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romelAKO
10-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Disclaimer: This is not a QQ thread. I've done a lot of thinking on the subject and I still haven't quite found the answer for it yet.

As you guys may already know, Heroes of Newerth, is a very team-oriented game. This means that the bad performance of just one player is enough to throw the game into your opponents' favor. It's also a very situational game. Unlike a game such as Starcraft 2, the three races (Zerg, Protoss and Terran) have had all of the same units and abilities. The strategies differ between the races, but the unit counters are pretty concrete. Grinding the game for hours and analyzing every aspect of your game is how one would get better, and it's actually possible to reach a very high level of understanding. Situations will be the same as in other games (in terms of unit composition) and you know from previous games how to react and how not to react.

Now, with Heroes of Newerth, that's a little bit different. Because of the amount of heroes, abilities, and item combinations within the game, getting a taste of every one of these combinations is nearly impossible. Your opponent's team isn't going to be the same, and neither is yours, making the game a game of judgment and talent. To some extent, you can learn the heroes and their skillsets, but when it boils down to the game, you have to play very reactively. Watching your replays, I feel, aren't a very good resource to learn from your mistakes, because if you're ganked by say, a blatantly obvious Pudge, you'll just be saying in your head, "next time I'll juke around that tree so he won't hook me." How often are you going to be in that particular situation again?

My question is, how does one become a competitive player? Or, in other words, how does one improve in this game? Many games are thrown just because of bad players. Also, bad hero picks can make one's life miserable. If you're constantly being tied down by the negative aspects of team play, how can you possibly improve on your own?

I've played DotA for almost 2-3 years and HoN for maybe a year or so, and I can honestly say that despite the length of time I've played, I'm really bad. I play Starcraft 2 almost every day and play for hours and I've obtained a Master League standing, just from practice and analyzing. But with this game, I've found it especially difficult to improve in, just because of the team-aspect of the game and your reliance on your teammates.

Any kinds of suggestions or comments are welcome! Trolls are welcome too.

Oh, and, please don't post anything obvious like, "always carry a tp scroll" or something along those lines. That's basic HoN 101, and I'm pretty sure any competent player would do that.

Festivalen
10-04-2011, 03:01 PM
skills.

wor
10-04-2011, 03:06 PM
Some people are just better at things.

x_Odin
10-04-2011, 03:19 PM
core of succeding at this game is map awarness and positioning, so many people have repeated those words, but actually no one explained in depth what they mean, im not comp player myself but i can sumary u soemthing that would help you alot, never engage thnking ur safe to do what u want, u have always to think if someone missing from teamfight or if theres anyone comming from behind, always leave urself in apostion where u can escape if they focus u, never try t set up ganks alone near towers ( unless u're imba feed), with the time u will get used and build some kind of "sixth sense" of awarness like anticipate the moves of ur whole enemy team.

adapt to the situation be :nigh: when fight start or :madm: when ur sure of owning them, but always be care or u gonna be a :dead:.

Mike`
10-04-2011, 03:23 PM
There's only so much you can do solo, the rest is learning as a team.

KingKay
10-04-2011, 03:25 PM
core of succeding at this game is map awarness and positioning, so many people have repeated those words, but actually no one explained in depth what they mean, im not comp player myself but i can sumary u soemthing that would help you alot, never engage thnking ur safe to do what u want, u have always to think if someone missing from teamfight or if theres anyone comming from behind, always leave urself in apostion where u can escape if they focus u, never try t set up ganks alone near towers ( unless u're imba feed), with the time u will get used and build some kind of "sixth sense" of awarness like anticipate the moves of ur whole enemy team.

adapt to the situation be :nigh: when fight start or :madm: when ur sure of owning them, but always be care or u gonna be a :dead:.

