Hellbourne Behemoth pulling ancients strat, supperior XP

[GOSUNESS]

1: Make sure your on team Hellbourne

2: Pick behe

3: Go bot lane,tell a m8 to get hero for solo laning, preferebly hero with escape mechanism (hag,bub,valk) but other work fine to, depending on who you are facing.

4: as Behe go wait at ancients, stack it at 53-54

5: Stand in this possition and block as so. If done correct, you should block lane number 3.
http://img683.imageshack.us/edit_preview.php?l=img683/3818/shot0002rd.jpg&action=rotate

6: Move fast to ancients and pull straight up towards laning creeps walking your way.

http://img88.imageshack.us/edit_preview.php?l=img88/645/shot0003qy.jpg&action=rotate


7: Deny creeps from lane and continue process your lane mate should be able to pull the legion creeps past tower and get solo xp, meenwhile you make sure that no hellbourne creeps get past your tower.

8: Use currier to get mana pots and a ward, use the ward too look out for gangs aginst you. beware of miss mid etc.

9:when ancients die and you have nothing to do becuse you cant pull. Go gang mid and get that fb.

Special thanks to: Balls`n`nuts and makeana and me GOSUNESS :D

PEACE :behe:

ps. try and last hit ancients for money ofc.

[Drasha]

This ruins the game for the other team and may actually be reportable as greifing.

I don't recommend this.

[Juk3z]

LOL´S i think i wanna see some s2 rules on this, same as pulling lane creeps, i say make patch to fix, so far so good i think it is legal.
issent the game about getting an atvantage, u use mana and skills to do it + you get underlvl´d although a m8 gets your lvls.
Explane plz what the difernce is between lane pulling and this, go kill behe or block ancients, its not hard.

[Ratard]

You could easily counter this... No way its griefing

[Juk3z]

damn straight it aint.

[Emin3m]

This ruins the game for the other team and may actually be reportable as greifing.

I don't recommend this.

wait what ? gonna be grief becuz i use an ability of an hero to pull a lane ?
so im gonna get grief becuz i pulled mid ? making the other team not able to do **** ? This got no sense. being grief becuz i found a way to make u 0 xp.

it was intended or you would fix it by removing a couple of tree making unable to do it!


fix it or it's intended!

[Valtieri]

Personal opinion incoming:

This should *not* be reportable as griefing. I'm unsure whether it actually is or not, but in my opinion this should fall under "clever use of game mechanics," not griefing. If S2 doesn't intend it to be possible (which they shouldn't, it is most definitely a map imbalance), they should fix it. I don't claim to know how they should fix it, but that's not really my job... as a player, it's up to me to find and abuse the best tactics, as in the long run it helps work towards all players' common goal of overall balance.

Do I agree that it's an imbalance that should be fixed? Absolutely, 100%
Should players be reportable for practicing this tactic? Absolutely not. It's no more "griefing" than backdooring, and should be fixed if it's not intended.

[Juk3z]

Dont do anything about it, its awesome! people adjust and its fine, if people are stpid then they can learn.

[Lucifer]

Really dumb post from Drasha

[KillerShadow]

Problem is guys, this guy is a global morderator, I think he knows what he is talking about
Sucks tho, I wanna try this

[Juk3z]

he does not, go try it. im sure its alovable

[Valtieri]

Problem is guys, this guy is a global morderator, I think he knows what he is talking about
Sucks tho, I wanna try this

If he's correct, making it a reportable offense is an example of S2 applying a pretty crappy "band-aid" fix to something that could be fixed as easily as widening the lane by a few pixels.

[YawningAngel]

This ruins the game for the other team and may actually be reportable as greifing.

I don't recommend this.
Personal opinion, but this looks like a tactic to me. Not an intended tactic, and one that will probably be fixed soon, but it's not exploiting any bugs that I can think of.

[chronozeal]

If S2 wanted something to be illegal they would program it to not work in the game... such as not being able to kill barracks untill the towers before them are dead. stacking creeps is stupid anyway its abusing the fact that the creeps are programed to only respawn with no units in the area..it should be programmed to respawn a certain time after the specific units that spawned there died.

[Valtieri]

Stacking creeps is an integral part of certain strategies and probably should be left alone. Legionnaire jungling comes to mind.

[Drasha]

There have been multiple attempts to make it impossible to pull the lane into the ancients. If you note the fence in with the trees this was one of the ways to prevent it.

I am not saying you will get in trouble for this. I am just giving fair warning that you could since it is not intended.

As for this being a legit start it is some thing only the hellbourne can do and completely denies the legion a lane. Its not comparable to lane pulling normal stacks since both sides can do it and you can counter normal creep pulls with a ward.

