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MacroHard
09-19-2011, 05:06 PM
Contents

Preface - What and why
Damage Reduction and Damage Factor - How armor reduces incoming damage
Offensive Damage Amplification - The "sweet spot" for armor reduction
Effective Health and the Linearity of Armor - How the benefits of armor are linear (not diminishing)
"Diminishing" Returns of EHP - The illusion of diminishing returns
Incremental Benefits of Health and Armor - The benefits of 1 extra HP or armor
Lines of Equivalency - How much health a single point of armor is equal to
Optimization and Adjustments for Fixed Magic Damage - How to optimize your gold for maximum EHP for fixed incoming magic damage
Optimization and Adjustments for Scaling Magic Damage - How to optimize your gold for maximum EHP for incoming damage as a percentage of total damage
Health/Armor Balance Quick Reference - Easy to read rule of thumb that quickly summarizes all of the above
Conclusion - Meaningless generalities
Item EHP Tables - 60 individual tables itemizing the EHP and EHP/gold for every item in HoN
FAQ - Your questions answered


Preface


Armor is one of, if not the most, under appreciated and underrated attributes in HoN.

After searching through the threads, stickied posts, and google searches, I still could not find a guide truly dedicated to unraveling the mysteries of EHP specific to HoN. The closest guide that met my standards, by Malle, was mostly focused on comparing armor to shield blocking. While brilliant, it still didn't quite get the message out on the true value of armor. Malle's guide can be read here: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=444209#post=444209.

I am aware that these formulas are commonly available and have been hashed out many, many times before. The first few sections of this guide are just for ease of reference and overall consolodation. Please continue to the end of this guide for newer revelations.


Damage Reduction and Damage Factor


for positive armor:
DR = 0.06*A/(1 + .06*A)
DF = 1/(1+0.06*A)

for negative armor:
DR = 0.94^(-A) - 1
DF = 2 - 0.94^(-A)


These are the basic formulas that are the building block of effective health. All of these formulas are available on various threads and guides on the mechanics forum and honwiki. They are repeated here for your convenience.

Definitions
Health HP
Health is the in-game attribute that determines your capacity for life. When health drops to zero your hero dies. Maximum health increases with strength (19 health for every 1 strength), can be purchased directly, or enhanced by skills/spells.

Armor A
Armor is the in-game attribute that is used to calculate Damage Reduction. Higher armor corresponds to more damage resistance. Armor increases with agility (.14 armor for every 1 agility), can be purchased directly, or enhanced by skills/spells.

Damage Reduction DR
DR is how much, by percentage, incoming damage is reduced. For example, a DR value of 25% reduces one-fourth of damage. DR increases with armor. Both physical and magical armor work the same way, but against different damage types.

Damage Factor DF
DF is how much damage an attack actually does as a proportion of the listed damage. For example, for DF = 0.60, a 200 damage attack will only remove 120 health from the target. DF = 1 - DR.
Damage Reduction Formulas, Table, and Graph
Damage Reduction DR
DR = 0.06*A/(1 + .06*A), A > 0
DR = 0.94^(-A) - 1, A < 0
note: For this equation, since A < 0, -A will be positive

Table:
http://i53.tinypic.com/259it92.jpg

Graph:
http://i56.tinypic.com/256wpyq.jpg
Damage Factor Formulas, Table, and Graph
Damage Factor DF
DF = 1/(1+0.06*A), A > 0
DF = 2 - 0.94^(-A), A < 0
note: For this equation, since A < 0, -A will be positive

Table:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2gt8zrp.jpg

Graph:
http://i51.tinypic.com/2ep4yo8.jpg

Offensive Damage Amplification


When talking about DPS, all you care about is how fast you can eliminate the opponent. If the enemy has 20 armor, how much faster can I kill him with Shieldbreaker Level 2? If the enemy has -5 armor because of Pesti ultimate, is it really worth buying Sol's Bulwark? These questions can be answered by looking at when armor makes the enemy most vulnerable to physical damage.

This section identifies the "sweet spot" where armor reducing items and spells have the biggest effect. This sweet spot is typically between 3 and 5 armor. You can also see that armor reducing items and spells still maintain usefulness even into the negative armor range.

Definition and Example
Damage Amplification
Damage Amplification will be defined, for the sake of this guide, the rate of change of the Damage Factor with respect to Armor, divided by the original Damage Factor. It is essentially the increase of damage on a percentage basis.

For example, the enemy has an armor value of 15 and you intend to decrease it by 5.
DF(15) = 1/(1+.06*15) = 0.526 = 52.6%
DF(10) = 1/(1+.06*10) = 0.625 = 62.5%

The increase in Damage Factor is 9.9%.
However, the Damage Amplification is (0.625-0.526)/(0.526) = 18.8%.

By lowering the enemies' armor from 15 to 10 you will kill them 18.8% faster.
Formula
For negative armor,
DF = 2-0.94^(-A)
-dDF/dA = 2489*2^(A-1)*5^(2*A)/(20113*47^A)
-dDF/dA / DF = 2489*2^(A-1)*5^(2*A)/(20113*47^A)/(2-0.94^(-A))

For positive armor,
DF = 1/(1+.06*A)
-dDF/dA = 150/(9*A^2+300*A+2500)
-dDF/dA / DF = 150/(9*A^2+300*A+2500)*(1+.06*A)
Table, General Case
http://i52.tinypic.com/2cr8uc5.jpg
Graph, General Case
http://i54.tinypic.com/2cgld04.jpg
Table, Item Specific
This shows the total Damage Amplification from Shieldbreaker and Sol's Bulwark.
http://i51.tinypic.com/2ciiatt.jpg
Graph, Item Specific
http://i51.tinypic.com/dxjrqp.jpg

Effective Health and the Linearity of Armor


Effective Health, or EHP, is another commonly referred to factor along with Damage Reduction. EHP is more meaningful to reality however, as explained in the definition below. Once again these formulas are repeated here for your convenience.

Definition
Effective Health EHP
EHP is the amount of unmitigated damage you can take before dying. For example, it takes 20 attacks of 200 listed damage to kill a target with 4000 EHP. Due to this direct relation to unmitigated incoming damage EHP is the single best measurement of survive-ability. Both Health and Armor contribute to the calculation of EHP.
Effective Health Formula
EHP = HP/(1 - DR) = HP/DF = HP*(1 + .06*A), A > 0
EHP = HP/(1 - DR) = HP/DF = HP/[2 - 0.94^(-A)], A < 0
note: For this equation, since A < 0, -A will be positive
Tables
http://i53.tinypic.com/fw6ps0.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/2vnm7gy.jpg
Graphs
http://i51.tinypic.com/2wf30gw.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/2s6rgua.jpg
Linearity
As shown in the graphs, the benefit of armor is purely linear for positive armor even though damage reduction is diminishing.

Every additional point of armor gives the same benefit as the point before.

