Angelic Plate

[Glorify1]

Angelic Plate

http://i33.tinypic.com/110zubq.jpg
500
+
http://i38.tinypic.com/2upwcaf.jpg
540
+
http://i33.tinypic.com/2ms27hz.jpg
550
=
1590
Angelic Plate


Passive stats:
+7 armor
+5 all stats

Aura: Beacon of light
800 aoe
+1 armor
+0.45 mana regen aura
This aura stacks with other Beacon of light auras as a cumulative effect(+2 armor aura and .9 mana regen for two people having this item)

Active ability:
+20% ms/as boost to self for 2 seconds, disjoints any current projectiles 14 second cooldown

Goal of the item:
*To provide the much needed early/mid game armor that is now absent due to the enhanced marchers change
*Incorporate rarely used items, both ones that are rarely bought and only used in single recipes
*Skillful activateables, rather than blocking any projectiles for the duration it requires you to actively switch it on to evade damage

[Killroy]

Can you explain how the active works exactly. It is not clear to me. I like the ingredients though.

[HybridMalice]

Looks like it'd be pretty useful, I assume that the activation would work much like phase boots, except instead of phasing through units, projectiles in essence phase through you?

[Glorify1]

Works exactly like phase boots, however you cannot phase through anything, it does however disjoint projectiles. This means, say an andromeda stuns you, if you hit it while it's mid flight it will not hit you. Similar to leaping and blinking, this won't work on any aoe skills, only projectiles(this includes auto attacks).

It doesn't prevent you from being the target of projectiles, just that any current projectiles on you at the time of activation are disjointed(they miss).

[mjukis]

7 armor (+1 aura), 95 hp, 65 extra mana, mana (aura) regen and the ability to dodge spells for 200 gold more than a platemail? Looks awfully powerful to me.

[Sir_Josh]

More cooldown on the active ability imo.

[Killroy]

Ah ok, I get it. You get a window of 2 secs of invulnerability to projectiles. If that is the case then the cd should go up a lot. With this I can totally neutralize hammerstorms stun since it has the same cd :)

[_cReAtiVe_]

seems like phaseshift

[ElementUser]

Looks like a good potential addition to me

[Grimace]

I think the active disjoint of projectiles is too much. It's not hard to dodge them with a blink as it is, but carries early-game could easily bind this to a mouse button and be perfectly safe against some heroes for a while.

[Pro]

disjoint is very very powerful in a hand of a good player. so remove disjoint and give it a different (fitting) name. No until then.

[Glorify1]

7 armor (+1 aura), 95 hp, 65 extra mana, mana (aura) regen and the ability to dodge spells for 200 gold more than a platemail? Looks awfully powerful to me.

Platemail plugs into late game items, this doesn't get any stronger.


Ah ok, I get it. You get a window of 2 secs of invulnerability to projectiles. If that is the case then the cd should go up a lot. With this I can totally neutralize hammerstorms stun since it has the same cd :)

No, you don't, all you do is get a one time chance to evade any current projectiles that are already thrown and en route to you.

[Ragnarok17]

Interesting idea. It's nice that the numbers seem pretty good so far.

However, I think that it's better if the item's stats say +4 +4 +4, not +5 +5 +5, otherwise it should have a small recipe cost.

It's also nice that you balanced out the aura stacking by making the aura's armor actually less than a Ring of the Teacher's, and instead added some of it to the wielder's stats.

And oh, how did you get 33 votes within one day? There's barely any posts in this thread o.0

Edit: I also feel that the disjoint ability is too good. If you want to keep it in, I'd suggest the best thing to do is to increase the cooldown, as increasing/adding a recipe cost would make this too expensive. But, I think the cooldown shouldn't be any more than 14 seconds, so that way it's possible to use it twice in a chase, so I suggest you should just take out disjoint. There's already enough blinking abilities in heroes that disjoint projectiles :).

[Moondrench]

Voted Yes, instant disjoint is good, and early armor too, hitting it at the sound of scout Ult or at the icon disappearance will surely piss scout off xD

[mjukis]

Platemail plugs into late game items, this doesn't get any stronger.

Sure, but the armor stat suffers from diminishing returns. With agility included this would almost match a plate (8.5 something armor value or 23-25% damage reduction on someone with 5.9 as a base) with a spell dodge, a small chase ability as well as mana regeneration. Even if you can build frost field and demonic from it that's some pretty amazing value for your 200 gold. As it is, this item screams to be used on anyone who has the slightest inkling of wanting armor. It looks like it replaces plate mail, while providing benefits as you're building towards it as well as a really good activated ability. In the above example you'd get another 5-6 percentage points in damage reduction from FF plate over plate mail. That would mean that this item does about 2/3rds of the damage reduction of a FF plate, although with no AOE slow/nuke, but then again FF does cost 3x more. It certainly has its own tricks up its sleeve with being able to chase and dodge spells.

If I had to pull a number out of my ass I'd reduce to armor bonus to +4 and a +1 aura. 15 second cooldown sounds about right, it might be usable twice in a teambattle and the movement speed bonus won't turn anyone into a map traversing globetrotter. I'm not saying THIS IS HOW IT IS RARARARARA, but maybe it'd be a good idea to look over which heroes you'd personally want to use this item on a lot of the time?

[Glorify1]

Armor does not suffer diminishing returns.

[_Aesa]

seems too situationally powerful for 1550?

as someone mentioned earlier, unless you're either chain stunned into it, Hammerstorm is point blank range, or you're just not paying attention, you could effectively make his best skill useless, or am i missing something

I like the idea but the item is really cheap (no recipe)

[Sabre]

So many replies to this thread fail its hard to even read them. And these are the people who frequent the suggestions section.

The disjoint and stats of the item seem fine, but I question the need for the aura and use of ring of the teacher. I think this would function better with slightly more armor (i.e. just from a guardian ring instead of ring of the teacher) built in and removing the aura. The move speed boost could be increased to 3 seconds and the end result in a powerful early chasing tool and disjoint source. I don't think the team reward is nessecary, as disjoint is powerful enough to screw many heroes.

