600 and 700 for Pyro and Witch.

Oh yeah, there's also a .2 second stun, which Witch and Pyro don't have.

It would be OP if Flint didn't to way more damage with his regular attacks lategame.

[Skyve]

It would be OP if Flint didn't to way more damage with his regular attacks lategame.

That makes no sense.

Why would it be OP if Flint was weak lategame?

[Benny0]

That makes no sense.

Why would it be OP if Flint was weak lategame?

He's saying it's like Archer's old ulti. His autoattacks do far, far, far more damage than his ulti could ever hope to do when he's level 16.

Give him the dota nuke.

Seriously. His nuke is way, way, way too good to be sitting on a hard ranged carry with over 800 range. Fix that and so many things will fall into place.

[Skyve]

Well, in DotA the nuke is so weak that you basically level his passives over it.


He's saying it's like Archer's old ulti. His autoattacks do far, far, far more damage than his ulti could ever hope to do when he's level 16.

I guess that's possible, but at the same time, his ult can easily be used for harass.

[Frogmunster]

That makes no sense.

Why would it be OP if Flint was weak lategame?

Right, derped there.

What I'm saying is that if you have a Flint who spams the nukes instead of actually carrying you ahve a bad Flint.

My point was that it's meaningless to compare his ult to Witch and Pyro since, he'll outdo them in damage even without the ult.

[Bleeding_Me]

Right, derped there.

What I'm saying is that if you have a Flint who spams the nukes instead of actually carrying you ahve a bad Flint.

My point was that it's meaningless to compare his ult to Witch and Pyro since, he'll outdo them in damage even without the ult.

How is it meaningless? He has an ult that rivals Pyro's ult, and Pryo is a dedicated nuker. Flint has two pretty ridiculous nukes and he's a ranged hard carry. Of course he's not gonna be using his ult much late game when he's farmed. Early/Mid game it's pretty damn lame however when he can stand by a tower and pick people off from 2k away, or stand at his tower and harass you with a 500 damage nuke that has a 15 second cd.

With maxed flare flint can do 800+ burst damage pretty early on in the game. All of it while standing 600 - 800 units away.

[Shadeward]

How is it meaningless? He has an ult that rivals Pyro's ult, and Pryo is a dedicated nuker. Flint has two pretty ridiculous nukes and he's a ranged hard carry. Of course he's not gonna be using his ult much late game when he's farmed. Early/Mid game it's pretty damn lame however when he can stand by a tower and pick people off from 2k away, or stand at his tower and harass you with a 500 damage nuke that has a 15 second cd.

With maxed flare flint can do 800+ burst damage pretty early on in the game. All of it while standing 600 - 800 units away.

Would be fine if Flare was the same as Shrapnel.

[Psionic]

Any idea why there is no way to get an assist out of Master of Arms ultimate ? since the assist change most buffs give you assists when your
protègè get kills under its influence: Demented, Jereziah, Martyr.
Kinda strange an ultimate (!) that potentialy turns around fights all over the map doesnt get any reward.
Would it give MoA to much gold due assists from his low cd ult ( throwing it into every fight at the map just to get credit ) ?
:mast:

I could see that, seeing how much :magm::valk::dark::wret::mage::doct::andr::bubb:
thrash MOA. His stun is easily disjointed (It's even slower than :andr: comet) and it's his only real disable, forcing you to now rely on his now shooting at invisible targets or targets that are not there or targets with a stun still ready with your straight-down-the-line-oh-wait-it-forked-once slow.

He's made to take out paper heroes without escape mechanisms like disjoints and blinks. A.K.A. none of the new heroes and none of the heroes commonly called upon in higher tier play.

What he needs in the buff department is that stun made faster.
The ult thing might help too. Just saying.

:blac:

[Benny0]

Well, in DotA the nuke is so weak that you basically level his passives over it.



I guess that's possible, but at the same time, his ult can easily be used for harass.