In other words, going from 5 to 6 armor has the same benefit as going from 45 to 46 armor. Not only is there no functional armor cap, there is not even an upper bound where armor becomes less effective.

To prove this with the formulas, let's take the example above with 2000 health:
2000 HP and 5 armor gives 2600 EHP
2000 HP and 6 armor gives 2720 EHP... a gain of 120 EHP
2000 HP and 45 armor gives 7400 EHP
2000 HP and 46 armor gives 7520 EHP... also a gain of 120 EHP

"Diminishing" Returns of EHP


While total EHP increases linearly with armor, the percentage of EHP gain compared to current EHP naturally decreases. The same applies for every attribute in HoN. For example, increasing Health (or EHP, or mana, etc) from 1000 to 1100 is a gain of 100 or 10%. However, increasing Health from 2000 to 2100 is still a gain of 100 but now only 5%.

For example, if you already have 20 armor, 1 additional point of armor will increase your EHP by 2.7%, NOT by 6%.

Calculation
%EHP gain is calculated by taking the dirivative of the EHP formula and dividing the result by the EHP formula.

For negative armor,
EHP = 1/(2-0.94^(-A))
dEHP/dA = 2489*2^A*47^A*5^(2*A)/(20113*5^(4*A)*2^(2*A+1)-20113*47^A*5^(2*A)*2^(A+3)+160904*47^(2*A))
%EHP = dEHP/da / EHP = [2489*2^A*47^A*5^(2*A)/(20113*5^(4*A)*2^(2*A+1)-20113*47^A*5^(2*A)*2^(A+3)+160904*47^(2*A))]*(2-0.94^(-A))

For positive armor,
EHP = (1+.06*A)
dEHP/dA = 0.06 (somewhat easier than negative formula!)
%EHP = dEHP/dA / EHP = 0.06/(1+.06*A)
Table
http://i55.tinypic.com/11qs400.jpg
Graph
http://i51.tinypic.com/2w1v6nq.jpg

Incremental Benefits of Health and Armor


This is the first step towards understanding how to maximize EHP. In order to optimizing the balance between Health and Armor, we must first identify exactly the benefit, in terms of EHP, from one additional unit of Health or Armor.

HP's incremental effect on EHP: (increase in EHP) = (additional HP)*(1 + .06*A)
(original EHP) = (original HP)*(1 + .06*A)
(new EHP) = (original HP + additional HP)*(1 + .06*A)
(increase in EHP) = (new EHP) - (original EHP) = (additional HP)*(1 + .06*A)
Armor's incremental effect on EHP: (increase in EHP) = .06*HP*(additional A)
(original EHP) = HP*[1+.06*(original A)]
(new EHP) = HP*{1 + .06*[(original A)+(additional A)]}
(increase in EHP) = (new EHP) - (original EHP) = .06*HP*(additional A)

Lines of Equivalency


For every given Health and Armor combination, there is a precise ratio at which X Health is equivalent to Y Armor.

Each "line of equivalency" is:
(additional HP)/(additional A) = .06*HP/(1 + .06*A)

Explanation
Set incremental EHP gain from Health equal to incremental EHP gain from Armor:
(additional HP)*(1 + .06*A) = .06*HP*(additional A)
(additional HP)/(additional A) = .06*HP/(1 + .06*A)

For example, if you currently have 15 armor and 2000 health, increasing armor by 1 is equivalent to increasing health by 63.2. To put it in more game-real quantities, increasing armor by 5 is equivalent to increasing health by 316.
Table
http://i52.tinypic.com/2u5x7jt.jpg
Graph
http://i51.tinypic.com/24q2uqt.jpg

Optimization and Adjustments for Fixed Magic Damage


By assigning in game currency, gold, to each incremental point in Health or Armor, we can calculate a single line of Health/Armor optimization.

It is important to note that this gold assignment is subjective. My calculations and graphs are based on 1 HP = 4.4 gold and 1 Armor = 110 gold.

Using this assumption, the optimal balance of Health and Armor is:
A = 0.04*[HP-(Anticipated Magic Damage Received)] - 16.67

Assumptions
Fortified Bracelet = 510 gold, 114 HP -> 4.47 gold/HP
Beastheart = 1100 gold, 250 HP -> 4.40 gold/HP
Ringmail = 550 gold, 5 A -> 110 gold/A

Although there are many items that give armor and/or HP, I am assuming that the portion of the cost of these items directly responsible for health and/or armor fall within these same ratios.

For instance, Frostfield Plate costs 4700 gold and gives 15 armor. The cost per armor is not 313. Rather, I am assuming that the cost associated with 15 armor is only 1650 gold. The remaining 3050 gold for this item go towards the other benefits for that item (int, mana, active, etc).
Calculation
(additional HP)/(additional A) = .06*HP/(1 + .06*A)
(1/4.4)/(1/110) = .06*HP/(1 + .06*A)
25 = .06*HP/(1 + .06*A)
A = 0.04*HP - 16.67

This works fine for when 100% of the damage you take is physical. However, there is a lot of magic in HoN. Therefore you must account for the post-mitigated magic damage you anticipate to absorb in a fight. This damage deducts from your health such that the formula becomes:
A = 0.04*[HP-(Anticipated Magic Damage Received)] - 16.67
Graph
http://i56.tinypic.com/2u70do2.jpg
Example
You have 2000 HP. Based on the enemy team composition, you expect to receive 1000 damage after reductions in a particular teamfight.

Using the 1000 damage line, you should have about 23 physical armor for an optimal balance between health and armor.

Optimization and Adjustments for Scaling Magic Damage


Similar to above, this section uses the same gold assumptions of 1 HP = 4.4 gold and 1 Armor = 110 gold.

This time, rather than a fixed amount of magic damage, the balance is calculated using the percentage of incoming damage that is magical.

Calculations
Let X = percentage of incoming damage that is magical (.25 = 25% of unmitigated damage received is magic)
Let M = magic armor

Amount of Magic Damage = X/DF = X/(1+.06M)
Amount of Physical Damage = (1-X)/DF = (1-X)/(1+.06A)
Effective Combined Damage Factor = X/(1+.06M) + (1-X)/(1+.06A)
Effective Combined EHP = HP/DF = HP/((1-X)/(1+.06A)+X/(1+.06M))

Value of HP = ((H+1)/((1-X)/(1+.06A)+X/(1+.06M)) - H/((1-X)/(1+.06A)+X/(1+.06M)))/4.4
Value of A = H/((1-X)/(1+.06(A+1))+X/(1+.06M)) - H/((1-X)/(1+.06A))+X/(1+.06M))

Setting these equal yields the following solution for H in terms of A:
HP = (3AX-3M(X-1)+50)((3A+3)X-3M(X-1)+50))/((1-X)/(1+.06A)+X/(1+.06M))/4.4/(3M+50)^2/(1-X)/.06/110
Graph
http://i42.tinypic.com/aexmb8.png
Example
You have 2000 HP and 10.5 magic armor. Based on the enemy team composition, you expect half the damage you receive will be magical (X = 0.5).

