Balance Dump

[Alten]

Theoretically, less wards at the start of a game means that supports cannot spend as much money at the start for... well, supportive purposes like getting wards. This furthers S2's goal of "funifying" support.

Furthermore, it favors more strategic use of wards and helps ganking; less defensive vision, of course, means that gankers will have an easier time of fulfilling their duty. If ganking becomes more effective, it means carrying will become less effective as heroes are forced to buy less major pick-ups and more medium pick-ups (i.e., instead of a Bane rush, you would pick-up several soulscreams or a nullfire because of a greater threat against gold hoarding; ganking also becomes a more effective way of acquiring gold, which means carry items would become less effective overall to a conducive strategy). Changes which favor ganking and nerf carrying creates opportunities for more exciting games, which is apparently a good thing.


Though this change hardly amounts to such significant impact on its own, it's evident that S2 wishes to implement many minor (but collectively major) changes; they have already established the linear direction these changes are taking. This is evident if you look at similar changes made in the past, and ultimately they will culminate in gameplay that differentiates itself from DotA while enhancing the fast-pacedness that makes HoN so riveting to watch (as compared to other MoBAs, at least) and successful competitively.

[Anakha]

It's a direct response to competitors complaining that the pull is too easily dewarded. The implementation is from one of them, verbatim.

[Anakha]

Yea, but Hammerstorm isn't really being used as a carry, but Madman is. There's a difference. It's easy to kite Hammerstorm. Madman? not so much.

And yet neither are technically being used as a carry (not being picked etc). Not to mention, Shrunken Head covered the purge vulnerability of Madman when it was needed as it did for Hammerstorm. Kiting also means less to a Hammerstorm with increased cleave area as well.

[Benny0]

And yet neither are technically being used as a carry (not being picked etc). Not to mention, Shrunken Head covered the purge vulnerability of Madman when it was needed as it did for Hammerstorm. Kiting also means less to a Hammerstorm with increased cleave area as well.

This. Era has mentioned that he could see Hammer being used very well as a farming semi-carry midgame or even somebody who could scale into a hard carry lategame now, and I tend to agree with him. I would love to see more people level up his cleave before level 22 now... (yes, I know I'm exaggerating)

Also I am extremely sick of a certain individual spamming GD with "oh my god puppet worst hero in game because he doesn't have a +5% base damage buff at level 1 worst hero" threads. The notion of stats being better than Whiplash is actually comical. If a reliable, splash crit isn't good enough to be worth taking over stats, I imagine this poor soul waits until level 22 to take Madman's and Swiftblade's crits. After all, they don't even give splash, at 600 range!

[pewpewstar]

What I'm wondering is why Puppet was their choice of target to be nerfed, among the 600 range carries.

[Anakha]

Because his ult was not functioning as intended (half the effective hp on the Puppet), and thus had to be nerfed to counterbalance the appropriate buff that fixing the ult came with.

[GregerMoek]

Puppet is still a ****ing strong hero despite the fix/nerf IMHO.
I wonder why War Beast's dawgs got two buffs, one would be enough (if it even was needed which I doubt). They could have given them 1 armor or so and nothing else.. but what do I know, perhaps they did calculations and found that the dawgs would die from the same ammount of attacks while having 1 armor instead of 0.

[FlowZone]

Tree ultimate cannot be blocked by Bubbles' "take cover".
OP heroes: Amun-Ra, Zephyr, Drunken Master
Tanky, high mobile damage dealers with AOE abilities aren't a great idea ;-)

[Skyve]

Tree ultimate cannot be blocked by Bubbles' "take cover".
OP heroes: Amun-Ra, Zephyr, Drunken Master
Tanky, high mobile damage dealers with AOE abilities aren't a great idea ;-)

Drunken doesn't have much in terms of AoE damage, and neither Ra, nor Zephyr are really tanky nor "high mobile".

[Lethe]

Puppet is still a ****ing strong hero despite the fix/nerf IMHO.
I wonder why War Beast's dawgs got two buffs, one would be enough (if it even was needed which I doubt). They could have given them 1 armor or so and nothing else.. but what do I know, perhaps they did calculations and found that the dawgs would die from the same ammount of attacks while having 1 armor instead of 0.

2 armor is huge. 2 armor is why Lycan was a virtually unstoppable jungler (and coincidentally the best carry) in dota 6.53 hands down and was immediately nerfed in the next version.

I find it odd that competitive players want WB to be further buffed. His early game jungling is his only weakness, now it's stupidly easy. It doesn't even take a brain when you have two hounds tanking for you who both have 5 armor (with RoTT).

[skeloperch]

2 armor is huge. 2 armor is why Lycan was a virtually unstoppable jungler (and coincidentally the best carry) in dota 6.53 hands down and was immediately nerfed in the next version.

I find it odd that competitive players want WB to be further buffed. His early game jungling is his only weakness, now it's stupidly easy. It doesn't even take a brain when you have two hounds tanking for you who both have 5 armor (with RoTT).

Yeah, it's pretty gay, but hey, if/when competitors find WB to be too powerful, we know what to nerf.

[Lethe]

It's bound to happen. WB is possibly the best dps hero in the game bar-none, and usually shits over ranged carries who get too comfortable with their stupid geo/fws/frostburn etc.

[Skyve]

If WB becomes more popular, we might also start seeing more Succubus! <3

[skeloperch]

If WB becomes more popular, we might also start seeing more Succubus! <3

and more void talisman, which will lead to more charged hammer.

Also, this is an indirect buff to RotT, and, frankly, it pushes RotT into broken territory.

[Skyve]

Also, this is an indirect buff to RotT, and, frankly, it pushes RotT into broken territory.RotT has always been too good.

The only thing that keep the item somewhat in check is the fact that you can't stack it.

[MathLc]

If WB becomes more popular, we might also start seeing more Succubus! <3

**** warbeast. He is almost as gay as magebane. like super homo. Hero is fine and everything, but god **** it, it is super annoying to play against. for real, playing magebane makes you a massive gay nerd

[ElementUser]

2 armor is huge. 2 armor is why Lycan was a virtually unstoppable jungler (and coincidentally the best carry) in dota 6.53 hands down and was immediately nerfed in the next version.

I find it odd that competitive players want WB to be further buffed. His early game jungling is his only weakness, now it's stupidly easy. It doesn't even take a brain when you have two hounds tanking for you who both have 5 armor (with RoTT).

Blame china

<3

Actually the original numbers from S2 were from 0 armor to 1/2/3/4 armor, luckily that got scrapped thanks to china

[Anakha]

2 armour at all levels is better...

[Juuto]

If WB becomes more popular, we might also start seeing more Succubus! <3

DEAR GOD.

PLEEEEASE LET QUEEN SUCCUBUS COME BACK.

Also, S2, if you're reading this: Queen Khia alt avatar needs to be made.

[china]

Dunno what's all this talk about WB being OP. His wolves 10x worse than Lycan's.

[Lethe]

...the only advantage wolves have over hellhounds is slightly lower BAT and higher movespeed, which is easily offset by their lack of hp and armor.

pls explain this '10x better then hellhounds' joke.

[Dawnbringer]

^Hounds just got +2 armor.

[Anakha]

Which is why he's saying that wolves being 100x better is a joke.

[Dawnbringer]

That was directed at china :(

EDIT: forgot to refresh page b4 :(

[ElementUser]

War Beast hounds have a worse attack point.

Lycan's wolves have 0.33 attackpoint, War Beast hounds have 0.75. That's more than double the attack point.

So bad.

[Mediocre]

Rampage charge is to good with no proper counter except perfect map vision.

This is because of gained magic immunity and enough base hp/armor to dive towers.

[SmurfinBird]

Rampage charge is to good with no proper counter except perfect map vision.

This is because of gained magic immunity and enough base hp/armor to dive towers.

:VoidTalisman:
:Portalkey:
:Stormspirit:
:GeometersBane:
:Nullstone:
:HomecomingStone:
What is so hard...

[MiniDon]

Dear s2 .............what is going on in ur balance.....

So here it comes. competitive and 1700+ Pubs have been seeing 2-1-1-1 jungler strat almost every 3 games...

What does s2 do? Limit wards........ Soooooooooo before some pubs when faced against a tempest for example, when they had a kotf they would buy 4 wards, 1 on pull, 1 on rune, 1 on ez camp and 1 on medium camp.. so that leaves u with 1 medium and 1 hard camp that are VERY far away..

what this did is it forced tempest to move into the other jungle where there was a lvl 4 kotf waiting for him when temp was only lvl 2 :S .... then kotf took a crap on temp..

Or if the other team had a jungler u warded some of his neuts, forced him to go into the other jungle and there u can just control that with 1 ward and know where he is 100 % of the time and u can rape him....... Also it leaves their solo laner COMPLETELY alone...... u went on him no one would rescue him..

Now s2 buffs 2-1-1-1 jungler strat xD with the only 2wards..


Oh also if u buy 2 wards and then sell them withing the 15 sec time period u have 0 wards until they get back up.. u cant rebuy them.. so gg long lane and mid

[Juuto]

Dear s2 .............what is going on in ur balance.....

So here it comes. competitive and 1700+ Pubs have been seeing 2-1-1-1 jungler strat almost every 3 games...

What does s2 do? Limit wards........ Soooooooooo before some pubs when faced against a tempest for example, when they had a kotf they would buy 4 wards, 1 on pull, 1 on rune, 1 on ez camp and 1 on medium camp.. so that leaves u with 1 medium and 1 hard camp that are VERY far away..

what this did is it forced tempest to move into the other jungle where there was a lvl 4 kotf waiting for him when temp was only lvl 2 :S .... then kotf took a crap on temp..

Or if the other team had a jungler u warded some of his neuts, forced him to go into the other jungle and there u can just control that with 1 ward and know where he is 100 % of the time and u can rape him....... Also it leaves their solo laner COMPLETELY alone...... u went on him no one would rescue him..

Now s2 buffs 2-1-1-1 jungler strat xD with the only 2wards..


Oh also if u buy 2 wards and then sell them withing the 15 sec time period u have 0 wards until they get back up.. u cant rebuy them.. so gg long lane and mid

i lol'd.

[Lethe]

element with his all-knowing knowledge -_-.

Oh well luckily attack point is virtually negligible under such circumstances.

[Mediocre]

:VoidTalisman:
:Portalkey:
:Stormspirit:
:GeometersBane:
:Nullstone:
:HomecomingStone:
What is so hard...

:HomecomingStone:? Not like hes got enough stuns to keep you from tping... If you dont see him coming you wont get the chance to tp. And I already said that vision is his greatest counter.

And gl too you if u can get rest of the items in laning phase, where he causes you the most trouble.

[Lethe]

also I'd like to point out that +1/+2/+3/+4 armor is generally much better than +2 armor at all levels. The only disadvantage with the former comes at level 1 and 2 by a single point of armor, after which the latter is much better, especially after the laning phase, when you have hounds neutraling while you farm elsewhere.

[Skyve]

also I'd like to point out that +1/+2/+3/+4 armor is generally much better than +2 armor at all levels. The only disadvantage with the former comes at level 1 and 2 by a single point of armor, after which the latter is much better, especially after the laning phase, when you have hounds neutraling while you farm elsewhere.

I'd say +2 on all levels is stronger, since it's really only important on the early levels...

[Lethe]

you know early levels in this context = having 1 armor as opposed to 2 at level 1 and 2?

The use of armor transcends early game, because you should be using hounds to farm throughout the game. Having two level 4 hellhounds attacking a strong camp with 4 armor as opposed to 2 while you farm elsewhere is going to mean you farm faster. It means you can attack ancients faster, can have hellhounds tank towers easier, etc.

Doesn't take long to get to level 3. Pulling a strong camp alone is often enough to hit level 2.

neways coulda woulda shoulda enuff of that.

[ElementUser]

element with his all-knowing knowledge -_-.

Oh well luckily attack point is virtually negligible under such circumstances.

Not when chasing :P

[GregerMoek]

I like when War Beast is able to solo two caps at once. Or Jungle + Lane. Or stack Puzzlebox and Whispering Helm and have over 9000 pets breaking the sound barrier for a short period of time.