Well, that's almost my point. Both of his passives are very good abilities, along with his ulti, so really, his nuke SHOULDN'T be better than them. Regardless, his nuke is extremely good area denial and works as a pushing skill, so it's not like it's bad in the end, it's just nowhere near as good as Flare, which is how it should be.

And yeah, his ulti still has many many many uses, but I don't think it's going to be used on CD, really, and even as such, he doesn't have mana to keep that up, even with his high int gain.

[TRYTROUSERS]

for for thought: is it time to add a real anti-tanking item into the game? this used to never be an issue in dota where tanky heros generally didn't contribute much damage late game, but I feel like ra/ctulu/drunken/kraken don't really have too many counters outside of the first 20 minutes of the game. i mean if you catch a DL or MQ when their shrunken is off cooldown, they still die in one stun, but these tanky DPS heros often require an entire team beating them down because of their escape moves and aoe splash damage.

shieldbreaker is supposed to be the answer, but they haven't really fixed the fact that it becomes pretty useless late game when most heros pack 10-15 armor, and essentially a waste of 5200 gold if someone happens to grab a demonic. essentially it's a pub stomp item that's mostly effective when you are ahead and going to win anyway. i'd like to see either a maldred's razor type item, or a -% armor item that can remain useful past the 20 minute mark.

[GregerMoek]

Or just more heroes like SS, Pred and Slither. ^^ And not pebbles-bursters, aoe-cleansers or lolmotrons.

[Dawnbringer]

/snip
this used to never be an issue in dota where tanky heros generally didn't contribute much damage late game
/snip.
Centaur begs to differ, and spectre and a lot of other heroes tbh.

[GregerMoek]

Centaur the boss.

[ChillyWater]

So... I need a pro's opinion. Or someone smart.
Is Emerald Warden OP? Why? And if yes what can be done to get around this

This is part of a conversation with my brother. Please enlighten :smile:

[GregerMoek]

LOL.

I personally don't think he's OP, just plain dull to play and play against. With that said he's very easy to play effectively against bad people, thus making him look OP from their POV. Same goes with Skillblade and DW really. Well, I don't think Skillblade is dull so that was a lie I guess.

[Dawnbringer]

Rampage thread in balance again and guess who is posting.

-.-

[Skyve]

Can someone make a bloodhunter thread so we can finally look forward to a rework?
I'm too lazy atm to type out anything about him being inferior to any hero with similar roles (Dampeer, Valk are better gankers, and translate into stronger carries, while Silhouette and Soulstealer are better carries that can still gank more effectively than him), and he really has nothing going for him apart from the fact that he's a great solo and nearly impossible to harass, which is where a rework should start imo.

[XFlame]

BH has been 'reworked' by s2 before, they didn't change much. I think even S2 knows that BH is just beyond salvageable.

Edit: wordfilter on forums are retarded.

[GregerMoek]

I don't see the "great solo that is impossible to harrass" as a bad thing.

Bring back true damage on ult
Bring back 15seconds silence!

[Skyve]

I don't see the "great solo that is impossible to harrass" as a bad thing.

I ment that they should base his rework around that, you know, just keeping his ability to be annoying to go against in lane, but remove the ult and silence, and maybe even his vision (although I like that skill, so I'd keep it).

[GregerMoek]

Sorry I misunderstood you then. ^^

[Skyve]

Yeah, I worded it horribly :P

[Benny0]

I don't see the "great solo that is impossible to harrass" as a bad thing.

Bring back true damage on ult
Bring back 15seconds silence!

Why on earth would you want him to go back to not being able to ulti people with Shrunken Head on? They even buffed the damage so it's still high with magic armor...

And no, if this hero is going to be made into a viable manner, he should not have a 15 second silence. Might as well just port Doombringer if we want that crap in HoN.

He needs a real carry steroids in place of his nuke. Or to not silence himself, or something. Feast, Blood Sense, and his Ulti are all very good abilities (no, I don't care that his ulti is countered by TP stone, so is Arachna's, and don't tell me Arachna's ult is a bad ability).