Using the X = 0.5, M = 10.5 line, you should have about 18 to 19 physical armor for an optimal balance between health and armor.


Health/Armor Balance Quick Reference


Let's face it. Looking at multiple graphs, tables, and charts is silly and impractical while in a game. While it makes for an interesting thought experiment while cruising the forums, nobody will ever think "okay, if I'm going to take X amount of magic damage, my next item purchase should be...".

To address this, I put together a "Hybrid" method - a single simple graph that combines the essence of everything you've learned up until this point. The result is a continuous line that simply lets you know if you're in the right ballpark for efficient EHP gain. If you frequently stray from this line perhaps you have a tendency to invest too much in Health or too much in Armor. Remember, balance is key.

WARNING! Hard numbers and math end here. What follows is purely subjective!

What is This?
If you look at the optimization lines, how likely is it that you will take 1500 magic damage at a point in the game where you are still sitting on 750 health? Zero. The following table and graph is essentially a smoothed line based on the fact that magic is more prevalent early game.
Table
http://i39.tinypic.com/2a5zomc.png
Graph
http://i40.tinypic.com/35k1kzo.png
Example
You have 2000 HP. The enemy team is more physical based than usual, but there are still some magic sources.

Using the graph and estimating between the "Heave Physical" and "Typical" lines, you should have approximately 20 physical armor for an optimal balance between health and armor.

Conclusion


Because magic damage is more prominent early game, armor is mostly not necessary very early game until your health reaches around 1000. However, after that point, armor's economic effectiveness skyrockets. Even with expecting to take a whopping 1500 magic damage after mitigation, you should have about 23 armor by the time you hit 2500 HP. Keep this in mind next time you contemplate building your hero to have 3500+ health. More often then not you are better off buying some simple armor items if your goal truly is to be as tanky as possible.

The benefits of Armor are completely linear and there is no upper bounds for armor
Armor is often the least expensive way to increase EHP
High Health / Low Armor has the advantage of providing better protection against magical attacks
High Armor / Low Health makes better use of health regeneration items and spells

MacroHard
09-19-2011, 05:07 PM
Item EHP Tables


This section tabulates the additional EHP an item gives. It factors in Health, Armor, Regeneration, Blocking, Evasion, and even the amount of unmitigated incoming damage. The tables are sorted in descending order by EHP per gold.


Assumptions

10 second duration when factoring in Health Regeneration
Health regeneration of 3 HP/sec prior to item purchase
No evasion or blocking prior to item purchase (whether from other items, spells, or skills)


EHP Factors

H - Health
A - Armor
R - Health Regeneration
T - Health Regeneration Time (10 seconds)
D - Unmitigated Incoming Damage (affects damage block)
S - Strength of Item (adds to health and health regeneration)
A - Agility of Item (adds to agility)
B - Shield Blocking value
%B - Shield Blocking chance
%E - Evasion chance


Formula

EHP = (H+RT)*D/X
X = Average Mitigated Damage = [F*(D-B)*(%B)+F*D*(1-%B)]*(1-%E)
F = Damage Factor = 1/(1+.06*A)
Note:
This formula gives the total EHP; the values in the tables below reflect the difference in total EHP from before and after acquiring the item.


Tables

Tables are broken up as follows:
D = {75, 150, 225}
H = {500, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000}
A = {0, 2, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40}
Note:
Not all permutations are used. Unlikely extremes are omitted (for example 3000 HP and 0 armor at the same time).

D = 75
H = 500
A = 0
http://i56.tinypic.com/mvkwfb.jpg
A = 2
http://i51.tinypic.com/sq356v.jpg
A = 5
http://i51.tinypic.com/2mffa0y.jpg
A = 10
http://i54.tinypic.com/mc91ma.jpg
A = 15
http://i52.tinypic.com/10epxdu.jpg
H = 1000
A = 2
http://i54.tinypic.com/3496tg2.jpg
A = 5
http://i55.tinypic.com/2gxk3y8.jpg
A = 10
http://i51.tinypic.com/35b5gkm.jpg
A = 15
http://i55.tinypic.com/2zzqiw6.jpg
A = 20
http://i52.tinypic.com/25grner.jpg
H = 1500
A = 5
http://i55.tinypic.com/11v4guw.jpg
A = 10
http://i51.tinypic.com/t99vnq.jpg
A = 15
http://i51.tinypic.com/ke83a0.jpg
A = 20
http://i55.tinypic.com/68ano6.jpg
A = 25
http://i51.tinypic.com/a4n59y.jpg
H = 2000
A = 10
http://i56.tinypic.com/29gc17d.jpg
A = 15
http://i54.tinypic.com/veni1y.jpg
A = 20
http://i52.tinypic.com/kcc9x1.jpg
A = 25
http://i51.tinypic.com/6pxa43.jpg
A = 30
http://i52.tinypic.com/1zd3drb.jpg
D = 150
H = 1000
A = 2
http://i52.tinypic.com/294714i.jpg
A = 5
http://i51.tinypic.com/2pqmes9.jpg
A = 10
http://i54.tinypic.com/2z7iy3t.jpg
A = 15
http://i51.tinypic.com/6jis07.jpg
A = 20
http://i55.tinypic.com/2myogwm.jpg
H = 1500
A = 5
http://i51.tinypic.com/2v84hld.jpg
A = 10
http://i56.tinypic.com/5nj6lj.jpg
A = 15
http://i51.tinypic.com/smbll5.jpg
A = 20
http://i53.tinypic.com/20su236.jpg
A = 25
http://i55.tinypic.com/4gj9y8.jpg
H = 2000
A = 10
http://i56.tinypic.com/2307e0.jpg
A = 15
http://i56.tinypic.com/14a07o.jpg
A = 20
http://i52.tinypic.com/4r5nup.jpg
A = 25
http://i52.tinypic.com/2cdykgy.jpg
A = 30
http://i53.tinypic.com/2gslbap.jpg
H = 2500
A = 15
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nu6qm1.jpg
A = 20
http://i56.tinypic.com/30hvfyg.jpg
A = 25
http://i51.tinypic.com/2a20wm.jpg
A = 30
http://i53.tinypic.com/2jeb7g8.jpg
A = 35
http://i55.tinypic.com/j90rk8.jpg
D = 225
H = 1500
A = 5
http://i56.tinypic.com/2zqraxw.jpg
A = 10
http://i53.tinypic.com/2h67srq.jpg
A = 15
http://i53.tinypic.com/106g4jq.jpg
A = 20
http://i55.tinypic.com/2uz3zgn.jpg
A = 25
http://i53.tinypic.com/1z20klk.jpg
H = 2000
A = 10
http://i54.tinypic.com/fd7lmv.jpg
A = 15
http://i54.tinypic.com/2yvkwgn.jpg
A = 20
http://i54.tinypic.com/2s1sx9v.jpg
A = 25
http://i56.tinypic.com/n55wnr.jpg
A = 30
http://i56.tinypic.com/oa6n1j.jpg
H = 2500
A = 15
http://i54.tinypic.com/2dgt7qa.jpg
A = 20
http://i55.tinypic.com/9hs9s6.jpg
A = 25
http://i56.tinypic.com/fm0sqd.jpg
A = 30
http://i54.tinypic.com/x6dc1d.jpg
A = 35
http://i51.tinypic.com/x4ejqp.jpg
H = 3000
A = 20
http://i53.tinypic.com/24od8qf.jpg
A = 25
http://i56.tinypic.com/1h2djs.jpg
A = 30
http://i53.tinypic.com/2uij76b.jpg
A = 35
http://i53.tinypic.com/2vifomq.jpg
A = 40
http://i56.tinypic.com/2qx1g9f.jpg

