Balance Dump

[GregerMoek]

Based on feedback from GD thread, a bit corrected balance list part1.
Accursed
Q - rescaled to heal 300 at lvl 4 (skill already dmgs you to compensate for cooldown, so it should be normal amount)
W - Explodes if timer runs out.(dota ripoff)
R - 30/40/50% of damage taken converted to shield on top of hp, if hp is full. Duration from 3/4/5 to 3.5/4.5/5.5(everyone knows how to counter it, if they don't, they should suffer)



Accursed needs no buffs at all. Especially not a huge one like this.



Aluna
E - Cooldown from 30 to 30/27/24/21 (cooldown is too big for what it does.)
R - manacost from 75/100/125 to 75 on all levels.(too costly)



Aluna doesn't need buffs either, I don't even see why a hero that is played sometimes but not always would not be considered fine.



Andromeda
Agi gain from 2.35 to 2.7
(to increase her ability to be semicarry.)



I don't see why you'd want Andromeda as a semicarry or even promote that kind of role-switch/ versatility buff.




Balphagore
increased str gain from 2.7 to 3.1
W - duration from 1/2/3/4 to 1.75/2.5/3.25/4
(1 sec silence is too low for 100 mana on str hero.)



Balphagore doesn't need buffs either, I don't see why you want to buff so many heroes that are fine/niche already. You basically buff things instead of nerf already powerful heroes. Do you know what Power Creep is?




Bombardier
increased agi gain from 1.4 to 1.9
(just some buff to increase his survivability a bit lategame.)


No needed buff yet again, it's not a big buff but still unneeded.



Chronos
increased str gain from 1.4 to 1.7(because he got poorest stat gain in the game.)
E- 40/60/80/100 damage per proc.
(early levels of passive already suffer from need to have more hits in order to proc so there is no reason for it to have low dmg. Overall 8 dmg/hit increase, not a big deal.)


Not sure why a hero can't have low stat gain with such a huge potential in skills alone.



Chipper
Q - can now hit neutrall creeps.
(to allow him to farm with his rockets)



Not sure why you wanna buff Chipper either, could you perhaps state anywhere why you wanna buff a lot of heroes that are fine?





Empath
Q - total dmg/heal from 20/35/50/65 to 18/36/54/72(its a dot so dmg should be higher)
W - deals 40/60/80/100 initial damage to targets in range, 40 dmg per sec after that.(more reliable wall dmg.)
R - dmg bonus from 40/60/80 to 40/80/120 (most of the time if host dies, then empath dies, little bit more reward for being in ulti and )



Yet another hero that is fine and doesn't need buffs.



Engineer
base dmg from 40-47 to 43-50
movespeed from 295 to 300
(hard to lasthit with him.)

Hard to last hit is part of his balance, he is already a good hero.




Flint beastwood
R - gives 50/100/150 gold if enemy is lasthited by it.
(money shot it is.)


Flint needs no buff. Other heroes needs nerfs if anything.



Geomancer
Q - pressing Q no longer interrupts the dig, geomancer stuns from underground in aoe but keeps moving to the pointed destination, can press Q once more to stop the dig completely.(Q to stun, but move, QQ to stun and stop, will allow geo to stun someone, but not go into heat of the battle).
W - after charged slow effect wears off, debuff stays for 2 more seconds with initial slow amount.( 20 sec cooldown for skill that is so easy to counter, either lower cd, or this)
Hitting target with Dig while in quicksand would apply maximum slow charges instantly.(if monster hit you from underground while you are in shifting sand, it's logical to fall further in that sand)
E - if target dies while effect is on, still plays its full duration on that place.
(or let it be casted on ally/yourself)
Glacius
R - mana cost from 150/175/200 to 175/275/375
(too low manacost for such a devastating ulti at lvl 1, too low cost increase at lvl2/3)


Unneeded changes with added versatility.




hellbringer
E - duration from 5.5 / 7 / 8.5 / 10 to 7 seconds flat.(skill gets too much buffs from lvl 1 to lvl 4)
R - dmg from 100 to 100/150/200(the point is stun and malphas, but 100 dmg is not a big deal)
what do you think?

Some other unneeded changes that are unmotivated. No reasoning besides "hard to last hit" or "worst state gain".

[Mankrik]

New FotM:

Berserker.
Succubus.
Torturer.

[man_guy]

Based on feedback from GD thread, a bit corrected balance list part1.Agree w/ FA, Glacius, BH changes, but the rest seem misguided.


Chipper
Q - can now hit neutrall creeps.
(to allow him to farm with his rockets)He had this in beta before seeing normal release. It was removed because he can stack several creep camps effortlessly.

[Ekamo]

Rule #7 (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=393760) people.

You are not immune in this forum, so manner up.

[Zilrax]

I read that, then I read your signature and scratched my head. :3

[Ekamo]

I read that, then I read your signature and scratched my head. :3

There is a difference between offending to achieve a purpose or offending for the sake of offending.

Nice catch though ;)

[Anakha]

I leave for 2 weeks, come back and pechkin is still at it.

Some things never change.

[Zilrax]

In this case the purpose is that why do I have to explain the obvious? That list is at best a joke or at worst a troll. It definitely belongs in here, but I won't pretend that makes it worth the effort it took to copy and paste it from GD.

I never said a thing about him anyways but the list. So I'm not in violation of the rules anyways unless you stretch it pretty far.

[pewpewstar]

Nah the burden of proof is clearly on us, hurry up and explain

[Skyve]

Bloodhunter Rework

Blood Crazy - No more damage buff, no more ally castable
Magic, 600 Range, 15 seconds CD, 50 mana
Applies Blood Crazy to the target for 4/5/6/7 seconds, silencing it. Every second the target didn't attack, it is dealt 20/32/40/46 magic damage.
(Up to 80/160/240/320 damage)

Feast - Remains as is

Blood Sense - removed ally bonus, improved to be his "carry potential"
Nearby enemy heroes grant bloodhunter 0.5/0.75/1.0/1.25 attack speed and 0.75/1.5/2.25/3 movementspeed per % of their HP missing. Bloodhunter retains the highest bonus for 2 seconds regardless of enemy HP % changes inside his radius or them leaving. Also reveals enemies that fall below 40% of their HP.
Radius: 1500/300/4500/6000 for reveal, 600/700/800/900 for MS and AS bonus

Hemmorhage - Same mana/cd/range
Deals 200/300/400 superior magic damage and applies Hemmorhage for 7 seconds dealing 20/30/40 superior magic damage per second increasing by 20% for every 100 distance the enemy is away from the castpoint.

Reasoning:

Silence is good, silencing yourself sucks. His Q skill gets less duration, more damage, and can't be cast on allies anymore. Better silence, and no drawback when you use it.
Feast doesn't get changed as I like it very much. I think it makes him unique in that he is one of the very few heroes you can't easily harass out of a lane.
Blood Snese is now Martyrs aura, just not an aura.The 2 second linger is there to prevent enemies from getting away easily after you kill someone. The bonus attackspeed seems to make sense to me and should give him decent carry potential. The average benefit from these effects should be calculated on 50% of enemy health -> 62,5 AS on average, 150 MS bonus on average (which is lower than current 44%, but starts earlier, so it should be fine). The radius for the bonus AS and MS is lower to make up for increased overall strength. Ally bonus removed as no longer applicable the same way as before.
Hemmorhage - The change deals with the "blink"/Tablet problem in a more elegant way, needs a cap though, and I'm not too sure on numbers, but I was using 1000 distance as a general baseline for calculations.
Hemmo damage might still be a bit high though, especially when also counting the new silence (need to increase the manacost at least).

[Mediocre]

I read that, then I read your signature and scratched my head. :3

Made me giggle, wp.

[changlingbob]

There is a difference between offending to achieve a purpose or offending for the sake of offending.

Nice catch though ;)

They're trying to get pechkin to a) think and b) learn. Pechkin consistently refuses to do either.

[XFlame]

I approve of that BH rework. Make it happen, S2.

[pechkin]

They're trying to get pechkin to a) think and b) learn. Pechkin consistently refuses to do either.
by providing arguments like "this hero does not need buffs" ok...

[changlingbob]

Case in point, no heroes need buffs; it would be much better to nerf the more powerful heroes down to a given level. Buffing the heroes we think aren't strong enough leads to a spiral upwards until every hero has 4 abilities that are all aoe nukes that stun, blink, heal and so forth. Fortunately we currently only have to deal with midas.

[pechkin]

my point is there are top-tier heroes, mid-tier heroes and low -tier heroes, not just top and low tiers. And none of those changes will make those low-tier heroes top-tier, they will just become mid tier. I totally agree that top tier heroes need to be brought down.

[Anakha]

I honestly don't believe you have a good enough grasp upon the subtler mechanics of the game (as evidenced through your posts here, in f13 in general and in SBT) to really say that with any kind of certainty.

[GregerMoek]

my point is there are top-tier heroes, mid-tier heroes and low -tier heroes, not just top and low tiers. And none of those changes will make those low-tier heroes top-tier, they will just become mid tier. I totally agree that top tier heroes need to be brought down.

If you agree on that, why not add a couple of nerfs in your supposed patch notes?

[changlingbob]

If you agree on that, why not add a couple of nerfs in your supposed patch notes?
Because he doesn't think and doesn't learn.

[the_tes]

Hemmorhage - Same mana/cd/range
Deals 200/300/400 superior magic damage and applies Hemmorhage for 7 seconds dealing 20/30/40 superior magic damage per second increasing by 20% for every 100 distance the enemy is away from the castpoint.

How would that work with TPs?

[Skyve]

How would that work with TPs?

As listed in my reasoning below that, it does need a cap.

So, slight update to rework proposition:

Bloodhunter Rework

Blood Crazy - No more damage buff, no more ally castable, dispells on killing a creep, deals more damage
Magic, 600 Range, 9 seconds CD, 75 mana
Applies Blood Crazy to the target for 4/5/6/7 seconds, silencing it and dealing 20/32/40/46 magic damage per second. If the enemy kills a unit while under the effect of Blood Crazy the debuff is dispelled.
(Up to 80/160/240/320 damage)

Feast - Remains as is, maybe slight number tweaks due to the overall better hero potential

Blood Sense - removed ally bonus, improved to be his "carry potential"
Nearby enemy heroes grant bloodhunter 0.5/0.75/1.0/1.25 attack speed and 0.75/1.5/2.25/3 movementspeed per % of their HP missing. Bloodhunter retains the highest bonus for 2 seconds regardless of enemy HP % changes inside his radius or them leaving. Also reveals enemies that fall below 40% of their HP.
Radius: 1500/300/4500/6000 for reveal, 900 for MS and AS bonus

Hemmorhage - Same mana/cd/range, reworked to deal a DoT based on distance traveled from castpoint
Deals 200/300/400 superior magic damage and applies Hemmorhage for 7 seconds dealing 20/30/40 superior magic damage per second increasing by 20% for every 100 distance the enemy is away from the castpoint.
Maximum of 400% increase.

Reasoning:

Silence is good, silencing yourself sucks, if only for the reason that you don't have to use a silence on someone else than an enemy. His Q skill gets less duration, more damage, and can't be cast on allies anymore. Better silence, and no drawback when you use it.

Feast doesn't get changed as I like the idea of having a hero that can't be harassed out of a lane without great effort, which gives him something unique and purposeful.