Some heroes can jump you on the tower. Glacius/Pest lane anybody?

x_Odin
10-04-2011, 03:37 PM
My lazy post didnt cover all the situations, just one or two. hoping more poeple comming in and adding thier bit.

kippetje
10-04-2011, 03:41 PM
commitment, teamwork and I'd say not be a douchebag but looking at some players I guess thats not true :(

best way to get better is to just practice vs other teams. You do need a team to actually get better imo

Kapu
10-04-2011, 03:41 PM
Play a ton, solo to 1900, join team, play a ton together, join tournaments, lose a ton, start winning

dazzled`
10-04-2011, 06:37 PM
1)find a team and play together, analyze what you can all do better as a team.
2)never rage

PizdecEbashy
10-04-2011, 07:27 PM
Some people are just better at things.

this.

MikeTAR
10-04-2011, 07:35 PM
Did you catch em all?

Get 8 badges perhaps?

Conviction
10-04-2011, 07:51 PM
Get to 1900-1950 by yourself or with a buddy, so you know you are actually a good player. Then continue to find a good team and keep scrimming against other teams.
Random pubs/mm games aren't as organized as team vs team.

bg
10-04-2011, 08:00 PM
I think talent is necessary and many (most? nearly all?) people don't really have the ability to reach the top. Other than that, it takes a ton of playing and drive. It's easier to do when you're younger and have the time and energy to do it.

Striving to improve, thinking while playing, and playing with a great teammate helps you improve regardless of talent. You can go by learned instinct after a while and do ok, not thinking much about what you're doing, but you'll play better and improve with more active, thoughtful play.

You mention bad players and such making it hard to improve, but it's not really the case. Regardless of how much your team sucks, you can do your part, learn to do it better, and try to compensate for the team faults. You may not win, but so what? You can't go into every game just hoping you get a good dice roll and get teammates that you'll win with if you just play as you always do.

stronkplayer
10-04-2011, 11:37 PM
Playing 10 hours a day, thats about it. Competitive hon scene is a ****ing joke, pathetic nerd scene consisting of 20-30 people changing teams, if you dont know any of them you wont become competitive. Quite simple really...

Glull
10-05-2011, 12:04 AM
make yourself learn - question everything - play with people better than you and try to understand their reasoning. then question it.

if you start from scratch (no skilled friends and "1500" knowledge) i would estimate about 300 hours of actual game time until anyone with dedication (and an "iq" >100) can reach 1900 with confidence.

if you really want it, you will do it, and you will not go on a forum and post questions about it. just do it, make it work. yes, it is possible - yes, it is simple - yes, it is hard. for most people, anyhow.

yes, you will find people better than you in matchmaking. no, its not your teams fault you keep losing games. yes, nobody cares about your opinion. now do it, or stop asking stupid questions. i dont care which it is.

:>

`Mayhem
10-05-2011, 12:05 AM
Being good at competative play brings so much more then what has been mentioned here.

Very important aspects are ofcourse commitment (setting your goals), Talent (How fast & in what way do you learn to improve?), thinking outside of the box (Prediction) and most important of all, mental strength, a great & healthy mind is needed to play at full potential.

What alot of people underestimate is the power of prediction, this is what makes or breaks your game in my opinion, knowing what your opponent is going to do is major in your strategy. This is again why the tp scrolls come into play, most important item of the game. Do you tp to farm ur lane, or do u run to save it for a potential countergank? Small little details like this can put the victory more in your hands.
why prediction is so key is because it opens up alot more options, it can save you from game-changing events.


Analyzing is also key, watch your opponents closely, not just where they are, but what they are carrying, do they only have 3 tp's on them, do they have 5? They got an early shrunken head or they still saving up for a core item, these are all important things to look out for. It's the information you need to make decisions.


Learn to calculate stuff, how far can you go, what can you expect? This is where experience & talent comes into play.

DirtyPumpkin
10-05-2011, 03:36 AM
I think this thread was incorrectly labeled because as far as I can tell he isn't actually asking "How can I get into the competitive scene" hes asking "How can I hone me skills to be really good at this game". As far as answering the 2nd one it really takes like you said, an immense understanding of the game. Knowing what the other team is doing at all times even without wards, for example if you are farming a lane knowing when to back rather than stay that extra wave. I can't tell you how many times people get picked off farming a lane when with simple judgement they could realize the entire team is missing and you should back for the next wave. As far as obscenely situational spots such as getting ganked by a devo its more of knowing the potential of each hero, knowing when to man up or man down and gtfo.

