PSR, am I doing anything wrong?

[Succumb]

Ok so I've been playing this for about 250-300 games. I must admit I started as a pretty big scrub as it's been years and years since I played DotA. At first I thought nothing of the PSR and just wanted some games, now I've got the feeling I'm stuck though.

I'm stuck between 1500-1600 PSR. I never seem to go below or above in the last 150 or so games and it's infuriating. In games I win I've more than often felt like I had to make the difference quite often having a level gap of 5+ between me and my teammembers. Either that or it's a full-on teamrape, never that close, never that satisfying. So far it's alright.

But when I lose for example with tempest dragging 4 heroes in while 2-3 of my allies stand by scratching their balls and run away when it ends leaving me to die makes me pull my hair out. Especially when after that happening 4 times they winch about me feeding.
These comments come from people with a negative win ratio and a negative K/D ratio (big ones in some cases) yet PSR ratings of 1600-1800. I've played this evening with a chronos who used chrono field on one melee opponent while me (legio) and a ranged in close range were stuck in. 2 of us stunned, instead of getting the kill chronos runs off, 2 ranged enemy heroes move in and kill us while stunned by chronos.


All in all I wonder what errors I'm making. Should I go pure statwhore (which I despise) and just killsteal during matches. Should I go for games where I get impossible odds and get a a +50/-5 risk and hope I win every 4-5 times and gain PSR like that?
I'm no hardcore player, I'm no pro but I do want to advance. I feel at times my teamwork (tempest example) is wasted on pubs and I'm stuck in the same bracket right now. My online mates stick to FPS games so no help there.


Any tips, similiar expierences or any rage to vent? Feel free to post. And I know I'm a noob/scrub/idiot/etc so keep the obvious comments aside please.

[Rawrior]

I got 2k PSR purely playing in solo pubs. I am not a statwhore.

[Volt]

Even though it may seem like you're a scrub, your probably aren't. The majority of HoN players have never actually played DotA and don't understand many of the common sense tactics most people should know.

I notice more and more people play this game for the sake of griefing if not to attempt to play the game. After their precious Scout hero is picked away from them in the first few seconds people get pissy and just act like dicks.

If you play DotA the same people that would play like **** would just leave, in HoN they care about leaver ratio because it MATTERS. Instead they stay around and make your game suck by feeding, when you could easily 4v5 without them.

Just my 2 cents. I'm stuck in the same situation you are.

[Droggeltasse]

Its so horrible when your teammates do such stupid things one of the last matches i played was a game with 1600 guys who wanted to push mid every time all enemys are in the fog and blamed the team every time they got killed this way.
The first tip is play non -em i play often em but this stupidity is what drives me into non em games now cause there is the laning phase longer and not so much crazy guys. First i thought talk as much as possible and give them hints helps but thats not the case after i told the 5th time back and they dont got killed and got 2 of the 5 gankers they told me i should stop to call back when its not needed ignoring the 5 times they died before.
And try to find the highest games you can join if your psr is 1600 join 1600+ if your psr is 1650 join 1650+ this makes it least common to get a team that ruines everything.

[Konsume]

I was stucked like you playing heroes such as: tempest, shaman, pollywog (support....)

I decided it was time for me to carry.... and i'm now running in the 1650ish! ;)

[Succumb]

Well shaman is going quite well in most games but it's mostly about picks. I've had too many expierences with people picking 3-4 carriers in total so I wait it out, see what's needed.

9 out of 10 times proper support is needed though. I don't want to be that guy going for the carry in the first 2 seconds of the picks without talking with other peeps. Even though the majority doesn't seem to communicate back at all about their picks....

I forgot to mention I almost solely play SD. The reason behind this was so I could learn all the heroes one by one. At first I was completely overwhelmed by the ammount of heroes and their abilities, right now however I feel I've got a pretty good feel as to what I should expect from my enemies and what item build goes well with what heroes depending on the situation.

Is a switch to AP perhaps in order or does it make no difference?

[IPlayForKeep]

It can be difficult to raise your PSR with pubs, ofr instance I have over 500 games and I'm not even at 1700+ yet, but I'm getting mine up because I play with my clan. You should consider joining TGM which is the Training Ground clan.
In all honesty though do not worry to much about PSR it doesn't represent your skill level and will most likely be reset after beta.