Notice how this is also a slight buff to Legionnaire against War beast!!!!1111one
Because when he spins, the spin does not deal as much damage on pets, making them last longer, which means more proc chanz. Why buff Legionnaire? srsly.

[Launders]

hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com

[skeloperch]

I like when War Beast is able to solo two caps at once. Or Jungle + Lane. Or stack Puzzlebox and Whispering Helm and have over 9000 pets breaking the sound barrier for a short period of time.

Notice how this is also a slight buff to Legionnaire against War beast!!!!1111one
Because when he spins, the spin does not deal as much damage on pets, making them last longer, which means more proc chanz. Why buff Legionnaire? srsly.
Lego's spin is magikz, so even if hounds had 9999 armor, he would kill them just as quickly.

[Hsssh]

you know early levels in this context = having 1 armor as opposed to 2 at level 1 and 2?

The use of armor transcends early game, because you should be using hounds to farm throughout the game. Having two level 4 hellhounds attacking a strong camp with 4 armor as opposed to 2 while you farm elsewhere is going to mean you farm faster. It means you can attack ancients faster, can have hellhounds tank towers easier, etc.

Doesn't take long to get to level 3. Pulling a strong camp alone is often enough to hit level 2.

neways coulda woulda shoulda enuff of that.

I think problem is that constant armor makes him more versatile(it's easier to max global damage buff now) while still keeping him late game monster.

[china]

If you guys are saying attack point is negligible, try attacking a fleeing hero with wolves in HoN vs. DotA. It's terrible and simply doesn't work out. Your wolves' attacks 'miss' all the time.

I play more Warbeast than all of you :> I know more about the hero.

[Theburned]

Midas is str, ranged and has an escape mechanism.

How many hero design "rules" were broken there?

at least they didn't give him nukes :)

or stuns.

oh at least they are single target.

[skeloperch]

So let's discuss Tremble. I love his model and voice, but I can't stand playing him anymore. I get shat on mid by anyone with a brain because of wards. I can't gank anyone because it seems everyone I play against has an escape mechanism or is tanky. I can't farm very well because Q takes too much mana, and my mounds are jokes :(.

One nerf mutilated the hero. One tiny nerf on a below average hero. Srsly S2, revert the nerf. You haven't caved in and nerfed EW, so you can unnerf Tremble.

[ElementUser]

If you guys are saying attack point is negligible, try attacking a fleeing hero with wolves in HoN vs. DotA. It's terrible and simply doesn't work out. Your wolves' attacks 'miss' all the time.

I play more Warbeast than all of you :> I know more about the hero.

:warb:

[Lethe]

I was talking about jungling, you know, the essential core of WB/Lycan's game that links the rest together.

I could care less about the offensive uses of wolves vs. heroes since metamorphosis gives unit walking and shapeshift does not. There is good reason no one goes necrobook on Lycan, or any mass minion buff build for that matter. Even a minimal unit block is much, much more costly than having reduced attack time on wolves.

In case it wasn't ridiculously clear, 'under such circumstances' refers to jungling, which is again, the core of WB/Lycan's gameplay which allows everything else to work. A WB or lycan who can't jungle well is going to have problems.

Your experience with WB is meaningless to me, whoop dee doo, I've had so much experience with Lycan that I could probably pick him up nowadays after having not played Dota for 2 years and still do ok, seeing how Fear taught me tips and tricks most Lycan players overlook. You do realize that after 6.53, his wolves' armor was reduced from 5 to 2, but it still wasn't enough, so that afterwards they reduced the wolves' armor to 0, which promptly removed him from the competitive scene because it was too difficult to jungle reliably with him?

History shows that to make Lycan, and subsequently WB viable in competitive play, all you need to do is make his jungling reliable. Movespeed hardly affects that, as does a reduced attack point. Armor and HP makes a huge difference. Notice recently how Lycan became a core candidate for carry after feral impulse was buffed, and had his jungling capabilities reduced in the very next version?

Never said WB was OP, I will openly state though that he is now a much more 'reliable' jungler, mostly relative to the huge issues he had before, you know, the issues that come with having 0 armor on your tanking summons. We all know how hard it is to stop a snowballing WB. He farms well, pushes well and scales very well.

[Skyve]

So let's discuss Tremble. I love his model and voice, but I can't stand playing him anymore. I get shat on mid by anyone with a brain because of wards. I can't gank anyone because it seems everyone I play against has an escape mechanism or is tanky. I can't farm very well because Q takes too much mana, and my mounds are jokes :(.

One nerf mutilated the hero. One tiny nerf on a below average hero. Srsly S2, revert the nerf. You haven't caved in and nerfed EW, so you can unnerf Tremble.

If you get shat on ass tremble mid by anyone just because of wards, then how do you play any other melee hero mid?

[skeloperch]

If you get shat on ass tremble mid by anyone just because of wards, then how do you play any other melee hero mid?

I can kill people as other melee heroes. :geom: charge, :fayd: invis and ranged stun (2 things that Tremble doesn't have), :devo: hook, and etc.

:geom:

[GregerMoek]

No rev wards untill you're at least level 2. The super early game is decent as a mid Tremble nowadays I would say. And even then the rev ward might not be used to counter Tremble.

He's annoying as **** to play against. Mainly because of his and his pet's teleport-where-I-want-mechanic. **** that ****. **** **** ****.

[changlingbob]

He's annoying as **** to play against. Mainly because of his and his pet's teleport-where-I-want-mechanic. **** that ****. **** **** ****.

:madm:

[skeloperch]

No rev wards untill you're at least level 2. The super early game is decent as a mid Tremble nowadays I would say. And even then the rev ward might not be used to counter Tremble.

He's annoying as **** to play against. Mainly because of his and his pet's teleport-where-I-want-mechanic. **** that ****. **** **** ****.

I'm pretty sure just a regular ward will reveal Tremble anyways. Slither's have owned my face off because of their toxin wards in my mounds.

[china]

If you think the attack point is meaningless, you're nothing but deadweight for the first 7 minutes of the game. He is very easily ganked/harassed/controlled in that period, pushing a pbox past 25 minutes should be the goal.

[GregerMoek]

No ward won't do that, at least if practise mode is correct, not even the Slither wards. You can reveal him by staying in the mound area though. Something which while not being ideal is still a good thing for Tremble, he also gets wicked regen from the mounds along with speed.

[SmurfinBird]

:HomecomingStone:? Not like hes got enough stuns to keep you from tping... If you dont see him coming you wont get the chance to tp. And I already said that vision is his greatest counter.

And gl too you if u can get rest of the items in laning phase, where he causes you the most trouble.

Is there something about a homecoming stone that forces you to be the one using it?

I'd say having a Witch Slayer or something teleport in a pretty good counter for you getting charged by rampage alone.

Can we also have this guy that's saying **** like:

"I'm pretty sure just a regular ward will reveal Tremble anyways."

to just stop posting? ..........

[ZeSlave]

team match mkaing and solo match making are mixed..... does no one else see a prob here. who cares about que times its never close games team are not being challenged with other teams. this is a serious flaw in this game

[ZeSlave]

team match mkaing and solo match making are mixed..... does no one else see a prob here. who cares about que times its never close games team are not being challenged with other teams. this is a serious flaw in this game games are meant for fun and relaxing...................

[ChillyWater]

Honestly... I think if people (not excluding myself) learnt how to draft and counter-pick effectively in the draft much of the OP heroes would not be so OP... Also :valk: isn't OP nor is :ramp:... I feel the reason why some people call these heroes OP is that the don't know how to counter... e.g To counter :valk: simply dodge her arrows, she's can easily complete the role of a pubstomp hero... Learn to avoid her javelin: problem solved (your dodging skills will have to match that of the caster). To counter :ramp:? get a :Nullstone: (use common sense... I wouldn't suggest a :Nullstone: to a team with in which ramp has the only target)and work as a team, have :WardOfSight:, call miss and use common sense (did ramp just die? do they have wards? Do they have vision of you? Are you alone? Are you in a horrible position?)

One thing that grinds me is that often to win you need to pick more than 2 carries + some good aoe... I know that drafting can counter it... also cm doesn't help but I also wish I could draft... and the team would work as a team (during the drafting stage)

One last thing... Someone's team can be overall better than you, this is hon, its a team game (despite what most say) Don't think I'm saying a good draft is an auto-win nor is a team of carry's an auto win.

Edit: Googled... :Stormspirit:... :VoidTalisman:.... :TabletOfCommand:... :Nullstone:...:WardOfSight:.... Just think and google

[Whip]

team match mkaing and solo match making are mixed..... does no one else see a prob here. who cares about que times its never close games team are not being challenged with other teams. this is a serious flaw in this game

Them being mixed is crucial for 4 man teams.

And it's not like you get matched with 4 man teams on a frequent basis.

[Vermillion_]

Lol'd at Valk being called nothing more then a pubstomp hero.

[ChillyWater]

Lol'd at Valk being called nothing more then a pubstomp hero.

I understand that she is a good "rounded" hero but in the earlier post (at which I was responding to) she was labeled OP... Which she is not. The poster asked for a nerf on her arrow(a difficult skillshot) which at max power deals a 5 second stun. The only reason some one would want a nerf on her javelin is if he(or she) was pubstomped...
I also may not have fully explained my self... I understand I was wrong if I said that she "nothing more then a pubstomp hero."
But in that instance she was most probably a pubstomp. (my definition of "pubstomp" may and most probably are two different things)

Edit: Fixed original post... Just for you :madm:

[Benny0]

Can Harkon's have it's mana cost reduced, by like 5 or 10 or 15 or something? I feel it really should remain an attack modifier, because it is far better than any other attack modifier in the game, which is why it also deserves a cost (also to avoid agi carries from picking it up without consideration but that's besides the point), but I dunno if it's worth it right now.

Also, can blood hunter get turned into a not stupid hero at some point? The whole "I don't do that much but on occasion I will fill up to full HP out of nowhere while your main support is silenced but that's all I really do" is just frustrating and imo, a bad concept.

[GregerMoek]

I understand that she is a good "rounded" hero but in the earlier post (at which I was responding to) she was labeled OP... Which she is not. The poster asked for a nerf on her arrow(a difficult skillshot) which at max power deals a 5 second stun. The only reason some one would want a nerf on her javelin is if he(or she) was pubstomped...
I also may not have fully explained my self... I understand I was wrong if I said that she "nothing more then a pubstomp hero."
But in that instance she was most probably a pubstomp. (my definition of "pubstomp" may and most probably are two different things)

Edit: Fixed original post... Just for you :madm:

Yeah I even heard someone missed with the Javelin on a Succubus-Mezmerised target once, and that was a pro. So definately easy to dodge!

[PzKw]

Valk is now a pubstomp hero only.

(Edit: http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/features/2785

The following is the statline for PotM (Valk) in the highest tier tournament in this genre ever held. Note that she is the 14th most picked and banned hero, and has the highest winrate apart from Viper (80%, 37th most pickbanned) who was pretty much only played by one team who went on to win the tournament. Note the 73% winrate?

B/P - Bans - Picks - Wins - Losses - Winrate - P/B%
28 6 22 16 6 72.73% 53.85%

Ha. Get off this forum.)

[GregerMoek]

Yeah well except for Sniper(flint) with a whooping 100% winrate, but picked only once.

inb4 someone says "it's because valk was in perfect line-ups that fits her well and not the hero strength" or something in the lines of that.

[ChillyWater]

Valk is now a pubstomp hero only.

(Edit: http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/features/2785

The following is the statline for PotM (Valk) in the highest tier tournament in this genre ever held. Note that she is the 14th most picked and banned hero, and has the highest winrate apart from Viper (80%, 37th most pickbanned) who was pretty much only played by one team who went on to win the tournament. Note the 73% winrate?

B/P - Bans - Picks - Wins - Losses - Winrate - P/B%
28 6 22 16 6 72.73% 53.85%

Ha. Get off this forum.)
Erm... Are you saying she is OP?

