Sal (a rune dominating/ganking SALAMANDER)

[SUNSfan]

Please vote on concept and NOT numbers, as they are subject to change.






Preface

Firstly, I'd like to thank daywiss, xeno, and any others that helped me create this hero concept.

The purpose of this hero is to fill in some holes that I personally feel are missing from HoN at the moment. I realize that S2 is looking for Ranged Agility heroes right now since there is a shortage currently. It is important that the quota be met at some point, but I didn't want to short change my idea just so it fit into what is needed right now. I felt this hero could only be melee, and as this is beta, I thought it wouldn't hurt to see what others think of this concept.

What do I feel is missing from the game currently? I feel there is a need for more melee characters that are able to solo. I'm not saying it is impossible to currently solo as a melee, but I just feel that there is a need for a character that can have some lane presence while going against a ranged carry.

I also feel as if the game is starting to go in a faster-paced direction. Items such as Behemoth's Heart and Sacrificial Stone were changed to counteract the "turtling" effect that so often happens in games. Because of this, new heroes must be implemented that can take advantage of this new mentality. When this concept is coupled with teamwork, it will be very beneficial to the game.

This hero was made to be a melee soloer who can control runes and gank at will. He also will be more effective with teammates around, as you will soon see. I don't claim for this hero to solve all the current issues with HoN gameplay currently, but I think it is a step in the right direction. I look forward to your helpful suggestions and criticisms.





Sal
a blind salamander



http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/100_0986.JPG




Speed: 290
Range: Melee
Affiliation: Legion




Primary Attribute: Agility

Stats
Intelligence 15 + 1.5



Agility 21+3




Strength 18+2






Theme
http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/tongue-2.jpg http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/water.jpg http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/foot.jpg http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/tail.jpg




Sal is a gank-oriented melee agility hero that could be built as a DPS carry or a disabling support.

Story

Sal always knew he was different from the others of his species. It wasn't just his incredible size, nor was it the mutation that left him blind from birth. Just as Sal always felt at home in swift-moving streams and vast lakes, he also was able to delve into the eddies and currents of collective thought. He could feel what those around him were thinking and feeling. This ability was especially jarring when one night, Hellbourne forces destroyed the pond that he called home, killing all of his friends and family. He could feel their pain and final thoughts, even as he fled up a small stream to safety.

Since that fateful day, he has pledged himself to a life of war against the Hellbourne. Just as he adapted to his blindness, he is now adapting his special abilities for one thing. Revenge.





Visuals

As the picture above shows, Sal prefers to be on all fours, but obviously the art team could do many things with him. He has a blue tongue, and will preferably be of the Legion class (but of course could be tempted to the Hellbourne side if enough maggots are provided).




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Tongue Lash

http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/tongue-2.jpg


Sal unleashes his mucus covered tongue in a whip-like motion in order to damage and slow his enemies. (Deals half damage to heroes)

Nuke used to last hit creeps and slow enemies. Can be used to deny creeps.

Level 1: 40 true damage, slows for 50%. Slow lasts 1 second.
Level 2: 80 true damage, slows for 50%. Slow lasts 2 seconds.
Level 3: 120 true damage, slows for 50%. Slow lasts 3 seconds.
Level 4: 160 true damage, slows for 50%. Slow lasts 4 seconds.

Manacost: 30/25/20/15
Cooldown: 8 seconds
Cast Range: 1200
Ability Type: Active
Targeting Type: Unit
Damage Type: True

Usage: This is a copy of Phantom Assassin's Stifling Dagger skill. Gives Sal the ability to last hit creeps from range using very little mana. This gives him presence in his lane and allows him the opportunity to be an efficient melee soloer. Can also be used to slow fleeing enemies.
Visual: After a short delay, Sal's blue tongue shoots out of his mouth and hits its target with very high velocity. Will apply mucus on contact.
Balance: With the initial delay, will be of similar speed as Phantom Assassin's Stifling Dagger skill. Just as in dota, this is effective early/mid game in last hitting creeps and is very effective mid/late game in slowing enemies.
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Natural Habitat

http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/water.jpg

Sal feels at home in the water, allowing him to move around at an increased speed. Sal's regeneration is also increased as an effect. If not in water, Sal can create a puddle on land in which he gains the same effects. When in water, Sal becomes transparent (not invisible), thus being harder to see to the enemy.

Passive move speed increase and HP regeneration in water and surrounding areas. When out of range, effect wears off over a 2 second period. Can also be used as an active AoE spell on land.

Passive Effects:

Level 1: 15% move speed and 1 HP regeneration in river and closely surrounding areas. Gains 25% transparency.
Level 2: 20% move speed and 2 HP regeneration in river and closely surrounding areas. Gains 50% transparency.
Level 3: 25% move speed and 3 HP regeneration in river and closely surrounding areas. Gains 75% transparency.
Level 4: 30% move speed and 4 HP regeneration in river and closely surrounding areas. Gains 100% transparency.

Notes: Can be used in a 700 AoE. Numbers are the same as passive effects. In essence, this skill is used in a similar fashion as the Scorched Earth skill for Lucifer in dota.


Ability Type: Passive/Active

*The following stats apply if skill is used as an active*
Mana cost: 60
Cooldown: 10 seconds
AoE Effect: 700
Casting Range: 800
Duration: 20 Seconds

Usage: Perfect skill for ganking, rune control, and get away sequences. HP regeneration also makes him an efficient solo character.
Visual: A giant puddle of water is created wherever the user places his cursor.
Balance: Hero will gain speed in water and the surrounding cliffs allowing for fast gank action and easy rune control. Roughly 20% of the map is covered in water and surrounding cliffs. The active skill makes this skill more consistent and useful in the later stages of the game. AoE puddle will NOT stack with river.

Explanation: If Sal is in the river or closely surrounding area, he will gain the movespeed increase and HP regen. If he moves onto land, he will lose both the movespeed and HP regen. If he wishes, he can place a puddle of water in an area of his choosing in order to gain those effects back again. If you are reading this and are familiar with dota, then this skill is similar to Lucifer's Scorched Earth. The 2 second fade time applies to the active spell as well. This way you can place the puddle on land, and chase someone and still get the MS boost for up to 2 seconds, even if you are not in the puddle anymore.
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Blind Inspiration

http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/foot.jpg (http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/Ability_Paladin_BeaconofLight.jpg)

Due to his blindness, Sal adapted by understanding the currents of thought that flow around him. It allows him to strike with increased speed and precision, while also warning his allies of impending attacks.

Grants a permanent attack speed bonus to self. For each ally close to you, adds additional temporary attack speed. Cap is 4 (20%). Also produces a Premonition Aura which gives evasion. Cap is 4 (16%).

Level 1: +10% attack speed bonus. Each ally in 500 range adds 5% each to Sal's attack speed. Premonition Aura gives 4% for every ally in range. Cap is 1 so the max evasion is 4%.
Level 2: +15% attack speed bonus. Each ally in 500 range adds 5% each to Sal's attack speed. Premonition Aura gives 4% for every ally in range. Cap is 2 so the max evasion is 8%.
Level 3: +20% attack speed bonus. Each ally in 500 range adds 5% each to Sal's attack speed. Premonition Aura gives 4% for every ally in range. Cap is 3 so the max evasion is 12%.
Level 4: +25% attack speed bonus. Each ally in 500 range adds 5% each to Sal's attack speed. Premonition Aura gives 4% for every ally in range. Cap is 4 so the max evasion is 16%.

