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darksorrow
07-18-2009, 06:13 PM
so what were you thinking when you created a hero with troll's ulti, but also gave him a windwalk and a blink with aoe slow?

seriously needs to find some people who know how to balance heroes...

troll was the most overpowered hero when you allow him to farm in dota, so now he gains blink and windwalk, practically ungankable, you call that balance?

I would like to have a mode option where host can ban the use of certain heroes. (similar to -CM)

based on hero ban ratio, you will know which heroes are imbalanced, and fix them.

_M_M_
07-18-2009, 06:16 PM
Not talking about the imbaness or not of the Madman,

But troll was a strong carry because of his ulti in synergy with his bash, which madman does not have.

darksorrow
07-18-2009, 06:51 PM
you also forgot the fact that madman has passive crit, and HoN's hero damage is higher compare to dota's at higher levels.

that makes farming neutrals much easier and when you can kill an enemy in 3-4 hits, who needs bash? can you run away from him? no, because he has windwalk and blink+slow.

I'd trade a 10% bash for windwalk and blink+slow any time.


bash is in no way imba, otherwise there wouldn't be a 25% bash item.


You just can't make a late game carry hero with the mobility of clinkz and QoP combined, on top of able to use armlet and SnY to kill a farmed 5-man team.

Mournilg
07-18-2009, 06:59 PM
I agree with him, Madman is really imbalanced, he is almost impossible to gank due to his invisibility and speed (even with Arachnia slowing him, tested).
If he can farm just a little he can change the result of a game alone.

Played a game where we were winning, he killed one hero in our side, became invisible, killed an other one, jumped on a third, killed him and finished the two last by pursuing them to the base.

A group of five heroes with only 2 levels between them and madman (well stuffed too) ganked by Madman alone. I think there is a lot of work to do to lower him a little but keeping him a good hero though.

Snidgel
07-18-2009, 07:05 PM
So many posts, so many wrongs. Dusts/Wards/Disables vs Madman. Madman gets KO'ed. Although I find it silly that he got Barrel roll, if it were only for the troll ulti and weavers walk it'd be ok. But to give him a secondary escape/offensive mechanism that synergizes so well with his other skills are sick!! Sick I tell ya!

But well, he's agi and just like any other agility hero he's easily CC'd and nuked down until he gets a Shrunken Head, and when he does you have to avoid him when it's on.

Also I assume you guys never heard of the item blademail, but even though I cant remember the HoN equalent at the moment it's a gamebreaking item versus agility heroes that you feel are too fed. Since if he jumps someone and that someone pops his blademail the team should be able to gib him while he has to decide whether to suicide or stop attacking hence making him useless those seconds.

I'd love to see the game a Madman solos 5 people solo.

darksorrow
07-18-2009, 07:20 PM
wards, doesnt work, mobility.
dust, doesnt work, mobility.
disable, yes, temporary if we can dps him down, ignoring his other teammates.

oh, there's an item called bkb in dota, you heard of it? I think most troll players in dota get that as a second big item.

blademail? you think that'll last long enough for us to run all the way back to fountain? because if not, windwalk and blink+slow will catch up to you no matter how fast you run.


I don't really care what items counters what skill, you can't force an entire team to go for 1 item because the other team picked a hero.

Again, the balance issue really is mobility+physical damage. take away the mobility and hes good to go.

Keldosh
07-18-2009, 08:16 PM
I don't really care what items counters what skill, you can't force an entire team to go for 1 item because the other team picked a hero.

What about a heavy nuker/disabler? I do believe that a top item to get is a BKB. What if a stealth hero is picked? you MUST get 1 of 3 items... Items always have been used to counter hero abilities.

Ironfray
07-18-2009, 08:24 PM
wards, doesnt work, mobility.
dust, doesnt work, mobility.
disable, yes, temporary if we can dps him down, ignoring his other teammates.

oh, there's an item called bkb in dota, you heard of it? I think most troll players in dota get that as a second big item.

blademail? you think that'll last long enough for us to run all the way back to fountain? because if not, windwalk and blink+slow will catch up to you no matter how fast you run.


I don't really care what items counters what skill, you can't force an entire team to go for 1 item because the other team picked a hero.

Again, the balance issue really is mobility+physical damage. take away the mobility and hes good to go.

You cry way too much bro. Don't scream nerf when you are incapable of countering his abilities. Do you play easy mode? Things tend to become unbalanced fast in there, not so much in non em's.

Mournilg
07-18-2009, 08:24 PM
Just played Madman, and i must say he is weak at the beginning of the game but when you stuff a little, he becomes a monster. I managed to return the situation that was really bad for us in a victory i'm not proud of.

A big 4 vs 4, 3 kills by Madman with 4 levels less than the faced heroes.

They should change barrel roll, invisibility or damage. He's just too powerfull.

Keldosh
07-18-2009, 08:29 PM
Just played Madman, and i must say he is weak at the beginning of the game but when you stuff a little, he becomes a monster. I managed to return the situation that was really bad for us in a victory i'm not proud of.