Blood Sense is now Martyrs aura, just not an aura. The 2 second linger is there to prevent enemies from getting away easily after you kill someone. The bonus attackspeed seems to make sense to me and should give him decent carry potential. The average benefit from these effects should be calculated somewhere below 50% of enemy health -> 62,5 - 70 AS on average, 150 MS bonus on average (which is lower than current 44%, but starts earlier, so it should be fine). The radius for the bonus AS and MS is lower to make up for increased overall strength. Ally bonus removed as no longer applicable the same way as before.
Hemmorhage - The change deals with the "blink"/Tablet problem in a more elegant way, needs a cap though, and I'm not too sure on numbers, but I was using 1000 distance as a general baseline for calculations.
Hemmo damage might still be a bit high though, especially when also counting the new silence.

Overall the goal for the rework is: Make Bloodhunter a reliable hero. Give him some decent lane presence. With the proposed changes currently the goal would be to make him a decent solo sidelane that should be able to outlasthit most heroes due to good attack point and base damage and ability to ignore harass. His silence now works as a constant harass ability, which should enable him to force people out of lane in the long run, while BH simply regens through lasthits. A chalice/bottle could become a decent item for him here, seeing how spamming his silence now actually serves a real purpose.

The outcome of the hero should be the following: During laning, his role is similar to that of a Slither - get the enemy out of the lane and get freefarm for your hero. Unlike Slither, BH would be more gank and carry oriented, while Slither is more focused on teamfight damage and pushing, making the two heroes differentiate enough to warrant both existing.

[skeloperch]

I would rather not see those proposed changes. I believe the best possible choices are to make his ulti work with all mobility (ToC, Blink, and etc.), or to give him a watered down version of Alchemist's passive. Blood Hunter isn't far from being dangerous, he just lacks a little something that would push him into the spot light.

[DancingTeCup]

I really think that when summoning malphas, it should cause 100 damage or something like that. If only 100 damage at all levels or something like that.

[Brannock]

Why?

[pechkin]

If you agree on that, why not add a couple of nerfs in your supposed patch notes?
because OP heroes are further in alphabet? Or just not enough info whether they are in mid or OP state, or they were recently nerfed, or they are already being looked into.
and if you didn't see, i nerfed glac and fa.

[skeloperch]

But you forgot Valkyrie, Bubbles, MoA, and Pebbles, I believe. You cannot have a good change log without one of those 4 heroes getting mercilessly beaten with the nerf-bat.

[Skyve]

Skelo, didn't you say you were gonna leave?

[SirVH]

Why str heroes are so overpowered in hon?

[changlingbob]

Assuming your premise is correct, I'ma go with blood chalice. I'm not convinced it is though.

[changlingbob]

Also, I'm going to quote this from another thread:


I'll be honest and say I think the item is fine, and prefer other damage items adjusted instead because I want this game to be Heroes of Newerth instead of items of Newerth.

Is this the big problem it appears it could be? Certainly a lot of heroes are replaceable with each other within their role, and item pickups define a lot of the balance of power rather than the hero themselves.

[Skyve]

Is this the big problem it appears it could be? Certainly a lot of heroes are replaceable with each other within their role, and item pickups define a lot of the balance of power rather than the hero themselves.

Problem is more that we have lots of heroes specifically designed to play the same role, instead if having heroes designed for a purpose.

Eg, heroes designed with a mindset of "this is going to be a ganker so he's going to get nuke, disable nuke and strong burst ultimate" rather than "what kind of mechanic would be interesting to explore".

[Orchest]

I've come to see it as S2 only seeing 4 roles, and trying to shoehorn everything into those roles, and every time something outside that comes up they say "Won't be viable in comp." or "Irk, does XXXX. This isn't comparable to anything else. People would be scared of it."

Hence a million heroes hewn from the same block.

[dandylion]

I've come to see it as S2 only seeing 4 roles, and trying to shoehorn everything into those roles, and every time something outside that comes up they say "Won't be viable in comp." or "Irk, does XXXX. This isn't comparable to anything else. People would be scared of it."

Hence a million heroes hewn from the same block.

I rather disagree with that statement. I feel like almost all of the recently released heroes are more niche-y and don't quite play like anything else in the game, despite filling similar roles.
:gemi: :monk: :lord: :reve: :flux: :para: Artesia Kinesis Gravekeeper don't feel or play (to me) like anything else in the game. Maybe some of them aren't the "newest" heroes, but they're still fairly new in the grand scheme of things. Whether I agree with the mechanics/playstyle is something entirely different, but as far as exploring different ways to fill the same shoes, I think they've ventured out quite a bit recently.

And there really aren't any "new" roles to uncover. Regardless of how you label them in specifics, they still fall into carry/initiator/ganker/support in some way, shape, or form in terms of roles.

[SirVH]

Assuming your premise is correct, I'ma go with blood chalice. I'm not convinced it is though.

I'm really convinced it's the huge damage output.

[_BIGboss_]

Many balances are nice, like of geomancer, but the old heros dont need any balance, that recent balance on tremble... omg dont it's the tremble of spotlight, the shoudder(boris now ¬¬') cant to much without the tremble close, and the midas dont it's my best support hero, cant heal anything more ¬¬'(midas, "you want my best?" to "the other team only have noobs, u can pick midas")

i'm not saying "dont change any hero" but many heros dont need any change



please never change dw, salf, cd, pest... :D

[Ekamo]

Many balances are nice, like of geomancer, but the old heros dont need any balance, that recent balance on tremble... omg dont it's the tremble of spotlight, the shoudder(boris now ¬¬') cant to much without the tremble close, and the midas dont it's my best support hero, cant heal anything more ¬¬'(midas, "you want my best?" to "the other team only have noobs, u can pick midas")

i'm not saying "dont change any hero" but many heros dont need any change



please never change dw, salf, cd, pest... :D

Google translate won't pick this up. What language is he using? What is he saying?

[argnoferich]

Being tanky still rules this game.

Guess why I'm going to Dota 2?

[GregerMoek]

He is saying that many heroes are nicely balanced (in his opinion) and that he doesn't think old heroes needs balancing. Complains about Midas' heal being weaker and now only functions as a noobstomper, also complains about Tremble now as his pet supposedly can't do much without the hero nearby any longer.

He's not saying "don't change any hero" but many heroes doesn't need changes.

Last sentence is more of a request that DW, Salf, CD and Pestilence shouldn't be changed.

Wasn't too hard for me to understand to be honest.

[skeloperch]

Skelo, didn't you say you were gonna leave?

I basically did. I only ever respond to posts my friends send to me (because of how dumb they are). Other than that, I'll visit OT when 4chan goes down because Moot accidentally the entire server.

[SirVH]

Guess why I'm going to Dota 2?

I don't think it will change much. Beastmaster, Tiny, Dragon Knight, Huskar, Omni, Slardar, Doom Bringer, Balanar, Levi, Skeleton King, Naix, Bara...

I don't really know why those games don't use the common sense that anyone tanky shouldn't deal tons of damage.

[Hsssh]

Being tanky still rules this game.

Guess why I'm going to Dota 2?

Guess why i'm putting you on ignore?

[changlingbob]

Guess why I'm going to Dota 2?

Because dota has silencer?

[changlingbob]

Vindicator is dead, long live Silencer.

Like, new vindicator relies on his ult to not die like a ***** when someone looks at him funny, he doesn't have any support skills, he can't gank, and the only way he can carry is with 20+ minutes of freefarm to build enough defense and enough int to be relevant.

[Reldnahc]

Fantastic balance patch

[Zilrax]

I'd write what I wrote in irc but it'd use too many asterisks.

I'm just gonna go on ahead and say that Vindicator is pretty bad now. This did not address why he makes a terrible carry yet tried to force him into that mold by not giving you the choice.

[Salem1]

Vindicator is dead, long live Silencer.

Like, new vindicator relies on his ult to not die like a ***** when someone looks at him funny, he doesn't have any support skills, he can't gank, and the only way he can carry is with 20+ minutes of freefarm to build enough defense and enough int to be relevant.

You mean just like before? :P

---

About today's patch, why can't S2 do balance right? they change hardly anything and this is like the 3rd patch in a row (in recent memory - most/all heroes that are OP have been so for as long as I can remember with some specific exceptions) that nothing really happens... they even buffed Nomad's slow and true strike damage like he needed compensation...

[MahonY]

Monkey king is over powered

[DarkAgonizer]

Why those who auto attack vindy are silenced ?
Whats the idea behind that
Imagine i play pebbles i stun - chuck and hit him then i am silenced duh?
Or i play monkey king i combo him like never before and then i auto attack him to death
like never before of course i will not hit him if i dont want to be silenced ...

[Ninaran]

I don't like how they butchered my favorite hero.

I really don't like that.

:[ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgoyApXnsY)

Guess he was too big a problem for all the new combo-heros S2 is bringing out.

[Epok_Elipse]

What did S2 do to Vindicator?

Things he used to be good for:
-Mana harass
-Scaling damage
-Anti-combo hero

Things he no longer has:
-Mana harass
-Scaling damage
-Anti-combo hero

His 1st skill:
S2 tried the "borrow ability score" thing with chronos, and then they took it away. At BEST it gives Vindi +15 DMG now, only temporarily. If you had to nerf the whole "permanent int steal" thing, then make it like devo's str gain. This Skill now does less than 1/2 the damage it could have potentially have done before, and no longer has MANA harass.

His 3rd skill:
I'm not sure how i feel about the attack speed increase. +40 IAS is powerful, but does it FIT with the hero? I KNOW I hate the nerf to his silence. At max it used to be 3.25 seconds on any spell cast. Now it's 2.0 seconds ONLY when Vindi is attacked. This means 2 TERRIBLE things for Vindicator;
1.) His allies are no longer protected from combo heroes like pebbles/damp/etc., which DRASTICALLY reduces his USEFULNESS in teamfights.
2.) He is no longer protected himself from being chain disabled by polly/witch slayer/anyone with a 2 second stun/etc., which DRASTICALLY reduces his SURVIVABILITY.

I don't like the disappearance of the support class. ALL agility heroes are made to carry, as are HALF the intelligence (or to ks) and HALF the strength heroes.

The other half of STR heroes are made to tank, and the other half of INT heroes are made for support.

TLDR;
1/6 of the in-game heroes as true supports, and 1/6 of in-game heroes are true tanks. Since there's 5 players per team, the average team now has less than 1 full support hero, and less than 1 full tank.

[dandylion]

Not a fan of the vindi rework as it is on paper. I guess we'll see how it pans out in game, but really not impressed at this point.

[XFlame]

Vindi, nooooooooooooooooo

I like all the other changes though, we'll see how Vindi works now.

[ElementUser]

Time to ignore Vindicator or just nuke him down.

[Fen__]

Why did they nerfed vindi ? Oo

Did i missed sth ?

[Mediocre]

Nice balance changes overall.

Vindi rework was meh, but I've always hated that hero so its no problem for me ;)

Anyway, I really like that they have started to take balance more seriously with frequent changes every other week.

Keep it up S2!

[Salem1]

Nice balance changes overall.

Vindi rework was meh, but I've always hated that hero so its no problem for me ;)

Anyway, I really like that they have started to take balance more seriously with frequent changes every other week.

Keep it up S2!

How can you even consider +/-1 stat here and there and some slight spell adjustments to be changes?

[Skyve]

Vindicator is dead, long live Silencer.

Like, new vindicator relies on his ult to not die like a ***** when someone looks at him funny, he doesn't have any support skills, he can't gank, and the only way he can carry is with 20+ minutes of freefarm to build enough defense and enough int to be relevant.

You can easily accumulate a bonus of 18 and more int during teamfights.

Not that I like most things about his changes, but giving him an int version of Dirge's Q skill wasn't that bad.

[Anakha]

Not everything has to be a grand sweeping rework in order to be considered a change.