[mjukis]

Armor does not suffer diminishing returns.

According to the in game tooltips it does (damage mitigation goes up very fast up until around armor 10, then drops off faster). If that's not the case then I'm wrong. Anyho, I've said my piece about it and I think its a bit to powerful as it is.

[Glorify1]

According to the in game tooltips it does (damage mitigation goes up very fast up until around armor 10, then drops off faster). If that's not the case then I'm wrong. Anyho, I've said my piece about it and I think its a bit to powerful as it is.

I'll just quote playdota on this one, sec.


It is generally conceived that armor gets less and less effective the more you have (since the extra damage reduction gets less and less). That a Plate Mail gives you less extra protection from attacks if you already have 20 armor than if you would have only 5. This is false. If one Plate Mail makes the hero survive 3 extra attacks, than 4 Plate Mails will make the hero survive a total of 12 extra attacks before dying. Each Plate Mail gives the same amount of extra protection, which is in this case 3 more attacks before dying.


Proof:
Consider a hero with 1000 hp and 0 armor. To kill it one needs to deal at least 1000 damage to it.

If we give the hero 10 armor, which is 37.5% damage reduction, every attack would only deal 62.5% of the original value (100% - 37.5% = 62.5%). To kill it now, one needs to deal 1600 damage (1600 * 0.625 = 1000). You could say that the hero now have 600 more effective hp (EHP).

If we instead give the hero 20 armor, which is 54.5% damage reduction. The damage multiplier is now 45.5%. The damage needed to kill would increase to 2200 (2200 * 0.455 = 1000). The increase in EHP is 1200, twice the amount as given by only 10 armor.

Every armor point adds an additional 6% of your maximum HP to your EHP.

[Isin]

Can you explain how the active works exactly. It is not clear to me. I like the ingredients though.

I think it's 100% ranged evasion for 2 seconds.

[mjukis]

I stand corrected, I've always been poor at math so that shows what I know I guess. This actually makes your item stack up even better against the other armor items than I thought.

EDIT: Isin, the "disjoint" ability is activated while the spell is in the air traveling towards you. This makes the spell miss you, its not like magic immunity.

[Glorify1]

I think it's 100% ranged evasion for 2 seconds.

Please refrain from spreading rumors in my thread, especially when I've clarified more than three times.


This makes the spell miss you, its not like magic immunity.

Only projectile spells like Andromeda's stun, also ranged attacks.

[Ragnarok17]

Nice quote Glorify :). I always got confused with the whole armor reduction thing until I found in a DotA guide the following information, which I found extremely convenient:

1 armor = 6% more EHP.

Still don't get how you got so many votes so quick XD.

[Doggan]

I think you need to pick a bonus to the armor. Disjoint or as/ms. The as/ms Definitely doesn't seem to fit the item at all. Almost like it was thrown on there.

Overall concept with it is good. I just think you went overboard with it.

[Killroy]

@Glorify: You say you explained it 3 times already but maybe, just maybe it is not as clear as you think. Disjoint is also a difficult term in this case. So what does disjoint do exactly as I understand it now and correct me if I am wrong.

I am being chased by hammerstorm. He throws his hammer. I click the disjoint active and the projectile will be evaded within the time frame of 2 secs.
But if a ranged creep is also shooting at me and hits me first then that shot is evaded and the hammer will hit.
Do I understand this correctly?

[Glorify1]

Disjoint, something used pretty frequently I thought when describing things, basically makes any currently aimed projectiles(be it andromeda's stun or pyromancer's auto attack) miss. Anything thrown AFTER the time you clicked it would still hit, so if I hit it and THEN andromeda stuns it'll hit me. The 2 seconds duration is simply burst movespeed.

[Decency]

There's already too many "plate" items, and considering it's made from Ringmail, not a plate, that's just confusing. Consider changing the name.

As for the item, it just seems way too powerful. Arachna's Ult, Pyro's Ult, many others would be dodgeable and probably a lot of those "dodges" would be by chance or "instinct." It would definitely be a situational item based on opposing heroes, but against those with projectile based spells it would be imbalanced and I don't even think particularly difficult to use. I like the nod to reaction-based items, but this is probably overdoing it.

+20% movement speed for 2 seconds isn't worthless, either. Consider that Electrician's level 1 ultimate gives +30% which decreases, and that he has to stop to cast the spell, and that it still lets him catch up to people fairly easily.

And an aura.


No. =(

Heres a clarification on disjoint. If Hammer throws a stun on magebane and he blinks away the hammer will land where Magebane was right before the blink.

(Also i think if hammer throws a stun, and i activate the above item, i will still be stuned cause its aoe if i dont move out of the range intime)

Fast moving spells would only be dodged by pure luck (pyros ult for instance)

Also just because you press it dosent mean your 100% immune for 2 seconds. All it means is when you activate the ability, any spell, or ranged auto attacks currently IN THE AIR traveling to you will miss. Its a very small time window.

[binbo]

@Glorify: You say you explained it 3 times already but maybe, just maybe it is not as clear as you think. Disjoint is also a difficult term in this case. So what does disjoint do exactly as I understand it now and correct me if I am wrong.

I am being chased by hammerstorm. He throws his hammer. I click the disjoint active and the projectile will be evaded within the time frame of 2 secs.
But if a ranged creep is also shooting at me and hits me first then that shot is evaded and the hammer will hit.
Do I understand this correctly?
Disjoint is not an an applied aura, but an effect. Auras are usually called buffs, but an aura is really something which has a lasting duration, rather than an Instant effect.

Like if you get healed by Jeraziah, then you gain 360 Health immediately, not over some duration. When this item is used, Disjoint is applied to you, meaning that any projectiles enroute to you while it was applied will miss. Disjoint is something that has a duration of "Instant", not some time.

What lasts for a duration is the speed boost, not the Disjoint. For purposes of understanding it, consider Disjoint to be equivalent to blink. You cannot blink for 2 seconds - you blink, and then it's over. Take Magebane's blink - he blinks, it's over, and then he gains a buff. This active ability is the same. You disjoint yourself, then you gain a buff.