A big 4 vs 4, 3 kills by Madman with 4 levels less than the faced heroes.

They should change barrel roll, invisibility or damage. He's just too powerfull.

I see madman as any other carry. You either sit on him and let him get 0 gold, or you prep yourself for utter annihilation. I've played plenty of games where he has dominated partially due to my failure to help with the ganks. But I've also played games with people willing to communicate where we just wrecked the other team. Madman may need rebalancing, but its nothing we can't deal with whilst people fix more important problems.

Snidgel
07-18-2009, 08:36 PM
he's easily CC'd and nuked down until he gets a Shrunken Head, a


oh, there's an item called bkb in dota, you heard of it?

Maybe if you whined less and played more you'd know that shrunken head is the HoN version of BKB.



wards, doesnt work, mobility.
dust, doesnt work, mobility.

Are you serious? If your team doesnt have a single CC then it wasnt madman being imba, then it was you guys picking completely wrong because everyone wanted to be the imba carry. His mobility goes as far as you let it, land one stun and he's down for counting, if he has 4 teammates there you're obviously going to focus him first so he will still drop dead due to his low hp.

It all goes down to if you let him farm uncontested or not. And I've already agreed on barrel roll being a lolskill. Stop making a moron out of youself Darksorrow and realize this game aint diffrent from dota. And in dota you do not let agility hero farm or you'll lose the game most likely. EOD

FuriousPeon
07-18-2009, 09:28 PM
Maybe if you whined less and played more you'd know that shrunken head is the HoN version of BKB.




Are you serious? If your team doesnt have a single CC then it wasnt madman being imba, then it was you guys picking completely wrong because everyone wanted to be the imba carry. His mobility goes as far as you let it, land one stun and he's down for counting, if he has 4 teammates there you're obviously going to focus him first so he will still drop dead due to his low hp.

It all goes down to if you let him farm uncontested or not. And I've already agreed on barrel roll being a lolskill. Stop making a moron out of youself Darksorrow and realize this game aint diffrent from dota. And in dota you do not let agility hero farm or you'll lose the game most likely. EOD


^ This

Tr1cKSt3R
07-18-2009, 09:32 PM
troll was the most overpowered hero when you allow him to farm in dota



Duurrrr?
The solution seems obvious to me.
The only person you have to blame is YOURSELF. Not the hero designer.

K THX BAI.

Oh wait i think you said something else about blink and ww?
Or did you say stun and dust? I can't really remember =/

_Archangel_
07-18-2009, 10:22 PM
Not talking about the imbaness or not of the Madman,

But troll was a strong carry because of his ulti in synergy with his bash, which madman does not have.

Troll doesn't have an escape mechanism that renders you unslowable and invisible that doubles as a chasing nuke, nor does he have a pseudo-Blink escape mechanism that also doubles as an offensive AoE slow and nuke. On top of this Madman has the crit that Juggernaut has in DotA. His strength gain is pretty high also. I am feeling a minor nerf or two is in order, though it's true that you can Dust and stun him.

It's when he gets a BKB that people would start crying.

FuriousPeon
07-18-2009, 10:41 PM
Troll doesn't have an escape mechanism that renders you unslowable and invisible that doubles as a chasing nuke, nor does he have a pseudo-Blink escape mechanism that also doubles as an offensive AoE slow and nuke. On top of this Madman has the crit that Juggernaut has in DotA. His strength gain is pretty high also. I am feeling a minor nerf or two is in order, though it's true that you can Dust and stun him.

It's when he gets a BKB that people would start crying.

Fact of the matter is. Madman has a lowered str gain and a 17 str base start gain. He has alright lane control, but realistically in a match you're not gonna see someone pick madman to carry.. .Why? Because Madman requires a babysit and 4 of the other teammates are support. In a lane with a better carry, Madman would be crushed. Pestilences instant stun beats Madmans slow. Pestilence reveals Madman's invisibility. Pestilence has more str gain and more starting str overall. Pestilence is good. Madman is not.

Swiftblade it's the same case. Madman slows, Swiftblade spins and the support hero can do nothing to stop the magic immunity as the other babysit in swift's lane freezes madman and probably has wards up (Usually Glacius will be in this lane and Glacius ALWAYS buys wards.) With Swiftblades ult fixed, this renders Madman even less useful.

Zephyr has tornadoes that can farm AND heal him, can outfarm the lane, has a blink, great hp gain. While this hero isn't idealistically a good carry for obvious reasons: he's can still beat madman in a lane.


The moral of this story: If you're getting beat by invisibility+Slow You're bad.

darksorrow
07-18-2009, 10:49 PM
focusing madman means wasting every possible stun to be used on him. What's his teammate going to do? sit there and dps you and disable you for free?

1 stun is not enough, 40% ms, goodbye, dust or not? i dont really care.

NO ONE should ever have blink and windwalk on the same hero, that means moving across half of the map in a matter of seconds.

I think my 7 years of dota experience can tell me when a hero is imbalanced.

(btw blade fury does not have immunity to magic, at least not the aoe ones. so veno can easily slow a blade fury juggernaut in this version. LOL?)

