Balance Dump

[skeloperch]

Post #3000 in the best thread ever on these forums.

I know you're jelly.

I got 1,000 and 1,337, if I remember correctly.

[SomethingOdd]

Great, this is turning into Last one to post in this thread wins.
I wish the bronies didn't get me.

How would we nerf valk?

[man_guy]

How would we nerf valk?Remove / greatly reduce lingering clearvision from arrow'd target. Add small cast time to leap.

[`11411181]

Even better:
Valkyrie:
- Courageous Leap distance changed from 630/720/780/870 to 450/520/590/660
- Courageous Leap cooldown changed from 40/35/30/20 to 35/30/25/20
OR
- Javelin stun increments changed from 150 at all levels to 270->230->190->150

[skeloperch]

Even better:
Valkyrie:
- Courageous Leap distance changed from 630/720/780/870 to 450/520/590/660
- Courageous Leap cooldown changed from 40/35/30/20 to 35/30/25/20
OR
- Javelin stun increments changed from 150 at all levels to 270->230->190->150

How about just remove that completely unnecessary buff from Leap, and make Javelin's damage scale with distance?

[PzKw]

- Javelin stun increments changed from 150 at all levels to 270->230->190->150
4char

[`11411181]

It's not unnecessary, it's one of the key things introduced to mean that she would be a support ganker. If you're going to hate on the hero, at least hate on her for the reasons she's broken, not the side-effects.
As for Javelin's damage scaling? Well, if you want her to never be an actual ganker, but always be a carry - sure, remove that and the buff on the backend.

[skeloperch]

It's not unnecessary, it's one of the key things introduced to mean that she would be a support ganker. If you're going to hate on the hero, at least hate on her for the reasons she's broken, not the side-effects.
As for Javelin's damage scaling? Well, if you want her to never be an actual ganker, but always be a carry - sure, remove that and the buff on the backend.

How does making close range arrows not hit as hard as moderate range arrows prevent her from being an actual ganker? You just seem to be exaggerating at this point. I just prefer the damage to scale too, since that means that point blank Javelins aren't 360 damage. I didn't, and don't, intend for it to only hit 360 damage at the very end, but at least make it so that it only hits 360 at the point where it hits 5 seconds of stun. That only seems fair for a skill that was meant to have scaling damage in the first place.

And no, she is, and always ways meant to be, a jack of all trades. Removing the buff from leap makes more sense than any other nerf to leap, besides maybe adding a cast time and giving it a static 30 second cool down. She DOES NOT need to have that support component on her E. Valkyrie was never designed to be a support hero, and, thus, does not need skills that support her allies.

I see that our opinions on how to nerf Valkyrie go in opposite directions. I want to make her have to level up leap more, and you want to make her level up Javelin more (most Valkyrie's I see already go for either maxed Javelin or Call first). My problem is that she is too good with only one level in leap. I want her to have to sacrifice damage for safety.

[`11411181]

How does making close range arrows not hit as hard as moderate range arrows prevent her from being an actual ganker? You just seem to be exaggerating at this point. I just prefer the damage to scale too, since that means that point blank Javelins aren't 360 damage. I didn't, and don't, intend for it to only hit 360 damage at the very end, but at least make it so that it only hits 360 at the point where it hits 5 seconds of stun. That only seems fair for a skill that was meant to have scaling damage in the first place.
If a ganker cant kill people when they feel like it, then they're not really a ganker. Damage scaling according to range would make her absolutely trash at killing anyone close to her, aka any hero that she can't land a 5sec arrow on (and no, this doesn't happen enough to warrant that).


And no, she is, and always ways meant to be, a jack of all trades.
Wrong.


Removing the buff from leap makes more sense than any other nerf to leap, besides maybe adding a cast time and giving it a static 30 second cool down. She DOES NOT need to have that support component on her E. Valkyrie was never designed to be a support hero, and, thus, does not need skills that support her allies.
(From what I'm told by someone who knows better), she was designed to be a support ganker upon inception, before IceFrog gave her mega buffs to the distance of her leap and removed the damage scaling on distance from arrow. Even if we were to restore her back to that original vision of damage scaling per distance, she would never put out enough damage to be considered a useful ganker in HoN.
Conversely, the entire reason she can carry like she does is solely through being able to remove herself from arms length of any hero in the game upon a whim, introducing a ranged carry who helps herself be screened better than any other. Removing how extreme that is, you have a hero that suddenly isn't near-invincible like every other evasive ranged semi.


I see that our opinions on how to nerf Valkyrie go in opposite directions. I want to make her have to level up leap more, and you want to make her level up Javelin more (most Valkyrie's I see already go for either maxed Javelin or Call first). My problem is that she is too good with only one level in leap. I want her to have to sacrifice damage for safety.
All that arrow nerf does is remove her ability to score 4-5 second stuns off the back of ONE 2sec stun at level 1. Go and do the maths on how long you need that arrow to travel to do that, and make the connection as to why she's always in double-stun lanes with Magmus, or was one of the best trilane carries.

If you wanted Valkyrie to level leap more than arrow, then removing the buff on the backend pretty much does jack **** nothing to accomplish that.

[skeloperch]

If a ganker cant kill people when they feel like it, then they're not really a ganker. Damage scaling according to range would make her absolutely trash at killing anyone close to her, aka any hero that she can't land a 5sec arrow on (and no, this doesn't happen enough to warrant that).
Your definition of a ganker is skewed. Making the damage scale so she can't **** over everyone, even more, at close range does not automatically make her not a ganker, or even a bad one at that.



Wrong.
Even her original design concept was a Jack of All Trades, the likes of which had never been seen before. S2 intended for Myrmidon to be a carry ganker, and he became the ultimate support hero for a huge portion of HoN's history. Funny how **** like that works.



(From what I'm told by someone who knows better), she was designed to be a support ganker upon inception, before IceFrog gave her mega buffs to the distance of her leap and removed the damage scaling on distance from arrow. Even if we were to restore her back to that original vision of damage scaling per distance, she would never put out enough damage to be considered a useful ganker in HoN.
Conversely, the entire reason she can carry like she does is solely through being able to remove herself from arms length of any hero in the game upon a whim, introducing a ranged carry who helps herself be screened better than any other. Removing how extreme that is, you have a hero that suddenly isn't near-invincible like every other evasive ranged semi. It's like you completely forgot about the existence of her nuke that hits harder than Pyro's level one ulti when maxed. She'd still be an extremely useful ganker, seeing as she would be able to stun for a ridiculous amount of time, deal a ton of damage through her Q, and escape if she has to tower dive/gets turned around on.

The entire reason she can carry is because of her ability to keep you the **** away from her, her great ganking capabilities, and the steroid off of E. Being able to leap is fine, since it's easier to mess up than blinks of other gankers/carries, but having the steroid + MS on top of that is just ridiculous. Mind you, this is a 20 second cooldown escape mechanism. It's cooldown would actually be justifiable if the extra buff was removed.



All that arrow nerf does is remove her ability to score 4-5 second stuns off the back of ONE 2sec stun at level 1. Go and do the maths on how long you need that arrow to travel to do that, and make the connection as to why she's always in double-stun lanes with Magmus, or was one of the best trilane carries. You're implying she still can't score 4/5 second arrows with level one arrow. She can throw it through trees, have someone push/pull an enemy into the arrow, or a combination of both. Considering the stock of wards at the beginning of the game, that does next to nothing to affect her early game.


If you wanted Valkyrie to level leap more than arrow, then removing the buff on the backend pretty much does jack **** nothing to accomplish that.

The buff can make a bigger difference than the actual leap, especially since you can control where exactly you're going with extra precision.

[GoldenFrog04]

Add small cast time to leap.
yep
so players need to think and correctly time it

[Reldnahc]

How would we nerf valk?

Attack Range is now 128.

[Skyve]

Attack Range is now 128.

The idea was to nerf her, not break her spine, defile her corpse and dance on it.

[Gorb]

Couple of points, nothing major.

Even her original design concept was a Jack of All Trades, the likes of which had never been seen before.

It's like you completely forgot about the existence of her nuke that hits harder than Pyro's level one ulti when maxed.1. Source(s), please. I want to interrupt this fascinating "I know more than you contest" with "please provide verifiable evidence to back up my otherwise completely personal opinions".

2. An ability you have to get to a minimum of level 7 to max should be able to hit harder than an ability you can level at a minimum of level 6. No?

That comparison of yours is rather flawed and doesn't actually mean anything. At all.

(let's not get into the details of relevant mana pools, mana regeneration, other burst damage potential inherent on each hero, etc)

[SomethingOdd]

The idea was to nerf her, not break her spine, defile her corpse and dance on it.Words cannot comprehend the comedy value I got from this. Gorb, unless i'm mistaken, isn't it level 7, not 8?

[Gorb]

It is!

Fixed!

[Skyve]

2. An ability you have to get to a minimum of level 7 to max should be able to hit harder than an ability you can level at a minimum of level 6. No?

No. Or are you suggesting Pyromancer's Q and W should be buffed because if maxed they do less damage than his lvl1 ultimate? :)

I agree with your sentiment that the comparison means nothing though. Although I would still argue that the existence of the 150 bonus damage on Valkyries Call is questionable.

[Gorb]

"should be able to" != "should always in the case of every single hero", Skyve :)

[`11411181]

Well, this rapidly devolved into the same fallacies that the bads in the Fayde thread went down to, to argue for clearvision nerfs. Massive misappropriation of the hero's strengths to near-inconsequential things. Sick.

[the_guy117]

I'm just gonna say that you can potentially max Valk's early burst at level 8, although getting rank 1 leap and maxing burst at level 9 is much wiser.

Deadwood can max his early burst at level 7 and Pebbles can do so at level 8, while Devourer should max his at level 10 (rank 1 cadaver armor) while most other heroes max their early burst at 9.

(Early burst means the damage you deal before you hit level 11.)

Just something you should note in case you bring up burst numbers again.

[skeloperch]

I'm just gonna say that you can potentially max Valk's early burst at level 8, although getting rank 1 leap and maxing burst at level 9 is much wiser.

Deadwood can max his early burst at level 7 and Pebbles can do so at level 8, while Devourer should max his at level 10 (rank 1 cadaver armor) while most other heroes max their early burst at 9.



At level 7, going the classic W-E-Q-Q-Q-W-Q build, you've already got 450 + 180 of burst. That's a lot, considering she also has a huge stun, escape mechanism, and 600 range. A Pebbles of the same level deals more damage, but he has no escape mechanism, his stun is shorter, and he can't hit fleeing targets that outspeed him because he is melee (not saying Pebbles is balanced either. No, I think he's the most OP hero in game after Valkyrie). Most people go "OH WELL YOU'RE JUST LISTING THE POSITIVES", but really, there are no negatives besides slight mana problems. Valkyrie just doesn't have enough negatives to balance the positives.

(Early burst means the damage you deal before you hit level 11.)

Just something you should note in case you bring up burst numbers again.

