View Full Version : Your lifesteal choice
Stinkpickle
10-11-2009, 07:17 PM
Depending on your character obviously, but lets here what lifesteal the community chooses to use with who and why.
Personally, I use Vamp aura most of the time, however Elder Parasite seems appealing on Madman.
Elder Parasite I will get on Chronos, but Madman doesn't have the HP to support it. Whispering Helm beats Abyssal Skull nine times out of ten and you really only will be getting the latter if you're a hero like Accursed. Symbol of Rage is very pricey for what it gives but can be a nice luxury item to get if the game starts dragging into the point where you have level 25s on all sides slogging it out, otherwise the money is far better spent elsewhere.
:)
WindRaven
10-11-2009, 08:48 PM
I don't get abyssal skull unless I need auras for some reason, or I need additional lifesteal over what I have.
Elder parasite is for attack speed (such as puppet).
Everything else, whispering helm.
DenyTheTruth
10-11-2009, 10:22 PM
Most of the heroes I get that would need life steal also need attack speed so I almost always go Eldar Parasite.
Sukari
10-11-2009, 10:30 PM
Mr. Warbeast = Abyssal Skull, especially early :)
Tripwyr
10-11-2009, 10:45 PM
Eldar Parasite is a double edged blade. The damage it forces you to take is insane, so it is best partnered with an item like Shrunken Head. Without the skull, you'll get stunned and killed very quickly.
I don't get lifesteal at all on most heroes. The benefit it grants is very low unless you already have a lot of damage. Lifetube for 25+ less gold grants more lane staying ability. Late game, the lifesteal simply isn't worth it when similarly priced items will end the fight faster, preventing the need for lifesteal.
Don't get me wrong, lifesteal is good for some heroes. For most; however, it is not.
Notable heroes who usually get lifesteal are Moonqueen, Chronos, and Pestilence. Sometimes Hammerstorm depending on how you build him.
DenyTheTruth
10-11-2009, 11:00 PM
Eldar Parasite is a double edged blade. The damage it forces you to take is insane, so it is best partnered with an item like Abyssal Skull. Without the skull, you'll get stunned and killed very quickly.
Could you elaborate why the eldar + skull is a good idea? I'm afraid I don't understand the logic there.
I don't get lifesteal at all on most heroes. The benefit it grants is very low unless you already have a lot of damage. Lifetube for 25+ less gold grants more lane staying ability. Late game, the lifesteal simply isn't worth it when similarly priced items will end the fight faster, preventing the need for lifesteal.
Don't get me wrong, lifesteal is good for some heroes. For most; however, it is not.
Agreed. Early game you attack too slowly and do too little damage. Mid-game it's nice but late game, unless you have crazy attack speed and damage it's not going to do much.
Notable heroes who usually get lifesteal are Moonqueen, Chronos, and Pestilence. Sometimes Hammerstorm depending on how you build him.
It's important to note that Moon Queen does not get the life steal off of her bounces (unless this has changed). The animation used to show it doing that. I don't know if it does now.
Hammerstorm with enhanced marchers and Eldar is ridiculous. Shrunken head will let you finish your attacks, too.
Llama
10-11-2009, 11:12 PM
Hammerstorm with enhanced marchers and Eldar is ridiculous. Shrunken head will let you finish your attacks, too. Agreed, you get it for the AS rather than the lifesteal though, as combined with insanatarious and shrunken head you can do some serious damage.
Imo, the only reason for moon queen to get lifesteal is to stack ancients, else its not that useful unless you manage to get a symbol of rage.
Lifesteal is overrated in pubs really, in all the comp HoN games I've seen only one MQ that bothered getting it. Damage and health are much better options early and mid. However if you do get one, abyssal is for warbeast and supports only imo, HotD is a better choice for dps heroes
Tripwyr
10-11-2009, 11:33 PM
Could you elaborate why the eldar + skull is a good idea? I'm afraid I don't understand the logic there.
Simply because it makes you immune to stun. By making yourself immune to stun you can dish out the damage that you intended when you activated eldar. Without skull, they will just stun and destroy you when you activate it.