Ryno2112
07-18-2009, 11:03 PM
I think madman deserves a nerf or too. the reality of the situation is disable counters any and every hero so using that as a way to counter him is just redundant and stupid. I've played madman many times and it is really easy to farm and kill it really is. let's brake down his skills

Stalk: This skill allows him to get +500% MS, does AoE damage to those he walks by, and renders him invisible. all in all it's weaver's invis. The problem with using dust and wards to coutner is how fast he's moving and how small he is. Even if you do get a stun off, he's blinking away immediatly after.

Barrel roll: This is a blink damage and slow. Used with stalk it can be impossible to get away from him, even with a stun or two thanks to the low cool down on this skill and stalk.

Gash: 36% to do double damage every hit at max level, double damage no matter the level it's the percentage that goes up. it's a good skill on the whole, however, add it to beserk, madman's starting attack speed, and the fact that it gets really hard to get away form him and the syngery is really up there.

Beserk: his bread and butter skill imo, though tbh all of his skills are good. With this not only does he get 80% attack speed but he gets something like 40% movement speed, making him still even ahrder to get away from and survive. pair the attack speed with his crit chance and you have to be rpetty unlucky not to see a bunch of red numbers floating around.

if you did give him a basher he could easily stun lock and if you did somehow get away from stun he has a slow and 500% ms increase invis AoE damage. if you're mad man you're getting abyssal skull, everythign about it mkes him mroe formidable. B-fly makes him invisible to physical heroes, getting hood or BKB and nukers can't touch you either.

What it really comes down to is this: if madman gets BKB you can't get awayf rom him, period. You can't stun him, you and only run, and he's faster with a slow.

is he astral trekker imba? no, but at the moment he needs to be fine tuned and tweaked. The biggest reason is because his escape skills double as chasing skills. I say instead of the blink, give him BH's ult as a normal skill. would up his speed and give him more money. Fitting him perfect still but not making him impossible to get away from as soon as he gets BKB.

Argue all you want that BKB only lasts so many seconds, but the reality is if you're in the same screen as he is when he activates, you're gunna die unless you're whole team is there.


TL;DR here are his skills, biggest problem is escapeing skills are also gangking skills, here's a suggestion for a change, BKB is really good on him.

fulgorestyle
07-18-2009, 11:24 PM
I think madman deserves a nerf or too. the reality of the situation is disable counters any and every hero so using that as a way to counter him is just redundant and stupid. I've played madman many times and it is really easy to farm and kill it really is. let's brake down his skills

Stalk: This skill allows him to get +500% MS, does AoE damage to those he walks by, and renders him invisible. all in all it's weaver's invis. The problem with using dust and wards to coutner is how fast he's moving and how small he is. Even if you do get a stun off, he's blinking away immediatly after.

Barrel roll: This is a blink damage and slow. Used with stalk it can be impossible to get away from him, even with a stun or two thanks to the low cool down on this skill and stalk.

Gash: 36% to do double damage every hit at max level, double damage no matter the level it's the percentage that goes up. it's a good skill on the whole, however, add it to beserk, madman's starting attack speed, and the fact that it gets really hard to get away form him and the syngery is really up there.

Beserk: his bread and butter skill imo, though tbh all of his skills are good. With this not only does he get 80% attack speed but he gets something like 40% movement speed, making him still even ahrder to get away from and survive. pair the attack speed with his crit chance and you have to be rpetty unlucky not to see a bunch of red numbers floating around.

if you did give him a basher he could easily stun lock and if you did somehow get away from stun he has a slow and 500% ms increase invis AoE damage. if you're mad man you're getting abyssal skull, everythign about it mkes him mroe formidable. B-fly makes him invisible to physical heroes, getting hood or BKB and nukers can't touch you either.

What it really comes down to is this: if madman gets BKB you can't get awayf rom him, period. You can't stun him, you and only run, and he's faster with a slow.

is he astral trekker imba? no, but at the moment he needs to be fine tuned and tweaked. The biggest reason is because his escape skills double as chasing skills. I say instead of the blink, give him BH's ult as a normal skill. would up his speed and give him more money. Fitting him perfect still but not making him impossible to get away from as soon as he gets BKB.

Argue all you want that BKB only lasts so many seconds, but the reality is if you're in the same screen as he is when he activates, you're gunna die unless you're whole team is there.


TL;DR here are his skills, biggest problem is escapeing skills are also gangking skills, here's a suggestion for a change, BKB is really good on him.


/thread

Enoda
07-19-2009, 12:26 AM
Ok, he's hard to gank. But I really don't think he's all that imba.

Imba is what chronos is. He ALSO has a blink/slow, and a bash and evasion, and an aoe freeze. But no one complains about him.

madman is pretty fragile I think, gets hit with a couple aoes and he's already low on health, and when he comes out, it only takes a single nuke to take him out.

DustyScythe
07-19-2009, 12:32 AM
Ok, he's hard to gank. But I really don't think he's all that imba.