Anyway, as it is, I vote No. Explaining why would be redundant because I agree with others. I also find it kinda fishy that you have so many Yes votes but so little replies. I hope this does not pass before a new vote is made, showing account names, and requiring a post in the thread.

[_Aesa]

Armor does not suffer diminishing returns.

You're sort of right but sort of wrong here. Armor does suffer DR in the sense that you don't want to get too much of it; to clarify, buying a 2nd platemail is not as good as buying the first one.

I saw your quoted example where every platemail you buy has the same effect to you EHP, but that situation ONLY applies if your health pool is static. Obviously this isn't the case- to use an extreme example to make it really obvious (Let's say there is ONLY physical damage too):

1) You're a level 25 blacksmith with no items. You'd gain more EHP from a platemail than a beastheart.
2) You're a level 1 andromeda with 4 platemails. You'd gain more EHP from a beastheart than a 5th platemail.

In other words, armor becomes less cost effective the more you have of it. Barring semantic arguments, that counts as diminishing return.

[HatTrick]

Great item for a hero like Accursed

[MrSnowman]

The active abillity will pwn plauge riders ulti. I like it :D

[_cReAtiVe_]

so to clarify is this similar to puck's phaseshift or not really?

[Daloc]

So you want to make a few heroes in the game totally useless with that item that everyone can get rather easily and make the game reflex based? I can see everyone in competitive matches going LOLIDODGEJOO and whoever dodges most wins :--D

edit:OH MY FOUND A TYPO :O

[Sabre]

As stated previously (somewhat)- This thread is filled with so much fail it makes me wonder if there shouldn't be minimum requirements to even be in the suggestions section. Seriously. If you don't know what disjoint means/does, why the hell do you think you know what balance even looks like.

[Glorify1]

You're sort of right but sort of wrong here. Armor does suffer DR in the sense that you don't want to get too much of it; to clarify, buying a 2nd platemail is not as good as buying the first one.

I saw your quoted example where every platemail you buy has the same effect to you EHP, but that situation ONLY applies if your health pool is static. Obviously this isn't the case- to use an extreme example to make it really obvious (Let's say there is ONLY physical damage too):

1) You're a level 25 blacksmith with no items. You'd gain more EHP from a platemail than a beastheart.
2) You're a level 1 andromeda with 4 platemails. You'd gain more EHP from a beastheart than a 5th platemail.

In other words, armor becomes less cost effective the more you have of it. Barring semantic arguments, that counts as diminishing return.

Your logic is flawed, armor is still not suffering diminishing returns, it's merely more beneficial to get hitpoints over armor at certain stages to increase your EHP higher.

Armor will always give your hitpoints 6% EHP against physical damage, however, at some points it may be better to increase yoru base hitpoints rather than adding another 60% ehp.

An example would be:
1000 hitpoints with 10 armor, 6x10=60% EHP leading to 1600 EHP.
1000 hitpoints with 20 armor, 6x20=120% EHP giving 2200 EHP.
1000 hitpoints with 30 armor, 6x30=180% EHP giving 2800 EHP.

1000 hitpoints with 40 armor, 6x20=240% EHP giving 3400 EHP.
1500 hitpoints with 30 armor, 6x30=180% EHP giving 4200 EHP.

Regardless, armor gives the SAME amount, it's just getting hitpoints at certain stages can be MORE beneficial.


So you want to make a few heroes in the game totally useless with that item that everyone can get rather easily and make the game reflex based? I can see everyone in competitive matches going LOLIDODGEJOO and whoever dodges most wins :--D

edit:OH MY FOUND A TYPO :O

Because if you can reflex dodge skills, it's a show of skill, against skills that are generally perceived as not requiring skill.

[Daloc]

Because if you can reflex dodge skills, it's a show of skill, against skills that are generally perceived as not requiring skill.

You weren't playing dota 6.48 were you? Oh god dagger wars all over again and 10 useless heroes which will not be picked at all because of this item.. sure is healthy and balancing the game..

Imo picks should be countered with counterpicks, not with 1 item that counters the whole hero (for example andromeda and hammerstorm).

[Glorify1]

Hammerstorm will still stun, .48b DotA was the best.

[Shadowcamsy]

Imo the disjoint will be too powerful, for all those bonus effects you're going to have to charge people like... 1000+ gold recipe cost. It not only gives a disjoint but bonus armor for allied units that have it too, but I do agree that the game is in desperate need of an early +armor item

[Murlox]

Pro :

- good idea to combine those otherwise underused items ;
- nice to get some cheap armor early on ;
- nice to get some cheap stats early on ;
- nice to get some cheap aura early on ;
- good replacement to the old AC boots ;
- cheap item with useful parts and no recipe.

Cons :

- Too cheap an item considering the benefits and the fact that every part is so useful ;
- Disjoint on demand (DoD) would be too powerful imo against many spells (arrow, voodoo green ball, hammer, stuns...) but would also cancels ultis. (Thinking Scout, Plague Rider atm -> this could actually totally negate Plague Rider's ult if you're the first target)
- Greats stats, easy to assemble, cheap, no recipe, aura, active, MS, IAS on a single item? Well I call OP.
- How would this work with enhanced marchers? dual speed boost?


In conclusion I like the idea of using those items together, but maybe add a recipe price and tweak/change the effects.

Edit : also, stackable auras seems too much : if we all make this item we just got ourselves a nice +5 armor / +200% mana regen aura.

[sHoWTiMe]

Love the item. I always wanted something like this because I'm used to dodge a lot of nukes in wacraft with blademaster :P and warden.

[zzSleeper]

Component choices: good
Stackable aura: interesting (good)
MS boost: out of place
Skill based ability: too good

While it seems obvious that the combination of the projectile dodge and ms boost is intended to serve a "get the hell out of here" purpose, it doesn't really make sense with a team support item. I approve of including more skill-based abilities, but dodging projectiles on on command is strong enough alone to make it a situational counter to many heroes. Drop the ms boost, add a mana cost to the dodge and increase the cooldown.

