TwitchTV Challenge hosted by Beyond Gaming Feedback on Rules.

[BeyondTony]

We appreciate all of the participants in the Twitch.TV Challenge. There has been alot of confusion regarding the rule on participants, roster and team. We would like to reach out to the HoN Community to let them voice their opinion in how to make this tournament even better. We want to do better and want to know how you would like rules modified to make enhancements to this Tournament. Please voice your opinion below and keep it on topic. Again, we want to improve so flaming us or anyone is not helpful.

Here is a link to the rules incase you have yet to read them: http://www.beyondgaming.com/page/twitchtvhon/rules

Beyond Gaming, S2 Games and HoNCast will be gathered together on the HonCast tomorrow at 12:30 PST to discuss and resolve any issues. In the meantime, let your voice be heard and help us make the rest of this event amazing.

On behalf of Beyond Gaming, TwitchTV and S2 Games we appreciate the support and look forward to improving your competition needs.
-------------------
EDIT
Tournament rules have been updated and we have provided tools for the Team Leader to designate players as Substitutes. Each team may designate (2) subs for the Tournament from here on out.

[kippetje]

Do not seed the best teams in one spot, it is ok if the lesser teams qualify but stuff like this shouldn't happen to much. Also, make it possible to have more then 5 for the qualifier. You should be able to use a substitute (ie. the 6th OF YOUR TEAM) if one person cannot be there all night due to whatever reason (personal, technical etc.).

Those are the 2 issues I would say are the biggest.

[BeyondTony]

Thanks for the feedback, having 1 substitute is something we are definitely considering. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

[RebeccaBlak]

I would even go maybe a little beyond 6 and make it 7 or 8 allowed as long as someone is only able to be on one roster.

[Abnecide]

Do not seed the best teams in one spot, it is ok if the lesser teams qualify but stuff like this shouldn't happen to much. Also, make it possible to have more then 5 for the qualifier. You should be able to use a substitute (ie. the 6th OF YOUR TEAM) if one person cannot be there all night due to whatever reason (personal, technical etc.).

Those are the 2 issues I would say are the biggest.

He pretty much nailed what needs to be done. I think a 6-7 man Roster is appropriate as long as it cannot be changed throughout the tournament.

[BeyondTony]

Thank Rebecca and Abnecide, we just need to ensure that ringers are not finding their way onto several team rosters. This would be detrimental to the integrity of the tournament.

[PiIIOWS]

>>>>>>

[BeyondTony]

PiIIOWS, we understand your frustration and are attempting to listen to you and the entire HoN community. Your continued flaming is helping nobody, we even went out of our way to let you modify your roster less than 10 minutes before the start of the tournament today. You are complaining about a FREE Tournament with great prize money on the line. This is our first opportunity to engage the HoN players and we want positive feedback or constructive criticism. Your attitude does not help the situation.

[GATTUSO`]

PiIIOWS, we understand your frustration and are attempting to listen to you and the entire HoN community. Your continued flaming is helping nobody, we even went out of our way to let you modify your roster less than 10 minutes before the start of the tournament today. You are complaining about a FREE Tournament with great prize money on the line. This is our first opportunity to engage the HoN players and we want positive feedback or constructive criticism. Your attitude does not help the situation.
its pillows, he's playing for the worst team on the scene and he's the worst player in the team dont bother yourselves with him

[AnimalPiano]

Ringers aren't substitutes. Until an admin can learn the difference your tournament will still suck.

Expecting the exact 5 people to be able to play back to back days as early as 9am is just silly, having 7-8 man rosters is not unreasonable, most tournaments have this in fact.

[BeyondTony]

We understand the difference iLoveJenna and are considering adding available spots on the active Team Rosters to play in the competition.

[PiIIOWS]

>>>>>>

[AnimalPiano]

We understand the difference iLoveJenna and are considering adding available spots on the active Team Rosters to play in the competition.

Then why was it not done after the FIRST time it messed things up, much less even before that.

Subs are commonplace in every team sport I can think of, as well as e-sport. How you guys overlooked that not once, but twice, is just mind-blowing.

Not only did you make it so teams couldn't have subs, you made it so the captain cannot choose who plays before the competition. So if say.. someone has some difficulties and falls out of touch for a day or two, there's no way to get him off the roster and another player on, who can play.

Also I asked an admin to switch players on ours a full 48 hours before the tournament started, as one of our players was busy this weekend, nothing was done, not even a response from an admin.

I mean, I realize you guys are new to this, but a lot of it is just common sense...