[Khaos`]

Your PSR shouldn't really change that drastically, it's just how good you are. I've been trying to get to 1900 for weeks, but I'm always just under it.

I don't care about K:D stats, obviously.

[Epoch]

Congrats, you have found that PSR is working just fine, your PSR is 1500-1600. Thats it. Your win % should be about 50%.

There is no shame in it, its just the level you are at.

[Germeson]

just go ahead and matches played : 800 , here we go , you rape.

[`Cherry`]

be happy, i'm stuck between 1350 to 1450 even tho that my stats aren't of that level =( i just keep losing games over and over again >.<

[Succumb]

Well that's the problem. I don't have the feeling at all I'm at level 1500-1600. In games I lose I've been putting in my best making a difference but idle teammates/leavers/feeders or just complete noobs undo all the work. In games I win I had to make the difference more often than not. I feel like most of the teams I team up with are dragging me down.
I also get the idea that the ammount of teamwork goes up around 1600+, at least I had a few games where people would actually discuss picks, communicate ingame and alike. Perhaps it might be easier to find your way up from there. Of course I can't tell for sure.

I know I come across as an elitist prick like this but after about 7-8 years in gaming in both FPS/RTS and games alike I've got a pretty good feeling of my potential and areas of improvement. I know I can improve but I need to face better opponents with better teammates. I keep getting beat on teamwork (by the enemy) but that's not something I can work on by myself.

With FPS games for instance I can spot my flaws and work on them. Teamwork wise I can work on it with my clan yet I do not have that in HoN. All in all it's not that I'm afraid people will think "omfg a noob, PSR <1600", it's the fact that I want a new challenge and an opportunity to improve myself. I was hoping there was another way of doing it than joining a clan since when I start something I want to fully commit and I don't have that much time.

That being said: this TGM clan, do they have any kind of link or a topic on this forum? I'd be interested to join with a solid group where my input would compliment the team effort more and visa versa. I should note that I'm european though, my english is fine even though it isn't my native language.

[Shadowcamsy]

Get some friends

... maybe I should word that better :P

A lot of team play comes from knowing what your teammates are going to do in certain situations i.e. when they are going to use their stun/disable/nuke and when they are going to go back (25% health or full health and oom). To get a good grasp of teamplay you have to establish a group of friends who you play with regularly. Next time you get along with someone really well in a game just add them to your friends list and ask them if they want to play another game. If they don't well no harm done, if they do, great, you've just expanded your HoN network.

TGM will be a great start for you to develop your team skills, in higher level games it's completely impossible to win by yourself, you have to work as a team, whether you're a carry hero or support. To join TGM just send a message to Anari or DenyTheTruth in-game, as found here: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=30778

[Heridshire]

I think a big problem of PSR is that its a too unidimensional parameter of evaluation. For instance, consider both sides have players around 1650 PSR, without a big variation. But in one side, all the K:D ratios are bigger than 1,2; and on the other, all the K:D are less than 0,8. Are the odds of 50-50 real? I think not.

Other problem is the teamwork. Think about the same situation, both sides with PSR around 1650, but now both sides with K:D around 1,2. But one side is full of friends. In fact, only friends. Again, are the odds of 50-50 representing reality?

I think any game that has locks as restrictions to balance suffers inbalancing. Duh. But the point is that if I understood correctly what the Quick Play is, it could solve this problem. There would be no locks, and in a long-term thinking, you wouldn't win PSR carried by a much stronger player friend of yours. It would just actually represent your real strenght.

[Jackaruu]

These comments come from people with a negative win ratio and a negative K/D ratio (big ones in some cases) yet PSR ratings of 1600-1800.
Err...Not possible? PSR is determined by how much you win/lose. Pretty sure you need to be about 50/50 to be ~1550.

Anyway, the more games you play the more accurate your PSR will get. So if you truly are a better player than your PSR indicates you should just play more games.

[mrgoldfarb]

Picking support is an exercise in futility in low psr games. You can be the best support in the world but if the only people you can support are 1500-1600 psr players it will not get you very far.
Err...Not possible? PSR is determined by how much you win/lose. Pretty sure you need to be about 50/50 to be ~1550.

Anyway, the more games you play the more accurate your PSR will get. So if you truly are a better player than your PSR indicates you should just play more games.Your PSR is constantly adjusted so that your win:loss rate is always tending toward your average game balance. Low win rate with high PSR is indicative of someone who frequently plays games balanced in the other teams favor, nothing more, nothing less.