[GregerMoek]

Quite interesting also that Sand Wraith, Glacius, DR and Pollywog(right?) were the "most balanced" ones in terms of win rate only. Along with Pugna, Morphling and Tinker which aren't in this game.

[Ekamo]

Yeah well except for Sniper(flint) with a whooping 100% winrate, but picked only once.

inb4 someone says "it's because valk was in perfect line-ups that fits her well and not the hero strength" or something in the lines of that.

It's because Valkyrie was in perfect line-ups that fit her well and not the hero strength in itself.... :) Dota hero is perfectly balanced always lol...

I do NOT agree with people who says she is OP, but I would still love to hear how you would approach nerfing her if that is what you want. Where is it that her greatest strengths is too much? Is she conceptually broken?

[PzKw]

No in that post, I'm just saying that any idea that she doesn't scale immensely well into high tier games is clearly flawed. As I said in the other thread, trying to garner accurate stats off The International is problematic, but winning nearly 3 out of 4 games, with that many games played has to be an indication that she's very, very strong.

Now I have said many times that Valk is OP.

[ChillyWater]

It's because Valkyrie was in perfect line-ups that fit her well and not the hero strength in itself.... :) Dota hero is perfectly balanced always lol...

I do NOT agree with people who says she is OP, but I would still love to hear how you would approach nerfing her if that is what you want. Where is it that her greatest strengths is too much? Is she conceptually broken?

I wouldn't nerf her... Her greatest strength? I honestly don't know... She has good escape capability, strong ganking power, an aoe nuke and her stun...(if you can land it) but compared to other agility ranged carries (:arac: :emer:).
You find that :arac: has the most armor, attack dmg, and 2nd most movespeed. You also find that :emer: has the 2nd most attack dmg, 2nd most armor and least movespeed. But valk has the least base armor, least attack dmg and most movespeed. :arac: and :emer: have the same hp but :valk: has the most. :valk: has 11 more str at lvl 25. But in a 1v1 (no items) both carries die at the same time (:arac: and :valk:). :valk: has a tiny less attack speed (1.176 compared to the 1.25 of :emer: and :arac:). What I conclude is that :valk: is a balanced (I wouldn't say perfectly cause there will always be small inbalances) hero.

[Skyve]

I wouldn't nerf her... Her greatest strength? I honestly don't know... She has good escape capability, strong ganking power, an aoe nuke and her stun...(if you can land it) but compared to other agility ranged carries (:arac: :emer:).
You find that :arac: has the most armor, attack dmg, and 2nd most movespeed. You also find that :emer: has the 2nd most attack dmg, 2nd most armor and least movespeed. But valk has the least base armor, least attack dmg and most movespeed. :arac: and :emer: have the same hp but :valk: has the most. :valk: has 11 more str at lvl 25. But in a 1v1 (no items) both carries die at the same time (:arac: and :valk:). :valk: has a tiny less attack speed (1.176 compared to the 1.25 of :emer: and :arac:). What I conclude is that :valk: is a balanced (I wouldn't say perfectly cause there will always be small inbalances) hero.

God, please, just stop it >_>

[Alten]

Rhapsody is still too powerful.

[Hsssh]

Valk is now a pubstomp hero only.

(Edit: http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/features/2785

The following is the statline for PotM (Valk) in the highest tier tournament in this genre ever held. Note that she is the 14th most picked and banned hero, and has the highest winrate apart from Viper (80%, 37th most pickbanned) who was pretty much only played by one team who went on to win the tournament. Note the 73% winrate?

B/P - Bans - Picks - Wins - Losses - Winrate - P/B%
28 6 22 16 6 72.73% 53.85%

Ha. Get off this forum.)

I think it might be worth mentioning that Na'vi, who dominated whole event, are responsible for 7 out of these 16 victories.

Also i find it slightly amusing that beta version of the game with very limited amount of heroes and some of them being broken has any relevance as far as statistics or viability goes.

[Lethe]

ffs China.

Attack point doesn't make Lycan more immune to harassment or ganks. All it does is give Lycan more killing power early in the game which he very rarely utilizes. Do you honestly think that if hellhounds had lower attack points players would magically begin harassing the enemy players instead of farming? Seeing how hellhounds are WB's only farming skill, and a costly one at that?

I don't know why you are trying to save face. Only someone who played Lycan from dota 6.53-6.56 would know the value of having armor on hellhounds. Remember, 2 armor proved to be too much.

But if you really think wolves are strictly better then hellhounds because they are better harassment tools that Lycan players would prefer to use for farming anyways, then I won't bother with it any longer.

[china]

ffs China.

Attack point doesn't make Lycan more immune to harassment or ganks. All it does is give Lycan more killing power early in the game which he very rarely utilizes. Do you honestly think that if hellhounds had lower attack points players would magically begin harassing the enemy players instead of farming? Seeing how hellhounds are WB's only farming skill, and a costly one at that?

I don't know why you are trying to save face. Only someone who played Lycan from dota 6.53-6.56 would know the value of having armor on hellhounds. Remember, 2 armor proved to be too much.

But if you really think wolves are strictly better then hellhounds because they are better harassment tools that Lycan players would prefer to use for farming anyways, then I won't bother with it any longer.


If you think the attack point is meaningless, you're nothing but deadweight for the first 7 minutes of the game. He is very easily ganked/harassed/controlled in that period, pushing a pbox past 25 minutes should be the goal.

The first statement was in reference to the fact that his wolves' attacks miss targets that are moving. His wolves cannot harm moving units. He cannot affect the game in the first 7 minutes outside of farming, or possibly moving into empty lanes while his team distracts.

The second statement serves only to restate that he is a harassable hero. In no way did I relate the two, nor did I state attack points make him unharassable. Attack points make him deadweight, because his wolves can't HIT moving heroes. He cannot affect the game as much as Lycan due to that facet, and is still equally assailable as Lycan.

If his wolves did not miss attacks on moving targets, he could unequivocally affect the game in a greater way than being deadweight for 7 minutes.

readingcomprehensionmuch.jpg.

[Lethe]

Have you even played Lycan before?

Do you know the meaning of absolutes? Do you know what making statements like 'wolves are 10x better than hellhounds (even when taken figuratively)' and 'his wolves cannot harm moving units' entails?

But it's all good, I won't attack your ego anymore.

[Antimodus]

isn't the range check for an attack made at the start of the animation, not at the attack point? does it make 2 checks? can a melee hero or unit fail to attack you after the animation starts just because you're moving away really fast?

I'm asking this because china's post seems to be saying that the bad attack point of the wolves renders them incapable of attacking moving targets. or did u mean they get delayed too much standing still waiting for the attack point?

[Lethe]

I could find a single replay of a hellhound dealing a single point of damage to a moving target and throw that argument into the dumpster where it belongs.

I'm sure China will happily offer me some of his own replays.

[Anakha]

I think it might be worth mentioning that Na'vi, who dominated whole event, are responsible for 7 out of these 16 victories.

Also i find it slightly amusing that beta version of the game with very limited amount of heroes and some of them being broken has any relevance as far as statistics or viability goes.

For the same reason that statistics and viability of look-alikes in DotA are relevant, in a game with all of the same basic mechanics - there will be a certain level of translation in regards to strong concepts and heroes.

[skeloperch]

On an unrelated note, do you guys think Nymphora is balanced, under powered, or over powered? I think she's a little on the weak side, having two sub par skills and 2 good skills, and both of those skills have to be built around to be useful. I only ever find Nymph extremely useful when she lanes with a mana hungry hero that can harass the hell out of people without pushing the lane, like :mora: :pyro: :madm: :noma: and :reve:. Now, don't get me wrong, Nomad and Nymphora is probably the single best dual lane in the game right now, but I feel Nymphora shouldn't be balanced around 2 skills being OP, and 2 skills being crappy.

[china]

DotA's Lycan Wolves:

400/450/500/550 HP
0.25 HP regen
0 armor
90 range
17.5/28.5/36/46 average damage
400/420/440/460 movespeed
1.25/1.2/1.15/1.1 BAT
0.33 attackpoint
1200 day and 800 night vision
21/26/36/41 bounty

30% chance for 1.5x crit level 2+, permanent invisibility at level 4, 3s fade time.



HoN's War Beast Hellbounds:

400/475/550/625 HP
0.25 HP regen
2 armor
100 range
20/29/38/47 average damage
400 movespeed
1.25 BAT
0.75 attackpoint
1200 day and 800 night vision
21/26/36/41 bounty


Can't attack buildings if not within 925 range of War Beast

Ultimate grants Hellbounds unitwalking

30% chance for 1.5x crit level 2+, permanent invisibility at level 4, 3s fade time.



Net Results (Reference point is War Beast's Hellbounds)

+0/+25/+50/+75 HP
+2 armor
+10 range
+2.5/+0.5/+2/+1 average damage
-0/-20/-40/-60 movespeed
0/+0.5/+0.1/+0.15 BAT
+0.42 attack point

Can't attack buildings if not within 925 range of War Beast

Ultimate grants Hellbounds unitwalking

ElementUser's roll-up in competitors. Lycan's wolves 10x better. Faster than most heroes, can backdoor, and doesn't miss fleeing heroes.

I'll happily provide replays this weekend when I play again. I obviously wouldn't lie about something just for fun. :>

[Skyve]

I'll happily provide replays this weekend when I play again. I obviously wouldn't lie about something just for fun. :>

I actually tried it in practice and it seems to hit, but at the same time, the high attack point still makes chasing with the dogs pretty annoying and "slow".

[china]

I actually tried it in practice and it seems to hit, but at the same time, the high attack point still makes chasing with the dogs pretty annoying and "slow".

Have you tried doing it on heroes with boots? There's no issue hitting heroes without boots, but heroes with phase or boots cause the attacks to miss, at least on some heroes.

I don't see miss in my head.

About it being annoying and slow - yes. Their threat level is negligible when ultimate is not activated, compared to Lycan's wolves, as you can see in the roll-up above.

Fact is, Lycan > WB. Backdoor, much?

[Skyve]

I tried with and without boots, and it didn't work with post-haste on gladi, so I had to ult with Warbeast to even be able to chase, so yeah, I tried it with boots :)

[china]

I tried with and without boots, and it didn't work with post-haste on gladi, so I had to ult with Warbeast to even be able to chase, so yeah, I tried it with boots :)

:> So it misses on phase-activated heroes? If so, there you go.

Then there's the fact that you can make maybe 2-3 attacks in per wolf in a range of maybe 3k? Painfully slow.

[Lethe]

the comparison is accurate, but I'm surprised you devalue armor and hp so little, yet value attack point, bd ability and movespeed so much. Those things go down the drain when ure under ult.

but yea its all good ill wait for the replays. I can guarantee you will have a much easily time jungling ;)

[Skyve]

Okay true, above 400 MS (tried with 440 now) they actually miss :)

[ElementUser]

There's also the issue of DotA's towers having the pseudo-regen-armor mechanic while HoN's doesn't have that.

[china]

the comparison is accurate, but I'm surprised you devalue armor and hp so little, yet value attack point, bd ability and movespeed so much. Those things go down the drain when ure under ult.

but yea its all good ill wait for the replays. I can guarantee you will have a much easily time jungling ;)

You'll still largely be inhibited by mana cost, and I'm still locked in at 6-8 minute vlads depending on spawns, maybe 10 minute steams.

The main benefit of the armor buff is when it is coupled with the passive melee regen bonus, which allows you to stay above half HP so that any stray Glacius wandering into your forest won't immediately slay you. Not that most good Warbeast's won't know when heroes are roaming his jungle.

There are a lot of things I value about Warbeast that other heroes simply don't offer.