MacroHard
09-19-2011, 05:08 PM
FAQ
to be populated based on responses in this thread


Q: I currently have 2000 HP. Approximately how much Armor should I have?

According to the Hybrid Approach table, an armor value of around 17 or 18 is a good balance for defending against all sources of damage in a typical game. Keep in mind this is just an approximation; depending on your enemy lineup you may need much less or much more than this. However, this value is an excellent starting point for typical scenarios. Use it as a gut check to make sure you are in the right ball-park.

Q: How do you determine whether its "best" to spend my gold on more Health or more Armor?

However, the only thing i am missing is a chart whether its better to get more HP or more Armor if you got a certain amount of HP and Armor. For example i got like... 1500 HP and 7 Armor will i get more EHP if i buy Armor or HP.

Find your point in the "Lines of Equivalency" (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=14323016#07) graph. At 1500 HP and 7 Armor, the graph shows that 1 Armor is equal to about 63 HP. So buying a Ringmail (5 Armor) is equivalent to increasing your health by 315. But this only applies to physical damage and does not factor in gold cost.

The answer to the gold effectiveness is in the "Gold Burden and Economic Normalization" (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=14323016#08) graph. First you have to identify how much magic damage you think you'll sustain. At 1500 HP and 7 Armor, it's early game, so let's use 750 magic damage line. Follow the imaginary curve (halfway between the 500 and 1000 magic damage lines) to where it intersects 1500 HP. This equals about 13 armor. Since you only have 7 Armor, you are behind in Armor and therefore it's more cost efficient to buy Armor than HP if your goal is EHP.

Q: Will stacking health be more beneficial considering the regeneration of Behemoth's Heart?

EHP calculations ignore regen, usually. I agree that armor is still better, but when people stack HP like that they usually are looking to get a really high HP regen rather than just general survivability. It's still bad, but not as bad as you might think: :fors:

Regeneration, even from max HP based Behemoth's Heart, actually favors sacrificing HP for armor. This is because each point of HP regenerated works harder and lasts longer with ample armor. Let's factor in regen using the example of :BehemothsHeart: :BehemothsHeart: :BehemothsHeart: vs :BehemothsHeart: :FrostfieldPlate: :DaemonicBreastplate on a Hero with 111 strength, 15 armor, and no other health or regen items.

:BehemothsHeart: :BehemothsHeart: :BehemothsHeart: = 5004 HP, 15 Armor, 44 regen
:BehemothsHeart: :FrostfieldPlate: :DaemonicBreastplate = 3074 HP, 45 Armor, 27 regen

Not factoring in regen:
5004 HP -> 5004 HP and 15 armor = 9508 EHP
3074 HP -> 3074 HP and 45 armor = 11374 EHP
1866 EHP increase

15 seconds of regen:
5004 HP -> 5664 HP and 15 armor = 10762 EHP
3074 HP -> 3479 HP and 45 armor = 12872 EHP
2110 EHP increase

30 seconds of regen:
5004 HP -> 6324 HP and 15 armor = 12016 EHP
3074 HP -> 3884 HP and 45 armor = 14371 EHP
2355 EHP increase

The more you utilize your regeneration, the more the lack of regeneration pays off. Counter-intuitive but true!

Boltzen
09-19-2011, 05:26 PM
Awesome, fully in depth and so, so detailed. I don't see how you can improve this.
Also, there is a small typo "reaces" in the conclusion paragraph.

MacroHard
09-19-2011, 05:32 PM
Thank you. Fixed typo.

To me, EHP was something everyone was supposed to take for granted. There were equations and graphs here and there, but I was never happy with any one guide. I asked ElementUser if I could make my own and he told me to go for it.

The reserved post #2 is going to be epic an exhaustive list of every item's EHP/gold for every Armor/Health combination, but it'll take me about a week to finish it. In the meantime I wanted to share the basics and get the conversation going.

Xenp
09-19-2011, 05:36 PM
Oh man you are fast on your typo correction - second time I've gone to post and it's been fixed while I was reading through it =P


Amazing job btw

MacroHard
09-19-2011, 05:46 PM
If any of you have any questions, doubts, recommendations, or requests, let me know. I want this to be as clear, complete, and helpful as possible.

edit: or confusion or clarification

Connect
09-19-2011, 07:03 PM
Good lord.. Wauw. Nice job mate!

ElementUser
09-19-2011, 08:29 PM
clap.gif!

FlyingFury
09-19-2011, 11:08 PM
Awesome. Also u have a typo in definitions in DF where it says how much an "attack doesactually does"

Sultax
09-19-2011, 11:10 PM
first

Fair
09-20-2011, 03:20 AM
Sticky! :O

apm120
09-20-2011, 04:34 AM
TLDR?

i got that you better of getting magic armor if over 1000hp....what about normal armour?

xDries
09-20-2011, 05:38 AM
TLDR?

i got that you better of getting magic armor if over 1000hp....what about normal armour?
Troll right? Just read the whole thing -_-'

Mc_Muffin
09-20-2011, 07:49 AM
Really nice and interesting post.

The Only thing that kinda confused me was the last part about "Gold Burden and..." which may come from my english :)

However, the only thing i am missing is a chart, where you can see, whether its better to get more HP or more Armor if you got a certain amount of HP and Armor.

For example i got like... 1500 HP and 7 Armor will i get more EHP if i buy Armor or HP. I am quite sure that this is able to calculate, i only would have to start thinking about it (which i dont want to ATM :D )

Its also possible, that that is what stands in the last part of you post, since i didnt really get that part :)

But anyway: nice post

matruder
09-20-2011, 08:12 AM
Awesome post :)

MacroHard
09-20-2011, 11:07 AM
Awesome. Also u have a typo in definitions in DF where it says how much an "attack doesactually does"

Thanks. Fixed.


Really nice and interesting post.