[PzKw]

The irony of this conversation is that Anakha is right about the original design intent of PotM, but Skelo is actually naming the prefered change of PotM's original designer.

Also, just for the record, most of the perks on PotM that weren't in the original design intent were because of unintended features to do with how she was coded. Leap, for example, used to display the intended ranges in the tooltip - the longer ranges were (and still are not) present on every leap. Leap doesn't achieve the current stated ranges unless PotM issues a movement command in the same direction, which has to do with the measurement frames of reference in the original code - the ability is actually based off Windwalk, and the jumping PotM is basically just a visual, while the "real" PotM runs along the same path as the leap. Unless this has changed in the last few years that is...

Tever.

[GoldenFrog04]

Attack Range is now 128.
and she is ranged or melee then ? keeping her classified as ranged with 128 sound injustice
melee has better chance with :brutalizer: and can use :runedcleaver: and :abyssalskull:

[GoldenFrog04]

At level 7, going the classic W-E-Q-Q-Q-W-Q build, you've already got 450 + 180 of burst. That's a lot, considering she also has a huge stun, escape mechanism, and 600 range. A Pebbles of the same level deals more damage, but he has no escape mechanism, his stun is shorter, and he can't hit fleeing targets that outspeed him because he is melee (not saying Pebbles is balanced either. No, I think he's the most OP hero in game after Valkyrie). Most people go "OH WELL YOU'RE JUST LISTING THE POSITIVES", but really, there are no negatives besides slight mana problems. Valkyrie just doesn't have enough negatives to balance the positives.

(Early burst means the damage you deal before you hit level 11.)

Just something you should note in case you bring up burst numbers again.

can making her Int not Agi solve this ? most int heroes have a high damage burst and low Agi/lvl
making her int means she can't build her damage + attack spd + armor concurrently
yet she will become a good Int carry

[Lariatoooo]

I really don't wanna face a valk with hellflower & harkon's

[Ekamo]

At level 7, going the classic W-E-Q-Q-Q-W-Q build, you've already got 450 + 180 of burst. That's a lot, considering she also has a huge stun, escape mechanism, and 600 range. A Pebbles of the same level deals more damage, but he has no escape mechanism, his stun is shorter, and he can't hit fleeing targets that outspeed him because he is melee (not saying Pebbles is balanced either. No, I think he's the most OP hero in game after Valkyrie). Most people go "OH WELL YOU'RE JUST LISTING THE POSITIVES", but really, there are NO NEGATIVES besides slight mana problems. Valkyrie just doesn't have enough negatives to balance the positives.

(Early burst means the damage you deal before you hit level 11.)

Just something you should note in case you bring up burst numbers again.

Except for the insignificant detail of "only" being a single-target stun as well as highly unreliable unless there is a previous stun to follow up to. But let's just ignore that to make your argument sound better.

Anyways, proceed.

[GoldenFrog04]

I really don't wanna face a valk with hellflower & harkon's
Oh
I will uninstall :(

[XFlame]

I've been meaning to ask: does anyone have any experience playing with/against Berzerker, and how does he fare?

Oh and apparently I've been watching so little competitive games lately that I missed Moraxus becoming first pick/ban material.

[Reldnahc]

Berzerker seems strong in theory but I haven't gotten much use from him in practice. Kind of reminds me of Carey hammer storm

[SomethingOdd]

If Pebbs needs a nerf, how would he be nerfed?

[Skyve]

Well, what's the problem with him?

[PzKw]

Depends on which part of the hero you think has a problem, and which part is fine.

[Formless`]

Omg why is blitz so op, he need a nerf. MAX ms is just to much on a hero....

[Anastasius]

This guy...

[`11411181]

Dunno about him, but the two things I don't like about Pebbles is how easy it is to combo and that the stun is staggered into 2 seconds. The second point is inspired by the amount of times the stun has just missed me and then i walk 30 units forward and get stunned for half duration anyway. Also, Monarch's cleanse is useless against it, same as Deadwood's grasp.

[Hubaris]

Berzerker seems strong in theory but I haven't gotten much use from him in practice. Kind of reminds me of Carey hammer storm

He has decent power, but thats all he offers. With a Helm and Steams he can output around 150~ damage an auto attack at 7 (prenerf).

If the fight lasts longer than your Ults duration, you're screwed.

Overall hes fun and offers a decent steroid and a good counter to slow/stun based heroes. Just don't get EP on him ffs.

[Lethe]

54% win on Bramble in his first day.

Classic.

[Reldnahc]

54% win on Bramble in his first day. Classic. He feels right balance wise. Time will tell.

[skeloperch]

He has decent power, but thats all he offers. With a Helm and Steams he can output around 150~ damage an auto attack at 7 (prenerf).

If the fight lasts longer than your Ults duration, you're screwed.

Overall hes fun and offers a decent steroid and a good counter to slow/stun based heroes. Just don't get EP on him ffs.

I mostly agree, seeing as how he has a harder time getting to critical mass than any other carry in game, but critical-mass Berzerker is only really stoppable by a well placed Chronosphere, or an equally fed Magebane.

[Skyve]

I mostly agree, seeing as how he has a harder time getting to critical mass than any other carry in game, but critical-mass Berzerker is only really stoppable by a well placed Chronosphere, or an equally fed Magebane.

Or Tempests ultimate. Or Succubus. Or Pandamonium. Or Pollywog Priest. Or Electrician. Pebbles' stun might just work too.

Also: Why would S2 want to rework Balphagore? :/

[XFlame]

Also: Why would S2 want to rework Balphagore? :/

WAT? Source? Oh, I see. Hadn't opened HoN yet. I voted Blacksmith, because this dude's success relies just a little too much on luck.

[skeloperch]

I voted Sand Wraith since I'm not hipster enough to vote Balphagore (even though he deserves a remake the most). I... I just can't deal with a balance problem with Sand Wraith. Every time I think about him, I end up going to bed shortly after. It's like reverse therapy.

[Reldnahc]

Why the hell would Balphagore deserve a remake?

[skeloperch]

Why the hell would Balphagore deserve a remake?

He's the biggest balance mess there is. If he is anywhere near balanced, he either rapes towers or team fights, and if he is underpowered, he is one of the most worthless heroes in game. It's the Sand Wraith predicament, but instead of a ticking timebomb, the bomb is exploding from the get-go.

[Skyve]

Oh, maybe it's because of the whole "Silence is anti-synergetic with his ultimate" thing that people like to go on about...


He's the biggest balance mess there is. If he is anywhere near balanced, he either rapes towers or team fights, and if he is underpowered, he is one of the most worthless heroes in game. It's the Sand Wraith predicament, but instead of a ticking timebomb, the bomb is exploding from the get-go.

And why is that?

[skeloperch]

Oh, maybe it's because of the whole "Silence is anti-synergetic with his ultimate" thing that people like to go on about...



And why is that?

I do believe silence is synergistic, and his best non-ultimate skill, but I just think that he has the potential to ruin everyone's game if he gets close enough to 'balanced'. I mean, the monster can push towers down 3 minutes in. Plus, S2 juiced all of the fun out of him by nerfing his ulti too much :(

[Reldnahc]

54% win on Bramble in his first day.

Classic.

Oh yeah, Soul Reaper is third highest win rate. I get you're trying to associate that his unusually high win % means he'll be a mess like Tremble, but I really like the hero. I feel like he's unique, well designed and interesting.

[SirVH]

55,7% on second day. Is that a record already?

[PzKw]

Err. So what's wrong with Balph again? Because Tree, Tempest and WB do pretty much what you just said... Ophelia sort of does too...


Balph is one of the better designs S2 has had. He's not without flaws, but he's mostly sound...

[Skyve]

I do believe silence is synergistic, and his best non-ultimate skill, but I just think that he has the potential to ruin everyone's game if he gets close enough to 'balanced'. I mean, the monster can push towers down 3 minutes in. Plus, S2 juiced all of the fun out of him by nerfing his ulti too much :(

From what I have seen the reality of things is more that people don't like to play against pushers, so they call them OP, problematic, or w/e. Doesn't mean we need to remove every pusher as soon as they get picked in competitive games.

Also I really dislike the whole "minions can't attack unless their master is nearby" thing we have now :/

[Gorb]

I prefer it that way, actually. Yes, it removes the aspect of pushing two places at once (which is an option, but also intrinsically unfair if you think about it, especially with regards to the pushing power of minion units), but yeah. What my part in brackets said.

[Skyve]

which is an option, but also intrinsically unfair if you think about it

Why is it unfair?

[LordTroll]

Why is it unfair?

Maybe because it forces the team being pushed to dedicate 1 hero to kill the far too strong minions that will rape your towers and rax in just a few casts, alone, if left unchecked?

It becomes 4vs5 and instantly creates a tactical advantage. Balphagore hardly needs minions to do well in teamfights.

This way, if you want a strong secondary push, you have to dedicate 1 hero to it, which is much more acceptable.

[Reldnahc]

Why is it unfair?

Because it allows a hero to push without danger to himself and the frequency in which it can be applied(unlike Pollywog Wards) makes it too strong. By attaching a leash range, the hero is actually putting himself in danger rather than summon minions and run.

[Gorb]

/me tips hat to LordTroll and Reldnahc

[Skyve]

Because it allows a hero to push without danger to himself and the frequency in which it can be applied(unlike Pollywog Wards) makes it too strong. By attaching a leash range, the hero is actually putting himself in danger rather than summon minions and run.

And why is that a good thing? If you can constantly push with less danger to yourself you will also likely be forcing teamfights earlier (since at some point the enemy will want to defend, being able to push more frequently also puts that point to an earlier stage of the game).

[Reldnahc]

And why is that a good thing? If you can constantly push with less danger to yourself you will also likely be forcing teamfights earlier (since at some point the enemy will want to defend, being able to push more frequently also puts that point to an earlier stage of the game).

It does just the opposite actually. It isn't that the hero is unable to push, it is the fact that the hero is able to push without danger to himself. Teamfights don't happen when a hero can push without his presence. But if that Balphagore or Keeper has to stay near the tower in order to push, it actually starts more teamfights or opportunities to gank him or his team.

[LordTroll]

It does just the opposite actually. It isn't that the hero is unable to push, it is the fact that the hero is able to push without danger to himself. Teamfights don't happen when a hero can push without his presence. But if that Balphagore or Keeper has to stay near the tower in order to push, it actually starts more teamfights or opportunities to gank him or his team.

Pretty much this happens, OR unbalanced team fights are started. Feels pretty sloppy and easy, considering how effective the minions are.

[PzKw]

Eh?

Asymmetrical balance etc....

[PzKw]

What I mean is that by picking a split push lineup, you are forgoing a gank lineup or clash lineup which are/should both viable but generate a different set of defeat mechanisms...

[`11411181]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?424667-HONCAST-WANTS-YOU-to-be-the-next-lead-co-caster!&p=15125186#post15125186

So who's gonna make HoNcast less cringeworthy by telling the general public that 40min Shieldbreakers are bad?

[SomethingOdd]

If a 14 year old 1250 baddie knows that, who wouldn't?