Speaking of shitty grand reworks, **** that ****.

[Fen__]

You can easily accumulate a bonus of 18 and more int during teamfights.

Not that I like most things about his changes, but giving him an int version of Dirge's Q skill wasn't that bad.

If vindi can get +18 int, than tempest can land a 5 man ultimate ...

Average hero got destroyed to sustain broken heroes opness (mk,zerk,ra,nomad) :)

[Brannock]

HotBL change will affect its strength over time, and should help push it into more of an up-front deflection item instead of an over-time mitigation item.

:amun: change should stop pubbies from jungling. Not much effect on higher-level play though it affects his lane aggressiveness, and means that he has to cast spells to jungle farm later on in the game instead of just passively autoattacking and having his passive burn down creeps while he regenerates. It'll hit his sustainability pretty hard. Subtly done, I like it.

:andr: change is fantastic. I always though the last round of nerfs was overboard. This is a step towards her old status. Don't think we'll see her in competitive play based on this though.

:arte:, :defi:, :flux:, :geom:, :grav:, :kine:: Meh.

:noma:: Whoa son. This has a MAJOR ****ing effect on his gameplay. He's now forced to True Strike to actually apply damage. He can't safely nuke people down in lane anymore with Mirage Strike application, and the change to Sandstorm reflects this - he's now actually a chaser. A chaser that hits very, very hard. This also makes playing him MUCH riskier in mid lane. Not sure the buffs to True/Sandstorm will be enough to counteract that change to his pick frequency at high level, since he isn't especially amazing at sidelane.

:pred:, :shad:, :souls:: Meh.

:thun:: Nice buffs, but not what I wanted to see. I wanted to see a revert of the aura range nerf and a rebalance of Chain Lightning's damage and mana cost (ideally towards Dota2's numbers). I'll take this though.

:vind:: Lots and lots of people are really pissed about this, but I think it's a net gain. He was never picked up in February at high level play (except once). It means he's actually balancable now without suddenly shooting to autoban status. I don't think he's very good right now, but there's actually room to buff him without breaking the game.

It also opens up combo heroes to be picked in higher level play. Previously, safe lineups didn't care at all about Vindicator, and that's a huge reason why he was never picked up. It was also (one) reason why heroes like Panda was rarely picked up.

I mean, it sucks that his influence on drafting is gone, but oh well. I never thought the old passive was actually a good idea on a hero, as an aura. I like the idea of the ability and the effect it has, but put it on another hero as an actual castable ability, like Pugna's ward. Only it silences.

[Salem1]

Not everything has to be a grand sweeping rework in order to be considered a change.

I agree, but not everything needs to be nothing or a grand sweeping rework. The vast majority of changes shouldn't be. This patch will change nothing and I'm saying that having already taken into consideration that S2 could be doing this with ''small steps over a long period'' in mind. I see the same heroes that have always been flawed in some obvious way picked over and over and over and over now as I did after the frostwolf nerf patch and I doubt that's going to change at all with these sorts of patches.

Kraken+PR+Magmus+Cleanup won't faceroll my/the enemy team any less and respond with ''LOL DIS HEROES ARE BALANCED L2P'' when you remark about it and S2's balance policy isn't addressing this... that's really all I want to say. A step in the right direction is not good for anything unless you reach that direction... it's like getting a girl's number and then never using it.

[argnoferich]

Every nerf to HotBL is a very welcome & necessary nerf. Let them keep coming, maybe take down raw HP too. Thanks!

[Skyve]

If vindi can get +18 int, than tempest can land a 5 man ultimate ...

One of the biggest AoEs in the game, 6 second cooldown, 3 int per hero hit, 40 seconds bufftime.

Do a little bit of math, and maybe some playtesting...

[Anakha]

I agree, but not everything needs to be nothing or a grand sweeping rework. The vast majority of changes shouldn't be. This patch will change nothing and I'm saying that having already taken into consideration that S2 could be doing this with ''small steps over a long period'' in mind. I see the same heroes that have always been flawed in some obvious way picked over and over and over and over now as I did after the frostwolf nerf patch and I doubt that's going to change at all with these sorts of patches.

Kraken+PR+Magmus+Cleanup won't faceroll my/the enemy team any less and respond with ''LOL DIS HEROES ARE BALANCED L2P'' when you remark about it and S2's balance policy isn't addressing this... that's really all I want to say. A step in the right direction is not good for anything unless you reach that direction... it's like getting a girl's number and then never using it.

Impatience much.

[Salem1]

I'd argue that it's not impatience when the process could reasonably be done faster. That number you got? yeah let's say you call her, set up a date and arrive 5 hours late. I wouldn't call her impatient :p

[Brannock]

We've been getting balance patches every other week recently. How much faster are you expecting?

[Ogrim]

Time to ignore Vindicator or just nuke him down.

EU speaks truth. New Vindicator is total garbage.

They took silencer, a hybrid counter pick hero that could do big auto attack damage late game, and tried to turn him into a pure hard carry.

Why would anyone play a pure hard carry ranged int hero with no: escape, stun, slow or serious farm boost skill. Not to mention that he needs even more mana early game now than doctor repulsor to function.

And the aura nerf? Good lord... may as well have kept the perma int steal and gotten rid of the silence all together. What a worthless skill.

[DarkAgonizer]

One of the biggest AoEs in the game, 6 second cooldown, 3 int per hero hit, 40 seconds bufftime.

Do a little bit of math, and maybe some playtesting...

100 int stolen max can be imba in a 40 sec teamfight or Midwars (again)
I have an idea think 2 more skills for this new vindy call him his dark brother
and introduce him in the game Return the old vindy back profit from selling the new one to the public XD

[Salem1]

We've been getting balance patches every other week recently. How much faster are you expecting?

I'm not expecting the patches any faster. I was (until I realised it's not gonna happen) expecting real balance changes, not only insignificant tokens of improvement in these patches. If these patches were affecting the game in any notable way I wouldn't be posting this.

[Imjelly]

holy **** I hate the new vindi
that is all

edit: everything ogrim said

[Anakha]

I'd argue that it's not impatience when the process could reasonably be done faster. That number you got? yeah let's say you call her, set up a date and arrive 5 hours late. I wouldn't call her impatient :p

I could travel to any number of alternate dimensions and in none of them would you be qualified to make that kind of claim.

[Salem1]

Replying to every post I make with a no substance one-liner makes you so cool, Anakha. Why am I not qualified to ''make that kind of claim''?

[SirVH]

I kinda liked this patch. As someone said, any nerf to Hotbl is welcome, but still not enough. I really think that Andromeda and Shadowblade didn't need buffs, Artesia didn't need nerfs, Nomad and RA changes were perfect.

About Vindy: I like the direction they are taking. He's for sure weak now due to the tanky metagame, but he's on a good place to get some buffs and be a viable pick without breaking the game. Being a walking-screwing-your-combo was not a good design anyway.

But I would keep the part where he gained +int when someone dies near by. He won't be a main target anymore, that will help him to farm more, survive more, deal more damage and not be a silence whore.

[Tyrion_L]

WTF Maliken and friends!!!:
Totally ruined vindi.The most funny(and strong) passive is now garbage.Vindi overplayed in tournaments? need this shitie Nerf? gj man

[Juuto]

I threw up in my mouth a little bit at that Vindi rework.

[Skyve]

Hm... I wonder, but would it be fine if Vindi permanently stole 2 int from units that die while they have the debuff on them? :D

[skeloperch]

What REALLY rustled my jimmies this patch is the Artesia nerfs. I mean, she wasn't even that good. Now she's even squishier in the laning phase (not by much, but every point matters). I could care less about the Vindi rework, but nerfing Artesia is going too far.

Oh yeah, and the Vindi rework blew as well. Of all the spells, why change his Q and E? Those are the ones that needed the least amount of changes (instead of his long-ass cd ulti, and wonky damage steroid).

[andro15]

I have absolutely no idea why you guys are bashing Vindi. Go play him a couple of games, he's still an amazing carry. All they did was remove his pub status of support and redirected all his skills to maximize W damage output.

I'd like to point out also that vindi still shits on heroes like Pebbles mid. For pebbles to use his combo at level 2 he needs an extra 4 int from items, with W not aggroing the creep wave and shutting down his ability to combo until higher levels Vindi should win mid. (I'm gonna go and bet even a pebs/glacius combo won't be able to kill vindi/laning partner due to pebs not being able to use his 2 spells) Building Vindi tanky as he used to be still is the way to go.
Don't understimate 40AS (basically 2.75~ gloves of the swift)

[KeY533]

Alunas Deja Vu skill should activate its second state (there where a shadow is sent back) automatically after the bonus Movementspeed is over.

[Ekamo]

Alunas Deja Vu skill should activate its second state (there where a shadow is sent back) automatically after the bonus Movementspeed is over.

And by that give away your position every time you try to escape into fog with this? :P

Also, regarding Vindi rework, as many people figured it was a rework intended to change the design of the hero, not a rework to fix him being too weak/too strong.

[ElementUser]

And by that give away your position every time you try to escape into fog with this? :P

Also, regarding Vindi rework, as many people figured it was a rework intended to change the design of the hero, not a rework to fix him being too weak/too strong.

Second last iteration of Vindicator Rework had a charge-based E aura silence based on how many spellcasts he did.

It was something like 0.05/0.1/0.15/0.2 seconds per charge. Each Q and R spellcast gave something like 4 charges. Each W (autocast or manual cast) gave 1 charge. Each charge lasted for something like 4 seconds, individually timed & independent of each other. Oh and that E passive in the 2nd last iteration also gave attack speed like this one (forgot numbers), also based on charges.

That one had a better concept than this final iteration, IMO. Design change? Yes, ok. Does the design change fit in the game? Not right now, many heroes overshadow Vindicator.

[Reldnahc]

Second last iteration of Vindicator Rework had a charge-based E aura silence based on how many spellcasts he did.

It was something like 0.05/0.1/0.15/0.2 seconds per charge. Each Q and R spellcast gave something like 4 charges. Each W (autocast or manual cast) gave 1 charge. Each charge lasted for something like 4 seconds, individually timed & independent of each other. Oh and that E passive in the 2nd last iteration also gave attack speed like this one (forgot numbers), also based on charges.

That one had a better concept than this final iteration, IMO. Design change? Yes, ok. Does the design change fit in the game? Not right now, many heroes overshadow Vindicator.

So it was he silenced everything around him whenever he casted/attacked or built up charges for the duration of the silence when someone else casted?

Anyways, the design focus of the change was to give a harsh penalty for attacking him. As a hard carry, he doesn't want to get focused. Now they must choose between facing hard silences from trying to kill him or let him destroy everything in his path.

[Anakha]

^ second one.

[Launders]

Personally I think Vindi's aura in its previous state was disgustingly overpowered so I'm okay with that being gutted like a fish.

[argnoferich]

Being tanky is like a rule of thumb to win in this game. Amazing, so much for strategy !

I'm so baffled...

[skeloperch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQijNZUc2Ps&feature=BFa&list=SP749838EA905840A0&lf=list_related

Apparently, LoL's Electrician is named Irelia. /r/'ing someone with video talent to replace the Riot fags with DOGKaiser and Diva, and Irelia with Electrician/DM/Tremble.

[XFlame]

Oh God, a Rampage thread with SirVH posting in it.

[KeY533]

And by that give away your position every time you try to escape into fog with this? :P

Argh damn never thought about this part. xD
i guess you are right.:alun:


And i've to test the new Vindicator.. xD

[Gdemami]

because simply what I want is a serious discussion regarding Rampage on a competitive level. If you can't follow that easy guideline, feel free not to post.