[Simba]

I vote yes BUT you should take off the MS bonus.
Or maybe have it just jump you forward like 50 units (would cause disjoint and be cool). Up the cooldown to maybe 30 seconds honestly. That's a good effect.

<3 the idea of mass stacking auras though.

[rockchalk]

Voted yes because of disjoint.

[Sabre]

- Disjoint on demand (DoD) would be too powerful imo against many spells (arrow, voodoo green ball, hammer, stuns...) but would also cancels ultis. (Thinking Scout, Plague Rider atm -> this could actually totally negate Plague Rider's ult if you're the first target)


Disjoint would not stop javelin (arrow). There are already plenty of items that disjoint, but most do it as a secondary effect to their main ability. Complaining that this item's disjoint would somehow screw many heroes is simply stupid theorycrafting. The reality of it is that you have less then a second to react to most projectiles.

[DonPiano]

Would it disjoint a targeted Sand Wraith curse but not an unttargeted one?

[Extreme_Cake]

Disjoint would not stop javelin (arrow). There are already plenty of items that disjoint, but most do it as a secondary effect to their main ability. Complaining that this item's disjoint would somehow screw many heroes is simply stupid theorycrafting. The reality of it is that you have less then a second to react to most projectiles.
Given that the average human reaction time is only 0.3s, and most competitive gamers are probably faster than this, a second is plenty long enough.

[Sabre]

That is, again, pointless theory crafting. If you're sitting and doing nothing else yes, you have a good reaction time and can probably dodge the skill. If you're say, in the middle of a gank and trying to do/keep track of 5 things at once, your reaction time suffers. Calling this a be-all and end-all of counters to targeted projectile skills is absurd.

[dargaizz]

I think it's fine, but I don't think we need another ms ability with phase boots.

[Avi1231]

Really like this concept. It sounds like a great item for support heroes that can't afford to be taken out of the fight for the duration of a stun. I think the main goal of this item should be to make it so that there are still better choices for carries/gankers while it's almost core on many support heroes. As it is it sounds pretty damn close.

The IAS might be a bit off, but I like the MS as plenty of support heroes have junk MS. In the end I suppose the IAS/MS is good because that makes it useful on more heroes, but if you end up deciding that it should largely be beneficial for support heroes rather than others maybe removing the IAS is for the better.

Really great idea Angel.

[Ationi]

It cancels predator leap, andromeda stun, scout arrow, voodoo stun, plague ulti, pyro ulti, reaper heal, ...

And you also gain +20% MSPD to outrun* a lot of heroes (of course you also have the marchers).

I would compare this to the escape ability of a portal key, but without any damage based cooldown reset. It has potential to ruin a lot of heroes really badly.

Just sayin' ;p...


*) to get out of their critical skillrange

[Avi1231]

It cancels predator leap, andromeda stun, scout arrow, voodoo stun, plague ulti, pyro ulti, reaper heal, ...

And you also gain +20% MSPD to outrun* a lot of heroes (of course you also have the marchers).

I would compare this to the escape ability of a portal key, but without any damage based cooldown reset. It has potential to ruin a lot of heroes really badly.

Just sayin' ;p...


*) to get out of their critical skillrange

You do recall that it says +20% MS/IAS for 2 seconds right?

[TommyDanger]

the more items the better i say

[Ationi]

#53 "You do recall that it says +20% MS/IAS for 2 seconds right?"

It's not an epic running item, but with the stock speed 300 against speed 360 for 2 seconds you run 120 tiles away from an opponent (Equivalent to 0.4 sec of running @ 300). If you both have boots, the wearer of this item gains even more advantage.

Of course it doesn't save you in the middle on enemies, but it helps you to avoid more ganks and initiations. If it saves you 2 times it kind of pays itself back. To be honest, I'd like to see this interesting item in the game, but I feel like it could totally flip the balance with disjointing + high level of skill (fast reaction required).

It also allows anyone to escape the wannabe CC Puppet Master Hold without any contest for the cost of 1590g and an inventory slot. Really straightforward hero-countering.

Maybe it should have some kind of "Starts a 5 second cooldown when your active spells are used" -restriction so it can't be used in the heat of the battle (to counter those ultis in 5v5). I would always pick this item without a question when playing against Plague Rider which is popularized by his fantastic ultimate.

1590g vs. 2150g vs. 3900g

Choose your destiny :rolleyes:

[Threepwood1]

I like the idea itself, I just don't see the point in lowering Ring of the Teacher's regen, why not make it non-stackable and buff the aura up to 2-3 armor and 0.75-0.85 mana-reg?

Making it stack is good and all, but I believe that most teams would want one of these, not two.

-Guybrush Threepwood

[JoeMartin]

Making it stack is good and all, but I believe that most teams would want one of these, not two.

I think the idea is that it would be a "pro" item that nearly everyone on the team would buy as a counter to specific hero/s, thus the stacking aura.

[Threepwood1]

I think the idea is that it would be a "pro" item that nearly everyone on the team would buy as a counter to specific hero/s, thus the stacking aura.

Agreed.. I just don't feel it's balanced out..
If everyone gets this item, it'll give them a total of 11/12 extra armor(depending on if the armor buffs from "my" Angelic plate works for me too) which is.. quite a lot versus physical teams.
I really don't feel this is needed but then again, I'm not quite sure.. at all.

-Guybrush Threepwood

[Glorify1]

So if your entire team elects to spend 7500 gold on items, it'll give too much armor per player to be balanced? Heard lich can do that for free.

[Threepwood1]

So if your entire team elects to spend 7500 gold on items, it'll give too much armor per player to be balanced? Heard lich can do that for free.

7500 for an entire team is not much.
Yes, lich can do that for free, it's a great ability.
Besides, to make this item worthwhile, you need to get at least 2-3 of em.
I don't see the point of make the reg so shitty, honestly.

Imo, just remove the stack and buff the item.