[AndrewReily]

Honestly, if you fluctuate in a certain area for a long time, despite ragers and baddies, it is a good indication of the level your at.

That is, if you always join games, and are unbiased about how you play.

[Succumb]

I'm looking in to the whole TGM thing now. As to the whole "it's your true skill" thing, I disagree. Solely because of the fact that I win quite a few games by a lot of effort of myself and uncomplimented teamwork in other cases.
The matches I lose are not because of me not belonging in that bracket (1600-ish) but because I walk into premades, a bunch of friends all on one team. Their teamwork just overwhelms my team of people who picked all of their AGI heroes in the first 2 seconds of the SD picks steamrolling us in no time. People hug their towers, blame each other and another loss is imminent. I could be the most skillful players in the world or the biggest noob; the result will be the same in that case.

With a team of people that communicate I really feel I could go much further. For example; this whole TGM thing works out great and I gain 100-200 PSR, would that mean I became so much more skillful because PSR is the true representation of my skill? Doubtful, I'd just have more of an oppurtinity to express my abilities rather than being held back by premades I have to face.
That being said I might be in for a nasty surprise overestimating myself, who knows. One way to find out though.

[Jackaruu]

Your PSR is constantly adjusted so that your win:loss rate is always tending toward your average game balance. Low win rate with high PSR is indicative of someone who frequently plays games balanced in the other teams favor, nothing more, nothing less.
Oh right, forgot about that, I need to stop posting after midnight :p

[Heridshire]

Yeah, it seems long posts are not read.

Anyways, I realized something. Say you are 1650 PSR. But you always, always play alone. Say your opponents are 1650 too, but they always, always play together, the five of them. Since probably they have the advantage of the teamwork, which the PSR doesn't represent, it would mean you are better than them. It would mean that if you were to play with a team you would outplay them.

Ok, I know this isn't reflected in reality now. But it is comforting to know that when you find a bunch of teammates you would win over them. And your PSR would rise, anyways.

[Isin]

be happy, i'm stuck between 1350 to 1450 even tho that my stats aren't of that level =( i just keep losing games over and over again >.<

I played with you and we lost because of some baddie on our team and I raged a lot :(

[Succumb]

Anyways, I realized something. Say you are 1650 PSR. But you always, always play alone. Say your opponents are 1650 too, but they always, always play together, the five of them. Since probably they have the advantage of the teamwork, which the PSR doesn't represent, it would mean you are better than them. It would mean that if you were to play with a team you would outplay them..

This. The PSR would work if in every game the teamwork would be the same, only then the true skill of players could be measured. Ofcourse picks would be of influence as well.

[Heridshire]

I believe the picks would be a fundamental diffence, since they would be the most important variable as PSR and teamwork would be roughly the same. However, the "skill of picking heroes" would, in long-term, also be reflected in PSR.

The PSR system has its obvious flaws, but I like it. It reminds me an aspect of poker. Short-term, luck matters more than skill. Long-term, skill prevails over luck. Luck being environmental aspects like if you are tired, unfocused, bad computer, lag, etc. If the teamwork flaw would be fixed, then it would be a nearly ideal system.

[Hat_Truck]

I actually made a pretty detailed guide on raising your PSR and avoiding pub-stomps. Refer to it here: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=32540

[FunFair]

even ur teammate left u there and u are dead...is nth v ur PSR dude...if they make u die and u lose the match...they lose as well...if ur temp make a good ult and win the match without any kill...u can still raise ur PSR... what will different was KDR not PSR... -__-"

[Ragnarok17]

No man, never killsteal! And when I say killsteal, I mean obviously wasting ultimates or something.

Some people may hate me for this. But the stupidity of some players really just shocks me. I'm really tired of "stupid" people who just flame and talk arrogantly. KILL DEATH RATIO DOES NOT SHOW HOW GOOD YOU ARE.

Sure, they can tell you SOMETHING, but people interpret it the wrong way. First of all, PSR is the most accurate way to tell how well someone does in public games. So, even if they do feed and die 50 times per game, but still have a PSR 1800, would you kick that player out of the match? Well I wouldn't because there's obviously something about that player that makes him win a lot. (Ignore the possibility that he may be exploiting the system lol).