Edit: Home-team should not have absolute server choice either. If an Australian team plays a Euro team before the BO3s home-team will basically decide the game. The same holds true to USW vs EU to a smaller degree.

[Athildur]

Server choice should generally be decided based on policy of fair pings. Even in a bo3 with alternating servers, in some cases giving one team two home server advantages can drastically affect a game. Sure, this is mainly for the teams where bigger ping differences between home servers are apparent, but it should still be reconsidered.

That said, server selection is *always* a big issue and there's never an event where it doesn't get disputed or disrupted by a team one way or another. It's best to prepare all admins for that to stick to the rules and common decency to determine what servers are acceptable.

--

Rule 4.6 needs some serious reconsideration.

Only allowing five people on a roster at any given time is a practical impossibility (I know this from experience). Stand-ins and such are extra people that are registered to a team so the team may play at the given times. In any tournament that spans more than a few (3-4) hours or multiple days, it is advisable to allow some stand-ins to allow teams to play their matches.

The reason people are against 'ringers' is because ringers are unauthorised. People who play for a team who are not actually on the roster. And that, of course, is the point.

--

7.1-7.2

It's highly inadvisable to force teams to pause for 15 minutes about a dispute. It should never be a problem to let them play and submit the match ID for consideration later. This may cause a little extra work for your admins, but that should never be a primary reason for the rules.

--

7.4 and 7.5 seem to be conflicting. You can pause once for 10 mins, and the enemy can't unpause. But after 20 mins they can insist the game continue without the player? If you can only pause once for 10 mins without an unpause, wouldn't it mean it's only about 15 minutes?

--

7.7 is a bit redundant since you already have 4.6

--

8 - all rules under 8 are labeled 7.*

--

4.2 and 8.2 are similarly redundant. Punishment for breaking any rule should be possible disqualification. Although it may be a decent point to emphasize so I guess it's not all bad.


---

I have also heard that there were issues with seeding. While I can understand it is easier to completely randomize seeds, it is detrimental to the final results of a tournament, as it can cause lower skilled teams to be qualified en masse by unfortunate seeding of top teams.

It's advisable to give admins or organizers some time to decide on a reasonable seeding structure by rating individual teams as much as possible. It does not need to be exact, but a rough estimate on what are the better teams is generally preferable to completely random seeding.


I sincerely hope any outstanding issues can be resolved so the rest of the event is succesful. As tournament organisers, we should always strive to provide the best possible service to teams and players and uphold a general standard as high as we can possible set it. Good luck.

[SFCLUB]

I know a lot of people are mad about the seeding / bracket placements. I don't want OK v MSI in the first bo1 elimination round personally, I'd like to see an exciting finals.

[Kolapz]

Was about to send a complaint e-mail. Glad to see that you're looking for feedback.

However, feedback or at least general understanding of how tournaments have been organized in the past BEFORE you start your own tournament would have been better, especially considering you're entering a new market and may drive people away from participating in them by reaching bad decisions.

Randomized seeding should absolutely be out of the question. It has never worked in any sport or eSport in the history of ever. At least go through the effort of seeding 8 teams in a 256 team bracket.

Ringers and substitutes are not the same thing. Learn the difference. Especially frustrating was the fact that once you signed up for the tournament you could not change your roster. I had players that told me 3 days in advance they couldn't show up for matches, but there was nothing we could do in those 3 days to fix the roster on the website and were thus disqualified from the 2nd qualifier.

Tell your admins to get some common sense. If a player is registered for the team, both on the website and in-game, but isn't on the roster due to a failure within YOUR WEBSITE - don't freaking disqualify them. It's completely nonsensical.

Athildur nailed it on the rules etc.

Also, please don't pull this card:

You are complaining about a FREE Tournament with great prize money on the line.

If anyone, the HoN community heard enough of that excuse.

[Sneyking]

Please seed teams in some fashion and do not put every powerhouse team on the same bracket.

Also your website can use some improvements, as it does not load over half the times.
Oh and also you guys can for sure improve on some of the rules Athildur said. Thats pretty much it!

[Powzilla]

vrs powerhouse from now on
good night

[BeyondTony]

Thanks Kolapz and Athildur, we want to make right on all aspects. We are taking all of this feedback in and will have an announcement early next week with an updated ruleset. In regards to research we have run a lot of Tournaments but this is the first HoN event we have done and was reliant on S2 to help establish the general rules. There was a bit of mis-communication on the ruleset and overall they could have been better. We realize that and will be making modifications.