-Guybrush Threepwood

[jay`t]

i'm a little leery of any item that has stackable auras, since if it is balanced with the idea of having the aura stacked, the item has to be poopy. if it is balanced with the base item in mind and stacking as an afterthought, the aura has to be inconsequential, or it will be too powerful when stacked heavily.

the thing i do not like about this item is that it is not situational at all. this item grants very much needed early armor, mana regen, escape mechanism (MS boost), chasing mechanism (MS and AS boost), stats, and this stacking aura. this item is always a solid pick, no matter what hero you are, or what team you're facing.


oh and as for 'lich can do that for free', this is an invalid arguement since you are comparing a hero ability with an item... were this a valid line of reasoning, codex should be buffed because pyromancer can do the same thing for free, or sheep stick isn't that powerful because pollywog can do the same thing for free.

i agree that early armor is needed... but too many small bonuses is why the last iteration of steam boots got nerfed.

not voting right now but i really do like the armor and disjoint concept

[Glorify1]

the thing i do not like about this item is that it is not situational at all. this item grants very much needed early armor, mana regen, escape mechanism (MS boost), chasing mechanism (MS and AS boost), stats, and this stacking aura. this item is always a solid pick, no matter what hero you are, or what team you're facing.

This is by design, and I doubt this would see heavy play on any carries due to it being a money sink, some items are just generally considered important and required in most matches and that was the goal of this item.


oh and as for 'lich can do that for free', this is an invalid arguement since you are comparing a hero ability with an item... were this a valid line of reasoning, codex should be buffed because pyromancer can do the same thing for free, or sheep stick isn't that powerful because pollywog can do the same thing for free.

More so just getting the point across that regardless that skills can be given monetary values, for example CM's aura is ~2 manatubes on most heroes.



i agree that early armor is needed... but too many small bonuses is why the last iteration of steam boots got nerfed.

Steamboots were nerfed for many reasons, first of all in DotA due to people not liking phase boots as they were. The change to Hon's boots were because HoN didn't like what DotA did with it, but then realised how powerful massive movespeed, armor, and stats were on certain heroes. The main problem being that they were on an item that acts as your boots, meaning required everygame regardless.

[dYe]

only issue i have with this is a nullstone (linkins sphere) has a 20second cd, while this is just a much much much much cheaper version of it that can be used every 14 seconds (granted its not automatic to dodge spells, but this can be abused more in some cases). other than that it seems cool

[Leijona]

It needs a little nerfing IMO. Though I'd love to use that against pyromancer or scout. Maybe make the cd a bit higher.

[_Aesa]

Your logic is flawed, armor is still not suffering diminishing returns, it's merely more beneficial to get hitpoints over armor at certain stages to increase your EHP higher.


That was exactly my point, perhaps semantically it could be argued otherwise, but I think we both agree that you're getting less value per gold compared to alternatives, which is essentially diminishing returns.

[Glorify1]

That was exactly my point, perhaps semantically it could be argued otherwise, but I think we both agree that you're getting less value per gold compared to alternatives, which is essentially diminishing returns.

You get the same value from armor regardless, you can't compare something with two variables.

[_Aesa]

Last post, since I've derailed your thread enough about mechanics- but there is only one circumstance where buying armor does not suffer diminishing returns, in the sense that buying the 2nd piece of armor is in fact not as effective as the 1st:

If there is absolutely nothing else you can buy.

[Arnald1]

cheap armor busting me wants it

There aren't many non unstackable aure rite now
steamboots were so so godly back then

[AeiOwnedU]

20% movement speed boost is way too much.

Although, I'm voting on the idea not the stats - I still say no go, I think the change to marchers was made with an intention...

[Glorify1]

Last post, since I've derailed your thread enough about mechanics- but there is only one circumstance where buying armor does not suffer diminishing returns, in the sense that buying the 2nd piece of armor is in fact not as effective as the 1st:

If there is absolutely nothing else you can buy.

Just because you can get a better deal for your EHP does not mean that armor suffers diminishing returns.

[Nome]

Throwing my support behind this.
The disjoint ability seems extremely situational--but it's a lot less so than you'd think. Everyone has died before they've been hit by that final shot while disappearing into the fog.

Not only that, but there's no current items in the game (or even suggestions here) that incorporate a stacking aura.

[Glorify1]

Throwing my support behind this.
The disjoint ability seems extremely situational--but it's a lot less so than you'd think. Everyone has died before they've been hit by that final shot while disappearing into the fog.

Not only that, but there's no current items in the game (or even suggestions here) that incorporate a stacking aura.

Are the grey maiden's images from WoW?

[Nome]

Almost all my images are from WoW!

[Avi1231]

I just realized something. Doesn't the push on Force Staff (aka Tablet of Command) do a similar disjoint? I feel like you could almost make this item a remake of that item although that item does server its purpose pretty well in terms of breaking channels. Love getting it against Voodoo and Tempest. Still love the concept for this item though. Glad to see Nome's behind it.

[tastive]

Not voting on this, but the disjoint just seems too powerful given how cheap the item is.

[GGreenBass]

Vote Yes on Item.
Multiply Cooldown of Item by 3.
Implement Item.
???
Profit

(sorry if that doesn't help much, but really I feel that is the only flaw.)

EDIT:
You gotta think, since Projectiles won't be used THAT much early game anyways, having a cooldown that short is madness.

[MacGesicht79]

I say the duration is so long its too easy to use; also the CD makes Linken's even more useless than it is anyway. Also too cheap for an item which provides a very good active for the whole game. So I'd say

*Decrease duration from 2 to 0.75 seconds (+20% movement are not much anymore now)
*Increase the cooldown from 14 to about 35 seconds
*Increase the passive stats
*Increase the total cost by ~700
#maybe make a little 75 or 100 range port into the target direction


edit: forget about that last #thing, stupid

[YummyCheese]

No. The problem here is that the item counters a very specific group of heroes and only that specific group - it's too much of an 'if, then.' item. For example, if playing against Andromeda, you buy this item and procede to easily make her most important skill completely useless. If they DON'T have any projectile based skills on the enemy team, this item is near useless. Item choice should be a CHOICE. Anyone can say 'Hey look, they have Andromeda, that means buy Angelic Plate'.

Furthermore, it destroys balance overall - because suddenly every projectile based hero, ranged carries, etc. etc. are near useless with a rather cheap item.