Maphack (Immediately reveal the lane setup of opposing team, as well as runes and defensive/offensive scouting)
Unpreventable farm (Wolves killing enemy neutrals while you hack away at your own, wolves farming lanes, capacity to kill Ancients relatively early on at a fast pace, etc.)
Immensely powerful W
Multi-lane presence (pushing lanes with wolves as you farm neuts)
Inability to really die solo (thanks to R)
Carry-potential without items (Pre-20)
Carry-potential with items (Post-20, thanks to Puzzlebox or any typical DPS item)
Kongoring

I went back and played Lycan, after stopping HoN for a term. Lycan can literally send out his Wolves to very effectively gank a lane, where I don't even really consider that an option in HoN unless the solo-laner has a stun, or I'm 6. Then you have his reduced capacity to Kongor/Rosh in HoN, since Kongor has been buffed. I've something like 823132%+ win rate with WB in pubs (o man, big pro), and the only reason why it's so high is that they never bother to put pressure on you. And by the time they do (10 mins in), it's already too late to stop him, because Vlads + Tread cycling makes him a wolf-factory.

[china]

Okay true, above 400 MS (tried with 440 now) they actually miss :)

Attacks should never miss :<

[Skyve]

Attacks should never miss :<

Well, they don't really "miss". It's more like disjointing them, because the target of the attack moves too fast in a short period of time (it's like Monkey King's Q that can't really disjoint anything, but can still cause attack on him to be "Too Bad")

[china]

Well, they don't really "miss". It's more like disjointing them, because the target of the attack moves too fast in a short period of time (it's like Monkey King's Q that can't really disjoint anything, but can still cause attack on him to be "Too Bad")

Did you see miss? They missed. :> Thanks for the research, Skyve!

[Skyve]

No, it's not "miss", it's "too bad", which is what always happens when someone gets out of range of an auto-attack before it finishes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddaamg5zdkE&t=1m40s

Just check that :)
If it was a "miss", it would be prevented by Savage Mace, but I'm pretty sure you can't prevent that from happening (not that you'd ever be able to get a savage mace on WB's wolfs anyways :P).

[china]

no, it's not "miss", it's "too bad", which is what always happens when someone gets out of range of an auto-attack before it finishes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddaamg5zdke&t=1m40s

just check that :)
if it was a "miss", it would be prevented by savage mace, but i'm pretty sure you can't prevent that from happening (not that you'd ever be able to get a savage mace on wb's wolfs anyways :p).

all that matters is that i see red text. :<

[ElementUser]

The video you have requested is not available.

If you have recently uploaded this video, you may need to wait a few minutes for the video to process.

[Skyve]

Odd, because it's the monkey king spotlight from S2...

This should work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddaamg5zdkE&t=1m40s

(Okay that's actually the same link, but it's working now.)

[BeelzeJaeger]

Witch Slayer is OP.

That is all.

[ElementUser]

Aha Skyve, there's 1 difference:

E&t=1m40s

vs.


e&t=1m40s

I'm guessing the latter is invalid because it's a lower case e....

[Skyve]

They actually both work, and are both the same, but by the time I posted the link it really didn't work, for whatever reason :)

[PzKw]

The flaw in all this reasoning is that the attack point is the correct stat to change to stop the phenomena of wolves missing a fleeing hero over 400ms. There is a stat specifically for allowing attacks etc to continue up to the variable in range, it's the reason why a hero with a slow animation like Defiler will often start her foreswing animation with the hero in range, then release the projectile with the hero well outside her actual attack range. If it moves outside that leash range, it will create the Too bad animation with a miss.

I struggle to remember the variable, but I think it's called attackleash or something. As I recall it's pretty much a templated default stat that doesn't really get changed on many units.

The reason this is a better stat to change is because it has less of an effect on the rest of the balance of the wolves (WRT howl, IAS items and auras).

[Glibber`]

Does nomads strike fall under that same condition? Run away far and/or fast enough and it will dissapear.

[Skyve]

Does nomads strike fall under that same condition? Run away far and/or fast enough and it will dissapear.

Well...yes and no. You can prevent it from hurting you with hag/valk by using your escape while he starts his attack but before the attack hits you.
You can also blink far enough away to prevent it from going off if it's an illusion (since it only travels a certain distance/duration).

I'm pretty sure though that you can't out-run his attack animation, unlike with warbeasts dogs (and possibly engi too :P).

[ElementUser]

The flaw in all this reasoning is that the attack point is the correct stat to change to stop the phenomena of wolves missing a fleeing hero over 400ms. There is a stat specifically for allowing attacks etc to continue up to the variable in range, it's the reason why a hero with a slow animation like Defiler will often start her foreswing animation with the hero in range, then release the projectile with the hero well outside her actual attack range. If it moves outside that leash range, it will create the Too bad animation with a miss.

I struggle to remember the variable, but I think it's called attackleash or something. As I recall it's pretty much a templated default stat that doesn't really get changed on many units.

The reason this is a better stat to change is because it has less of an effect on the rest of the balance of the wolves (WRT howl, IAS items and auras).

Set "g_unitGuardReaggroDistance" "500.0000"

It's possible it's not this one, but through experimental testing the buffer range is ~500.

[ChillyWater]

God, please, just stop it >_>
I was simply proving my point... Valk is balanced and doesn't need to be nerfed at all

[Anakha]

I was simply proving my point... Valk is balanced and doesn't need to be nerfed at all

Except you're wrong. So so so so so wrong that it's like explaining to a LoL player the less obvious benefits of denying. Some of the reasons why you're wrong are in this thread.

[ChillyWater]

Except you're wrong. So so so so so wrong that it's like explaining to a LoL player the less obvious benefits of denying. Some of the reasons why you're wrong are in this thread.

How is she unbalanced? How would you nerf her?

[PRETENT10uS]

You could make it so that arrow doesn't do 360 magic damage and a 2 second stun at 600 range (i.e: ez pz range) for starters.

She's got really strong magic damage between her Call and her Javelin, a great escape skill, and an ult with global utility. Really, you could nerf any of her skills and it would be justified (within reason...).

Arrow pisses me off the most though because it's high reward is supposed to be offset by the fact that it's a 'skillshot', except it doesn't take any skill. Short range the skill does a buttload of damage and is undodgeable and still provides a decent stun, and long range it provides a buttload of damage and a ridiculous stun and you can't avoid it because Valk always has someone leading into it for her.

[the_guy117]

I sure wish :dead: root would stun instead of immobilize.

That's my two cents.

[ChillyWater]

You could make it so that arrow doesn't do 360 magic damage and a 2 second stun at 600 range (i.e: ez pz range) for starters.

She's got really strong magic damage between her Call and her Javelin, a great escape skill, and an ult with global utility. Really, you could nerf any of her skills and it would be justified (within reason...).


I think the nerf on the damage would be welcome and the 2sec stun at 600 would also be nice... I used to think that Valk's javelin would do a max damage of 360 at max range is this the case? Would this "balance" :valk: if her arrow would deal less dmg the closer it was thrown from?


I sure wish :dead: root would stun instead of immobilize.

That's my two cents.

I think it immobilizes so it isn't OverPowered. If it stunned you couldn't save/slow/stun/activate void before dw ult's...
Does that make sense? ^

[PzKw]

I used to think that Valk's javelin would do a max damage of 360 at max range is this the case?
It's funny you should mention that, because so did the person who designed the hero before a certain person who was in charge of DotA changed it.

The most compelling arguments I've ever seen for a nerf to PotM were from the person who originally designed her.

[ChillyWater]

It's funny you should mention that, because so did the person who designed the hero before a certain person who was in charge of DotA changed it.

The most compelling arguments I've ever seen for a nerf to PotM were from the person who originally designed her.

Do you think S2 should do this? Even if it's different to DotA's PotM?
Edit: I am a bit confused by what you said...

[lucife3]

nh is op cause he smokes and is still not dead he should have cancer nuff said

[changlingbob]

So, this is a stupid idea that no-one will ever agree on: has there ever (recently?) been a 'tier list' of most OP to most UP heroes? Obviously comparing heroes for different roles is hard, but it would be interesting to have some kind of scale to at least know where to focus any attention and where to be all 'hero is fine, yo'.

Although, again, this would be useless as there would be no way of getting people to agree.

[ChillyWater]

So, this is a stupid idea that no-one will ever agree on: has there ever (recently?) been a 'tier list' of most OP to most UP heroes? Obviously comparing heroes for different roles is hard, but it would be interesting to have some kind of scale to at least know where to focus any attention and where to be all 'hero is fine, yo'.

Although, again, this would be useless as there would be no way of getting people to agree.

You could compare heroes within the same role (e.g pushers, gankers, carries) but even that would be hard cause many heroes aren't just one role(e.g :balp: is a tank and a pusher).
And I agree with you on that it would be very difficult to make players agree... mainly because of different playstyles, preferences and tier players.

[PzKw]

Do you think S2 should do this? Even if it's different to DotA's PotM?
Edit: I am a bit confused by what you said...

I do think she needs tweaks. I don't think there's much in the way of a compelling argument for leaving PotM or Valk as they are.

[Hsssh]

I do think she needs tweaks. I don't think there's much in the way of a compelling argument for leaving PotM or Valk as they are.

It says a lot when most compelling argument is either "Everyone loves Valk" or "Valk is balanced because she is balanced".

[Skyve]

The thing is Valk is an "established" imbalance, which is why it's usually left as is.
That and, changing her too much would easily make her useless.

[PzKw]

Then change her a little at a time. She might be established as overpowered, but she's not comfortably so...

[XFlame]

I wonder if the recent Balph/Moraxus changes were actually enough to push them into competitive play. I sure hope so, as I quite enjoy seeing/watching them (Balph being one of my favorite heroes).

[Lethe]

dunno, Balph is a utter joke compared to what he was when Chalice was around.

Doubt Moraxus will be used. His ult needs something else. Like applying a charge of axed, increased radius, etc.

[china]

dunno, Balph is a utter joke compared to what he was when Chalice was around.

Doubt Moraxus will be used. His ult needs something else. Like applying a charge of axed, increased radius, etc.

OR SLOWS EVERYONE TO 1 MS.

ez.

[Bojangles15]

Balph got played at least twice in NASL recently. [MSI] just likes to force weird line-ups (support:tort:)

[GregerMoek]

Not to mention those 4melee setups.

[Skyve]

Balph got played at least twice in NASL recently. [MSI] just likes to force weird line-ups (support:tort:)

Yeah, but he lost at least one of those games :)
He still did impressive, and it could have been better if LION (I think) specced Mojo on their Voodoo Jester, because their whole strategy failed just because Tundra was able to take down their creepwaves/minions with his axes, and just having Mojo and the mana support from Nymph would have been enough to keep it going.

[XFlame]

dunno, Balph is a utter joke compared to what he was when Chalice was around.

Doubt Moraxus will be used. His ult needs something else. Like applying a charge of axed, increased radius, etc.
I wouldn't mind a bigger radius. At least when Balph is about to blow up he'll make people scared in a fairly decent radius, but all you have to do with Moraxus is split up and he can get one person at best, or he's forced to blow it early.

[Bojangles15]

Yeah, but he lost at least one of those games :)
He still did impressive, and it could have been better if LION (I think) specced Mojo on their Voodoo Jester, because their whole strategy failed just because Tundra was able to take down their creepwaves/minions with his axes, and just having Mojo and the mana support from Nymph would have been enough to keep it going.

Saw the whole [MSI] | Complexity(?) series when he was picked, and it was a pretty gutsy move for a game 3. Lots of fun! I just caught the end of that other game when they were losing Raxx so I didn't really get to see it play out.

It seems his ult really works well against certain lineups, as his tanki-ness and insane turn-around capacity sound really good on paper when you consider that most pro teams are able to extend team-fights by not being stupidly caught out of place and by disrupting the enemy's follow up. It's not often you're going to see Balph get dropped at the start of a fight and if he lasts long enough, he's a ticking time bomb. Situational, but it would be cool to see him more and more.

[Skyve]

The only problem I have with his ult is that newer heroes are getting incredibly cheap manacosts.

I mean Pyromancer/Plague/Witch/Polly have >500 mana on their lvl2-3 ults. Something as expensive as that isn't on newer heroes, which reduces the strength of his ult somewhat.

[Bojangles15]

Wow, the funny thing is I thought it acted like PS/MB in that it relied on the number of spells, not the cost. I guess that explains the non-linear growth of charges then. Very insteresting.

[TRYTROUSERS]

Never really got why valk arrows stun for 1.5 seconds and do the full damage from a character model's distance away. I get the whole "its a skillshot thing", but a point blank arrow isnt a skillshot.