The Only thing that kinda confused me was the last part about "Gold Burden and..." which may come from my english :)

However, the only thing i am missing is a chart, where you can see, whether its better to get more HP or more Armor if you got a certain amount of HP and Armor.

For example i got like... 1500 HP and 7 Armor will i get more EHP if i buy Armor or HP. I am quite sure that this is able to calculate, i only would have to start thinking about it (which i dont want to ATM :D )

Its also possible, that that is what stands in the last part of you post, since i didnt really get that part :)

But anyway: nice post

Find your point in the "line of equivalency" graph. At 1500 HP and 7 Armor, the graph shows that 1 Armor is equal to about 63 HP. So buying a Ringmail (5 Armor) is equivalent to increasing your health by 315. But this only applies to physical damage and does not factor in gold cost.

The answer to this is in the last graph. First you have to identify how much magic damage you think you'll sustain. At 1500 HP and 7 Armor, it's early game, so let's use 750 magic damage line. Follow the imaginary curve (halfway between the 500 and 1000 magic damage lines) to where it intersects 1500 HP. This equals about 13 armor. Since you only have 7 Armor, you are behind in Armor and therefore it's more cost efficient to buy Armor than HP if your goal is EHP.



Good question. Added to FAQ.

Mc_Muffin
09-21-2011, 11:21 AM
awesome dude :)
tbh i never really checked my armor and instead just bought mass hp (if i chose to go tanky) your thread really fixed that...thanks man

greetz Mc_Muffin

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 11:38 AM
awesome dude :)
tbh i never really checked my armor and instead just bought mass hp (if i chose to go tanky) your thread really fixed that...thanks man

greetz Mc_Muffin

This is why it is *never* good to buy more than one Behemoth Heart (I still see this in some trash games).

For example, take a no-stats all mid game where everyone eventually gets max farm. You see Legionnaires or Devourers walking around with 3 Behemoth Hearts thinking they're unkillable with 5000 HP. Well the truth is they would be even more un-killable with a Behemoth Heart, Demonic, and Frostfield Plate.

5000 HP and 15 armor = 9500 EHP
3070 HP and 45 armor = 11359 EHP

Almost a 20% increase in EHP... and that doesn't even account for the decreased enemy attack speed from Frostfield, the AOE damage and slow from Frostfield, the huge mana supply from Frostfield, the massive attack speed from Demonic, the AOE attack speed from Demonic, the AOE armor (and EHP) of Demonic, and the AOE -armor (and -EHP) that the enemy now suffers.

Cool huh?

Zwai
09-21-2011, 12:05 PM
This is why it is *never* good to buy more than one Behemoth Heart (I still see this in some trash games).

For example, take a no-stats all mid game where everyone eventually gets max farm. You see Legionnaires or Devourers walking around with 3 Behemoth Hearts thinking they're unkillable with 5000 HP. Well the truth is they would be even more un-killable with a Behemoth Heart, Demonic, and Frostfield Plate.

5000 HP and 15 armor = 9500 EHP
3070 HP and 45 armor = 11359 EHP

Almost a 20% increase in EHP... and that doesn't even account for the decreased enemy attack speed from Frostfield, the AOE damage and slow from Frostfield, the huge mana supply from Frostfield, the massive attack speed from Demonic, the AOE attack speed from Demonic, the AOE armor (and EHP) of Demonic, and the AOE -armor (and -EHP) that the enemy now suffers.

Cool huh?

EHP calculations ignore regen, usually. I agree that armor is still better, but when people stack HP like that they usually are looking to get a really high HP regen rather than just general survivability. It's still bad, but not as bad as you might think: :fors:

If it was purely armor vs. hp, then regen wouldn't matter because it would end up just being another multiplier. But there is magic, physical, true, and hp removal damage in the game and you can only get armor for 2 of those. Physical is your main worry when it gets to that point, yes, but if your opponents are heavy casters and you're already tiered out on magic armor it doesn't sound that bad to just stack HP. A Soul Reaper or Scout can still do heavy magic damage lategame, after all. What if they have a Pestilence with Shieldbreaker, and a Puppet Master with Harkon's? :moon:

For what it's worth, I tend to get a Sacrificial Stone or Frostwolf Skull on Devourer rather than a second or third heart(if I'm stacking HP in a pub game), simply because the extra regen is so important on a heart and you don't get that with the extras. :krak:

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 01:58 PM
My part 2 that I mentioned earlier will account for Regen, Blocking, and Evasion. Things are really busy this week but I'll try to have it next week at the latest.

If they have a Pestilence with Shieldbreaker then it is even more important to get armor to counter the minus armor.

If you're looking for an item to go with Heart, try Symbol of Rage. 475 HP and 5 armor on one item is a beast. Plus, it's almost a full health heal if you activate it at the right time.

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 02:12 PM
EHP calculations ignore regen, usually. I agree that armor is still better, but when people stack HP like that they usually are looking to get a really high HP regen rather than just general survivability. It's still bad, but not as bad as you might think: :fors:

It really is as bad as I think.

Regeneration, even from max HP based Behemoth's Heart, actually favors sacrificing HP for armor. This is because each point of HP regenerated works harder and lasts longer with ample armor. Let's factor in regen using the example of :BehemothsHeart: :BehemothsHeart: :BehemothsHeart: vs :BehemothsHeart: :FrostfieldPlate: :DaemonicBreastplate on a Hero with 111 strength, 15 armor, and no other health or regen items.

:BehemothsHeart: :BehemothsHeart: :BehemothsHeart: = 5004 HP, 15 Armor, 44 regen
:BehemothsHeart: :FrostfieldPlate: :DaemonicBreastplate = 3074 HP, 45 Armor, 27 regen

Not factoring in regen:
5004 HP -> 5004 HP and 15 armor = 9508 EHP
3074 HP -> 3074 HP and 45 armor = 11374 EHP
1866 EHP increase

15 seconds of regen:
5004 HP -> 5664 HP and 15 armor = 10762 EHP
3074 HP -> 3479 HP and 45 armor = 12872 EHP
2110 EHP increase

30 seconds of regen:
5004 HP -> 6324 HP and 15 armor = 12016 EHP
3074 HP -> 3884 HP and 45 armor = 14371 EHP
2355 EHP increase

The more you utilize your regeneration, the more the lack of regeneration pays off. Counter-intuitive but true!

Still think regen is good? ^^

=)

SmurfinBird
09-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Your in-depth posts all throughout the mechanics forums have been keeping me very interested lately, but this is by far the most worth bookmarking for in-game reference. Phenomenal work and outstanding contribution to the community.

If there was none of this to interest myself in I wouldn't play this game. I like things with rules and optimal boundaries etc.

I'll go back to lurking though, thank you for your time spent. Looking forward to the second post...

Pepperz
09-21-2011, 04:07 PM
I just saw this post, and as you have said Macro I haven't seen one before that addressed this issue as fully as you just did. This also goes to show why Ring of the Teacher is such an amazing item for the cost.