[PzKw]

On contract. For another few years. Any other takers?

[Antimodus]

bramble makes my :poll: a sad :pand:. His ult rapes mine so bad :(

[SomethingOdd]

He feels like a decent accursed.

[Hsssh]

If a 14 year old 1250 baddie knows that, who wouldn't?

Breakycpk.

[SomethingOdd]

Oh, I'm also autistic.
Breaky must be a total (Words that would get me banned) then

[LordTroll]

What I mean is that by picking a split push lineup, you are forgoing a gank lineup or clash lineup which are/should both viable but generate a different set of defeat mechanisms...

Too bad balphagore, tempest, keeper, etc can gank and teamfight EXTREMELY well, then.

[Hsssh]

Well his point is that idea of split pushing is not broken as a concept. Fact that Tempest in theory can split push, port to another tower and rape team fight is entirely another problem.

[Reldnahc]

Public speaking isn't my forte.

[`11411181]

If a 14 year old 1250 baddie knows that, who wouldn't?

Haven't watched much competitive HoN over the past few months, I see.

[skeloperch]

Haven't watched much competitive HoN over the past few months, I see.

Wait, who ACTUALLY watches competitive HoN? Like, I'd rather be playing against a Brawl tourneyfag at that point. I thought people just took statistics off of it to see who competitors are having their periods about.

[Cyber_Kun]

skeloperch proving to be clueless.

[skeloperch]

skeloperch proving to be clueless.

My point being that the competitive matches stagnated beyond belief about a year ago, making even Brawl competitive matches look diverse.

[SomethingOdd]

Skeloperch at least we have bal-
F*ck

[`11411181]

Wait, who ACTUALLY watches competitive HoN? Like, I'd rather be playing against a Brawl tourneyfag at that point. I thought people just took statistics off of it to see who competitors are having their periods about.


My point being that the competitive matches stagnated beyond belief about a year ago, making even Brawl competitive matches look diverse.

What's that word for when you comment on something you have literally no clue about?

[LoLPlaya_]

What do you nice Balance people think, is Lord Salphoris balanced?

[XFlame]

Yes.

[PzKw]

Schizophrenic, awkward design. Unsure about balance.

[`11411181]

I find him severely meh. His superbly strong laning means that concessions have to be made in order to make the hero function fairly, and these concessions are in the form of detracting significantly in his ability to take his strong laning and do something productive with it to win the game.
He's a meh counter to "heals+tank" lineups (because stuns can be used to extend EHP just as effectively as heals can) and outside of that, the hero is just a worse version of the same type of heroes who can do the same **** but better.

[LoLPlaya_]

I do believe he is balanced in a very awkward way. He is probably the best 1v1-er, but he is pretty useless when it comes to 5v5 situations. Even if you are 3-0 with him in 10 minutes, chances are high you won't be able to carry your team to victory, even with the awesome farm you got.

[Skyve]

Schizophrenic, awkward design. Unsure about balance.

I still find that the hero should be either focusing more on either his Q and R 'combos or his W and E combos to achieve something worthwhile in either case. Basically I'd like him to be split into two different heroes.

[Ekamo]

Taken from TB thread:


I feel there are some common misconceptions that constantly leads to the same, straight-forward suggestions about how to "fix" Thunderbringer, and this applies to any other hero as well. You know who you are people, and I please ask you, refrain from those suggestions since if they are not deleted they will most likely be ignored by every single person reading it.

The most common, but nevertheless faulty misconception, is that TB needs a higher range in order to become balanced. I do not think anyone would argue that if you put enough numbers into this category, he will sooner or later reach a status where he is considered "balanced". Then why has this not been done?
When trying to balance a hero, one must take into consideration many factors. Every single stat about a hero matters, and there are numerous ways to tweak those. There are countless ways to make a hero reach the status of "balanced" where one of the most obvious ones would be to simply incrementally increase the damage done on a certain skill (let's say, Thunderbringer's Lightning Bolt) until the hero is considered "balanced".

This way of balancing ignores a very important aspect though.
Is the simplest and most straight-forward way the optimal way to achieve balance?

I am not saying that such is never the case. I am simply trying to emphasize the fact that it is more often not than the other way around.

Why you might ask. Why not just take the most obvious route to balance, and be done with it?
The fallacy in that logic is that it completely ignores the fact that balance and design are two very intertwined concepts. The design on a skill is not limited to the way the skill works, it is also directly tied to the numbers on the skill, and thus balance. One might say that, for example, the high range on Pharaoh's ultimate is simply a balance aspect of the hero, but I would argue that it is even more so a choice based off a very specific goal in design to add a certain flavor of the hero, with the numbers of it later balanced around that conscious design-decision.

Here is when Thunderbringer comes into the picture. It should be made very clear that his low attack range is a conscious design-decision, and not simply a remnant from the older Dota engine. When Thunderbringer was created, it was with very specific design goals in mind, which even though I have no inside information on, can make decently intelligent guesses about:
He was designed to be a high damage hero-nuker, who from a pretty long range could completely obliterate specific heroes or wreck teamfights. He was supposed to be a strong laner with his strong last-hitting ability, but was given extremely low range and low movement speed to make up for that. In lane, he thus has some pretty major counters (high-hp heroes with strong solo-killing capabilities), because he is so reliant on a static amount of damage which does not effect them as much as well as being very easy to kill when being just slightly out of position. He is also limited by the fact that he can rarely completely seize a lane unless he gains an early advantage, due to his innate tendency to push the lane up to the enemy's tower (which conversely can benefit him as well if one capitalizes this to gain a strong rune-control). His low movement speed, natural squishyness and lack of true disables throughout the entire game is indeed intended, to work as a buffer to allow the possibility of giving the hero a ridiculous skill-set, namely his ultimate. The hero is given glaring weaknesses to make up for his extreme strengths, which in Thunderbringer's case is to be able to from a long range deal high amounts of burst damage on a pretty consistent basis. This in due turn creates something very unique about him, something that further increases strategic versatility and diversity in the game.

Given this somewhat simplified analysis, I pose this question to all of you:
When trying to balance a hero, such as Thunderbringer, should we go with the simple solution of buffing the heroes weaknesses, and in the process taking away a very unique aspect of the hero (and thus the game as a whole), or should we try to find an alternative solution that makes the hero retain its unique flavor while nearing this status which we commonly refer to as "balanced".

Considering this, I find it very evident that our goal in this forum is to discuss our ways to these optimal solutions, by critically probing the hero's strengths and weaknesses, and by somewhat reaching a consensus on different approaches to how the hero can get closer to a balanced state. On the opposite side of the spectrum, I assert as well that our goal is not to mindlessly spit out suggestions (such as in this case, increase Thunderbringer's attack range), which might slightly improve the game's balance, but that in the long run might have unforeseen consequences and maybe even be detrimental by decreasing the diversity in design in the game.

Good design is often imperative in order for a hero, and subsequently the game, to be appreciated, both from a player and spectator perspective. When balancing a game, one shouldn't be satisfied with a solution that works; one should instead strive to find an optimal solution (implying there is such a thing) that will satisfy casual and competitive players and spectators alike. I do recognize the fact that some concessions can/should be made one way or the other when a situation truly calls for it, such as nerfing/buffing the pub-dominance or competitive dominance of certain heroes or vice verse for the general betterment of the game, but this should by no means be the norm.

It is our job to take this into account in our discussions, and not solely focus on the easiest, most conspicuous way to balance a hero. It is our job to maintain a high standard in our discussions, and this can only be achieved by a joint effort to try to avoid outright suggestions like the plague. Because if you cannot prove that your idea is the optimal way to balance said hero, why should we others bother to even consider it? It is not our job to find your line of thought when only given the end-result; on the contrary it is your job to explain it to leave room for as little ambiguity as possible.



The goal of this sub-forum is to have intelligent discussion on the interaction of heroes, items and game-play related issues, and to ultimately probe and provide insight on overall balance.

With this in mind, please continue, and stay focused on what this forum actually is meant to do, to provide intelligent input on this game's balance.

[Reldnahc]

That's right, listen to Ekamo. Give TB 600 range.

[`11411181]

Ekamo smashing out some truth.

[changlingbob]

Can we start infracting people who do nothing but post a shitty suggestion yet?

[XFlame]

Well damn, that post is truth.

Can we start infracting people who do nothing but post a shitty suggestion yet?
Doesn't this fall under the 'make constructive posts' rule?

[Skyve]

Well, then whip dem balance mods into shape :P

Also last thing I read on the topic was that Vahn said to infract people that keep making baseless suggestions.

[Hubaris]

I suggest that infractions get nerfed down to one per person.

It would address all of the issues.

:scou:

[Ekamo]

Infraction Hammer: Activated

[XFlame]

That sounds like a move of a new hero.

OT: I have finally played a game with Blitz, and I can't understand why, for the love of all that is holy, his ult is so retardedly bad at level 1 and 2. 150/120 second cd on a 225/450 nuke with a tiny AoE? Seriously, what the hell?

[Hubaris]

Because S2 makes OP heroes with Ultimates worse than Hammer Stuns in most instances. His cast time on his E is atrocious too, making it almost unusable in a clutch situation.

But yea, his Ultimate is on par with Tempest... Oh wait.

[skeloperch]

I think everyone has realized that his ultimate has a way longer cooldown than would ever be necessary. Considering how little it does for how high it's cooldown is, I'd expect it to replace every item in their inventory with bound eyes or something.

[`11411181]

Blitz is being addressed.

As for being on par with Tempest ultimate, what exactly in the game is on par with Tempest's ultimate? It's one in a list of skills that would instantly "break" any hero it's put on (see: Madman's Stalk)

[PzKw]

I disagree. Tempest's ultimate is utterly overrated in my opinion. If you put Eidelons on any hero though...

[Hubaris]

Blitz is being addressed.

As for being on par with Tempest ultimate, what exactly in the game is on par with Tempest's ultimate? It's one in a list of skills that would instantly "break" any hero it's put on (see: Madman's Stalk)

Its not, but the fact that the CD at level one is almost identical was the point of the comment. Its hard to create sarcasm with English not being my first language, apologies.

[SirVH]

Ekamo, we do need a Bramble speculation thread!

[Gorb]

Because S2 makes OP heroes with Ultimates worse than Hammer Stuns in most instances. His cast time on his E is atrocious too, making it almost unusable in a clutch situation.

But yea, his Ultimate is on par with Tempest... Oh wait.I do not understand how a hero with a lacklustre/poorly-performing ultimate could be considered "OP" without the first three skills rendering the ultimate useless.

I am not even getting on the "OP heroes" part precisely, nor the "ultimates worse than Hammer('s) stun(s)", merely the combination of the two.

EDIT: apparently I completely misunderstood the sarcasm.

Also holy hell:

public boolean respectInc(String name) {

Character forumite = findName(name);
forumite.setRespect(forumite.getRespect() + 10);
}

Applying for Ekamo, for that TB post. Big plays.

[Hubaris]

I think I should stay away from sarcasm in the near future, it apparently causes much problems online.