[Glorify1]

No. The problem here is that the item counters a very specific group of heroes and only that specific group - it's too much of an 'if, then.' item. For example, if playing against Andromeda, you buy this item and procede to easily make her most important skill completely useless. If they DON'T have any projectile based skills on the enemy team, this item is near useless. Item choice should be a CHOICE. Anyone can say 'Hey look, they have Andromeda, that means buy Angelic Plate'.

Furthermore, it destroys balance overall - because suddenly every projectile based hero, ranged carries, etc. etc. are near useless with a rather cheap item.

The ability to dodge 1 ranged hero carry attack doesn't make them useless. The ability to dodge andromeda's stun is irrelevant when you factor in other stuns, making chaining them more important.

This item is meant to provide a small amount of skill-like protection, similar to using BKB just as a behemoth or magmus blinks in and making them waste the majority of their damage. However, this is on a far lesser scale, as you normally won't be able to dodge more than one projectile.

[jay`t]

i think people are confused: just to clarify, you are not immune to projectiles for two seconds, only the ones already fired at you will miss.

[Killroy]

And disjointing stuff like andromeda's stun or pyro's ulti would take lightning reflexes. It is more used on that last shot that would normally kill you, which you see coming and you go oh sh.......t!!! and then you press this item to evade it. It took me a while to fully understand it and I think it is an ok item.

[MacGesicht79]

i think people are confused: just to clarify, you are not immune to projectiles for two seconds, only the ones already fired at you will miss.
Ohhhhhhhh I think you have to point that out more clearly in the main post then (;

[Glorify1]

It's been pointed out multiple times through-out the thread.

[MacGesicht79]

in the main post
because reading a whole topic of 5 pages which mostly is not relevant anymore due to end of the related discussion is a nice waste of time.

plus if something is not clearly stated in the item description its not that positive.

[Glorify1]

disjoints any current projectiles 14 second cooldown

If you cannot understand what this is, I highly doubt you should be voting on item ideas. Even if I didn't know what disjoint is, with basic deduction I could reason that since it's doing SOMETHING to current projectiles it's not an effect that lasts for 2 seconds but applies to only currently-flying-at-me projectiles.

[siXtheleMent]

On a concept not numbers note, YES. 100% YES. It is a great idea for using the Major Totem.

On a implement or don't implement note, NO. Why? The active + enhanced marchers = imba. You can run away from a Blood Hunter who doesn't have his passive MS increase leveled out fully. I do like the deflection and the increased attack speed however.

You have a thumbs up from me.

[Glorify1]

2 seconds of movespeed increase with a 15 second cooldown will make you outrun people? Blood hunter will undoubtedly have phase boots, which give 10% for 5 seconds, meaning an overall bigger increase.

[JoeMartin]

No. The problem here is that the item counters a very specific group of heroes and only that specific group - it's too much of an 'if, then.' item. For example, if playing against Andromeda, you buy this item and procede to easily make her most important skill completely useless. If they DON'T have any projectile based skills on the enemy team, this item is near useless. Item choice should be a CHOICE. Anyone can say 'Hey look, they have Andromeda, that means buy Angelic Plate'.

Furthermore, it destroys balance overall - because suddenly every projectile based hero, ranged carries, etc. etc. are near useless with a rather cheap item.

Following your Andromeda example, how long is her stun projectile in the air? Surely less than 1 second tops (hell 1 second is probably way high), and that's assuming it's fired from max range. You have an extremely limited window to blow this thing. The item isn't making you immune to projectiles in general for two seconds, it's just disjointing only projectiles currently in the air that have be specifically targeted at you. Any ground targeted "projectile" ability will still hit you (Valk's arrow, Maliken's Sword Throw, Nymphora's Zeal, etc etc).

And let's be honest, in the heat of the moment when you aren't sure who's going to be targeting who with what, you're busy working your own deal and you're well within range of the stun, odds are you won't get the disjoint off in time anyways without some seriously awesome reaction time. Really it seems more to me like a hauling away from unfavorable circumstances ass saving device (when you're expecting and waiting for projectiles to be coming at you specifically) than a BKB-esque middle-of-the-fight preventative measure ability.

It'll be a huge boon for players smart enough to use it well, and I doubt it would have any huge effect on the metagame. Voting yes.

[Bouk]

The disjoin abiity is very powerful, and it does not need to be coupled with a movement speed incerease. The stacking is kinda neat.

Please take the time to review my new hero Enzie the melee INT carry.

[jay`t]

i really like the disjoint thing, especially because of the kneejerk reactions you'll have. reminds me lots of playing fighting games (street fighter or soul calibur, etc) where you'd be mentally prepared in case your opponent would do something so you could pop your counter in the next few frames of play.

on top of this, it'd allow like some ninja mind games **** to happen. let's face it, anyone who even plays at a half decent level knows what heroes do what and when they'd do it. in the andromeda example, she wouldn't fire her stun from far off due to getting it disjointed. thus she'll sneak in closer to do it to make you have a lesser chance of missing it, or WIGGLE SEDUCTIVELY, making you think shes gonna fire it off

frankly, i don't think i'd mind seeing an item like this being a staple. i mean, the pvp trinket completely changed the way WOW pvp happened and added a whole breadth of strategies.

my only concerns are with the limited number of projectile based attacks that it would disjoint and the stacking aura. i voted yes for skill based options (and the fact that ifear that people have voted no because they don't understand the concept) but still say no on an aura

oh and bump :o

[dune]

I'm somewhat divided on this item. I like the concept a hell of a lot, especially without the armour from phasers. As others have said many many times, disjoint is a very potent ability (but by no means fool-proof) but I don't see it as a game-breaking power. I do, however, feel that the ability should come with a drawback: The bonus MS/AS does seem very out of place and unnecessary given the strength of the disjoint - perhaps instead of a buff to MS, it should give you a debuff for two seconds, maybe even a very brief period of immobility. This means that you can dodge that nasty nuke, but have to watch out for being caught by chasers having a reduced MS.

[Hurfdurf]

How would this work with Lich's ult? Completely destroy it or what?