I do not want to nitpick but if I take into account the rules you are asking to follow, you are breaking them yourself:



5. PLAYER SKILL IS IRRELEVANT

Player skill, or more specific, any types of in-game stats are useless indicators towards how well you understand balance. The value of one’s opinion is completely determined by the insight provided through their posts, not PSR/MMR. Calling out people for their stats is strictly prohibited within the confines of the balance forum. If you are losing an argument, do not resort to attacking the player (ad hominem), improve your argument instead.



"Competitive" play or not is irrelevant.


This is a core issue for many broken heroes and mechanics in HoN because you work on basis that if player skill can offset to a degree otherwise broken hero, all is fine. It is not, the hero is still imbalanced but possible workaround exist...

[Anakha]

I do not want to nitpick but if I take into account the rules you are asking to follow, you are breaking them yourself:



"Competitive" play or not is irrelevant.


This is a core issue for many broken heroes and mechanics in HoN because you work on basis that if player skill can offset to a degree otherwise broken hero, all is fine. It is not, the hero is still imbalanced but possible workaround exist...

YOUR skill is irrelevant, not competitive play. Way to miss the point.

[Gdemami]

Honestly he is almost boring to play on lower brackets because of how easy it is to win with him. However when it comes to countering him, that's not as tricky as you say it is.

If it isn't as tricky, why it is almost boring to play on lower brackets because of how easy it is to win with him?


Ramp, or hero alike, would not be picked for "pubstomping" if they weren't imbalanced.

[Gdemami]

YOUR skill is irrelevant, not competitive play. Way to miss the point.

I am not the one missing something here...

The argument "only competitive play matters" is the same as saying "Fred is uber leet thus he is right".

You just transferred the authority from yourself to Fred, but it is still the same fallacious argument from authority.


Bring arguments, not authorities...

[Anakha]

How on earth are we having this goddamn argument again?

If YOU can't play the hero to its theoretical potential, then YOU are at fault - nobody else. "competitive play" as an ideal represents a level of play where play is decided upon merits other than mechanical deficiency. And make no mistake, Rampage wins games based on the other team's mechanical deficiency and team composition disharmony.

[Gdemami]

How on earth are we having this goddamn argument again?

If YOU can't play the hero to its theoretical potential, then YOU are at fault - nobody else. "competitive play" as an ideal represents a level of play where play is decided upon merits other than mechanical deficiency. And make no mistake, Rampage wins games based on the other team's mechanical deficiency and team composition disharmony.

Probably as long as it takes you to realize how false your argument is.

"Competitive play" represents play style, a type of game play but that does not imply balance. There are various kind of play, not competitive play only, it is not ideal game play either. It is just a flavor.

That means that some heroes, despite being imbalanced are not picked in competitive play because the hero does not represent desirable qualities, or their level, for this specific game play.


Fact that rampage is not picked in competitive play means that rampage is not picked in competitive play - no more, no less. Any further implication based on this fact are fallacious.



Hope this helped...

[Anakha]

Pseudo-intellectualism. Lovely.

"competitive play" does not represent a distinctly different style, because the aim of the game is the same at all ****ing levels of play, TO WIN.

Competitive play is simply an extreme form of this, where every theoretical and actual advantage is utilized in order TO WIN. There is NO distinction, even with your retarded pseudo-intellectual vomit.
If you can't win with the hero at a higher level of play (and make no mistake, this is not a lateral difference), then there are reasons why. If the hero is not even picked, it means that there is a roadblock, perceived or actual, to this hero's effort on the outcome of the game in order to achieve a win. If he was so overpowered, then why don't they pick him? Do you really think they aren't aware of Rampage and what he can do? Competitive play's only goal is to win. If Rampage is SO overpowered, why doesn't this happen even there?

[Gdemami]

Pseudo-intellectualism. Lovely.

"competitive play" does not represent a distinctly different style, because the aim of the game is the same at all ****ing levels of play, TO WIN.

Competitive play is simply an extreme form of this, where every theoretical and actual advantage is utilized in order TO WIN. There is NO distinction, even with your retarded pseudo-intellectual vomit.
If you can't win with the hero at a higher level of play (and make no mistake, this is not a lateral difference), then there are reasons why. If the hero is not even picked, it means that there is a roadblock, perceived or actual, to this hero's effort on the outcome of the game in order to achieve a win. If he was so overpowered, then why don't they pick him? Do you really think they aren't aware of Rampage and what he can do? Competitive play's only goal is to win. If Rampage is SO overpowered, why doesn't this happen even there?

No difference, no distinction, yet extreme?


You are mistaking viability for balance.


Rampage might not be viable for "competitive play" but that does not make him balanced nor underpowered. He is still very viable(and imbalanced) for non-competitive play, because there are indeed different plays than competitive one.

The disparity of hero usage among different plays and game modes proves existence of different desired qualities for each play.




Getting off a high horse can significantly improve reasoning ability and judgement...

[Ekamo]

No difference, no distinction, yet extreme?


You are mistaking viability for balance.


Rampage might not be viable for "competitive play" but that does not make him balanced nor underpowered. He is still very viable(and imbalanced) for non-competitive play, because there are indeed different plays than competitive one.

The disparity of hero usage among different plays and game modes proves existence of different desired qualities for each play.




Getting off a high horse can significantly improve reasoning ability and judgement...


Hence, this (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=393760)



8. WHAT WE AIM TO BALANCE FOR
The game is balanced around Forest of Caldavar 5vs5 Normal Mode.

Competitive play is our guideline for balance. Pub experiences, no matter what the level of play it is, is virtually completely irrelevant unless no competitive statistics on the hero is available (new hero, heroes that never receives play etc.).

[Gdemami]

Hence, this (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=393760)

I am not sure what point you are trying to make... that you officially aim for imbalanced game focused on specific play only?

Any particular reason for such approach?

[Skyve]

Funny, wasn't the regular custom to ban agility heroes, with the occasional int hero tossed in?

Nowadays it seems like the focus has shifted strongly on the southern part of the hero selection screen :D

[changlingbob]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make... that you officially aim for imbalanced game focused on specific play only?

Any particular reason for such approach?

You appear to be missing the entire point. We balance assuming perfect play. If you don't assume perfect play, then you can't balance at all; someone who's crap at the most OP hero in the game won't beat someone who's competent at a mid-tier hero, who won't beat a perfect player on the worst hero in the pool. As with all science, all external variables should be held static, in this case the variables are the players.

[Gdemami]

You appear to be missing the entire point. We balance assuming perfect play. If you don't assume perfect play, then you can't balance at all; someone who's crap at the most OP hero in the game won't beat someone who's competent at a mid-tier hero, who won't beat a perfect player on the worst hero in the pool. As with all science, all external variables should be held static, in this case the variables are the players.

That is one part of balancing theory - the "mechanical" balance, the number crunching. You still need to test it out in real conditions though and real conditions are not represented by "competitive play" only as pointed out above.

[changlingbob]

Right, but the bit that needs testing is the last bit, what you test is the subjective 'feeling OP'; even something isn't OP, you want to then nerf it for good game design. But 'feeling OP' isn't 'being OP'. The only thing that's missing from the "perfect competitive play" theoretical model and requires testing is weird, unanticipated interactions that only show up with people hitting the system with a stick. Things can be objectively balanced up to emergent strategies.

[Gdemami]

Right, but the bit that needs testing is the last bit, what you test is the subjective 'feeling OP'; even something isn't OP, you want to then nerf it for good game design. But 'feeling OP' isn't 'being OP'. The only thing that's missing from the "perfect competitive play" theoretical model and requires testing is weird, unanticipated interactions that only show up with people hitting the system with a stick. Things can be objectively balanced up to emergent strategies.

There is no objectivity out of numerical balance and since the game allows high number of variables, it will always be subjective.


Are you actually making any point...?

[changlingbob]

how is numerical balance not totally objective?

variables are not subjective, variables are variable

subjectivity is 'i feel that electrician's purge is too strong', whereas we can objectively observe how strong electricians purge is by comparing it to nullfire and to other available slows and suchlike and consider it in the context of the hero. the point at which this becomes potentially non-objective is when electrician is put in the wild and someone finds an excellent use for purge that people didn't think of ahead of time

are you trying to be willfully ignorant, or are you actually incapable of understanding

[Anakha]

"There is no objectivity out of numerical balance"

/post

[Gdemami]

how is numerical balance not totally objective?

variables are not subjective, variables are variable

subjectivity is 'i feel that electrician's purge is too strong', whereas we can objectively observe how strong electricians purge is by comparing it to nullfire and to other available slows and suchlike and consider it in the context of the hero. the point at which this becomes potentially non-objective is when electrician is put in the wild and someone finds an excellent use for purge that people didn't think of ahead of time

are you trying to be willfully ignorant, or are you actually incapable of understanding

1) I said "out of numerical balance", I do agree that numbers are "objective".
2) Two people watching same thing do not necessarily see the same.

[changlingbob]

the entire game is numbers.

[Orchest]

If it has an effect, the effect can be measured, if it can be measured, it can be compared.

If it doesn't have an effect, then it doesn't matter.

[Reldnahc]

So bored contemplation. What if marchers were given to heroes? Thoughts on the effects compared to other items that have had obtainment changes(no secret shop, free courier, 1 stack wards).

[changlingbob]

Icefrog Just released a self-designated 'minor balance patch'. That patch touched 47 heroes including a new SotM effect granting a spell and a complete spell rework as long as a multitude of numbers changes, 9 items and a bunch of creep abilities and suchlike. Not to compare to That Other Game, but its interesting context.

On the other hand, Riot remakes champions every other week. This genre doesn't know what the **** its doing.

[Hsssh]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=3923851

[Mediocre]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=3923851

ITS A TRAP! :emer:

[Skyve]

Harkon's, Geo's, Hellflower, Posthaste, Symbol of Rage and Shroud on Puppet Master.

And 4.6k gold.

Dare I say Genjuro?

Edit: Also Armadon has 2 bananas.

[Juuto]

Basically the new HoN metagame is finding the most underrated and underused heroes and discovering just how broken they are.

[GregerMoek]

Which I think isn't a bad thing actually.

[Skyve]

How is a hardcarry carrying lategame broken?

[GregerMoek]

Harkon's pretty bad item, just saying.

Oh wait.

[Lariatoooo]

Puppet uselless after nerfs

[Skyve]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, pick that Succubus you fool.

[Juuto]

I dunno, I felt that PM was impossible to stop. His farming capabilities got way too extreme way too early. I mean, I think that happens with a lot hard carries, but the other Hard Carries carry a lot more risk to them than Puppet Master does. Puppet has decent early/mid game damage in team fights, he has two good CCish spells, and he has a nice crit splash.

Other Hard Carries farm as ridiculous at the same point in which that PM probably did, but I feel like normal ones are usually still very, very vulnerable in team fights while Puppet Master doesn't have that issue. I think he's way too safe of a pick for a Hard Carry.

[Skyve]

Well, Armadon had no magic armor, no shrunken head to stop puppet.

And compare Puppet to what a Magebane does lategame, or Chronos. Those heroes take apart whole teams, but they are also ment to do that. Especially considering Puppet was outgeared. There basically was nothing he could have changed in his items, safe for maybe selling boots for a doombringer (not srs).

[Juuto]

Well, Armadon had no magic armor, no shrunken head to stop puppet.

And compare Puppet to what a Magebane does lategame, or Chronos. Those heroes take apart whole teams, but they are also ment to do that. Especially considering Puppet was outgeared. There basically was nothing he could have changed in his items, safe for maybe selling boots for a doombringer (not srs).