[Gorb]

Nah, I read it horribly wrong. I usually pick up on it, British humour, etc.

[Reldnahc]

Gorb you have an excellent sarcasm detector.

[skeloperch]

So, is Andro getting nerfed or buffed next patch? I've been too busy playing everyone besides Andro to know how she fares balance wise.

[`11411181]

Its not, but the fact that the CD at level one is almost identical was the point of the comment. Its hard to create sarcasm with English not being my first language, apologies.

I actually just meant it as a general question, not as a pointed response to you.

[SomethingOdd]

I think I should stay away from sarcasm in the near future, it apparently causes much problems online.

It does.

[SomethingOdd]

Big balance patch coming up, prepare your rants.

[`11411181]

Expectations low as always.

[SomethingOdd]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?425498-HoN-Community-Patch-Discussion&p=15130252#post15130252
*chuckles*, Silly GD, game isn't balanced for you.

[Hsssh]

**** patch is coming this Friday, whats new?

[XFlame]

So I'm reading this massive list, and all I can think is: ok. 90% are visibilty buffs, nothing more.

[SomethingOdd]

So I'm reading this massive list, and all I can think is: ok. 90% are visibilty buffs, nothing more.

And Icon gets a NERF

[Reldnahc]

And Icon gets a NERF

I'm sure they have an agenda for Icon. It wasn't used anyways and was mainly there to nerf Ring of Sorcery so it was more of a by product no one cared about. Icon will probably get changed on its own later with Sacrificial Stone.

[Hsssh]

Yeah, it was hinted multiple times that sac stone and icon will get reworks/changes so it is not very surprising that it was ignored.

[XFlame]

Also no Blood Hunter buff. I still feel like nobody knows what to do with the hero, not even DogKaiser (and I have immense respect for him).

[SirVH]

The patch address some really needed aspects, like the Valk and Kraken nerfs. And some are just not enough, like Hellflower. IMO the biggest problem with Hellflower is the perplex, it should be removed.

I still wanna see a nerf on Plague's speed, scaling damage on devourer's hook and the removal of disjoint on Magmus skills. Also, reworks for MK and Rampage.

[`11411181]

re: plague speed, his main complaint was that he was too fast in lane with base movement speed and a 4sec slow (not after), so the scaling duration makes sense in that respect.

[man_guy]

What a joke of a patch. Really +/-.05 on gains has no significance whatsoever. 5 decent changes mixed in with 30 total BS ones.

[SirVH]

I forgot to mention another thing: Genjuro. That item should be the most stupid and broken thing I ever see. I don't even think it can be fixed, just remove this from the game, it just beneficts heroes that are already in need of nerfs.

[Reldnahc]

I forgot to mention another thing: Genjuro. That item should be the most stupid and broken thing I ever see. I don't even think it can be fixed, just remove this from the game, it just beneficts heroes that are already in need of nerfs.

Umm, explain?

[SirVH]

On the same item you get too much damage, a slow, attack speed, a lot of mobility, double crit, double invisibility, + the bonus agility (armor etc). It's way too much.

[SomethingOdd]

It's 6 3 0 0 Gold, the most expensive item in the game. and it doesn't have a great buildup either.

[SirVH]

For the beneficts it gives it should cost like 10k >_>

[SomethingOdd]

Shroud has a 18 second cd, and lasts for 9 seconds, so half the time you can be invis.
Genjuro has a 14 second cd, BUT the cd doesn't do down when invis, so 23 for 9.
With two charges, it's 46 for 18
It's an upgrade for shroud.
For an extra 3000 gold, it doesn't sound too great.

[SomethingOdd]

Oh another 20 attack speed and 5 dmage.

[Skyve]

I wonder if Gladiator might be used more if his Showdown had some additional effect but maxed out at 2 seconds duration (so you can max the skill without problems).

[SomethingOdd]

Add a sub-spell that allows him to change the length, bind it to his E, perfect fit. (if it's too imba, remove IHNP)

[Skyve]

The idea was more to add something that gets him picked on occasion, not just change the 1/2/3/4 seconds duration of his skill :)

[SomethingOdd]

Shadowblade buff should help him carry, up to 127 in a stat is huge.

[Brannock]

30 heroes advertised to be patched, 22 get real changes beyond 0.05 stat gain cleanup. 73%. Eh, good job marketing.

Here are my opinions on patch changes because we don't have a patch reception thread yet.

Of those 22:

Buffs:
-Blacksmith: now one of the best level 1 stunners in the game with very efficient Fireball, QoL change with Frenzy.
-Blitz: Ult CD change sorely needed.
-Chronos: Significantly higher damage on Curse gives him a lot stronger early game presence, which is a huge buff for a hard carry. I believe they had a stronger version of this buff tested in SBT and it made him the best hero in the game.
-Defiler: Seriously, try out this change, it makes a very noticeable difference in her damage output later on, and makes her a great candidate to get early levels.
-Hellbringer: Revert to an old nerf that's become no longer relevant in today's game.
-Rhapsody: Meh. Slightly more casts early game.
-Scout: Kraken style Disarm helps his lasthitting slightly and gives him more reliability and predictability in dueling carries. Knowing for a fact that whoever you hit will be disarmed for two seconds indirectly helps his survivability. Vision of target on ult is also a change that shouldn't be overlooked.
-Shadowblade: Meh. Only relevant when you're ulting heroes with more than 100 in a stat. It's a buff to his hard carrying, where he was already really really good at hard carrying.
-Succubus: 305 to 310 moves her from same MS with a lot of solo heroes to slightly faster than them. Combined with a strong autoattack, self-healing, and buffed damage on Heartache makes her a bit more threatening in lane before level 6.

Nerfs:
-Bramble: This is more of a bugfix really.
-Buckley: Slight hit to his early game.
-Demented Shaman: Early cape was ridiculously good and made him one of the very best support picks in the game. He's still great but can't save someone four times a minute anymore with a single point.
-Glacius: There were a lot of 4/4/0/1 builds going around in competitive play because the mana cost buff to his ult and the ult reliability change made pure offensive Glacius really good. Mana cost nerf doesn't change his damage but will help encourage 1/1/4 builds to be seen along with 4/4/0.
-Jeraziah: Stupid ****ing magic immunity.
-Kinesis: Early nerf to on-hit slow encourages him to be put in a solo lane and pushes him away from dual lanes. Nerf to Int gain also makes levels more valuable for him. Stasis Smash change is a huge usability buff and should help encourage builds other than 1/4/4.
-Kraken: No longer a Shrunken Head counter!
-Magmus: Meh. More of a consistency-in-scaling change.
-Ophelia: "Buy Nullfire Blade, it's really good."
-Pebbles: Attack Speed items no longer nearly as effective on Pebbles himself - pushing him towards picking up aura items to benefit his team and less towards shifting into an one-man carry who can do it all. This nerf will have no real impact on Pebbles if you only played him as a burst damage ganker, only to the people who were transitioning into carry mode lategame (especially with his large Str gain and his debuff reduction).
-Plague Rider: Big hit to level 1/2 Contagion slow duration should make it less of a death sentence to be blasted by a Plague when you're out of position.
-Tempest: The bigger change here is the damage on his minions, which will affect his jungling a bit and his pushing power a bit. The nerfs to ult are mostly removing its huge secondary benefits that most people didn't even know existed.
-Valkyrie: Gotta work harder for that level 1 gank with the stun-arrow setup.

No real opinions on mana ring / hellflower changes. Necessary nerfs, really.

Bound Eye changes are great, stops courier ****ery and makes the item a lot less "safe" to use. Indirect buff to invis heroes!

[KeY533]

The idea was more to add something that gets him picked on occasion, not just change the 1/2/3/4 seconds duration of his skill :)

I think it would be nice if Showdown deals minor damage 1 would be enough just because some guys with fast reactions doesn't pk out before hitting the stun. But I think it's nice to have 4 seconds duration with some practice you will nearly allways hit your Pitfall anyways.. But first of all, Showdown gives huge vision on use which many people seem to forget/ignore okay it's not allways usefull but sometimes it can be very nice against someone who wants to juke and it helps him juking aswell, but I never understood why it has 30 seconds CD it's just way to much. The Gladiators manapool is so low it wouldn't be broken if it has the same Cd as his Pitfall atleast i think so. And maybe Showdown should give him truevision on the target or it could maybe slow or something. But in my Opinion, it would be much more beneficial if his Flagellation had lower Cd in early levels.

[LordTroll]

30 heroes advertised to be patched, 22 get real changes beyond 0.05 stat gain cleanup. 73%. Eh, good job marketing.

Nerfs:
-Bramble: This is more of a bugfix really.
-Buckley: Slight hit to his early game.
-Demented Shaman: Early cape was ridiculously good and made him one of the very best support picks in the game. He's still great but can't save someone four times a minute anymore with a single point.
-Glacius: There were a lot of 4/4/0/1 builds going around in competitive play because the mana cost buff to his ult and the ult reliability change made pure offensive Glacius really good. Mana cost nerf doesn't change his damage but will help encourage 1/1/4 builds to be seen along with 4/4/0.
-Jeraziah: Stupid ****ing magic immunity.
-Kinesis: Early nerf to on-hit slow encourages him to be put in a solo lane and pushes him away from dual lanes. Nerf to Int gain also makes levels more valuable for him. Stasis Smash change is a huge usability buff and should help encourage builds other than 1/4/4.
-Kraken: No longer a Shrunken Head counter!
-Magmus: Meh. More of a consistency-in-scaling change.
-Ophelia: "Buy Nullfire Blade, it's really good."
-Pebbles: Attack Speed items no longer nearly as effective on Pebbles himself - pushing him towards picking up aura items to benefit his team and less towards shifting into an one-man carry who can do it all. This nerf will have no real impact on Pebbles if you only played him as a burst damage ganker, only to the people who were transitioning into carry mode lategame (especially with his large Str gain and his debuff reduction).
-Plague Rider: Big hit to level 1/2 Contagion slow duration should make it less of a death sentence to be blasted by a Plague when you're out of position.
-Tempest: The bigger change here is the damage on his minions, which will affect his jungling a bit and his pushing power a bit. The nerfs to ult are mostly removing its huge secondary benefits that most people didn't even know existed.
-Valkyrie: Gotta work harder for that level 1 gank with the stun-arrow setup.

No real opinions on mana ring / hellflower changes. Necessary nerfs, really.

Bound Eye changes are great, stops courier ****ery and makes the item a lot less "safe" to use. Indirect buff to invis heroes!

Really good analysis on the nerfs mostly, I agree with pretty much everything. I quite liked them.

[Ekamo]

You are missing out on all the FUN (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?425608-2-6-4-Patch-Discussion&p=15132274&viewfull=1#post15132274) guys :D

[SomethingOdd]

I knew scout didn't get nerfed, in fact it seemed like a buff.

[Hubaris]

What did I just read?

jackiechan.jpg

:scou:

[SomethingOdd]

I suggest we pull out of the webssite, and make our own forums, safe from GB whenever a hero they like gets nerfed.