In regards to the website, you are able to modify your roster prior to the start date of the event. The captain just needs to "Leave Roster" and then players that cant play can also Leave. We are working on a simpler feature set to allow for easier roster modification prior to the event starting. We are in beta and really want to iterate on the functionality to get it to a point that everyone likes it.

Thanks again and hopefully you all return for the 3rd Qualifier next week.

[FatChocobo]

The main thing for me would be the roster issue, only allowing 5 people (and not explicitly stating this in the rules) is kind of ridiculous, especially when the games are on set times/dates.

Can we expect to see changes made for the 3rd/4th Qualifiers, or are you planning to continue as you started?

[JackSparrow`]

Pretty much what athildur said.
Its nice that you put effort in your website and organising the tournament, you just need some experience:)

[Blet`]

Do not seed the best teams in one spot, it is ok if the lesser teams qualify but stuff like this shouldn't happen to much. Also, make it possible to have more then 5 for the qualifier. You should be able to use a substitute (ie. the 6th OF YOUR TEAM) if one person cannot be there all night due to whatever reason (personal, technical etc.).

Those are the 2 issues I would say are the biggest.
having 1 or 2 substitutes shouldnt even be worth considering, it should be there from the start. Also - Try to keep high tier teams from facing off until the later rounds.

[theoutsider]

pillows representing the infused organisation like a boss

[BadaBing]

vrs powerhouse from now on
good night

LOL :doct:

[Machiavelli`]

A tournament master who actually cares about the competitors and the viewers. WOW

[BeyondTony]

We do care and want to know what and how to improve on the user experience for players and viewers. I figured the best way to learn is to ask the community directly and gather feedback.

Its obvious that we have made mistakes but we have also done a lot of good and will continue to do so. Countless times players have gone out of there way to tell us they appreciate the tournament and having support be so responsive. I guess there have been times in other events that an issue doesnt get responded to for days.

I think with the help of the community, we can have something that all levels of players will enjoy.

[Blet`]

We do care and want to know what and how to improve on the user experience for players and viewers. I figured the best way to learn is to ask the community directly and gather feedback.

Its obvious that we have made mistakes but we have also done a lot of good and will continue to do so. Countless times players have gone out of there way to tell us they appreciate the tournament and having support be so responsive. I guess there have been times in other events that an issue doesnt get responded to for days.

I think with the help of the community, we can have something that all levels of players will enjoy.
Even though we got disqualified twice ( one time because of that rooster misunderstanding... no subs etc) the 2:nd time our fault.

I ain't mad cause you at least seem to want to adapt and improve, which is much better than most people out there.

I root for you and hope you can keep improving and host a great tournament.

Tbh I agree with pillows that they getting disq'd the first tourney was stupid though.

[Kzod]

vrs powerhouse from now on
good night
this LOL

[MA121]

typical

someone comes to HoN offering us money and we just sit there and cry because it's not good enough.

god forbid a professional acting team who gets through the random seeding and has all 5 players online at once for every match wins the tournament and gets noticed!


regardless, the rules do suck.. i just find it funny how the hon community treats everything :D

[pindakaas]

Thx for investing time and money in HoN. :)

[mindspank]

We do care and want to know what and how to improve on the user experience for players and viewers. I figured the best way to learn is to ask the community directly and gather feedback.

Its obvious that we have made mistakes but we have also done a lot of good and will continue to do so. Countless times players have gone out of there way to tell us they appreciate the tournament and having support be so responsive. I guess there have been times in other events that an issue doesnt get responded to for days.

I think with the help of the community, we can have something that all levels of players will enjoy.

Very professional dialogue here, really. Looking forward to your tournament even more now seeing there are individuals behind it who actually try to listen to the community and care about it.

[BeyondTony]

I'd like to thank HonCast and the HoN Community for allowing us to communicate openly and really get great information presented. We will be releasing a new ruleset by Tuesday. For certain we will be allowing at least 1 substitute player for each team starting for the 3rd Qualifier.

If teams would like to get some smaller tournaments going let us know and we can show you how to set them up on our site. Its really simple and the results automatically track in real-time so you dont have to administer anything on smaller tournaments.

Any other info or questions/comments please feel free to PM me here or on www.beyondgaming.com (http://www.beyondgaming.com)

[Daxt`]

I think many people can agree on the seeding being a tad odd throughout some of the qualifiers so far.

That aside the "you can only use these specific 5 players on your roster" rule, when most teams have 6+ players is a tad annoying too and I don't see why 30-60 minutes breaks are needed inbetween every round.