Imba is what chronos is. He ALSO has a blink/slow, and a bash and evasion, and an aoe freeze. But no one complains about him.

madman is pretty fragile I think, gets hit with a couple aoes and he's already low on health, and when he comes out, it only takes a single nuke to take him out.

Chronos has paper hp, and relatively poor str gain. He also has no reliable way of escaping, like Madman, who has some ****ing ridiculous max ms thing while Chronos just pops away 1000 range or so, still gankable. He needs attack speed to be useful. His AOE stop is difficult to use, as you don't wanna trap the ranged allies. If a Chronos is ganked a lot (which he probably is), he's ****ed, while Madman still contributes slightly more with his little AOE damage.

pnda__
07-19-2009, 12:34 AM
Madman over is overpowered hands down no point in playing a game against him like Darksorrow said he is ungankable. You can't even get a stun on him with a full team of stunners. He's retarded good. I have yet to play a game where he has not dominated either my team or the opposing team. Someone needs to bring out the old nerf bat or ban hammer.

darksorrow
07-19-2009, 12:36 AM
madman has +2.5 str gain. he's in no way fragile. 95% agi heroes in dota doesn't have a 2.5 str gain. most of them have less than 2.0

chronos is a dota clone, nothing's wrong with him.

imba is when a 5-man team ganks him with dust and single target stuns and still cannot catch him(all stuns landed).

We can argue here all we want, but when you see him get dramatically nerfed in the future, you'll know who's right.

jfsportz
07-19-2009, 12:52 AM
He might be a little easier to play against if his cooldowns were a tad higher. His ww is two seconds on/off so it's a little hard to chase him down once he gets going.

darksorrow
07-19-2009, 01:10 AM
He might be a little easier to play against if his cooldowns were a tad higher. His ww is two seconds on/off so it's a little hard to chase him down once he gets going.


and barrel roll will fit perfect in between that cooldown.


"oh look theres 5 guys coming for me, oh what's that? dust? ok, so i'll just bkb then roll past all of you then run away with my pro 40% movement bonus."

FiNGERS
07-19-2009, 01:26 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Blademail owns Madman.

Ryno2112
07-19-2009, 01:34 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Blademail owns Madman.

not gunna bother countering your point, what i am gunna sya is you don't know what you're talking about.

darksorrow
07-19-2009, 01:38 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Blademail owns Madman.

windwalk away, 4 seconds later, barrel roll back. see you at fountain.

inew
07-19-2009, 03:13 AM
windwalk away, 4 seconds later, barrel roll back. see you at fountain.

what he said

Supremacy
07-19-2009, 03:26 AM
Madman has low hp and a god awful mana pool.

Mugenrider
07-19-2009, 03:44 AM
focusing madman means wasting every possible stun to be used on him. What's his teammate going to do? sit there and dps you and disable you for free?

1 stun is not enough, 40% ms, goodbye, dust or not? i dont really care.

NO ONE should ever have blink and windwalk on the same hero, that means moving across half of the map in a matter of seconds.

I think my 7 years of dota experience can tell me when a hero is imbalanced.

(btw blade fury does not have immunity to magic, at least not the aoe ones. so veno can easily slow a blade fury juggernaut in this version. LOL?)

Blink? Windwalk?! OMFG Night hound! He can blink and he can be invisible for the cost of no mana?! IMBA!

sexxyback
07-19-2009, 03:49 AM
Feels like the omg nerf wtf rage comments is when someone good plays againts badds getting fed, you make it seem like he can ww/barrelroll/ulti to infinity, he's got a shitty manapool.

Botzu
07-19-2009, 03:49 AM
Does anyone really go blademail to try and counter madman? Its not like he can't just follow you until the blademail skill is over. The item is 2700 gold and could be much better spent on other items, it provides lackluster stats and is completely countered by people not being retards. Probably the same reason some people think the avernas equivalent is overpowered because they just don't stop attacking him when his ult is up.

Ryno2112
07-19-2009, 05:53 AM
I don't qq about new heroes, you look at the dota forums and you'll see I'm under the same name never qqing about new or old heroes.

I'm not qqing about this hero either, just it seems very apparent that he isn't done yet.

the 4-5 people in this thread saying he isn't op you need to remember that the game is still in beta and by not being honest about this so you can continue your easy gaming and getting better kd ratios, you're hurting the game itself. The fact of the matter is if Madman isn't altered they'll hit release and he'll be in every game, and then you have angry customers wondering why he wasn't nerfed in beta testing.

it's our job to report t higns like this. As I see it the majority agrees that madman needs to be worked on, stop arguing that he doesn't, it's doing no one any good.


however, I think the Devs get the point by now and they are probably doing SOMETHING about this. IMO nothing else needs to be discussed. The hero isn't done, the devs will fix him, no need to continue qqing about him.

dejvid
07-19-2009, 09:50 AM
i wonder how you people stun? i guess you throw everything at once and get like 4 second stun, instead of 15? no wonder he gets away. he has 10 seconds (if i remember correct) spell block with shrunken skull, if he does not have it he is stunned. also, if you're facing WW heroes you're supposed to buy some invisibility detection right? not to mention he dies in a matter of moments against AOE spells and massive spell fights.