Ability Type: Passive

Explanation: Easily the most complex spell Sal possesses. Let me attempt to explain. At level 4, Sal will have a permanent 25% attack speed increase. For each teammate within 500 range of Sal, his attack speed gets increased by a bonus 5%. So let's say your entire team is around you; at level 4 you will get 25% attack speed + (4 x 5%) = 45% attack speed. The +45% attack speed is the highest he can get with this passive. For the Premonition Aura, let us assume that at level 4, you have your entire team within 500 range of you. This means that every teammate and Sal will receive a 4x4% = 16% evasion. If only three teammates are in that range, they will receive a 3x4% = 12% evasion. Hopefully this clears up any confusion.
Usage: Best used in team fights as you will get more attack speed based on how many allies are in a 500 AoE range from you. The Premonition aura also scales based on how many teammates are around.
Visual: No visual needed for Sal's attack speed bonus or evasion.
Balance: This will promote team-oriented ganks. The max +45% attack speed bonus is a little hard to gauge whether it is balanced, but after a lot of collaboration, my peers and I feel it is pretty balanced. The Premonition aura's max is 16%. Wingbow gives you 30% evasion, Snake Bracelet gives you 25% evasion, and Chronos has a 25% evasion. I think the 16% max is fair given that it isn't the most consistent passive.

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Diversion [ULTIMATE]

http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/salamander/tail.jpg (http://www.hackztor.com/shannon/hero/Ability_Creature_Cursed_01.jpg)

Sal sheds his tail and uses it as a distraction.

Tail breaks off -- all enemies in 450 AoE will be forced to surround and attack the tail. Because they leave their backs open to attack, extra damage is taken. After dropping his tail, Sal feels lighter and runs at a faster speed while his tail is gone.

Level 1: Forces enemy heroes in a 450 AoE to attack detached tail. Enemies take 10% extra damage. Tail is destroyed after 6 hits or 3.0 seconds, whichever comes first. If stunned or disjointed during this duration, effects wear off (ministuns don't apply to this). Sal gains 4% movement speed while his tail is gone.
Level 2: Forces enemy heroes in a 450 AoE to attack detached tail. Enemies take 20% extra damage. Tail is destroyed after 8 hits or 3.5 seconds, whichever comes first. If stunned or disjointed during this duration, effects wear off (ministuns don't apply to this). Sal gains 8% movement speed while his tail is gone.
Level 3: Forces enemy heroes in a 450 AoE to attack detached tail. Enemies take 30% extra damage. Tail is destroyed after 10 hits or 4.0 seconds, whichever comes first. If stunned or disjointed during this duration, effects wear off (ministuns don't apply to this). Sal gains 12% movement speed while his tail is gone.

Manacost: 200
Cooldown: Tail will regrow in 90/75/60 seconds.
Ability Type: Active
Targeting Type: Enemy Heroes only
Action Type: Self Position

Usage: Can be used as a getaway mechanism or offensively.
Visual: Hero basically drops his tail, as many lizards can do. Once it drops, the tail will precede to wiggle in order to attract enemies. The hero will actually lose his tail in the process, and the cooldown will be in sync with how fast it grows back on the actual model. Enemy heroes in range will surround the tail and start attacking it.
Balance: The effects of this ultimate are removed if a hero is stunned while under the effect of this ultimate; this will prevent abuse. A lot of collaboration was needed for the numbers of this spell. If you create some scenarios you will see that if any changes need to be made, they should be minor.

Scenario 1 - Early game - Sal ganks top at level 6. There are two enemy heroes there. He drops his tail in correct position and both get disabled. Let's say the average attack speed at this level is about .8 attacks per second. The two heroes will collectively attack the tail 1.6 times a second. This means the time limit of 3 seconds will go into effect before they get the 6 hits in. For 3 or more heroes you stun at this level, they will get the 6 hits off first, thus being less than a 3 second disable.

Scenario 2 - Mid game - Sal ganks a lane of three people, this time his ultimate is level 2. At this level heroes attack about 1 time a second (this is a rough estimate). In this case, the enemy heroes will have destroyed the tail in under 3 seconds (the time limit being 3.5 for this level).

Scenario 3 - Late game - Sal initiates a team fight and stuns 4 enemy heroes with his tail. At this point, this will only stun the opponents for about 2 seconds.

Conclusion: I think the point has been made that this could be an effective disable throughout any part of the game. However, it is apparent that it will disable larger groups for a lesser amount of time, and smaller groups for longer. I feel this scales well throughout the game and accentuates Sal's skills nicely.

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Synergies

I'm rewriting this as the previous Synergy section was poorly written and as a result, people were listing issues regarding synergy even when they were already listed in this section.

1st Skill - Tongue Lash - Can be used offensively or defensively. Primarily used to last hit creeps from a distance or slow fleeing enemies. The main synergy involving this skill would involve his ultimate. To get in position to use your ultimate could be tricky at times, but using Tongue Lash as an opener could help provide you the opportunity to pull it off effectively. And when they try to run away with low HP, you could use this skill in conjuntion with Natural Habitat. Create a puddle of water on the ground to gain move speed and nuke the enemy with your slow. This will provide you with a few extra hits.

2nd Skill - Natural Habitat - Used primarily for getaway sequences, rune controlling, and chasing. When used on land could be especially useful to use in order to gain that extra speed needed to position yourself for an effective ultimate. Also aids in this heroes ability to chase.

3rd Skill - Blind Inspiration - Synergizes well with all the skills. While most effective while around multiple teammates, can still be helpful without any. The extra attack speed is very helpful after an ulti, as you don't know precisely how much time you will have to attack the enemy unimpeded. The evasion is especially helpful in team fights and ganks as Sal does not have much HP and can be taken down relatively easy in many situations. This will allow him to get into melee range and use his ult/slow.

Ultimate - Diversion - This skill could be hard to pull off without the use of any other skills. One way to initiate would be with a Tongue Lash in order to slow the enemies so you can get into position for a good ultimate. Some might think a more effective way to initiate would be to use your Natural Habitat skill in order to gain movement speed, run up to the enemies (with help of evasion if in team fights), and cast the ultimate. While disabled, you can wail on the enemies with the help of your passive attack speed bonus. Finally, you could use your Tongue Lash to slow and finish off enemies if need be.

So in summary, many synergies exist beyond the ones I listed above (especially if you take runes into consideration). I think these skills work well together as well as being relevant to the theme.

Notes

For Tongue Lash, some people have noted that it is very similar to Dark Lady's spell Taint Soul. I concede it is similar, but I argue they are not mutually exclusive. The slow and damage are virtually the same. What isn't the same is how they are used. Dark Lady's Taint Soul's mana cost increases per level, while Tongue Lash lowers per level. It would be hard for Dark Lady to use this spell to last hit creeps and thus be viable in many solo-mid lanes. Her mana capacity does not allow for her to spam her nuke at level 4 (60 mana) for each creep. The opposite can be said for Sal, who's mana pool isn't great either, but because of the lowered mana cost can use this spell for last hitting creeps in a solo lane. For this reason, I don't see a need for a change at this point in time.

Natural Habitat got a major buff. I increased the movement speed from 7/14/21/28 to 15/20/25/30, thus giving him close to max speed in water later in the game. I also gave him transparency so he is harder to see for the enemy. I am keeping the pond creation the same for now. I thought about implementing the Broodmother web concept, but I felt it wasn't right for this hero. This is my reasoning; If I copied broodmother's web, you would basically have a select number of ponds across the map, which can be good in certain situations. But because of the gank oriented gamestyle that was meant for Sal, it wouldn't work because it is not flexible enough. You can't really spam the spell in that case. The reason it works for Broodmother is because she is able to just hide in her webs anytime she pleases. Sal's pond should be used more for ganking and chasing, which would mean he needs a more versatile skill to match. Please post in response to this and tell me if you agree/disagree.

Someone stated that Blind Inspiration needs to be more effective in the early levels of the skill. I completely agree. I think the numbers are fine for level 4 and 3, but the evasion is pretty terrible levels 1 and 2. Any help on this would be appreciated.

For the ultimate, I left it as is for now. I contemplated giving Sal invisibility for after he uses his ult, but this doesn't make a ton of sense conceptually as well as theme-wise. I think the numbers are fine for this skill, but it could use a tweak in another way. Help on this would also be appreciated.

Conclusion

The thing I wanted to promote more than anything was team work and ganking. This would create a faster paced style that many have been hoping would be implemented in some fashion. The increased speed in water (and 2 second fade time) allows this hero to get to either side of the map relatively fast. The addition of being able to use this ability on land makes him a much more viable carry than before. The Natural habitat skill coupled with the attack speed skill (which increases attack speed based on how many allies are in proximity) will promote ganking to the highest degree. This hero should be a valid melee soloer, and could do well 1v1, but would be infinitely better with teammates around. Hopefully this can help bring along the faster-paced style most of us are hoping for. Thanks for reading and I hope you enjoyed this hero concept.