[Tupimus]

Never really got why valk arrows stun for 1.5 seconds and do the full damage from a character model's distance away. I get the whole "its a skillshot thing", but a point blank arrow isnt a skillshot.
Because every time there's even talk of her getting a nerf it's like the fanbois cry out a flood comparable to the one described in the bloody Bible.

[china]

PotM is broke?

[Ekamo]

Never really got why valk arrows stun for 1.5 seconds and do the full damage from a character model's distance away. I get the whole "its a skillshot thing", but a point blank arrow isnt a skillshot.

If a player somehow ended up in that situation where they are running away (not zigzagging) and have Valkyrie JUST beside them, they deserve to get stunned :)

[Vermillion_]

@ Pzkw, out of interest did the person who created PoTM have any suggestions in what way he would change/nerf PoTM?

[the_guy117]

I think it immobilizes so it isn't OverPowered. If it stunned you couldn't save/slow/stun/activate void before dw ult's...
Does that make sense? ^

Maybe, but try ganking with :dead: without a PK.

(hint: it does not work against heroes with any CC/invis. EVAR!)

[ChillyWater]

The thing is Valk is an "established" imbalance, which is why it's usually left as is.
That and, changing her too much would easily make her useless.

That is exactly it... Though I am willing for her to get nerfed because in hon there are good heroes and bad heroes... The players can be great and kick ass but if they were a different hero they would do a whole lot better

[ChillyWater]

Maybe, but try ganking with :dead: without a PK.

(hint: it does not work against heroes with any CC/invis. EVAR!)

I understand your point of view but it would buff :dead: to much... it would mean that if you landed root you would get a kill(occasionally you wouldn't) but it would make his ability to gank to great

That's my two cents

[skeloperch]

If a player somehow ended up in that situation where they are running away (not zigzagging) and have Valkyrie JUST beside them, they deserve to get stunned :)

You can't dodge an arrow when it's thrown at closer than 700 distance without 400+ movement speed or something.

In the case of DW, I don't think he needs another stun. He needs his 2nd/wrd ability to be more useful. I mean, all DW's 2nd skill is is +60 damage for 4 attacks and then a ministun with a tapering slow. Could we not change it so that it applies the tapering slow to his regular attack (albeit at a shorter duration, like 0.7 seconds or something).

[ChillyWater]

I think you find we were talking about his root... Changing it to stun instead of immoblize. But what you said about his uproot about it needing to be more useful, I think +60 dmg and a ministun with a tapering slow is useful enough

[GregerMoek]

While I realize Deadwood is extremely derp, his animations are just so awesome, that ult is one of the most satisfying smackdown skills, along with Legi's ult, Gauntlet's fist, and Thunderbringers blast.

While the suggestions makes Deadwood stronger it doesn't change the derp factor, I doubt something without a remake ever will however, and at the same time I don't want a remake of at least his Rotten Grasp and Willowmaker. The treecutting skill and uproot could somehow be combined however, or changed/remade and still give the same "feeling" with the hero.

[pewpewstar]

While I realize Deadwood is extremely derp, his animations are just so awesome, that ult is one of the most satisfying smackdown skills, along with Legi's ult, Gauntlet's fist, and Thunderbringers blast.

O gosh this. Punching people in the face was never so much fun lol

[ChillyWater]

O gosh this. Punching people in the face was never so much fun lol


While I realize Deadwood is extremely derp, his animations are just so awesome, that ult is one of the most satisfying smackdown skills, along with Legi's ult, Gauntlet's fist, and Thunderbringers blast.

While the suggestions makes Deadwood stronger it doesn't change the derp factor, I doubt something without a remake ever will however, and at the same time I don't want a remake of at least his Rotten Grasp and Willowmaker. The treecutting skill and uproot could somehow be combined however, or changed/remade and still give the same "feeling" with the hero.

Though I never play dw, I agree. His ult is very satisfying. Also, I don't think DW need's a buff. I think there is a line at which on one side a hero is OP/UP but on the other side the hero is balanced/fine and the players just need to learn how to play that hero (not that the player is BAD)

[changlingbob]

There's a thread proposing buffs for a recently buffed arachna.

Can we just nerf the **** out of the OP heroes now please, before this madness spreads?

[Zilrax]

It's too late. The madness has taken root, now it's just a matter of time til copy picks is allowed and everyone just plays Sil and MoA. While mounted on their free Flying Couriers!

[Ekamo]

You can't dodge an arrow when it's thrown at closer than 700 distance without 400+ movement speed or something.

In the case of DW, I don't think he needs another stun. He needs his 2nd/wrd ability to be more useful. I mean, all DW's 2nd skill is is +60 damage for 4 attacks and then a ministun with a tapering slow. Could we not change it so that it applies the tapering slow to his regular attack (albeit at a shorter duration, like 0.7 seconds or something).


You can't dodge an arrow when it's thrown at closer than 700 distance without 400+ movement speed or something.


You can't dodge an arrow


can't

Oh lord... Now I see why people think Valkyrie is OP.

If you seriously think a skill shot from a skilled player is impossible to dodge this discussion is worthless.
Skill counters skill.

Unreliability is what balances high and maybe even OP numbers ON PAPER.
And Valkyrie's arrow is far from reliable.

[Skyve]

Oh lord... Now I see why people think Valkyrie is OP.

If you seriously think a skill shot from a skilled player is impossible to dodge this discussion is worthless.
Skill counters skill.

Maybe read what he wrote...

[Ekamo]

Maybe read what he wrote...

I know what he wrote. And I don't agree. Good players outskill a Valkyrie (not getting in positions when they can't move) as much as she does to them. 700 range is a lot and is absolutely dodgeable if you are paying attention.

[skeloperch]

I know what he wrote. And I don't agree. Good players outskill a Valkyrie (not getting in positions when they can't move) as much as she does to them. 700 range is a lot and is absolutely dodgeable if you are paying attention.

The arrow is bound to catch you at 700 range unless you reach a certain threshold of MS. I believe it's 400, but I could be wrong. Still, short range arrows are extremely deadly because they can't be dodged. Long range ones can, but it is extremely easy to throw a short range arrow and get 2 seconds of stun.

It's also not the arrow that makes her OP (though it's one of the factors), it's her leap and nuke. I don't know of any stronger escape mechanism in the game, and Pyro's level 1 ultimate deals as much damage as Valkyrie's first skill. Arrow is unreliable at a distance, but in close range it's still a 360 damage, .5-2 second stun.


Anyways, S2 tried to remake DW once, but it flopped. I rather liked punting people 500 units, but it was just bad. An idea I had for a remake was to make DW's tree like Moraxus' axes in the fact that you pick up a tree, get the + damage, but you can expend a charge to throw a skillshot that is equivalent to the current throw. That would give him a reason to run to a tree and pick it up after he uses his current one; later in the game atleast.

Speaking of skills that should be remade, how do you guys feel about Legionnaire's ultimate? I know it's the only skill that is able to kill Accursed through his ultimate, but still, why does it have to be so weak if you miss the kill threshold? I can't even count how many times someone has escaped with a sliver of health because they had just barely enough hp to survive my decapitate. It's frustrating and is a bad skill that should be remade.

[PzKw]

@ Pzkw, out of interest did the person who created PoTM have any suggestions in what way he would change/nerf PoTM?

I can't remember, but I remember the gist of it.

[Ekamo]

Maybe read what he wrote...


The arrow is bound to catch you at 700 range unless you reach a certain threshold of MS. I believe it's 400, but I could be wrong. Still, short range arrows are extremely deadly because they can't be dodged. Long range ones can, but it is extremely easy to throw a short range arrow and get 2 seconds of stun.


This is implying the player launching the arrow will aim towards the center of your hero.
Which is implying that a player won't react to the animation when it was thrown and try to fake movements to trick :valk:.

Not saying it is uncommon for a Valkyrie to hit arrow when at this distance, just saying that at times it can be an extremely unreliable skill which balances out the high numbers on it.

[ChillyWater]

The arrow is bound to catch you at 700 range unless you reach a certain threshold of MS. I believe it's 400, but I could be wrong. Still, short range arrows are extremely deadly because they can't be dodged. Long range ones can, but it is extremely easy to throw a short range arrow and get 2 seconds of stun.

It's also not the arrow that makes her OP (though it's one of the factors), it's her leap and nuke. I don't know of any stronger escape mechanism in the game, and Pyro's level 1 ultimate deals as much damage as Valkyrie's first skill. Arrow is unreliable at a distance, but in close range it's still a 360 damage, .5-2 second stun.

Anyways, S2 tried to remake DW once, but it flopped. I rather liked punting people 500 units, but it was just bad. An idea I had for a remake was to make DW's tree like Moraxus' axes in the fact that you pick up a tree, get the + damage, but you can expend a charge to throw a skillshot that is equivalent to the current throw. That would give him a reason to run to a tree and pick it up after he uses his current one; later in the game atleast.

Speaking of skills that should be remade, how do you guys feel about Legionnaire's ultimate? I know it's the only skill that is able to kill Accursed through his ultimate, but still, why does it have to be so weak if you miss the kill threshold? I can't even count how many times someone has escaped with a sliver of health because they had just barely enough hp to survive my decapitate. It's frustrating and is a bad skill that should be remade.

I personally still hold to the fact that valk would be balanced if valk's arrow did dmg (a max of 360) according to how far it has traveled. Her "q" is a powerful nuke and could do with a slight nerf but someone had said it before, " Valk is an established OP hero". If ther just nerfed her arrow I would be happy (i'll still be happy even if they dont ;) )

I have come to the conclusion :dead: is fine :smile:

Lego's ult is fine as it but it is a hard "skillshot" making him a rewarding and powerful hero. Though maybe a slight buff to his ult is in order. (+50 more magic dmg at all lvls or make it physical)



If you seriously think a skill shot from a skilled player is impossible to dodge this discussion is worthless.
Skill counters skill.

Unreliability is what balances high and maybe even OP numbers ON PAPER.
And Valkyrie's arrow is far from reliable.

Why Valk is an established OP hero is because people don't dodge valk's arrow. If people could dodge her arrows she wouldn't me such a powerful, game breaking pick.

[skeloperch]

This is implying the player launching the arrow will aim towards the center of your hero.
Which is implying that a player won't react to the animation when it was thrown and try to fake movements to trick :valk:.

Not saying it is uncommon for a Valkyrie to hit arrow when at this distance, just saying that at times it can be an extremely unreliable skill which balances out the high numbers on it.

Still, a 360 damage nuke is a 360 damage nuke, and this skill always stuns (.5-5 seconds). And it's not like the rest of Valkyrie isn't reliable enough to make up for the arrow.

[Ekamo]

Why Valk is an established OP hero is because people don't dodge valk's arrow. If people could dodge her arrows she wouldn't me such a powerful, game breaking pick.

Hey, I never claimed she was OP in the first place.

She has her strengths as well as her weaknesses.

Her main weakness except the obvious squishyness is her unreliability factor.
Her main strengths being high POTENTIAL damage output as well as being 600 range with a decent mobility skill.

Only looking at her strengths and judging the hero from there is something I see so many people do on this forum and that is what I don't agree with.

[ChillyWater]

Hey, I never claimed she was OP in the first place.

She has her strengths as well as her weaknesses.

Her main weakness except the obvious squishyness is her unreliability factor.
Her main strengths being high POTENTIAL damage output as well as being 600 range with a decent mobility skill.

Only looking at her strengths and judging the hero from there is something I see so many people do on this forum and that is what I don't agree with.

Oh... :souls:
But she is hardly squishy, she has high survivabilty (leap + ult)

Also, I was saying before that she is an OP hero to those players who can't dodge her arrow.

[china]

I really think her strength is simply in her consistency to perform well, rather than her capacity to reach a great ceiling. Even in hard games, she can still do extremely well. Really don't find her broken :< o well. All I play is warbeast anyways.

[skeloperch]

I really think her strength is simply in her consistency to perform well, rather than her capacity to reach a great ceiling. Even in hard games, she can still do extremely well. Really don't find her broken :< o well. All I play is warbeast anyways.