[dune]

How would this work with Lich's ult? Completely destroy it or what?

IIRC if you disjoint Lich ulti then it would not damage you with the nova, but it would continue to bounce.

[Glorify1]

A debuff doesn't make much sense, you dodge a skill only to be rewarded with immobility or slow. The point of the movespeed buff is to give the item very limited control over aoe abilities in addition to projectiles, a minor speed boost can be utilized to juke a stun.

[dune]

A debuff doesn't make much sense, you dodge a skill only to be rewarded with immobility or slow. The point of the movespeed buff is to give the item very limited control over aoe abilities in addition to projectiles, a minor speed boost can be utilized to juke a stun.

That's where we differ, I suppose. A debuff does make sense because otherwise you get to dodge a stun or rather angry nuke and get a buff to Movespeed at a cost of... What? The reward from dodging the spell is the dodging of the spell.

Think of, for example, Puck's Phase Shift - it lets him dodge a nuke and damage, but means that he is immobile.

[Glorify1]

At the cost of buying an item. You buy BKB, does it debuff you when you get magic immunity with an increase in physical damage for "balance"?

Pucks skill is a skill, you get it at level one, and you're not only immobile but incapable of taking damage while it's on.

[xTwIsTx]

nice :) it would be good. but if there will be too much items ? :( would be too hard 2learn for newbs...

[Anvardz]

i played call of duty 4 competitively for ~2 years and was good at it. Player with good reflexes SHOULD have advantage over slowpoke ones. For example - if u have good reflexes u will dodge valk's arrow even without this item. WHY DON'T YOU QQ ON THIS THEN?!

Voted YES. In addition to teamplay-based gameplay we will have single-player based one. I WANT THIS.

[dune]

At the cost of buying an item. You buy BKB, does it debuff you when you get magic immunity with an increase in physical damage for "balance"?

Excellent, we have a point of reference. With BKB, for example, you are paying for that ability. It has also been nerfed several times, both in price and length of effect. Angelic plate has no recipe cost. I guess I just don't think it should give a speed bonus, especially given that one already gets the disjoint ability. You don't need a reward for being able to dodge a spell other than that you have dodged the spell.


Pucks skill is a skill, you get it at level one, and you're not only immobile but incapable of taking damage while it's on.

It's true that it is a skill, but so too is blink, yet the blink dagger is far more nerfed than the skill.

What if the Disjoint gave a brief stun (say 0.01s) to prevent the owner being able to use it during channelling?

[Glorify1]

BKB has not been nerfed but buffed several times.

Blink dagger is far better than blink skills, it's instant as opposed to a drawn out animation.

I don't want any negative effects put along with this item. You act as though the dodge of a spell is automatically going to happen every time. Fact is, there are very few spells in HoN that could actually be dodged, and in addition it's not a guaranteed dodge it's a skill based reflex dodge - this is reason enough for it to not have a debuff.

[Volt]

Creative idea, but isn't this just a watered down Abyssal Skull with no lifesteal?

[Glorify1]

Abyssal skull has no place on supports, and provides no stat bonus, this is meant to take the place of the lack of armor items currently in the early metagame.

[FiNGERS]

Way too cheap IMO, shorter cd than nullstone and under half the price. I do like the concept, I just feel it needs a few tweaks.

edit: i realize its a fairly situational item and relies on skill, but the heroes it does work against will be gimped completely.

[Glorify1]

Name some heroes it works against, and how they'd be gimped. Lanes they'd commonly be found in, and lanes they'd commonly be found against.

[emallson]

I don't see why it shouldn't be implemented. See a need fill a need. This is the engineer's creed.

[FiNGERS]

Name some heroes it works against, and how they'd be gimped. Lanes they'd commonly be found in, and lanes they'd commonly be found against.

I'd be surprised if you farmed this item early enough in the laning phase to make a huge impact, and when I said cheap I meant inexpensive, not overpowered. And I think you know which heroes it works against considering your skill level sir.

edit: FYI I voted yes on concept not numbers, and I'm not balance expert so I'm not going to begin to think what needs to be changed. After looking at it again it seems 'ok', but once again I'm no balance expert.

[SUSUGAM]

too strong for the price, no. higher cd (~30-60sec) or changed disjoint ability.

really giving supports a ridiculous amount of survivability for such a cheap price

[Glorify1]

I'd be surprised if you farmed this item early enough in the laning phase to make a huge impact, and when I said cheap I meant inexpensive, not overpowered. And I think you know which heroes it works against considering your skill level sir.

edit: FYI I voted yes on concept not numbers, and I'm not balance expert so I'm not going to begin to think what needs to be changed. After looking at it again it seems 'ok', but once again I'm no balance expert.

Of course I know the abilities, and this can easily be brought to you in the lane via chicken. It would honestly only help against a few heroes, the cost of it requiring you to rush it for laning phase(where it'd be most useful against these heroes) or get it later on. The main thing is it allows you to buy lots of useful items(aura, armor, stats) and eventually build them into something.

[daG]

I really like this item, now Ring of the Teacher will be worth buying even for those who aint getting Abyssal Skull and it will be easier to tank up the "weak ints" with some stats+armor. The disjoint ability is too powerful IMO (as mentioned) but I like it anyways, maybe you could do so it evades the damage of the projectiles that are cast upon you instead of completely evading them. So if andromeda stuns you, you dont take the damage but u still get stunned. Also I dont think that the AS increase on the active is necessary.

Nice work!

Edit: typos

[Soz3]

More cooldown on the active ability imo.

I agree. 25 seconds will be more appropriate (<- spell this for me please?).

[Sordak]

you get T-up for me for the very nice activateable Idea, i am reviewing alot stuff here but this is my first item so im not realy sure about the whole thing.

The MS and AS boost seems nice. But i like the protect and the passive Team support even more.

however could you explain "dissjoints any current projectiles" a bit better? what Projectiles does it have an effect on.

[Irsic]

The CD would need to be closer to 35 - 50s. imo

[Glorify1]

you get T-up for me for the very nice activateable Idea, i am reviewing alot stuff here but this is my first item so im not realy sure about the whole thing.