crit it also kinda useless if you don't have the items to support it. so madman basically needs skull for his ult to get useful and some dmg items. which requires some pre-farming. if he goes for skull he doesnt have dmg items, if he goes for dmg, there is no spell immunity. and if he manages to farm both (or more), how did he manage it? and your team? you have no items or what?

srsly, i wonder how you play your games.

zen2
07-19-2009, 10:40 AM
500% movespeed windwalk?

you have got to be kidding

darksorrow
07-19-2009, 10:45 AM
i wonder how you people stun? i guess you throw everything at once and get like 4 second stun, instead of 15? no wonder he gets away. he has 10 seconds (if i remember correct) spell block with shrunken skull, if he does not have it he is stunned. also, if you're facing WW heroes you're supposed to buy some invisibility detection right? not to mention he dies in a matter of moments against AOE spells and massive spell fights.

crit it also kinda useless if you don't have the items to support it. so madman basically needs skull for his ult to get useful and some dmg items. which requires some pre-farming. if he goes for skull he doesnt have dmg items, if he goes for dmg, there is no spell immunity. and if he manages to farm both (or more), how did he manage it? and your team? you have no items or what?

srsly, i wonder how you play your games.


I'm assuming all players with equal skill levels, apparently you are nothing thinking of what i'm thinking.

go watch some of the competitive dota replays and you'll know what i'm talking about when i say a carry hero. you assume his 4 teammates are never there when the 5 of the other team ganks madman. madman is definitely not the hero that you should be wasting all your stuns on, and not everyone has a stun.

Tensa1
07-19-2009, 03:56 PM
Can someone do me a favor?

Can someone post what Madman's int growth, or more importantly his natural mana pool per level?

Because it seems like everyone is assuming the guy has the mana to always use stalk and barrel 5 times to travel across the map, gank, escape, and travel back. From every time I've used him, sure i'll save a bit of mana for an escaping stalk, but really, he NEVER has enough to do the kinds of things you people are complaining about.

I do agree he needs to be reworked. Maybe giving his attack a passive slow like Naix used to have or maybe Veno instead of barrel, and nerfing his crit.

And as to whoever said that straight from DotA heros are balanced should look into how 'orbs' stack now. Anti-Mage can now utilize a Satanic, Skadi, and Mjol... at the same time... Of course the new heros need tweaking but that doesn't mean we should ignore the 'old' ones.

FuriousPeon
07-19-2009, 06:29 PM
Someone in this thread explain to me how madman is so good if he NEVER does **** to me or my friends

TravCarp
07-19-2009, 06:37 PM
Nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf

accordion
07-19-2009, 06:37 PM
Someone in this thread explain to me how madman is so good if he NEVER does **** to me or my friends
Probably because you pubstomp?

Madman with an Omni is probably the most ridiculous combo in this game. Arcane Ring + Repel spam and there is nothing the opposing team can do except roll over.

Madman would be perfectly balanced if he did not have so many escapes. I'd suggest lowering the speed boost and increasing the cooldown on his Stalk, that's all he needs.

BluRB
07-20-2009, 03:31 AM
Probably because you pubstomp?

Madman with an Omni is probably the most ridiculous combo in this game. Arcane Ring + Repel spam and there is nothing the opposing team can do except roll over.

Madman would be perfectly balanced if he did not have so many escapes. I'd suggest lowering the speed boost and increasing the cooldown on his Stalk, that's all he needs.

"Ensure someone on your team has a stun. Madman is a carrier, stop him from farming and stun/sleep him during fights and it's GG Madman."

Shino
07-20-2009, 04:40 AM
All I have to say is that everyone saying that madman is easy to own, with all your wonderful stuns are very silly.

MadMan wont run around ganking 5 heroes by himself. Why would he is he retarded? He wont take unneccesary chances. Also in a team battle how can you afford to stun one hero into oblivion while the other 4 are free to squash you?

Theory craft is all fun and well but in all actuality you WONT be 5 man ganking all the time. You will be 2v2'd by madman and friend every now and then. You will lose that fight. The guy has 2 escape mechanisms. He wont be killed easily. This is a team game. If you imagine yourselves all gunning for madman while the rest of his team runs in horror then you obviously dont play srs games versus srs people.

Madman is currently probably the strongest dps hero in the game. I agree that SwiftBlade and Scout achieve better results in team fights, but 1v1 madman will out carry anycarry here.

EDIT: For the record nothing beats the Tree and Dark Lady combo ulti. Not even madman. Rooted and blind is >>

GoGo_Boy
07-20-2009, 05:32 AM
Just by the time you think scout is annoying you have to fight madman...
I cannot believe he got suckuchi (or however the **** it is spelled) + a kind of waveform that deals a little less damage but therefore slows a lot.
You cannot give a hero two superb chasing + escaping skills that both deal okay damage.
Killing Weaver was already a hard thing in DotA... now if I imagine she had a blink... *rofl*

Inconmon
07-20-2009, 05:59 AM
You cannot give a hero two superb chasing + escaping skills that both deal okay damage.
Killing Weaver was already a hard thing in DotA... now if I imagine she had a blink... *rofl*

This.
Hero that always gets away unless its a mass disable well coordinated teamgank with at least two anti invis items bought and he didnt see it coming... while you yourself will never escape. And onces he is farmed, its gg anyway.

laserburn
07-20-2009, 08:06 AM
I can't really understand how anyone can say with a straight face that Madman is not OP. With all the powerful skills he has, he should be remade so squishy that he instantly dies if enemy sneezes near him.