Ynvva
10-05-2011, 04:23 AM
I feal like im in the exact same boat as the O/P (although im only 1600-1700). I feel im on a higher level than my teammates. Im not always the player to 'Dominate' and win the game by myself, but i never feed/die/lose my lane for no reason etc, like my team does.

My only answer is bad team atm, now and a gain i will get another 'English' player with a mic/brain.

Cannibal
10-05-2011, 05:03 AM
I stand by the believe that you will learn a lot more in HoN by watching others play (top player streams) than you ever would analizing replays of yourself and going about learning like you would in Starcraft. When it comes to watching the "pros" play Starcraft, I can watch all day and still fall flat on my face when I get in game. With HoN however, I actually learn a lot of neat tips and tricks that one would need to become a top tier player.

tl;dr Watching pro streams helps a lot more in HoN than it does in SC -imo

cREATEK
10-05-2011, 05:44 AM
buy coaching from testie. no i really mean it

Tobz0r
10-05-2011, 06:30 AM
when you are on honcast, you are a competetive player.

Eredia
10-05-2011, 11:16 AM
I stand by the believe that you will learn a lot more in HoN by watching others play (top player streams) than you ever would analizing replays of yourself and going about learning like you would in Starcraft. When it comes to watching the "pros" play Starcraft, I can watch all day and still fall flat on my face when I get in game. With HoN however, I actually learn a lot of neat tips and tricks that one would need to become a top tier player.

tl;dr Watching pro streams helps a lot more in HoN than it does in SC -imo

This is because Starcraft is a way more advanced game that requires constant decision making, multitasking, timings, positioning and strategy etc.

Analysing a game of Starcraft is much harder because it's hard to know what you are actually looking for among all things that could have gone wrong, while in HoN that list is much shorter.

That said HoN is not an ez game, just saying competitive Starcraft is in another league.

romelAKO
10-07-2011, 05:54 PM
This is because Starcraft is a way more advanced game that requires constant decision making, multitasking, timings, positioning and strategy etc.

Analysing a game of Starcraft is much harder because it's hard to know what you are actually looking for among all things that could have gone wrong, while in HoN that list is much shorter.

That said HoN is not an ez game, just saying competitive Starcraft is in another league.

I don't think I can agree. If anything, analyzing a Starcraft replay is easier, as you're only analyzing one aspect of the game--your gameplay. Whereas in HoN, in order to figure out what went wrong, you have to consider each and every hero and player in the game. You have to consider their build, their decision-making in the early game as well as team fights. There are more possibilities in HoN because there are so many heroes and so many combinations.

Pellikan
10-07-2011, 07:13 PM
I stand by the believe that you will learn a lot more in HoN by watching others play (top player streams) than you ever would analizing replays of yourself and going about learning like you would in Starcraft. When it comes to watching the "pros" play Starcraft, I can watch all day and still fall flat on my face when I get in game. With HoN however, I actually learn a lot of neat tips and tricks that one would need to become a top tier player.

tl;dr Watching pro streams helps a lot more in HoN than it does in SC -imo

I would say 100% no to this. I have only like 100 games total played in sc1 and sc2 ever, and just by watching some pro's play i actually could beat people with 2k+ games played (even tho im bad).

In HoN however, there are so many things you dont see or notice that you NEED to play and think yourself to become a good player.
I still think that watching pro players is a good way to see things that you should work on like: pulling,stacking,swapping steamboots, positioning, tactics ect.

EDIT: Only 3 races in sc2 which means there is alot less to learn about before you can actually do something.

Pellikan
10-07-2011, 07:15 PM
This is because Starcraft is a way more advanced game that requires constant decision making, multitasking, timings, positioning and strategy etc.