[GregerMoek]

Can still be superior magic y'know. I didn't mention anything about being unable to use it on magic immune targets.
He can get nullfire and purge off negative/positive effects of that spell nowadays. In his former self he was used once or twice against DR. Nowadays I see him less often and with less success, even in "pro games".

I agree with your last point however, it's not a useless spell, by that logic Predator, Madman, Slither or Forsaken Archer also have useless abilities.

[Skyve]

I don't think his ult is a good ability. It's kinda one thing that's limiting him, because it's not a proper ganking tool, and it's not really useful for anything else either.

[GregerMoek]

Punishing movement I guess is a bad thing, especially in team fight where everyone moves around pretty much.

[Skyve]

Pretty sure a good long duration single target immobilize would overall be more useful than what he has.

[GregerMoek]

Sure, however there are so many disables already on basically every hero, this is a soft one with damage added instead. It's quite the unique ability and that's mostly why I'd still want to keep the idea.

I remember the good old days when you simply died if you used TP when you had Stryg's ult on you, or blinked.

[Benny0]

I see his ulti as something that vaguely works as a disable early on, but it's real point is that in team fights later on, when so much is going on, you pop it on the carry or something, and basically say "you want to move and autoattack people? Enjoy dying!" It's really meant to play off the chaotic nature of team fights.

Or something like that. Obviously at higher levels when people know what's going on better, it doesn't work that well, but still, popping it on their carry is very very effective.

Superior Magic with True Damage would be awesome though.

[skeloperch]

I've made like 2 or 3 threads about why BH sucks and how to fix him. First step is to combine W and E, and make them less effective. 2nd step is the give him a new Q and W, keeping his design, but removing his annoying silence and giving him more active utility. Third step is to readjust his starts accordingly. Done. Fixed. Perfectly fine hero.

[PzKw]

Or you could just numbers buff BH's gains until he can function as a carry.

Or change his passive to a BAT reduction instead of an IAS increase.

Or tweak the properties (radius, clearvision, truesight, truesight radius?) on his sight so that it's useful for more than running someone down for an easy kill.

There are plenty of things you could look at doing to make BH more viable in his niche (making him viable outside of it is undesirable) before looking at actually remaking one of his abilities...

[skeloperch]

Or you could just numbers buff BH's gains until he can function as a carry.

Or change his passive to a BAT reduction instead of an IAS increase.

Or tweak the properties (radius, clearvision, truesight, truesight radius?) on his sight so that it's useful for more than running someone down for an easy kill.

There are plenty of things you could look at doing to make BH more viable in his niche (making him viable outside of it is undesirable) before looking at actually remaking one of his abilities...

He doesn't have an IAS increase, adding extra properties to Blood Sense would make it OP and make him even more imbalanced, and making him have more uses in his niche is desirable. He still will be that faggot that runs you down because you're on low health, but he won't silence you forever and is a genuine threat.

[PzKw]

Wait. It doesn't add IAS?!

I could swear it used to...

Anyway. Point is, there's plenty of options that don't involve completely reworking the hero, which I still feel to be undesirable...

[Dawnbringer]

It doesn't add IAS, never did.

I do remember in dota when his ult worked on blinked/ported distances. That was huge. We could implement something similar but add a "capped damage per instance" so if you blink across the map you won't die but if you blink say... 1000 units you will take a capped amount of damage based on blink distance that doesn't go above a threshold.

*shrugs* I still think he is a garbage hero in general. Can't gank well enough or carry hard enough and yet tries to do both hence failing miserably.

[pewpewstar]

^ agree, just dumb concept of a hero. I'd be more worried at nerfing the OP heroes though ('nuff said).

[XFlame]

I'm going to dump this here: I think Tablet is a horrible item, providing a utility that is broken from the basic design itself.

[skeloperch]

^ agree, just dumb concept of a hero. I'd be more worried at nerfing the OP heroes though ('nuff said).

Meh, I'd rather bring the bottom tier heroes up to a higher level while nerfing the top tier heroes to a lower level.