[skeloperch]

I suggest we pull out of the webssite, and make our own forums, safe from GB whenever a hero they like gets nerfed.
I can start a general on /vg/ if someone would bump it every hour or two.

[Ekamo]

I suggest we pull out of the webssite, and make our own forums, safe from GB whenever a hero they like gets nerfed.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?358960-Balance-IRC-Channel

Where do you think all the laughing at the rage-storm is mainly going on? ^^

[XFlame]

Or you could just not read Gen Disc at all, like any sane person would.

[ajk]

What the **** is wrong with mk!!!!!

[Alten]

I knew scout didn't get nerfed, in fact it seemed like a buff.

It was a buff. His laning ability has been drastically improved, and the effect on his overall dps is negligible. The synergy with flurry is obvious, and he can now reliably disarm a hero for a significant amount of time. The guaranteed crit also allows for some interesting things like a shroud or a genjuro, though I really doubt it's actually now viable to acquire them on scout.

[skeloperch]

It was a buff. His laning ability has been drastically improved, and the effect on his overall dps is negligible. The synergy with flurry is obvious, and he can now reliably disarm a hero for a significant amount of time. The guaranteed crit also allows for some interesting things like a shroud or a genjuro, though I really doubt it's actually now viable to acquire them on scout.

Shroud should probably be picked up after Runed Cleaver on Scout. Critting for about 700/800 and then having Flurry to catch right back up is pretty strong.

[Skyve]

Why did I only notice now that there was no Riftwalker Speculation thread?

[Hubaris]

Because the hero hasn't caused too much of a problem as I've seen so far.

Fairly balanced and viable with certain setups... IMO of course.

[`11411181]

The hero is a diluted fusion of Dark Seer and Chaos Knight mechanics, diluted because there is random tacked-on damage numbers on every skill.

[Hubaris]

Naw we all know that Blitz is Dark Seer. The random damage is really only tacked on on the vacuum, but in her defense its delayed and doesn't have the AoE of Dark Seer's, not even close.

[w3wStarBoy]

Dark seer wat??
Ds is a tank and melee hero, half nuke

Blitz is a half-range hero, soft, heavy nuke (but still not get enough damage)

And why S2 still dont make 3rd skill Revenant like invi rune?, ( can use bottle attack in fade time, can change steam boot,turn on/off aura etc)

[SomethingOdd]

Here's a question:Should we have access to the changes being tested in SBT?

[Reldnahc]

Here's a question:Should we have access to the changes being tested in SBT?

Kills marketing and leaks everywhere. Only suggestion is to apply yourself or something.

[SomethingOdd]

I'm 1250 mmr.

[Hsssh]

I remember back in the day it was open to everyone but majority of people just watched at what was going on(SBT patch notes, forum threads) to satisfy their curiosity instead of actually trying to help with testing so it was made private. Now if you want to satisfy your curiosity you have to help at least a little.

[Hubaris]

Dark seer wat??
Ds is a tank and melee hero, half nuke

Blitz is a half-range hero, soft, heavy nuke (but still not get enough damage)

And why S2 still dont make 3rd skill Revenant like invi rune?, ( can use bottle attack in fade time, can change steam boot,turn on/off aura etc)

I was being facetious. :scou:

[XFlame]

Ravenor seems interesting enough. Pretty basic and seems like he's supposed to be played fairly aggressively. That being said, his shield is a genuine Charged Hammer effect ripoff.

[Skyve]

Well, he's certainly better than the early leak was (basically all that was missing on that was 600 range to be another silhouette). He still doesn't really seem to have any kind of real "niche", other than maybe being good against stacked armor, but we have Harkon's Blade anyways :/

[Hsssh]

Wonder how he'll fare against magic vestments.

[skeloperch]

Seems like he'll do fairly well considering how much damage he was doing (assuming that is without vestments). I'm interested in the mechanics behind his W, though.

[Skyve]

Just wanted to say clan IaF #1, defeating angrytestie in team matchmaking and even getting an annihilation during all of that shizzle :D

Which also might have made him quite angry. Especially that one unknown blacksmith that protected most of the runes.

And I still managed to feed.

[skeloperch]

Just wanted to say clan IaF #1, defeating angrytestie in team matchmaking and even getting an annihilation during all of that shizzle :D

Which also might have made him quite angry. Especially that one unknown blacksmith that protected most of the runes.

And I still managed to feed.

Do you know his name? It might've been me or one of my friends that trained at the Blacksmith dojo and mastered him and his beardy ways.

[Skyve]

Well, the match ID is 91802860, so find out for yourself :)

[Benny0]

So am I alone in thinking shrunken head is fundamentally flawed, in a sense? The stun/silence/disable immunity is utterly necessary for carries to function in this game, but sometimes I feel like the whole "absolutely no magic damage taken" aspect is a bit too much. Void Talisman at least has a downside to activating it, but of course it's much cheaper and whatnot.

I dunno, I think the sheer damage reduction is just kind of silly against some team comps.

[Skyve]

I dunno, I think the sheer damage reduction is just kind of silly against some team comps.

But then you also have to question whether those teams would be OP without the existence of Shrunken Head (or Vindicator :P) to counter them.

[`11411181]

So am I alone in thinking shrunken head is fundamentally flawed, in a sense? The stun/silence/disable immunity is utterly necessary for carries to function in this game, but sometimes I feel like the whole "absolutely no magic damage taken" aspect is a bit too much. Void Talisman at least has a downside to activating it, but of course it's much cheaper and whatnot.

I dunno, I think the sheer damage reduction is just kind of silly against some team comps.

Necessary evil. In order to have spells at a power level where they can generate action early on to prevent stagnation of a game, yet not just mindlessly take over a game - you need an accessible counter that isn't available minute 0 to everyone.

[Fairy_]

[PORK] BEAT ANGRYTESTIE after sending trashdump teal to feed testie 6 times at mid

91487546

MUST WATCH

RARE

INSPIRATIONAL

thank you based god

[skeloperch]

Necessary evil. In order to have spells at a power level where they can generate action early on to prevent stagnation of a game, yet not just mindlessly take over a game - you need an accessible counter that isn't available minute 0 to everyone.

My only complaint is the build up. I would rather replace the +strength component with Platemail, and then make it increase armor instead of flat strength. Of course, the recipe would have to be cheaper, but it's a win-win no matter what.

[Alten]

Seems like he'll do fairly well considering how much damage he was doing (assuming that is without vestments). I'm interested in the mechanics behind his W, though.

SBT players are good enough that I imagine they had mystic vestments for a fair number of scenes on the spotlight (just conjecture, of course; mv are, of course, not always critical). So his damage does, indeed, seem fairly high. He seems to be in the style of salf and ra but with more significant carrying elements. Harkon's seems core on him, assuming that it will proc to his ultimate and give him the full effects from a single attack.

[Alten]

Necessary evil. In order to have spells at a power level where they can generate action early on to prevent stagnation of a game, yet not just mindlessly take over a game - you need an accessible counter that isn't available minute 0 to everyone.

I think it would be worthwhile to make SH reduce some armor in the same fashion VT reduces magic armor. As it stands, a carry that has a SH will likely also have armor in significant amounts; a 20+ armor sil/fa/valk with a SH and null, for instance, can expect to rarely if ever die while shrunken is active (though with sil and valk, this is really already an expectation prior to such items). If SH had such a downside, carries would have less virtual invulnerability (discounting certain physical stuns, of course) while SH is active. This is conjecture, though; it does remain to be seen whether a carry having virtual invulnerability is a critical element to the game, and whether it thus should stay in effect. Physical damage is also prevalent enough, and has been for such a long time, that the concept of virtual invulnerability may be a fallacy.

[Reldnahc]

VT and SH are apples and oranges and trying to make SH more like VT will cause more problems than it will fix.

[`11411181]

My only complaint is the build up. I would rather replace the +strength component with Platemail, and then make it increase armor instead of flat strength. Of course, the recipe would have to be cheaper, but it's a win-win no matter what.
To what end?


I think it would be worthwhile to make SH reduce some armor in the same fashion VT reduces magic armor. As it stands, a carry that has a SH will likely also have armor in significant amounts; a 20+ armor sil/fa/valk with a SH and null, for instance, can expect to rarely if ever die while shrunken is active (though with sil and valk, this is really already an expectation prior to such items). If SH had such a downside, carries would have less virtual invulnerability (discounting certain physical stuns, of course) while SH is active. This is conjecture, though; it does remain to be seen whether a carry having virtual invulnerability is a critical element to the game, and whether it thus should stay in effect. Physical damage is also prevalent enough, and has been for such a long time, that the concept of virtual invulnerability may be a fallacy.
It's meant to be a means for carries and the like to end games. That virtual invulnerability (a.k.a. the window of opportunity) is how carries as a whole can force no-win situations when at a farm and level advantage.

[Brannock]

My only complaint is the build up. I would rather replace the +strength component with Platemail, and then make it increase armor instead of flat strength. Of course, the recipe would have to be cheaper, but it's a win-win no matter what.

This is a suggestion, but an interesting idea. Since I'm anxious about the Wisconsin recall election right now and need something to distract me from the skin-crawling thought that Walker might possibly stay in office still, I'll take a closer look at it.

Platemail (1400g) + Warhammer (1600g) + Recipe (900g) = Shrunken Head (3900g) (+10 armor, +24 damage, Magic Immunity 10/9/8/7/6/5)

You lose 190 HP, a bit of HP regen, and +10 damage for Strength heroes in exchange for +60% eHP vs physical damage. We can immediately tell that this benefits heroes with naturally high health a lot more than heroes with naturally high armor. So, new Shrunken Head would provide a survivability boost to most Strength heroes (:berz: :hamm: :mali: :pand: :warb:) and be a survivability nerf to many Agility heroes who have naturally high armor and need raw health to inflate via armor.

It also makes heroes who pick up Shrunken Head 190-HP-easier to burst down before they can activate immunity.

Another thing to consider is that Mighty Blade is very overloaded right now as a component, and Platemail doesn't build into anything except Frostfield Plate. Shifting it over would help even out build paths a bit and incentivize Frostfield Plate slightly more.

The end result is that this would be a survivability buff to Strength heroes (especially :mali: - and the thought of buffing Maliken scares scares scares me) who already have the high health and regeneration to make very effective use of armor, and also make them +10 armor better against other carries and physical damage -- while being a nerf to agility heroes who pick up Shrunken. Is this something we want to encourage? I don't really think so.

On top of that, you're swapping one survivability stat for another with no major changes in balance or power. It seems like moving around numbers for the sake of moving around numbers - and, on top of that, to an item that's not changed for years and is a healthy cornerstone to judge against for balance and to strategize around for playing.

[Alten]

Some of the personal debating in the FB discussion was missed :/

[Gorb]

Enough of it has gone that the discussion can begin anew.

Unless people genuinely enjoy me slapping them across the Internet.

[LordTroll]

Do you guys think Shrunken Head would be overpowered if it gave +15 strength after assembled?