That and her innate squishiness doesn't offset her strengths. Look at all of the other squishy heroes; do they have the potential Valkyrie does, or the consistency? Heroes like EW have the consistency, but not the potential. Heroes like MK have the potential, but not the consistency.

[Ekamo]

I really think her strength is simply in her consistency to perform well, rather than her capacity to reach a great ceiling. Even in hard games, she can still do extremely well. Really don't find her broken :< o well. All I play is warbeast anyways.

With a countered ulti and missed arrows she is simply a 600 ranged 300 aoe nuke with a decent mobility skill and semi-good autoattacks.

Sure, it could be worse, but calling her consistent in her performance might be a slight over exagerration?

[PRETENT10uS]

Hrm, yes, Leap is just a 'decent' mobility skill.

Magebane's blink? Yawn, I guess it's 'okay' or something...

[Skyve]

Hrm, yes, Leap is just a 'decent' mobility skill.

Magebane's blink? Yawn, I guess it's 'okay' or something...

Unlike Valks leap, it has a cast time. No cast time > all (well, actually it's < all, but w/e :O).

[Ekamo]

Ridicolously long cd on early levels (and late also actually), a fixed amount of distance, no cast time (for epic cancelings yao, (jk)).

Magebane's Blink > All

[Skyve]

a fixed amount of distance

Um... every blink safe for DR repulsor has a fixed amount of distance...

[PRETENT10uS]

Magebane's Blink > All
My point wasn't to make a 1:1 comparison of Leap vs Blink because Blink is obviously better, but instead to show you how you are dismissive of the strengths of a skill because it suits your argument.

Also, the crux of your argument was that Valk sucks if she doesn't have two of her skills. Which is pretty :arma:

[Ekamo]

Um... every blink safe for DR repulsor has a fixed amount of distance...

I meant as you can't manipulate with all range that is less than max range.


Also, the crux of your argument was that Valk sucks if she doesn't have two of her skills. Which is pretty :arma:

In some games her arrow and ulti can be the deciding factor.
In some they are mainly worthless.

Valkyrie is one of those heroes who really excels when her team has an advantage in terms of map control but when they her team is at a disadvantage she doesn't bring as much to the table.

Sure, good arrows can always turn the game around but if the opponents have the map control it is pretty hard to land those vs aware opponents.

[Skyve]

In some games her arrow and ulti can be the deciding factor.

Don't forget that arrows are useful besides just being a stun and magic damage - they also give vision :)

[Ekamo]

Don't forget that arrows are useful besides just being a stun and magic damage - they also give vision :)

True this! ;)

[pewpewstar]

I have a random question. When should a hero be subjected to a partial/full remake?

Just because there're so many posts crying for it.

[PzKw]

I can't remember, but I remember the gist of it.
The general gist, since I now have a keyboard:

Nerf any of her trainables in one way.

Starfall: Remove double hit and out of range hitchance (second one happened, but for entirely different reasons).
Arrow: Scale damage to range, or rescale stun time over the course of the range, or reduce overall range.
Leap: Reduce range to the original intended amount and/or remove disjoint (the disjoint used to be more retarded and you required truesight to have any real chance of effecting her while Leap was off CD).

Basically PotM was never the hero she was envisaged as. PotM was originally intended to be a support ganker who couldn't really do anything much on her own, but substantially aided allies (read her original description and blurb). She turned into precisely the opposite, being the first "do anything I want to" style of hero. Her AGI gain was on par with hard carries like Slithice and Jahrakal with a great animation and excellent range, her burst was (still is) one of the highest non-ultimate bursts in the game, she has one of the highest threat ranges in the game, still has amongst the longest disables in the game and a global ulti that is useful in a tonne of situations and can potentially be gamebreaking. I hate it when people write narratives about heroes, but there's almost no way to compare this to another hero in the game even slightly. She truly is just amazing at everything, and only balanced by having low HP, which the entire concept of the hero works around (mobile, high burst, long threat range, capacity to pick your fights based on how your arrow does), and arguably low base attack damage.

She just needs something toned down, really. The concept of a highly mobile burster who doesn't need to commit to have a huge effect, and can semicarry is always going to be relevant if it's anywhere near the power curve.

[the_guy117]

I understand your point of view but it would buff :dead: to much... it would mean that if you landed root you would get a kill(occasionally you wouldn't) but it would make his ability to gank to great

That's my two cents

There's also aiming the root to account for the delay (which I believe is now 1.66 seconds), plus cast animation. Try landing it on someone with haste. Try landing it on someone with fog.

Once :pebb: finds someone's general position, he can just pk in and yadayadayada you get the idea.

Conceivably, one :dead: could pk in and ult first, but that won't do as much damage as Root-->ult.

Also, Deadwood can only gank every 85/75/65 seconds, whereas pebbles can gank every 20 seconds.

And those who are smart will get ringmail to royally **** over :dead:, making said hero ungankable, unless said hero is :doct: :bubb: because they burn faster than paper.


Oh lord... Now I see why people think Valkyrie is OP.

If you seriously think a skill shot from a skilled player is impossible to dodge this discussion is worthless.
Skill counters skill.

Unreliability is what balances high and maybe even OP numbers ON PAPER.
And Valkyrie's arrow is far from reliable.

Hey, person is right. :valk: is pretty OP...if you get hit by 11/10 arrows.

[PzKw]

And suddenly the pro-Valk side goes to ad hominem, as always happens with Valk conversations. It's not that arrow can't be dodged. You've missed the point worse than the arrows in your imagination miss.

[Dawnbringer]

There's also aiming the root to account for the delay (which I believe is now 1.66 seconds), plus cast animation. Try landing it on someone with haste. Try landing it on someone with fog.

Once :pebb: finds someone's general position, he can just pk in and yadayadayada you get the idea.

Conceivably, one :dead: could pk in and ult first, but that won't do as much damage as Root-->ult.

Also, Deadwood can only gank every 85/75/65 seconds, whereas pebbles can gank every 20 seconds.

And those who are smart will get ringmail to royally **** over :dead:, making said hero ungankable, unless said hero is :doct: :bubb: because they burn faster than paper.



Hey, person is right. :valk: is pretty OP...if you get hit by 11/10 arrows.
Lol. Ult -> Root does more damage than root -> ult due to strength reduction. Learn mechanics. Also both Doc and Bubbles can quite easily avoid deadwood. Bubbles can shellsurf -> take cover (even out of root) whereas Doctor can stun you and ult away when your root wears off. Oh, and nullstone are also very common pickups on those 2 heroes...

Valk is good at everything and therein lies the issue. It isn't just the arrows, it is that her whole skill set is good, but in addition she has decent stat gains AND no filler skills. That is, all her skills are highly useful/powerful.

[PzKw]

Lol. Ult -> Root does more damage than root -> ult due to strength reduction. Learn mechanics. Also both Doc and Bubbles can quite easily avoid deadwood. Bubbles can shellsurf -> take cover (even out of root) whereas Doctor can stun you and ult away when your root wears off. Oh, and nullstone are also very common pickups on those 2 heroes...

Erm.

Wouldn't a 24% EHP reduction from the -4 armour be more than the -20% (absolute best case scenario since they might have HP that comes from something other than strength) HP reduction from losing 20% of strength if you were only looking at physical damage?

[Dawnbringer]

Erm.

Wouldn't a 24% EHP reduction from the -4 armour be more than the -20% (absolute best case scenario since they might have HP that comes from something other than strength) HP reduction from losing 20% of strength if you were only looking at physical damage?
Depends on how much armor they have, since stacking armor is with diminishing returns. If someone has high armor and high str then ulti first may do more damage. Guess there are a lot of external factors (e.g. only stacking up magic armor to X etc) :3

Also forgot about the -armor :3

[PzKw]

Stacking armour does not produce diminishing returns. Every point of armour adds 6% to EHP. This is a flat out case of minimum 4% extra damage on using root first as far as I can say.

[Haruhi_sos]

I really honestly do believe that :mage: needs a remake on his blink. The ridiculous 6 seconds blink with barely any mana cost does wonders. It should at least be changed so that it does not provide allies with the magic armour, because really this grants this hero basically 5 skills (the magic armour as a previous one build into blink).

I know that he's a survival mobility carry, but the 320 base movement also contributes much to his survival. With this, a blink every 6 seconds at only 60 mana, it's near impossible to catch him later in the game.

Before people begin to flame saying "Don't drag the game that late" sometimes it just can't be helped.

My idea would be to nerf him would be either increase the cooldown on blink by 1-2 seconds (similarly to the change on :madm:'s stalk a while ago) OR to increase the mana cost for blink/ reduce intel stat gain per level. Either of these changes will not nerf him too badly so as he will no longer be picked, because honestly an auto-attack hero with low skill required to play (2/5 rating as per listed by the in-game goblin store) should not have a constant weekly win ratio of >52% and be in the top 30 most played every 7 days.

[ChillyWater]

I really honestly do believe that :mage: needs a remake on his blink. The ridiculous 6 seconds blink with barely any mana cost does wonders. It should at least be changed so that it does not provide allies with the magic armour, because really this grants this hero basically 5 skills (the magic armour as a previous one build into blink).

I know that he's a survival mobility carry, but the 320 base movement also contributes much to his survival. With this, a blink every 6 seconds at only 60 mana, it's near impossible to catch him later in the game.

Before people begin to flame saying "Don't drag the game that late" sometimes it just can't be helped.

My idea would be to nerf him would be either increase the cooldown on blink by 1-2 seconds (similarly to the change on :madm:'s stalk a while ago) OR to increase the mana cost for blink/ reduce intel stat gain per level. Either of these changes will not nerf him too badly so as he will no longer be picked, because honestly an auto-attack hero with low skill required to play (2/5 rating as per listed by the in-game goblin store) should not have a constant weekly win ratio of >52% and be in the top 30 most played every 7 days.
I think this is quite valid, though only on paper... I know I may not be the best player in the world (specially at carrying) but mb is still killable with silences/stuns. I personally don't think mb need's a nerf

[GregerMoek]

The best scenario would ofcourse be to Willowmaker 0.1seconds after Root is applied! Best of both worlds.

[dan22]

So when is fayde getting a nerf? Getting killed in a stunlock is getting boring, brb spending 700gold on a eye when he gets level 6 to counter..... Add in a codex and games pretty much over. last 4 games with fayde have seem to be 13-2/12-1/11-2 etc most people rage concede with his early game ganking :X

[Skyve]

A single stun doesn't even remotely justify the term "stunlock".

[Zilrax]

Have you been placing wards of revelation down in your lane and by other wards? It helps. Sadly not as effective now that we are limited in revelation wards numbers, but it definitely doesn't hurt.

[Bojangles15]

I hate AP because it's literally the only mode that ever pops and half of the game is determined by how annoying either team's hero choices are. Most of the time, people ghost pick heroes who are balanced because they have counters, and conversely borderline OP when said counters aren't in the game. It's boring to lose to a terrible magebane who freefarms because you're the only person on your team to pick a disable.

[Skyve]

I hate AP because it's literally the only mode that ever pops and half of the game is determined by how annoying either team's hero choices are. Most of the time, people ghost pick heroes who are balanced because they have counters, and conversely borderline OP when said counters aren't in the game. It's boring to lose to a terrible magebane who freefarms because you're the only person on your team to pick a disable.

Also, 5 melees...

[Zilrax]

Or all hard carries.

[Skyve]

I thought all melee were hardcarries? Or at least it looks like it considering the more common item builds and how much they like to take farm :(

[skeloperch]

I thought all melee were hardcarries? Or at least it looks like it considering the more common item builds and how much they like to take farm :(

All melee are tanks, unless they're agility and then they're hard carries. Intelligence melee is always support, because HEAUHEUAHEUAHEUA////

I thought you would know this by now. :(

But yeah, AP sucks, unless you're like me and can play every hero decently, then AP becomes a non-issue. But really, just pick Fayde, Pebbles, Valkrie, or Monkey King and rape you some pubs.