It's important to note that Moon Queen does not get the life steal off of her bounces (unless this has changed). The animation used to show it doing that. I don't know if it does now.
I know it doesn't proc from bounces. It is taken on Moon Queen because her farming capability combined with her ability to obtain kills easily makes her core build very extensive. Specifically: Bottle(opt.) -> Slash -> Geometer's -> Wingbow -> Whispering <-> Shrunken Head -> Symbol of Rage.
This for a long time has been the core build on Moon queen, with the exception of Geometer's Bane being added after the revamp. The reasoning behind this is that her multi-strike scales extremely well, so we build her for staying power. Since she can farm very well, she can afford all of this very easily. Geometer's is taken for damage and the dispel, often highly underrated. Most people think Geometer's is only good for MS and illusions, this is not at all true.
Next she gets Wingbow so that she evades at 30% in addition to giving her attack speed. She now has a lot of damage and can tank well with Wingbow, we now get Whispering because the effect of lifesteal is devastating to her now outstanding lasting power. Her only weakness now is stuns, for that we get Shrunken Head. When Shrunken head is active she will not die unless focused by 3-5 people. What do you do to fix this? Symbol of Rage. With Shrunken Head and Symbol of Rage, Moon queen can not die. Her multistrikes will kill the entire team while she remains above 90%.
Why don't I just write a mini-guide, wtf. In short, while her multistrikes don't steal life, lifesteal is still part of the core build on Moonqueen after Wingbow + Geo's bane.
Simply because it makes you immune to stun. By making yourself immune to stun you can dish out the damage that you intended when you activated eldar. Without skull, they will just stun and destroy you when you activate it.
Do you mean the Shrunken Head? That has the Avatar ability. The Abyssal Skull is just a port of Vladmir's Offering.
Shadowcamsy
10-12-2009, 12:38 AM
I get a lifesteal on 2 heroes, Maliken and Hammerstorm, even then only when I've finished their core items and have over 200 damage.
Heridshire
10-12-2009, 07:24 AM
Yeah, I have not much to add.
Lifesteal can be useless if you do not have damage enough. However any heroes that benefit from critical strikes should have it, as Swiftblade or Puppet Master.
However, it can really make the difference when you go jungle after a teamfight, or when you get into a direct fight against other dps hero. It's not that it is necessarily most of times useless, its just that it's not essential, maybe secondary.
Then, answering the original question, I always go for Whispering Helm. When I have nothing else to spend money, I upgrade it to Symbol of Rage. Abyssal Skull seems so useless since I can have Lifesteal and others orb effects, and never used Elder Parasite; i just don't like the cost-benefit. Works well on Chronos and other attack speed lacking heroes.
k1desu
10-12-2009, 07:27 AM
whispering helm, nearly always.
turn it into symbol and youre fine.
elder parasite on carries is good.
ShadowsCrush
10-12-2009, 10:42 AM
Whispering Helm is usually an incredibly strong choice, being able to dominate a creep and use it to scout or stun or lend an aura is an incredible asset, its a shame most people don't have the micro to pull it off most of them time.
DenyTheTruth
10-12-2009, 11:52 AM
Simply because it makes you immune to stun. By making yourself immune to stun you can dish out the damage that you intended when you activated eldar. Without skull, they will just stun and destroy you when you activate it.
I think you meant to say shrunken head instead of abyssal skull. Right?
I know it doesn't proc from bounces. It is taken on Moon Queen because her farming capability combined with her ability to obtain kills easily makes her core build very extensive. Specifically: Bottle(opt.) -> Slash -> Geometer's -> Wingbow -> Whispering <-> Shrunken Head -> Symbol of Rage.
You know that, and I know that, but I've seen people who didn't know that.
So to all of you who didn't know: It does NOT proc on bounces. Only on the initial hit.
Blaat
10-12-2009, 12:06 PM
Abyssal Skull only on Warbeast, and on the Ursa Port once it comes out (maybe not if his swipes stack with Whispering Helm).
Elder Parasite on Chronos
All other times Whispering Helm --> Symbol of Rage IF I am taking lifesteal
Tripwyr
10-12-2009, 12:36 PM
I think you meant to say shrunken head instead of abyssal skull. Right?