I remember one game I used to play before, there was a class called Striker which was able to one-shot everyone except for tanks from huge distance. But no, no Striker would ever admit that their class is OP, because FFS, their armor was more expensive, their skill cooldowns were slightly longer, they didn't have as much dodge as one other completely worthless class, they had to change their launcher stand every 5000 shots, etc. Their best argument was that Striker could be taken out one on one by a mage if mage has the right gear, fully leveled buffs on, spots Striker on time, puts 4 debuffs on him in correct order and then unleashes full DPS and kills him, all that in under 6 seconds it takes Striker to remove the first debuff and kill the mage with just one press of a button. Which noob could possibly say that Striker is OP after reading that, huh?

It is extremely hard to stop a madman, sometimes even impossible if he gets going early on. If he can be stopped only by all five opposing players synchronously jumping up and down on their left foot while brushing their teeth with the left hand and twirling a basketball on top of a index finger of the right hand, than there is no way in hell anyone can say that MM is not OP. He needs to be thrown down a nerf tree so that he hits every branch on his way to the ground.

sexxyback
07-20-2009, 09:27 AM
The first rule about madman is, you dont talk about madman.

Shino
07-20-2009, 10:10 AM
It is extremely hard to stop a madman, sometimes even impossible if he gets going early on. If he can be stopped only by all five opposing players synchronously jumping up and down on their left foot while brushing their teeth with the left hand and twirling a basketball on top of a index finger of the right hand, than there is no way in hell anyone can say that MM is not OP. He needs to be thrown down a nerf tree so that he hits every branch on his way to the ground.

ROFL, exactly. Everyone here that said he isnt OP and that he can be killed by a team of stunners is saying exactly that. He isnt OP if you have the perfect team counter to him and all get your stuns off on him. Also he doesn't have a Shrunken Head in said scenario. Also he is being manned by a moron that 1v5's teams with stuns! The rest of his team are watching from the woods at this point!

DeviousAlpha
07-20-2009, 10:14 AM
Not talking about the imbaness or not of the Madman,

But troll was a strong carry because of his ulti in synergy with his bash, which madman does not have.

A basher is not expensive.

DeviousAlpha
07-20-2009, 10:19 AM
Can someone do me a favor?

Can someone post what Madman's int growth, or more importantly his natural mana pool per level?

Because it seems like everyone is assuming the guy has the mana to always use stalk and barrel 5 times to travel across the map, gank, escape, and travel back. From every time I've used him, sure i'll save a bit of mana for an escaping stalk, but really, he NEVER has enough to do the kinds of things you people are complaining about.

I do agree he needs to be reworked. Maybe giving his attack a passive slow like Naix used to have or maybe Veno instead of barrel, and nerfing his crit.

And as to whoever said that straight from DotA heros are balanced should look into how 'orbs' stack now. Anti-Mage can now utilize a Satanic, Skadi, and Mjol... at the same time... Of course the new heros need tweaking but that doesn't mean we should ignore the 'old' ones.

I have played madman myself. Solo mid, dominating anything from Torturer to Soulstealer. All you need is a bottle, and all of your mana troubles are solved. Follow up with battlefury, basher. And it's G-F'in-G.

endiku
07-20-2009, 11:52 AM
New to both HoN and dota but it doesn't take an expert to know that when you see a hero used in every single match that can single handedly kill 4 opponents and that always climbs the charts in practically every game that he has to be imba. It's a little obvious to anyone.

Scowndrul
07-20-2009, 03:34 PM
Way too many escape/chase mechanisms on the Madman. One has to go, and I vote invis.

xahxah
07-20-2009, 03:58 PM
Madman is only imbalanced when you pair him up with the right heroes so he doesn't get rocked. In pub play he's easy to counter. In competitive play when you lane him with a Jester then he becomes a serious problem.




However, nerfing Madman will only make another carry come to life as the OP hero (*cough* Predator *cough*). Nerfing Madman's str gain will make him easy to kill really.

Excalibur
07-20-2009, 03:59 PM
The first rule about madman is, you dont talk about madman.
Just got a new sig quote.

So far, I think Madman, Predator, and Thunderbringer all need a little nerf. Not big, because they aren't grossly OP, but still OP.

dejvid
07-20-2009, 05:48 PM
i don't know. i've played two games with madman and owned eventually, played two with madman where he sucked hard. so i'd still say, he ain't overpowered.