Anyways, has anyone noticed how most heroes with a silence are generally bottom tier? :bloo: :nigh: :balp: Scout :emer: and Vindicator are all pretty low tier. The only heroes with a silence that are used competitively are Parasite and Bubbles, and they aren't used for their silences. Is silence really that bad, or are the heroes with silences bad?

[Skyve]

Nighthound isn't bottom tier, and never really was.
Balph is in a pretty good spot now, being used in NASL even before his buff, and even EW has been used competitively and is decent - a bit underwhelming, but not "bottom tier".

[skeloperch]

Nighthound isn't bottom tier, and never really was.
Balph is in a pretty good spot now, being used in NASL even before his buff, and even EW has been used competitively and is decent - a bit underwhelming, but not "bottom tier".

I still don't think Balph is fine because Keeper does what he does but better. Nighthound definitely was never bottom bottom tier, but he's pretty low. Everything he does another carry does better. EW really doesn't have much going for him. Sure, he's better than Arachna as a ranged semi-carry, but other ranged semi-carries beat him out EZPZ. His low skill cap means his potential isn't high enough to be considered a staple hero pick when you have heroes with low risk and higher reward (:corr: :mast:)

[Ogrim]

Posting in the dump before making thread:

New shield breaker is sorta OP. Being able to obtain it so early in the game makes other items not always worth getting (insanitarius, whispering helm...)

It is also in my experience, incredibly powerful on ranged carries, a much better attack modifier than an eventual FWS given the recent changes to that item in favor of Str.

[Skyve]

Well, it took the competitive scene long enough to realize how good it is, but yeah, a small cost increase (somewhere between 100-500 on the recipe) wouldn't be too wrong imo.

Although, I will say that with Sol's Bulwark being a cheap early armor item (together with RotT it's +8 for your team) it's not really a big problem.

[PzKw]

Posting in the dump before making thread:

New shield breaker is sorta OP. Being able to obtain it so early in the game makes other items not always worth getting (insanitarius, whispering helm...)

It is also in my experience, incredibly powerful on ranged carries, a much better attack modifier than an eventual FWS given the recent changes to that item in favor of Str.
You know the balance forum called that SB was going to be the new stupid item when they made it, but there was a clear need to address the Cane Beetles which were a pest to the crops. Although they could have been dealt with directly, it was clearly felt that introducing a new and more powerful counter to them was necessary.

Also, next week there's going to be a counter to it introduced. Stay tuned.

[Vermillion_]

Hmmm can't wait to see what kind of genetically engineered virus will be made to counter the cane toads :p

Inb4 item that makes you immune to attack modifiers or reduces the chance of being affected by them. (By the way I'm going to laugh hysterically if an item that does that is ever created)

[Anakha]

Good to see this place has devolved significantly in my 2 weeks of absence.

Also:

http://sentientsec.org/~anakha/balancemustsuffer.png

Fat ****ing chance as long as the moderation of this forum continues to hold me to a standard above all others, and then subsequently punish me on minor ****ing technicalities that nobody else would get an eyebat at.

**** you, you know exactly who you are.

[Hsssh]

Well lets hope that Ekamo will manage to fix this please at least a bit.

[Vermillion_]

Good to have you back Anakha, Grats on dawn and Ekamo for getting to be the new mods :D

[pewpewstar]

GO AUSSIES, one forum at a time

[PzKw]

I'm so cut. My drunken application which read more like a CV written by a power tripping faggot didn't get me through the door.

Son. I am disappoint.

[Vermillion_]

Actually Pew pew, I noticed this as well, there is a relatively decent amount of Australians posting in here.

[SmurfinBird]

Good to see this place has devolved significantly in my 2 weeks of absence.

Also:

http://sentientsec.org/~anakha/balancemustsuffer.png

Fat ****ing chance as long as the moderation of this forum continues to hold me to a standard above all others, and then subsequently punish me on minor ****ing technicalities that nobody else would get an eyebat at.