[SUNSfan]

Changelog:

02/25/10 -Nerfed movement speed buff because I added some movementspeed for when Sal loses his tail (thanks StrangeFox)
02/25/10 - Made denying possible with the use of Tongue Lash (thanks Oddalicious)
02/25/10 - Changed how evasion was determined to make it more viable during early/mid-game (thanks yyr_)

11/24/09 - Buffed Natural habitat from 7/14/21/28 MS to 20/25/30/35

11/24/09 - Added transparency to Natural Habitat

11/24/09 - Added a notes section

10/16/09 - Rewrote Synergy section

10/15/09 - Added explanation for Natural Habitat

10/15/09 - Changed Natural Habitat to be a passive AND an active spell, therefore allowing it to be more useful later in game. Skill is now similar to the dota character Lucifer's Scorched Earth spell. - thanks to archkyle and Kajakfaucon

10/14/09 - Fixed Tongue Lash to do half damage to heroes - thx obisunk

[Magissia]

This character looks nice, but can you explain me how the ultimate works ? I read the description 2 times and still don't understand it (maybe because my english sucks)

The character summon a ward and the ward cast a taunt like Lego ?

[daywiss]

yes, its a summon that drops from the body of the hero which automatically taunts in area around it. Its destroyed after certain number of hits like arachnas spider, or after a certain number of seconds, whichever comes first

[Umbron]

I'm liking this hero, concept-wise and skill-wise. Apart from Tongue Lash, all of his moves are unique and give him a distinct feel. Plus the way Blind Inspiration and Diversion are designed, he can fall back as a support as well. His river speed makes him an almost imba ganker/rune control. His ult also gives him very nice synergy with AOE ult heros, which means he has his uses in both single-target ganking and massive team battles. This hero would be a must-pick in about 75% of situations. Good work.

My suggestions:
-You might have already implied it, but Natural Habitat should increase base ms, not overall ms.
-Nerf the damage increase against enemies on the ult. In my opinion, 30% increased damage on all enemies, even if only for two seconds, is overpowered.
-Scepter upgrade: 15 seconds off the cooldown on Diversion, +15% base MS for 10 sec after ulting (you lost your tail weight, so you can move faster :))

[obisunk]

Adding invisibility to the river buff creates more interesting gameplay imho.

Natural Habitat
Level 1 – 5% move speed and Invisibility (Effects last off in 2 seconds when away from river)
Level 2 – 10-% move speed and Invisibility (Effects last off in 4 seconds when away from river)
Level 3 – 15% move speed and Invisibility (Effects last off in 6 seconds when away from river)
Level 4 – 20% move speed and Invisibility (Effects last 8 seconds when away from river)

Invis + ulti if used at the right time could be as powerful as tempest ulti. Theoretically, at max speed, you could go roughly 5000 distance (probably from the mid river to base ramp) at level 4. Timing, planning, coordination is key in using this combo effectively.

Good luck.

[obisunk]

Also, if i recall correctly, Stiffling Dagger did half damage to Heroes. Otherwise I think it'd be too good for such little mana. 160 true dmg to heroes at 1200 range for 15 mana every 8 seconds. Nevermind the slow, at level 7, in 24 seconds, he could do 480 true dmg to a hero for a measly cost of 45 mana. He'd an even better harasser than enchantress with his 1200 range on Tongue Lash.

[Maelstrom2]

The fact that the mana cost actually drops for Tongue Lash kind of bothers me (this shouldn't happen), but other than that, it's a solid hero.

[Rentaromon]

ok a melee hero that can hold his own in a lane battle. plus he is a blind salamander.

first off i think it would be a lot better if he was more of a humanoid Salamander so he could have a weapon and look more like a true hero.

1st: i like it, a good slow and last hit power. But it could be more fun if the toung stayed on them and pulled them in a bit, like for .5 sec it puls them 200 distance twards you then it slows.

2nd: meh. working with the river is interesting but rather useless late game, not much of the fighting is there. i would scrap this power.

3rd: insperation? on a solo blind salamander???? i dont get it.

ulti: a distraction/ taunt power. well its great to get some free hits in but not all that amasing.

overall i love the theme and the 1st has real potential. but rest is very meh. he needs more damage and less speed, plus he is BLIND do some crazy vision things.

[summ1else]

Very nice, la la la.

So let me say that there are enough invis heroes already. Don't add an invis to the river thing and nerf the MS at the same time. Keep the MS and don't add invis.

As far as tongue lash goes, mirror PA's dagger accordingly with regards to damage to heroes (if it's half) if you are going to lower mana cost.

For the ult, I don't think 30% is too much, if only for 4 seconds. Undying has 30 seconds of that kind of amp damage in an aoe around him just without the disable.

[SUNSfan]

Also, if i recall correctly, Stiffling Dagger did half damage to Heroes. Otherwise I think it'd be too good for such little mana. 160 true dmg to heroes at 1200 range for 15 mana every 8 seconds. Nevermind the slow, at level 7, in 24 seconds, he could do 480 true dmg to a hero for a measly cost of 45 mana. He'd an even better harasser than enchantress with his 1200 range on Tongue Lash.

good catch, fixed this to do half damage. thanks

[SUNSfan]

ok a melee hero that can hold his own in a lane battle. plus he is a blind salamander.

first off i think it would be a lot better if he was more of a humanoid Salamander so he could have a weapon and look more like a true hero.

1st: i like it, a good slow and last hit power. But it could be more fun if the toung stayed on them and pulled them in a bit, like for .5 sec it puls them 200 distance twards you then it slows.

2nd: meh. working with the river is interesting but rather useless late game, not much of the fighting is there. i would scrap this power.

3rd: insperation? on a solo blind salamander???? i dont get it.

ulti: a distraction/ taunt power. well its great to get some free hits in but not all that amasing.

overall i love the theme and the 1st has real potential. but rest is very meh. he needs more damage and less speed, plus he is BLIND do some crazy vision things.

Thanks for your good points. As for the second skill being useless late-game, I agree to a certain extent. In the notes for that skill I state it would only be very useful during the early/mid game stages, but just because its not the best late game doesn't mean its garbage in my opinion. Completely dominating the runes is pretty huge.

[Arnald1]

It's pretty good I really like his ult, is different and kinda cool

Not so happy with his pasive, it can give a good deal for escaping, running and ganking but in the importants fight it gives nothing (unless you tooke advantage from it the whole match).

[res_xenocide]

Maybe make the Natural Habitat skill castable instead so it has more use later? Overall, like the hero though.

[Beroya]

I'm not sure about the first skill, mainly because it's better in every way when compared to The Dark Lady's Taint Soul. Same range, better slow (on average), roughly equal damage, lower cooldown, and can be used at least 4 times as often when compared at equal ranks due to mana cost difference.

I'd suggest toning down the range to something like 800-900.

[SUNSfan]

I'm not sure about the first skill, mainly because it's better in every way when compared to The Dark Lady's Taint Soul. Same range, better slow (on average), roughly equal damage, lower cooldown, and can be used at least 4 times as often when compared at equal ranks due to mana cost difference.

I'd suggest toning down the range to something like 800-900.


The skill is a complete copy of PA's in dota, and I apparently forgot to put the disclaimer saying that it was half damage to Heroes. I fixed that earlier today. Does that change your opinion? :D

[archkyle]

interesting.

1st skill gives obvious benefits but make the slow progress too. 50% slow at lvl 1 could be abused to hell... lvl 16 hero with lvl 1 tongue = lvl 16 hero with lvl 4 tongue in regards to chasing power. it does half damage to heroes, at lvl 4 of this skill it deals 80 damage, thas negligable... the slow needs to be the reason for lvling this not the damage. i cans till last hi creeps with 40 damage.