R1C3
07-20-2009, 05:59 PM
i pwned madman late game with devourer. we were both fed/stacked

Snidgel
07-20-2009, 10:25 PM
i pwned madman late game with devourer. we were both fed/stacked

Ahh, then this whole issue is solved. Thanks for your contribution R1C3. Never knew there was such an easy explanation to this whole thread! A job well done

Keldosh
07-20-2009, 10:36 PM
Ahh, then this whole issue is solved. Thanks for your contribution R1C3. Never knew there was such an easy explanation to this whole thread! A job well done

No need to be rude. He is contributing information, albeit near (I did say near, not completely) useless info.

I have revisited my earlier thoughts on Madman and I do think he needs some nerfing sooner rather than later. He really does have too many escape abilities compared to other heroes in the same class. The question then becomes, should we be calling for a nerf now? Or should we wait and see what kind of other heroes S2 is adding?

FallenRazor
07-20-2009, 10:45 PM
Madman is really vary imbalanced, I agree that this hero should suffer some changes ASAP

Rippsy
07-21-2009, 05:24 AM
As in another thread the issues with madman have been summerised as so:

He's too slippery (there is no way to stop him farming neutrals mid/late game since you can not reliabilty catch him)
His ulti early game lacks punch, but late game is like he's on steriods and crack.

The combination of these two make him weak early, then he disappears for 20 minutes comes back and eats your entire teams face.

gregnog
07-21-2009, 05:34 AM
there has never been a more unbalanced character in any dota version. the WW also gives you max speed which most these posts arnt mentioning... and doing damage as well.

you need to take away his ww or his ult, you cant have both thats just plain wrong.

Rippsy
07-21-2009, 05:35 AM
lovethefgt; the windwalk itself is not a problem, its im combination with other things which make it so powerful.

Weaver had the same windwalk, and yes he was hard to catch and kill but it wasn't impossible.

gregnog
07-21-2009, 05:40 AM
thats exactly what im saying, if you took out one of those 2 skills youd have a somewhat unique hero that wasnt completely overpowered.

taking away his ult would hamper his impossible to beat DPS late game, or taking out his WW would make him much easier to kill and much less likely to chase you all the way down to your base or get multi kills etc.

GuldPungen
07-21-2009, 05:43 AM
lol on this thread whine whine whine, l2p support against madman.
i have played madman many times and there is many noobs out there playing u can easily get fed and then u own.
but he got shitlow mana pool and u have to go home often to refill and go gank, u cant go into 5 people and just think u can own them with invis/barrel bks u got low hp and they will nuke u really fast down. those who whine on him either suck at playing or doesnt know how to buy disable items /wards.
over and out.

gregnog
07-21-2009, 05:53 AM
wards mean nothing to madman dude. he runs at max speed while ww'ed. half a second hes out of the range. thats alot of wasted money that will probably only kill him 1/10 times. and thats IF you can actually beat him. and late game you cant beat him even 2/3v1 usually

Nickopoliss
07-21-2009, 05:59 AM
So heres the skinny on madman. you need a near perfect team to beat him. also half the stuns and spells in the game completely avoiding invis or phased heroes. Enter madman....invis every 2 seconds pretty much until you've ran yourself out of mana. Enter non retarded axe? OH you're bkb is up? taunt? i love how i dont see nearly as many complaints about torturer? oh look my chains just hit u and i cant even see you thats fair whats that? 1000 aoe range?! nowai...i have played both of these heroes numerous times and i dominate each game with either. the problem with madman is that most of the people playing this game are absolute garbage players who have helmets bibs and drool all over the place. if anything madmans 2.5 str per level needs to be brought down to 1.7 unless they are changing him into ursa. Keep in mind the game has TONS of issues right now and thats why you're getting trolled.

gregnog
07-21-2009, 05:59 AM
biggest problem is escapeing skills are also gangking skills

didnt catch this before

this is basically the problem.

tayuku
07-21-2009, 06:51 AM
I believe what makes Madman utterly ridiculous is having Critical with Troll's Old ult. What this does is make his damage increase exponentially as the game goes on. Madman can be ganked and killed early on. However, this does absolutely nothing to hinder his ability to carry. Even when losing, he can outdamage the other team's carry with much fewer items. Madman's skill set allows him to carry lategame with just a Runed Axe and some lifesteal. The Ult and the critical increases his damage at a rate much higher than any other hero in the game. His skills have too much synergy. By having so much damage with Crit + Ult, many people would counter by saying that he has no disables. However, with his short cooldown max movement speed and Waveform-like slow, there is no way that you can get away before he kills you.

Right now there is absolutely nothing that you can do to stop his insane mid-to-lategame DPS. No other carry except for maybe Pestilence (Slarder Port) can beat him late game, due to him having bash and armor reduction/sight.

gregnog
07-21-2009, 07:47 AM
just had 3 out of my last 4 games ruined by madman. even when you destroy him the first 20 minutes he always comes back and starts genociding your team. fun stuff.

Terranova1
07-21-2009, 07:48 AM
Those acting like pro and saying people getting owned by madman are nabs lack some inteligence or are just ignorant. Let me state why.