[Skyve]

Tundra is where it's at :D

[XFlame]

AP is a retard mode anyway. Might as well bring back bonus gold on random.

[skeloperch]

Tundra is where it's at :D


He's good, yeah, but nothing beats a level 9 Fayde strollin' down to your lane and insta-killing you, or a Pebbles portal keying in your face.


But really, the best pub hero is :para: because no one ganks or wards jungles until high 1700's, and you can carry and anti-carry with enough farm.

[snae]

I feel like every S2 hero added makes the game more and more unbalanced.

[Zilrax]

I feel like every S2 hero added makes the game more and more balanced. Why? Because.

Yeah AP mode is pretty derp, but it's better than Single Draft. Lose straight up at the pick screen? Aw yeah! I'd take it just so it forces me to play heroes I'm not used to in case I'm ever stuck with something I'm unfamiliar with. Like every ranged hero.

[TRYTROUSERS]

yeah i really enjoy heros like monarch that make positioning completely pointless. you can basically run into 5 heros and it doesn't matter cause here comes cleansing wind and a cucoon that no one can do anything about.

[ElementUser]

Trytrousers y u hate S2 heroes so much

[Skyve]

Can't you purge the cocoon?

[c0rrosive]

Is it just me or is whispering helm kinda broken?

[skeloperch]

Is it just me or is whispering helm kinda broken?


Only if you get good creep spawns. I've had matches where the only creeps that spawned after I bought whispering helm were Vultures. That was the match I stopped buying the item.

[Third]

make geomancers ult have longer or even global castrange, plox!

[Skyve]

make geomancers ult have longer or even global castrange, plox!

Reminds me of when they gave Glacius 200 cast range on his ult. Was horribly broken.

[china]

Reminds me of when they gave Glacius 200 cast range on his ult. Was horribly broken.

solo glac mid in sbt, go 11-0 ez.

[Skyve]

I wish I was in SBT, but now I'm below 1700 again.

I should just have stopped playing at 1717 or w/e that was.

[china]

The early iterations of SBT, play pebbles go 16-2 in every game, basically. I suspect it would very much be the same today :b

Kinda worthless.

[Benny0]

I know very well he's not OP at all, but I hate Blood Hunter so much. Most of the time he doesn't do much but there's always that chance of him filling up to full HP out of nowhere during fights. And that silence is still annoying...

Certainly not OP, but the concept of the hero I guess just pisses me off.

[GregerMoek]

lol compared to armadon or ra or ****ing I dont even know what Im talking about are more annoying than lolhunter. basicallt the only wahy he can own is when he pwns ur teammates and if that happens youre in the danger zone, prepare for zombie apocalupse mane.

[Benny0]

lol compared to armadon or ra or ****ing I dont even know what Im talking about are more annoying than lolhunter. basicallt the only wahy he can own is when he pwns ur teammates and if that happens youre in the danger zone, prepare for zombie apocalupse mane.

Well that's different, those heroes are also actually good heroes >_>

[KuroTatsu]

-Swiftblade's ult shouldnt be immune to dmg stuns yes dmg no.
-pred's 3rd skill should be an attack modifier it heals him way to much
-Archna's spider shot should not do magic dmg over time and have the 40% slow either cut the slow in half or ditch the dmg.
-null stone negates vindi's ult.....
-swiftblade first skill does way too muc dmg at lower lvls.
-the well tower in the base need longer attack range and more dmg people should not be able to kill u while ur in the pool and shouldnt be able to tower dive and live.
-panda is not balanced at all, all skills are way too much dmg for the amount of cc he has and his flick skill is broken then range doesnt matter, he can jump 800 range not 350.
-blood hunter is still not balanced he can kill a hero and gain full health back, blood sense should not grant sight to all his teammates also
-wildsoul and his pets movement speed is way too fast a scout stealth with ghost marchers cant keep up...
-emerald wardens bird can see through trees and attacks way to fast for the dmg it does
-nighthounds ult should cost mana like scouts stealth not same amount but some and he should not be able to disappear while someone is attacking him
-flux's ult triggers frostwolf skull.
-jeraziah's first ability should do true dmg or change succubus 3rd ability from true dmg
-devourer's decay should not beable to deny himself it should drop him to 1 health and stop
-scout's eye needs to auto drop next to him if u dbl click the icon

[Lethe]

random stuff:

I like where Dampeer is now.

Cthuluphant is such a boring hero it's unbelievable. Don't know how a hero with 3 actives can be so dull, but man :p

I dislike having to pick MB just to counter Ra which seems to be happening too often -_-

Moraxus is utter trash, perhaps only better than BH

[TRYTROUSERS]

Trytrousers y u hate S2 heroes so much

They had a few good ones like Balph Gaunt and Chipper, but the recent trend of "lets put blink/massive aoe on EVERYTHING" is bad and needs to stop.

[changlingbob]

Arachna thread continues to be the actual worst thread.

[XFlame]

random stuff:



Cthuluphant is such a boring hero it's unbelievable. Don't know how a hero with 3 actives can be so dull, but man :p

You've clearly never played him with Insanitarius.

Me neither, but it sounds fun.

[ChillyWater]

Tundra is where it's at :D

That is all :tund:

[Machiavelli`]

Or how about replacing Geo's ulti with Ancient Apparition's ulti from Dota? *ninja9

[GregerMoek]

Also kinda funny thing here. Ra and Emerald Warden makes Swiftblade appear like a more "skill" hero than before. I remember people whining about skillblade so much, not anymoar *****es cause we got this new thing called auto aim for ya!

[Skyve]

Swift still stomps in the 1500 bracket. Do you have any idea how saddening it is to stomp someone as Electrician mid, just to lose the game because there's a 15-0 swiftblade on another lane that you can't even gank because they basically outfarm and level you? :(

[SmurfinBird]

Swift still stomps in the 1500 bracket. Do you have any idea how saddening it is to stomp someone as Electrician mid, just to lose the game because there's a 15-0 swiftblade on another lane that you can't even gank because they basically outfarm and level you? :(

Is that a "Y U NO LET ME SMURF AND WIN WHEN IM 1600" post?

:D

But true though about people complaining less about sb, since Ra and EW.

[Skyve]

Is that a "Y U NO LET ME SMURF AND WIN WHEN IM 1600" post?Not really, it's just really frustrating to see people getting fed all the time while I have to do work to actually accomplish that :(

The only good part is that most swiftblades never buy any HP, so they die rather fast :)
I even almost managed to turn a game where a swiftblade got 23 kills around.

Almost.

And hey, I only smurf to improve my solo mid skills and learn some heroes I don't usually play on my main account, because of all the crying and whining that would insue :P

[dandylion]

Miss me some Dark Seer type skillset hero... I can haz? Except maybe without the illusion wall. Never much cared for that part.

[GregerMoek]

I guess Zeph is closest with his moderate AoE damage around himself and displacement skill in gust. Not saying he's close but still closest.

Or Electrician with the same thing but instead of displacement it's the surge. ^^

[SmurfinBird]

Not really, it's just really frustrating to see people getting fed all the time while I have to do work to actually accomplish that :(

The only good part is that most swiftblades never buy any HP, so they die rather fast :)
I even almost managed to turn a game where a swiftblade got 23 kills around.

Almost.

And hey, I only smurf to improve my solo mid skills and learn some heroes I don't usually play on my main account, because of all the crying and whining that would insue :P

There are perfectly legit reasons for using a lower mmr account. I'd probably play Tundra at a low 1600 level since I barely touch the hero, so before using that on an account in the 1850s or 1900s I should try it first before hardcore throwing :P.

Same sort of thing I did with a load of heroes; I was a pure support player but since I've had the ability to try out heroes on lower mmr such as pebbles I've become my mmr level whilst playing those heroes.


Swiftblade should go Abysal -> shieldbreaker -> nullfire/geos/nullstone/ other situational item in my opinion, whereas most argue he needs a runed axe. Only heroes with no steroid for farming such as magebane really require it to pick off; if your supports stack and you abysal you will have enough mana/armour/hp to take a jungle worth of 3x, same as you would with Runed.

Seems to give the same benefits as runed aside from the splash, but gives so lifesteal/armour+ for the team. It isn't much HP wise but you don't need 2k health to play swiftblade effectively.

Depends on playstyle more than anything.

[Skyve]

I honestly think that HotBL on Swiftblade is one of the best early choices. Allows you to spin around rather safely, without putting yourself into too much danger.

[Bojangles15]

We officially need a new patch because all of the balance threads have degenerated into garbage and I want a reason to come here again, if only for a few more days.

[SmurfinBird]

We officially need a new patch because all of the balance threads have degenerated into garbage and I want a reason to come here again, if only for a few more days.

Hence me posting in this. Balance "dump" in every sense. Just random remarks really.

[Machiavelli`]

I hate Emerald Warden so fcking much.. I'm not saying he is OP, he is probably not, but has the most annoying skillset.

I also hate Midas and Ra. **** them..

[PRETENT10uS]

Preemptive Gemini *****ing:
Gemini bringing out the big (7.0) statgrowth, 800 range disjoint/stun/300 magic damage nuke, 300 magic damage nuke/slow, strong damage coefficient skill (1.25 modifier, makes proc items ridiculous), and an ultimate (no mana cost) that lets him split to farm multiple locations at once.

Why, S2. Why you gotta do this.


Can't wait to see him in game!!!

[FlyingPantsu]

I really honestly do believe that :mage: needs a remake on his blink. The ridiculous 6 seconds blink with barely any mana cost does wonders. It should at least be changed so that it does not provide allies with the magic armour, because really this grants this hero basically 5 skills (the magic armour as a previous one build into blink).

I know that he's a survival mobility carry, but the 320 base movement also contributes much to his survival. With this, a blink every 6 seconds at only 60 mana, it's near impossible to catch him later in the game.

Before people begin to flame saying "Don't drag the game that late" sometimes it just can't be helped.

My idea would be to nerf him would be either increase the cooldown on blink by 1-2 seconds (similarly to the change on :madm:'s stalk a while ago) OR to increase the mana cost for blink/ reduce intel stat gain per level. Either of these changes will not nerf him too badly so as he will no longer be picked, because honestly an auto-attack hero with low skill required to play (2/5 rating as per listed by the in-game goblin store) should not have a constant weekly win ratio of >52% and be in the top 30 most played every 7 days.

Step 1: Pick Skill Slayer, Lollywog or any other hero with a disable or two.
Step 2: Bind the disables to every button you can find on your keyboard.
Step 3: Mash your hand on the keyboard while trying to click enemy with your mouse.
Step 4: Profit.

[china]

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=66659971

dampeer is still balls terrible.

[c0rrosive]

Step 1: Pick Skill Slayer, Lollywog or any other hero with a disable or two.
Step 2: Bind the disables to every button you can find on your keyboard.
Step 3: Mash your hand on the keyboard while trying to click enemy with your mouse.
Step 4: Profit.

It's funny to me I always see people recommend these types of heroes against MB, because it's the type of lineup I choose MB for...

[skeloperch]

Gemini is ridiculous fun. His first two skills deal 240 +60(3) + 300 (if you land the stun on them). That's 720 damage that you can achieve at level 8/9. Still not as high as Valkyrie's burst. In fact, I think Gemini is where Valkyrie should be. Long cooldown escape mechanism that costs large sums of mana but deals significant damage, only about 2.5 seconds of stun, melee range, and a passive that scales with your items.

[Skyve]

Gemini is ridiculous fun. His first two skills deal 240 +60(3) + 300 (if you land the stun on them). That's 720 damage that you can achieve at level 8/9. Still not as high as Valkyrie's burst. In fact, I think Gemini is where Valkyrie should be. Long cooldown escape mechanism that costs large sums of mana but deals significant damage, only about 2.5 seconds of stun, melee range, and a passive that scales with your items.

You are not making sense. Gemini's burst is about as high as Valkyrie if not higher.

[skeloperch]

You are not making sense. Gemini's burst is about as high as Valkyrie if not higher.