If you looked at the PSR and want to look at more stuff, THEN you go look at stats. When you look at stats, however, you do NOT look at kill death ratio ONLY. You look at EVERYTHING. S2 Games is awesome enough to show us like 10 different aspects of statistics. They did this for a reason. For example, if someone has a PSR of 1500, but has a K/D/A ratio of 10:1:0 with a exp rate of 400 per minute, then you can immediately have a good guess of how the player plays like. In this case, it's likely a combination of conceding a lot, missing out in team fights, running away or standing off to the side of a team battle and killing everyone after others have died, or they're a kser. You determine this from the low deaths, no assists whatsoever, the high amount of kills, and the low exp rate.

Another example. If someone has a PSR of 1800, a KDA of 1:10:10, and a exp rate of 600, you can easily determine that the player is likely a good support player. He's always in for team fights (hence the high exp rate and high assists), he dies a lot, showing that he's either doing his job as a tank or initiator well, and also that he lets the carries on his team or such get the kills. His PSR shows that he plays well, and hence he wins a lot.

Don't be a statwhore. And don't encourage stat whoring. Unless you can read the stats properly, you should stick to looking at PSR. Statwhoring is the kind of act is what will create a bad community, which is exactly what destroyed DotA's online public community. It encourages people to kill steal each other, and ruins the fun of a team game. It also encourages people to concede when it's like only 15 minutes in the game, and their team will clearly win lategame because the enemy team has all early game int heroes.

Note: Btw, I understand what kill stealing is. It's understandable in a huge team fight that a Legionnaire uses his ultimate to quickly turn the 5v5 into a 5v4. However, a Thunderbringer who greedily watches a Devourer ganking a lone hero and uses his ultimate at the last second is "kill stealing". It's like betraying your team, as you wasted your ult that you could have used for something better to help the team, and you've also wasted exp since you weren't even at the location of where Devourer was fighting. Sure Devourer still gets some exp for being near, but the killer still gets more exp than others.

[Heridshire]

Agreed, Ragnarok17. Just a minor correction, when Thunderbringer kills someone by ulting and is not near a 1000 radius range, he won't receive any xp. Just the gold and the stats.

And a point of opinion, I don't think supporters and tankers dying show that they are doing their job well. If you have 10 deaths and the game drags to an hour, you will be mostly underleveled and without items. That way you won't benefit your team as much as you could late game. It's not that they should not die at all. It's just that even if it's a tanker/support, it's not worth to suicide in order to kill 2 heroes, usually. It's a different history when you die, your whole team survives, and the other whole team dies.

[HeartAttack]

Maybe Matchmaking will solve? You'll be playing with players your range, then once you have enought skills,you'll be in another PSR Range,etc.

[deweylewie]

Host your own game and check the stats of every player (there's a UI mod to do it quicker), looking at K:D, creep denies, win/loss and xp/min. Kick those who are way out of your skill level.

Start off doing this with the green game (noobs only) and easy mode, if you are winning vs these players with similar skill then move up to noobs allowed EM, then non-easy.

Not sure how matchmaking will work since PSR is based solely on win/loss? A noob stomper with 70%+ wins is obviously playing against people a lot worse than him but that doesn't make him a better player than someone who plays vs pr0 players only with 50% wins. The noob stomper will then have higher psr unjustly and be matched against better players while the 50% wins decent player may get matched with someone on a lower skill level who also has 50% wins.

[InsaneOdin]

well my psr is 1614 atm and my skill level is around 1850sh i think

i just lose to many points to teamplayers that go in when they are all miss / never talk/ don't have a microphone/picking more agility heroes when we have 4..../ and never ever type something i'm beating 1800 which have the same skill or WAY below (somehow they went to 1800 by good teammates i guess)

psr sucks they should make games with the number of games a person played

like 100+ games only
200+ games only

would be better imo atleast u know they aren't that nobbish then
and ofcourse not on another account and trying to bash u

[k1desu]

the point is, that aiming for better PSR is wrong.

when u stuck at 1600 it's just your level, dont complain about it. this just shows youre a mediocre player, not bad or pro.

i got stuck at the 1700ish as well, sometimes slightly over, sometimes slightly below.
all i can say is, that i'm okay with this rating, i get good games, where most of people share my skill level, therefore games are balanced and ussualy exciting.