I don't know, 190 HP doesn't seem that much for the ideally only survivability item you want on a hard carry. And forcing hard carries to get more survivability (if Null isn't adequate to the game, and don't come with the premise that Null is good regardless of clutch single target spells on the enemy team) potentially makes games longer, harms farming, doesn't let them be effective until way late into the game, and derived problems.

Regarding the armor FOR health argument, I don't think that's very adequate for any carry 100% of the time, where HP is much more valuable as far as versatility is concerned. Makes the carry "safer", not nichely protected by Shrunken, which in my opinion is the item in the game that needs to give more rough survivability.
If armor is desired, there's already very attractive items even for carries anyways, if they want to fill that niche. Stuff with + agi, bulwark/daemonic, etc.
There's not really versatility as far as DPS/HP hybrid items are concerned... As a general item for any sort of carry, only icebrand comes to mind, and it's a mediocre orb obviously.

So, I'd propose a Shrunken Head that gives +15 strength OR maybe a new item of the sort? Shrunken is not always needed after all. I personally feel like such an item is missing from the game. Nothing with crazy values, mostly a mid game item. Sometimes I just crave for a bit of damage and raw HP in a single package to carry me through a certain section of the game when playing a carry.

[Alten]

Giving any buff to SH is just... ugh. The item is already objectively overpowered; it scales directly to how much magic damage the enemy team has, resulting often in thousands of EHP, and this doesn't even count the nullification of so many slows and stuns that would otherwise impede the carry in dealing his damage and allow for a time period to shut the carry down.

The real problem lies in "safe" ranged picks that rarely need a shrunken head because they're far enough back/possess enough escaping power/just general uberskillsets to just focus directly on items that improve them more than +10 strength and +24 damage. Melee carries will almost always require a shrunken head, for such reasons; they're always going to be subject to whatever disables and nukes the enemies have, and will often have more difficulty in using the escape mechanisms they possess. There are exceptions with MB, madman, arma, etc., but that's simply because their skillset is powerful enough to compete directly with the ranged supercarries. What game, for instance, past 1800 will you not see at least one FA, Valk, Sil, Hag, or Bubbles? Hell, what serious game exists where at least two of them haven't been picked in a single match?

[skeloperch]

This is a suggestion, but an interesting idea. Since I'm anxious about the Wisconsin recall election right now and need something to distract me from the skin-crawling thought that Walker might possibly stay in office still, I'll take a closer look at it.

Platemail (1400g) + Warhammer (1600g) + Recipe (900g) = Shrunken Head (3900g) (+10 armor, +24 damage, Magic Immunity 10/9/8/7/6/5)

You lose 190 HP, a bit of HP regen, and +10 damage for Strength heroes in exchange for +60% eHP vs physical damage. We can immediately tell that this benefits heroes with naturally high health a lot more than heroes with naturally high armor. So, new Shrunken Head would provide a survivability boost to most Strength heroes (:berz: :hamm: :mali: :pand: :warb:) and be a survivability nerf to many Agility heroes who have naturally high armor and need raw health to inflate via armor.

It also makes heroes who pick up Shrunken Head 190-HP-easier to burst down before they can activate immunity.




Another thing to consider is that Mighty Blade is very overloaded right now as a component, and Platemail doesn't build into anything except Frostfield Plate. Shifting it over would help even out build paths a bit and incentivize Frostfield Plate slightly more.

The end result is that this would be a survivability buff to Strength heroes (especially :mali: - and the thought of buffing Maliken scares scares scares me) who already have the high health and regeneration to make very effective use of armor, and also make them +10 armor better against other carries and physical damage -- while being a nerf to agility heroes who pick up Shrunken. Is this something we want to encourage? I don't really think so.

On top of that, you're swapping one survivability stat for another with no major changes in balance or power. It seems like moving around numbers for the sake of moving around numbers - and, on top of that, to an item that's not changed for years and is a healthy cornerstone to judge against for balance and to strategize around for playing.

I feel that armor is an easier prospect to balance than health, seeing as how it only protects you from one damage type. My goal with that was to make Platemail a better item, and to make heroes easier to kill when their magic immunity is down (the majority of the time), while making them stronger when it is up. Those heroes do have naturally high health, but don't ever single one of them prefer to get Daemonic anyways? Stacking armor ends up being less effective than stacking health and armor in the long run, especially when your Shrunken is only up for 5 seconds, and the enemy has a Harkon's.

It might end up having to have less armor than what Platemail gives, though.

Oh yeah, and I've been toying around with trying to make a hero with no disables, no nukes, and no escape mechanism. Need some ideas on where I went wrong (or right?). No le upboat XDDDDDDDD please.
http://dream.heroesofnewerth.com/hero/skeloperch/Hellfire+

[SomethingOdd]

Mmr compression (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?406508-MMR-Compression-OUTCOME/page4) is still OP, nerf pls.
People are still *****ing about it, wow.
(http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?406508-MMR-Compression-OUTCOME/page4)

[SomethingOdd]

AwesomeC is OP, nerf pls.

[XFlame]

...what just happened?

Edit: until this idiot and all of his meaningless posts have been removed, I won't be reading the Balance Forum. I suggest the removal of all of his posts, and a permanent suspension from the Balance Forum.

[Cyber_Kun]

Someone got a bot to annoy me with all the unread threads. This troll is very successful.

[SomethingOdd]

Big thanks for whoever banned Nerfed awesomeC.

[XFlame]

Damn, mods sure are fast around here. That is genuinely impressive.

[SomethingOdd]

Removing scout from <1400 would help the game balance wise

[skeloperch]

But I love smurfing with Scout. I stomped beta testers with him a while ago when the public beta client was still open. That was back when Gauntlet could ROCKETU PAWNCHU you and kill you in a single hit. I think Flint's button should be replaced with the random button if the account has less than 1500 MMR/PSR.

[LordTroll]

I think Flint's button should be replaced with the random button if the account has less than 1500 MMR/PSR.

Lol, talk about cruelty!

[soitcause]

I think Flint's button should be replaced with the random button if the account has less than 1500 MMR/PSR.

Gunblade is the new Flint Beastwood in every bracket <1700.

[Alten]

Except several magnitudes more difficult to kill and much more forgiving positioning-wise.

[soitcause]

And yet the same (if not higher) level of HERP DERP EZ KILLZ.

[skeloperch]

Gun Blade is far harder to do well as, and far harder to mess up as. Flint is piss easy if you know what you're doing, but guess who doesn't know what they're doing?

[`11411181]

Good things come to those who wait, and better things come to those who persevere amidst despair. It is time.

[PzKw]

Is Anakha drunk?

[Ekamo]

I can't think of any other feasible explanations for this sudden urge to spit out proverbs.

Can you?

[Zilrax]

Well he could be high I suppose.

[SomethingOdd]

We Hack into S2, and balance everything. :P
If you along could make One balance change to one skill, and never post in balance again, what would it be, and why.
I'd change balph's silence, It feels weak, and doesn't work the best with his other spells.

[skeloperch]

Everyone is going to go ballistic on you.

I would change Pebbles' Q to cost 120/115/110/105% of his maximum health to cast. This change is irreversible, and it forces you to pick it up whenever possible.

[Zilrax]

I'd make it s none of you can change anything, mwahahahaa!

[skeloperch]

I would type a horribly written response along the lines of "LOL FUK U FAG LOLOLOLOLOLOL", but the mods would have my head.

If that Pebbles change makes him a little too OP, how about making Valkyrie's Leap have a passive that makes her take 4/5/6/7 points of true damage for every point of mana spent?

[XFlame]

And you wonder why people don't take you seriously...

[`11411181]

I don't think he wonders that. I think he wonders why nobody finds his "sense of humour" funny - because it's so witty and all being a ****face repeatedly, isn't it?

[skeloperch]

I'm the bad guy for being able to take everything lightly, I see. Your date stand you up, Anakha?

[PzKw]

Laughing time is ova!

[`11411181]

You take everything lightly now? That's a good joke.

[skeloperch]

Laughing time is ova!

What'a bunch'a jokahs.



Wait, when was I EVER serious, Anakha? The only thing I get serious about is visual novels and ponies. I can't ****ing stand My Little Pony or Type Moon sperglords. I thought everyone realized that you take my word with a grain of salt.

[XFlame]

New hero seems strong. Then again I've only played twice against him in Mid Wars, so my opinion means literally nothing.

[SomethingOdd]

Guise, Tankks are OP, nerf pls.

[Alten]

If a hero possesses a high win percentage in a competitive setting of roughly equal opponents, then it is arguably OP. Whether or not it is a "tank" is irrelevant, unless the fact that it is tanky renders it OP for all the positive aspects of being tanky.

[SomethingOdd]

What I posted was mocking this thread.

[skeloperch]

So, how good is the walking charged hammer?

[SomethingOdd]

he feels meh to me, his Q is hard to land, W is nice, E is mostly to get charges, and his ulti's charges are quite hard to keep up, even with a chalice (not sure if intended). Decreasing the drain rate or making it so attacks on towers and catapults/hellcannons refresh the drain's cooldown would help him a lot.

[Hubaris]

I would assume the chalice causing magic damage is an oversight and probably not intended (IIRC Something like this with SW was allowing him to splash Dissipate out for some minuscule amount of damage at one point).

[LordTroll]

I know Balance Dump is a huge mess, but why come discuss here COMPLETELY off-topic issues? There's sections for that in this very forum, you can go discuss movies with others who want to do the same.

[Scrubs]

Fair enough point. Couldn't resist typing all that out when I saw Pzkw's comment! The point of the argument is vindicator's ult is OP, it permanently silenced key characters in Prometheus. Nerf vindi or the far future will fall apart.

[Ekamo]

Fair enough point. Couldn't resist typing all that out when I saw Pzkw's comment! The point of the argument is vindicator's ult is OP, it permanently silenced key characters in Prometheus. Nerf vindi or the far future will fall apart.

You know have a thread dedicated to the topic. Be happy (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?427627-Prometheus&p=15143629#post15143629).

[Rulke55]

Going to get a lot of hate for this, but Codex is an item that is just cheap (not price wise) just with how it's used. I wouldn't even know how to begin balance it.

My other suggestion will get far more hate, I think Portal Key should be droppable item like Doombringer or Eye. It's just most of the time other team got at least two between heroes, it's normally gg. I doubt these will be liked, but I think they would be good fixes.

As for Codex, I've no idea how to balance it, but at current state, it's abused more often than not.

I've also a question, why is it Swiftblade spin move can't be stunned?

Well hope this works for people, the final question is more curiosity than anything.

[skeloperch]

How about balancing it by having it turn into an Assassin's shroud after you get a kill with it?

[Rulke55]

Not totally sure if that's answer to me, but if you are referring to Codex becoming Assasain Shroud after one kill, well that there has potential. Then again it makes no sense, please inform me if this was answer to my query?

[Salem1]

So, how good is the walking charged hammer?