Apart from those few mishaps I really enjoyed the qualifier and I'm looking forward to the round robin :)

[Skyzoe]

To long between rounds

Only allowing 5 players to play is complete bullshit, make it at least 7-8

Having the top teams play eachother in the first few rounds is kind of stupid

[Tralfamadore]

vrs powerhouse from now on
good night
Tree isn't op

[PriDeRazer]

You completly ignore south american players, not to mention if we have to play against an european team and server choice is EU (which is already wrong) they also get to host it. We gave up on playing this after this terrible rule. Home team should only select the area of the server, while the other team hosts the game, your rules makes it so the home team can get both server area and the server itself. Not sure if it was fixed, but you must make it so people can play with more people on the roster too, 5 is not enough. Well, thats basically it, but I personally think you guys kinda have to run it smoother aswell (updating games faster, etc, using a forum would be good for this, so people can post game results, and you just gotta open the thread, check game id, and update brackets, making it easier for everyone)...
thats basically it
gl

[Berethorn]

south america doesnt bring competition anyway.

[Starlings]

We would like to reach out to the HoN community.


Bad idea. :dead:

[tkothethrill]

south america doesnt bring competition anyway.
brasil brings many competitions, brasil ultimate slayer of world. good nite kingdom la brasilia

[The_Thrill]

TKOLOL #1

[BeyondTony]

The rules have been updated, thanks everyone for the feedback. The remainder of this tournament, teams will have the opportunity to designate (2) substitute players. Subs just need to join the team and the team leader will have an option on the Team Member page to designate players as a substitute. Subs can only be on 1 Team, any violation of this will result in disqualification of the entire team(s).

[julsn]

our 6th man cant join the roster for the tournament. what are we doing wrong. one of the players already in the roster is marked as a substitute.

[BeyondTony]

That is all you need to do. If you have 5 people on your roster and a 6th marked as a sub you are good to go. Any of those 6 players can participate on your team in the tournament.

[julsn]

so the substitute doesnt have to be on the roster for the tournament?

[BeyondTony]

No, he/she only needs to be on the Team. Substitutes are used to play in place of an active roster member.

[mygeL]

The home and away team thing when it comes to servers makes it pretty random when it comes to who has the advantage. for example when an EU team faces a USW team playing on an USE server makes much more sense (atleast thats what we did when we were playing in the noob bash tournament you guys hosted).
And if that can't be done with other regions facing off atleast let the unfavored team choose the server in that region.
I dunno if that would make unneccesary complications with team failing to agree and whatnot, it's just something I reacted on when i read through the rules =)

[GroNorS]

To be honest the bo1 server rules are just horrible. First u say home team is chosen at random and then that home team chooses the server so if there is a sea vs eu match up it is basicly luck who will win.

[PizdecEbashy]

About servers: make Russia as region. We're not EU, we're not USA.
Most of the tournaments did that.
GRTS 4 (http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/portals.php?show=index&name=heroes-of-newerth-tournament-season-4&tab=8294568)
UNGL (http://ungl.org/p/Rules/Heroes_of_Newerth_Rules)

[AnimalPiano]

The rules have been updated, thanks everyone for the feedback. The remainder of this tournament, teams will have the opportunity to designate (2) substitute players. Subs just need to join the team and the team leader will have an option on the Team Member page to designate players as a substitute. Subs can only be on 1 Team, any violation of this will result in disqualification of the entire team(s).

Nice job. Home team is still a free win.

Aus playing euro servers fair, yes?

You guys are such a complete joke it's incredible.

[BeyondTony]

Server issues are always going to be a problem, you can make the rules on servers many different ways and someone will get beat thus blaming it on server choice. Its part of the game, we can not develop tools to match players based on the best server. This is something out of our control.

I see complaints about the servers but the only recommendation is create all matches on Russia region. Give us feedback on how to make the server rules better.

Jenna, I'd love to hear how you would make the server rules.

[AnimalPiano]

Make it based on region, not home picks worst server for the other team.

Why should Aus vs EU EVER be played on EU server of EU teams choice? That's easily a 450 ping difference (500-ish vs 50-sih). Now if that same match is played on USW it's 200 vs 200 (give or take about 75). USE? 300 vs 150. Now why should an aus player EVER have to play 500 vs 50 when the other two options are available? Well, one reason is clueless admins, such as yours.

Your server rules by region are fine. Don't know why the early matches don't have that rule-set.