2nd sill is... meh. late game this is worthless, mid game almost worthless. early game maybe useful. this is far too situational and goves him no edge in fights and doesnt help the team at all. remake it.

3rd skill also very situational, in team fights you are gonna use your ult... no one will be attavking you, and there is no reason for anyone to attack you... you have a slow... thats all.... and can run away really fast in the river... remake it.

ult is far from an ult... use this to replace skill 2 or 3 and you got something to work with. use this ability as his staple. meaning, make the other abilities (and the new ult) gain something when used with this. either some kinda of aoe, some kinda of damage spells, or debuff.

as of now, this hero is next to worthless. 2 of his 4 skills are so situational i wouldnt even get them. his 1st skill scales horribly and his ult has maybe two uses. i would rethink this heavily. take a look at some of the other carries in game now and see what makes them succesful.

[SUNSfan]

Thanks for your response. Now let me correct your mistakes.



1st skill gives obvious benefits but make the slow progress too. 50% slow at lvl 1 could be abused to hell... lvl 16 hero with lvl 1 tongue = lvl 16 hero with lvl 4 tongue in regards to chasing power. it does half damage to heroes, at lvl 4 of this skill it deals 80 damage, thas negligable... the slow needs to be the reason for lvling this not the damage. i cans till last hi creeps with 40 damage. .
As stated earlier, this is a copy of PA’s nuke skill. It works fine in dota, and it would work fine in this game. Tell me why a level 1 Tongue Lash is equivalent to a level 4? A 1 second slow is horrible for chasing. A 4 second slow, on the other hand, is great. Is that the only reason to upgrade the skill? No, but it wouldn’t matter either way. You say you can last hit a creep with 40 damage? Try doing that consistently in a lane my friend. Keep in mind most heroes start out with a base of 50+ damage.




2nd sill is... meh. late game this is worthless, mid game almost worthless. early game maybe useful. this is far too situational and goves him no edge in fights and doesnt help the team at all. remake it.

It’s funny how different people’s opinions can be with this skill. There are two kinds of people in HoN. People like you (lesser experienced I presume) who feel it is completely useless (although you say its “maybe useful” early game). Then there are more experienced players who can see the potential in what it brings to the table who think it is completely rigged. Let me explain to you why it is ridiculously good. Imagine a hero built around team ganking. Now imagine that hero soloing mid. Finally, imagine him controlling every single rune with ease. Have you ever experienced a game where someone absolutely dominated the runes? It’s almost not even fair. It still takes skill to use the runes effectively, but how are you going to counter someone who is level 6 with a 1 minute invisibility while you and your teammates are level 4? You can miss out on a lot of experience if you KNOW he has the invis, or you can just get raped silly. Late game it’s not the most useful skill, other than getaway sequences. But if you’ve played enough games, you will realize that if you control the runes, you control the game. Period.



3rd skill also very situational, in team fights you are gonna use your ult... no one will be attavking you, and there is no reason for anyone to attack you... you have a slow... thats all.... and can run away really fast in the river... remake it.


I don’t know whether I should even respond to this when you obviously haven’t even read the skill. Please come back when you have read it. Thanks.


ult is far from an ult... use this to replace skill 2 or 3 and you got something to work with. use this ability as his staple. meaning, make the other abilities (and the new ult) gain something when used with this. either some kinda of aoe, some kinda of damage spells, or debuff.


I agree the ultimate could use some tweaking number-wise, but it is still an AoE disable with amplified damage. This coupled with the third skill (which you haven’t read) make it a perfect ganking combination.



as of now, this hero is next to worthless. 2 of his 4 skills are so situational i wouldnt even get them. his 1st skill scales horribly and his ult has maybe two uses. i would rethink this heavily. take a look at some of the other carries in game now and see what makes them succesful.
This hero is very item dependent, but this doesn’t make him bad by any means. Based on your seemingly uneducated response, the fact that you wouldn’t pick this hero may actually bode well for his creation.

Other than that, thanks for you response.

[SUNSfan]

Bump.

[Ashkahn]

LOL owned. I haven't laughed that hard since BLACKSMITH!

[Tamachan]

His passive is better than his ult - make it have half his (CURRENT) HP instead of 10 attacks??


Something like that would be good i'll vote yes if you consider this change.

EDIT: I've just realised at end gmae that wouldn't help much at all.

And if you trap a single target with it (lets say level 25 thunderbringer in jungle) he is COMPLETELY SCREWED.

ult is fine the way it is I just didn't think enough.

[SUNSfan]

His passive is better than his ult - make it have half his (CURRENT) HP instead of 10 attacks??


Something like that would be good i'll vote yes if you consider this change.

EDIT: I've just realised at end gmae that wouldn't help much at all.

And if you trap a single target with it (lets say level 25 thunderbringer in jungle) he is COMPLETELY SCREWED.

ult is fine the way it is I just didn't think enough.

yeah the ult took a lot of tweaking to get to where i liked it. it basically scales throughout the game but is a little more effective with less enemies involved. do u still think the passive is too good? I'm guessing ur talking about the attack speed and evasion.

[archkyle]

Thanks for your response. Now let me correct your mistakes. i enjoyed reading you views


As stated earlier, this is a copy of PA’s nuke skill. It works fine in dota, and it would work fine in this game. Tell me why a level 1 Tongue Lash is equivalent to a level 4? A 1 second slow is horrible for chasing. A 4 second slow, on the other hand, is great. Is that the only reason to upgrade the skill? No, but it wouldn’t matter either way. You say you can last hit a creep with 40 damage? Try doing that consistently in a lane my friend. Keep in mind most heroes start out with a base of 50+ damage. pa has a very good ult for an item reliant carry. and yes i do consitently last hit with pa's dagger. my 4 years experience helps that. =P


It’s funny how different people’s opinions can be with this skill. There are two kinds of people in HoN. People like you (lesser experienced I presume) who feel it is completely useless (although you say its “maybe useful” early game). Then there are more experienced players who can see the potential in what it brings to the table who think it is completely rigged. Let me explain to you why it is ridiculously good. Imagine a hero built around team ganking. Now imagine that hero soloing mid. Finally, imagine him controlling every single rune with ease. Have you ever experienced a game where someone absolutely dominated the runes? It’s almost not even fair. It still takes skill to use the runes effectively, but how are you going to counter someone who is level 6 with a 1 minute invisibility while you and your teammates are level 4? You can miss out on a lot of experience if you KNOW he has the invis, or you can just get raped silly. Late game it’s not the most useful skill, other than getaway sequences. But if you’ve played enough games, you will realize that if you control the runes, you control the game. Period. I can see why some ight feel its very useful and other not so much. HIm with invis wont be much of a threat at lvl 6 because i assume he weill have this skill and the first skill and not the third (sorry was in a rush didnt read it cloesly, no need to get condisending) the reason i say this might be useful early game is because thats when rune domination counts the most. simply dont go into river, a good team doesnt need runes to be good. the regen is the only thing that might make this good, because he wont have to go to fountain as often. leaving to go get the rune will cause him to lose out on xp too, and unless he has wards ot a teamate buys/has a spell he has a 50/50 chance. so yes, this is great for getting runes in the irght hands and sounds really nice on paper but i can assure you with my 3 years of game design studies this is less effective than you give it credit.



I don’t know whether I should even respond to this when you obviously haven’t even read the skill. Please come back when you have read it. Thanks. yeah, thats my fault there. this is a good spell that can go well with his ult. with the right items, he become like madman but with evasion. it helps teamates which is always good. so yes i like this one.


I agree the ultimate could use some tweaking number-wise, but it is still an AoE disable with amplified damage. This coupled with the third skill (which you haven’t read) make it a perfect ganking combination. yeah like i said above, i agree. not sure why you had to be such an ass with your response.


This hero is very item dependent, but this doesn’t make him bad by any means. Based on your seemingly uneducated response, the fact that you wouldn’t pick this hero may actually bode well for his creation.well i take it back, mostly. still needs work but it is worth the effort.



Other than that, thanks for you response.no, you arent thankful, you are an ass.

in the end my biggest issue is with the second skill... but i still think you can come up with a better ult, and use the current ult as a normal spell. (toned down stats ofcourse)

I hope you enjoy this response.