[SinZ]

This is so gay. Time for another fix. =/

[Valtieri]

Could they not fix it by widening the lane marginally, or even creating a small (very small) path through the trees at the one particular choke point where this works?

Perhaps even small enough that creeps, but not heroes, could pass through, thus removing any use as a possible juke-spot and not affecting map balance further than necessary? I'm not familiar with creep vs hero collision size, just thinking out loud here.

[Juk3z]

you can counter ancients with a ward??? you can just gang the lvl 1 behe.
+ you get an underlvled behe.
I think you can do the same actually with behe on legion side in the midlle, just blocking them to neutral first camp.
Actually im sure you can.
Gg arguments

[Drasha]

you can't counter ancients with a ward. Behemoth still gets xp and gold from ancients dieing. It might be possible to fix this by adding a juke spot for the creeps to take will look into it.

You can't do it with legion i just tested. Also only one team can have behemoth.

Edit: it wouldn't actually be possible to fix with a juke path since you can put the wall after the trees and still block. The only fix with out majorly changing the map would be to just make creeps not argo ancients there or in general.

[Lucifer]

What ? Ancients can't be blocked with a ward ?
(after testing you most definitely can block ancients with a ward)

also just because you can't do it as legion doesn't mean it's not doable ;O
(actually after testing i suspect you're right)

Edit; tested

[mufasa]

There have been multiple attempts to make it impossible to pull the lane into the ancients. If you note the fence in with the trees this was one of the ways to prevent it.

I am not saying you will get in trouble for this. I am just giving fair warning that you could since it is not intended.

As for this being a legit start it is some thing only the hellbourne can do and completely denies the legion a lane. Its not comparable to lane pulling normal stacks since both sides can do it and you can counter normal creep pulls with a ward.

Now I get where you are going, but hellbourne can pull the mid lane (probably not intended either) as well as having a second pull spawn in their woods, so lane equity really isn't the case anyway.

[Drasha]

hm my bad i could have sworn you couldn't counter ward the ancient spawn.

[Lucifer]

legion top lane can have their creeps bypass the first tower repeatedly by fissuring
hellbourne can pull to ancients by fissuring

fair trade
if other team picks behe you should just keep these two strategies in mind and respond accordingly

(none of this is new)

[Valtieri]

So a juke-spot in conjunction with a slight widening of the lane wouldn't work? I mean, the fissure is only so long, if the lane were widened much at all, OR if the juke spot went deep enough into the woods, he couldn't block it AND the lane.

[Mr_Rogers]

I always thought this intended as just part of the hellborne advantage? Kinda along the same lines as the extra path into legion jungle. /sarcasm , but I am serious as well, there is an obvious bias for hellborne side of the map it has always existed and s2 changes have only exasperated it.

[Drasha]

So a juke-spot in conjunction with a slight widening of the lane wouldn't work? I mean, the fissure is only so long, if the lane were widened much at all, OR if the juke spot went deep enough into the woods, he couldn't block it AND the lane.
It would be possible to make it harder to do but not possible to prevent with out seriously altering the lane. you can block from the river to the cliff so jukes can't really by pass it. of course when you do that you don't really have much time to run up and pull the ancients but a second person or minion would make it do able.

[Anakha]

From the non-behe end of the fissure, the one to the right of the tree gets deleted - and the one above it gets pushed to the right more to sit flush against the rest of the forest. fixed.

[GOSUNESS]

DEAR DRASHA,
Mr suck out the fun of stuff. It is totaly balanced and it is possible to do the same if you are legion. you just need a hatchet and woods. then you can pull the legion creeps spawn below the yellow camp.
To make it even more of a stat ****up you can have a wooder as legion helping you and thuss helping him and then you can have 3 solo lanes.
you just block from the small assembly of trees and either shoot creeps with hatchet or get someone like temp to pull it out for you, this can be done either every minut or 3 secs denying entire legion mid lane or helping temp farm pk fast.

[GOSUNESS]

legion top lane can have their creeps bypass the first tower repeatedly by fissuring
hellbourne can pull to ancients by fissuring

fair trade
if other team picks behe you should just keep these two strategies in mind and respond accordingly

(none of this is new)


its true and almost the only good thing in this tread.

[BigPimpinIt]

I was going to say even if you widen the pathing a little the bot solo hero can still stand in that couple pixle creep juke spot and there for block it still.