**** you, you know exactly who you are.

This makes me laugh.
:blac:

[Lethe]

mod is overrated.

I gave up my position in like 3 weeks when things were good

[ElementUser]

Good to see this place has devolved significantly in my 2 weeks of absence.

Also:

http://sentientsec.org/~anakha/balancemustsuffer.png

Fat ****ing chance as long as the moderation of this forum continues to hold me to a standard above all others, and then subsequently punish me on minor ****ing technicalities that nobody else would get an eyebat at.

**** you, you know exactly who you are.

Well, you do have a ton of infractions.......the point of those is to get people to improve their posting habits.

And no it wasn't me, but just saying.

[china]

ElementUser is the second best moderator. :>

[Anakha]

Well, you do have a ton of infractions.......the point of those is to get people to improve their posting habits.

And no it wasn't me, but just saying.

4 words, no swear words, no insults. 2 weeks.

Let's not kid ourselves, please. Not intended as a personal jab, naturally.

[Tupimus]

Anakha is back! I lurves it.

The forum is more balanced with him around. Balanced, get it? kekekeke

[china]

Empath should have X mana burn on wall instead of DoT.

:>

[skeloperch]

Empath should have X mana burn on wall instead of DoT.

:>

Wouldn't make much of a difference because they will run away from the wall as soon as you place it. I think that her essence link needs to be buffed a bit.

[Skyve]

We might just see Empath soon again. She's not that weak, is she? And she even got buffed after her initial nerf.

She's kinda pretty good on melee carries.

[china]

Wouldn't make much of a difference because they will run away from the wall as soon as you place it. I think that her essence link needs to be buffed a bit.

It'll burn their mana at initial touch? I'm talking about burst mana burn, not a mana loss over time.

I like :empa:

[TRYTROUSERS]

who needs empath when you have master of arms?

[Skyve]

Use Empath with MoA -> win/win situation.

[skeloperch]

It'll burn their mana at initial touch? I'm talking about burst mana burn, not a mana loss over time.

I like :empa:

If it burns on the initial touch, then it can't burn over time. You cater to one or the other. Maybe they could make it burn 10/20/30/40 mana per second, and 10/12/14/16% on the initial touch? I don't really like the idea of giving a unit that can hide behind another mana drain.

[Skyve]

Nobody but you said anything about a mana burn over time.

[china]

Ya, really. I'm saying a flat mana burn that can do something against STR-oriented stunners, or against heroes that have to juggle their mana costs with other spells.

[`G1deon]

Ra is so underpowered, i cant dive at enemy fountain in the beginning of the game and do aniihilation. Fix plz.

Tbh, stun is so huge and in early game w/o boots almost impossible to dodge. And passive to free hp regen, attack speed and aoe damage is a fkin joke.

[skeloperch]

Ra is so underpowered, i cant dive at enemy fountain in the beginning of the game and do aniihilation. Fix plz.

Tbh, stun is so huge and in early game w/o boots almost impossible to dodge. And passive to free hp regen, attack speed and aoe damage is a fkin joke.

His passive isn't even that good, imo. It's his AoE that makes Ra who he is. I, for one, am all in favor of a COMPLETE rework of Ra- mechanics, design, and skills. He is a horribly designed concept- a hero who uses no mana for his spells but instead uses health, all of it is AoE- and his skills a horribly bland. I mean, his skills really are like DotA skills. It's more thrilling playing Hammerstorm than Ra.

To the point; Ra is an abomination of design. There is no reason every other hero in the game has to juggle mana, and Ra gets off scott free. The only mana you will ever expend will be mana for TP stones. He is completely magic damage, but farming a shrunken head against him is tedious, seeing as he will always have the upper hand thanks to massive AoE. Really, I want S2 to nerf -all- heroes who can clear a full creep wave in a matter of seconds on a short cooldown, except for Soul Stealer and Geomancer, since that is an integral part of their hero designs. This nerf would only effect :pebb: :mast: :mida: :monk: :pyro: :glad: :tort: :amun: and :bubb: since they are the only problematic flash farmers in HoN. Soul Reaper has to expend a ton of mana (more than some heroes expend on their entire combo) and wait 6-7 seconds to finish a wave. Panda pretty much has to expend his entire mana pool, and he can only flash farm after he already has some farm. MQ's glaives can't flash farm as efficiently until she pretty much has full inventory. Kraken has to expend half of his mana pool on charge to flash farm a creep wave, either that or he has to have 6 attacks per second.