The MS and AS boost seems nice. But i like the protect and the passive Team support even more.

however could you explain "dissjoints any current projectiles" a bit better? what Projectiles does it have an effect on.

All projectiles.

[PappaRajRaj]

Cool item, but isnt it a bit op?

Poor valkyrie :<

[PappaRajRaj]

Would plauge rider be affected?

[trYggpAz]

I would never buy this item, I'd think it a waste of gold and a setback off my itembuild for later.

[`Beer]

I love the idea =) but I have to agree it just is too good =)

[PoopyDesires]

Cool item, but isnt it a bit op?

Poor valkyrie :<

Valkryie's isn't homing, therefore it doesn't specifically target you and cant be disjointed.

[`Beer]

Valkryie's isn't homing, therefore it doesn't specifically target you and cant be disjointed.
I think he means because of the leap. And valkyrie is already op as it is way beefier than in dota

[PoopyDesires]

I think he means because of the leap. And valkyrie is already op as it is way beefier than in dota

How would this affect leap?

[Glorify1]

Leap and the item provides two disjoint abilities.

[argnoferich]

Ultimates should in no way be disjoint by such a non-costly item. Anyway that's a cool concept. I didnt get the 20% move speed either. Holding vote for now.

[Glorify1]

Ultimates shouldn't in no way be disjoint by such a non-costly item

Double negative means you think it should. Besides, ultimates are already disjointed by things like blink dagger, blinks, leaps, etc.

[jay`t]

Would plauge rider be affected?

plague rider has a weird ult. when you disjoint his ult, it damages you and bounces from where you were, thus this wouldn't be a real counter to preventing damage from plague's ult. if you've ever tried to blink away from it, you know how this works.

valkyrie javelin will be unaffected.

[Glorify1]

Notice most projectile ults can no longer be disjointed as of the .54

[ikaP]

14 second CD is nothing.

Increase the CD on the projectile disjunction.

Seems like a really nice item, but considering cost<>use, then it's very overpowered.

I'm sure that there are many other people around, that agree on increasing the CD.

Holding the vote atm.

Thanks.

[argnoferich]

Double negative means you think it should. Besides, ultimates are already disjointed by things like blink dagger, blinks, leaps, etc.


Ultimates should in no way be disjoint by such a non-costly item. Anyway that's a cool concept. I didnt get the 20% move speed either. Holding vote for now.


Fixed it for you then. Also dagger you have to click somewhere to disjoint so to actually cancel anything you'd have to either antecipate the spell and focus a lot or have godly reflexes. Blink same thing, Leap, ok easy one click button but is pretty much a Hero skill, in other words let's call it 'unique'.

Angelic plate, as easy as Leap to disjoint and a cheap item. See my point?

[GGreenBass]

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6093/69388749.png

[Glorify1]

Fixed it for you then. Also dagger you have to click somewhere to disjoint so to actually cancel anything you'd have to either antecipate the spell and focus a lot or have godly reflexes. Blink same thing, Leap, ok easy one click button but is pretty much a Hero skill, in other words let's call it 'unique'.

Angelic plate, as easy as Leap to disjoint and a cheap item. See my point?

Can't disjoint the ultimates anymore, there are few skills you could actually disjoint.

[Ashur]

Really needs a higher cooldown on disjoint as currently you can pretty much negate every single stun from say hammerstorm if you're skilled enough.

[Glorify1]

Really needs a higher cooldown on disjoint as currently you can pretty much negate every single stun from say hammerstorm if you're skilled enough.

There are very few stuns you can disjoint, and you cannot dodge hammerstorm's stun with this.

[Piava]

More cooldown on the active ability imo.

+1, seems imba atm. Cool concept though.

[argnoferich]

Can't disjoint the ultimates anymore, there are few skills you could actually disjoint.

Well you could compile a list of skills that will be blocked. I will vote yes now, though I think the cooldown is a bit short but Im voting for the concept not numbers.

[Glorify1]

Well you could compile a list of skills that will be blocked. I will vote yes now, though I think the cooldown is a bit short but Im voting for the concept not numbers.

Ranged attacks
Orbs like arachna's slow and silencers damage boost
Andromeda's stun
Plague rider's ult
Soul reaper's heal/nuke(shouldn't though, can't disjoint in DotA, believe you can in here though)
Wretched hag's slow
Armadon's slow/spines(spines shouldn't be able to, but they suck on this engine)
Voodoo's cask, his ult's attacks
Polly's ult attacks(for both voodoo and polly, it'll only disjoint current projectiles in hte air. So if the wards attack you all at once and you hit it, it'll make any projectiles in the air miss. With voodoo, his ward can have 2-3 attacks flying, so it can dodge multiple attacks)

Pretty sure that's everything.

[Swift09]

love the concept, if this item was picked up by a team composed of 2 solid tanks (armadon and legion) this could be an awsome early game item. Love it...however, the disjointing may be a little strong.....i would recommend increasing the cd dramatically.(60 sec)

[Galneryus]

Great idea! i think this could be a very intresting item for int heroes that have low HP. GJ!

[serrath]

This kills Plague Rider's ult.

[SLASHER`]

cool concept but the aura stats should be higher. it would only be worth having if 3+ players had the item which isn't going to happen.

[Chafe]

I propose that it only disjoints if you move 50/100 range from the position you had when you used the item.

[Isin]

last post february 2010

lolol

[DaFail]

Just change The thing about "disjoints any current projectiles 14 second cooldown" To OP. Like Pyro Ulti then you use it and it miss. Just sick. Then it´s better like if the item give 10% to miss on spells when used. Then item is not to OP. Else :) good Idea of item

[_Citrisic]

As someone who plays a lot of support i think this item is pretty awsome. That said these forums are useless as this has been around on this forum for a very very long time and like every other item suggestion in here s2 doesnt give a ****. These forums are just like the dream site. They pretend our suggestions matter by giving us a means to express them but really they could care less. They made one dream hero and the activity on the dream site shows how much we as a community frequent it but s2 doesnt even care.