Analysing a game of Starcraft is much harder because it's hard to know what you are actually looking for among all things that could have gone wrong, while in HoN that list is much shorter.

That said HoN is not an ez game, just saying competitive Starcraft is in another league.

SC2 is not even close to HoN in how advanced it is :O

MSTRKRFTR
10-07-2011, 07:21 PM
SC2 is not even close to HoN in how advanced it is :O

what? You saying that HoN is more advanced than SC2? should I just facepalm now or wait for answer?

Eredia
10-07-2011, 07:49 PM
I don't think I can agree. If anything, analyzing a Starcraft replay is easier, as you're only analyzing one aspect of the game--your gameplay. Whereas in HoN, in order to figure out what went wrong, you have to consider each and every hero and player in the game. You have to consider their build, their decision-making in the early game as well as team fights. There are more possibilities in HoN because there are so many heroes and so many combinations.

Analyzing a high level starcraft game is not something a new player will do properly ever. Sure you might come to a conclusion like "ye player A won this fight and due to that he has an advantage which will let him get out more stuff to kill player B". But there are so many more things to it.

There are so many subtle things going on like the reason behind every building placement, timing on when to place a building that depends on map, spawn locations opponents race and strategy that you will not understand without deep understanding.

Same goes with analyzing unit placement, which hotspots on the map do you want to cover and with which units. When going into a fight which timing windows are you looking at considering upgrade timings, tech switches between the two players and even economical reasons counting ammount of bases that might force an attack depending on races.

Why do you make a certain type of unit, and do you spend those resources on a larger army or powering more workers, buildings and upgrades?

And when these attacks happens, how do you want to attack, how do you use the map to your advantage and do you want to set aside a part of your army to cut off reinforcements?

And back to those buildings, did you possibly place them 15 minutes back in a position that gives you an opportunity to launch a counter attack on your opponents base without passing his main army that dance with yours to give you an economic advantage plus forcing your opponent to split his focus to not lose the game?

As I said in my first post, HoN is not an easy game to master when it comes to analyzing teamplay, but no, it's not close to the complexity of starcraft in a game played by pros. The BIG PLAYS may not be as dramatic in starcraft since they can't really be seen. What wins you starcraft games are most often not the clashes of main armies.

crowblue
10-07-2011, 09:11 PM
sc2 takes very little skill, mostly just attack move and since u can bind all ur production buildings macro is very easy

MA121
10-07-2011, 09:13 PM
It's the same as becoming good at anything.

Practice a lot and learn from your mistakes while constantly looking for opportunities to push yourself.

You're welcome for the secret formula. You may now go pro at almost anything in the world.

Keki
10-08-2011, 01:19 AM
I watched one game that n0tails streamed with bubbles and they helped me break into 1700 and now I'm 1800 :P
Watching replays and critically thinking about plays etc. Kind of learnt the mentality from playing poker haha

DotA2Fix
10-08-2011, 01:34 AM
its just like any other game.. shear amount of hours put into the game = how good u will get..... and in pubs.. go middle lane. take over the game.. if u think u r better than ur MMR.. if u cant and consistently lose mid or cant seem to be able to move up in mmr.. that just means u just need more practice at that level and ur learning curve sucks. some ppl just learn faster.. took me 1k games to get over 1850 mmr.. and i didnt even have a mic.. i;d assume if i had a mic all this time.. prolly woulda cut the time by half...and tip: if you dont play support and your team wont buy wards.. just buy it urself and carry urself out of the bracket.. dont qq and lose the game by being stubborn little kid.. i see so many players in 1600-1700-1800 brackets think certain heroes have to support and if you are certain hero u can absolutely never buy wards.. and hence end up losing the game.. just getting ganked and then blaming it on "support" heroes

Nasty``
10-08-2011, 07:06 AM
be a good player, have good players around you, play against good players.

the question always is: what makes you a good player?

in my opinion theres all these general things map awareness, know hero/skills blablabla
but what is really important is: reaction time, prediction, theorycraft of drafting and also itembuilds, aiming.

if you're able to aim fast and and accurate you save important seconds that can be your edge.

never do nothing, always check how you can keep your gpm up or where to gank/support ( depending on role )

BUT THE HARDEST THING is: find 4 other players that bring all this skills, you enjoy to communicate with, and are active.