I disagree.

I remember clearly a match with TDM with Hag as their carry versus Magebane. Moon was streaming it, and basically what TDM said was "We have the mindset that we need to finish this early versus Magebane, but we don't."

And it's completely true seeing as how earlier Tralf lost late game to a Hag even when he had Doombringer. Magebane probably is good for taking advantage of a team while they are down, but late vs late, I don't think Magebane is any better than a Hag in effectiveness. Everyone could see for themselves how weak late game Magebane actually was that game. Tralf was 100% maxed on items and he still struggled versus Hag and eventually lost.

Also, both Magebane and Chronos still bring a huge risk towards them as squishy melee carries. Puppet has the safety of range. Chronos is forced to build survivability before he starts team fighting or he's just dead meat and even if he survives, his damage will be mediocre. Magebane is so reliant on being fed to start carrying a lot less risk to him. Puppet? He's ranged. He can keep enemies away from him with two CCish spells, and he has an ult that deals massive damage to a single target.

Not only that but look at the items that Era managed to Hard Carry with on Puppet and compare that to a melee Hard Carry. The fact that Puppet can make amazing use of Geos, Hellflower, Harkons, Whispering/Symbol, and Shroud/Genjuro and still carry so heavily... With Puppet's farming ability, I don't see how he's not broken when the items he can get have so much utility while providing him so much damage.

[Skyve]

The only reason puppet was able to not invest into defensive items (Shrunken Head) was because his team was built in a way that allowed for enough distraction.

That Magebane is going to have a tough time outcarrying a hag can be explained by the fact that Magebane relies on his mobility, wich is worth little against a carry that has just as much of that.

(+Hag most likely got items like Hellflower, which further improved her mobility compared to Magebanes)

[Juuto]

The only reason puppet was able to not invest into defensive items (Shrunken Head) was because his team was built in a way that allowed for enough distraction.

That Magebane is going to have a tough time outcarrying a hag can be explained by the fact that Magebane relies on his mobility, wich is worth little against a carry that has just as much of that.

(+Hag most likely got items like Hellflower, which further improved her mobility compared to Magebanes)

And I don't think Puppet having one less item to be magic immune would've been big enough of a deal. Shrunken is an 'option' for Puppet while for melee hard carries either Null or Shrunken seem like necessities.

Compare attacking with range versus being a Magebane who relies so much on mobility to do damage, Magebane has it 100x harder. Ranged carries having stuns, slows, immobilizes, and silences... I really won't be surprised if people just end up stop picking Magebane altogether. And of course the Hag went Hellflower.

Melee hard carries outside of Magebane suffer because ranged carries have so much to stop them. And even Magebane suffers to being 'maybe' an equal to the likes of Hag. Melee hard carries just don't have those ridiculous utility items which also them a major boost in utility. Puppet breaks the mold because he's ranged, he's intellect, and he's a hard carry. All those ridiculous utility items that semi carries have access to are accessible to Puppet too, and he carries harder, much, much harder and he snowballs faster.

Overall, I think Puppet is too safe of a pick for a hard carry and his ability to use utility items to hard carry is broken. I think in the very near future, we'll be seeing a LOT more of Puppet Master either banned or picked.

[Hsssh]

Puppet cant do **** against early push due his aoe being tied to his auto attack damage. Thats his weakness.

[Juuto]

Puppet cant do **** against early push due his aoe being tied to his auto attack damage. Thats his weakness.

And that weakness probably isn't weak enough since his team mates can cover that for him.

I mean, every hero has some weakness, but some just aren't balanced in regards to their strengths vs their weaknesses.

[Brannock]

What was this game that Puppet dominated in? I was busy tonight and couldn't keep up with casting.

[Juuto]

What was this game that Puppet dominated in? I was busy tonight and couldn't keep up with casting.

The first game of Fnatic vs TDM in the CSN finals.

[Anakha]

That game where Magebane lost to a Hag, was this a fair while ago where Tralf sold his Runed Axe for a Doombringer, and the Valk on their team had almost nothing?

If so, there's a lot more to Magebane losing than being "outcarried by a Hag".

[Hsssh]

And that weakness probably isn't weak enough since his team mates can cover that for him.

So you are complaining about hero that needs team support? Ok.

[Orchest]

Reposting from reception thread because my genius should be known by all (also, go and TUP Trickster please, the game needs something like him):

The Nomad changes were fine in principle, but really didn't go far enough in either direction.

The spam on Mirage was only part of the problem, the rest stem from the fact that the hero has almost nothing else going from him. The buff to ms in sandstorm is nice, but again only partially addresses his issues.

What is needed on Nomad is a comprehensive look at how Mirage and Truestrike are meant to function, and what the hero is most ideally meant to be doing. At the moment Mirage is still just a nuke that makes you invisible - that combination is/was attractive for spam, and offers some utility for positioning against horrible teams that don't invest in truesight. The hero has always been built around stupid physical nukes that can scale to 1hits quite early with farm.

None of this really gets you around the fact that Nomad is balls easy to shut down. Mirage strike was intended to be an ability that tricked opponents. It's no secret that Nomad had an epically short release cycle, and while this gave him a lot more flavour than most heroes, it also meant that Mirage/Truestrike were released with huge internal imbalance, and Mirage doesn't really fulfill its intended design function.

I am strongly in favour of increasing the amount this hero uses images as a means of increasing the amount of mind games he's meant to be built around. If I were to redesign Nomad, he'd look like this:

Sandstorm: No change.

Mirage/Truestrike:
In addition to current effects, leaves behind an uncontrollable illusion at the point of origin that chases and attacks enemies for 4 seconds.
Mirage Strike's illusion also attacks enemies for 4 seconds.
Illusions no longer proc Wanderer.
No longer resets when you get a kill.
Invis on Mirage set to 4 seconds at all levels.

Wanderer:
Remove build up of charges on attacks (my god these are stupid).
Activatable: 6 second CD, 40 mana, CD resets on kill/assist within 600 units:
On use, teleports you to targetted illusion.
Wanderer passive now adds charges based on teleportation (blinks, tps, internal teleport) as well as walking distance.

Ultimate:
Cooldown increased by 15 seconds at all levels.
On use, leaves an illusion at cast point that casts the ultimate and remains for 4 seconds and has AI as per strikes illusions.
You become invulnerable for 0.25 seconds after the cast, and invisible for 4 seconds.


I've toyed with other ideas, but stuck on this one at great length. In terms of flavour, he now suits his back story (fits with the SW hunting thing) as well as his concept and theme. His abilities would also function intuitively and he'd have potential beyond pubstomp 1hitting and lanespam.

[Belhelmel]

:vindi: wtf happened here, please tell me you are monitoring your accomplishments with this change, and are not just padding yourself on the shoulders for a "job well done"....

this rework is wrong, and I am sorely gonna miss watching vindicator chases and enemy team pondering about how to setup a clash around this counterpick, and it seems to me some of the real action we watch on the big scene, is gonna suffer from this, namely because vindi is such a unique type hero, that is now, probably, never going to be picked?

[XFlame]

This isn't 'our' change, fyi.

[Zilrax]

This is our nightmare.

[XFlame]

I can only hope that they'll implement Vindi's aura later on back into the game, much like how they promised to do with other skills that they removed. But they said we'd be getting back Krakens old ult onto another hero and I have yet to see that happening.

[Orchest]

Hurry up and acknowledge my genius!

Also the Vindi nerf shows how seriously this forum is taken.

[XFlame]

Idk really, I've read some of Brannocks posts and I kinda agree with what he's been saying.

[Juuto]

That game where Magebane lost to a Hag, was this a fair while ago where Tralf sold his Runed Axe for a Doombringer, and the Valk on their team had almost nothing?

If so, there's a lot more to Magebane losing than being "outcarried by a Hag".

Of course Tralf dying in the enemy jungle like 80 minutes in is why they lost, but if Magebane actually was that "omega hard carry", he would've won. With all the items he had + a Doom, he should've been able to win that easily like faceroll style at that point in the game. It's not that they lost, it's that even 80 minutes in they still struggled their asses off versus a Hag while Magebane was maxed out on items.

I don't think many non-tanky melee DPS carries stand any chance of fitting in this scene while all the good items are catered to ranged carries. Heroes like Hag getting good carry damage and survivability out of things like Hellflower and Hex sounds screwed up to me. A hero that hard carries while having a Perplex, a Hex, Puppet Show, Puppeteer's Hold, and Invisibility/AoE Splash Burst/Slow doesn't feel balanced at all.

[Skyve]

It's not that they lost, it's that even 80 minutes in they still struggled their asses off versus a Hag while Magebane was maxed out on items.Well, so did Puppetmaster. Considering he almost died in the end to Arma + EW (or was it Valk?), and just barely managed to get one Symbol of Rage hit in to heal himself up...

[GregerMoek]

He used Puppet Show to make Armadon's attacks non lethal and afterwards proceeded to Pwn him. It almost works as a Shallow Grave in certain situations, very strong skill.

[Antimodus]

This isn't 'our' change, fyi.
This is our nightmare.

Seconded

[changlingbob]

I have achieved what Anakha could not.

TIME TO QUIT

[N`Hydrolisk]

Geomancer's SotM ult is awesomeeeeeee.

[XFlame]

Tbh I'm surprised to see that Deadwood still hasn't gotten a balance thread. I know he's slated for a rework, but he's been up for one for well over a year now, I doubt it's ever going to happen.

[Skyve]

DW rework was scrapped.

[Anakha]

I actually can't handle playing pubs anymore. I put myself to a 1-drink minimum to ever play HoN, and it still does my head in at how severely retarded pub players are nowadays.
Every game has either a Ra just spamming his stun at the lane to mindlessly get CK, no matter what lane he's in (no pretense at actually lasthitting, just spam the wave for 1-2 ck every wave) or players that just literally do nothing. Not even fail at skills, just not even use them and just afk in no-mans land, out of exp range just doing nothing for 15min.

Sad thing is, I don't like DotA2 (feels like wading through syrup), LoL is meh and the rest are clones in some fashion - so until **** improves, I really doubt I'll ever play HoN pubs again.

[Blaity]

I actually can't handle playing pubs anymore. I put myself to a 1-drink minimum to ever play HoN, and it still does my head in at how severely retarded pub players are nowadays.
Every game has either a Ra just spamming his stun at the lane to mindlessly get CK, no matter what lane he's in (no pretense at actually lasthitting, just spam the wave for 1-2 ck every wave) or players that just literally do nothing. Not even fail at skills, just not even use them and just afk in no-mans land, out of exp range just doing nothing for 15min.

Sad thing is, I don't like DotA2 (feels like wading through syrup), LoL is meh and the rest are clones in some fashion - so until **** improves, I really doubt I'll ever play HoN pubs again.

engage on the ra when he uses the stun on the creeps, just like when your ganking soulstealer

[Zilrax]

The Ra was on our team. He pushed the lane all the way to the tower repeatedly against a hammer nymph lane.

[Reldnahc]

I just find it hilarious that Diva's hero, Drunken Master, was originally designed to not use mana but it was scrapped because of how retarded that idea is. Yet we still have Ra from Nome.

[GregerMoek]

Yeah, it was scrapped due to excessive complaining about that mechanic, I guess we didn't have time to complain about this one though.

Also, I'd guess all pubs (even Dota, dota2 and LoL) has "retards" playing.

[Mediocre]

Atleast there are no russians in HoN anymore. That alone makes the HoN pub-experience alot better than in dota2.