Further to the point, flash farmers are an abomination. There should be very select few heroes who can flash farm a creep wave. as it is a VERY powerful ability. Rhapsody had her creep clearing abilities nerfed off of her, so why can't other heroes? If we don't, this game starts to resemble LoL, a game where anyone can flash farm- if they have anough money. Sivir can easily clear a creep (sorry, "minion") wave in one spell cast. Vlad can clear a whole wave in 3 casts of a 3.5 second cooldown skill. Annie can one shot a creep wave. Graves can insta-kill a wave with 300 damage (not hard to get seeing as a 3k gold item gives you +100 damage), and so on and so forth. Main point being, do we want this to turn into LoL? Do we want all of these AoE creep clearing abilities?

Tl;DR: Do we want an AoE farm fest? I, personally, want to see a lot more AoE abilities to not affect creeps, such as Gladiator's pitfall, Pyro's stun, Mk's slam, and Ra's W.

[PzKw]

Did you realise that creep clearing is also a necessary component of pushing?

[Benny0]

Meh, clearly Torturer having pushing potential clearly isn't an integral part of his hero design. Same with Pebbles, he doesn't have a skill that does damage to towers and everything...

[TRYTROUSERS]

I still don't get people who say Ra is balanced because a shieldbreaker owns him. Are there really people out there too stupid to see the little red switly over their head and not immediately run out and spend 550 gold to counter it? Not to mention the standard ring of the teacher that's on every team...

[skeloperch]

Did you realise that creep clearing is also a necessary component of pushing?

Flash Farming isn't a necessary component of pushing. I want AoE, not flash farming. :madm:

[PzKw]

....

Did you really just write that?

[Antimodus]

well, the strongest pushers are those who use pets, not aoe's (ophelia, balphagore, tempest, keeper), to overwhelm the defending creepwave and then zerg the tower. Also items like rott, plated, astro, bulwark and auras from neuts.

Sure, you can also push with any of the usual aoe farming skills, it's not the only way though.

If aoe's were made weaker against creeps it would actually make push teams stronger as it would be a lot harder to get rid of their souped up creepwaves and pets

[Anakha]

Funny how one peon can ruin a good thing for everyone.

[pewpewstar]

Note to self: NEVER EVER CLICK ON "VIEW POST" for someone I ignored.

[skeloperch]

Meh, clearly Torturer having pushing potential clearly isn't an integral part of his hero design. Same with Pebbles, he doesn't have a skill that does damage to towers and everything...

Torturer can still push with Impalement, as that melts towers, but this game has WAY too much AoE. I just want a couple of spells to not affect creeps, or to do like half damage to creeps (like Zephyr's cyclones used to). Halving a creep wave's health and killing the warlock/archer is fine. Killing the whole wave in a second or two at level 8 isn't.

[Skyve]

S2 should hire me. I make great heroes that don't affect units via nukes. Yay.

[DarkAgonizer]

Hellbringer is last in win % like 40 %
NerF him more plzzz
I think the nerfs stroke him way too much

[GregerMoek]

Torturer can still push with Impalement, as that melts towers, but this game has WAY too much AoE. I just want a couple of spells to not affect creeps, or to do like half damage to creeps (like Zephyr's cyclones used to). Halving a creep wave's health and killing the warlock/archer is fine. Killing the whole wave in a second or two at level 8 isn't.

Impalement is so effective when creeps are around. :vind:

[Antimodus]

<deleted>

[Shadeward]

Ra is still one of the shittiest hero concepts I've ever seen.