BTW, i didnt vote yet... if i were a lesser person i would vote no just because of how you assumed such ignorant things about me. but i will wait.

[SUNSfan]

i enjoyed reading you views

pa has a very good ult for an item reliant carry. and yes i do consitently last hit with pa's dagger. my 4 years experience helps that. =P

I can see why some ight feel its very useful and other not so much. HIm with invis wont be much of a threat at lvl 6 because i assume he weill have this skill and the first skill and not the third (sorry was in a rush didnt read it cloesly, no need to get condisending) the reason i say this might be useful early game is because thats when rune domination counts the most. simply dont go into river, a good team doesnt need runes to be good. the regen is the only thing that might make this good, because he wont have to go to fountain as often. leaving to go get the rune will cause him to lose out on xp too, and unless he has wards ot a teamate buys/has a spell he has a 50/50 chance. so yes, this is great for getting runes in the irght hands and sounds really nice on paper but i can assure you with my 3 years of game design studies this is less effective than you give it credit.


yeah, thats my fault there. this is a good spell that can go well with his ult. with the right items, he become like madman but with evasion. it helps teamates which is always good. so yes i like this one.

yeah like i said above, i agree. not sure why you had to be such an ass with your response.

well i take it back, mostly. still needs work but it is worth the effort.

no, you arent thankful, you are an ass.

in the end my biggest issue is with the second skill... but i still think you can come up with a better ult, and use the current ult as a normal spell. (toned down stats ofcourse)

I hope you enjoy this response.

BTW, i didnt vote yet... if i were a lesser person i would vote no just because of how you assumed such ignorant things about me. but i will wait.


Now that you have read it, I appreciate your comments. And yes I'm a jackass. I honestly don't care if people vote no as long as they have read the skills and understand the potential. So feel free to vote no.

In regards to PA's dagger. I'm confused as to what the problem with it is on this character? Just the fact that this character doesn't have a built in crit? The slow is useful just so you can get into position to ulti since it is all based on your position.

Also, about the lost experience with runing. In general if you know where the runes are, the lost experience becomes moot based on how much experience you gain raping opponents with the runes. And yes that means warding... but at a competitive level, who doesn't ward? When I come up with hero concepts, I put the pubbing aspect as a secondary concern. Plus keep in mind that this character is basically going max speed with boots in the river area and surrounding cliffs. Also keep in mind he was meant to solo, meaning he would carry a bottle.

So you honestly think that this character would be a useless gank hero with the invisibility rune? His skills could use tweaks, and his ultimate could probably use some sort of buff, but just imagine him getting to top lane twice as fast as a normal hero and popping his invisibility rune. His ult isn't useless by any means, its basically a disable and an amplified damage of sorts. When I imagine that, coupled with a teammate or two, I personally see rape. Do you disagree?

Also, what do you think could be done to improve the ulti? I wanted to bring together the concept of Pit Lords stun and Dirge's amplified damage.

[archkyle]

well dagger was PA's way of making an enemy stay put, she had blink, but you can run from that. it's not that using dagger is the problem, it just seems redundant on this hero. he has max MS in river and an ult that taunts targets. see my point? i just think he could use something else i guess.

as far as runing is concerned, thats great that competitively he works good, but this is a pub game first and a league game second regardless of how you feel. i think, maybe tone it down over all and make it a constant passive BUT he gains even more ms in the river. i think the whole "only works in river" concept is what urks (sp?) me because what happens when new maps come out and there is no river? like the other 5v5 map (cont remember the name)

after thinking a bit more on it, he would make an excellent gank hero because of his ult. but it is still lacking, its like having a second lego lol.

to be honest, i prolly had a string of bad games and was in a bad mood when i read this. but with clear mind, i can see this going somewhere. in the end, i just feel he is lacking something... i wish i could say what that was.

well, ill give it a positive vote. i am man enough to say when i was wrong.

[broceratopZ]

Now that you have read it, I appreciate your comments. And yes I'm a jackass. I honestly don't care if people vote no as long as they have read the skills and understand the potential. So feel free to vote no.

In regards to PA's dagger. I'm confused as to what the problem with it is on this character? Just the fact that this character doesn't have a built in crit? The slow is useful just so you can get into position to ulti since it is all based on your position.

Also, about the lost experience with runing. In general if you know where the runes are, the lost experience becomes moot based on how much experience you gain raping opponents with the runes. And yes that means warding... but at a competitive level, who doesn't ward? When I come up with hero concepts, I put the pubbing aspect as a secondary concern. Plus keep in mind that this character is basically going max speed with boots in the river area and surrounding cliffs. Also keep in mind he was meant to solo, meaning he would carry a bottle.

So you honestly think that this character would be a useless gank hero with the invisibility rune? His skills could use tweaks, and his ultimate could probably use some sort of buff, but just imagine him getting to top lane twice as fast as a normal hero and popping his invisibility rune. His ult isn't useless by any means, its basically a disable and an amplified damage of sorts. When I imagine that, coupled with a teammate or two, I personally see rape. Do you disagree?

Also, what do you think could be done to improve the ulti? I wanted to bring together the concept of Pit Lords stun and Dirge's amplified damage.

Bro, you shouldn't use "rape" so casually. That's not a word to just throw around.

[Kajakfaucon]

Not incredibly thrilled about the 50% slow on the first skill (I personally think it should be nerfed in dota as well.) But that's just numbers.

Only thing I would suggest, is, have a pool of water be stored in the characters tail, that way, when you ulti a pool (prolly about 400/500/600 aoe) of water is created. The only thing this does, is allow his second skill to be more useful later on.

That's about it. Nicely done other than that. Wouldn't be my favorite hero to play, but definitely a nice and solid addition. T-up.

[SUNSfan]

I'm starting to see your guys points on the river skill. I stand by the fact that I think it is VERY useful early/mid game, but overall its not the most consistent skill. So a tweak is definitely in order. Perhaps a constant speed bonus + more in river (as you said) is warranted. Kaja you make an interesting suggestion, I just don't know how to make that work theme wise. Lizards don't exactly carry buckets of water in their tail :P

And as for catering towards other maps, I realize that is a potential issue if and only if people actually start playing those maps. Thanks for the input

[archkyle]

Only thing I would suggest, is, have a pool of water be stored in the characters tail, that way, when you ulti a pool (prolly about 400/500/600 aoe) of water is created. The only thing this does, is allow his second skill to be more useful later on.

ta da! add this, and i think you've got something near perfect.

[archkyle]

Kaja you make an interesting suggestion, I just don't know how to make that work theme wise. Lizards don't exactly carry buckets of water in their tail :P

and giants can slam fissures into the ground that disappear after a few seconds? giant exist? succubus is real? good lord, the world is doomed...

(playful sarcasm)

=P

[SUNSfan]

lol. I personally have no issue w/ stuff that doesn't make sense. But i get blasted by some people for things that don't fit w/ the theme. I'll see what I can think of

[SUNSfan]

OK, i just thought of a great idea and implemented it for his Natural Habitat skill. I basically nerfed the movespeed a bit and created the option for it to be used as an active spell, where he creates a puddle of water on land (similar to Lucifer's Scorched Earth). Remember though that the skill is ALSO a passive that works in the river without any mana required. I think that solves some issues. Lemme know what u think.

[SUNSfan]

credit is given in the changelog btw... lol don't want it to look like i came up w/ it myself

[Ashkahn]

seems like a good team hero. His second skill seemed kinda weak in certain situations and later in the game, but your changes make it must more viable. T-up

[archkyle]

thats what happens when jerks argue with one another, things get done!!!! lol

[SUNSfan]

thats what happens when jerks argue with one another, things get done!!!! lol

lol, let this be a lesson to all those e-fight haters

[deathdawn]

Theme seems okay.

1st Skill:
Nothing to say here although I suggest you tweak it a bit; exact copies of skills aren't really that awesome. You could make it so that the shot deals base damage and damage over time (acidic spit I guess) Other than that keep the slow. (Keep damage viable) less for farming and more for actual damage. It might seem like Dark Lady's slow though. As it is comparable to Mortred's old dagger.