It's a carry which easily gets countered by other carries, especially melee ones as these have a tendency to need shrunken head more regardlessly. Even if you don't have magic immunity his damage output is not really fearsome compared to other sick melee damage dealers, his burst isn't that high but it's on a high cooldown, he needs a lot of farm (he can't go steamboots > helm/insanitarius > vestments > whispering (if insanitarius) and then start raping like Berzerker for example) both offense and defense-wise. That while quite a bunch of other heroes don't need to bother with either defensive or offensive items - they can afford to specialise, usually because they don't need defense or because they get offense from getting defense - Ravenor needs both.

He needs charged hammer/harkon's in order to get ulti charges at a decent pace but then he also needs shrunken head so he doesn't just get disabled and die due to lack of mobility before getting charges and/or so he's prevented from dealing damage before the storm blades buff expires. Without offensive items that build up his charges he has very weak sustained damage output and not the burst damage to make up for it.

Pretty weak imo. If Corrupted Disciple was melee, Overload did magic damage and didn't reduce armour while Conduit didn't also decrease the enemy's damage and it gave CD less damage you'd get something similar to Ravenor.

Gets an underpowered vote from me. Don't let the tards who will shout S2 HERO OP let you think otherwise. Easily countered with both items and picks, needs massive farm compared to alternatives, weak.

[skeloperch]

Not totally sure if that's answer to me, but if you are referring to Codex becoming Assasain Shroud after one kill, well that there has potential. Then again it makes no sense, please inform me if this was answer to my query?

I was pulling the ol' Shroud + Codex Scout card. But anyways, if we wanted to balance codex, why not make it a DoT instead of burst, that way you can stop people from bottling/potting right after, but they can live if they get healed right after?

[Rulke55]

That's fantastic suggestion Skel, damage over time would make it less cheap and actually make it a less broken item. Which would bring it into use of other types of champs too, since it's damage that goes off over time, rather than all at once.

What about my suggestion for PK?

[skeloperch]

Well, Pkey has a cooldown based on when the holder takes damage, correct? That would stop people from Portal keying away for a bit longer. I do think Portal Key is broken, but all that I really think it needs is to reveal the user when it is used, that way people escaping via portal key will get spotted, and people trying to scout by jumping enemy wards would be caught. If it aint enough, well, only time will tell.

[Rulke55]

Gotta admit, you're coming out with some great suggestions from my own, revealing person if they use it. Now that would perhaps give split second warning of gank. Would people like it? Hmm, I agree as it is it's a broken item, why I figured dropping it if ya die would be good way to do it, since it makes it less easy for bad players to benefit off it so much.

[skeloperch]

The only fault with that is that it's a 2150 gold item that offers no stats and has a cooldown. I don't think it warrants dropping on death, but it is one of the 5 best in game items, along with Puzzle Box, Steam Boots, Bottle, and Shrunken Head.

Also, that suggestion would turn Portal Key into an initiation item. The nerf wouldn't matter if you used it like it was meant to be; as something that allows big AoE blowouts to happen. This way Magmus would still be able to portal key in and ulti, but he wouldn't be able to portal key away as effectively (seeing as how enemies will know where he is, which will help heroes like Aluna, Bombardier, and Pharaoh snipe the fleeing hero).

[Rulke55]

I see it would make it less exploited and require more skill overall, which a item like that should require skill, not derping to area and nuking then derping out. Your suggestion is more fair than mine, when come to think about it is, overly harsh on those who are good, but were outmatched. We don't want to punish good players.

[Salem1]

Hey, I made a post about Ravenor up there. Comment on it damn you :p

[skeloperch]

Of course not. The objective of my nerf was to make it so that it only fills one role as it should, so it won't be as effective as an escape mechanism. As it is, heroes like Magmus and Bubbles can stall until it's off CD, and then portal key away, and you'll never see them again until the next team fight. Were it to give everyone, say, 1,000/1,000 vision of the area the hero ported to, it would make knowing where they're going easier, so that you can catch up to them and kill them.

[skeloperch]

It's a carry which easily gets countered by other carries, especially melee ones as these have a tendency to need shrunken head more regardlessly. Even if you don't have magic immunity his damage output is not really fearsome compared to other sick melee damage dealers, his burst isn't that high but it's on a high cooldown, he needs a lot of farm (he can't go steamboots > helm/insanitarius > vestments > whispering (if insanitarius) and then start raping like Berzerker for example) both offense and defense-wise. That while quite a bunch of other heroes don't need to bother with either defensive or offensive items - they can afford to specialise, usually because they don't need defense or because they get offense from getting defense - Ravenor needs both.

He needs charged hammer/harkon's in order to get ulti charges at a decent pace but then he also needs shrunken head so he doesn't just get disabled and die due to lack of mobility before getting charges and/or so he's prevented from dealing damage before the storm blades buff expires. Without offensive items that build up his charges he has very weak sustained damage output and not the burst damage to make up for it.

Pretty weak imo. If Corrupted Disciple was melee, Overload did magic damage and didn't reduce armour while Conduit didn't also decrease the enemy's damage and it gave CD less damage you'd get something similar to Ravenor.

Gets an underpowered vote from me. Don't let the tards who will shout S2 HERO OP let you think otherwise. Easily countered with both items and picks, needs massive farm compared to alternatives, weak.

I see. Makes sense seeing as half of his skills is ripped from charged hammer. He does seem like he's supposed to be an initiator and pusher rather than a carry, though. I've seen him obliterate creep waves faster than old Electrician. What do you think could be done to make him less of a Min/Max kind of hero?

[Rulke55]

I think we could perhaps have thread on these suggestions now, since you've provided some excellent ideas, if you start the thread, perhaps we could get more input on these ideas, one thing PK gives vision in area it was used from or to, thus making it less broken and hard to derp with and Codex does DoT rather than nuke all at once, making it less OP and giving people a chance to get away, also with this change it be less exploited or abused as nooby item, it would require some amount of skill.

Edit: I see you saw his reply, but just double-checking.

[`11411181]

A wild circlejerk has appeared!

[CrimsonAdder]

A wild circlejerk has appeared!

Lol, took the words out of my fingers. I was smirking over these 2 guys discussing PK while one of them kisses the other's butt. "Oww your suggestion, very good too! more fair than mine. but listen to this now :"

[Brannock]

If people want to bring up issues with Portal Key why not bring up Fnatic vs aY this afternoon on Honcast where there were four Portal Keys on the same team? At least try to make it relevant to current competitive discussion.

[Salem1]

I see. Makes sense seeing as half of his skills is ripped from charged hammer. He does seem like he's supposed to be an initiator and pusher rather than a carry, though. I've seen him obliterate creep waves faster than old Electrician. What do you think could be done to make him less of a Min/Max kind of hero?

I honestly don't care enough about him to think of proper suggestions, that's just what I've concluded from playing as and against him. I don't know what he's supposed to do so I have no point of reference, I feel defining him as a carry is faulty because he's a big liability as a carry and can't carry effectively with reasonable farm (for both sides). So is he an initiator? hardly. Ganker? meh, not really. Support? definitely not. Hybrids are decent at what they do but this guy just doesn't really do anything in the first place. To me he's just a black hole of farm, sucking it up from heroes that could really use it, misleading people into picking him because he looks cool (and to me because the non-EA skin has a pretty nice voice :p).

Unfortunately that's all I have to add...

[SirVH]

This discussion sound more like a troll to me, but I agree that it's ubber gay on Magmus and Bubbles. I think that when they are on Steam Bath / Take Cover, it should trigger the PK cooldown.

Well, to be honest I really think that Bubbles needs some huge nerfs, as I always thought that way about puck.

[Salem1]

Well, to be honest I really think that Bubbles needs some huge nerfs, as I always thought that way about puck.

Thinking that overpowered heroes in this game will get nerfed in HoN is in the long term bad for your sanity because it's not gonna happen. We have heroes like Swiftblade and Predator being considered not balanced (I wouldn't call them balanced but hey) but underpowered - guess in which direction this game is balanced.

[`11411181]

New hero looks like you'd pigeonhole him into the same place as Corrupted Disciple - a midgame autoattack carry. Only this one trades debuffs for a blinkstrike and more damage, with his AoE being mostly AA splash.

- his AoE is strictly worse than Tide (unbound targets on Tide, MUCH higher bonus damage)
- he's melee (vs CD, who is ranged with an amazing animation to lasthit with)
- all his gap closers are actives, and his revenge mechanic is an active - leaving you incredibly vulnerable to pre-emptive initiation and silences, which are typically longer than your usual disables.


I feel he'll lack too many incidentals to make him worth taking over CD.

[Salem1]

New hero looks like you'd pigeonhole him into the same place as Corrupted Disciple - a midgame autoattack carry. Only this one trades debuffs for a blinkstrike and more damage, with his AoE being mostly AA splash.

- his AoE is strictly worse than Tide (unbound targets on Tide, MUCH higher bonus damage)
- he's melee (vs CD, who is ranged with an amazing animation to lasthit with)
- all his gap closers are actives, and his revenge mechanic is an active - leaving you incredibly vulnerable to pre-emptive initiation and silences, which are typically longer than your usual disables.


I feel he'll lack too many incidentals to make him worth taking over CD.

And CD is himself not good against the heroes we're supposed to base our discussion on (not that he's good against pubstar heroes either). But being designated as a melee carry I think he should be compared to other ones, not CD - and here he gets ripped apart by the competition.

[Brannock]

He's not a melee "carry" at all. He's a semicarry that peaks midgame. The distinction might seem like quibbling, but he drops off so hard lategame even if people don't stack magic armor that I can't really think of him as a "carry" at all.

His strength is that he's absolutely, utterly brutal at level 2. I think he might honestly be the strongest level 2 hero in the game - I can't think of any other heroes off the top of my head that have 200 magic burst and 2 seconds stun at level 2. Pebbles? No, not even Pebbles, he doesn't have the mana to doublecast that early. Ravenor is one of the better kill lane choices, which makes him very distinct from CD to me given that CD is best played as a solo or with a hard support babysitting. Ravenor is wasted as a solo lane, that's how good he is in a kill lane.

Frankly the hero vibes I get from him remind me of Dampeer more than anything. Blink strike, small AOE stun, heavy magic damage, no escape mechanism.

[Salem1]

If you think he's stronger than CD in either a kill lane or on level 2, I can only guess you don't have much experience with CD (which is further evidenced because you said solo or hard support babysit - the first is suicide unless you meant mid which is still a really bad matchup against many heroes and the second is hardly ideal for a hero with such a strong early game ability as conduit and such relatively poor base damage, it's like with Swiftblade, put him on a kill lane so he can snowball). 200 damage and 2s stun on level 2 is not really fearful kill lane-wise, off the top of my head Swiftblade and Slither/Glacius/Whoever would laugh at it.

I do agree with the first and third paragraphs though.