Mulaaks
10-08-2011, 07:20 AM
Analyzing a high level starcraft game is not something a new player will do properly ever. Sure you might come to a conclusion like "ye player A won this fight and due to that he has an advantage which will let him get out more stuff to kill player B". But there are so many more things to it.

There are so many subtle things going on like the reason behind every building placement, timing on when to place a building that depends on map, spawn locations opponents race and strategy that you will not understand without deep understanding.

Same goes with analyzing unit placement, which hotspots on the map do you want to cover and with which units. When going into a fight which timing windows are you looking at considering upgrade timings, tech switches between the two players and even economical reasons counting ammount of bases that might force an attack depending on races.

Why do you make a certain type of unit, and do you spend those resources on a larger army or powering more workers, buildings and upgrades?

And when these attacks happens, how do you want to attack, how do you use the map to your advantage and do you want to set aside a part of your army to cut off reinforcements?

And back to those buildings, did you possibly place them 15 minutes back in a position that gives you an opportunity to launch a counter attack on your opponents base without passing his main army that dance with yours to give you an economic advantage plus forcing your opponent to split his focus to not lose the game?

As I said in my first post, HoN is not an easy game to master when it comes to analyzing teamplay, but no, it's not close to the complexity of starcraft in a game played by pros. The BIG PLAYS may not be as dramatic in starcraft since they can't really be seen. What wins you starcraft games are most often not the clashes of main armies.

Landing a good :behe: fissure in a top-tier HoN game, requires at least as much skill as most of that which you mentioned.

theoutsider
10-08-2011, 07:56 AM
if youre US it also helps having below average looks and a huge e-ego as you will fit into the team environment perfectly

fenrixx
10-08-2011, 08:08 AM
It's like with almost everything. Someone can get good fast while someone gets there slower. Compare it to "bodybuilding/excercising" someone can workout 2 times a week and achieve the same as the one who is doing it 4 times a week. Natural talent is also a big part.

Atrocious
10-08-2011, 08:11 AM
the opposite of winning is not losing, it's to give up.

I solo queued to 1900, joined a team scrimmed and made contacts. Studied metagame and positioning. And time windows. Lost a tourney. clan disbanded, joined this one. And I'm so happy for that :)

Learn from better players.

zeNap
10-08-2011, 03:57 PM
Pay me 100$ and I will get you on Honcast

JoshGodlyP
10-08-2011, 05:19 PM
pay zaku 50$/hour and you'll be good to go bro

iLovecat
10-08-2011, 07:30 PM
How to be a competitive player?
From my experience as an ex-cal M CS 1.6 for 4 years and Master league SC2 season 2 and diamond season 1 (I don't play season 3), it's is the will "play to win". Because I play to win, I find whatever means to improve myself or weakness of the other team. I study every units and have a good understanding about them. When I play, I try to find a bad habit of the other player and explore it in my advantages. I watch replays to learn new strats/new styles to polish my style or find what the player did wrong and take note of it, so I wouldn't do it.
About map awareness, I only can say is try to guess where and what opponents doing and what they will do, what items they will buy. Outsmart them!

I agree with you that HoN is very team-based. I play HoN for 5 months and currently stuck at the 1650 MMR range as a soloing queuer. There was time , I won 12 games in a row and there was time I lost 12 games in a row. Sure, I rage when I lost because I play to win and whether I'm bad or the team is sh1tty (mirc like findringer in CS 1.6 is way better). I don't mind a sh1tty team, but people who don't want to listen or argue/ rage back whenever someone tell them something they did wrong or rage at them annoy me the most, because stubborn people have no place in competition.