- Hes countered by items? Ofc he is, but setting up your build should be based on what heroes enemy team has, not ONE hero.

- Madman is weak at start? Ofc he is, but "then he disappears for 20 minutes comes back and eats your entire teams face"

- He lacks mana? Hey, how about buying mana pots? Yes? Omg, problem solved. Besides, pointing that out is just funny since a LOT of heroes have small mana pools.

- You can gank him, you say? Perfect, either your entire team focuses on him and MAYBE kills the bastard while hes friends are making sure you are dead, or ignores him and then hes friends don't need to check anything.

Secondly, stun/disable him is most likely possible ONLY in early game. Madman with BKB and phase boots (since most stuns just ignore phased heroes), guess what? See ya at fountain.

- Wards? "he runs hella fast. half a second hes out of the range". Maybe not half of second, but for sure faster than your stun.

I'm sure I've missed something, but what I mentioned is really enough.

Little TIP : This game is about team vs team, not team vs madman.

CavemanDiary
07-21-2009, 01:25 PM
Madman is imba theres no question about it. Give more cooldown to his two escape skills.

rafaw
07-21-2009, 02:26 PM
change some of his skills would be nice like his ult or ww.

xahxah
07-21-2009, 03:15 PM
Those acting like pro and saying people getting owned by madman are nabs lack some inteligence or are just ignorant. Let me state why.

- Hes countered by items? Ofc he is, but setting up your build should be based on what heroes enemy team has, not ONE hero.

- Madman is weak at start? Ofc he is, but "then he disappears for 20 minutes comes back and eats your entire teams face"

- He lacks mana? Hey, how about buying mana pots? Yes? Omg, problem solved. Besides, pointing that out is just funny since a LOT of heroes have small mana pools.

- You can gank him, you say? Perfect, either your entire team focuses on him and MAYBE kills the bastard while hes friends are making sure you are dead, or ignores him and then hes friends don't need to check anything.

Secondly, stun/disable him is most likely possible ONLY in early game. Madman with BKB and phase boots (since most stuns just ignore phased heroes), guess what? See ya at fountain.

- Wards? "he runs hella fast. half a second hes out of the range". Maybe not half of second, but for sure faster than your stun.

I'm sure I've missed something, but what I mentioned is really enough.

Little TIP : This game is about team vs team, not team vs madman.




There are many heroes that can beat Madman late game. Void is one of them. The problem of course however, is that Madman actually has HP unlike most agility carry heroes. Knock down the HP and he gets totally raped no matter what happens really.


Second, it's quite obvious the majority of the people here have no idea why Madman is even considered overpowered. There's quite a difference from OP and imbalanced. Imbalance means that Madman is so totally ridiculous that there is nothing that can stop him. That is the equivalent of Dota's TC currently. However, Madman is not that good.



The reasons why Madman has an advantage over most heroes is :

1. He has double nukes essentially that double as escape skills.
2. He has high DPS naturally due to critical strike and his ultimate
3. He can chase/gank/etc. better than any hero short of Scout
4. He has high str growth, which makes him very difficult to kill late game as he has nearly 2k HP with a Shrunken Head.



Because of this, a smart player (important part here) can abuse these advantages and farm while never dying essentially. He also can contribute to team fights with his double AoE nukes and essentially never die if he's not dumb or does not do anything risky. He is slightly overpowered, but by no means is he so imbalanced that he warrents a massive nerf stick that most people are asking for.


It still takes a good player to fully utilize Madman. You can't be a total idiot and just go and 1 v 5 teams. You still have to be pretty damn good to abuse him.

Terranova1
07-21-2009, 03:50 PM
It still takes a good player to fully utilize Madman. You can't be a total idiot and just go and 1 v 5 teams. You still have to be pretty damn good to abuse him.

Well, stupid or not experienced player won't be able to make a proper use even out of nuke if given. You first need to know what you're doing, and thats quite obvious, but it seems that majority of people playing madman KNOW when and what they need to do. It's not that hard to figure out.

Botzu
07-21-2009, 03:57 PM
He is really fairly easy to play. Nothing hard about a morph attack that slows and a skill that gives max movespeed.

xahxah
07-21-2009, 05:49 PM
He is really fairly easy to play. Nothing hard about a morph attack that slows and a skill that gives max movespeed.


In competitive play is easy especially when you lane him with a stunner. However, in pub play, it's not like you can be Mr. 1 v 5 with him unless you are at least pretty good.

Terranova1
07-24-2009, 12:23 PM
it's not like you can be Mr. 1 v 5 with him unless you are at least pretty good.

It's not about 1v5, its about 2/3v5 when you CAN'T do a sh** becouse of madman. Well, you can but either way you will die or lose tower/baracks while not being able to kill him. After 4 or 5 games quite ruined by this hero im hosting "no madman" games till he gets hes nerf.

fishmael
07-24-2009, 02:35 PM
they should just cut his STR gain per level in half

BinAly
07-24-2009, 03:15 PM
I agree, too much Hit-Points seem to be the source of the problem. I wouldn't have anything against all his escape skills if I could actually kill him when he doesn't use them right.