[Drasha]

From the non-behe end of the fissure, the one to the right of the tree gets deleted - and the one above it gets pushed to the right more to sit flush against the rest of the forest. fixed.
http://i.imgur.com/Cflc9.jpg

[GOSUNESS]

why? agian, why is fix needed tell med plz?

wards work yeah, gang behe issent hard
stop being fools

[Drasha]

Ganking the behemoth is pretty much suicide. you are way deep in the hellbourne area and it would be childs play for mid and the other hero in the lane to counter gank and kill you horribly not to mention the fact that behemoth can easily retreat to a tower.

The game is simply not balanced around people pulling that ancient spawn.

[Boatmurdered]

Just tried this to see how it worked. It works pretty well, and def gave an advantage early game, but we had a non English warbeast, and a semi retarded plague so we ended up losing anyway. I also received about 20 threats of people saying they were going to report me, and get me banned, and that they totally worked for S2. So take what you will from that.

[GOSUNESS]

Ganking the behemoth is pretty much suicide. you are way deep in the hellbourne area and it would be childs play for mid and the other hero in the lane to counter gank and kill you horribly not to mention the fact that behemoth can easily retreat to a tower.

The game is simply not balanced around people pulling that ancient spawn.

you seem to missunderstand at will, plz tell how the hell a lvl 1 behe retreats to tower, when lvl 6 doc or even a lvl 6 emp comes to gang him from mid. if your midder dies there is plenty of room for a gang. not to mention just placing the ward, for... wait what... only 100 gold!
it works fine, both if your legion or if you are hellbourne.
Balanced in every way, its just rly op if you play 1600+ cause people are tards and even if you have, myrm,vj,glace and andro on team thats no garantee you will get wards.

[MegaMan_X`]

This ruins the game for the other team and may actually be reportable as greifing.

I don't recommend this.

How on earth can you grief the other team.

Or rather, isn't the whole point of the game to grief the other team?

[AntiHeadShot]

nice mods

[Drasha]

you seem to missunderstand at will, plz tell how the hell a lvl 1 behe retreats to tower, when lvl 6 doc or even a lvl 6 emp comes to gang him from mid. if your midder dies there is plenty of room for a gang. not to mention just placing the ward, for... wait what... only 100 gold!
it works fine, both if your legion or if you are hellbourne.
Balanced in every way, its just rly op if you play 1600+ cause people are tards and even if you have, myrm,vj,glace and andro on team thats no garantee you will get wards.
Please tell me how to do it with legion.

[Tay_z0nday]

This is so unfair... keep those ways to win in dota 2 plz...

[didderz]

You can pull into the ancients without behemoth.There are a few additional pulls I haven't seen posted on the forums before that are possible, you just need to muck around and become creative with certain heroes(Besides behemoth) and their skills.

[ElGuapo]

Ganking the behemoth is pretty much suicide. you are way deep in the hellbourne area and it would be childs play for mid and the other hero in the lane to counter gank and kill you horribly not to mention the fact that behemoth can easily retreat to a tower.

The game is simply not balanced around people pulling that ancient spawn.

as a GM you really need to be more careful about what you say and not talk if you don't know what you're talking about. in NO WAY is this bannable or reportable.

[Rosgath]

Please tell me how to do it with legion.

They're referring to bypassing the first Hellbourne tower by fissuring so that they go through the jungle instead of the lane. Not pulling ancients.

[didderz]

This ruins the game for the other team and may actually be reportable as greifing.

I don't recommend this.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=450031&postcount=9

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=450047&postcount=12

:)

[d4bidden]

I guess being able to pull ancients to mid lane on legion side is exploit too?

Pulling hellborn hard camp to mid lane is exploit too?

Pulling hard camp to top lane and legion is exploit too?

[Drasha]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=450031&postcount=9

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=450047&postcount=12

:)
Some one did some digging. I never said i wasn't a fan of it since it is really fun to do. The fact still stands that the map has been changed specifically to prevent this.

No more discussion of this being ok or not to do. This thread has been derailed enough.

[ArnoldRimmer]

I made a post a long time ago showing how you could stack ancients by cutting down the trees in that area in a very similar fashion. Guess what? **** was nerfed and they added like 30x more trees and even added a cliff.

You aren't meant to pull ancients from that lane. Not sure about it being categorized as griefing. I agree that it is though.

[TheHammer3]

This ruins the game for the other team and may actually be reportable as greifing.

I don't recommend this.

You have to be trolling....

[oesis3]

I'm just putting this out there you can pull creeps to ancient camps on both hellborn and legion sides. It's just on the legion side you have to pull to mid.