Also your EHP by armor for Fixed Health and EHP by Heath for Fixed armor graphs are somewhat misleading as to the effects of -armor. At first i thought it was actually incorrect (mostly the EHP by armor for Fixed Health), but I think it is due to the scale of the Y access of the graph. I think you should either make a positive armor graph and a negative armor graph, OR post a grid that has the numbers that were used to calculate the graph.

Actually I'd like to see the grids of the numbers regardless of whether you split the graphs. Graphs are pretty and make it easy to get a point across about a trend (ie armor being linear) but for hard calculations they are impossible to use.

You may want to also give a special shout out to mystic vestments and show how critical they really can be to get picked up early game when facing heavy magic damage dealing gankers such as pebbles.

ElementUser
09-21-2011, 04:22 PM
This is why it is *never* good to buy more than one Behemoth Heart (I still see this in some trash games).

Except maybe a Martyr.

Pepperz
09-21-2011, 04:22 PM
Except maybe a Martyr.

Or an Armadon perhaps.

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 04:44 PM
I just saw this post, and as you have said Macro I haven't seen one before that addressed this issue as fully as you just did. This also goes to show why Ring of the Teacher is such an amazing item for the cost.

Also your EHP by armor for Fixed Health and EHP by Heath for Fixed armor graphs are somewhat misleading as to the effects of -armor. At first i thought it was actually incorrect (mostly the EHP by armor for Fixed Health), but I think it is due to the scale of the Y access of the graph. I think you should either make a positive armor graph and a negative armor graph, OR post a grid that has the numbers that were used to calculate the graph.

Actually I'd like to see the grids of the numbers regardless of whether you split the graphs. Graphs are pretty and make it easy to get a point across about a trend (ie armor being linear) but for hard calculations they are impossible to use.

You may want to also give a special shout out to mystic vestments and show how critical they really can be to get picked up early game when facing heavy magic damage dealing gankers such as pebbles.

All data for all graphs is posted directly above the graph under the "table" spoilers.

EDIT: Tables were only provided for single line graphs. The section about linearity was mostly to give a visual sense and understanding, not so much of actually using it.

Pepperz
09-21-2011, 04:56 PM
Yeah I saw the table for the single line graph, but it is the multi line graphs that are somewhat misleading because of the scale of the Y access. On the EHP by armor for fixed health for example. It is very hard to tell that -50 armor decreases your effective hp by ~50% (which means you are taking 195% damage per attack, which is nearly double 'true damage'). This is because the graph goes up to like 16,000 health, which makes it hard to see that -50 armor reduces 2000 hp to an EHP of ~1000. Thats why I suggested separate graphs for positive and negative armor values, or tables that show the numbers since it is easy to see 2000 hp and -50 armor leads to an EHP of ~1000.

Edit: I guess I'm saying that the majority of your guide is focused on how stacking armor makes you tank, but I'm wanting to show how stacking -armor items can significantly increase your damage output. You have both numbers, it just the presentation of them that I'm talking about.

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 05:19 PM
Fair enough. I added tables to the EHP and Equivalency sections. As for your question about telling that -50 armor decreases EHP by 50%, please take a look at the tables and graphs under the Damage Factor section.

I also spruced up the "FAQ" post so people do not have to read thru a wall of text to find a question.

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 07:38 PM
Item tables added. See second post.

If I currently have 2000 HP and 20 Armor, and my enemy is attacking me with 150 damage, how much EHP will buying a Major Totem give me? 242 EHP.

It's also worth noting that Plated Greaves *always* gives more EHP against physical damage than Strength Steamboots, yet costs 147g less AND has faster movespeed. Unless you need the attack speed, never pick up Steamboots. +3 str, +3 agi, and +5 armor beats out +10 strength every time. Makes you wonder why so many Int heroes go that route, even in high tiers.

Zwai
09-21-2011, 08:08 PM
[...] If there was none of this to interest myself in I wouldn't play this game. I like things with rules and optimal boundaries etc. [...]

Not to toot my own horn, but um...

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=334429

:arac:

ElementUser
09-21-2011, 08:18 PM
Item tables added. See second post.

If I currently have 2000 HP and 20 Armor, and my enemy is attacking me with 150 damage, how much EHP will buying a Major Totem give me? 242 EHP.

It's also worth noting that Plated Greaves *always* gives more EHP against physical damage than Strength Steamboots, yet costs 147g less AND has faster movespeed. Unless you need the attack speed, never pick up Steamboots. +3 str, +3 agi, and +5 armor beats out +10 strength every time. Makes you wonder why so many Int heroes go that route, even in high tiers.

You can Bottle/Power Supply/Mana Battery/Consumable abuse with Steamboots stat swapping though; it's useful for regen outside of a fight (or very very key timing for swaps if you can do it that fast).

For the sake of Mechanics you can consider the EHP effects over time rather than the constant EHP effects of Plated Greaves if you want to compare them. In a teamfight however, it's usually true that Plated Greaves would be superior in terms of pure survivability.

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 08:27 PM
I just added the "Hybrid Approach" summary to the main post and FAQ. Check it out.

Zwai
09-21-2011, 08:35 PM
Item tables added. See second post.

If I currently have 2000 HP and 20 Armor, and my enemy is attacking me with 150 damage, how much EHP will buying a Major Totem give me? 242 EHP.

It's also worth noting that Plated Greaves *always* gives more EHP against physical damage than Strength Steamboots, yet costs 147g less AND has faster movespeed. Unless you need the attack speed, never pick up Steamboots. +3 str, +3 agi, and +5 armor beats out +10 strength every time. Makes you wonder why so many Int heroes go that route, even in high tiers.

Magic damage. I hinted at this in my other post, but the extra +5 armor won't help when Pyro pops out and combos you. It's less important for the 5k HP Devourer example, but raw HP combined with the ability to control your regen better by stat-swapping is why Steamboots are so common.

Though, I get Plated Greaves all the time against physical teams when I see them. I think they're underrated too.

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 08:55 PM
statement redacted

Coolcollo
09-22-2011, 09:24 PM
I still say any item with Frost in it's name is in good.

Also try to find a calculation for Frostplate's -AS which depending on the source does in pact EHP over a set period of time (if my thoughts are correctly much better than regeneration, which assumes your being attacked).

Lethe
09-23-2011, 12:38 AM
Pretty technical but regardless a good overview for anyone who doesn't know how armor work.

Some of the stuff is pretty subjective, like the suggested armor/hp chart. Games vary and one can never very accurately determine how much magic damage one will take vs. physical damage.

This does, however, show the benefit of Shrunken Head, forcing enemies to go the hard route of dealing physical dps against mass ehp.