[changlingbob]

17:32 < changlingbob> someone eneds to explain to s2
17:33 < changlingbob> why ursa is not str

[Juuto]

I actually can't handle playing pubs anymore. I put myself to a 1-drink minimum to ever play HoN, and it still does my head in at how severely retarded pub players are nowadays.
Every game has either a Ra just spamming his stun at the lane to mindlessly get CK, no matter what lane he's in (no pretense at actually lasthitting, just spam the wave for 1-2 ck every wave) or players that just literally do nothing. Not even fail at skills, just not even use them and just afk in no-mans land, out of exp range just doing nothing for 15min.

Sad thing is, I don't like DotA2 (feels like wading through syrup), LoL is meh and the rest are clones in some fashion - so until **** improves, I really doubt I'll ever play HoN pubs again.

I hit 1700 and the pub experience is even worse. They have bigger egos and sadly, that actually leads to worse item choices and worse skillbuilds but this time you can't tell them their build is wrong because they're "1760". Innocent bad players have morphed into egotistical douchebags who can't play the game worth ****.

[XFlame]

So, Gunblade. Potential? He seems rather bland to me.

[changlingbob]

So, Gunblade. Potential? He seems rather bland to me.

Shield that scales off agi!

Hookshot that gives -armour as well!

Some steroid for being close to people!

A slow!

Yup, bland and retarded

[Reldnahc]

Gunblade doesn't seem bad nor great. Just meh.

[skeloperch]

Gunblade is my favorite hero since Salforis. Assuming Lethal Range adds 50/60 extra damage at max rank, he's gonna be golden. A ranged hero that wants to be played like a melee, but lacks all of the benefits melees git (Cleaver, FWS, HotbL, and etc). It's my dream hero design come true (minus the shield).

[Lethe]

initial impression purely from spotlight is underpowered

[man_guy]

I liked the leaked ultimate where he'd take 30/40/50% reduced damage from all but his ultimate's target. :D

[Orchest]

I liked the- oh wait. I don't like this hero much at all...

[Mediocre]

Could be the worst piece of **** concept we've seen so far.

Even the animations look terrible. Not to mention the spotlight video *shrugs*

[MEGATRON]

DW does not need a rework period. We need early game gankers that taper off late game. Not all heroes should be late game. Not all heroes should be early game.

[Orchest]

That's not really why DW needs a rework, he needs a rework because he's a one trick pony who does his trick significantly worse than quite a few other heroes. Pebbles is always the concrete example, but you'd be pressed to find a good reason to take him over Fayde since her buff as well. I guess he sideline solos a little better, but it's not often lane setups will support any of these heroes sideline soloing.

If you want to stretch the analysis, he also competes with Gauntlet, Tundra, Dampeer, Devo and Pharoah, though not quite as directly, and is substantially less desirable than probably 3 of them, while the other two offer niche capabilities he can't replicate.

So, straight out worse than Pebbles, Fayde, Gauntlet. Worse on balance as a ganker than Tundra and Pharoah. Probably roughly on par with Devo and Dampeer. Yet he can't be buffed because his numbers are already too big, and he's too derp to add any more to.

Hence, time for a partial remake.

[Skyve]

Deadwood is useable solely for the reason that his ultimate provides the -20% strength debuff, which means that part of his damage is often not actually seen. Also means he isn't straight out worse than all those heroes mentioned by that guy above me, because he fills a niche.
And then there's the part where he does physical damage and disable, which is a two-edged sword, since it means he completely sucks if he can't establish an early dominance.

Anyhow, on to Gunblade: A presumed 600 range carry with a lot of tools to apply damage is already strong, no matter what. Valkyrie for instance carries simply with that - her ability to actually attack someone. Same goes for Flint. With that, Gunblade could already have been a decent carry, without even considering the potential of his third skill. Which is why I think he's largely "overdesigned".

[Ninaran]

Does this Gunblade guy really have the attack sound from Flint's ult? Or was it a placeholder in the spotlight?

[changlingbob]

Gunblade is my favorite hero since Salforis. Assuming Lethal Range adds 50/60 extra damage at max rank, he's gonna be golden. A ranged hero that wants to be played like a melee, but lacks all of the benefits melees git (Cleaver, FWS, HotbL, and etc). It's my dream hero design come true (minus the shield).

lacks all of the benefits melee heroes get, apart from 600 range and a shield that scales off of his attacking stat

[changlingbob]

Could be the worst piece of **** concept we've seen so far.

Even the animations look terrible. Not to mention the spotlight video *shrugs*

19:15 < changlingbob> GUNBLADE
19:15 < changlingbob> his GUNS have BLADES
19:15 < changlingbob> best hero design

[Lethe]

Does this Gunblade guy really have the attack sound from Flint's ult? Or was it a placeholder in the spotlight?

it's a placeholder, confirmed by viole

[Hsssh]

It'll be down to numbers but i don't like that he could work with melee or very low attack range and yet he has 600.

[changlingbob]

but he has GUNS on his BLADES

or maybe the other way around

and a shield scaling off agi!

[R0XAS]

Gunblade is poor in design.

[Zerazar]

I like Gunblade. I think his steroid is interesting.

I wish they hadn't screwed the pooch that bad with Gemini, I liked his steroid too (his E, not his R).

[Mediocre]

19:15 < changlingbob> GUNBLADE
19:15 < changlingbob> his GUNS have BLADES
19:15 < changlingbob> best hero design

Pity he doesnt actually use his blades. ;<



Im afraid s2 went full retard on this one.... you NEVER go full retard.

[pewpewstar]

His skills seem all over the place

[Zilrax]

Damn it, why couldn't he be Gunflail? His flail has a dozen gunbarrels sticking out of the flail head so he fires while he swings it. It's just as silly but at least it hasn't been done to death.

[Mangle]

Lord salforis has a nuke that costs 50 mana and it has a cd the lengh of its duration 5 seconds that heals half his hp and increases movement speed... If thats balanced then we may as well make deadwoods ult a spammable "q" move. On top of that its impossible to time bottle charges cuz og his third move whish is a constant dot that has the radius of temps ult. nerf plz

[XFlame]

Lets nerf a hero because he does well during the laning phase.

Sounds legit.

[Tedde]

Time to nerf bloodhunter.

[XFlame]

Tbh Bloodhunter is a fairly mediocre laner. His only strength lies in the fact that he can negate a shitton of harassment thanks to Feast, but that's all, really. He can't really beat the lane, he's just a hero that can farm in relative peace.

[Hubaris]

Tbh Bloodhunter is a fairly mediocre laner. His only strength lies in the fact that he can negate a shitton of harassment thanks to Feast, but that's all, really. He can't really beat the lane, he's just a hero that can farm in relative peace.

Can farm in relative peace until :lord: shows up.

[Ekamo]

Decided to remove a part out of the new Rampage thread since I on a second thought do not want to make people too focused on this aspect in particular.


This thread, just as all other threads, should mainly be focused from a competitive play standpoint. Note: Not the competitive scene as of now, since they aren't always the most reliable sources to tell what is too strong and what is not. I am separating competitive play and the competitive scene in order to avoid posts like "he has never been picked up, therefore he is too weak." Both might be true, but it doesn't necessarily mean there is a correlation between the two. For further discussion regarding this, use Balance Dump (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=344261).

Discuss the part I edited out.

[Mediocre]

Uhm, so you made a new thread....

I dont see any good balance discussion to come out of this.

Rampage needs some kind of rework, which makes me belive such thread belongs in another sub-forum.

[PzKw]

Deadwood is useable solely for the reason that his ultimate provides the -20% strength debuff, which means that part of his damage is often not actually seen. Also means he isn't straight out worse than all those heroes mentioned by that guy above me, because he fills a niche.
And then there's the part where he does physical damage and disable, which is a two-edged sword, since it means he completely sucks if he can't establish an early dominance.
I could have thrown Panda in TBH, or Rampage, but then you're getting tenuous. Both of them do the Physical-Physical suite better in most cases. On the flipside of the coin, a fair proportion of the heroes already mentioned disable through immunity with Superior-Magic abilities.

I acknowledge that the -STR is something not replicated, but like so many things in this game, it's completely underdone. Rather than being the centerpiece of the skill and the hero, the hero is built around batshit physical numbers. By virtue of the batshit physical numbers, the -STR can't be given the pride of place it deserves.

[Skyve]

Well, the first time S2 was talking about a DW remake I was kinda hoping they'd remove the damage from his ult and change it to -50% strenght...
Not like that'd ever happen.

[XFlame]

I wouldn't mind a rework either. As much as I love one shotting people with his punch, he relies way too much on his ult to gank people. His options are a little limited once its down.

[Hsssh]

Last hitting creeps from half hp with tree and hatchet is also a bit stupid.

Every time i remember suggested rework for his Q into healing reduction i wish it had happened. Would help to counter healer line ups without going to the extremes of Salforis ultimate.

[Skyve]

I wouldn't mind a rework either. As much as I love one shotting people with his punch, he relies way too much on his ult to gank people. His options are a little limited once its down.

Deadwood can gank most supports once he gets a PK by using Grasp+Log, so I don't really see your point.

[skeloperch]

Deadwood can gank most supports once he gets a PK by using Grasp+Log, so I don't really see your point.

Devo can gank supports with Pkey + Rot. I don't see your point.

I still love the idea of Gunblade, minus the shield. They should've replaced the shield with a skill that involves using his gun's blades HURRDURRHURR. It feels like false advertising when Gunblade doesn't use his gunblades.

[Skyve]

Devo can gank supports with Pkey + Rot. I don't see your point.

That's because you don't read.

[skeloperch]

That's because you don't read.

That's because you lack reading comprehension.


Anyways, Gunblade's ulti has too long of a cooldown, in my opinion. 90 seconds for a 1 second stun, 500 range, -3 armor, 100 damage nuke? So bad. Should be rescaled to 80/70/60.

[NANANYANCAT_]

80/70/60?

That hero is crap. With a better uli is should be much better. Its more like 50/40/30

[skeloperch]

80/70/60?

That hero is crap. With a better uli is should be much better. Its more like 50/40/30

We don't want a ranged carry to have a low cooldown stun, even if it's their ultimate. It never turns out well. That doesn't mean, however, that his ulti has to have such horrendously long cooldown. Perhaps, though, 80/65/50 would be a better option.

I also feel that his W and E are decently weak. He has to get over 240 agility to cap his shield (which caps at 550 damage). While 550 damage block isn't anything to scoff at... 240 agility. Who gets that much agility besides Shadow Blade or Night Hound?

[Lethe]

As a self-cast shield, W is quite strong. Remember that the shield absorbs post-mitigation damage. Crunch some practical numbers and you'll find it holds its own.

As for E, I find the concept of a steroid that only applies to heroes incredibly strange, afaik this is the first in either dota or HoN. So naturally I'm not a huge fan. However all its weaknesses are basically countered by it being so retardedly strong with geo.

[man_guy]

As for E, I find the concept of a steroid that only applies to heroes incredibly strange, afaik this is the first in either dota or HoN. So naturally I'm not a huge fan.How do you feel about Spectre?

[Reldnahc]

As a self-cast shield, W is quite strong. Remember that the shield absorbs post-mitigation damage. Crunch some practical numbers and you'll find it holds its own.

As for E, I find the concept of a steroid that only applies to heroes incredibly strange, afaik this is the first in either dota or HoN. So naturally I'm not a huge fan. However all its weaknesses are basically countered by it being so retardedly strong with geo.

:noma:'s Wanderer

[Lethe]

bleh. good calls.

concerning both desolate and wanderer though, they are extremely powerful skills, imo more so than Gunblade's E. E is great with geos, outside of that, it is good, but imo not good enough to warrant 'only trigger on heroes'. I expected a reduced version, similar to Viper's nethertoxin.