Ya, I meant Shrunken head. I always mix them up.
evotech
10-12-2009, 12:37 PM
I get whispering helm on most melee heroes afte ri got a respectabel amount of damage and attack speed items
Valonsire
10-12-2009, 02:28 PM
does madman need lifesteal? and if so, which one?
It's useful to get in the later game. Generally you should get Whispering Helm as by that point you can rely on your ulti or other items for attack speed and move speed. You don't need the extra damage-taken you'll get from the activatable.
TreeHorse
10-12-2009, 02:55 PM
does madman need lifesteal? and if so, which one?
Whispering Helm is the choice for Mad IMO. Get yourself a minotaur and chain stun.
So to all of you who didn't know: It does NOT proc on bounces. Only on the initial hit.
I knew that, but I always thought that with Symbol of Rage activated, it counts every bounce. Is that right?
TreeHorse
10-12-2009, 05:19 PM
I knew that, but I always thought that with Symbol of Rage activated, it counts every bounce. Is that right?
No, that was a programming glitch in DOTA. The bonus % from the activate ability of Satanic was incorrectly applied to Luna's bounces as well as the main attack. It was fixed in 6.57 or something like that.
Unless Symbol is bugged too. =/
No, that was a programming glitch in DOTA. The bonus % from the activate ability of Satanic was incorrectly applied to Luna's bounces as well as the main attack. It was fixed in 6.57 or something like that.
Unless Symbol is bugged too. =/
Thanks, I could have tested it but you know.. I'm lazy bastard and I was alone so I wanted to talk to someone :P
IDK how it is working here, haven't play MQ in HoN to the point where I would be able to buy it :) But I played cca 15 DOTA games when my friends started with it few years ago and I was "cheating" by reading guides, it's stuck in the back of my brain from back then ;) BTW it's funny how I never really liked DOTA and how much I like HoN now.
does lifesteal include all your stacked damage items or is it just on your base damage?
Over9000
10-12-2009, 07:11 PM
I always get my Wildsoul an Abyssal Skull after giving my bear a Mock of Brilliance, this tends to help the survivability of my bear since it gets FF'd a lot (i hang behind in the trees unless i know it's safe) and allows for my Mock to do more dmg since the bear can hang around longer.
Still gotta try getting a Brutalizer on the bear though, that'd just be mean ;-)
`aNarchy
10-12-2009, 07:15 PM
Whispering Helm or Elder Parasite, always. Leave the Abyssal Skull for a support char to buy. Those of you nay-sayers about lifesteal clearly are screwing up somewhere. Life steal is awesome, and synergizes well with items like Riftshards/Geometer's, as well as anything that increases attack speed. It's a must for most carries.
TheSex
10-12-2009, 10:04 PM
I like the skull's +15% damage. =/
Kralnor
10-13-2009, 07:10 PM
If it's going to be a long game, I like Whispering Helm on Madman after he has farmed a major damage item or two. The added survivability is very noticeable when he pops his ulti. Of course, if you're facing a lot of disablers (which is mostly the case), Shrunken Head is probably superior.
PoopyDesires
10-13-2009, 07:17 PM
Symbol of Rage is vastly overesitmated by nubs and vastly underestimated by pros.
Usually it's fail for most heroes, but I consider it absolutely core for Maliken.
Dederd
10-13-2009, 09:10 PM
why is abyssal skull considered inferior to whispering helm?
Because Abyssal skull only starts giving you more damage than Whispering Helm when you average 133 damage (not including +damage items IIRC), cannot be later changed into Symbol of Rage and, perhaps most importantly, cannot be used to control creeps - a highly underrated and underused ability which can get you some pretty nasty creeps.
Madlobster
10-14-2009, 03:19 AM
I like elder parasite, but the domination from helm is also very good if you want to forest early.
noodle0117
10-15-2009, 11:19 AM
does madman need lifesteal? and if so, which one?
whispering helm
abyssal skull has nice mana regen and aura, but whispering helm makes a solid early-mid game.
eldar parasite is unneeded, because madman already has one of the fastest attack speeds out of all heroes (scout is 1# with his invis, nymph might also be fast as well)