Massive damage output (2 nukes on ridiculously short cds + melee AoE damage from AtA), passive bonus regen and a second life which procs a nuke. Best of all, he gets bonus DPS when you start wailing on him. FUN!

People can list as many drawbacks as they want, he's still THE best farmer in the game since he can spam nukes without needing a refill once he gets roughly 2k worth of items. He also has ridiculous damage output through the whole game.

I don't even understand how they came up with the idea of spammable nukes with little repercussion on the hero. I guess it was original at least.

[Launders]

I think Horned Strike is ridiculously good, even nerf worthy

[ChillyWater]

Ye... Ramp is a really good hero but I honestly don't know how they could nerf him without destroying him. But without team coordination Ramp becomes pretty useless.

[Zilrax]

And against team coordination he also becomes pretty useless.

[ChillyWater]

^^ Yeppers

[pechkin]

to nerf rampage without destroying they need to remove that reliable stun passive and make it rng again, but with cd(shorter one)

[ChillyWater]

to nerf rampage without destroying they need to remove that reliable stun passive and make it rng again, but with cd(shorter one)

He wasn't always like that o.0
Please elaborate!

[Zilrax]

I say it's only fair we nerf Balphagore if we nerf Rampage. I mean if we're going to curbstomp one hero who doesn't need it, might as well do it to another.

[Bojangles15]

Just because the hero is terrible overall doesn't mean you can ignore one skill that's incredibly stupid.

[sillent]

Doombringer should be upgradable:
After you make it, every additional sacred relic you buy adds on +100dmg. Furthermore, after you have +5 sacred relics on the original relic, (thats 250 + 500 dmg), and 3400+2200 + 17k gold, the doombringer binds to you and so:
#possibility1: it doesnt drop on death
#possibility2: it drops on death, but no one can pick it up except you (time to guard the ring :D)

[changlingbob]

Doombringer should be upgradable:
After you make it, every additional sacred relic you buy adds on +100dmg. Furthermore, after you have +5 sacred relics on the original relic, (thats 250 + 500 dmg), and 3400+2200 + 17k gold, the doombringer binds to you and so:
#possibility1: it doesnt drop on death
#possibility2: it drops on death, but no one can pick it up except you (time to guard the ring :D)

this idea is dumb and you should feel dumb.

[ChillyWater]

Doombringer should be upgradable:
After you make it, every additional sacred relic you buy adds on +100dmg. Furthermore, after you have +5 sacred relics on the original relic, (thats 250 + 500 dmg), and 3400+2200 + 17k gold, the doombringer binds to you and so:
#possibility1: it doesnt drop on death
#possibility2: it drops on death, but no one can pick it up except you (time to guard the ring :D)


this idea is dumb and you should feel dumb.

@Sillent, I personally am fine with how DB is mainly because you don't get it (unless it's midwars or you do it for giggles)
@changlingbob, Dude... You are the reason HoN's community is like it is. Unnecessary troll and/or your just being completely inconsiderate.

[Anakha]

Since when are you entitled to not cop flak for sharing poorly thought out suggestions in a balance forum?

[LegoPirate]

Since when are you entitled to not cop flak for sharing poorly thought out suggestions in a balance forum?

didnt you know? this is the forum for heroes of carebears.

[pewpewstar]

Group hug, boys? Teletubbies style.

[Benny0]

Speaking of how Horned Strike is op, why are reliable skills in this game so much stronger than unreliable skills? Compare something like Horned Strike or Splash to any crit or Flint's passive or whatnot, or hell, even compare them to Curse of Ages or Flagellation (yes, Flagellation is better late game, mostly talking early game)

Horned Strike and Splash need to be nerfed, heavily. Gives guaranteed last hits, one is a guaranteed stun... It's kind of silly.

[Bojangles15]

I think the bigger issue with Horned and Splash is the 0 mana cost. Curse of Ages would be stronger late-game with a return to %chance.

[GregerMoek]

Haha I just had this funny thought about Chronos getting Horned Strike, pushing out enemies from his ult.