Just my 2 cents

DutchGold
10-08-2011, 08:25 PM
How to be a competitive player?
From my experience as an ex-cal M CS 1.6 for 4 years and Master league SC2 season 2 and diamond season 1 (I don't play season 3), it's is the will "play to win". Because I play to win, I find whatever means to improve myself or weakness of the other team. I study every units and have a good understanding about them. When I play, I try to find a bad habit of the other player and explore it in my advantages. I watch replays to learn new strats/new styles to polish my style or find what the player did wrong and take note of it, so I wouldn't do it.
About map awareness, I only can say is try to guess where and what opponents doing and what they will do, what items they will buy. Outsmart them!

I agree with you that HoN is very team-based. I play HoN for 5 months and currently stuck at the 1650 MMR range as a soloing queuer. There was time , I won 12 games in a row and there was time I lost 12 games in a row. Sure, I rage when I lost because I play to win and whether I'm bad or the team is sh1tty (mirc like findringer in CS 1.6 is way better). I don't mind a sh1tty team, but people who don't want to listen or argue/ rage back whenever someone tell them something they did wrong or rage at them annoy me the most, because stubborn people have no place in competition.

Just my 2 cents

Your two cents isnt worth **** **** off youre terrible at every game youve played so far.

Eredia
10-08-2011, 10:02 PM
Landing a good :behe: fissure in a top-tier HoN game, requires at least as much skill as most of that which you mentioned.

I'm not talking about skill requirements to play HoN or Starcraft, since they are very different games. I'm talking about analyzing. Landing that fissure might be really hard, but not as hard to see why someone manage to land it.

No need to go into defensive mode to white knight your favorite game.

Kraiden`
10-09-2011, 06:43 AM
Play a lot. Don't do homework or do much work, just play 8hours a day.

Mediocre
10-09-2011, 06:59 AM
Practice.


Just like with everything else in this world.

miesty
10-09-2011, 07:01 AM
You just gotta be good at the game and team up with the right people that also want to be competitve, thats it.

Kwaidah
10-09-2011, 07:02 AM
find someone whos good and get carried. helped so many "COMPETITIVE" players.

smulch
10-09-2011, 07:03 AM
First, you need knowledge of every single heroes.
Second, you need to be able to apply said knowledge.
Third, you need a good awareness and reflexes.
Fourth, you need to be able to think outside of the box.

Now, if you have all of those, you should be eligible to join a team that want to be competitive. Then you need to have:

Planned teamwork
Planned strategies
Synergy between players (outside of the game)

Mulaaks
10-09-2011, 09:01 PM
I'm not talking about skill requirements to play HoN or Starcraft, since they are very different games. I'm talking about analyzing. Landing that fissure might be really hard, but not as hard to see why someone manage to land it.

No need to go into defensive mode to white knight your favorite game.

Why do you contradict your earlier post, by first comparing the levels of experience needed to be able to properly analyze a game, only to later post that the games aren't much alike? It doesn't seem very difficult to set up certain criteria for being able to analyze the game, when you coin 5+ high tier SC strategies, and non of HoN's.

There's much more than "just" landing a perfect fissurem to be taken into consideration when a high-tier :behe: goes ganking the opposing side's mid:

"Is it wise to leave the lane at this point? Will they see me leaving the lane? Do they have wards/patrolling heroes? And who is the hero I'm ganking/ganking with?"

Unless the viewer is able to grasp the planning correctly, they are unable to analyze the gank in it's enity.

/edit : HoN my favorite game? Guess you know more about me, than I do...

aminGo
10-10-2011, 01:52 PM
step one
get team

step two
play 24 hours like swindlemelonz

or alternative step two (easier on your ability to get money and *****es)
play 1 hour and be 24x better than swindlemelonz

NlNJA
10-10-2011, 03:04 PM
step one
get team

step two
play 24 hours like swindlemelonz

or alternative step two (easier on your ability to get money and *****es)
play 1 hour and be 24x better than swindlemelonz

jelly small son?

- play alot.

AMXZaku
10-10-2011, 03:16 PM
pay zaku 50$/hour and you'll be good to go bro

hater..