[Octavia]

I wonder when people will realise you can ancient pull by hooking an ancient into your tower with :devo:

[GOSUNESS]

Please tell me how to do it with legion.

block from mid by first tower, run down to hard camp that you stacked, toss your hatchet at em from max range and run north, deny wawe = denyed lane mid + win

[HonkHonkBeep]

Expect typical S2 response to this problem:


We won't fix it, but if you use it, we'll ban you (legionaire double attack).

[oesis3]

The way I pull to legion side, is pulling the ancients past the top ramp, then you wall them in with fissure, this makes them go all the way around,which makes them run by the creeps pulling them, if you do it at right time, you can pull ancients to mid and stack them at same time.

[Ryuusan]

Wouldn't a quick fix be for ancients not be able to get aggro'd by creeps and creeps unable to attack ancients? I mean they shouldn't be attacking legion/hb creeps at any time in the game really, so I don't think it will mess up anything.

Though it won't stop fissures form making creeps take the long way around, but at that point it'll just have both creeps run into each tower so even trade kinda.

[apm120]

just push the lane when this happens and take tower quick

[GOSUNESS]

just push the lane when this happens and take tower quick
indeed!

[Mankrik]

just push the lane when this happens and take tower quick

That's not how it works. The distance between the hellbourne first and second tower in bottom lane is miniscule and is *entirely* protected from any sort of approach. The solo hero runs into aggro range of the legion creep wave, then books it backwards. Then he either kites the creeps around while the second tower kills them, or he pulls them into the next hellbourne creepwave which has spawned. Now you have the usual creep waves attacking each other, but the legion side can't get in experience range.

The reason lego cutting the lane pushes quickly is because he's in the way of this method. You can't simply grab the enemy creep wave and then pull it backwards, because you'll run into him while he spins like crazy. The short lanes are also designed differently on a very fundamental level; they have dozens of juke/fog locations and a significant number of entrances. The hellbourne bottom lane has one way in and out. It's also on a direct route for the hellbourne mid hero, unlike the legion side's top lane which has multiple entrances and a very circuitous, time-wasting and juke-friendly layout. Seriously, imagine trying to lane cut as legionnaire on the hellbourne bottom lane. Legion top lane would be nearly as bad. It's almost laughable to consider. That's how difficult it would be to apply pressure to the solo hero while behemoth is pulling.

I am very confused how people are saying "omg they're gonna have to patch this soon." You've been able to do this since beta. It's incredibly dick and it's not fair to the legion side, but this has nothing to do with some hero or map change. It's always been like this. And behe has always been one of the most effective at ancient pulling, though deadwood/tundra/devo have been able to do it off and on for a while as well.

[erynSMASH]

I am fairly sure with specific rulings in certain tournaments. Behemoth is forbidden to block creep waves and issues a game lost. As for stacking creeps, S2 has allowed people to do this. I have seen a Soul Reaper (twice) just stay at ancients stacking and nuking them down with his heal at lvl 1.

As for the suggestions of not allowing creeps to attack ancients in general it would be interesting to see how that went. Due to strategies and techniques.

Example: Let's just say for example, someone goes 2v1 and kills the other 2 players, their life is fairly low --bottom lane and creeps are chasing them especially Catapults and Ranged Creeps people can die to creeps and give the other player get a kill if timing is beneficial to those who last hit him before death or escaping. In this situation people can bring those creeps to the ancients to avoid death and or being followed by someone else and providing sight.
This is also stating the player didn't carry a TP on them. Yet this is situational, it is still a major part of strategy.

It is abusive with behemoths stun, but I am fairly sure it is not legal in tournament matches.

[JLawBro]

The only fix with out majorly changing the map would be to just make creeps not argo ancients there or in general.

I think this is quite logical, since this scenario is the only one I can think of where lane creeps would ever meet either sides ancient stack. Implement now!

[Mankrik]

I have seen a Soul Reaper (twice) just stay at ancients stacking and nuking them down with his heal at lvl 1.

Soul reaper kills ancients from level 1 via stacking them and standing in aura range, not by using his nuke. His nuke is a massive amount of mana and heals for like 40 at rank 1.

[Leetard]

OP, why do your trees look like that? also, gotta try this out in some try hard 1800 mmr games

[man_guy]

Personal opinion, but this looks like a tactic to me. Not an intended tactic, and one that will probably be fixed soon, but it's not exploiting any bugs that I can think of.

Probably fixed soon? Who are you kidding?


Instead of the stupid fence that only fixed it for Deadwood, they should have just made lane creeps not aggro ancients. Behemoth isn't the only one who can still pull ancients. Just line this one up on the shelf next to the things that aren't: release a new hero and skin every two weeks and rotate the free heroes.

[rnz`]

u can do this with tundra as well--> cut trees there pull ancients and thats it