Regarding the 1 armor = 6% EHP thing, I think a lot of people don't understand the concept of relativity. Yes, each point of armor adds 6% EHP which has no correlation with previous armor. This is a critical concept but is not understood well from posters I've read in the past. Picking up a platemail at 1000 hp grants you an additional 600 ehp worth regardless of whether you had 5 armor before the purchase or 50 armor before the purchase.

A lot of people will say '1 armor adds 6% EHP' without even realizing what that is with respect to. That is in respect to raw hp. Stacking armor later in the game gives you diminishing returns wrt your overall EHP, which can be expressed as a function of HP, armor and evasion.

Evasion is a straightforward calculation, where you can multiply the current ehp by 1/probability of evasion

Regen shouldn't be a factor in EHP calculations because it is a function of time, where as armor, hp, and evasion are not. As such it should be included in dps calculations, but not EHP calculations (that don't involved DPS calculations obviously).

Blocking is rather negligible in EHP calculations as well since the damage block is for all intents and purposes static, yet the DPS of an attacking hero will vary. So it is also not worth mentioning in EHP calculations not involving dps.

Nice work overall.

MacroHard
09-23-2011, 01:31 AM
A lot of people will say '1 armor adds 6% EHP' without even realizing what that is with respect to. That is in respect to raw hp. Stacking armor later in the game gives you diminishing returns wrt your overall EHP, which can be expressed as a function of HP, armor and evasion.

Armor has zero diminishing returns against physical damage, regardless of any pre-existing health, armor, and evasion.

The benefit is perfectly linear under all circumstances.

Lethe
09-23-2011, 01:42 AM
Armor has zero diminishing returns against physical damage, regardless of any pre-existing health, armor, and evasion.

The benefit is perfectly linear under all circumstances.

Using a fairly generic example, if I have 1000 hp and 10 armor, and add another 10 armor, I have gained another 600 ehp, but my ehp gain as a multiplicated factor relative to my 10 armor is 1.375 (2200/1600), it is not 1.6 (a common misconception).

So in that respect yes it is diminishing.

MacroHard
09-23-2011, 01:48 AM
Using a fairly generic example, if I have 1000 hp and 10 armor, and add another 10 armor, I have gained another 600 ehp, but my ehp gain as a multiplicated factor relative to my 10 armor is 1.375 (2200/1600), it is not 1.6 (a common misconception).

So in that respect yes it is diminishing.

In that case, Health, Mana, Attack Speed, Attack Damage, Health Regen, and Mana Regen are also diminishing. In fact, every attribute in the entire game has diminishing returns.

Going from 1000 health to 1600 health is a 60% increase. But going from 1600 health to 2200 health is a 37.5% increase.
Going from 1000 mana to 1600 mana is a 60% increase. But going from 1600 mana to 2200 mana is a 37.5% increase.
Going from 100 damage to 160 damage is a 60% increase. But going from 160 damage to 220 damage is a 37.5% increase.

etc etc

Lethe
09-23-2011, 01:58 AM
Yet it is a critical aspect that is often overlooked when it shouldn't be.

There are probably so many people that still think SB's -36% EHP reduction means that they are dealing 36% more damage to the target.

Yes, every aspect can have diminishing returns, but it is more crucial to armor then it is to something like, say, mana regen. People don't understand how armor works despite it being a very important factor later in the game and a mechanic they can use to their advantage. In fact I recall Anakha posting a thread in mechanics inquiring if Pest's +10% damage from flight was equivalent to a -armor of 1.67 or something like that.

Dunno about you but I've told people on more than one occasion, 'no, SB against Jere's ult doesn't do jack ****'.

Anakha
09-25-2011, 02:23 PM
It would be if it was pre-, not post-.

MacroHard
09-27-2011, 02:30 PM
I just added two new sections:

Offensive Damage Amplification
Identifies the "sweet spot" where armor reducing items and spells have the biggest effect.

"Diminishing" Returns of EHP
Shows how increasing EHP becomes less noticeable even though it increases linearly.

I also completely overhauled the format. Just added a Table of Contents with internal links, indenting, and more aesthetic lists. Check it out! <3

Elen
10-01-2011, 03:01 PM
This is a goldmine for any serious player. Great work.

inyomouth
10-07-2011, 06:14 PM
Good guide. As a veteran EVE player, I thought EHP was taken for granted as well.

Antimodus
10-23-2011, 07:55 PM
there are several variables that can't be accounted for, you don't know how many heals are going to get thrown at you, and the exact mixture of physical/magic/true damage thrown at you. but generally if you have any active healing abilities and/or regeneration at your disposal, it tends to further favor armor/magic armor instead of additional HP (it shifts the line where adding to each stat is equally gold-efficient)

Then there are certain things like Vindicator's true damage orb and Predator 7% HP life draining attack, that can further skew the balance one way or another.

MacroHard
10-24-2011, 11:36 PM
there are several variables that can't be accounted for, you don't know how many heals are going to get thrown at you, and the exact mixture of physical/magic/true damage thrown at you. but generally if you have any active healing abilities and/or regeneration at your disposal, it tends to further favor armor/magic armor instead of additional HP (it shifts the line where adding to each stat is equally gold-efficient)

Then there are certain things like Vindicator's true damage orb and Predator 7% HP life draining attack, that can further skew the balance one way or another.

Predator's Carnivorous is double favorable towards armor... it does physical damage AND deals more damage based on total health. <3

But yes, there is much, much more that goes into it. The true intent of this guide is for people to get a general understanding that armor is indeed useful. It is unfortunate that it sometimes stays forgotten even at 1700+ level play.

o0ski
11-03-2011, 09:28 AM
Thank you for very interesting reading!

MLG_PawnStar
11-15-2011, 03:49 PM
wow very good. My friend likes to play pubs where he goes tanky builds on big heroes (balph/kraken etc) I always tell him to get armor but he likes stacking health a lot more. I will refer him to this.

very informative! thanks :)

YEPMAD
01-20-2012, 06:07 PM
Too much math :(

MacroHard
01-23-2012, 04:33 PM
Added new section: Optimization and Adjustments for Scaling Magic Damage

This section factors in magic damage in a much more practical manner than before. The old method assumed a fixed magic damage amount (ie, 1000 damage). This new section takes magic damage as a percentage of total incoming damage (ie, 25%). I feel this is a more appropriate assumption to make. For example, early game damage sources may be 75% or more magical based. Late game damage sources may be 25% magical or less as the carries begin to satisfy the dps role.

I also added an example for how to use read/use of the optimization graphs.

Syllab
11-30-2012, 06:30 AM
Question, I find this on the official playdota website, and I thought the armor system was based on it so here goes:

It is generally conceived that armor gets less and less effective the more you have (since the extra damage reduction gets less and less). That a Plate Mail gives you less extra protection from attacks if you already have 20 armor than if you would have only 5. This is false. If one Plate Mail makes the hero survive 3 extra attacks, then 4 Plate Mails will make the hero survive a total of 12 extra attacks before dying. Each Plate Mail gives the same amount of extra protection, which is in this case 3 more attacks before dying.