But again, the boost to image dps alone is probably enough to warrant it being only single target.

[Juuto]

I still believe in the near future, everyone will be complaining about how OP Puppet is.

[skeloperch]

So far it seems that Gun Blade is really weak, but that's from my personal experience, and I haven't had a match all day that wasn't full of utter retards (Devourers hooking *****es out of Draconis' fire, Pharaohs farming creeps in team fights, a Zephyr who would never ulti until the fight was nearly over). Perhaps it's just that Match Making seems to be full of dead weight recently, either that, or I just attract noobs like a magnet.

Q: Pretty good, but should be changed to 95 damage at max rank, per bullet.
W: In my experience, this has been one of the worst abilities. If I level it up, I have no lane control. If I don't max it, I'm vulnerable to all sorts of wankery.
E: Pretty weak, especially considering that you'll never get it's max damage without blowing up.
Ulti: One of the worse ulties in game. Pharaoh's is better in almost every way (Cooldown, damage, range, AoE damage). I feel that the -armor is tacked on, and should be removed so that they can lower the cool down of the ulti (30 seconds at all ranks sounds fine).

Just my opinion, though. He doesn't have very much going for him. He tries too hard to be like Valkyrie and Silhouette, but can't fill either of their shoes. The only real difference is that Gunblade opts out to be tankier, and trades an escape mechanism for just eating damage.

[Lethe]

I doubt he will ever see competitive play as of current incarnation.

But goddamn what a pub smasher.

[Reldnahc]

I still believe in the near future, everyone will be complaining about how OP Puppet is.

Despite being a design anomaly of being a hard carry with strong cc, he relies exclusively on his auto attack for damage meaning he has a harder time early on compared to carries with nukes. Plus he was nerfed quite heavily not too long ago, but I know you have a disdain for the hero.

[Hsssh]

As a self-cast shield, W is quite strong. Remember that the shield absorbs post-mitigation damage. Crunch some practical numbers and you'll find it holds its own.

All stupid jokes about Guns with blades asides thats the only thing that i dislike about Gunblade.

It scales with agi, his primary attribute.
It gives +ms, ms bonus stays even when shield is destroyed.
Low cost and relative short CD(8sec active vs 18 seconds cd) will probably allow him to spam it for traveling once he gets few items.

Oh and not sure why slow has to be physical on his Q.

[Blaity]

dw is the one of the few perfect heros

please dont ever change him, he is definately one of the most enjoyable heros to play hands down

hes not too heavy and not too light, hes kellogs just right

[Mediocre]

dw is the one of the few perfect heros

please dont ever change him, he is definately one of the most enjoyable heros to play hands down

hes not too heavy and not too light, hes kellogs just right

He is basically a walking ultimate, just like fayde. After he has blown his ultimate he is pretty much useless in teamfights unless he has a bkb or something, cause he will get cc'd and die instantly.

The hero, just like fayde, is such a nobrainer-ultimate-ganker.

Unlike heroes like pyro, gauntlet and witchslayer they are pretty much useless in teamfights once they have blown their ultimates.

Both DW and fayde are designed too get alot of kills early game and make the enemy team gimped and cc at 15. If they fail to do that, they are just dead-weight to the team. The same could be applied to nomad, but atleast he scales somewhat with items.

Anyway, I think he is a terrible design concept.

[changlingbob]

Going back to my facetious comment when the GUNBLADE (HIS GUN HAS BLADES) (henceforth G(HGHB)) spotlight came out;

Given the last two heroes released have used shields, one scaling off primary attribute and one scaling off of non-autoattack damage, is it time to look at moraxus and give him a slightly less pants ulti? I may be the odd one out here, but I feel the rest of what he has is not terrible but let down by an entirely lackluster ultimate when you consider his role.

[Stimmo]

Going back to my facetious comment when the GUNBLADE (HIS GUN HAS BLADES) (henceforth G(HGHB)) spotlight came out;

Given the last two heroes released have used shields, one scaling off primary attribute and one scaling off of non-autoattack damage, is it time to look at moraxus and give him a slightly less pants ulti? I may be the odd one out here, but I feel the rest of what he has is not terrible but let down by an entirely lackluster ultimate when you consider his role.

agree 100%. I love the hero but like you said., his ulti is totally underpowered.

[Juuto]

He is basically a walking ultimate, just like fayde. After he has blown his ultimate he is pretty much useless in teamfights unless he has a bkb or something, cause he will get cc'd and die instantly.

The hero, just like fayde, is such a nobrainer-ultimate-ganker.

Unlike heroes like pyro, gauntlet and witchslayer they are pretty much useless in teamfights once they have blown their ultimates.

Both DW and fayde are designed too get alot of kills early game and make the enemy team gimped and cc at 15. If they fail to do that, they are just dead-weight to the team. The same could be applied to nomad, but atleast he scales somewhat with items.

Anyway, I think he is a terrible design concept.

I think people REALLY, REALLY overdo it with this early game hero ****.

They can do very well 50 minute into the game, especially Deadwood. It's just not a pubstomp from him.

[Benny0]

Huh, so Gunblade turned out to be underpowered, so far it seems? Interesting, I kept hearing that with such synergy between his three skills and his passive, he was going to be utterly broken...

I haven't played him; I'm broke and can't get EA, but just at a glance, he seems like he needs to max too many of his skills to be a viable carry in this game, when heroes like Magebane can carry from early, or heroes like FA can farm so so so much faster than him.

I rather like his concept, all of his skills fit him well; I just think he's outclassed, but I also think he's in a good spot, if that makes sense. This is all theorycraft though, of course.

[Glibber`]

So far I've only seen Gunblade rape in 3 seconds. Might be new hero syndrome though, but he doesn't seem bad at all.

[Glibber`]

Apparently mods can stand criticism.

You suck ekamo. China was way better.

[Ekamo]

Apparently mods can stand criticism.

You suck ekamo. China was way better.

I heard derailing threads is a good way to approach with your criticism.

[Glibber`]

I like your signature ^^

Anyway, your modding is a bit off. Feel free to revive the posts and I'll rewrite it a bit or w/e.

There is no way the balance forum can ever escape being a semi-suggestions forum, it's just the nature of balance.


And I dislike the roflroflop/nerfomg/buffthishero/reworkthat threads/posts 2/3 of this subforum is about, but feel free to chase away people that are actually trying to contribute in a constructive manner.

[pewpewstar]

I like your signature ^^

Anyway, your modding is a bit off. Feel free to revive the posts and I'll rewrite it a bit or w/e.

There is no way the balance forum can ever escape being a semi-suggestions forum, it's just the nature of balance.


And I dislike the roflroflop/nerfomg/buffthishero/reworkthat threads/posts 2/3 of this subforum is about, but feel free to chase away people that are actually trying to contribute in a constructive manner.

You give yourself way too much credit. The modded posts were hardly substantive, but I guess you're free to keep thinking you're something.

[Glibber`]

You give yourself way too much credit. The modded posts were hardly substantive, but I guess you're free to keep thinking you're something.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/search.php?searchid=8067714


Probably a reason why you are 1500, if you play like you post.

(talking about substansive)


And no, just pointing out you should be one of the last to call on somebody's posts.

[pewpewstar]

oshit did I hurt your precious ego? My apologies. However, posting like you post will get them deleted unfortunately.

(talking about substansive (sic))

[TheMostHigh]

Gunblade is not weak at all, but his ultimate cooldown should be lower at 11/16, that's all. He is pretty strong and snowballs extremely hard as a hard carry. I know this because I went 25-2 immortal (with bloodlust mid I believe) MY FIRST GAME as Gunblade, after the enemy wouldn't remake our 4v5. We won very easy for 4v5. I know it's no proof of anything and they were noobs and I obviously don't belong in the same bracket as them, but the hero is so very potent.

I would like to call him easy to use and he kinda is, but you really have to abuse positioning to get the most damage from him, which is why most noob Gunblades are just feeding their tits off. And ranged agility requires basic positioning to use so most people feed with that class anyway (think Flint or Drac), but to stay at a comfortable but damaging range for passive is fun and challenging and allows you to stomp melee mids. :D

[Ekamo]

I like your signature ^^

Anyway, your modding is a bit off. Feel free to revive the posts and I'll rewrite it a bit or w/e.

There is no way the balance forum can ever escape being a semi-suggestions forum, it's just the nature of balance.


And I dislike the roflroflop/nerfomg/buffthishero/reworkthat threads/posts 2/3 of this subforum is about, but feel free to chase away people that are actually trying to contribute in a constructive manner.

1. Generally talking about "your deleted posts" won't help me at all, since a) you have no deleted posts in the Rampage thread and therefore b) I won't waste my time manually search where it is.

2. If I deleted a post, it is (hopefully) for a good reason. You can disagree with that reason all you want, but then I want to hear discussion about that either in here or via PM's, not in the thread itself.

3. There is the report button for posts you don't think follows the rules (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=393760). Use it for the posts you mentioned instead of complaining about it here.

4. Suggestions without any motivation behind them (or at least that you share with the rest) are USELESS.
Suggestions that are a result of a logical thought process (that you share) that leads to the conclusion that your specific proposed change is the best way to deal with the imbalance I approve heavily of.

I constantly try to improve my moderating, no one is perfect. Feel free to share any of your concerns here and we can discuss them. Or if you think I am doing such a terrible job, report it to Chavo and he'll take care of me if he agrees with you.

[Glibber`]

You're looking at the wrong rampage thread then, at least I got a pm from you about it.

And no, I wasn't suggesting anything (in the post BEFORE that post that also got deleted).. I was merely reacting to someone who proposed something (so I kinda figured it was about being too much of a suggestion post, that's why I noted that).

But hey w/e.

[changlingbob]

There is no way the balance forum can ever escape being a semi-suggestions forum

see my signature as to how to stop being bad

[Glibber`]

Responding to someone who is suggesting something = the same as suggesting it yourself? Ok.


Idiots.

[Ekamo]

As said, if you don't tell me the specifics of your concern, I have trouble identifying your particular issue. Rampage thread has almost the same amounts of posts deleted as there are not deleted ones.

Changlingbob's signature sums up my thoughts on suggestions pretty well, but if you disagree with that I would love to hear the counter-argument for it. I am never opposed to a good discussion.

And thanks for starting reporting, it is really appreciated. Currently it is only me that is moderating this forum, Yawning's internet is f-ed up, so reports can really allow me to focus the posts that needs attention. Remember though, I am not always online so don't except things to happen immediately.

[Skyve]

If IPL continues to pick their 4 strength hero line-up we might be able to finally see Soul Reaper in competitive games again.

[`Krigsbest]

Rampage should be deleted.
He's not fun to play nor skill required.

[Vascariz]

Ummm how do you constructively post on a balance thread or create a balance thread without also providing a suggestion? Without constructive suggestions you may as well rename this section the "Whinging" forum. As it'll just be a bunch of people posting either "overpowered' or "underpowered' with no real constructive discussion.

I mean it's not difficult to gauge if something is underpowered in the competitive scene. Simply refer to the competitive games and look at that mechanic's, item's or hero's utilisation.

The difficulty is in adjusting the mechanic, item or hero to balance. That is either implementing tweaks or reworks.

What is the point of the balance forum then? To highlight imbalances or to offer solutions?

[Vascariz]

If IPL continues to pick their 4 strength hero line-up we might be able to finally see Soul Reaper in competitive games again.

Except that Soul Reaper has nothing on them in the early to mid game. So ultimately you'll have 4 farmed up strength heroes versus an underfarmed Soul Reaper.