2nd Skill:
Kind of similar to Lucifer's Flame skill. Only difference is that it seems to have a passive effect as well. Not sure if other people noticed this but in a way it does work well with the slow of the first skill. Problem is it doesn't seem too original as it is a mashup of two heroes skills so far. You could tweak it a bit so it isn't circular (maybe a straight path instead)

3rd Skill:
Seems rather weird and overcomplicated; It's a passive I suggest you make it so that he gains attackspeed and another effect but don't base it on the amount of allied units beside you cus that doesn't really fit with the skill description. You could make it attackspeed and a chance to immobilize (not stun).

Ultimate:
The concept of the skill seems solid enough; although I don't see how it synergizes with the first three skills as he seems to be a physical fighter. Other than that I believe the AoE is rather big as a skill like this will force everyone to clump together and open up a huge path for an AoE fest. The concept of forced attack and more damage seem rather awkward with the hero. Not sure if it really fits at all. Maybe you could rework it or something.

Sorry if the comments are rather dull; very late here.

P.S. I'd appreciate it if you could comment on my heroes the Astral Sentinel and Aqua.

[SUNSfan]

Rewrote synergy section, hopefully its more clear. As usual people are voting no that don't bother giving me reasons for doing so or suggestions. This makes me a sad panda :(

[Kajakfaucon]

Looks awesome now. Gj!

[SUNSfan]

kaja im gonna post on ur hero, just wont have time for a bit

-edit, btw u should put the F4F in ur signature

[broceratopZ]

I think the changes that have been made makes this hero much more functional and complete. Looking good.

[kerespup]

Sal the Blind Salamander
Hey look it's Sal! You know! Sal! Pollywog's distant relative. Ahhh.. Good times, Good times...

Tongue Lash
Ahhhh... Stifling Dagger, one of the skills that I hated so much. I hate it!

Nah, just kidding. Tongue Lash from what I see is a port of Stifling Dagger as you described, and is quite one of the many grandiose chasing and ganking skills that is quite needed in HoN. I have nothing much to say about this skill but it's quite a nice skill that needs to be implemented.

Natural Habitat
FINALLY! Terrain Related skills, always wanted to see one of these. As a (somehow) enhanced version of Lucifer's Scorched Earth (as there is already water present in the river). This is quite a nice skill that makes use of terrain, and making map-adaptation a strategy more than a bonus. Giving it an active skill version is quite grand as some maps (like 1 certain 3vs3 map) may not have water sources (asides from the fountains lol).

Blind Inspiration
I was wondering when the "Blind" part of the concept would start to kick in, and bam, there we have it. It's quite an interesting skill and makes it necessary for Sal to be in team fights and not go leaving the team behind (like a certain ninja-like hero we know and love/hate), being able to generate an aura wherein the effects' power depends on the number of allied heroes in range makes it quite an interesting detail and pushes teamwork. Fits in with the concept nicely, and I won't judge numbers because numbers are bleh.

Diversion
Nothing too grand about this skill. It's basically a detached version of Legionnaire's Taunt which applies a increased damage taken state to those affected by it. Is quite useful in many ways just in the many ways where Legionnaire's Taunt is useful, however considering this is a detached version it makes several details such as escaping and initiating more impacting.

Closing Remarks:
To be honest, this is the first hero that I've reviewed which deems no need for 'time' to be reworked as it is already quite an interesting concept and suggestion. To that I say, let the judging begin!

Court is now in session for the Trial of "Sal the Blind Salamander"

Phoenix Wright: Hold It! The Ultimate does not fit in well with the ongoing combination of skills.

Miles Edgeworth: OBJECTION! The Ultimate conveys a distraction which creates many openings for his 1st, 2nd and 3rd skills to apply themselves, as well for allies to be able to take chance of this window of opportunity.

Phoenix Wright: Take that! I'd like to present "Blind Inspiration"! I'm sure there's a contradiction here!

Judge: There is not! I'm sorry Mr. Wright but I'd have to Decapitate your Penalty Bar.

Phoenix Wright: nooooo!

Judge: The court finds Sal the Blind Salamander...

GUILTY!

Of getting a Thumbs Up from KeresPup

Keres: You got carried away again huh?
KeresPup: *swt* Probably

[dandylion]

As a rule of thumb, anything that requires positioning in a very specific location (like river) is a bad idea. Keeper of the Forest gets away with it because virtually the entire map is less than 500 units from a tree of some sort. So unless he can create his own waterholes to go invisible in, I think it's a very useless skill to a great degree.

[Galneryus]

So simple and so cool. Very good idea!

P.S.: I laughed a lot too ^^

[SUNSfan]

Sal the Blind Salamander
Hey look it's Sal! You know! Sal! Pollywog's distant relative. Ahhh.. Good times, Good times...

Tongue Lash
Ahhhh... Stifling Dagger, one of the skills that I hated so much. I hate it!

Nah, just kidding. Tongue Lash from what I see is a port of Stifling Dagger as you described, and is quite one of the many grandiose chasing and ganking skills that is quite needed in HoN. I have nothing much to say about this skill but it's quite a nice skill that needs to be implemented.

Natural Habitat
FINALLY! Terrain Related skills, always wanted to see one of these. As a (somehow) enhanced version of Lucifer's Scorched Earth (as there is already water present in the river). This is quite a nice skill that makes use of terrain, and making map-adaptation a strategy more than a bonus. Giving it an active skill version is quite grand as some maps (like 1 certain 3vs3 map) may not have water sources (asides from the fountains lol).

Blind Inspiration
I was wondering when the "Blind" part of the concept would start to kick in, and bam, there we have it. It's quite an interesting skill and makes it necessary for Sal to be in team fights and not go leaving the team behind (like a certain ninja-like hero we know and love/hate), being able to generate an aura wherein the effects' power depends on the number of allied heroes in range makes it quite an interesting detail and pushes teamwork. Fits in with the concept nicely, and I won't judge numbers because numbers are bleh.

Diversion
Nothing too grand about this skill. It's basically a detached version of Legionnaire's Taunt which applies a increased damage taken state to those affected by it. Is quite useful in many ways just in the many ways where Legionnaire's Taunt is useful, however considering this is a detached version it makes several details such as escaping and initiating more impacting.

Closing Remarks:
To be honest, this is the first hero that I've reviewed which deems no need for 'time' to be reworked as it is already quite an interesting concept and suggestion. To that I say, let the judging begin!

Court is now in session for the Trial of "Sal the Blind Salamander"

Phoenix Wright: Hold It! The Ultimate does not fit in well with the ongoing combination of skills.

Miles Edgeworth: OBJECTION! The Ultimate conveys a distraction which creates many openings for his 1st, 2nd and 3rd skills to apply themselves, as well for allies to be able to take chance of this window of opportunity.

Phoenix Wright: Take that! I'd like to present "Blind Inspiration"! I'm sure there's a contradiction here!

Judge: There is not! I'm sorry Mr. Wright but I'd have to Decapitate your Penalty Bar.

Phoenix Wright: nooooo!

Judge: The court finds Sal the Blind Salamander...

GUILTY!

Of getting a Thumbs Up from KeresPup

Keres: You got carried away again huh?
KeresPup: *swt* Probably




Haha, epic review man. Thanks a lot :)

[SUNSfan]

As a rule of thumb, anything that requires positioning in a very specific location (like river) is a bad idea. Keeper of the Forest gets away with it because virtually the entire map is less than 500 units from a tree of some sort. So unless he can create his own waterholes to go invisible in, I think it's a very useless skill to a great degree.


I don't know what to say other than read the skill again.

[zircon]

I don't like this one. His water movement thing is too much like Sandwraith, while his Ult is sorta like Legionnaire. Doesn't seem to fit in with the current roster, and isn't unique enough IMO.

[Solitary1]

What is the synergy for this hero..? There is none..

EDIT: Sorry, go invis and taunt the team for like 4 seconds. Then do...... what?
This hero is like.. legionnaire if he had no spin. Badbadbadbad.