Proof:
Consider a hero with 1000 hp and 0 armor. To kill it one needs to deal at least 1000 damage to it.


If we give the hero 10 armor, which is 37.5% damage reduction, every attack would only deal 62.5% of the original value (100% - 37.5% = 62.5%). To kill it now, one needs to deal 1600 damage (1600 * 0.625 = 1000). You could say that the hero now have 600 more effective hp (EHP).


If we instead give the hero 20 armor, which is 54.5% damage reduction. The damage multiplier is now 45.5%. The damage needed to kill would increase to 2200 (2200 * 0.455 = 1000). The increase in EHP is 1200, twice the amount as given by only 10 armor.


Every armor point adds an additional 6% of your maximum HP to your EHP.
So is this right, wrong, or a different system entirely?

ElementUser
11-30-2012, 08:14 AM
It's repeating a part which has already been covered in the main post, namely the "linear benefits" of armor portion. This is pretty much the same thing as the "Effective Health and the Linearity of Armor" subheading.

Syllab
11-30-2012, 10:32 AM
Ah my bad, I just read the part about diminishing returns of EHP.

sabuk
01-25-2013, 02:00 AM
wow so much details

D`A`D`D`Y`
02-03-2013, 06:48 AM
So, based on this info: regardless of how much hp you have, Helm of Black Legion ALWAYS add more EHP than the +10 armor of Platemail?

SmurfinBird
02-03-2013, 08:00 AM
So, based on this info: regardless of how much hp you have, Helm of Black Legion ALWAYS add more EHP than the +10 armor of Platemail?

...No?

It's also good to compare the costs of health items to the gold cost if you want a proper answer.

D`A`D`D`Y`
02-07-2013, 04:38 PM
There have been a lot of changes to HoN since MacroHard made this guide in September 2011. I believe the HoBL had changed it's mechanic (from percentage chance to block to a static block based on charges) in the time since he made this guide. I wonder how that impacts whether it is a better buy than platemail (excluding cost considerations. I'm purely looking at how I could maximize an item slot).

I also believe that Icon of The Goddess also dramatically changed in that time frame.

Is there any way to get updated "Item EHP Tables" ? Or, at least, can these two items could be address?

D`A`D`D`Y`
04-24-2013, 06:21 AM
Thanks for your time.

How much does Mystic Vestments increase EHP? Of course this would be variable, depending on whether you expect to receive majorly magic damage, or physical damage. I'm trying to get a better understanding of the circumstances when it's more useful to buy magic armor instead going for raw HP. Maybe you have a separate thread on this topic, somewhere?

Anyway, the closest I came to figuring out the answer to this was by looking under "Optimization and Adjustments for Scaling Magic Damage."
I looked at the graph you have labeled, "Optimal Armor by Health for Scaling Magic Damage." I just seek clarification with respect to how I'm reading it. I think that graph may answer my questions if I am indeed reading it accurately.

I know that this graph is designed to tell you how much physical armor is most efficient, per a set game dynamic. However, I believe that it might also be capable of illustrating the EHP impact of purchasing magic armor. Let me explain how I see it:


Look at the dark-blue "X = .75M M=5.5" line, and then the medium-blue "X = .75M M=10.5" line. The first obviously reflects a hero that doesn't have mystic vestments, and the second reflects the same hero after purchasing mystic vestments.
Also recognize that these lines reflect a scenario where the individual expects a somewhat heavy barrage of magic damage (X= .75).
For sake of ease, maintain that the person will have 3 physical armor. It makes sense to assume that if he had 3 physical armor before purchasing the mystic vestments, he would still have 3 physical armor after the purchase.
He currently has 1500 hp at the time that he is considering this purchase.
So, how much would the mystic vestments increase his EHP?

I believe this graph indicates that 1500 HP of 10.5 magic armor would provide the equivalent amount of protection as ~1750 HP of 5.5 magic armor.
In other words, this graph indicates that mystic vestments increased his EHP by about 250 HP. Correct?

I came to that conclusion by looking at the Physical Armor level of 3 on the Y axis. (Remember, he has 3 physical armor regardless of whether he purchases more magic armor or not.) This is a dude who has 1500 hp at the time that he is considering this purchase. I ran my finger along that line, horizontally to the right, until I got to 1500 HP on the medium-blue "X = .75M M=10.5" line. If I continue to the right, I see that the dark-blue "X = .75M M=5.5" line reaches the equivalent level of protection (it reaches that same Y-axis height) only once the person's health is about 1750 HP (or slightly less). So it appears that the mystic vestments purchase provides him nearly 250 additional EHP versus this heavy-magic team. Correct?

AtheistGod
04-24-2013, 08:55 AM
Magic Armor works the exact same way as Armor. Your EHP against 100% magic damage is HP * ( 1 + 0.06 * Magic Armor ).

SmurfinBird
04-24-2013, 10:44 AM
...for positive values!

D`A`D`D`Y`
04-24-2013, 01:52 PM
AthiestGod, I recognize that. Except we are never fighting against a team of 100% magic damage.

So I'm trying find some conversion chart or graph that can approximate the EHP impact of buying magic armor, when versus different enemy team types (ranging from nearly purely physical dmg teams, to nearly-full nuker teams). I believe that the chart I referenced is able to do this. So I'm asking MacroHard or anyone else whether I am reading it correctly.

This whole thread is dedicated to explaining the effectiveness tradeoff of buying physical armor items vs buying more HP. However, I wish to explore the effectiveness tradeoff between buying magic armor instead of buying more HP. I believe that this can be done indirectly, by using the graph that I reference and the method that I described.

In the scenario I described, I concluded that the graphs indicate that, versus a 75% nuker team, buying magic armor increased the hero's EHP by a little less than 250. I know that beastheart technically provides a bit more than 250 EHP (review the "Item EHP Tables" that Macrohard posted on 9-19-2011), but nontheless mystic vestments is a whopping 700g cheaper. So ultimately, in that scenario, it would be more cost efficient for the hero to purchase mystic vestments rather than buying a beastheart for more HP.

If MaroHard could make another graph, dedicated to magic armor benefits to EHP, that would be awesome. However, if he is too busy to do that, or until he does, I believe that the graph I referenced may do us some good, if it is read in the way that I described. I ask the mechanics readership whether you believe I'm reading the graph accurately for my purposes.

Rosvall
06-10-2013, 12:13 PM
If MaroHard could make another graph, dedicated to magic armor benefits to EHP, that would be awesome. However, if he is too busy to do that, or until he does, I believe that the graph I referenced may do us some good, if it is read in the way that I described. I ask the mechanics readership whether you believe I'm reading the graph accurately for my purposes.

Magic armor follows the same formula as regular armor though. So just check out 5.5 armor (6 for some heroes) and +5.