All he has is an ultimate that benefits from someone having high maximum health but it raises three issues.

1) Who's going to do the damage to get their hp down below 50%? Definitely not Soul Reaper.

2) His ultimate is magic damage. I'd much rather legionnaire who can tank damage toe to toe and then finish reliably or Anti-Mage to drain their mana pool and then finish with an AoE.

3) So what happens after you finish one off? What can Soul Reaper do to the other 3?

[Hsssh]

I mean it's not difficult to gauge if something is underpowered in the competitive scene. Simply refer to the competitive games and look at that mechanic's, item's or hero's utilisation.

This has been proven multiple times to be wrong approach and will lead to failure. Notice how some people here were suggesting buffs to Elephant because nobody used him for like 2 months and then he became first pick/ban hero with zero changes. We could say that point of this forum is not to follow competitive scene but to be one step ahead of it.


What is the point of the balance forum then? To highlight imbalances or to offer solutions?Priority is to highlight imbalances and form a consensus on which parts of item/hero/whatever are exactly causing problems. Then we might go to suggestions if we analyze what effect these changes will have not only to the hero/item but to whole game.
Starting with suggestions when we haven't even identified the problem(and problem is not that some hero is OP/UP, thats GD material) won't achieve anything substantial.

Edit: considering Soul Reaper, idea is that he is best at long fights and all tanky/str carries tend to prolong fights. So question here is can he outdo them with his aura and judgment spam. Ultimate is rather trivial here and besides it, arguably, works better against agi carries than tanks.

[Skyve]

Except that Soul Reaper has nothing on them in the early to mid game. So ultimately you'll have 4 farmed up strength heroes versus an underfarmed Soul Reaper.

All he has is an ultimate that benefits from someone having high maximum health but it raises three issues.

1) Who's going to do the damage to get their hp down below 50%? Definitely not Soul Reaper.

2) His ultimate is magic damage. I'd much rather legionnaire who can tank damage toe to toe and then finish reliably or Anti-Mage to drain their mana pool and then finish with an AoE.

3) So what happens after you finish one off? What can Soul Reaper do to the other 3?

You have no clue what Reaper does, have you?

Also why would Reaper be underfarmed while the 4 strength heroes magically get all thw farm?

[changlingbob]

Ummm how do you constructively post on a balance thread or create a balance thread without also providing a suggestion?
See my signature.

[SomethingOdd]

Tremble Least played hero, Must need a buff.

[Skyve]

Tremble Least played hero, Must need a buff.

Considering how much testie raped on him yesterday, I think it's safe to say we will survive without a buff on him.

[Vascariz]

This has been proven multiple times to be wrong approach and will lead to failure. Notice how some people here were suggesting buffs to Elephant because nobody used him for like 2 months and then he became first pick/ban hero with zero changes. We could say that point of this forum is not to follow competitive scene but to be one step ahead of it.

It is a decent indicator. Merely pointing out a few examples does not contradict the general trend. If you look at consistently unpicked heroes over a period of time you will note that those not picked are not picked for a reason. Also is elephant still first pick/ban or was it just a fad? Serious question btw. Also an excellent player will always rape weaker players regardless of their hero pick especially if a team is built around them.



Priority is to highlight imbalances and form a consensus on which parts of item/hero/whatever are exactly causing problems. Then we might go to suggestions if we analyze what effect these changes will have not only to the hero/item but to whole game.
Starting with suggestions when we haven't even identified the problem(and problem is not that some hero is OP/UP, thats GD material) won't achieve anything substantial.

But the Rampage thread started on the premise that there was a problem. Further quite a few posts in a row consistently identified the same problem. I naturally thought it was a good idea to then start make some MINOR suggestions.




Edit: considering Soul Reaper, idea is that he is best at long fights and all tanky/str carries tend to prolong fights. So question here is can he outdo them with his aura and judgment spam. Ultimate is rather trivial here and besides it, arguably, works better against agi carries than tanks.

I understand the theory behind Soul Reaper. I find it amazing that a moderator comes in here and trolls me about not understanding Soul Reaper. I was pointing out PRACTICALLY what I observe tends to happen when Soul Reaper is picked in his current form.

His ultimate is useful for its Superior Magic stun (Tempest with BKB e.g.) and also for finishing off heroes. Both are important aspects of his skillset.

As impressive as the aura is and the cooldown of judgement. It is rare in the current environment of heroes to have a Soul Reaper able to stand in the middle of team fight long enough for either to make a significant difference. This is due to the long period required for the aura to make a substantive difference and the short-range of judgement.

[Vascariz]

You have no clue what Reaper does, have you?

Also why would Reaper be underfarmed while the 4 strength heroes magically get all thw farm?

I do know what Reaper does actually. Instead of trolling perhaps you could enlighten me on how you would balance Soul Reaper?

Having strength heroes will not magically Soul Reaper stronger. His ultimate is % based. So the strength heroes takes more damage overall but also needs more damage to die. So overall the HP of the target does not influence his ultimate.

His farm is quite difficult as he has a bad attack animation, has quite a short ranged attack and does not have an effective farming spell early game due to the high mana cost of Judgement.


See my signature.

Nothing I posted on the Rampage forum contravened anything in your signature.

[Tedde]

Withering Presence says hi. Tho it's not that good overall, it's better against high hp targets.

[Skyve]

Withering Presence says hi. Tho it's not that good overall, it's better against high hp targets.

That's still not the point about Reaper being good against those 4 strength hero teams (the part about Aura doing more damage to high hp targets).

Reaper thrives off of long, drawn out fights. His Judgement is one of the best skills in terms of HP differential per cast, and is very spammable, and his aura is basically teamfightwide.

His ultimate overall is very unimportant to his strength against tanky teams (it's also very often better used for the superior magic stun :P).

[SomethingOdd]

I swear fayde needs a remake, useless in comp, stomps trash like me

[Skyve]

I swear fayde needs a remake, useless in comp, stomps trash like me

How is she useless in comp?

Are you one of those people that are under the impresion that in competitive games 100% of the map is covered in rev wards?

[Hsssh]

It is a decent indicator. Merely pointing out a few examples does not contradict the general trend.

Point is that if your arguments are based only on competitive picks then they don't hold much water.


I naturally thought it was a good idea to then start make some MINOR suggestions.

Did you explain how these changes would effect Rampage and whole game? And why exactly making these changes and not some other ones suggested would be the best option?


I understand the theory behind Soul Reaper. I find it amazing that a moderator comes in here and trolls me about not understanding Soul Reaper.

We have no knowledge of what you understand and what you do not since you are not regular here(or at least i don't remember you). Your post showed limited knowledge and you got commented on it.

[Orly2001]

Considering how much testie raped on him yesterday, I think it's safe to say we will survive without a buff on him.


Testie uses his god mode micro and ricing to give anyone that impression.

[Denord]

Can you ****ing nerf assist gold i am sick of Gank trains alla 3mins into the game

[Deledhel]

How do you guys feel about having to double lane vs Salphoris at mid every other game? A single melee hero will lose except may be :bloo: (which is really funny cause sillence is one of the things that counters salphoris) A single ranged will get outfarmed by the power of hatchet. The early lane durability this guy has is better than :bloo: (you dont have to lasthit to get the hp back) and the same skill has a strong offensive aspect as well as a mobility one. Feels kinda stupid right now.

[Meatsmoosh]

my only issue with SR is that he needs to itemize for mana and tankiness, while most standard str heroes just go helm/shaman/sol and call it a day. The fact that astrolabe is core on SR doesn't help his mana issues either. I'd like to suggest what dota did to necro, he gains 300mana for every HERO he kills. that would solve his mana dependency entirely

same issue with defiler, you need to go for phase/storm spirit, and then you can start building tank items

[skeloperch]

The problem with SR is that he is a relic of DotA, which S2 has worked hard to phase out. However, people that remember Necrolyte's good old days are still under the illusion that he is, in any way, relevant to the metagame. SR will never come back into the spotlight without major buffs/tweaks. His design DOES NOT fit the HoN meta-game, and it is far easier to just shift a few heroes around rather than rebalance several items and heroes. Long, drawn out teamfights are a thing of the past, even if everyone is a tanky meatwad.

S2 already recognized SR's weakness and buffed him, but he is STILL behind. There is too much burst for SR to be viable. Too many heroes can put out even/greater teamfight damage than SR can, and too many heroes have mobility. SR has no mobility, no auto-attack presence, and no early-game. He is, as I said, a relic of the old days of farm-till-you-drop.

Albeit, he was pretty decent back then. Let's face it, guys, SR is NOT coming back. No matter how much you want it to be true; SR is NOT coming back. It's something that I had to deal with. The game is faster now, and SR is a slow hero. Arguing that SR is fine is like arguing that Ganondorf is fine in Brawl. They deal fine damage, but they're too slow to deal that damage.

[Vascariz]

Point is that if your arguments are based only on competitive picks then they don't hold much water.
They weren't based only on competitive picks but I do not see how my argument does not hold water? Noone has been able to inform me as to why Soul Reaper may be useful in the current metagame. The HP of the enemy does not improve SR as his aura and ult are % based. Meaning yes they do more damage to higher HP but they you've done the same % of damage. It's still going to take ages for the aura to have a significant effect. Also judgement is only spam able late game and at only 130 HP heal every 5 seconds with low range it's not going to be keeping you or your team up in the late game. Late game because your mana pool cannot support an early/mid judgement spam. So if you want a hero to increase the survivability of your team or quickly remove one of their str carries from the fight then SR is not the pick.




Did you explain how these changes would effect Rampage and whole game? And why exactly making these changes and not some other ones suggested would be the best option?

Yes. The entire point of the suggestions was to target his competitive play without affecting or even blunting his pubstomping capabilities. Also finding away of encouraging higher level play.



We have no knowledge of what you understand and what you do not since you are not regular here(or at least i don't remember you). Your post showed limited knowledge and you got commented on it.
You state limited knowledge but what I've stated has been repeated by the mod criticizing me and I've not seen a proper response yet.


Anyway I'm ready to move on. Is there some conspiracy to phase out DotA heroes? Why not rip off the bandage and start removing some rather than allowing them to fester?

[Vascariz]

The problem with SR is that he is a relic of DotA, which S2 has worked hard to phase out. However, people that remember Necrolyte's good old days are still under the illusion that he is, in any way, relevant to the metagame. SR will never come back into the spotlight without major buffs/tweaks. His design DOES NOT fit the HoN meta-game, and it is far easier to just shift a few heroes around rather than rebalance several items and heroes. Long, drawn out teamfights are a thing of the past, even if everyone is a tanky meatwad.

Well said and
Sad face

[`Krigsbest]

Genjuro is a pretty cool item.

[Anakha]

It's almost like
there's this item....that gives you both mana AND tankiness.

[Vascariz]

I haven't bought that item yet >.< *hides in corner*

[XFlame]

Will Voodoo Ganker ever be popular, or will he be pigeonholed as a hard support forever?

[Skyve]

Will Voodoo Ganker ever be popular, or will he be pigeonholed as a hard support forever?

Second one.

I mean only [fray] ever play WS as a ganker (to great effect too I might add).

Although, people also have started using DS as a solo, and [fntc] even used Rhapsody as a sidelane solo once, so who knows?

[Scrubs]

genjuro as an item is better than nighthound is as a hero

[Hubaris]

Second one.

I mean only [fray] ever play WS as a ganker (to great effect too I might add).

Although, people also have started using DS as a solo, and [fntc] even used Rhapsody as a sidelane solo once, so who knows?

Remember the days of Voodoo when he had his insane base damage... Loved him as a solo mid, almost impossible to outhit him.