Valkyrie has 300 ( + 150) + 360, which equates to about 810 damage, whereas Gemini has 300 + 240 + 60 + 60 + 60, which equates to 720. There is a 90 damage difference. It's not much, but 90 damage can make or break a hero/skill. Don't forget that Twin Fang is like 3 times harder to hit than Valkyrie's arrow.

Also, Twin Strike is pretty lack luster until you complete your Thunder Claw. My general skill build for him (yes, he), is Ghost Marchers -> Frostbrand -> Thunder Claw -> Frostburn. Game is pretty much over by then.

Also, why does Gemini not have a voice? And why do Master of Arms and Gladiator not have a real background story yet? Seriously S2, Gladiator has been out for over a year, and you haven't written him a background story yet? FFFFFFFF

[Skyve]

The DoT does 60 damage over 3 seconds.

His burst comes from Q, W, split, (Q, W)x2. and it's higher.

[PzKw]

It's funny to me I always see people recommend these types of heroes against MB, because it's the type of lineup I choose MB for...

That's because you probably see them played as support. WS as a semi-carry shits on Magebane so hard for the first 30 minutes of an even match that it barely warrants discussion. If Magebane has a mediocre lane, and WS does what he's meant to at mid, Magebane will be a liability until at least 25 minutes, and a non-event for a while after that.

By that time, your team should have an actual carry happening, and WS slides into an initiator role, and you roll up their rax.

Except the smart money is on picking heroes that are wicked all game like Kraken and not needing the early win.

[skeloperch]

The DoT does 60 damage over 3 seconds.

His burst comes from Q, W, split, (Q, W)x2. and it's higher.

Somehow I read that as 60 per 1 for 3 instead of 60 over three. Still, the amount of time it takes to split and get the other burst off is quite high.

[Skyve]

Not really, since split is instant, and his other abilities are also pretty fast (and he starts the whole thing with a 2 second stun anyways, followed up by 2 0.5 second stuns).

[skeloperch]

Is it just me, or is Maliken REALLY annoying to fight?

[c0rrosive]

That's because you probably see them played as support. WS as a semi-carry shits on Magebane so hard for the first 30 minutes of an even match that it barely warrants discussion. If Magebane has a mediocre lane, and WS does what he's meant to at mid, Magebane will be a liability until at least 25 minutes, and a non-event for a while after that.

By that time, your team should have an actual carry happening, and WS slides into an initiator role, and you roll up their rax.

Except the smart money is on picking heroes that are wicked all game like Kraken and not needing the early win.

Not hard for MB to get a decent laning phase - not too hard, at least. On average I get helm on MB around the 17 minute mark, but I won't lie, I'm not in the highest bracket. Still, I really think MB's capacity to **** on WS of any build is pretty sick.

[Shadeward]

Not hard for MB to get a decent laning phase - not too hard, at least. On average I get helm on MB around the 17 minute mark, but I won't lie, I'm not in the highest bracket. Still, I really think MB's capacity to **** on WS of any build is pretty sick.

6 seconds of disable will destroy MB on any smart/organized team until he gets Shrunken. Even then, a blink on WS should give you the jump on him before he can immune himself.

[Bojangles15]

I think I just got 2 shot by the wolf. Too bad I don't know what items he had because he was always split.

[GregerMoek]

Well, to be honest a WS with early farm will **** on many things, sure Magebane included but not specifically if one asks me.

[skeloperch]

I think I just got 2 shot by the wolf. Too bad I don't know what items he had because he was always split.

Were you playing :andr:? I two shot an Andro earlier with Gemini :>

[PzKw]

Well, to be honest a WS with early farm will **** on many things, sure Magebane included but not specifically if one asks me.

The real point is that a WS shitting on most things all game will incur a higher cost to the team running the WS, since relatively speaking he isn't going to scale and snowball like a semicarry ganker or a carry will, and his rate of ganking is too low to keep multiple carries down (win all the battles, lose the war). It becomes strategically beneficial when the other team has a hero who is very important to their design for battle and can't effectively contribute that without farm and experience.

Magebane fits the bill for all of this perfectly. The only hero that gets shut out of a game harder than him by a really dominant WS is DR.

Edit: At the 17 minute Helm comment. Is that in a lane that was designed to keep you out? Also, I'm assuming the last item you picked up was the heart, so you effectively have no defence at all against the burst from his early blink until 17 minutes. The 17 minutes assumes you don't get aggressively warded. And very gank he launches after that is against you.

The point of a WS solo is to drag you and him out of the game, except that his skills let him contribute with the relatively lower amount of farm where your hugely delayed core doesn't. It's not foolproof, but it's a very workable strat.

[Bojangles15]

Were you playing :andr:? I two shot an Andro earlier with Gemini :>

Heh, no. Underfarmed/leveled slither. I think I was 9 and he was 13? I love losing 100% of games I don't go mid because whoever on my team does is always horrible and single handedly loses the game.

[PzKw]

I'm just going to jump in and say that the burst damage S2 is adding on their newest (melee) semicarries is getting out of hand.

It doesn't matter how hard it is to do - an agility carry should not have 1100 magic burst at 11, when dedicated nukers have comparable or less than that. Particularly not when these same heroes boast escapes and disjoints.

This is starting to get utterly ridiculous. Some serious discussion into this zebrabalance needs to be had in house.

[ElementUser]

I'm just going to jump in and say that the burst damage S2 is adding on their newest (melee) semicarries is beyond a ****ing joke.

It doesn't matter how hard it is to do - an agility carry should not have 1100 magic burst at 11, when dedicated nukers have less than that. Particularly not when these same heroes boast escapes and disjoints.

This is ridiculous. This is beyond a joke. If you want him to be a utility ganker, rework the passive and rescale the stat growths. Stop with the ****ing zebrabalance.

:silh:

[Lethe]

Twin Strikes is a cool but absolutely stupid concept that should not exist in HoN.

Not even accounting for various levels of the skill, you get absolutely retarded numbers like:

55.6% dps boost from thunderclaw
62.5% dps boost from charged hammer
47.6% dps boost from nullfire 1 (against mana-using unit)
58% dps boost from nullfire 2
28.4% dps boost from savage mace.

Just to clarify, those numbers are respective to owning the same item, but without twin strikes, and only considering damage dealt from that item alone.

Did whoever design this hero bother crunching any numbers? Does this look remotely fair?

[ElementUser]

At least Thunderclaw might be used more now.

[Lethe]

I just realized many of my abuses in dota/HoN come from abusing the math behind the skills.

Oh well.

[c0rrosive]

The real point is that a WS shitting on most things all game will incur a higher cost to the team running the WS, since relatively speaking he isn't going to scale and snowball like a semicarry ganker or a carry will, and his rate of ganking is too low to keep multiple carries down (win all the battles, lose the war). It becomes strategically beneficial when the other team has a hero who is very important to their design for battle and can't effectively contribute that without farm and experience.

Magebane fits the bill for all of this perfectly. The only hero that gets shut out of a game harder than him by a really dominant WS is DR.

Edit: At the 17 minute Helm comment. Is that in a lane that was designed to keep you out? Also, I'm assuming the last item you picked up was the heart, so you effectively have no defence at all against the burst from his early blink until 17 minutes. The 17 minutes assumes you don't get aggressively warded. And very gank he launches after that is against you.

The point of a WS solo is to drag you and him out of the game, except that his skills let him contribute with the relatively lower amount of farm where your hugely delayed core doesn't. It's not foolproof, but it's a very workable strat.

I actually do get the heart before lifetube for that very reason - still stay in lane just fine. What can I say? Last hit well, keep your finger on that blink spell (I played MB straight for a while a long time ago and managed to get the blink timing so well that I could blink out of an area the moment an enemy blinked in. Once fayde became a more popular pick, I stopped).

I generally play MB pretty passively, but I don't choose him unless there are those squishy INTs like tempest, ws, or polly. Also those heroes are generally caught off guard when a magebane blinks into them the moment they activate chalice, and I usually get ganks in there too. In all honesty though, I had much more protective wards protecting me than offensive ones to weed me out in every scenario.

[skeloperch]

I'm just going to jump in and say that the burst damage S2 is adding on their newest (melee) semicarries is getting out of hand.

It doesn't matter how hard it is to do - an agility carry should not have 1100 magic burst at 11, when dedicated nukers have comparable or less than that. Particularly not when these same heroes boast escapes and disjoints.

This is starting to get utterly ridiculous. Some serious discussion into this zebrabalance needs to be had in house.

I really think that DivA/Kaiser should be shafted in place of a balance census (Something like you, Anakha, and China or something. I shouldn't be allowed near anything like that because I would make everyone a carry nuker). BUT, the one gleaming downside of Gemini is that the wolves get raped inside out by anyone who had AoE.

The thing is, Gemini's burst is really avoidable. His W is so easy to dodge, Q has decently short range and small starting cone, him carrying entirely depends on how well he can avoid being kited, and the burst from his ulti is kinda justified since it doesn't get strike/escape mechanism. Once you suck up your tears and learn to dodge Gemini's skills, he really isn't that impressive.

Or you could just pick Cthulhuphant and rape him inside-out like I always do whenever I see someone pick Gemini :>

[PzKw]

As far as I know, all the things that really make me rage hard are Nome's doing. Diva and Kaiser seem mostly harmless but a tiny bit impotent and beholden to comp opinions.

Edit: the only thing stictly op about Gemini is that level 1 of his passive makes a tonne of items batshit. It makes his carry retarded for a hero who has so much else going for him.

[GregerMoek]

As far as I know, all the things that really make me rage hard are Nome's doing. Diva and Kaiser seem mostly harmless but a tiny bit impotent and beholden to comp opinions.

Edit: the only thing stictly op about Gemini is that level 1 of his passive makes a tonne of items batshit. It makes his carry retarded for a hero who has so much else going for him.

I personally like Buro's few additions too. Flux is ****ing awesome IMHO.

Edit:

The real point is that a WS shitting on most things all game will incur a higher cost to the team running the WS, since relatively speaking he isn't going to scale and snowball like a semicarry ganker or a carry will, and his rate of ganking is too low to keep multiple carries down (win all the battles, lose the war). It becomes strategically beneficial when the other team has a hero who is very important to their design for battle and can't effectively contribute that without farm and experience.

Magebane fits the bill for all of this perfectly. The only hero that gets shut out of a game harder than him by a really dominant WS is DR.

strat.

Yeah well, I can agree with that as chain CC is more reliable against heroes with blink escapes and similar stuff and might pretty much be overkill against heroes without, such as Sand Wraith. What I was saying was more or less that a heroes that are in fact possible to shut down almost completely with ganks or at least weakened a great bit like Magebane, Sand Wraith, tDL or DR as you mention. I guess your point was that the ammount of CC you get from WS is overkill if you invest a lot in it when the heroes you're up against can be dealt with without the 5seconds of control?

I guess this is in a way a subjective matter however, while it's always true that WS is best against these heroes, I personally think that WS is one of the better heroes when it comes to combat control overall (considering cooldown, reliability and duration) but he's quite the weak pusher and the items he scales best with are not related to damage output.

[XFlame]

Inb4secondattackfrompassivedoesn'ttriggerprocsanym ore?

[Dawnbringer]

Inb4secondattackfrompassivedoesn'ttriggerprocsanym ore?
Then it is just a flat damage amp and would serve about the same purpose as a 2x crit that procs 25% of the time.

[make7Dast]

hi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhWj5ztnaSU&feature=feedu

[Skyve]

Inb4secondattackfrompassivedoesn'ttriggerprocsanym ore?

If it doesn't do that, it's useless, and they might as well just turn it into either a passive crit or a base damage increase...

[Lethe]

imagine the rage that would come if you introduced a passive that doubles the damage from proc items. Thunderclaw/charged hammer doing 300/400 a proc, savage mace doing 200.

Oh wait that exists already and besides that it increases your raw dps by up to 25%.

Edit: Here's another one for you. Riftshards Level 4 increases his total dps minus proc items by 55%.

By comparison PA's ult in Dota increases her total dps by 45%

[Skyve]

Would like to see the math on crit, considering that - if the passive crits, it will still only do 50% of his attack damage (assuming 2x crit, not sure how high riftshards is though).