[changlingbob]

@Sillent, I personally am fine with how DB is mainly because you don't get it (unless it's midwars or you do it for giggles)
@changlingbob, Dude... You are the reason HoN's community is like it is. Unnecessary troll and/or your just being completely inconsiderate.

A literally terrible suggestion in the balance forum, rather than in the suggestion forum where it should be. There's no need for upgrades to doombringer, as its already the most powerful item in the game. It drops on death because its the most powerful item in the game.

Suggesting it be upgradeable n times, and that either it doesn't drop or only drops for you (because otherwise it would be unfair that you upgraded it), misses the point of doombringer's existence so hard we might as well be talking about another game.

[Anakha]

r.i.p. Pewpewstar. We shall miss you

[PzKw]

Famous last words:

<pewpewstar> don't tell me that's a sas rax

[Vermillion_]

What happened to pewpew?!

[Anakha]

Lesson for the night kids: Don't send mail with "COME AT ME BRO" to an unknown address, even if they are across the other side of the continent.

It just might be a military barracks. Google Maps is your friend.

[GregerMoek]

Night? :O ITS ALWAYS THE SAME TIME EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD!

[ChillyWater]

Night? :O ITS ALWAYS THE SAME TIME EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD!

This. 100%

[skeloperch]

Lolwat

So what spells do you think S2 changed on the transition from Necromancer to Lord Salforis? I hope they changed W and E. Mostly E.

[Skyve]

I actually more hope they changed Q. The heal feels very tacked on, and "forced", like it's just put there for the sake of having synergy with his ultimate.

Although I could see the ultimate being changed too, considering it's can be quite devastating on a number of heroes (Amun Ra for instance receives 5-10%% of his HP as damage for every unit his comet hits, instead of being healed, Chronos takes 25-50% more damage on average just from being attacked, Rhapsody's Aura causes any magic damage her allies deal to damage them instead).
It also feels wrong to have such a hardcounter to "lifesteal".

[Launders]

Just because the hero is terrible overall doesn't mean you can ignore one skill that's incredibly stupid.

marry me

it was even worse with that +100 damage nonsense at one point

[skeloperch]

I actually more hope they changed Q. The heal feels very tacked on, and "forced", like it's just put there for the sake of having synergy with his ultimate.

Although I could see the ultimate being changed too, considering it's can be quite devastating on a number of heroes (Amun Ra for instance receives 5-10%% of his HP as damage for every unit his comet hits, instead of being healed, Chronos takes 25-50% more damage on average just from being attacked, Rhapsody's Aura causes any magic damage her allies deal to damage them instead).
It also feels wrong to have such a hardcounter to "lifesteal".


I kinda like the ultimate for that reason. That's the only ability I absolutely want to stay.

[Skyve]

I still feel like that might be conceptually broken, just like Rhapsody's Arcane Hymn kinda is.

[ChillyWater]

Hurm.... Maybe they bringing out two heroes?

[ElementUser]

Not sure

if trolling or being serious for PewpewStar's "situation"

[Megas_]

I feel like im late to the party, but if this tread is really for "reasonless drivel, QQs, rants, and passing thoughts regarding balance" I have some stuff to say.

I really think that EW and RA are balanced; both can be shut down easly when not picking retarded lineups. I agree that EW is too easy to play, but that doesnt mean he is OP; he is a good hero overall, in the same way that Valk is good, but with not as much power and difficulty. Ra needs a little bit more of skill (just a little bit), but its still a good easy heroe, even tho it impresses me to see how many people jungle so porly with ra (always running around with red life)

Actually I think that HoN has a fairly good balance, I dont think any current heroes are OP; i think some heroes could get some nerfs here and there, and some could get a little rework (will talk more about both of these in the next post), but they still would be balanced.

I think that MK (post nerf) is one of the most balanced and well designed heroes, I actually think that the nerf at the combo was to harsh.

End of opinion

[DancingTeCup]

Bring back the WARDS!