[jay`t]

the hero is a straight ganker / initiator / chaser... legionairre is a tank/initiator/burst damage (well, ulti)

[SUNSfan]

What is the synergy for this hero..? There is none..

EDIT: Sorry, go invis and taunt the team for like 4 seconds. Then do...... what?
This hero is like.. legionnaire if he had no spin. Badbadbadbad.


Yay for people who can't read :)

Let's see...for synergy try actually reading the synergy section. And on top of that, you may want to actually read the skills too, since this hero doesn't go invisible. Thanks

[G3st4p0]

I agree fully thus goes expensive improvement very therefore you the very easy one thus! :confused:

[Kylskap]

how would he cope on the 3v3 map though :p?

[archkyle]

I agree fully thus goes expensive improvement very therefore you the very easy one thus! :confused:

good god, WTF?

[HClCaSaT]

I dig it. Seems balanced too. Voted Yes.

Please check out my suggestions.

[Szyrex]

Nice idea mate - got my vote. Skills look nice and Balanced.

[_Archangel_]

Excellent. Third skill needs buff though; numbers are simply too low.

[Guyv3r]

I gotta say i like this hero a lot. Great concept!!

Please implement so i can use it right away :p

[Bane2k4]

My issue here is with the water-related ability.

Yes, he can create puddles to temporarily gain the benefits, this is true, and clearly a requirement for this skill to be even considered to be more than incredibly situational.

My issue is that the puddle you create is inferior in use to the actual river in Forests of Caldavar. This means that whenever NOT at the river, or whenever on a map WITHOUT water (Darkwood Vale, possible future maps) the ability is diminished in usage.

Map-specific terrain abilities, are in my view, largely a bad idea, as it forces a constraint on either future map types (to incorporate enough of said terrain) or on the hero itself (in terms of when it's viable to be picked).

The counter-balance of the activateable version is a step in the right direction, and one that if properly implemented would make my qualms about terrain abilities null.

I believe instead of a static, relatively small AoE puddle, this needs to be something similar to Sand Wraith's move - however instead of targetted, it should simply be a self-targetted ability where Sal summons water around him for X seconds as he moves. Visually, there'd be a small puddle around Sal for the duration and a fading trail of water behind him whenever he moves.

This change would close the gap in usefulness between the current puddle and actually being in the river, as well as giving the activateable version much more versatility in other areas of Caldavar, in other maps lacking water like Darkwood, and in any future maps that may or may not contain strategic water areas.

Other than that, T-UP.

[SUNSfan]

My issue here is with the water-related ability.

Yes, he can create puddles to temporarily gain the benefits, this is true, and clearly a requirement for this skill to be even considered to be more than incredibly situational.

My issue is that the puddle you create is inferior in use to the actual river in Forests of Caldavar. This means that whenever NOT at the river, or whenever on a map WITHOUT water (Darkwood Vale, possible future maps) the ability is diminished in usage.

Map-specific terrain abilities, are in my view, largely a bad idea, as it forces a constraint on either future map types (to incorporate enough of said terrain) or on the hero itself (in terms of when it's viable to be picked).

The counter-balance of the activateable version is a step in the right direction, and one that if properly implemented would make my qualms about terrain abilities null.

I believe instead of a static, relatively small AoE puddle, this needs to be something similar to Sand Wraith's move - however instead of targetted, it should simply be a self-targetted ability where Sal summons water around him for X seconds as he moves. Visually, there'd be a small puddle around Sal for the duration and a fading trail of water behind him whenever he moves.

This change would close the gap in usefulness between the current puddle and actually being in the river, as well as giving the activateable version much more versatility in other areas of Caldavar, in other maps lacking water like Darkwood, and in any future maps that may or may not contain strategic water areas.

Other than that, T-UP.

You bring up some interesting points. If I were to implement what ur saying, would there be any point to keeping the passive use in water? It makes sense theme-wise but as you said it would be next to useless on other maps.

[ZombieFewd]

Groovy hero concept. Did you come up with the name from an Earthworm Jim level? Just a guess.

[RubberSOUL]

this hero is legit. add him.

[Stalias]

You could change is second ability to be like brood mother's webs (minus the invis) and make them permanent with a limit of 4. Either way, you deserve a vote YES!

[archkyle]

You could change is second ability to be like brood mother's webs (minus the invis) and make them permanent with a limit of 4. Either way, you deserve a vote YES!
this is a good idea. but up the limit to like 6-sh. cause they dont grant invis.

[ma5]

The ultimate is really well done, haha. This hero seems like a great roaming hero, I would really like to play him for this reason.

[Eros]

I truly like this concept. T-up, however let me offer you one suggestion:

The first skill, a port of Mortred's Dagger, could perhaps be replaced in consideration that DL's nuke is very similar. I realize the range/half damage modifiers change them a little, but they fulfill the exact same roles... Low mana/damage nukes for last hitting creeps and slowing heroes. The skill does fit well in your concept, but I think if you can come up with a way to mix it up a bit, your suggestion might have a better chance of being implemented.

Then again, look at how many forms of Leap are in this game... So who really knows!

[EeyoreXD]

Nice concept. I hope your hero idea makes it into the game

[Groz]

I think the 2nd ability should be more like Broodmothers web things in dota, not lucifers scorched earth

[SoerenRyge]

I really enjoy the 2nd skill. If your laning against him, you barely get the chance to miss him, and BAM his ganging mid or the other lane. OR how many times do you see a lane getting ganged, just as you're on your way to it? Then your teammates die, and you bitterly wish you had more ms. This way you just speed up there, drop a tail and you have a much better chance. And it can be used for joining lanes pushes fast later in the game. T-Up!

[Rentaromon]

i know i have already review but i will again to see if it has changed since becomeing popular.

1st: an ok power, i would add a small pull to you and lower the speed loss a bit.

2nd: u do know there are 2 maps right? and possibly more later on that dont have any water at all. this would be the only power in game that is effected by where u are on the map, i think this power might kill your chances.

3rd: blind leadership???? it makes no sence.

ulti: hmm its ok, one possible thing you could do is make it auto activate if your health falls to a certain level, like what a real salamader would do.

[promanski]

Different, I liek

[Ziibii]

i know i have already review but i will again to see if it has changed since becomeing popular.

1st: an ok power, i would add a small pull to you and lower the speed loss a bit.

2nd: u do know there are 2 maps right? and possibly more later on that dont have any water at all. this would be the only power in game that is effected by where u are on the map, i think this power might kill your chances.

3rd: blind leadership???? it makes no sence.

ulti: hmm its ok, one possible thing you could do is make it auto activate if your health falls to a certain level, like what a real salamader would do.
Anything is possible in fantasy game right? ;)

[Passthechips]

Why not allow Sal the ability to create permanent 'ponds' in select areas much like the Broodmother from DOTA, he would be able to place a maximum of 'x' ponds around the map and gain the same speed bonus' from them as from the river.

[Vanarchy]

I like the concept of this hero :)

Tongue Lash
Dark Lady got this Phantom Assassin's ability, so my question is obvious: are you going to remake this skill?

Natural Habitat
I wanted to see the skill which grants you bonuses on the river for a long time and I think you did great job balancing it and adding possibility to create water-covered areas. Activation of this ability is similar to Zephyr's ultimate, but it gives self-only MS boost and no AS, so no balance issues here. I would suggest making Sal transparent (not invisible) during his trips through the water - Sal can still be attacked, but it's more difficult for your opponents to spot him. When hit during being transparent, the colors of Sal's skin return to normal or change to some flashy color (as an indication of being damaged) for a brief second, then Sal becomes transparent again.

Blind Inspiration
This ability deserves it's right to be on this hero because it's logically correct: it proves that Salamanders are very agile creatures. I would somehow increase evasion chances at first and seconds levels of this skill, but as it locked to the number of surrounding teammates, I find it unwise to change this mechanic.

Diversion [ULTIMATE]
Ultimate is a little bit confusing, because opponents... become obsessed and focus... your tail. But the ability is easy to use and will help your allies prevail in teamfights.