It was actually a good thing you brought up Dampeer because thinking about it I believe Dampeer is just a better Ravenor. better burst, lower cooldowns, practically identical disabling, practically undodgeable blink strike which is so much better than a setup-requiring easily avoidable one, team support through lifesteal (Ravenor's support is non-existent), better sustainment because he can heal himself (and I mean not only through his passive which also helps), needs much less farm to be a greater threat... the only reason to pick Ravenor over Dampeer would be if you absolutely require Ravenor's sustained damage output through his ultimate (and it's not like Dampeer lags behind in that regard). But that's not easy at all to achieve either through farming the required item(s) or in actual combat and is also a liability to rely on. So yeah...

[Rulke55]

Maybe for the other person it was, but not for me. I made it clear wasn't totally sure on my ideas, which is why suggested them here. Trolling would indicate I'm right and therefore everyone should conform to it.

*sighs*

In the end it was a suggestion nothing more and nothing less, seems less many of ya got wrong idea...

[Brannock]

The difference between CD/Swiftblade and Ravenor being that Ravenor's spells put him in the perfect position to continue attacking (and blocking) his enemy after the abilities have flown, much like Magmus and Bubbles can. Swiftblade needs to get into position first and doesn't pack a stun/slow at level 2; Corrupted Disciple needs to be outside his attack range to get maximum damage on Electric Tide.

It's 200 magic damage, 2 seconds stun, AND Ravenor's beefy base damage - where he's in a position to hit at least 3 times, if not many more times than that. This is on top of him synergizing well with other aggressive laners who can provide stun/damage/autoattacks of their own.

I will admit though that I don't have much experience with CD in a kill lane. When I do play him I play him as a solo mid or have a support such as :glac: or :deme: babysitting who can enable aggression in a lane. CD also hasn't been very popular in high level play lately, so I'm not able to draw conclusions off that either. Given that you speak highly of him, however, I'll have to give him a shot in that setup sometime.

[`11411181]

"200 damage and 2s stun on level 2 is not really fearful kill lane-wise"

Kidding? Keep in mind that's including his base damage, whereas the spells that often look like 2sec stun with magic damage are usually around the 150 damage mark, and without the extra AA damage. Ravenor's Q also allows him to not have to commit to a bad situation initially, unlike something like a Magmus stun. As a kill lane, I'd say he's much stronger than a CD simply for having a blinkstrike and being allowed to autoattack WHILE using his spells.

Note: I'm not sure about the cast-times on them and how they impact, so this is all mostly on the assumption that they are low enough to not really put any significant obstacle to outputting the damage immediately after blinking in. If this isn't the case, i'll retract this.

Also, CD is a brutal solo mid against even the best, and is a viable trilane carry candidate. Dunno how you can say he's terrible in a solo. Hell, or even terrible at all (that's the general impression I'm getting from you, feel free to correct me there).

[Salem1]

The difference between CD/Swiftblade and Ravenor being that Ravenor's spells put him in the perfect position to continue attacking (and blocking) his enemy after the abilities have flown, much like Magmus and Bubbles can. Swiftblade needs to get into position first and doesn't pack a stun/slow at level 2; Corrupted Disciple needs to be outside his attack range to get maximum damage on Electric Tide.

It's 200 magic damage, 2 seconds stun, AND Ravenor's beefy base damage - where he's in a position to hit at least 3 times, if not many more times than that. This is on top of him synergizing well with other aggressive laners who can provide stun/damage/autoattacks of their own.

I will admit though that I don't have much experience with CD in a kill lane. When I do play him I play him as a solo mid or have a support such as :glac: or :deme: babysitting who can enable aggression in a lane. CD also hasn't been very popular in high level play lately, so I'm not able to draw conclusions off that either. Given that you speak highly of him, however, I'll have to give him a shot in that setup sometime.

That's true, although Swiftblade is pretty fast anyway but yeah. I finish enemies off with Tide if I can't get them with autoattacks. Like Swiftblade, Ravenor will want his ally to run up and slow them first to guarantee that he gets his spell off even if he can hit Q without that - which means the enemy will be at least somewhat prepared. I need to see Ravenor in action more on a kill lane to really know but on paper it doesn't sound special whether it's got autoattacks after or not. It'll put out pretty strong damage on one enemy but I doubt it'll finish it off.

Yeah I think you really should ;) it needs to be against the right enemies but anything that significantly slows or disables people for a long period of time works with him, you can run Glacius/Magmus/whatever too but it'll be more even then. Me and my friend's favourite setup is CD + Pharaoh for example but even something like Armadon is also really good. Lanes like that obviously wouldn't work in competitive because they would only pick heroes with escapes to face it, but it works here.


"200 damage and 2s stun on level 2 is not really fearful kill lane-wise"

Kidding? Keep in mind that's including his base damage, whereas the spells that often look like 2sec stun with magic damage are usually around the 150 damage mark, and without the extra AA damage. Ravenor's Q also allows him to not have to commit to a bad situation initially, unlike something like a Magmus stun. As a kill lane, I'd say he's much stronger than a CD simply for having a blinkstrike and being allowed to autoattack WHILE using his spells.

Note: I'm not sure about the cast-times on them and how they impact, so this is all mostly on the assumption that they are low enough to not really put any significant obstacle to outputting the damage immediately after blinking in. If this isn't the case, i'll retract this.

Also, CD is a brutal solo mid against even the best, and is a viable trilane carry candidate. Dunno how you can say he's terrible in a solo. Hell, or even terrible at all (that's the general impression I'm getting from you, feel free to correct me there).

The thing is you've got lanes like Armadon + anything, Swiftblade + Slither/Glacius/Revenant etc., Cthuluphant + DS and even obscure ones like Artillery + Panda/Armadon/etc. and they're not gonna have problems facing this kill lane. So that's the problem, not that the lane isn't any good at all because it can get kills. It's pointless to debate about how good it is against non-kill lanes because any kill lane is supposed to be good against them. I personally think you can judge whether a situation is good or bad before going in quite easily by just looking at who will have creep support, how close you are to towers, how far apart they are etc... it's stuff that you'll see before commiting anyway, what did you have in mind?

Yeah the cast times are fine.

What carry isn't viable in a trilane :p? CD has a bad matchup against these heroes mid (I'll only mention those that I see):

- Arachna
- Doctor Repulsor
- Nomad
- Tremble
- Aluna
- Puppet Master
- Succubus
- Lord Salforis

Disadvantageous matchups:

- Any melee, though it's possible to win by standing behind their creep line and harassing if they come close if they're not sure what to do against that (harass back and then proceed as normal when conduit is on cooldown).
- Anything that can easily kill him on level 5/6+, he has no escape and no slow or disable to keep people away from him so if say Arachna runs up and presses R on you, you're dead (and if you teleport out you'll spend gold on that and lose mid from loss of exp and gold anyway), Gauntlet R's you = dead (though I've managed to survive and even kill him back on occasions) and so on.
- Anything ranged that outharasses him like Silhouette (this is far from not winnable if he's worse at last hitting & denying than you but still disadvantageous).

He does have good matchups like against Midas but I don't see such heroes mid much anymore.

CD's problem is that conduit is typically useless against the heroes that are often picked but the hero itself is strong assuming a reasonable early game. There are so many common heroes that can instantly break conduit and/or prevent it through casting on them through ability and/or common first item pickup. Quick examples: Swiftblade, Silhouette, Valkyrie, Predator, Arachna, Doctor Repulsor, Drunken Master anything with active invisibility (it's unfortunately not uncommon to not have enough/proper reveal even with ''get eye/dust/wards'' goading) so heroes like Nomad/Keeper/Magmus, Electrician, Jeraziah, Monarch, the list goes on... Ravenor is funnily enough an ideal hero to face for CD, most ideally in a 2v2 lane.

In other words he's easy to neuter and while his animation is good he doesn't have the base damage to back it up, letting people who can also time their animations right and heroes with hatchet match him (same reason Flint is currently not noted for winning cs wars despite the animation).

I am quite pessimistic about CD and I don't do as bad as I give you the impression I do, but that tends to be because of something my enemy doesn't do which I think they should or that they do something which gives me an advantage. I know how poor a pick he is against so many heroes... that's why.

[PzKw]

Cd loses solo against melees?

Missed that memo...

[Salem1]

He loses against many melees that are viable mid. Of course he won't have problems against Ra or Panda mid, but try going up against something like Nomad. Unlike Razor, CD's conduit is on a cooldown long enough to create significant downtime but you need it to win engagements. and then you won't have it the next time if you use it. This means that a smart melee player and/or simply someone with experience against ranged heroes mid can make it pretty difficult for you.

[PzKw]

Nomad is a viable mid?

[Hubaris]

Its funny how PzKw's comment would have completely different connotations a few months ago. :noma:

[skeloperch]

Nomad has been crap for a while... nah, not even going there. He's always been sub-par.

Also, I'm assuming that Ravenor's cooldowns are short enough to ensure a kill against the plethora of heroes that aren't Vindicator, right? If he isn't very good late game, shouldn't he have some pretty strong early game?

[Brannock]

:amun:

http://i.imgur.com/7NxKh.png

[skeloperch]

What, how do you think the dinosaurs died? Meteors don't just affect the impact site.

[LordTroll]

Nomad has been crap for a while... nah, not even going there. He's always been sub-par.

Also, I'm assuming that Ravenor's cooldowns are short enough to ensure a kill against the plethora of heroes that aren't Vindicator, right? If he isn't very good late game, shouldn't he have some pretty strong early game?

His early game is insanely strong with any support with a reliable disable. At lvl 2 he has a blink strike that stuns and does tons of burst magic damage. Easily half HP off of most heroes, sometimes more.

[skeloperch]

His early game is insanely strong with any support with a reliable disable. At lvl 2 he has a blink strike that stuns and does tons of burst magic damage. Easily half HP off of most heroes, sometimes more.

I thought you were talking about Nomad for a bit, and I was about to go get my backup video.

From the sounds of it, he has a strong early game with a support, but sucks without a support.

[Salem1]

Nomad is a viable mid?

Yes he is against CD.

[LordTroll]

I thought you were talking about Nomad for a bit, and I was about to go get my backup video.

From the sounds of it, he has a strong early game with a support, but sucks without a support.

Well, he should be a strong solo mid against some melee. Since they will have to get close to you, doing a ninja Q followed by quick W and auto attacks will be devastating. But yes, his true power lies with an aggressive support.

I also think Nomad is strong against some melee solo heroes. True Strike on a slightly out of position enemy followed by super fast auto attacks after a few levels hurts a fair bit.

[skeloperch]

The only hero I've managed to lose mid to Nomad as was Blood Hunter, and that was mostly out of my ****ing up last hits because I was overestimating his damage. He doesn't really hurt that much, and has no way to safely kill heroes early. I think he's just trash right now. I might even advocate BH over him since BH has that wack ass silence.

Either way, his snow balling lies within drafting, so Ravenor seems like an incredibly niche pick. Basically a Moon Queen with proper AoE.

[Ekamo]

Hell EFFING YEAH! (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?428384-Change-in-Hero-Release-Schedule)

HoN is suddenly not doomed to die a painful and slow death by constricting itself anymore. This step by S2 makes me so happy inside :)