All in all, this hero is well balanced, all of Sal's abilities are easy to understand. Let me know if you are going to change first skill - I could probably help you.

T-up for both concept and numbers.

[ThePope]

Hot damn. This is pretty well thought out. Although I feel like the escape mechanism might be a bit more useful if rather than clearly dropping the tail (heroes slightly out of range will promptly stun/whatever him as he flees at low health), it creates an illusion that lasts for the period you mentioned while turning him invisible (possible increasing movement speed) for a few seconds. Then it stands a much better chance of letting him get away while still serving the purpose of a warding taunt.

[SUNSfan]

Thanks for the suggestions boys...I will think about them sometime next week and try to implement whatever I feel is necessary. Will also comment on the heroes for the F4F people.

[SUNSfan]

OK. I changed some things with Natural Habitat and added a Notes section that addresses some concerns and suggestions you have all made. Please post in response to that whether you agree or disagree. Thanks.

[Klyvaren]

I really like your concept all in all, but this did feel to similar to Dark Lady's corresponding skill.

Tongue Lash
An easy way to mix up this skill a little bit would be to remove the slowing portion and either taunting the target for 0.5 seconds, so it appears that they follow the tongue back before it disconnects from the target.

Or simply pull the target closer with the tongue, this could work in conjunction with other heroes on lanes.

Maybe that Moon Queen is staying just outside range for Hammerstorm to nail her with a hammer. Tongue Lash would pull her close enough for Hammerstorm to fling some metal at her!
I'm thinking roughly the same pullback distance as a tablet of command would push you forward.

__________
I apologize if someone already had this idea in this thread. It's late and I didn't have time to look at all replies.

[Goaky]

Adding invisibility to the river buff creates more interesting gameplay imho.

Natural Habitat
Level 1 – 5% move speed and Invisibility (Effects last off in 2 seconds when away from river)
Level 2 – 10-% move speed and Invisibility (Effects last off in 4 seconds when away from river)
Level 3 – 15% move speed and Invisibility (Effects last off in 6 seconds when away from river)
Level 4 – 20% move speed and Invisibility (Effects last 8 seconds when away from river)

Invis + ulti if used at the right time could be as powerful as tempest ulti. Theoretically, at max speed, you could go roughly 5000 distance (probably from the mid river to base ramp) at level 4. Timing, planning, coordination is key in using this combo effectively.

Good luck.

Broodmother's web anyone? Awesome idea OP. :warb:

[Trckehzauruz]

I approve this suggestion!

[CremeFresh]

but this hero is only based on the "dota map" ... what is about the other maps??

[Vanarchy]

Well, Sal can still create water-covered areas, so existance of river on the map is benefitical ofcourse, but not a mandatory.

[ScumbagBlues]

I like this hero suggestion because its not deliberately new hero OP and its unique. Thumbs up.

[resp]

hah, a pretty funny concept and skill descriptions, would like him ingame
T-up, besides the fact that imo the ulti is abit too drastic on the +30%dmg, altho its only for 2-3sec, imagine his ult + an incoming magmus/behemoth/dark lady. absolute masacre.
idea is nice, just the values seem to have wrong numbers, on one side you only have 2-3secs in which you cant get many spells/attacks off, but on the other side you have the above presented scenario. The gap between the 2 is too big imo, you could make it last 3-5sec and only 15-20% dmg at max lvl.

[SUNSfan]

hah, a pretty funny concept and skill descriptions, would like him ingame
T-up, besides the fact that imo the ulti is abit too drastic on the +30%dmg, altho its only for 2-3sec, imagine his ult + an incoming magmus/behemoth/dark lady. absolute masacre.
idea is nice, just the values seem to have wrong numbers, on one side you only have 2-3secs in which you cant get many spells/attacks off, but on the other side you have the above presented scenario. The gap between the 2 is too big imo, you could make it last 3-5sec and only 15-20% dmg at max lvl.


thx for the comments. It's hard to tell whether its overpowered or not, but when I look at Dirge in dota having a 30% amplified damage that lasts 30 seconds to whichever enemy he attacks or is nearby, I tend to lean toward it not being overpowered. But who knows unless we actually play it right?

[D0ri]

Very well thought out and imo balanced hero. Only think that bothers me, is that i wouldve made him ranged. Snatching last hits with his tongue. That would be awesome. The dagger-like spell could be some sort of poison spit.

Stat gains are just numbers i know, but i would decrease his agi gain a little, its very high for a ganking hero. (madman 2,75/lvl, magebane 2,8/lvl, dark lady 3,1)

[Powerhouse]

You could also give him somekind of movement speed buff after his ult, like "Without the tail, Sal feels lighter and runs at a 4/8/12 % increased movement speed while the tail is gone".

This would mean he would have increased movement speed with his tail gone. Although he allready has a nice movement speed buff, so instead maybe the Enemy heroes following his tracks would get slowed, if his disable fails?

"When Sal drops his tail, old fluid and dirt from the river starts to fall from his body too, slowing all enemies following his tracks for 30/40/50 % movementspeed for a duration of 6/7/8 seconds."

I dont know, just felt that it would add to his ult, which would be useless if dodged, but now it might save him even though someone come flanking in and he tries to escape. Voted yes, by the way. :)

[SUNSfan]

You could also give him somekind of movement speed buff after his ult, like "Without the tail, Sal feels lighter and runs at a 4/8/12 % increased movement speed while the tail is gone".

This would mean he would have increased movement speed with his tail gone. Although he allready has a nice movement speed buff, so instead maybe the Enemy heroes following his tracks would get slowed, if his disable fails?

"When Sal drops his tail, old fluid and dirt from the river starts to fall from his body too, slowing all enemies following his tracks for 30/40/50 % movementspeed for a duration of 6/7/8 seconds."

I dont know, just felt that it would add to his ult, which would be useless if dodged, but now it might save him even though someone come flanking in and he tries to escape. Voted yes, by the way. :)


nice suggestion. i'll add it this coming week when i got time, thanks :)

[Over9000]

I like the concept, so i've voted yes, but i have to ask, does the salamander tongue work as a denial hit too?

[HoLyVieR]

2nd skill concept is really nice and it's something that could be balance and work well in game.

[nikoPSK]

Interesting ideas, the tail ult seems alright (I don't have have any better suggestions; because I'm bad at creating ideas!) for a ganker, although could be improved.

(Not a nuke, since most gankers have nukes; but something interesting like Andro's swap)

[Escorponox]

Manacost and durations must be tweaked, but i love the concept.

[SUNSfan]

I like the concept, so i've voted yes, but i have to ask, does the salamander tongue work as a denial hit too?


I don't see why not. I'll add that as well very soon

[yyr_]

Make the evasion a static 4% per player. Early game it is unlikely that people will stat into a passive, and even less likely because the first two skills are amazing early game.

Even if they did stat into it, there will only be one other person in the lane so 4% evasion isnt going to change anything. Even if you were counterganking it would probably on be 3-4 in the lane so about 10% evasion there.

Make it a static 4% per "n".

[SUNSfan]

Make the evasion a static 4% per player. Early game it is unlikely that people will stat into a passive, and even less likely because the first two skills are amazing early game.

Even if they did stat into it, there will only be one other person in the lane so 4% evasion isnt going to change anything. Even if you were counterganking it would probably on be 3-4 in the lane so about 10% evasion there.

Make it a static 4% per "n".


wow that is actually really good. will add as soon as i can. much appreciated

[SUNSfan]

Added your suggestions for the most part. thanks again guys.

[Blaky039]

Very cool ult :D

[milkheartyou]

voted no because of the invis thing

[marcadia]

Very cool concept and good skills :)

[Dagarin]

if you still haven't figured a good config for the evasion buff, I'd personally say that you should use 2/3/3/4 people max for a 8/12/12/16% setup, each of these is appropriate for the skill levels and still allows you to keep levels 3 and 4 strong without overpowering, although a 16% dodge aura sounds kind of insane until you consider the 500 range on the aura. personally id like to see a weaker dodge chance with a larger aura range.